Quote - @ odf,

For the "shopping list". How about Ik for the arms? I sugest that the collars should not be included in the chain.

I can certainly try. :unsure:

With the new collar setup I'm working on, you might rethink that second suggestion, by the way.

Lashes could have their own map, this way they could have as much resolution as the texture creator needs

Tonight, I added geometry swapping for the body handles, which means that I can finally throw the handle geometry out of the main obj file. Making this save/reload friendly turned out slightly tricky, possibly because the default geometry was empty and Poser tried to be clever. I ended up switching between two alternate geometries for each handle actor, one empty and one with the handle geometry, because the one from the main obj file just wouldn't stick.

At any rate, I have a follow-up question: there's a master dial in the body now that turns all the handles on or off simultaneously. Is that enough or should I make the dials for each individual handle visible as well? Keep in mind that Poser has a built-in on/off switch for each individual actor, anyway, so having those extra dials does not seem to be of much value to me. Any thoughts?

@ odf,

For the body handles, one dial in the BODY sounds best. No need to clutter the other actors IMO.

Quote - With the new collar setup I'm working on, you might rethink that second suggestion, by the way.

Perhaps, but I have never been keen on having collars in the IK chain, even with figures that have the breasts in the chest. I think the collars tend to move too much with IK.

Quote - @ odf,

For the body handles, one dial in the BODY sounds best. No need to clutter the other actors IMO.

Quote - With the new collar setup I'm working on, you might rethink that second suggestion, by the way.

Perhaps, but I have never been keen on having collars in the IK chain, even with figures that have the breasts in the chest. I think the collars tend to move too much with IK.

Well, I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to IK, but isn't that what weights and limits are for?

Okay...
Screen grab of the inner mouth, gums, teeth and tongue, with the teeth separated, showing the UV view as well as all the parts separated with a UV checker applied.
Should make it easier for texturing the teeth and avoiding seams on the inner mouth, or at least limiting the seams to not easily seen areas.
This is a response to SaintFox's request for making that whole area easier to deal with.

Good job! Very clean-looking layout!

Question: I was thinking about adding dials that would influence the JCM strengths in order to reduce potential poke-through in clothing and such. Probably one dial for each joint that has JCMs attached, plus one master dial for shirts (shoulders and elbows) and one for pants (hip and knees), all with a range from 0 to 1. Does that sound useful at all? Should I wait until we have some rigged clothes to test this on?

Thank you, Olaf. :-)

I would like to model some simple clothes for Antonia, and I asked this a week or so ago but didn't get an answer -
What kind of topology would be best suited for Antonia's unique rigging? Just follow the topology of Antonia herself would be my first inclination, but I'm still remembering from a month or so ago, the guy who said that clothing for Antonia would be more difficult than for, say, Daz people.
So I'm wondering if it would be necessary to have more than usual polygon density in the joint areas or something, or would that not matter?

I wouldn't know. I've never made any clothes. But I can't imagine there would be much of a difference between modeling for Antonia and any other figure. Were you thinking dynamic or conforming?

Oh OK, thanks.
Conforming, I imagine. Although I know absolutely nothing about creating conforming clothes or dynamic clothes in Poser, so anything I make will just be UV mapped OBJ files, for someone else to rig and conform if they want to.

For conforming clothes, the only thing I can think of is to plan the topology so that you can get a grouping that matches Antonia's. Put edge loops on the group boundaries where it makes sense. That's pretty much everywhere except the chest-collar ones, I would imagine. Make sure you have enough geometry to separate the chest, abdomen, hip and hip2, since Antonia's abdomen and hip are fairly narrow. Also, make sure to put enough geometry in the crotch for pants and such.

Of course, that's all just guessing. But I guessed pretty well when I made Antonia, so maybe it's not completely useless. :laugh:

it depends on what you want to do.

the way most people make clothes makes them look like butt with procedural textures (such as bagginsbill's Matmatic Loom materials).  making them like real clothes gives you a good basis for procedural textures and allows you to create something that works really well as dynamic clothing.  that said, i have no clue how that works with cloth that  works like skin instead of cloth (or other materials).  personally, i don't find conforming clothing very convincing when it does that, so my goal is avoid it altogether, but that's just me.

@ MikeJ,

Quote - ... I'm still remembering from a month or so ago, the guy who said that clothing for Antonia would be more difficult than for, say, Daz people. > Quote -

I think that guy was mostly referring to the collar JMC, and the problem of matching that in the clothing. I have never used it, but D3D's "Conforming Clothing" app/script, what ever it is, sounds like it would easily solve that problem, so long as the topology allowed sufficient bending in the right places.

Oh yes, this inner mouth looks good and should be easy to texture - I'm eager to try it out!

And about conforming and dynamic clothes: They both have their place in Poserdom! Especially when it comes to skirts and other soft things (sweaters, blouses) I prefer dynamic clothes. But there is use for conformings as well (and they are still No. 1 for the customers - but to me it looks as if they slowly change their minds). Everything that is rather stiff like armor, shoes, rigged jewellery and many tight and short clothes work better as conformings.

A big difference is the fact that dynamic vlothes have to be one homogene object. While you can model a pocket and "paste" it to a conforming pant the same pocket will not stay with the same pant if you make it dynamic until you make it a part of the pant. I am no modeller, I just test what Leo creates and make it work as dynamic clothing.
You can try it out by taking a conforming skirt and make it a dynamic item. If there are any buttons, zippers, bows or such they will fall down or rip the skirt into pieces. If the skirt is a one-piece object you are able to turn it into a dynamic cloth. The tutorial section here holds a how-to as far as I remember.

*i have no clue how that works with cloth that  works like skin instead of cloth (or other materials).

*This is no biggie, you alter the behaviour of the cloth with the dynamic controls and this way you can turn a cotton-skirt into a leather- or jeans-skirt.

See here
http://www.expandanything.org/tutorials/2313.html
for more information and some helpers

and be sure to get PhilC's cloth room helper scripts for an easy start:
http://www.philc.net/ClothRoomPresets.htm

Quote - And about conforming and dynamic clothes: They both have their place in Poserdom

oh, i totally agree that's true about Poserdom. that's why i specified that it was my personal preference.  i haven't seen anything as dynamic, including swimsuits, that i haven't liked much better and found much more natural.  i personally am avoiding conforming clothing as much as possible, and have yet to need to use it.  but i certainly don't think that's the norm, or even preferable as the norm.

Quote - But there is use for conformings as well (and they are still No. 1 for the customers - but to me it looks as if they slowly change their minds). Everything that is rather stiff like armor, shoes, rigged jewellery and many tight and short clothes work better as conformings.

actually, i find anything stiff and conforming either quite unrealistic or quite annoying.  i think they work worlds better as parented props.  stiff means it shouldn't bend any more than it should drape.  but again, that's my personal taste/solutions. 

Quote - A big difference is the fact that dynamic vlothes have to be one homogene object. While you can model a pocket and "paste" it to a conforming pant the same pocket will not stay with the same pant if you make it dynamic until you make it a part of the pant. I am no modeller, I just test what Leo creates and make it work as dynamic clothing.

You can try it out by taking a conforming skirt and make it a dynamic item. If there are any buttons, zippers, bows or such they will fall down or rip the skirt into pieces.

that's not quite true. you can make a part constrained.  you can make a part a hard decorated. you have several different options for parts like those.  i've seen a few dynamic necklaces  as freebies, and svdl's office clothes which have zippers and buttons.  in general, there's lots of ways to have detailed dynamic clothing.  you don't, and generally shouldn't, have just a single, homogeneous object.

Quote -

*i have no clue how that works with cloth that  works like skin instead of cloth (or other materials).

*This is no biggie, you alter the behaviour of the cloth with the dynamic controls and this way you can turn a cotton-skirt into a leather- or jeans-skirt.

that's not what i meant, though thank you very much for the cool information.

so, right now, i make dynamic clothes using an alteration of the process Adorana described at RDNA.  i had to alter it because i use Blender and not Clothilde/C4D, but i've got a process that works pretty well for me so far.  i've even started playing a little with soft decorated elements to create tension.  at some point, i'll try that on seams, so the clothing will actually have structure (which is the big problem with how most dynamic clothes are made).  i'm now hindered mainly by the fact that i have no clue how to make real clothes.   especially how to measure.  that's really not working for me yet.

sorry for all the information, but i just wanted to make it clearer what i was talking about.  the point  that's relevant to the topology issue is that my clothing meshes' topologies have nothing to do with the topology of the figure they're made for.  they're entirely dependent on what a flat piece of cloth would do when draped, pulled or whatever around a figure. or sort of sewn around a figure. with maybe some sculpting to correct simulation or user error.  i'm mainly playing around now, and not good at it yet, but i'm learning. 

i have no idea how those meshes would work if they were made conforming. 
conforming clothes basically work like skin.  instead of wrinkling and stretching only according to the properties of your fabric, it just stretches and compresses with the figure's movements.  i have no clue whether, say, a t-shirt made like a real t-shirt would conform properly or stretch so badly as to be unusable. i know that most conforming clothes are sculpted into shape and have a UV flow completely unlike clothing would actually be cut and sewn together.  which doesn't matter for textures, but is problematic for procedural materials.   and, dynamic clothes work best if they're made like clothes because putting an average, homogenous mesh into a clothing simulator will give you results like a person shaped cloth, rather than something with some structure. 

basically, i know conforming clothes don't have a structure or topology optimal for dynamic use.  it's kind of a GIGO situation.  a lot of what makes the new D|S dynamics work better is just better constructed clothing.  and i'm thinking that something made to be dynamic might not work well as something conforming clothes.  since i'm not interested in conforming, and basically am choosing one, that's not an issue for me, and i can comment on issues for meshes meant to be dynamic, but i'm guessing that conforming would be a whole other ball of wax.

I have just uploaded a new OBJ file to the Dev site - a text file with the link to the latest Antonia Lo res OBJ with the inner mouth/teeth UV fix.
The text file is in the Files To Work On section and is called "AP_LoResUvs_TnG_Fix_10-14-09.txt"

It contains only an OBJ file for LO-res Antonia 114 and a *.tif template representing the changes to the mouth parts.
None of the other UVs have changed, only the teeth and inner mouth, and I think the tongue got moved slightly, though the tongue UVs are still the same.

It's not "Poserized" yet, as Olaf will have to do that with his software he designed, as well as make a hi-res version, but you could at least use the new template to start on the inner mouth parts for now.

@Olaf,
Olaf, after you do that - assuming you do. ;-) ...
You can email the stuff to me using my Dev Site email addy and I can host it, to avoid using up Dev site space, if you want.

Mike: Cool! I'll do that.

Thank you Olaf. :-)

AAAARGGGHHHHH!!!

I HAAAAAAATE this forum software!

Mr Bondware, if you're reading this, please just use PhpBB or VBulletin!

Sorry, I had to get that out of my system. ;-)

I just typed up a long reply to a Site Mail from SaintFox and the damn forum software ate it. Just poof, gone after one careless tap of the backspace key at the wrong time while typing... :-/

OK, I'm better now. ;-)

Olaf, no rush on that, since the template can be used for texture work even without the actual Antonia Cr2, and I'm going out for the rest of the night, so I won't be around to do anything abiout it until tomorrow morning anyway.

*but i certainly don't think that's the norm

Maybe not - but we are at least two!

Of course you are right, decorated and constrained groups are a very underrated feature. And the office set by SVDL is THE example.
What I meant is that turning conforming clothes into dynamics doesn't work as 1-2-3 and sometimes will not work at all as parts of the meshes need to be closed. I once tried my luck with Masquerade's Eve the Masquerade's Eve skirt and the whole thing exploded LOL - too bad because sitting poses with this skirt are so hard to do and look pretty unnatural.

Oh... I have a totally different question - and it may sound a bit absurd: As the official Antonia preview page shows "Antonia Polygon" in the title - may it be that Antonia is the first 3d figure with a surname? I like the idea and at the moment my textures show this sign:

I don't know about being the first, but I can't recall any other figure with an official surname in Poserdom. I invented it for my Antonia-specific Gmail account.

It's sweet! So sweet that I got a girlie attack and used this heart-font :laugh:

There is a (very inclomplete) list of Poser figures at Wikipedia, so I had a look and maybe there is one more figure, Apollo - as far as Maximus is a surname.

If you want to add Antonia later, here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poser_figures

Oh and - one more point for your list: You may want to contact Netherworks with the finished Antonia as well. Netherworks created the Hair Conversion System, a tool I like a lot as it makes it very easy to convert hair from one figure to another - at least propped hair, I had not so much luck with figure hair and prefer Wardrobe Wizard for it. Well worth the money anyway!

Quote - *
What I meant is that turning conforming clothes into dynamics doesn't work as 1-2-3 and sometimes will not work at all as parts of the meshes need to be closed. I once tried my luck with Masquerade's Eve the Masquerade's Eve skirt and the whole thing exploded LOL - too bad because sitting poses with this skirt are so hard to do and look pretty unnatural.

oh, totally.  i was more meaning that dynamic clothes didn't  have to be featureless, not that any mesh works well as dynamic.  i've had things that seemed like they would and should work well just break.  and i've been remarkably surprised at how easy some stuff was to convert, such as with some outfits by Xena, who had consistently said she didn't go to dynamic because she couldn't get the edging and detail she wanted.

So here are some quick renders about the actual progress of the new texture.
I used the same photos I used for the first texture - and again I stumbled over the remarkable difference between legs and torso - the legs are far darker and show a different circulation than the torso and the feet.

And agai I couldn't resist color-shifting the legs until I had a brighter result. But when I rendered them the looked so dull and lost so much detail that I deleted the manipulated legs and used the original map for these renders.

If you look at the render that shows the backside you can easily see that the legs are "meant to be this way" There is still no shader system or bump in the renders (except the eyes - these are completely ready to be used), just the plain texture - and lots of seams, of course.

Anyway: I wanted you to have a look before I sleep a bit after a night of work and experimenting.

So here we go:

Part of the brightness on the front feed may be caused by the toecap - I think I messed up the settings on them so that they cause a kind of shine under specific light. But they are indeed brighter than the shins, it seems that the photomodel wears short socks, even in summer.

your texture looks wondrful!

Yes, your textures are looking great!

Very cool texture! I don't mind the darker legs, actually. No one has perfectly even skin, so a few irregularities only add to the realism.

I've been thinking of Antonia Polygon in terms of a first name and a surname.
Miss Polygon? Mrs. Polygon? ;-)
That's actually why all my links for downloads for all these UV sets have started with "AP" - because in my mind, Antonia's last name is Polygon. Which I actually think is pretty cool. :-)

Ms Polygon, please!

Ms... am I right that this is the politically correct term for women when you are not sure if they are married or not? Similar to the removing of the Fraeulein from the german parlance?

Okay and thanks a lot for the feedback!! I was unsure what to do as together with some poses like the sitting pose above the legs CAN look strange. But as said: Colorshifting their brightness, saturation and tone, even in several careful steps was nothing but what I call "enhanceworsing" (verschlimmbessern for germans) - I created this term for what I tend to do when I ponder too long over a part of a project and since I have it Leo can remind me to stop now and keep what I have.

The only thing that I will revisit is the part where the brighter thigh meets the hip.
And I will start to work on the arms and hopefully be able to finish almost everything on them as we have some non-computer plans for the weekend.

Quote - Ms... am I right that this is the politically correct term for women when you are not sure if they are married or not? Similar to the removing of the Fraeulein from the german parlance?

That's what I've been given to understand. I've only learned this recently, myself. According to my Ms, the proper pronounciation is "Miz" (with a soft 's' sound), as opposed to the sharp 's' of "Miss".

I hope you all don't mind if I bring back the discussion about the lash-map... I am fine with the system we have now but pitklad mentioned that giving them their own map will leave it to the texture creator what resolution he prefers.
I thought about it yesterday and today and had a look on the map and of course he is right: At the moment I have a 4000x4000 map here with the lashes in the lower right corner, the rest of the space is plain black. So maybe a single map just for the lashes (and brows?) may be better.

What do you think?

Quote - I hope you all don't mind if I bring back the discussion about the lash-map... I am fine with the system we have now but pitklad mentioned that giving them their own map will leave it to the texture creator what resolution he prefers.
I thought about it yesterday and today and had a look on the map and of course he is right: At the moment I have a 4000x4000 map here with the lashes in the lower right corner, the rest of the space is plain black. So maybe a single map just for the lashes (and brows?) may be better.

What do you think?

I think it's a good idea, the more I think about it.
Olaf still hasn't made the new hi res Antonia and CR2 files for the latest version I uploaded the other day... or else he did and I don't see where, or he emailed it to me and my anti-virus ate it. ;-)

At any rate, I'll redo the lashes so they take up a whole texture and have that ready maybe later today, but by tomorrow morning at the latest. I'd do it right now but I'm on my way out the door and have too much work today.

So Olaf, if you haven't yet done the latest conversion, don't bother... new version on its way soon. Hopefully the last. ;-)

Alright, I'll wait until I hear from you.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1962005

As said I will be away from the computer on Saturday and Sunday (at least most of the time).
Antonia has a first arm now and the outer hand, the palms still need work. But in fact I need a little time-out as I already became impatient while working. A sign that I need some sleep and fresh air

SF, your texture is looking great!

I had some thoughts on the body handles. I think it might be a good idea to include an extra body handle for the BODY actor. This gives an easy way to select the Body with one mouse click. Whilst that can be done without the extra handle, I feel that having some actual geometry in the BODY actor makes it easier to select with a mouse click.

I have uploaded "My_114_LB_01_cr2.zip" to the "Files to Work On" section of the developers site, to demonstrate this, and some other ideas. A dial in the BODY actor controls the visibility of the handles via geom switching. With a setting of "0" all handles are hidden. With a setting of "1" the hip and BODY handle only are visible. With a setting of "2" all handles are visible.

The cr2 loads with the BlueEchoSimple MAT applied (not included in the distribution). It includes some PBMCC channels. MikeJ's "MouthOpen_03_Head" morph is included, and the jaw is slaved to that morph. A few of my morphs are also included. More details in the zip.

Quote - As you may see I found a way to even out the dark legs without messing the texture completely up and by keeping the rosy tone of the lower body. But I think it looks a bit better now.

It looks awesome, SaintFox. Your texture is coming along great.

lesbentley: Thanks for the cr2! It's always rewarding to study the works of the masters.

I think both adding a handle for the body and bringing the handles in in more than one step are great ideas, so I'll include those in my next preview. The hip and body handle should be the most useful, particularly while the other handles not yet rigged properly, so it's good to be able to just have those visible. Actually, I used to have a nagging suspicion Poser wouldn't allow geometry in the body actor, so it's good to see that that's not true.

I'll see if I can wrap my head around your dial-a-nipple setup. Since I now have this nifty library for writing and rewriting Poser files, I think one of these days I'll have to write a program that generates advanced ERC rigs like that automatically. A bit like BB's matmatic, but for ERC. :laugh:

Yesterday I wrote a little script that copies morph deltas between CR2 files. I got tired of copying all the changes  I made to the high-poly CR2 to the low-poly one by hand. Now I can automatically create the low-poly CR2 from the high-poly one and any other CR2 that has the correct morph deltas for low-poly. Eventually, I'd like to have software in place to actually rewrite the deltas from low- to high-poly and back, but that might have to wait for a little longer.

lesbentley: shame on you, you forgot to set "inkyParent" and "nonInkyParent" for the hands. :laugh:

Your handle dial didn't work for me either, at least not in P8. But I have my own version, since I wanted the handle geometry out of the base mesh, so I haven't looked into that much.

Anyway, the body handle, two-stage handle dial and IK chains for the hands have now been incorporated in my master file. I've also changed the order of the body parts in Poser's drop-down lists, as suggested by SaintFox. I have a few more tweaks on my agenda, but I think I'll be ready for a new preview version soon.