Anyone starting to get worried about  the current US (and world-wide) fiscial problems?  I was reading the financial news and the Dow is down about 600-650 points to below 9,000 and the US debt clock ran out of numbers (10.2 trillion or so now).

Here's hoping to a fast recovery.  Too bad I don't have $10K to put into the markets now, in a few years they will probably rebound and make up for everything lost.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I think closer to 8-10 years befor we pull out of this one, and it's gonna take some sacrifices. Hopefully those people at the top realize they cannot keep going this way or china is going to own the U.S.

Life is hard, but what a ride.

"Hopefully those people at the top realize they cannot keep going this way or china is going to own the U.S."

China is also havng problems both with its stock market, and with citizens ability to make purchases.  A huge problem that has been brewing in China for a long time is that the government was subsidizing the cost of gas, but can no longer afford to do it.  The people in China can't afford to purchase gas at the unsubsidized price.

The U.S.A continues to borrow money from them over and over to fund our get it now pay later lifestyle. How long is China and others going to keep lending us money? How much deeper do we want to get in debt?

Life is hard, but what a ride.

I think China recently started telling its banks to stop lending the US money.  I'm not sure if they started again or not.

Quote - How much deeper do we want to get in debt?

The people don't want anymore debt I think.  Both isles of congress are probably thinking there is a magical fairy fund that will suddenly appear to cover any amount of borrowing they do.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - I think China recently started telling its banks to stop lending the US money.  I'm not sure if they started again or not.

Quote - How much deeper do we want to get in debt?

The people don't want anymore debt I think.  Both isles of congress are probably thinking there is a magical fairy fund that will suddenly appear to cover any amount of borrowing they do.

I do hope they have cut us off, It's too big a bargaining chip in our political system when we owe them so much and continue to rely on them to finance us.

I don't want any more debt, and am willing to tighten my belt and pay higher taxes or whatever it takes, but.... I WANT RESULTS!!!!... not just promises.

Life is hard, but what a ride.

"Hopefully those people at the top realize they cannot keep going this way or china is going to own the U.S."

To be honest, it's not only those people at the top, it's most people in the US living in debt and spending money they don't have. A lot of Americans have the habit of keep on spending money they don't have, even if they're in debt. Average Joe and the people at the top have pretty much the same attitude, borrow money and then borrow some more money to pay off your debts. It's been going on for many years so it will probably take many years to get it all sorted out, if the US will not go completely bankrupt before that.

Hang on.... the US has been bankrupt for decades already, the whole world knew that, but finally the US has realized it too......

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Well I can say I am not one of those.  I owe not one red cent to anyone, never buy anything if I don't have the money to pay for it. So here's one American who say's we can pull out if we want to and regardless the U.S.A. still generates more financially than any other country or group of contries in the world. So count the U.S. out and it'll come back and bite your a$$

Life is hard, but what a ride.

Stepson, from what I've been hearing recently raising or lowering taxes generally don't help federal revenuse that much.  Going back to 1950 or so, no matter what the tax rate, the revenues have usually hovered between 16-20% of the GDP.  So if you want to increase how much the government is making, the least political way to do it is to have a large GDP growth.

Another thing is, it is unlikely they'd raise taxes on you directly.  What would happen is corperate and capital gains taxes would be increased (which is kind of silly considering how much some sectors of the economy need to increase their capital right now).  Then the big businesses who don't want to see their profits go down will pass as much of the taxes on to you the consumer.

For example you'd probably be familar with, they could hypothetically raise gas taxes on the corperate level.  Then the oil CEOs would charge more money for gas.  Then it would cost more not only to fill your gas tank but the gas tank of everything you buy and has to be shipped as well.  Then all those costs would go up.  Then you'd spend less and drive less because prices are shooting back all over.  However because you are doing that, the corperations who sell you gas and goods will make less money and in return pay less taxes.  Thus tax reciepts tend to stabilize in that 16-20% range.

I'm not sure it will work, but you could in theory cut all federal taxes on income and business down to 1%... which is what we were promised when the constitution was amended to allow for an income tax, and still get the same results if you keep them at the current rates or higher.  In theory because you suddenly had 32%-49% of your income back with all those direct and hidden taxes gone, you'd be able to save more and spend more.  Those savings would boost businesses' profits and allow them to invest more, produce more, and create more jobs and wealth.  As an added beneift, with all that extra money you could either put your kids into private schools, save for college, or be a stay at home parent because one spouse isn't needed to work to just pay off the taxes and home school the children.  Any of these would benefit how much education our society has and with all those educated kids going out into the workforce, they'll do more productive and valuable work which would contribute to the GPD and offset the reduced taxes.

Now I'm not saying we can cut taxes to 1% because there is probably a pratical limit to how far that range works, but in general the principle should work.  Now you might have to do it with a few strings attached like requiring businesses who take the lower taxes to pass the savings on to the consumer dollar for dollar, but I don't think it'd take too much for it to work.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Well whatever they need to do I wish they would get it done. I understand it comes down to what we produce in the country each year minus what we consume. (thats very simplistic I know.) Where's George Stephanopolis these days?

This country produces a hell of alot each year and there is no damn reason we should be in this mess, my take on this whole mess is it comes down to greed and some greedy pukes who don't give a sh$t about this country and the people who live and die for it. But hopefully if there is enough unrest with the voters this goverment will get its ass in gear........or maybe not.

Everybody loves to hate Rome don't they?

Life is hard, but what a ride.

This didn't just happen. It's all about "erasing" the social progress of the 20th century and reverse Robin Hood, and everything is right on schedule.

No, I don't expect a lot of folks here to believe that, but go back and read what some were writing in the extremist right-wing rags a decade or two and so ago when hardly anyone outside of their ranks was paying any attention, and you'll see what I mean.

It's all going according to plan.

I cashed out most of my 401k last year when the housing bubble burst and I lost my job due to having a stroke. It was about worth $15,000 which a tidy sum went to taxes and I had to pay IRS the rest leaving me with $10000 after taxes. My workplace didn't offer insurance of any kind, So I'm one of those 45 million uninsured Americans that you always hear about.

I got turned down for SSI today. I'm at a negative 64 dollars at the bank and my electrical bill is unpaid. My money is gone and my gas tank is virtually empty. I can't afford my co-pay for insulin. I had a second stroke (a little one last month) that messed up my right side this time. I can't hand write for spit and I'm clumsy on that side.

If I turn up missing next month, it will because I didn't survive what life is throwing at me.

I hate to sound so bleak, but I have to be realistic about my survival chances. I'll fight to the bitter end. However--I never it so close before me.

The last of my money disappeared out of my 401k when the stock market tumbled down, so my dire emergency reserve is gone before I even had a chance to cash it out!

Without even resources (like blood--Diabetics aren't allow to give) to sell, I don't have a clue what to do. I still have food stamps, but after next week...with out insulin, I cannot eat food without dying.

I'm screwed like never before. At least I have a phone, and will make lots of calls tomorrow, to see if I can get some kind of help. America is broken and needs fixing,IMO.  I may not survive to see if it ever gets fixed

Joel G Lane

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Quote - This didn't just happen. It's all about "erasing" the social progress of the 20th century and reverse Robin Hood, and everything is right on schedule.

No, I don't expect a lot of folks here to believe that, but go back and read what some were writing in the extremist right-wing rags a decade or two and so ago when hardly anyone outside of their ranks was paying any attention, and you'll see what I mean.

It's all going according to plan.

Any links?

I sort of agree with you.  Not sure if the conspiracy is absolutely true or we just have idiots running the country (they sure act like idiots).  If the idea is to push the world closer to armageddon so that Jeebus returns, then, yes, this is their plan in my mind.  Can't have armageddon in a futurely optimistic world with continual scientific and technical advances.  Destroy the cheerleader, destroy the world.

Either way, I'm up for an ole fashioned guillotine party any time now.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - I cashed out most of my 401k last year when the housing bubble burst and I lost my job due to having a stroke. It was about worth $15,000 which a tidy sum went to taxes and I had to pay IRS the rest leaving me with $10000 after taxes. My workplace didn't offer insurance of any kind, So I'm one of those 45 million uninsured Americans that you always hear about.

I got turned down for SSI today. I'm at a negative 64 dollars at the bank and my electrical bill is unpaid. My money is gone and my gas tank is virtually empty. I can't afford my co-pay for insulin. I had a second stroke (a little one last month) that messed up my right side this time. I can't hand write for spit and I'm clumsy on that side.

If I turn up missing next month, it will because I didn't survive what life is throwing at me.

I hate to sound so bleak, but I have to be realistic about my survival chances. I'll fight to the bitter end. However--I never it so close before me.

The last of my money disappeared out of my 401k when the stock market tumbled down, so my dire emergency reserve is gone before I even had a chance to cash it out!

Without even resources (like blood--Diabetics aren't allow to give) to sell, I don't have a clue what to do. I still have food stamps, but after next week...with out insulin, I cannot eat food without dying.

I'm screwed like never before. At least I have a phone, and will make lots of calls tomorrow, to see if I can get some kind of help. America is broken and needs fixing,IMO.  I may not survive to see if it ever gets fixed

Joel G Lane

Wow man. Anyone living with you? You will need someone to take watch over you.  I am not sure if this could help but if you change your diet, you might be able to cure yourself of diabetes.
My search to find the truths in life lead me to some answers.

Take a look at this videos. Its a cure for cancer but they say it can also cure other illnesses because it helps the body to heal. I haven't tried it yet but I accepted it as common sense. Anyway, you can get these stuff in the supermarket.

If you take a look on one of the comments, one claim that someone with type 2 diabetes is already in remission. So might be wise to drop that guy a personal message and ask questions.

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

Quote - Any links?

It may be about some very cynical, ruthless and wealthy people fostering and using a particular type of "Christianity" as one of many tools to manipulate government and social policy, but it's not simply about trying to push the world closer to Armageddon.

That the extreme right has always been about consolidating wealth and power into a few private hands (and religious institutions, of course) should be obvious to anyone. Simply look at their history and their policies. That a perfect way to do that on a grand scale would be to dismantle as much of the power and influence of the federal government as possible while impoverishing the masses of people (so the rest of us will have to depend on the private wealth of our robber-baron slave masters and religious institutions to survive) should be just as obvious.

What may not so obvious is how it all fits together as they have become so skilled at sounding as if they are talking about one thing when they are actually talking about another.

Now it just may be that these folks never intended for things to go quite this far, but given various statements over the years, I think at least some of them did.

William Greider gave a pretty good summary of various ideological points on the right and their implications back in 2003. You may or may not agree with all of his conclusions, but it is certainly food for thought and a place to start: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030512/greider

Beyond that, you'd have to go back to transcripts of some of the actual speeches, and video and articles -- especially of the neocons, but also of some of those on the religious right -- to get a much better perspective, and those seem to be increasingly difficult to locate, at least on the web. I can't know why, but I am suspicious that it might be because certain powerful persons have begun to realize just how incriminating they are.

Here's a link -- clearly illustrating the genesis of this grand "right-wing conspiracy". :rolleyes:

Yep -- it's all goin' according to The Plan.  The folks that broke it, are now gonna fix it for us........and grab even more power in the process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL36nwCSYUM

If you prefer your news delivered in a more humorous vein, then here's the Saturday Night Live version of events (edited by NBC to remove some of the original references -- which is a story in and of itself).  It's also quite shocking that SNL, of all parties, put this skit on the air in the first place:

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/c-span-bailout/727521/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/10/the-mortgage-me.html

Yep -- it's those dirty, filthy -- not to mention conspiratorial -- right-wingers at it again.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - I cashed out most of my 401k last year when the housing bubble burst and I lost my job due to having a stroke. It was about worth $15,000 which a tidy sum went to taxes and I had to pay IRS the rest leaving me with $10000 after taxes. My workplace didn't offer insurance of any kind, So I'm one of those 45 million uninsured Americans that you always hear about.

I got turned down for SSI today. I'm at a negative 64 dollars at the bank and my electrical bill is unpaid. My money is gone and my gas tank is virtually empty. I can't afford my co-pay for insulin. I had a second stroke (a little one last month) that messed up my right side this time. I can't hand write for spit and I'm clumsy on that side.

If I turn up missing next month, it will because I didn't survive what life is throwing at me.

I hate to sound so bleak, but I have to be realistic about my survival chances. I'll fight to the bitter end. However--I never it so close before me.

The last of my money disappeared out of my 401k when the stock market tumbled down, so my dire emergency reserve is gone before I even had a chance to cash it out!

Without even resources (like blood--Diabetics aren't allow to give) to sell, I don't have a clue what to do. I still have food stamps, but after next week...with out insulin, I cannot eat food without dying.

I'm screwed like never before. At least I have a phone, and will make lots of calls tomorrow, to see if I can get some kind of help. America is broken and needs fixing,IMO.  I may not survive to see if it ever gets fixed

Joel G Lane

Yes -- I am very sorry to hear this.  Do you have anyone to help?  Family?  Friends?  There are also private charities that will help.

It's not just America that needs fixing.  It's the entire earth.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Attached Link: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=518

Joel,

There is this article that says cinnamon can be a substitute for insulin. Check out the link above and see if you would consider. Googling the rest will give you more answers.

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

Correction: the phrase "dismantle as much of the power and influence of the federal government as possible" should have been, "dismantle as much of the regulatory power and influence of the federal government as possible"

Better watch out -- because Big Conspiracy is watchin' you:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

It's a great link to visit, if you are obsessed with space aliens, conspiracy theories, etc., etc.......

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Xeno, I am not going to get into another pointless shouting match with you. Ridicule, along with calling folks "conspiracy theorists" (and the Bush administration's official story of what happened on 9/11 is a conspiracy theory by the way) are vapid tactics straight out of the right-wing's playbook, and I think you are soon going to discover such tactics are wearing thinner and thinner.

That you disagree with me, and feel compelled to say so, ought to go without saying. Frankly, I consider it a badge of honor. The less often you agree with me the better I feel about my own judgments.

And that you can cherry pick this or that to try to make a point is not too surprising either, and in any case, I was not speaking specifically of Democrats and Republicans, nor was I implying that everyone who has participated in recent political trends was fully aware of their potential implications, so you are kinda squandering your effort here.

Yes, there is blame to go around, and many politicians, Democrats included -- (who have moved quite a bit to the right on economic matters in the last few decades in case you hadn't noticed) -- have been cowardly, duplicitous, greedy, and short-sighted, but I will be quite satisfied to challenge serious people to look at the weight of the evidence and come to their own conclusions.

Wear any badges that you like.  The facts of the situation -- as in that Youtube video -- speak for themselves.

There's a simple operative principle in such cases:  Follow The Money.  Look to see who benefited from this situation.  Look to see who the top recipients of the sub-prime mortgage money piggy-banks known as "Freddie Mac" and "Fannie Mae" were.  No need to dig for deep, dark motives held by a hidden right-wing cabal.

Sure: let people come to their own conclusions.  If they are intellectually honest: the Money points the way for them.  There's not much of a mystery here.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-_HlpZ8azA

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Yes, greed and accumulation of wealth are the culprits here.  That's why I'm grinding and sharpening the guillotine here.  I mean, Luld took away 483 million dollars in seven years.  My god, we could give every person in this country (300 million) a dollar of this salary given to ONE individual.  And he's small fish compared to Warren Buffet and their ilk with their multi-Billion dollar assets.  The less-than-three week CEO of another lending corporation took away 19 million just for 'being there'.   Hurrah!  Do I get 19 million for 'being there' for that short a time?  No.  Unfair so far to the extreme it is ludicrous.

Who are we kidding here?  The ultra-elite rich exist and they run the show - the entire show of the entire planet.  While billions squaller they have dozens of estates, an airport of private airplanes, security to rival a national army, and power to sink any nation (see, even the USA in the past months).  Time to wrest such accumulation and power from the hands of the very few and put it into the hands of the many (and not in a socialist or communistic way, by the way).  Forced economic equality is bad, but extreme economic inequality is just as bad - and the latter has precedence from all of history.  Any time the few aristrocratic (see France or England or Russia or Rome or any other similar system) have all of the wealth, the majority populous suffers.  Remember that while the aristrocracy in France dined on the finest of every beverage and food and service and product and lavished in the penultimate luxury, the rest of populace was forced to eat stale bread and grass and live in muck.  How close are we to this?  I don't think we're far from it if the current situation continues.

Pierre, it is time to reclaim our rights to happiness, equality, and liberty.  It may take much blood to do so, unfortunately.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I say its time to... OUTSOURCE CONGRESS!! Joel, It's a common practice to get turned down when appling or SSI. Don't give up!! There is an appeal process, resubmit the paperwork (I know it's a pain). Let them know you are NOT gonna give up and go away. That's what they want you to do.

 Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!  ; )

Quote - There's a simple operative principle in such cases:  Follow The Money.

Quote - No need to dig for deep, dark motives held by a hidden right-wing cabal.

Xeno, sometimes you are right. As Greider points out, there has been nothing hidden about it. As I said, simply look at their history and their policies. Even Lee Atwater, former RNC chairman and Karl Rove mentor, apologized on his death-bed for some of what he had hoisted upon modern American politics, and confessed that Reagan and the right-wing movement was about not much more but grabbing all you could get while the getting was good:

"My illness helped me to see that what was missing in society is what was missing in me: a little heart, a lot of brotherhood. The '80s were about acquiring — acquiring wealth, power, prestige. I know. I acquired more wealth, power, and prestige than most. But you can acquire all you want and still feel empty. What power wouldn't I trade for a little more time with my family? What price wouldn't I pay for an evening with friends? It took a deadly illness to put me eye to eye with that truth, but it is a truth that the country, caught up in its ruthless ambitions and moral decay, can learn on my dime. I don't know who will lead us through the '90s, but they must be made to speak to this spiritual vacuum at the heart of American society, this tumor of the soul."

That many Democrats have gradually fallen ill over the last couple of decades due to the same disease doesn't score you very many points in my playbook.

I agree with kuroyume0161, it's time to throw them down, it will happen some day, history shows us this. I swear if I had some of those fu$ks in front of me now I would gleefully beat them to an unrecognizable bloody pulp. Death is too good for them.

Life is hard, but what a ride.

The Republicans have controlled the White House 20 of the last 28 years, and the Congress, 12 of the last 14. There were 700 lobbyists in D.C. when Reagan came to office and most regulatory bills were written and sponsored by legislators. Today there are over 30,000 lobbyists in D.C. and most "regulatory" bills are written or sponsored by corporate lobbyists. As George Will and some other conservatives have pointed out, the Republicans have spent far more in 20 years than the Democrats had in the previous 50. The first and only bills Dubya vetoed since becoming president was after the Democrats came to power in 2006, and since then the Republicans, while quick to point out how Democrats can't get very much done, have broken all previous records for filibusters.

So, Xeno, tell us all again how everything that has happened is the fault of "liberal" Democrats.

Maybe this mess, can help straighten others out.....many have been spoiled for a long time and have learned nothing.....the government....well that is no longer for the people, by the people...

@ Owl--I appreciate the thoughts, but type 1 (Juvenile) Diabetes is NOT presently curable by any means. I'm a cash cow of the pharmacuetical  companies, so they have no urge to cure to cure most people.

No friends in town, or living family left. I'm on my own and have been all my life.

On the thread issue, I think that alpha's (Male or female) that want power are a greedy lot and take everything they can. Anyone who wants political power for itself, should be barred from from running, and we should conscript politicians from the general population with a draft, IMO. The drafted and tested conscripts of WW2 did a fine job with what they needed to do. We test conscripts to eliminate the untrained or mentally unstable or incapable of bearing up under the stress, and put them to work. It would be a real government OF the people and BY the people! LOLOLOLOLOL :lol:

It's just an odd thought, and I don't know if I'm completely serious serious, inspired by the Sprint commercial where the Firefighters take over congress and run the country better. LOL At this point, ANYONE might run the country better than politicians. :laugh:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Elected office should be a public service, as originally intended.  There was no plan for a permanent political class who would remain in office for decades.  It should be a penurious experience, with term limits, and one should be forbidden from profiting from the job before, during or after.  This would eliminate the showboats (you all know who they are and they infest both parties) from spending their entire lives directing the general populous who are obviously too ignorant or lazy to get about their own business.

Think about this for a minute.  60% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.  If I spend my money, I am careful to be sure I get good value.  If I spend your money, I'm not sure I care all that much about whether it is well spent.  Combine this with a cash circulation system sucking up funds from individuals, shipping it to Washington and handing it over to politicians who can send it back (reduced by their "expenses") to their districts to buy votes.  Sound efficient?

Subsidiarity.  This is a policy developed in the UK (under Thatcher) that basically said spend money as close to the populace that provides it.  Instead of the inverted pyramid we have where all the cash flows to the top for redistribution, the majority of funds should be collected and spent at the most local level possible.  Town, county, city, whatever.  Only a small amount should go on to the federal level for defense and national capital projects (like interstate highways).  If people who are directly accountable (and who the taxpayers see on the street every day) make the funding decisions, we'll get less pork and more local needs funded.

Actually a flat tax of 16% or so would provide the same funding, hit everyone equally hard, and ensure that everyone had a stake in how the collected taxes were spent.  As long as a majority makes no contribution, but decides how to spend, we are headed for continued trouble.  I highly recommend Atlas Shrugged to those re-distributionists on this thread.  There comes a point where those who work and contribute just give up when everything is taken from them.  The spiral from there looks like all the failed socialist economies of history (USSR, Pre-Capitalism China, Cuba, Nicaragua ... they're not hard to find if you look around).  If you tax something, you get less of it.  This is true of collective income as much as anything else.

Oh, and by the way, if you want to see where the current dilemma came from, it was Chris Dodd and Barney Frank using Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure massive loans were made to individuals who clearly would never be able to pay them back.  This monster, pushed to new heights by the Clinton administration (it has been headed by former Clinton cabinet members for 15 years) were REQUIRED BY STATUTE to back loans with no equity participation by the borrower and with no verification of income.  Very sound business practices.  As soon as the economy stumbled, defaults went through the roof and the securities issued by these "lenders" became worthless, taking the banking system to the brink.

So spare me the right or left wing conspiracies.  It was all done in daylight and the idiocy was there for all to see, complete with intermittant grandstanding by the collective genius of our Congress.

Hang on, its going to be a bumpy ride!

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

 But hey look on the bright side, Uncle George gave all of fine US Citizens (well most of the tax payers) a fine $600 check to help us out this year, Good Grief...

But after watching the stock market hemorrhage a few days ago, and listening to NPR radio and "The Sky Is falling" commentary all day...Hearing about the 80 year old woman that shot herself because her home was in foreclosure ... Then sit in front of the TV and watch the VP debates until I thought My head was gonna explode ... hearing more bad news from overseas stationed friends fighting in the big sand box... Gas is Up, Then Gas is down, OH NO the price of oil fell ...
Hmm, Great, more GOOD NEWS, We are implementing wage locks, after a 10% concession we "volunteered back" 6 months ago, Oh, and by the way, your health insurance is gonna double next quarter, you maintenance meds are now "Priority" listed and we will no longer cover them...

WTF is going on?! 

Who is running Corporation Earth anyway? 

I keep hearing "Just focus on the good" gimme a break!
We live in some seriously strange times...

I am saving all money for ammunition

Coffee anyone?

::: Pfftt :::

Sorry for the interruption , Carry On..

Whats bloody funny is in 2003 freddie may started doing what has happen sub prime trouble, even though bush is a brain dead numpty.
In 2003 he had a brain wave and fore saw what could happen with unrestricted lending and the republicans tried to bring in a law to put a stop to what freddie was doing.
The democrats said CRAP no such thing will happen and threw it out,
though 1 democrat has admitted that we made a mistake as we never realised this could happen.
So a democrat pressie and government are going to sort out the mess they made, just like over here Jesus Blair, and St Peter Brown are responsible for the financial meltdown in UK.
They wormed in with banks then in 97 said lend spend and chuck money about, so in the coming world recession other countries can weather it.
The UK cant as labour have destroyed our economy so for the next 2 to 5 years we will have mass unemployment and homeless peeps.
As always said the conservatives get thrown out and leave a rich economy behind, labour get in and bankrupt the  country, they get thrown out and conservatives save economy then thrown out.
Labour have left such a mess in this country that brown is printing money and spending money so as to leave the next conservative government with a major head ache.
After all Brown and Darling are so thick and stupid that Rupert Murdoch is playing them up as the 2 people who can save the stupid Americans, and the other cretin countries of the world from financial meltdown.
So the triumpherat of Jesus Blair, St Peter Brown and numpty Darling will go to America and show the yanks how to run an economy, what a laugh that is and the yanks will believe Rupert Murdoch about the 3 wise men above who will save america.
No wounder 90% yanks think they was kidnaped by flying saucers.

LOL left wing this, right wing that it cracks me up!  The number of people in this nation that are right and left wing zealots is very small. The average American could care less about right/left wing whining and want those they have elected to lead to work together for the good of the nation and for the people in it. When I hear the right/left wing spittle start I turn right off and let them go. All it proves to me when this shit starts is that these people who push this crap are only concerned about their own selfish agendas.

Sharen is right this government is no longer for the people and I know some people hate to hear this but it's our fault for letting this happen. The ideals that gave birth to this nation are gone, the very documents that grant us freedom are under attack daily by proponents from both sides of government. There is no such thing as free elections here if any other party other than the big two so much as raises its head it is black balled, taken to court to be removed from ballots, bared from debates and branded as "wacko" or you are told you've wasted your vote. And when the elections are over and the results do not please the either of the big two a federal court decides who won. How is this free elections when the will and the desires of the people are ignored? How are these free elections when there are only two candidates to choose from? Why are Americans so contented to continue to recycle the same old riff raff in selecting leadership?  Has it not become obvious that this isn't working? It takes a crisis of the magnitude we are facing for Americans to finally see that in a time of crisis those we elect are running around with their heads cut off? Damn it's time to stop whining that you can't change things and continue to settle for rubbish. The idea that wanting to clean out your government and change how it operates being "Anti-American" or committing treason  has to stop. The people in D.C. commit treason on a daily basis and this is acceptable???? If you say you love your country wouldn't you want to fight for it?

People need to get mad and stay mad and show those in DC we mean business. Our leaders know all too well that if they throw a bone to the people here and there and make things appear they are better people will shut up and forget. We can't do that anymore nor can we afford to do that anymore if we continue to go down this road the United States that gave my immigrant parents a new life, I grew up in, served in military service and have loved all my life will no longer be as it once was. I don't think enough people in this nation understand that the crisis we are facing is not over blown or will just pass away in a few days it's deadly serious this time because it's just not the states it's the world facing this. We need to force our leaders to work together and leave the partisan bullshit out of it and time for the mavericks, the changers, these people we think can walk on water, to do what they were sent to Washington to do.

If we sit back and not get involved we lose and I mean more involved and not  just that  feeling " I'm proud to be an American" one gets from voting and think they did their part. It takes calls, it take emails, it takes letters and it takes calling those we elect on the carpet for doing a shitty job. But I guess more people are going to have to loose their homes, their jobs, their health care and possibly their lives on a  personal level before Americans get into their thick skulls that there is indeed a major problem before they finally get angry enough to do something about it. As Klebnor said spare me the right wing, left wing bullshit and get to work!

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I guess the folks on the far right and left feel they can run down people because they are in the middle of the road, where the traffic is heaviest.  :lol: LOLOLOLOL I know that for a fact, being roadkill. LOL

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

 A few relevant :

• What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
  -Edward Langley, Artist (1928 - 1995)

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.-Thomas Jefferson

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free! -P.J. O’Rourke

I don’t make jokes… I just watch the government and report the facts. -Will Rogers

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-P.J. O’Rourke, Civil Libertarian*

Looking back historically, we're probably headed into another world war. World economies hit the bottom just before WW1 and WW2, so WW3 probably isnt too far behind.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Too bad all the countries we've, the US, have lent money to over the years haven't paid us back. Seems odd that so many folks hate Americans and yet are willing to take our money. I think the media is causing a lot of our woes. Freaking everyone out is making folks sell low just to get what money they can. I'm also pissed that folks who made bad decisions are getting bailed out. I had folks tell both me and my daughter that we could get awesome houses if we did declared income. We both decided to buy what we could afford, think they'll pay off my mortgage and readjust it? Hell no, we get to pay the same and folks who mad the poor decisions will probably be getting their mortgages and interest lowered. Seems like if you work for a living these days and try to do the right thing you get screwed. Don't get me wrong. I love my country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But sometimes the people in charge just lose their minds and screw it up for the working class. Sorry...rant over.

OUT, every last one of them. I don't care what wing their in, both sides fucked the world for personal gain. Off with their heads!!!!! Where do you find people not in the political group to vote for? Even our supreme court is politically motivated these days, run by whatever group can get the most members appointed, instead of actually protecting the constitution. Can we throw them all out? Who will step up for the job?  No more republicans or democrats please, they all went to the same school, go to the same church, help eachother to fuck the rest of us. The entire thing needs to be cleaned out, start with fresh new people. Anyone with ties to the former government banned from office. They should have to live like the poorest of us.

Life is hard, but what a ride.

Joel,

You are a stranger to me, my only memory of you are simple replies to my posts. But I am sending you a PM because my reply is too harsh for everyone to see.

Quote - @ Owl--I appreciate the thoughts, but type 1 (Juvenile) Diabetes is NOT presently curable by any means. I'm a cash cow of the pharmacuetical  companies, so they have no urge to cure to cure most people.

No friends in town, or living family left. I'm on my own and have been all my life.

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

Whew! I'm marking this thread with a language advisory.

 Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!  ; )

Quote - Looking back historically, we're probably headed into another world war. World economies hit the bottom just before WW1 and WW2, so WW3 probably isnt too far behind.

Shhhhh...

Don't think about that - although I agree that this is a very possible outcome.  Whenever internal systems fail, countries go on a hunt for external resources - i.e.: war.  I won't speculate further.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I think the mods from here should run the country.  How about JenX for president?

Life is hard, but what a ride.

Well I'm from Northern Europe and what has been happening in Iceland has left me completely speechless and worried. How can an entire country be facing a possible bankcrupsy? I mean it's absurd. I really feel sympathy for the people of Iceland who are now losing jobs and pensions, just because the system was out of control .Just because a select few were greedy everyone has to suffer.  Now I'm worried that this insanity will soon reach my country too and banks will start to collapse. I can't believe that politicians in my country still talk of privatacing healthcare. It's like trusting a system that is based on greed to take care of the sick people. Insanity I say..

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

Quote - Elected office should be a public service, as originally intended.  There was no plan for a permanent political class who would remain in office for decades.  It should be a penurious experience, with term limits, and one should be forbidden from profiting from the job before, during or after.  This would eliminate the showboats (you all know who they are and they infest both parties) from spending their entire lives directing the general populous who are obviously too ignorant or lazy to get about their own business.

There is already a term limit in the Constitution that limits the president to two 4 years terms.
Unless there is a big clamor to get something similar in the Contstitution for congressmen
and senators it won't happen.  And in a way this is taking away people's rights.  If somebody
likes their congressman or senator, what right does someone else have to forbid that
person from voting for someone they feel is serving their interests.

Quote -
Think about this for a minute.  60% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.

Actually the number is 40%.  And  I would assume a large percent of those are children too
young to work and the elderly who are no longer earning an income and live on a retirement
pension. 

Total income tax share (percentage)   Descending cumulative percentiles Total Top Top Top Top Top   1 percent 5 percent 10 percent 25 percent 50 percent (37) (38) (39) (40) (41) (42) 100.00 39.43 59.82 70.45 86.08 96.89
Quite right, I mistook the 60% who pay all for 60% paying none.  Still, 40% paying nothing makes the point just as well.  Also, the above table is from the IRS (check their website) and reflects 2006 tax collection.  Interesting, no?

The top 25% of taxpayers pay 86% of all federal income taxes.  The top 10% pays 70% !!!!!

One out of ten is paying for 7 out of ten.  Well, that seems fair ... although it might not if you are that one guy.  Of course, anyone who makes that much money is just lucky.  It couldn't be hard, diligent work.  So if he got his fat paycheck by luck, he should share with everyone else.  Eat the rich!

The two term limit for presidents is a relatively modern introduction, not ratified until 1951 (the 22nd amendment).  It was a response to the three terms of Franklin D. Roosevelt.  Two for that windbag would have been quite enough.  He actually set the groundwork for the current crisis, but that is a tale for another day.  And that limit works well - the principle should be extended.

There is no inalienable right to keep electing an overage, overweight, senile gassbag senator - Ted Kennedy notwithstanding.  You put your finger on the problem.  Everyone hates the congress as a collective group, but loves "their" congressman.  Since they are all such sterling individuals, there must be something in the water in the D of C that causes them to act like asses.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

From Peelo's tagline: *Now, tragedy... That's funny!

*I think we will have a lot of fun the coming time...

Now it's iceland's banks  that go bankrupt, but suppose the Swiss banks wll go bankrupt or the cayman islands (more likely), then we will have fun. Nothing is sure these days.

cynically yours,

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Quote - Since they are all such sterling individuals, there must be something in the water in the D of C that causes them to act like asses.

Yes, lobbyists. ;)

I don't agree about 'lucky'.  Bill Gates, recently the richest American (now Warren Buffett), made all of his money from founding and running Microsoft - not by winning a lottery or garnering an inheritance.

In the best of societies, the distribution of wealth would be more like this:

10% - low income or poor/homeless/no money (ideally none of the latter)
60% - middle income
30% - upper income
0% - ultra-rich elite (with incomes and assets that are a large portion of a nations GDP).

In reality, the distribution is more like this (from Survey of Consumer Finance):

50% - low income or poor/homeless/no money
40% - middle income
9% - upper income
1% - ultra-rich elite (with incomes and assets that are a large portion of a nations GDP).
And the disparity is increasing.  90% of the US population has about 30% of the wealth.  10% of the population has the other 70%!  (sharpens guillotine some more) ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - Actually a flat tax of 16% or so would provide the same funding, hit everyone equally hard, and ensure that everyone had a stake in how the collected taxes were spent.  As long as a majority makes no contribution, but decides how to spend, we are headed for continued trouble.  I highly recommend Atlas Shrugged to those re-distributionists on this thread.

Yeah, there is a simple solution to every problem, simple and wrong. Obviously, a flat tax would not hit everyone equally hard, but what's the point in explaining? The only people who cannot see that simply don't want to.

As for Atlas Shrugged, sure, you have to give people incentive to be productive, but guess who the producers are?

Think of it this way, if the pharoahs of ancient Egypt had suggested their people build pyramids, but to only build the top of it and assume the base would take care of itself, there never would've been much in the way of pyramids.

The producers are the workers, the inventors, etc., not just the big money at the top. Investors play their very important role and nothing against that, but there has never been a successful, sustainable economy built from the top down. Never. I repeat, never.

And that is what the right has been claiming it has been doing for a very long time now. And in that time, the US has gone from the biggest creditor nation in the world to the biggest debtor nation in the world, with the greatest disparity in income between rich and poor in the world, with more folks incarcerated per capita than any other nation in the world, with infant mortality and preventable death among the highest in the industrialized world, with a health care system that increasingly provides poorer health care than the rest of the industrialized world, with average expected lifespan falling in respect to Europe and Asia, etc., etc., ad nauseum. And now this economic thing.

Phew! The success of the right has quite a stench to it, and as far as sparing anyone right- and left-wing conspiracies, the truth of the matter is that the real left (as opposed to modern Democrats who are almost universally afraid to be called "liberal") has rarely if ever truly run the US, and certainly not lately.

Quote - From Peelo's tagline: *Now, tragedy... That's funny!
*I think we will have a lot of fun the coming time...

Now it's iceland's banks  that go bankrupt, but suppose the Swiss banks wll go bankrupt or the cayman islands (more likely), then we will have fun. Nothing is sure these days.

cynically yours,

Bopper.

It was funny when the cartoon character "Bender" said it (the context was  different).  But I'm not laughing now and hopefully my dumb tagline didn't insult anyone. I deleted it. If it did insult I am truly sorry. It was never my intention.
It is just insane to witness whats going on in the world. I guess it really is true what they say; that if  America sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. I live in a very small country and somehow it is now that I truly realize just how small and powerless my country is in a global scale. It's all up to USA and EU to decide what will happen next. Democracy or not. I have no say in what goes on at the global markets. I can vote but I have no say in how the banks operate.  And it seems the Banks and the big corporations have ruled the world more than the politicians. Or maybe the politicians were willing partners to crooked bankers. I never wanted to really believe that but that's how I feel right now.
In some ways it feels like the death of an ideology. Unregulated capitalism maybe at an end.

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

I'm sorry Peelo, I didn't mean to upset you, I wasn't very serious. A lot of people in Holland lost their savings on an iceland bank called Icesave, and although the dutch government has promised to pay their lost ( till €100,000.00) there is nothing funny about it. 
So I have to apologise, because it was in fact a funny tagline.

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

If we can't laugh at our pain, it will eat us alive until nothing is left.

Oh boy, is the next couple of months going to be funny for a lot of people. :blink:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

@JOELGLAINE --

You might want to check with your local pharmacist about the possibility of receiving your medications for free.  The pharmacutical companies have programs in place for people who can't afford necessary medications.  Your pharmacist should be able to give you the information as to forms to fill out, contact phone #'s, etc..  I personally know people who have been able to receive their medications for free for extended periods of time, directly from the pharmacutical manufacturers.  It's certainly worth a try.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I have to admit that I find the "right wing conspiracy" theories in regards to the current economic mess to be quite amusing.  But, unfortunately, the situation that we currently find ourselves in -- world-wide -- isn't amusing at all.

People need to understand that the genesis of this entire mess lies with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac at its rotten core.  Along with do-gooder enforced government policies aimed at FORCING banks to make loans which made no business sense whatsoever.  The banks and the lending institutions were told that if they didn't loan mortgage money to people who had no realistic way of repaying those loans: then those same banks and lending institutions faced possible criminal investigations from the Justice Department, along with having their executives hauled up before Congressional committees in front of TV cameras.  Lefty pols absolutely love that kind of thing -- it makes for a great show, and it provides fabulous scapegoats for them to publicly attack.  Thus deflecting the attention, along with the well-deserved heat -- away from where it squarely belongs -- on the lefty pols themselves.

They created this entire mess right from the get-go.  Barney Frank, Chis Dodd, et al.  Review that Youtube video again, please.  And can it with the cough cough.....uh......."oblique" conspiracy theories.  There is no "great right wing plan" to funnel money to religious institutions so as to take over the world -- or whatever the nebulous thinking of perinnial conspriacy buffs can come up with this time.

There was; however, a clear plan of attack in place to buy voting support by giving away free houses to people who couldn't afford them -- and to obtain a personal piggy bank to dip into for the purpose of lining the pockets of certain politicians of a particular political persuasion.

Hint: they weren't "right-wingers".

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - I'm sorry Peelo, I didn't mean to upset you, I wasn't very serious. A lot of people in Holland lost their savings on an iceland bank called Icesave, and although the dutch government has promised to pay their lost ( till €100,000.00) there is nothing funny about it. 
So I have to apologise, because it was in fact a funny tagline.

Bopper.

Yep.  This thing has roots which go all over the world.  And now we'll all get to 'enjoy' the fruits of it.

Actually, the entire thing started with Jimmy Carter.  And the rest is history.  A sordid history of regulating businesses by the yardstick of Political Correctness, as opposed to sound business judgments:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/the_financial_mess_how_we_got.html

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - @JOELGLAINE --

You might want to check with your local pharmacist about the possibility of receiving your medications for free.  The pharmacutical companies have programs in place for people who can't afford necessary medications.  Your pharmacist should be able to give you the information as to forms to fill out, contact phone #'s, etc..  I personally know people who have been able to receive their medications for free for extended periods of time, directly from the pharmacutical manufacturers.  It's certainly worth a try.

Nyah-ha-ha! I already picked up the aforementioned paperwork and will submit it next week when I see my new Primary care doctor. It'll take up to six weeks to go through. Hopefully in these tough economic times, they'll continue the program of free give aways.

I've had the paperwork for a month, but didn't have a PCP to renew my perscription, but that is a tale for another time. Damned health care.

The present woes are not a left-wing or right wing problem. It's a problem of both houses and greed and abuse of power on a slippery slope. It corroded their morals and ethics, and our confidence in them to do our job. When Carter mentioned the Middle East to be our number one strategic focus in his maliase speech it put our feet on the path of dismay, Reagan repealed the usury laws and deregulated the banks. Oops, there we go down that slippery slope. The Clintons filled their pockets, and George W has almost finished wrecking the country's financial system.

HOWEVER , they didn't act alone! Congress, Senate, and Lobbyists help push down that slippery slope to get their piece of the action. All in all, a really disgusting set of affairs.

I find myself mad as hell with these bozos. I agree with a previous poster when they mentioned sharpening gulliotine blades. Actions have consquences.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Planned event

Goal= No more Private banking insttutions

NOT a rightwing /religous conspiracy

Not a government "bailout" but government **takeover/elimination of private wealth
**

Take two hours  from your posering
 and learn where"money" really comes from
and all will be clear

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - I'm sorry Peelo, I didn't mean to upset you, I wasn't very serious. A lot of people in Holland lost their savings on an iceland bank called Icesave, and although the dutch government has promised to pay their lost ( till €100,000.00) there is nothing funny about it. 
So I have to apologise, because it was in fact a funny tagline.

Bopper.

It's Ok. I guess I made myself upset over my own tagline. It's bizarre that a small country like Iceland  allowed its Banks to take huge risks in global markets. I was listening to Icelands Prime minister Geir Haarde talk about the situation and it seemed like they had no idea what their banks were doing. Like a deck of cards the system came crashing down. I remain fearfull that soon it's our turn. Some of the people I talk to, paint apocalyptic visions of the future. The shift of power and wealth from the western world to the east is also worrying. Troubling times.

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

I was meaning to post on this again a little sooner, but it suddenly took off and I wanted to think a little before I responded.

Quote - SAMS3D

the government....well that is no longer for the people, by the people...

I'm starting to agree with that.  When we have one party infighting about letting people's votes count in the primaries and a special interest group with possible ties to not only one of the canidates but also perhaps the sup-prime market being raided for voter fraud in one state and alleged to do the same in 10 others, that's not a good sign.

Going back to the bailout, I think if anything it should have gone to the people who are getting hurt by the market crash and not the banks who made bad business decisions.

Don, there are so many lobbiest in washington now because companies are using the government to kneecap one another.  Microsoft had virtually no lobbiests in DC until they got taken to court for being a monopoly, then they had a ton of lobbiests.  A sad fact in life is the squeaky wheel often gets the grease, since washtington is giving out grease, there are now a ton of squeaky wheels.  You have to have people there to prevent your competitors from running amok.  Trim back on the frivilious lawsuits and keep the federal government restricted in its role and you'll see that decline. 

Klebnor, good post.  I tend to agree with what you said.  The only thing I'd like to say is while the actions for creating this mess were on public display, few people took note of it because certain people in the media weren't doing their job at the time.   However I think that this sudden crash took everyone by surprise.  During the conventions, no one was talking about the economy.  Next thing we know, two banks were bailed out and a third went bankrupt.

Quote - Paganartist

The ideals that gave birth to this nation are gone, the very documents that grant us freedom are under attack daily by proponents from both sides of government.

QFT.  As far as I can tell, only the libertarians really care that much about the constitution as intended these days and no one votes for them.  BTW good post.

Quote - The idea that wanting to clean out your government and change how it operates being "Anti-American" or committing treason  has to stop. The people in D.C. commit treason on a daily basis and this is acceptable???? If you say you love your country wouldn't you want to fight for it?

Treason was a crime invented by winners as an excuse for hanging losers.  :p

I think there are people who would fight for it, but the question is how.  Do you go to court?  Do you try to raise a few million dollars and run for congress?  Do you get the states to conviene a consitutional convention?  Do you get everyone you can peacefully together to march on washington and camp out at the mall until the government takes notice? 

To be honest, I don't think the current federal goverment is working.  I think it needs a more limited or at least a more well defined role and better people running it.  I mean why did the federal reserve let one bank go bankrupt one day and bail out another the next?  There's no rhyme or reason to it.  Why was the bail out filled with pork?  If it was so necessary, the people in congress should have voted for it as is.  Are we going to remain a capitalist economy, become socialist, or hover somewhere in between?  This needs to be spelled out and not done ad hoc by one manufactured crisis or another.  Plus there are a number of other issues aside from the economy that a lot of people are not happy with how they are settled, yet no progress can be made.

Synpainter, I like the quotes.

Sean, I've heard some people on the radio (not coast to coast AM either) saying that the end of the world is around the corner.  I guess the economy takes out america and the middle east decorates with a few mushroom clouds.  Comparitively speaking, WWIII doesn't sound so bad.

Kuroyume, I don't care who holds the wealth just so long as they earn it honestly.  If one guy makes 10 billion dollars without cheating anyone, good for him.  Another thing is that in the US, the poverty level is nearly 10K a year, so even someone who is just at that level is still relatively well off compared to places in africa and asia.

Xenophonz, I'm agreeing with you more than a bit.  Keep up the posting, it's saving me work.

  ;)

wolf, while I personally think that any sort of orchistrated government takeover is conspiracy theory bunk, after reading Goldberg's book, I think that the fascist elements in the US government (using Goldberg's definition) are quiet happy to use this as an excuse to usurp power.  In true capitalism, you'd have to let everything fail so people would learn from the failures and make sure not to repeat them.  Companies who made bad decisions and can't recover would be purged, and the more sound companies would remain.  Plus all those lost jobs would be absorbed into the better companies or new companies in the long run.  However in our semi-socialist state our government is jumping in when it shouldn't and I really don't think they can do any better.  I'll admit capitalism is very painful when there isn't charity, but if left alone it should work not too much unlike nature.  But if I recall what I heard about Smith's original intentions about capitalism, the goal was to create wealth and then the philanthropists would voluntarialy pass on that wealth to those in need. 

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I'm sorry, I can't agree with that.  In all of history, any time a few people held all of the wealth while the majority didn't, things were bad for the majority masses (Rome, Enlightenment France, Middle Ages, US/England during the Industrial Revolution, and so on).  The Roman people often had it very good.  They were at times fed and paid on a daily basis by the state (welfare).  On the other hand, their lives were often brutal and short (aside: sometimes the same held for the Emporer ;) ).

True, the US poverty is nothing compared to other places in the world but that isn't the fault of the US (directly or for the most part) - much of it in Africa, for instance, has to do with corrupt governments and tribal/faction in-fighting.  That's certainly not a news flash, now is it?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Kuroyume, I don't care who holds the wealth just so long as they earn it honestly.  If one guy makes 10 billion dollars without cheating anyone, good for him.  Another thing is that in the US, the poverty level is nearly 10K a year, so even someone who is just at that level is still relatively well off compared to places in africa and asia.

In my opinion it's very hard to makes 10 billion dollars without cheating anyone. The only person I know who achievde that, is J.K. Rowling and she has used magic.
It's not fair to compair US salaries with african or asian salaries, because in africa you don't have to pay US prices for food, electric or houses.

*But if I recall what I heard about Smith's original intentions about capitalism, the goal was to create wealth and then the philanthropists would voluntarialy pass on that wealth to those in need. 

*There is an important human property  that  avoid this miracle to happen, it's called greed. It's the same property that is the primal cause of  this financial crises.
That's why every country needs a controlling government who encourages people to be charitative by paying tax.

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Just one thing to point out and remember:

Capitalism  and Democracy AREN'T the same thing. China (for instant) is becoming capitalist ,but remaining Communist in government.  I heard one economist say that the present econic woes is because Capitalism bought out Democracy.

If that refers to America, it's not true. America is a Republic, NOT a Democracy. We elect Electors in the Electoral College to elect the president, Not one man:one vote, but more like one man's vote=.000001 Electoral  Vote, or there abouts. If the Elector follows the will of the people. Electors are Selected from the professional political class of Govenors, ex-Presidents, and Senators.

Democrats are on the left side of the house. Left-wing usually applies to Democrats.
Republicans are on the right side of the house. Right-wing usually applies to the Republicans.
John McCain is moderate Republican who is not representing himself as being a rIght-winger.
Barak Obama is called a Liberal (as is used in common parlance as meaning a left-winger) who appears to be a standard Democrat.
George W Bush is a standard Republican, leaning to the right-wing.

This is NOT an inditement of the American system, just my understanding of it, with my support of any candidates removed for clarity of explaination.  We need to use the terms with clarity in these tough times. Language is the only seperating thing that prevents us from understanding each other. :laugh:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Well, you sure made your point!

Bopper.

(edited: after seeing four of the same posts.)

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Mysql Errors made my point! :lol: I deleted the quintuple posts.  To much freedom of speech, I guess when it duplicates one post to an army of clones.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

kuroyume, I don't disagree that when there is too much power and wealth concentrated at the top and the masses are subjected to terrible living conditions that things need to change.  However I don't think it is a good thing for the people to become heavily dependant on the state for all aspects of their lives; I see that as a form of slavery.  You see that a little in politics from time to time when someone accuses the other of threatening to take away SSI.  A number of people are completely dependant on that government check every month and they are scared about what will happen if it goes away.

bopper, I can't remember his name but there is one guy who made a billion or two honestly.  It's difficult, but not imposible to pull off.  Yes there is greed and some people won't give back, but if you can find an honest person and let him grow his wealth in a way that lets him stay honest, he will give it back.  Just because there is greed doesn't mean there isn't charity.

Joel, yeah that's pretty much how the american system is supposed to be.  Though I'm not sure how electors are appointed.  I know it has to do something with the short ballot system we use but can't remember much more than that.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - Xenophonz, I'm agreeing with you more than a bit.  Keep up the posting, it's saving me work.

  ;)

Thanks. 

People can say what they like about this situation.  Unless if one attempts to totally re-write recent history (which the Dem pols in Congress are now desperately attempting to do) -- the fact remains that the folks who pushed for; threatened lending institutions over; defended against attempted regulatory actions; and received huge political contributions from the whole sub-prime mortgage industry are all sittin' solidly on the left side of the  isle.

As that Saturday Night Live skit so kindly mentions -- it was the hated GWB himself who made an attempt to reign in the abuses going on at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  And furthermore,  as that Youtube video of old C-SPAN footage shows: it was a series of big-name Dems who loudly insisted to everyone that there "weren't any problems here".......while their opponents (including one man named McCain) made dire predictions of a potential economic disaster in the making.

Tell me -- who was 100% right about the dangers of the sub-prime mortgage situation back during the regulatory debates of 2003 / 2004?  And who was greedy and self-serving at the time?  And who is it that now wants to tar their political opponents with the blame for what THEY, themselves did?

Furthermore -- who are the people like the Sandlers -- whom many people had never even heard of prior to that Saturday Night Live skit?  The Sandlers are a couple of gigantic crooks, who made billions selling worthless sub-prime mortgage accounts as securities to Wachovia Bank -- which has since then brought Wachovia Bank crashing down.  The Sandlers also happen to be gigantic leftist contributors, in the mould of Geroge Soros.  They've given millions to organzations such as Moveon.org, Air America, and other radical left-wing groups and causes.  Heh -- they live in San Francisco -- (appropriate).

For whatever reasons, many people have the idea that Wall Street is a hotbed of political Republicanism and conservatism.  I hate to spoil people's comfortable delusions (actually I don't ) -- but it ain't.  Wall Street happens to be filled with all sorts of political types -- and solid, radicalized left-wingers roost like crows in the Halls Of Power and in the board rooms on Wall Street every bit as much as they do in Washington, D.C..  They aren't all a bunch of conservatives on Wall Street, folks.  The Wall Street Journal is a conservative-leaning newspaper, sure.  But Warren Buffet and others like him aren't exactly political conservatives..........and many of them are solid Democrat operatives & contributors.  So don't define "greedy Wall Street" types as a bunch of Republican conservatives.  They aren't.

Try to blame Ronald Reagan's policies all that you like  - this thing is a Democrat mess from start-to-finish, from top-to-bottom.

My main criticism directed at the Republicans -- as always -- is that too many of them are political wimps: without the courage to stand up for their convictions.  For that, many of them deserve the shame of cowards.  But they were right back in 2003 / 2004.  Too bad they didn't have the spine that they needed at the time to make it stick.

For whatever it's worth, they can now take morbid satisfaction in having been proven right.  Although the mainstream press isn't reporting those facts too well............and it's the type of subject that it's not all that fun to have been proven right about..............like predicting that the Titanic was going to sink.

The hope (sigh) which one can derive from this current state of affairs being that perhaps -- just maybe -- the American public will see enough of the truth of this situation as it stands to.....uh......vote for the people that were right about it this time around..........?

It could happen.  But with the way that things are going now: people might be interested in nothing but continuing to dig this hole ever deeper.  If they are: then they'll vote accordingly.

Who was it that defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result each time? :glare:

I just hope and pray that the right people get some spine this time around.  Being right about something is always a good start:  but it's utterly meaningless unless if you are willing to fight for it.  And that calls for a type of toughness that's largely gone out of today's world.

Otherwise, we face a future where the government owns and runs everything.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Democrat VS Republican.....
Sheesh.....

the "two party" Distraction technique has worked brilliantly

while the one true party in power ( Federal Reserve)  finally consolidates its control over All private banking institutions

My website

YouTube Channel

I'm a small "r" Republican, and a capital "C" Conservative.  I'm a Conservative first, and a Republican second -- with some Libertarianism mixed in for good measure.

Like it or not, the two-party system is what we've got.  Barring a political revolution (which requires far more more energy than most people have nowadays) -- we are stuck with the two parties as the major players & power brokers in America's political power structure.

By no means whatsoever do I agree with everything that the Republican party does......in fact, they often disappoint me greatly.  But the beast is what it is.  Outside of the pre-existing two-party structure: one will find oneself extremely limited to fringe status, in political terms.  So the choice -- if one actually wants to matter politically, and not just be making some sort of self-serving "statement" based upon political purism -- is to work within the two-party system as it exists.

It's not an ideal world that we live in.  As it's been said: "politics is the Art of the Possible".  Much as some of us might wish that it were true -- politics is not the "Art of the Perfect"; because Man himself is not perfectible.  And that's another point over which "right-wingers" and "left-wingers" tend to part company, philosophically.  That's why one side thinks that brutal dictators can be negotiated with and talked out of their innate brutality and their driven lust for conquest & power -- while the other side realizes that such thinking is nothing more than a dangerous pipe dream: and that this is a dangerous world......so that you need to keep your powder dry and the edge of your sword always sharp.  If you want to remain free, that is.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - Hint: they weren't "right-wingers".

Quote - People can say what they like about this situation.  Unless if one attempts to totally re-write recent history (which the Dem pols in Congress are now desperately attempting to do) -- the fact remains that the folks who pushed for; threatened lending institutions over; defended against attempted regulatory actions; and received huge political contributions from the whole sub-prime mortgage industry are all sittin' solidly on the left side of the  isle.

As that Saturday Night Live skit so kindly mentions -- it was the hated GWB himself who made an attempt to reign in the abuses going on at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  And furthermore,  as that Youtube video of old C-SPAN footage shows: it was a series of big-name Dems who loudly insisted to everyone that there "weren't any problems here".......while their opponents (including one man named McCain) made dire predictions of a potential economic disaster in the making.

Er, ah, actually, concerning Freddie and Fannie, McCain was mostly concerned about oversight of accounting practices, not lending practices, and is on record for having said he did not expect any problem with the latter.

As for it being the fault of everyone on the so-called left (i.e., Democrats), as I have already admitted, many Democrats have been as corrupted by the system in recent decades as the Republicans. Further, there is video footage of Bush back in about 2005 extolling the virtues of sub-prime loans, talking about how great it is that folks who could otherwise not afford it could now own homes just as nice as anybody's ... oh yeah, and it has been mostly his guys running the show lately ...

As for blaming Reagan, the facts speak for themselves. Supply-side, by-for-and-of-the-corporation-type government has been tried at least 3 times now in this country. Every time it has led to huge abuses, imbalances, and huge economic woes.

Yes, Reaganomics created jobs and it maximized wealth, but for whom?

Asians, and many others, and perhaps even some among the American investment class, might have much to thank Reaganomics for, but the average working and middle-class American -- with a brief Clinton interlude -- has seen their standard of living and quality of life do nothing but decline.

I can say this until I am blue in the face, and I know it will make no impression whatsoever on Xeno, but if just some of all these massive tax cuts for the wealthy had been, instead, invested in improving the infrastructure, and in investing in the future production capacity of this country, more than likely we would be in a different situation.

Quote - Otherwise, we face a future where the government owns and runs everything.

Has it never occurred to the right that some of the reason for FDR's New Deal, whom, and which, many on the right despise, was that the economic system had been thrown thoroughly out of balance by a government geared toward allowing the investment class unbridled license?

If indeed we face a future where the government owns and runs everything, you might just want to consider that old scripture, i.e., that which you sow, ye shall also reap.

Excesses on one side almost always lead to the opposite. The pendulum swings. Any time someone looks for a cause, one can look short-term, or one can look long-term. It's all about context and perspective. So like I said before, there's enough blame to go around ... and, yes, Democrats are to blame too, but it has been the predominance of economic theories that originated on the right that have been running the show for decades now. Face up. The truth can set you free.

Quote - That's why one side thinks that brutal dictators can be negotiated with and talked out of their innate brutality and their driven lust for conquest & power -- while the other side realizes that such thinking is nothing more than a dangerous pipe dream:

More nonsense. Both right and left have always negotiated with brutal dictators. Even Dubya, who insists he will not, has done, and is doing, so.

Show me any modern administration that has not negotiated with brutal dictators, and I will show you an administration that never was.

Let Freedom Ring! 

And, no -- it hasn't been the right that's "been running the show for decades now".  It's been the philosophies and the directives of the left, with occasional tepid forays into conservative thinking timidly tried here and there.  The Clintons weren't exactly a couple of right-wing fanatics.  And the Republicans, even when they were technically in charge, haven't been all that.....uh....."Republican" in their behavior.  Which goes back to my earlier statements about political cowardice.

But then again: I'd better go check in with my Regional Director prior to posting anything else in here.  The High Council of Thirteen needs to approve my statements first.  It's dangerous to go against them, you know.  :ohmy:

BTW - FDR did nothing to get us out of the Depression.  In fact, his policies likely prolonged it and made it worse than it otherwise would have been.  WWII got us out.  But that's another debate for another time, and I don't have the personal time to deal with it at the moment.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - > Quote - That's why one side thinks that brutal dictators can be negotiated with and talked out of their innate brutality and their driven lust for conquest & power -- while the other side realizes that such thinking is nothing more than a dangerous pipe dream:

More nonsense. Both right and left have always negotiated with brutal dictators. Even Dubya, who insists he will not, has done, and is doing, so.

Show me any modern administration that has not negotiated with brutal dictators, and I will show you an administration that never was.

If I'd said that conservative (leaning) administrations didn't negotiate with brutal dictators, then you might have a point.  But as I didn't say that -- you have no point whatsoever.  I was referring to underlying philosophies & world views: not to outwardly pragmatic political necessities.

I did however, indicate that this isn't a perfect world -- and that politics is the "Art of the Possible".  I also said a few things about having to deal with political power structures as you find them.  So -- the realities are what they are.  Keeping your powder dry is a great idea.  But thinking that you can talk Ahmadinejad into turning over a new leaf & becoming a peace-lover by merely talking to him is not only stupid: it's downright dangerous.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - And, no -- it hasn't been the right that's "been running the show for decades now".  It's been the philosophies and the directives of the left, with occasional tepid forays into conservative thinking timidly tried here and there.  The Clintons weren't exactly a couple of right-wing fanatics.

Hmm. Let's see. Reagan came into power in 1980, started right away implementing deregulation, cutting funding for various social programs, implemented tax cuts and massive increases in military spending ... oh, so I guess it was Bush the elder that implemented all those philosophies and directives of the left ... er, no, not exactly.

So along came Clinton and ... er, I wonder why the Republicans kept complaining about Clinton stealing their ideas ...

And, of course Bush the Lessor, yeah, he did lots of that left-wing economic ... er, yeah.

Okay. You win.

Quote - But thinking that you can talk Ahmadinejad into turning over a new leaf & becoming a peace-lover by merely talking to him is not only stupid: it's downright dangerous.

If we are going to talk about reality, no one (other than right-wing spinners) has ever suggested such a thing, or even anything close.

So I agree. It is stupid. You win again.

As for not negotiating with brutal dictators, I've never been much interested in philosophical or ideological distinctions in argumentation. If it can't deal with reality, it can't deal. Period.

Find me any right-winger anywhere who will swear that he would not be willing to so negotiate if he believed that the price of armed conflict was unacceptable and that the national security interest (or even massive amounts of wealth) were at stake.

In other words, any ideological point in argumentation is pointless rhetoric if even its most fervent adherents, in certain contexts, would be more than eager to make massive exceptions.

Attempts to associate Reagan's policies -- such conservative policies as he actually implemented -- with the current mess are about as valid as implying that Bush caused Hurricane Katrina to strike New Orleans.  Or about like saying that washing your car will cause it to rain.  The two things have no connection with one another.

So along came the Clintons and their Justice Department threatened lenders with awful consequences if they didn't loan money to people with whom there was no reasonable expectation that they'd be able to pay the money back.

This current mess has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with tax policy, or with Reagan's deregulation.  It has to do with an agenda being pushed from Washington -- an agenda that forced banks to loan money to people who had no money, and no reasonable expectation of getting money to pay.  This isn't rocket science.

Why not go back to citing conspiracy theories about funding religious institutions for purposes of taking over the world?  They're more believable -- and more interesting.

As for "no one" suggesting that it's possible to convert men bent upon evil over to the side of sweetness 'n light by saying the right words to them in the right way: that's a central tenant of the entire world-view of the political left these days.  It didn't used to be that way -- back in the days of JFK and Scoop Jackson.  But it is now.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - As for not negotiating with brutal dictators, I've never been much interested in philosophical or ideological distinctions in argumentation. If it can't deal with reality, it can't deal. Period.

Yeah -- that's all true......like the 'reality' of a 'grand right-wing conspiracy' to take over the world via religious institutions.  Now that's what I call "dealing with reality".

Quote - Find me any right-winger anywhere who will swear that he would not be willing to so negotiate if he believed that the price of armed conflict was unacceptable and that the national security interest (or even massive amounts of wealth) were at stake.

In other words, any ideological point in argumentation is pointless rhetoric if even its most fervent adherents, in certain contexts, would be more than eager to make massive exceptions.

Yet again -- miss the point totally.  There are political necessities, and there is the underlying awareness of the fact that a tiger can't change his stripes.  The current left believes that tigers can be dressed up in sheep's wool.  And that is isn't in the nature of the tiger to eat them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - As for "no one" suggesting that it's possible to convert men bent upon evil over to the side of sweetness 'n light by saying the right words to them in the right way: that's a central tenant of the entire world-view of the political left these days.  It didn't used to be that way -- back in the days of JFK and Scoop Jackson.  But it is now.

Interesting claim. So give me some quotes of leading leftists who say we can convert evil men to sweetness and light simply by words alone. How about just one quote?

Quote - Why not go back to citing conspiracy theories about funding religious institutions for purposes of taking over the world?  They're more believable -- and more interesting.

Okay, many folks on the right, religious and otherwise, have made various statements about drowning the federal government in the bathtub, about how the American middle class has become spoiled, that Americans need to be taught a lesson, that life in the US needs to be harsh again to help create the hard, ruthless, tough-guy kind of Americans they so admire, that the good ol' days were back in the McKinley era before "socialism" got its hold on America, that there should be, essentially, no social net, and that folks should just depend on religious institutions (and great, wealthy philanthropists) when they need help, that there should be essentially no taxes or limits on private wealth, that all public assets, including drinking water and public lands should be in private hands, that religion should not only play a bigger role in government, but become financially linked to its largesse, that various government services, social security, war-making, and even firefighting, should all be outsourced and privatized, enriching the coffers of the wealthiest at the expense of average taxpayers ...

-- but, y'know, nobody actually intended ...

Oh to hell with it.

If you post last, you win, right?

I have RW (Real World) matters to deal with at the moment -- so if you want to claim the last post (for now) -- it's all yours.    But I might pop back in again in few / many hour's time -- just for fun.

Perhaps the market will take another 800 point dive on Monday.  Good thing that I'm not invested heavily in the market.  But not to worry, anyway -- Sheriff Barney Frank & Police Chief Chris Dodd are on the job, and they will fix it all for us!  Who knows?  Get the right man in the White House (the guy who was the #2 recipient of sub-prime mortgage money in Congress) ; let him raise taxes through the roof, plus institute a few hundred billion of new spending (when we're already broke) -- and something's bound to happen ! :woot:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I win! LOLOLOL 
Ronald Reagan was behind removing the usury laws over the banking industry, The BANKING industry took advantage of that and ran with it. To blame one person or class for the present disaster is short sighted.

The politicos set up the situation, but the banking industry is behind many lobbyist for left-wing AND right-wing politicians (Presidents, Congress,Senators,and Govenors) who set the laws up, and the banks take advantage of the situation.

I do not believe for an instant that this is left-wing or right-wing conspiracy. This whole thing is a conspiracy of greed and stupidity that has almost wrecked the world. A lack of ethical and moral fiber in the philosophical diet caused a build up of all this crap. At least in my opinion.

There is PLENTY of blame to go around.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

I'm going to agree with JOELGLAINE. It's not a conspiracy but an ideology that caused this mess. Unregulated capitalism is an ideology that both the so called left and the right have embraced unconditionally. I read an article recently that blamed the Clinton administration for this mess and then I read an article that blamed the republican party and Bush. Both of these articles made a lot of sense to me. But I think the whole western world embraced this ideology blindly (save maybe for France). It's an ideology that says that unregulated capitalism will somehow, magically make everything OK. A system based on  Greed will somehow benefit everyone? In my country we have a  plethora of political parties and they All tried to sell us this insanity.  Some of them still believe in it. It's insane.  The political discource is the same everywhere in the western worlds. That's my impression. Hopefully once the dust settles in America, the rest of the world will think hard about what to do next. Maybe it's time not to follow a suicidal idelogy to the bitter end.

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

JOELGLAINE,   you hold the line buddy.  That's an order.   Have you talked with your township trustee about emergency assistance?  How about local chuches, mosques, synagogues and red cross?

In the meantime PM me here and we'll talk further or you can catch me here http://www.youtube.com/user/patorak3d and here http://community.marketwatch.com/Patorak

*So give me some quotes of leading leftists who say we can convert evil men to sweetness and light simply by words alone.

*Two interesting things happened this week, for those who weren't blinded by the economic news:

The nobel peaceprice was given to the former finnish president: Martti Ahtisaari. He proved in many cases that talking is the solution to peace, in Northern Ireland, Namibië, Kosovo and many other conflicts.

North Korea announced they were going to restart their nucleair plant, because they were still on the list of roque countries. Some days later the US took them of that list, almost if it was forgotten, because they had promised to that when North Korea would stop its nucleair activities.North Korea has never been nuked or bombed to convince them to stop, so there must have been some serious negotiating with them.

Another remarkable newsfact: The american general Petreaus wants to talk with the Taliban in Afghanistan to find a solution for the endless conflict.

In an interview I saw two weeks a singapore (ian?) professor and former ambassador said that talking with Iran is the best way to convince them in giving up their nucleair ambitions.

I think the slogan "we don't talk with terrorists" is only for the public and that there are a lot of secret meetings with Hamas, Iran, Syria etc. just to find  a solution for all the conflicts.

Talking is the only solution when shooting doesn't help.

B.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

*The nobel peaceprice was given to the former finnish president: Martti Ahtisaari. He proved in many cases that talking is the solution to peace, in Northern Ireland, Namibië, Kosovo and many other conflicts.

*As a Finn, I'm really happy about Martti Ahtisaari's win. He is an inspirational figure and I think we all here in Finland respect and admire him very much indeed. We are very gratefull for his efforts in making the world a more peacefull place. 

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

Quote - I'm going to agree with JOELGLAINE. It's not a conspiracy but an ideology that caused this mess. Unregulated capitalism is an ideology that both the so called left and the right have embraced unconditionally.

I suppose it depends on how you define left and right. Many Democrats "endorsed" unregulated capitalism essentially because those who bucked the trend were being voted out of office, i.e., they moved to the right, but to say the left endorsed it is just silly.

Quote - I think the slogan "we don't talk with terrorists" is only for the public and that there are a lot of secret meetings with Hamas, Iran, Syria etc. just to find  a solution for all the conflicts.

Talking is the only solution when shooting doesn't help.

There's no question about it. That we won't talk with our enemies is just another right-wing talking point. Kruschev said he would bury us, and we talked to him. We talk to everyone.

My point was that Xeno was arguing or at least implying that some on the left (or Obama in particular?) are advocating nothing but words will magically turn every evil brutal dictator in the world into goodness and light -- just another right-wing talking point with no connection whatsoever to what Obama or others have actually said.

I try in vain to get folks like Xeno to drop all the hyperbole and empty rhetoric, but it's simply hopeless ... and if anyone, like me, actually pays attention to what right-wingers have been saying publicly for years and years, and starts to think they really meant it, well, we're just conspiracy nuts, I guess.

*I suppose it depends on how you define left and right. Many Democrats "endorsed" unregulated capitalism essentially because those who bucked the trend were being voted out of office, i.e., they moved to the right, but to say the left endorsed it is just silly.

My remark was spawned out of frustration mainly.  The social democratic party in my country tends to say one thing and then do another . My casual observation of Americas democratic party left me with the same conclusion. Perhaps I was being hasty. I am the first person to admit that my observations of Americas political parties and customs are superficial at best.  But I dare say  that America lacks a proper leftist party. Or alternatives to 2 party politics.  That's how it seems to an outsider anyway.  Then again there is very good chance that I am 100% wrong. I usually am.

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

*But I dare say  that America lacks a proper leftist party.

*I totally agree, even the democrats would be called right-wing here in Holland. In our country we have a very populair socialist party, Mao would be proud of. But we have parties in every flavor: liberal democrats, liberal conservatives, religious socialists, religious conservatives, extreme religious, moderated socialists (my favourites), extreme socialists, green socialists, we even have a party for animals (serious!) It's always a miracle how we can make a government. But we also are a King(Queen)dom, so that's a stabile factor in our politics.
But inspite of this somewhat archaic institution, that's what I call a democracy!

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Attached Link: http://www.loonyparty.info/

Vote National Raving Loony!

"Vote National Raving Loony!"

Given the state of the nation, isn't that new political party a little redundant?

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

forming in 1961 is new?

Good point bopperthijs
The US financial crisis may partly lie in the fact that the US stuck in a two party political system. Both parties with very little difference between them and both beholden to big business for campaign funds.
When each Presidential candidate needs at least $100 million to campaign, there are lots of favours to pay off, to you know who.

" forming in 1961 is new?"

Sorry, didn't actually click and assumed it was new. I should have known it had already come to power. 

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Aren't they guys that ran Bullwinkle for president and advocated the succession of Mooselvania in 1963? LOLOL :lol:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Quote - Both parties with very little difference between them and both beholden to big business for campaign funds.

When each Presidential candidate needs at least $100 million to campaign, there are lots of favours to pay off, to you know who.

It's a whole lot more than $100 million if you are talking presidential campaigns. All told, the combined total was actually in the billions in 2004.

In any case, you have definitely hit upon the crux of the problem.

The real left in the US -- to the limited extent that it exists -- is almost powerless, and almost unanimously supports public financing of political campaigns for that reason.

Capitalism is just as evil as Socialism, in practice, becausew while both on paper, are good ideas, in practice, folk ALWAYS take them to extremes, and thus cause catastrophy.

And Xeno, don't talk rubbish on that point, please, or I'll show you the legacy of unrestrained greed and what it does to people. Go have a look at the 1800s and the indtrial city slums as an example.
Capitalismisonly meant ot be a econmic system, not a governmental style, Big Business bought the heart and soul of America out form the turn of the last century, go see how the Spanish-American War actually started.
America ha sbeen fed the "Mushroom Treatment" ford ecades, people can accept the Soviets did that, but won't admit we in the West were ALSO fed crap.
Go see how many billlions big business and ultra-right wingers poured into think tanks, PR and advertizing...we are constanlty bombared with lies.
Go compare Global Warming skeptics, to the smoking causes cancer skeptics of 50s to early 70s (and still try to say passive smoking isn't harmful)....follow the money. FYI, the Sierra CLub doesn't make $114 billion a year, like Exxon does ;)

And all functional Western Democracies are Republics to some degree. Parliamentary systems though have proven far more robust and less likely to have extremism than classic Republics.
ie, with parties electing a leader, rather than a seperate office folk fight over.

Yeah, Vote Mosnter Raving Loony!! you know it makes sense! :D

Want to clean up democracy? easy: 
-Ban political parties, as they cause stagnation, corruption and pervert the very idealogy they are meant to support;  Think I'm kidding? examine them. None of them are "liberal" or "conservative", they're all corrupt as hell.
-only ONE term in ANY area of governent: local, town/city, state/region, national, prime minister/president. Because when they get entrenched, they become corrupt.
Time those SOBs learned what it means to not have a "job for life"
-Ban politicians forever, from serving in ANY company or paying position afterwards, to prevent corruption (but give them a good pension). They are supposed ot serve the public NOT themselves.
-ANy leader who calls for a war is executed. This will make damned sure that only wars of absolute self defence/need are fought..or that psychos are eliminated, hehe. If you have the will to demand a war, where your people die, you better be willing to die, too.
-Make bribery and corruption in office classed as treason, which is what they are

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Quote - Yes, greed and accumulation of wealth are the culprits here.  That's why I'm grinding and sharpening the guillotine here.  I mean, Luld took away 483 million dollars in seven years.  My god, we could give every person in this country (300 million) a dollar of this salary given to ONE individual.  And he's small fish compared to Warren Buffet and their ilk with their multi-Billion dollar assets. 

At least Warren Buffet made his money through buying and selling investments. The problem with executive pay is, as it pretty much always has been, up to the executive and his cronies themselves. There is a small circle of people who sit awarding themselves money.

Quote - Elected office should be a public service, as originally intended.  There was no plan for a permanent political class who would remain in office for decades.  It should be a penurious experience, with term limits, and one should be forbidden from profiting from the job before, during or after.  This would eliminate the showboats (you all know who they are and they infest both parties) from spending their entire lives directing the general populous who are obviously too ignorant or lazy to get about their own business.

It would also return us to the early days of the republic, when only the wealthy could afford to run for public office. You would end up with politicians who either inhertied wealth, married into wealth, or had day jobs lucrative day jobs. There was a reason why the early congress was made up mostly of lawyers, prosperous merchants, and plantation owners.

Quote - > Quote - Elected office should be a public service, as originally intended.  There was no plan for a permanent political class who would remain in office for decades.  It should be a penurious experience, with term limits, and one should be forbidden from profiting from the job before, during or after.  This would eliminate the showboats (you all know who they are and they infest both parties) from spending their entire lives directing the general populous who are obviously too ignorant or lazy to get about their own business.

It would also return us to the early days of the republic, when only the wealthy could afford to run for public office. You would end up with politicians who either inhertied wealth, married into wealth, or had day jobs lucrative day jobs. There was a reason why the early congress was made up mostly of lawyers, prosperous merchants, and plantation owners.

Wow! That sounds just like today! :lol: That was a short trip! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

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An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
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The so-called European "Rescue" plan makes me sick to the stomach. Media sure loves it though. Let's see: The Banks took huge risks, gambled with money, lost money and acted irresponsibly. So what do we do? Give them more money! In what kind of bizarro world do we live in? Even Homer Simpson could come up with a better plan. Even after 20 beers and lobotomy Mr Simpson would be smart enough not do what the Europe is doing.  I wouldn't give a pickpocket more money just because he no longer even wants to make the effort of stealing it. "I can't be arsed to trick you anymore, so just gimme your money anyway." Ok. You got it buddy. This is the great European rescue plan!?! The usually Un united European leaders stand united when they "have to" give more money to the gamblers.  Brilliant. I'm beginning to think we deserve another great depression. Stupidity should be punished.

What's really odd that we can't hire enough doctors or nurses but for some reason there's this magic money we can give to the banks.

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-Life can be hilariously cruel

From some point of view I could agree with you: This whole plan sounds crazy, and it's you and me who are going to pay for this in someway. But I'm afraid this modern world can't survive without banks. If it wasn't possible to lend money from the bank, the whole housemarket would collapse, and with it the whole building industry. This whole system is so damn complicated that we are overwhelmed by it. You have to be a professor in economics to understand he whole figure.
In that view I think it's ironic that an american got this year nobel-price for economics.
I agree that bankers can be gamblers, but those "gamblers" also have my money and savings so if they go bankrupt I'm afraid I wouldn't see one eurocent of it again. So I´m glad the governments take action, from what I understand the mayor part of the money is meant to garantee the savingsaccounts of the common men and to support the healthy and "correct" banks. So at the moment we'll have to wait and see what happens.

just my €0.02 for what it's worth at the moment.

Bopper.
 

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Peelo, that's pretty much what the US rescue plan was as well.  Except in the US plan, we are letting the congressmen who were supposed to keep this from happening lead the committees to find out what happened.  Somehow I think they are going to dump the blame on Bush and pat themselves on the back before calling for more subprime loans.

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 This whole mess is just the latest chapter in the systematic looting that began with the Savings and Loan debacle in the 80s. The Objectivist posers tout the 'free market' and denounce the evils of regulation. When the shields come down, they bribe their way into a full sanction of their Ponzi schemes until the costs of failure reach the stratosphere. Finally their worthlessness is revealed, and they come running to the government for a bailout before retiring to their plush mansions. It’s capitalism for the profits and socialism for the losses.

Any institution that is backed by Federal insurance or receives a bailout from the Federal government has forfeited its right to the ‘free market.’ These institutions are a public menace and need to be regulated and watched if not nationalized.

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Here's my two big problems with regulations and nationization:

1.  There's no guarantee that the lawmakers are going to be any less corrupt than the individual institutions (aka congress for letting this happen in the first place).  In fact by giving them more power, you are making washington a more attractive place for those individuals who are corrupt.  Basically you are begging for more corrupt people to run for congress and more lobbiests in washington.

2.  There's no guarantee that whoever is running the institutions are going to be competent (a la the initial botched Katrina recovery).  I mean is anyone on the finance or banking committees trained as bankers or economists?  If they aren't who's giving them their info on which they base their decisions, the people at fanny mae?  The people who need to run these companies are people who know how to manage wisely in that field.  If you put it in the hands of politicians, the banks will be run by politics, lobbiests, and just as much greed as before.

There's one other thing that really scares me about the US government taking over banks.  If I remember right, in the past 40 or so years congress has repeated raided social security and has left somewhere in the ballpark of 5 trillion dollars in IOUs.  So if they take over the banks, what'll happen if they need more money for whatever useless thing they are working on? Instead of $1,000 in the bank your average Joe goes to his atm and sees an IOU for $1,000 and can't take out any money.  If the government owns the bank, realistically they can do anything they want with the money you have stored there.  They'll just claim they needed it for the Crisis of the Month (CotM) and promise to send you a check back in 90 days.  And you can't take it up with anyone because the only people you can complain to is the government who raided your bank account.

If you are a democrat, would you trust a republican congress with your life savings?
If you are a republican, would you trust a democrat congress with your life savings?
If you are an independant, would you trust either congress with your life savings?

See where I'm coming from?

Anyways I think those institutions were a public menance but where was congress when they needed to be kept from growing too large or kept from putting so many assets in risky mortgages?  They certainly needed some form of regulations, but they didn't do it and the government hasn't done it so who are we the people supposed to turn to?

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

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Quote - 1.  There's no guarantee that the lawmakers are going to be any less corrupt than the individual institutions (aka congress for letting this happen in the first place).  In fact by giving them more power, you are making washington a more attractive place for those individuals who are corrupt.  Basically you are begging for more corrupt people to run for congress and more lobbiests in washington.

2.  There's no guarantee that whoever is running the institutions are going to be competent (a la the initial botched Katrina recovery).  I mean is anyone on the finance or banking committees trained as bankers or economists?  If they aren't who's giving them their info on which they base their decisions, the people at fanny mae?  The people who need to run these companies are people who know how to manage wisely in that field.  If you put it in the hands of politicians, the banks will be run by politics, lobbiests, and just as much greed as before.

Excuse me, but what are you saying?

There's no guarantee that the wealthiest, most powerful, and most ruthless won't rob you blind and enslave you without lawmakers, government, and corrupt institutions either.

There are no guarantees in life. Period. So what? Welcome to reality. There are no perfect solutions to anything. Nothing can be guaranteed. Ever. But it's hardly an argument for or against doing anything.

The whole point of regulation is to keep a balance between competing power-grabbing interests, i.e., keep them occupied and at each other's throats most of the time instead of focusing 100% of their attention on cutting yours. The whole point of trying to have and maintain a somewhat representative government with a little regulatory muscle is that at least there's the possibility you can vote the bums out of power. That's the whole point of government establishing and enforcing guidelines by which business should be conducted instead of the other way around, i.e., at least you might be able to vote the politicians out of power when you don't like the way they are doing things. Just try voting the billionaires on the boards of directors of the international bankers and corporations out of power sometime. Just go ahead and try.

It's all about balance, and things are waaay out of balance. Or hadn't you noticed?

As for Xeno's claim that what is happening has no connection whatsoever to the policies of Ronald Reagan, the current credit crunch is just the latest in a long series of mostly conservative policies that have proven mostly disastrous for all but the wealthy -- and even some of them.

Reagan started the repeal of the usury laws, which in turn have had the effect of encouraging lenders to lend at high interest rates to high-risk debtors, encouraging ever increasing levels of unsupported consumer debt. He began the trend that has led to the wholesale repeal of various corporate regulations, which in turn have had the effect of ever increasing corporate corruption (e.g., Savings and Loans, Enron, dot.com tech stock manipulations, aka 'irrational exuberance', etc.) and ever decreasing corporate accountability. He began a systematic assault on labor unions, which in turn has had the effect of reducing the bargaining position of many American workers in an economic environment increasingly unfriendly to the average American worker. His administration began the privatization of the military, putting more and more taxpayers' money into the hands of corporate contractors with less and less government oversight. He began the right's flirtation with theocracy, ergo, cronyism and guaranteed government incompetence. He implemented huge tax cuts for corporations and the wealthiest when more investment in our country's failing infrastructure was what was was truly needed and would likely have benefited everyone in the long run, including the richest of the rich. His policies, and those that have followed, have funneled (er, "trickled down") a lot of American investors' wealth into Asia and much of the rest of the world, creating lots of jobs and industry for them, but not so many jobs or industry for American workers, who now have to increasingly compete against such workers, many living under brutal dictatorial regimes, and many of whom have never successfully fought for, nor have ever won the rights and benefits American workers have (or once did).

And most of that, while having not much of anything direct to do with the current credit crunch, certainly did set many of the current balls in motion, and that in turn very likely will have an impact on how hard we all fall, how much it hurts, and on the speed and robostness of our recovery.

So, yeah, Xeno is right. No connection whatsoever. Unless you are inclined to look at the big picture.

I mostly agree with donquixote.

Time-line-wise from what I saw: Ronald Reagan repealed the usury laws. Usury is where the rich can use their power of money to charge higher interest raise to the poor and (legally) helpless.

George Bush implemented most of Reagan's laws and took the country further in the same direction. He got tripped up in one of the re-election debates for not showing empathy for the country's pain. Slick Willy Clinton ran up points with the famous utterance of,"I feel your pain."

Bill Clinton, with the soul of a used car salesmen, sold the country further down the river and took his piece of the action. Then, after two terms of looting America, the present chowder head took over after promising no more of the same old economic looting.  SO George W Bush did a new and different looting of America and invaded a country to finish his daddy's unfinished business.

Well....Since Nixon, the paranoid pycho, got into office, the country's been on a down-ward slide. Almost every president since then either a bad joke, or as criminal as they can get away with. like part of a Mafia family. The so called political dynasties are one of the most dangerous things to come out of recent history,IMO because they lead to political inbreeding and more 'organized crime'-like activity. What I mean by that, is consistent limited points of focus on activities that are sometimes frivilous and treated like serious and more likely to harm innocents. Lack of transparency and consistent lying to hide motives and redirect oversight (if any! LOLOL) are symptoms of this political inbreeding.

Strangely--this election is a change to take America into a possible new direction ,IMO. McCain can  actually remember how the country ran, and experienced first hand, the failings of Nixon administration. Barak Obama isn't entrenched in the current political mire that Washington has become.  Unfortunately McCain hasn't been very successful to seperate himself from the workings of Washington. I don't think I would have voted for him after almost thirty years in Washington, IMO I believe he's a good, strong man, but not quite Presidential

If a really strong (and NOT crazy) third party candidate was running, I'd vote for him or her.  We NEED some de-entrenching of the present partisan Republican vs Democrat deadlocked "Mutual Assured Destruction" of both parties  Attitude that has held on for the past several administrations.

I'm an independant, and just wants the political system to work on level as directed by the original  founders more than "broken".:sad:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!