First, allow me to appologise if you think this is the wrong place to bring up an issue with e-on. If you already have Vue7 infinite or if you have or intend to get complete and think you will never want infinite, please ignore this thread. But if you have the slightest interest in a possible v7comp->v7inf upgrade please read on and add your comment.
I have been trying for weeks to get a descent answer from e-on why such a path doesnt exist with no success. (The best(ha ha...) offer they had was 'returning' complete with the lose of the upgrade privileges, which means getting inf then would cost $500. )
The answers to my question why is there no upgrade path wereto repeat that there is no path but not why. The latest one-liner is 'We have decided to split our product line, due to the results of our market analysis'
I find this very unsatisfactory and wondered if others feel similarly. I would direct you to my ticket but apparantly e-on thinks tickets are of no interest to the rest of the comunity and dont always allow public accsess. So here is my latest post. If you agree with any of it post here and I'll copy/paste your comments to my ticket. Perhaps public pressure could help?

Selina,
Well, I understand very well by now that you dont want to answer my question. Either that or you are assuming I'm a retarded/ignorant person. My inteligence is at least average and my education is higher than average, so stop feeding me meaningless one-liners.
My question isnt why you if or why you introduced two lines of products. The specific questions are
-Why isnt there a way to move from the top of the artists line to the pro line. It isnt a weird or novel suggestion, you yourself use this philosophy in the rest of your products. Did your market research include this point?
Did it show that there is no demand to such option -I know that isnt true from posts in vue forums.
Did your market research show you will lose money by enabling such a transfer? -that cant be true because customers will have to pay an additional amount for the upgrade, they dont expect it for free.
Did your market research show that customers will be intimidated into buying infinite directly? - not in the current economy. More likely that they wont get any version.
Did your market research show that if someone changes their mind about upgrading to complete they should lose their upgrade priviledges? if they 'returned' complete they have NOT upgraded, they should be able to upgrade to something else. It isnt like you need to restock anything or put the electrons back on the shelves, is it?
Did your market research show that the best way to treat a customer who has a valid query is to ignore them? What a shame. In my experience companies that use 'The customer is always right' philosophy gain more respect and more business.

I've asked before and I'll ask again - if you dont know or dont have the authority to answer, forward the question to your superiors. I'll be happy with an informative and respectful answer here, by e-mail, on a forum, in a newsletter, by phone or any way you cant think of.

Thanks

Please add your comment and thanks for your time

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

So how much is complete, and what do you think a "fair" upgrade price on it to V7I would be?

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Attached Link: Full Price List

Gareee, The relevant prices are: Vue 7 inf upgrade from v6 inf $395 (new - $895) Vue 7 Complete upgrade from v6 inf $99 (new $599)

So you need to pay $300 more to upgrade to inf rather than comp. I would expect them to want a bit more if you dont go directly to infinite, as is their policy for other upgrades. So if I paid $99 for complete and then I want to change to infinite I would say anywhere between $300-350 would be fair.
But definitely not more then $395 which would have been the upgrade price if I didnt already pay them some for complete.
As I said their idea of 'fair' at the moment is to pay an $400 IN ADDITIOn to the $99 I already paid.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

But by your post above, isn't Infinite already almost $300 more then complete? I'm not clear on what you actually bought, what you upgraded to, and what you want to upgrade to?

From your last post, it looks like you paid only $99, and want to only pay $395 for v7I, when it's retail is $900, and that looks unreasonable to me, unless I'm reading it wrong.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I shouldnt have given the full price, it's irrelevant.
I have v6inf, If I upgrade to v7complete it costs $99. If I upgrade to v7inf it costs $395.
What I'm saying is if I upgrade first to complete and then decide I want infinite instead of complete, I expect to add the difference (approx $300) and a bit more(maybe $50) because I didnt get it directly. In total I would pay $450 to upgrade from 6inf to 7inf. It is an upgrade so I shouldnt pay the full price of $900.
(It is analogous to upgrading the lower versions of the artist line. You can get from esprit to complete by buying the modules, it is more expensive than buying complete directly, but not as expensive as paying for esprit and then paying full price for complete).

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

It is definitely a bad idea not to offer an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite. I for one have not bought ANY upgrade till now because of this, as I do not want to be stuck with a product that is not sufficient for my needs.

But e-on has already given in over a couple of other things recently, notably the decision not to include multiple undos in thr 32-bit version of Complete, so I hold out hope that an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite might appear if demand is sufficient.

Maybe the trial version of Complete will help settle things.

I would think if you did it in a reasonable period of time, day 30 days or so. But after a few months, or a year that wouldn't make much sense for eon, since people might be playing "sale" games trying to take advantage of them in that fashion.

And I do believe the retail price IS relevant. the bottom line to both the consumer and to Eon is how much you are paying for the product.

For instance, if you payed say, $100 for something and then paid $300 more to upgrade to a $900 application, people who purchased it at full price wouldn't be treated fairly.

Many customers (and I'm not pointing fingers at all) play sales tactic games all the time trying to save a few dollers, or scam a deal whenever they get the oppertunity.

I think in Eon's case, it's more them moving up to the prosumer users, and not wanting to deal with regualr consumers anymore, since they typically have far more service issues, and eon makes far less money on them. Other companies have done the same thing, and we're seeing a general shift "upward" in price on all 3d applications, and many companies find that while they sell bigger numbers with lower priced product, they also have a TON more support for that same reason.

Look just a few years back.. most 3d applications were $1000 or less. Today many have moved up MUCH higher in price.

BUT also look back about 10 years or so ago.. you couldn't touch professional 3d applications for less then $1500.. I remembe rlightwacve costing almost $2000 a t one point.. yet the dollar;s value has also decreased over the years as well.

Basiacally, many pro companies tested the consumer waters, found they couldn't make enough to cover very high developement costs, and much higher support costs, so they are moving back up into the more profitable professional markets, little by little.

While this doesn't have much bearing on upgrade costs, it does possibly indicate a lessened desire to work with the lower end consumer markets.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I side-graded from 6 Infinite to 7 Complete and am so far very happy with the product. I took this path for the simple reason that I can't currently afford the upgrade from 6 Inf to 7 Inf. However, had I known that I would become locked out of a furure upgrade to 7 Infinite then I would most certainly not have made any purchase at all. I can't say I am happy with the situation because I wanted to upgrade from Complete to Infinite as funds became available but that now seems to be impossible. I started out with 5 esprit, then 6 esprit, added the modules one by one until I eventually had 6 Pro studio and then made the jump from there to 6 Infinite. The release of Vue 7 caught me a bit by surprise and very low on funds, so I decided to take take the cheaper option and use Complete for a while as I saved up for the upgrade to Infinite. Big mistake apparently.

Quote -

For instance, if you payed say, $100 for something and then paid $300 more to upgrade to a $900 application, people who purchased it at full price wouldn't be treated fairly.

The $100 price for Complete is the Vue 6 Infinite upgrade price, so it's $400 + what you have paid for Vue up to that point.

In E-on's defence, they DID put up a comparison list between Complete and Infinite, so you would have known before buying what features you may have had in 6Inf and lost by 'downgrading' to Complete.

Gill

I think also you have always only been allowed to upgrade to one version of the program. I looked over both complete and infinite carefully, before deciding on infinite.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Me too.
My bank balance told me to buy complete but I knew I'd miss too many features if I went with it.

I do think this time around though that the upgrade price for Infinite was very steep
:b_upset:

Gill

I dunno.. when I look at how much everything else costs, it seems like its gone up pretty much the same.

My electric bills are about 50% higher then they were a year ago, and I'm sure Eon's are as well. I'm just glad the prices on everything else haven't caught up yet.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I'm so glad we took the protected fuel prices. Funny enough, our gas and electricity is supplied by Eon !!

BUT I'm going wildly off topic now so I'll shut me gob

Gill

Before you do, what are protected fuel prices?

Something else I thought of.. it could be that eon can't cancel a complete upgrade, which would mean it could be resold if someone upgraded to infinite from it in the same version.

Thier licenses are on the dodgy side.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Most fuel companies do a deal where you sign up and your prices are frozen for x years. I think my deal was 4 years. They're static till 2010. Which means I'm paying now what I was paying around 3 years ago.

I think I had to pay a one off fee or something like that. Long time ago...brain getting on in years....

You take the gamble because if prices go down, you still pay the higher rate. At the time prices were pretty stable but as they've gone up so much we were lucky.

As for the licencing thing.....I've never read up on reselling old versions. Something I wouldn't think of doing.

Gill

Ok, I'll try again and clarify what exactly is the issue I have a problem with.
Perhaps I'll first say what I am not arguing about.

E-on can decide on whatever pricing scheme they like. Perhaps they will make a killing, perhaps they will price themselves out of the market. Their business.
E-on does not have to lower the prices to fit the customers pockets if it means they will not be able to make a descent profit. They are not a charity, they are in it to make money. Not only is it their right and duty to their investors, owners, workers - it is their duty to their customers. If they go bust there will be no programs for us to use.
E-on can chose to cater to whichever customer base they chose. If they only want to cater to professional studios, not to ordinary artists or small studios, that's up to them. But They havnt decided that (yet?). They are promoting the artist line. They are making a big fuss about 'pioneer' and the ability to start with a free application and upgrade it whenever the customer sees fit. So, it is their phylosophy - you can start with a cheap program with few tools and upgrade to a more powerfull version whenever you want/can (not only within 30 days).
I agree that this is a wise policy the flexibility is good for the customer, allowing him to adapt his tools to his ability, and good for the company because it enlarges their customer base well beyond those who would have gone for the fully blown version directly. (Gateway drug so to speak)

My point is why stop this policy when you get to complete and not enable upgrade to infinite?

E-on will not lose any money, they will get extra money. In fact they will get more than they got from customers who purchased inf directly
Customers who bought infinite directly will not (contrary to Gareee's claim) lose anything comparatively.
Let me spell it out with an example:
John and Jane have V6inf. John paid $395 and got v7inf. Jane made an informed decision(examining the comparison list) to upgrade to v7complete and payed $99. After a while -whatever length of time- Jane's circumstances changed. She upgraded to v7infinite and paid an extra $350, They both now have only V7infinite. John paid in total $395. Jane paid in total $449.
How was John adversely affected? why is it unfair to him? he still paid less than her.
How was e-on adversly affected? they made more money from Jane's purchase than from John's purchase. No doubt it covers the 'restocking' cost?
On the other hand if the transition is not possible, either they would have only made $99 from Jane, or maybe no money at all if she thought that upgrading to complete is a dead end and didnt buy at all?

So how is a v7comp-> v7Inf not a win/win path?

PS Curious that vendors percieve customers as thieves and crooks first and formost- I havnt encountered this attitude since I left England:) Gareee, you can point as many fingers (and toes) as you like, but I dont see how on earth the scenario I suggested for the complete->infinite change can be seen as taking advantage of e-on. I would still pay more than if I went for 7inf directly, e-on would make more money. What kind of useless crook am I than?

PPS Thanks Richard, Rids and some others who PM'ed me for your contribution!

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

"PS Curious that vendors percieve customers as thieves and crooks first and formost"

I never said that at all.. thieves would simple go the warez route, and not even bother registering with eon.

But time and again, we DO see people in the forums here trying to resell products they are not allowed to resell, per their Eula.

Money is tight everywhere, everyone is on edge, and many people will do whatever they can to save a buck or two, legitimately or not.

But my point you missed, is that when you upgrade from 6xxx to 7xxx, you've done your upgrade. Eon considers your 6.xxx license no longer valid, which is in the paperwork that comes with Vue. So once you've upgraded to 7.xxx whatever, that's the one you chose, period.

Personally, I do agree with you.. there's no good reason I can think of not to allow a sidegrade from 7.xxx to 7.xxx, BUT if eon can't cancel an activated 7.xxx license, then it WOULD make sense.. then a customer would have both a valid complete and a valid infinite license, which they do not permit.

If it were me, I wouldn't have emailed them, I'd have called them on the phone. I did when I had issues activating and installing V7I.. the wait was minimal, and not only did they actually call me back twice to make sure I had what I needed within 48 hours, they also followed up via email to make sure that my install went through properly.

Its pretty easy to ignore an email, but much tougher to ignore someone you are speaking to on the phone.

At any rate, I DO wish you luck getting a sidegrade.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

The people at e-on are nuts for all these crippled versions of vue. What waste of time.

I think the entire price of this upgrade is wrong.

But let's face it... Vue has really reached it's limits and it's time is short. But the render times are terribly long...

I hope some new software comes along and takes its place soon.

Quote - But my point you missed, is that when you upgrade from 6xxx to 7xxx, you've done your upgrade. Eon considers your 6.xxx license no longer valid, which is in the paperwork that comes with Vue. So once you've upgraded to 7.xxx whatever, that's the one you chose, period.

Personally, I do agree with you.. there's no good reason I can think of not to allow a sidegrade from 7.xxx to 7.xxx, BUT if eon can't cancel an activated 7.xxx license, then it WOULD make sense.. then a customer would have both a valid complete and a valid infinite license, which they do not permit.

I know that once I sidegraded from 6 Inf to Complete my upgrade has been used up. If it wasn't I wouldn't have a problem, I could just upgrade again from 6 Inf to 7 Inf as my funds allowed. What this whole thread is about is e-on's decision to penalise those who took the sidegrade option and remove any further upgrade options. I have still paid e-on more money than anyone who just bought 6 Infinite outright (cost of 5 esprit, uprade 5 esprit to 6, cost of all modules, upgrade from PS to Infinite plus sidegrade to 7 Complete) so why should I be treated as less of a customer than someone who just wants to upgrade from 6 Inf to 7 Inf?

I don't see why there should be any technical reasons why people using the "Artist" products should not be able to upgrade to the "Professional" series, its just moving data around in a database and that really is not that hard. Personally I think they are purposely trying to create a two tier system so they can charge outlandish prices for Inf and Xstream in the future. With that in mind, I might just have taken the best route for me already by purchasing Complete, otherwise I may have ended up locked into an upgrade system that simply becomes unaffordable for the hobbyist. Time will tell but either way, they obviously don't want any more of my money.

Quote - - E-on can chose to cater to whichever customer base they chose. If they only want to cater to professional studios, not to ordinary artists or small studios, that's up to them. But They havnt decided that (yet?).

To an extent I think they have made that decision, and that's the real reason for the absent upgrade path (and why you aren't getting a straight answer). It seems to me that eon would really like to associate their product with major pro studios - as high end apps such as Max, Maya, etc. are. Their link with ILM was obviously very successful for them. The problem they have is that before the link with ILM, Vue was seen as a hobbyist app. This puts it in the same camp as, say, Poser - not highly regarded by pro studios (and the ability to import Poser scenes probably didn't help, reinforcing that hobbyist feel).

To get away from that hobbyist label, the obvious approach is to have one line for the pros and one for everyone else. Sure, they'll sell anyone the top-of-the-range version if you have the money. But it may be that they've taken a decision that v7complete is for hobbyists and v7infinite is for pros, and to allow upgrades from one to the other is blurring that distinction.

I'm not sure I agree with the thinking behind that, and I do feel that you should be able to upgrade in the way you want, but eon's long term plans are not known to us, and this may be the way they've decided to go. If so, look for even higher upgrade prices for v7i to v8i (and will there be a path for v7 complete to v8i?) and maybe the dropping of features unwanted by the pros, particularly Poser support, which must be quite an additional development burden anyway.

Steve

First, I would like to dissociate myself and my opinions from Vue/e-on bashers like Cobraeye.
If I thought Vue was a horrible product and e-on people are monsters I just wouldnt buy the product and wouldnt come to this forum. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy vue. It is because I love vue 6, (and even vue 7complete which is still riddled with bugs) that I'm trying to sort out issues I think are wrong.
I have been treated courteousely by the e-on staff both in tickets and by phone. Bug reports are answered quickly and most of those I reported were fixed quickly ( although they didnt make it to the latest update). However, with respect to the complete->infinite subject I get no real response. Politeness should not be confused with helpfulness...
Gareee:
"Personally, I do agree with you.. there's no good reason I can think of not to allow a sidegrade from 7.xxx to 7.xxx, BUT if eon can't cancel an activated 7.xxx license, then it WOULD make sense.. then a customer would have both a valid complete and a valid infinite license, which they do not permit."
I'm glad that once you understood my point you agree with me about the principle. Excellent. The technical issue of a license is not relevant. They dont claim its an issue and in fact they agreed that I could 'return' V7c even after a month and get a (too-small) discount on getting V7i. So they are not bothered by me having first a liscence for complete and than for infinite. Even if there was a problem, they are capable of solving it. They managed it with Esprit->complete upgrades they could manage it with Complete->inf upgrades. You give their abilities too little credit.
Rids:
"Personally I think they are purposely trying to create a two tier system so they can charge outlandish prices for Inf and Xstream in the future"
Spedler:
"To get away from that hobbyist label, the obvious approach is to have one line for the pros and one for everyone else....and to allow upgrades from one to the other is blurring that distinction."

I dont see anything wrong with having distinct artist &pro lines, it just should be possible to move from one to the other.
E-on may well have a hidden agenda they would prefer not to talk about, but users/potential users
dont have to assist them in keeping it secret. That is why I am not letting the issue drop, and why I started this thread. I'm putting to them a clear question and I want a clear answer - I think I and other users deserve one. I'll do all I can to get one.
It is a matter of principle.
In fact, I do not want at the moment to upgrade from complete to infinite. But I would like to have the option to do so in the future if circumstances change.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Thinking way back, I first bought 4 D'Esprit and sidegraded to Pro.

Then with 5 - I upgraded from 4 Pro to 5 Esprit, then sidegraded to 5 Infinite and kept with Inf ever since.

I think I ended up paying more than I would have done had I gone straight from 4Pro to 5 Inf

Gill

What i can see, when i look at the Vue price list, is one simple error from e-on's side ...

E-onsoftware should've never allowed an upgrade from Vue 6 Infinite to the Vue 7 Complete version at all !! Well (my opinion) for an owner of an "Infinite" version it just doesn't make sense anymore to upgrade or sidegrade from the "pro" version to any lower ranked version anymore, even it's being a product with the version 7 !?

For me as an owner of Vue 6 Infinite and being used to it's options and possibilities, even being trained to use those functions in my graphics, it never ever came to my mind, to go any lower again - it was just a matter of "WHEN" - when there was enough money spared, to be able to purchase the newest Infinite version upgrade ... !

And since i was able to check the available upgrade/sidegrade options in the released price list it was clear from the beginning, how my next purchase will look like ...

That's why i say, from a certain point of view, the availability of a 7 Complete to 7 Infinite Version doesn't need to be there - but with the sidegrade option from Vue 6 Infinite to Vue 7 Complete E-onsoftware is asking for trouble ...

Quote - Well (my opinion) for an owner of an "Infinite" version it just doesn't make sense anymore to upgrade or sidegrade from the "pro" version to any lower ranked version anymore, even it's being a product with the version 7 !?

That's true in the sense that everyone with v6i who wanted to upgrade at all would surely have wanted to upgrade to v7i. The problem for those who didn't was probably the price - eon set the upgrade price from 6i to 7i very high (IMO) and I also took a good hard look at 7complete before hitting the credit card for 7i. Eon could have simply reduced the cost of the upgrade to 7i on the basis that they would get more sales, but they chose not to. Since that must have been a deliberate decision, you have to ask why... and one possibiity is the intention, over the next couple of versions, to split the product line in two.

Quote - That's why i say, from a certain point of view, the availability of a 7 Complete to 7 Infinite Version doesn't need to be there - but with the sidegrade option from Vue 6 Infinite to Vue 7 Complete E-onsoftware is asking for trouble ...

Yes, agreed - potential trouble ahead. As I said earlier, it'll be interesting to see, since you apparently cannot do a straight upgrade from 7complete to 7infinite now, whether those owners of 7complete will have an upgrade path to 8infinite when it appears. If they can't... standby for a lot of complaints.

Steve

Gill,
So from your experience of starting with a low version and being able to upgrade to the top version,
was it good to have the option to "grow" gradually? or do you regret not going for the top version from the word go? I started with V6inf and I knew the lower versions were missing important features for me. Luckily I had the funds at the time. But if I didnt, I would have been happy to be able to learn some of the features while I'm saving for what I really wanted. That isnt the case for comp vs. inf.
The new features I wanted were the new clouds, the water editor and painting ecos from any directions. I'm happy to pay the upgrade price to complete for these features. At the moment I dont miss any of the extra's in inf, but maybe I will in the future. Thus I want to have to option to get inf.
Arraxxon,
Sorry, I cant follow your arguments even though I read your post several times.
Maybe for those whom money isnt an issue the route is obvious - buy the top product. Otherwise it depends what extras you get for the extra money. If you (or anyone) check the comparison list and decide complete isnt sufficient - by all means get infinite, I never claimed you should be made to go through all the versions in-between. 7Complete isnt inferior to 6inf, there are many advances, and those where enough for me at the moment. I may never want the extars of inf, but why shouldnt I have the option to purchase those in the future?
Why are you saying it was an error to allow v6inf->v7comp? who was it bad for? I'm happy. I wouldnt have bought 7inf. And what about those that didnt have 6inf and are coming up the artist line, why shouldnt they be able to move from complete to inf ?
Spedler
I agree that what happens in the future when v8 comes out is a very interesting point. I would think there should be a v8complete and ability to move to inf, I hope it isnt a dead end. I'll bring that point up too in my next communication with e-on. Thanks for pointing it out.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

I started with the low thinking it'd be enough then upgraded to Pro (I think at that point they'd added the plant editor to Pro)

In hindsight, I should have gone 4 Pro to 5 Infinite. It would have saved me money.

Talking of....money is an issue for me but I have the 'luxury' of being a vendor and had been squirreling bits of my earnings away since the last upgrade specifically to pay for the next one because I knew when it came out - I'd want it.
I'm doing the same thing now for 8

Gill

Quote by spedler - "That's true in the sense that everyone with v6i who wanted to upgrade at all would surely have wanted to upgrade to v7i. The problem for those who didn't was probably the price - eon set the upgrade price from 6i to 7i very high (IMO) and I also took a good hard look at 7complete before hitting the credit card for 7i. Eon could have simply reduced the cost of the upgrade to 7i on the basis that they would get more sales, but they chose not to. Since that must have been a deliberate decision, you have to ask why... and one possibiity is the intention, over the next couple of versions, to split the product line in two."

Spedler ... okay, you've got a point there - i must agree on that ...

I agree with this too and if the upgrade price had have been in line with previous years then I wouldn't have thought twice about it and just waited another month before purchasing. However, I do now expect the $400 upgrade price to become the norm for Infinite for future upgrades, so maybe I made the right decision after all.

ArtPearl - i just wanted to point out, that i was able to view the available upgrade/sidegrade options in the released pricelist and calculating on how long it would take me, to put the money aside to be able to pay for this upgrade from Vue6i to Vue7i ...
I could figure out rightaway, that there isn't any upgrade option from 7 Complete to 7 Infinite, so why should i even bother to buy a Complete version - even if i would have to wait a longer time, to be able to purchase Vue7i.
I don't say, it was a good decision from Eon to allow certain up-/sidegrades and others not - but the decision was made and the pricelist told me the fixed and only options.

I guess, there will be always problems coming up with programs, which exist in many different forms and to hook them up to those upgrades/sidegrades with a reasonable pricing system ... even counting in the date of purchase of older versions - far in the past or just right before the newest release ... not easy and for sure not satisfiable for each customer ...

Maybe E-onsoftware will be able to change their pricing policies with next Vue versions, after noticing, that customers have trouble with the existing upgrading/sidegrading system - but i'm not sure, if they will be able to change something in the existing pricing and upgrading style of Vue 7 now, since this could raise even more trouble with other buyers.

But, as always, they can't satisfy each and every customer.
Last time from Vue5i to Vue6i they for sure gave away bigger earnings by the decision, to hand out Vue6i for free, for updating or buying Vue5i close to release of Vue6i - surely hoping and trying to gain from this step, by having more Vue users on the "pro" Vue side (the more profitable...) in the future - but i guess that's the intention for all businesses all over the world ...

ArtPearl - i have to agree, if not for Vue 7 anymore, but then at least for a hopefully coming next version Vue 8 (who knows with the present sitiuation of the worlds economy being in trouble ...), they should consider a reworked pricing system and allow a Vue 7 Complete upgrade and a Vue 8 Complete sidegrade to Vue 8 Infinite at reasonable and fitting prices ...

Admitedly, I made a mistake, I looked at the cost of upgrading to 7 Inf and complete, scanned the feature differences and decided that I could live with Complete until I could afford to move back to the Infinite platform. I didn't even look to see if there was an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite, I just assumed there would be because there was always a path in the past. The new system though has totally isolated the artistic and professional series as there is no longer any upgrade path between the two, so if you don't already have 6 Infinite (and haven't already used up your upgrade rights) there is no way of getting 7 Infinite without paying the full price.

I completely agree (parodn the pun :P).
It's atrocious that there's no upgrade path there.

But as I've often said, I think they have made a mess, with far too many versions of Vue that are confusing for the user!
IMHO, Vue Pioneer should be free or just enough to cover their server / maintenance / bandwidth for it, to encourage wide uptake...or$50, I know they want ot make money but what is absolutley crucial, is USE RBASE. He who has widest use rbase (and are sitll happy with product) is King.

THen there should be Esprit, for about $150, and that would be the current "Pro" version.
Infinite should be $400, current price is bloody crazy!
And Xstream $700.

They are confusing users, and cutting into limited pockets far too much.

CobraEye,

Quote - The people at e-on are nuts for all these crippled versions of vue. What waste of time.

I think the entire price of this upgrade is wrong.

But let's face it... Vue has really reached it's limits and it's time is short. But the render times are terribly long...

I hope some new software comes along and takes its place soon.

Well there are ot many versiosn of Vue for too high a price at upper end.

I agree prices have been too high this time aorund.

Limits? what are you talking about? Vue's one of the best mid-range apps there is, for goodness sake.
Uh, no they aren't least not in Version 7. Even MAX etc can't jus thit a button and give you a rende rin 5 seconds.
Caveat, rela time rendering IS coming, but at moment it's INCREDIBLY expensive and cannot do complex scenes you cna make in Vue.

Oh great, cut your nose off to spite your face!
I don't use Bryce any more, but I sure as heck wouldn't be pleased if it was discontinued. A healthy market requires competition...you may have missed that bit, and I gain no pleasure from having folk who love an app or item, having it ruined for them.

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

"Do you think it's right not to have a 'complete'->'infinite' upgrade path"

I think it's wrong they even offer a Complete.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Quote - Infinite should be $400, current price is bloody crazy!
And Xstream $700.

With the current economy, I wonder how well Vue 7I and X are selling.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Quote - "Do you think it's right not to have a 'complete'->'infinite' upgrade path"

I think it's wrong they even offer a Complete.

And why is that? do you think that inf should be much cheaper so there would be no need for complete? do you think eveevery one should buy 7inf at their current price, and if they cant afford that, they dont deserve anything?

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

They should have stuck with Pro just as with previous versions. By raising I's price, they could make room for Complete to have a selling price. E-on is dividing and conquering itself without necessity. They already had the market (Bryce was selling for $6). So why trash on their existing/loyal customers? Anyway, what goes up has to come down. Microsoft is letting people and products go. So if they are hurting, much smaller companies are feeling the squeeze.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

It's more like what limits am I not talking about. There are too many to list. I feel that vue is old software doing it the old software way. I can't spend $1500 for a new spectral cloud system that takes way longer to render and is grainy, flickering, and causing weird shadow anomalies. Did I mention the constant crashes if you don't have the perfect workflow.

In fact I've spent more time trying to come up with workflows for this software,so it doesn't crash more than I've spent in creating scenes.

I am at my end with e-on.

And what's with the names like Pro and Complete and Infinite, etc when bump mapping doesn't work and normal mapping doesn't exist?

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Please, please, please, can you stay focused on the issue I've raised - with the situation as it is, with the versions as e-on has for sale, do you think there should be a path offered for an upgrade complete->infinite?
If you have other issues - you hate vue, you dont agree with the naming scheme, you're upset with bugs - all valid issues, start another thread, it's easy enough. I intend to use the content of this thread to continue my discussions with e-on, so the more to the point it is the easier it will be to present.
Thanks for your understading.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Should thre be an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite?

Definitely YES

Pnina,

Interesting thread you've started. FWIW-- here's my thinking on the situation.

First of all, you are correct. Any good marketing/sales person worth their salt would allow for an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite-- it just makes sense-- for now.

I believe there are possibly three reasons-- or a combination of the three- for not allowing it at this time:

There are some sort of shell game dynamics where allowing such an upgrade gives a certain group a distinct advantage over another group. I don't know what those groups could be, but I do know e-on gave away a free version of Vue Infinite 5 to Lightwave users who purchased a full version of Lightwave awhile back. If there is a scenario by which a 'workaround' can get someone a new version of Vue 7 Infinite for just the cost of an upgrade, I'm sure e-on would not want to share these 'shell game dynamics' with you or any other user.
There are significant serialization and licensing technical issues. Though I think this is a poor excuse, and could be remedied in time.

3 (my guess). It's clear e-on now wishes to create a professional line of products, one which is different from it's standard line-up of mostly small studio/artist type products. To do this, they need to change their business model-- make it very different from the past. They would like to create a product line which they can charge a premium price for, as it will be used by Hollywood FX houses and major animation studios. For these customers, price is not a big deal-- but service is. Thus the new service and upgrade policies. These customers, once they like your product, order dozens of seats at a time. Big business. Big dollars. Allowing them to start at a smaller product line (Esprit) and upgrade all the way to Infinite, might in fact cost them. For instance, 2 seats of Esprit for layout, 1 seat of Infinite for EcoSystem work, etc..

Now, think of Adobe Photoshop vs Adobe Elements. Of course there is no upgrade path from Adobe Elements to Adobe Photoshop-- but in fact Adobe Elements is mostly just a subset of Photoshop functionality. Similar problem.

So, e-on is trying to create a category centric focus for their product line, but they haven't done a good job in understanding their customer, thus the issue. Because, unlike Elements vs Photoshop, Complete and Infinite are very close in functionality-- and e-on supposed the standard users would not need the very few differences in features between the two. That was a mistake. But, they couldn't name Complete "Infinite" and Infinite "Vue Master Studios Only" because the fact is...Vue 7 Complete actually is missing a few features which Vue 6 Infinite has. So, thus a conundrum.

I suspect after taking a bit of time to reflect, e-on will do the right thing and provide an upgrade path.

All that said I have to ask why exactly are you interested in this issue at this time? Are you looking to upgrade right now Complete to Infinite? If so, my suggestion is you contact e-on in a personal way and see if they can't work with you.

Years ago, I wanted to purchase SketchUp, but didn't want to spend the whole $500 for the PC product and then another $500 for the Mac version-- so I called the company directly. Had a very pleasant chat with the head of sales, and he cut me quite a nice deal at the time for both products on the condition I didn't 'spread the word.' Course now, they're owned by Google and the product is free.

So, my advice is to keep a reasonable amount of pressure on this issue-- as you're doing now. If you're archiving these threads, please remove the loons (cobraeye and such) and I believe it will create a very nice case for an upgrade path-- which we should have :-)

Thank you chipp - well thought out and well presented arguments. Of course what I like best is your basic statement "Any good marketing/sales person worth their salt would allow for an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite" :)
As for your suggestions for why they did what they did

I dont care what games they are playing -their prerogative. But, they should still have a rational approach for their general policy for regular customers. I dont have to accept their argument 'trust us we know what we're doing'. As presented publically it makes no sense and I have questions about it. (Of course they can chose to continue to ignore my questions...)
Licensing is a technical question I know nothing about. It is supperficially a good excuse but doesnt stand up to scrutiny. They found a way with the rest of the upgrades in the 'artist line', they can find a solution here. It's a matter of policy and they can adapt the technology to serve the policy and not the other way around. (but you sort of agreed already it isnt a strong argument.
This is in essence what they keep saying - 'we have different lines now'. But why is it reasonable to assume that once you are in the 'artist' line you(or your pocket) will never grow enough to want to use the 'pro' ? and how can they lose by allowing the switch?

You asked why I'm interested in the issue - well, I was trying to decide which version (if any) I would like. It was clear almost from the begining I cant justify getting inf and there are sufficient new features in complete compared to v6inf for me to want to upgrade.
However there remained 2 issues - (1) if I try complete and it turns out I was wrong and I really need the extra features, can I move to infinite (2) if complete is OK for now but my needs and my funds change in the future, can I switch then.
After direct correspondence -via tickets and several phone calls- the first issue was resolved - within a month I can 'return' complete get my money back (minus $15 restocking fee) and get inf at the regular v6inf->v7inf price.
But after the first month, their 'best offer' is to give me a $400 voucher for buying v7inf. This means I'll have to pay $500 and if you add the $100 I already paid for complete it's a total of $600.
(compared to $400 if I didnt go for complete first). I'm sorry, that isnt an 'offer', it is a deterant.
I did try approaching them. I was very polite and fairly patient but it didnt yield any results
(They have just repeated this 'offer' this morning).
What I want is a reasonable way to move to infinite in the future, and to ensure I'm not stuck in a side line which doesnt get developed and there is no way out of.
I'm not really that hopeful, but I'll try to try all I can. In a day or two I'll collect/summarize the opinions expressed here and present them to e-on.
Wish me (and other customers ) luck.
Thanks for contributing everyone.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Quote - But after the first month, their 'best offer' is to give me a $400 voucher for buying v7inf. This means I'll have to pay $500 and if you add the $100 I already paid for complete it's a total of $600.

I don't understand. What voucher are you talking about? Are you saying there does exist an upgrade path, but it's just not priced correctly?

Here's my understanding based upon what's been said and what I read on e-on's website.

e-on allows you to either: a) update Vue 6 Inf to Vue 7 Complete or; b) update Vue 6 Inf to Vue 7 Inf.

In either case, you've used up your update. But, they allow you to switch your update pref from Complete to Infinite within 30 days of purchasing Complete.

After 30 days, you are now a 'Vue 7 Complete' owner-- just as if you've purchased it from e-on. As a Complete owner, there currently is no posted update path to Vue 7 Infinite.

The retail difference between Complete and Infinite is $296-$336 depending on download vs boxed. It's clear to me it wouldn't be a good strategy for e-on to upgrade for the difference-- you want to reward your users for picking the right package the first time, or else most will always choose the lower cost version. Any marketing person knows this.

So, the question becomes, how much difference does one charge?

You say:

Quote - their 'best offer' is to give me a $400 voucher for buying v7inf. This means I'll have to pay $500 and if you add the $100 I already paid for complete it's a total of $600.

Now, I'm assuming what you're saying is you can purchase a brand new copy of Vue 7 Infinte AND keep your Vue 7 Complete as well. But you'll have to pay the full price for Infinite minus the $400 voucher-- costing you $499. So, this is somewhere around a $200 difference between the retail difference between the two. Perhaps a bit steep.

Now that you're a Complete owner, (and given a grace period to switch)-- so, in e-on's mind it's not necessary to consider your $99 previous upgrade fee. I'm sure they are thinking they should have only one Vue 7 Complete to Vue 7 Infinite upgrade (now called 'voucher') fee and not have to deal with 'an upgrade from an upgrade.' I'm sure you can understand that.

So, if I'm reading this right, e-on has told you they will honor a $500 fee for moving from a purchased copy of Vue 7 Complete to Infinite. And, you get to keep Complete? If this is the case, then I believe $499 is perhaps a bit more than I would charge (actually $50-100 more), but not a completely unreasonable fee considering the facts above. Perhaps the reason for the higher price, is you still own a seat of Vue 7 Complete, which can be used-- and would be used in a studio environment.

best, Chipp

I didnt see it publicly anywhere. It seems to be their response to 'awkward' customers like me who ask about it explicitly. I know about at least one more person (I think it was Richard-craftycurate) . That got offered this deal.
If you upgraded to v7complete you immediately and forever lost your upgrade privileges. If you decide you want to move to v7 infinite anyhow they will give you a voucher worth $400 towards the purchase of a new (not upgrade) v7inf. So instead of paying the full $900 for v7inf you will pay 'only'
$500. As I said if you add the $100 you already paid for the complete version of v7 moving up v6->v7 will cost you $600 rather than $400 that anyone else paid to move up to v7inf directly.
This seems way over the top to me. I can accept their 'restocking' fee of $15 if you return complete, I can even accept double that, but an extra $200... it is not a serious offer.

(and the fact they dont say that this is their general arrangement in any official list/publication, also seems...well, underhanded?)

EDIT: I didnt see your latest post while I was writing this one. I dont want to purchase another version of v7. I only need ONE, I only asked for one.When you upgrade any of the other stages in the artist line they dont tell you to keep the version you have and pay for a completely new one (even with discount). Why should not the same policy apply to the complete-> infinite switch?
That was my original question, and it still is.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Pnina,

Quote - (and the fact they dont say that this is their general arrangement in any official list/publication, also seems...well, underhanded?)

Seems like good business practice to me to provide a solution for a customer who asks. See my post above about SketchUp. That said, I imagine they will have to at some time provide an upgrade path. I suspect they're waiting for a next version of Vue. I imagine they do not now, as it would certainly inflame those, like you, who disagree with the pricing.

As I said previously, they have provided you a path, just not one you are happy with. My guess is after 30 days, they consider you the same as a Vue 7 Complete purchaser, and do not worry about your $99-- especially since you did have a very generous grace period offer as well.

Certainly there's room in this discussion for varying points of view. As I said, I would like to see the voucher to be $50-100 more than it is. Assuming that, it seems fair to me.

best, Chipp

If the deal after a month is that they will simply give Complete owners a voucher for $400 towards the cost of a separate full copy of Infinite, then that means the customer is left with a copy of Complete for which they have no use and basically would then own TWO copies of Vue. That could be seen as generous on the part of e-on but also a sizeable waste of money for the Customer. Why they can't just charge an extra $350 and then cancel the Complete licence is beyond me.

Quote - If the deal after a month is that they will simply give Complete owners a voucher for $400 towards the cost of a separate full copy of Infinite, then that means the customer is left with a copy of Complete for which they have no use and basically would then own TWO copies of Vue.

While that may be true for you, it's not necessarily true of others. For instance, a small graphics studio.

Quote - That could be seen as generous on the part of e-on but also a sizeable waste of money for the Customer. Why they can't just charge an extra $350 and then cancel the Complete licence is beyond me.

Probably for the same reason Adobe doesn't allow upgrades from Elements to Photoshop. IOW, they're trying to build a distinction between the Pro line and the Artists line. I'm not saying it's correct, but I believe that is their reasoning.

Just so I'm clear. I don't see a good reason why e-on should should not provide an upgrade path to Vue Infinite from Complete. I think they haven't thought this through well enough at this time, but I believe they will at some time in the future see there is money to be made allowing Complete users to move to Infinite.

My stated points above are based upon trying to look at this situation from e-on's perspective.

Chipp, I think our opinions are very close actually. I do not see either why there shouldnt be a sidegrade from comp to inf, not only from the consumers pov but from e-on's. If they want to do better deals for larger companies they can offer discounts for quantity or even just for being a commercial company. I'm just comparing what I, an ordinary customer, could get. I could upgrade to inf for $400. and to comp for $100. Why wouldnt they want me to pay them the $300 differnce (or even $350) to get the sidegrade when I want to?
One of my main points is that it is their business model even now, you get what you can/want and then you go up the ladder to better versions.Just look how they push Pioneer to get people to start the climb. So why doesnt their logic apply to the top of the range?
I dont know much about photoshop's history - if it was never their concept or if they declared they are stopping it - I have nothing against them. e-on hasnt stopped. They are just inconsistent in applying their overall policy.
I just found out to my very big surprise that it does NOT cost more to buy the bottom version (esprit) and gradually work up to complete compared to buying complete directly. At least for the download version. Esprit, pro and complete cost $200,400,600 respectively (minus 1dollar). upgrading one level is $200 and esprit to complete is $400. I dont know why people keep claiming it is more expensive to do it in stages. So - by the same logic I should only pay $300 for complete->infinite.
I was willing to pay a bit more. But certainly not $500...

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Depends how you got there... When I bought esprit 5 it was more than the current $199 and then bought all the modules separately...

Vue 5 esprit = 250
Lightune = 40
Upgrade to esprit 6 = 80
Deep Access = 40
Botanica = 40
Ecosystems = 100
HyperVue = 40 (Final plugin changed status to Pro Studio)
Upgrade to 6 Infinite = 300
Sidegrade to Complete = 100

Total = $990

So to get back to Infinite from here would mean a total paid of almost $1500 for a $900 piece of software.

Interesting discussion. I think the main reason e-on is segregating the Artist and Pro lines is that they are on two different development and support trajectories. How would e-on for example handle the case where someone went from V6I to V7 Complete ($99) and then let's say 6 months from now, e-on comes out with a major .5 release as they have indicated (7.5 ???) they will do as part of the Pro maintenance agreement. What would be the updgrade price for V7 Complete to V7 Infinite then? If you made it too inexpensive, it would cheat those who are paying maintenance on V7 Infinite now. I think there is probably some middle ground here:

Increase the time frame from 30 days to 90 days on the updgrade choice trial period.

2. I think It's quite probable that e-on will put together some kind of special program at a future date to lure some Complete users into the Inifnite/xStream camp - probably at, or around the time of any .5 release. Maintenance on infinite for the .5 or any other major release I think is around $395/yr. I could envision some kind of special program, in the $400 ish range for this kind of move.

Quote -
Quote **chippwalters
**
Now, think of Adobe Photoshop vs Adobe Elements. Of course there is no upgrade path from Adobe Elements to Adobe Photoshop-- but in fact Adobe Elements is mostly just a subset of Photoshop functionality. Similar problem.

There is an upgrade path from Elements to PS.

Full price: $699

Upgrade to Adobe Photoshop CS4
Adobe Photoshop CS3, CS2, or CS Adobe Photoshop CS4 US$199
Adobe Photoshop Elements (Mac OS) 6.0, 4.0, or 3.0 Adobe Photoshop CS4 US$599
Adobe Photoshop Elements (Windows®) 7.0, 6.0, 5.0, or 4.0 Adobe Photoshop CS4 US$599

Via the upgrade root PS CS4 is cheaper.

Adobe has always allowed an upgrade to the full version of Photoshop from Elements for as long as I can remember.

I have V6I and I am also unsure about upgrading. I do not agree with not being able to upgrade from Complete to Infinite either and so probably will not upgrade at the present time until I see what is happening with this.

Rids
I didnt know about the previous pricing scheme. (I was lucky at the time, I just sold one of my watercolor paintings and used the money to buy v6inf directly). You're right - significantly more expensive.
However, at the moment it seems their underlying philosophy is 'get them in at the cheap rate and they can spend the rest later, no penalty needed, we still make more money'. So why not apply the same to complete->infinite?
dburdick:
The question of mainenance is not part of the issue I raised. I'm comparing upgrading to v7inf directly, without maintenance, to upgrading to v7complete and then to v7infinite without maintenance.
The second route should be possible and not significantly more expensive.
I am not asking for a better deal than existing v7i owners have, just a similar one.
I hope you are right that they will provide some solution to the problem in the near future - maybe opinions in this thread will help
janl:
Thank you for the info about photoshop, I'm glad even this presedece for 'no upgrade path' doesnt exist. And thanks for your info about not upgrading at all becuase of the 'no upgrade path' situation. Helps me show my point to e-on.
**

**

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Quote - There is an upgrade path from Elements to PS.

I stand corrected. I looked a while back and did not see this. Perhaps they too had a similar discussion. Thanks for posting.

Between the Upgrade Problems & the Pricing Problems, I start to wonder how many people work at e-on... ? And did most of e-on's effort go into the pricelist...?

This pricelist: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/buy/?page=2 seems wrong in more than 1 way.

I am working with Vue 7xStream at the office and have fallen in love with it.

Up until now working with the PLE at home has been fine. I could experiment, learn things and be OK with the fact that one can not use the files on any other computer and has the horrible watermark.

But the time has come where I want more :-)

Now I want to buy a "real" version for home use. I want to do hobby fun stuff AND also prepare stuff for the office while I am keeping the five rendercowfarm busy there and be able to use these files once I get back to work.

The missing upgrade path, where I could start with a smaller version and in time upgrade all the way up to the final version, is making me hesitate. I don't want to be stuck with a "smaller" and - in the end - unsatisfying Vue (esp since I know what the grown up Vue can do from working with it at theoffice). But also its difficult for me to just let go of the full price for Vue Inf at once. Maybe it's just psychological but I would prefer to pay 100USD a month adding modules until I reach the final version. And, no, I wont go to a bank and ask for credit for buying Vue. I would do this for a car but not for a hobby software. I would just not buy the software.

I understand that the current pricing scheme is targeted for big commercial studios and I am all for e-On to milk their cow and make even better vues. Sercive Agreements with 24h bug fixing and this kind of stuff will be worth alot for companies depending on the software. But private home users like me dont need that. And in this area I believe the distinction between home and business should be drawn. Not between "small" and "big" version of Vue.

That's my two cents

Quote - > Quote - There is an upgrade path from Elements to PS.

I stand corrected. I looked a while back and did not see this. Perhaps they too had a similar discussion. Thanks for posting.

I don't think any discussions have taken place. I had the very first version of Elements (I have forgotten its exact name now) several years ago and looked at this upgrade path to the then current full version of Photoshop.

I will be most unhappy if e-on locks out users from upgrading to Infinite. In the current economic climate this seems like suicide. I hope this is not the last version of Vue! :(

Art Pearl, can you or anybody else explain to me why you would want to upgrade to Infinite from Complete? The only differences I see in the 2 products is that Infinite has a few more trees, multi-pass (which I never use), some high end animation features (which I never use) and the ability to author VuePython scripts (which is the only reason I got Inifnite). Is there really enough of a difference to warrant spending some $400 ish on the move from Complete to Infinite? I'm just asking. I still think that e-on will provide a promotional-oriented path for an upgrade but I seriously doubt that many Complete users will take advantage of this. I could be wrong, but given that the practical functional delta is so small, unless you are professional, I don't really see an avalanche of demand for this other than the psychological comfort of having it available.

Dave,

The only 'killer' feature missing, IMO, is the bake to polygons-- but I don't even use that any more as the primitive renders are really fast and MUCH more accurate for metablobs.

dburdick, do SkinVue and other python scripts work with Complete? I could not work that out from the comparison chart when it first came out. On the product page for SkinVue it says Vue 7 Infinite is required and it does not mention Complete.

Dave,
I agree -at the moment there are not enough extra features in inf compared to complete to justify the extra money. However, things may change in the near or farther future. I am not sure if it is of general interest but these are the feature I might want:

-Control procedural terrain altitudes based on relationships with other objects
-The altitude of procedural terrains can be dynamically affected by other objects
-User definable geometry anti-aliasing    Up to 1024 rays/pixel   (well, more than 64)
-Control materials based on the properties of other objects
-Animation features
-Change interface colors/size of text (so I can see easier)
-Ability to reorganize the view panes
-Python scripting
-Python console for direct input of Python commands
-Python functions to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances
-Macro recording and playback to automate repetitive tasks

Some of these I would use right now(eg interface color), some I would use when I get more proficient (the procedural terrain and material control features), some I may want to use if I work a lot more with vue and need more efficiency (python, macro recording)

It is more a question of having options in the future than fixing something right now. Even if they claim inf is for pro's maybe I/others would like to turn pro?
Also worrying, as was mentioned already, what will happen when v8 arrives ? will the gap in features grow? will it be possible to change tracks then?

( I would also like to know when skinvue for v7 complete?)

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Hi Pnina,

Saw your post and thought I'd comment on some of these features. I think this might be helpful for others as well.

Quote - -Control procedural terrain altitudes based on relationships with other objects
-The altitude of procedural terrains can be dynamically affected by other objects

These two are currently new features for Vue 7 Infinite. I'm actually not sure how they might be used, but if I were really interested in creating stunning terrains, I would certainly look into GeoControl. Certainly these two features, at this stage, are not missed, as I know of no one who is actively using them.

Quote - -User definable geometry anti-aliasing Up to 1024 rays/pixel (well, more than 64)

This has been discussed on another forum. The general consensus is one would never use 64 rays/pixel in a render, much less 1024 rays/pixel. For the record, Ultra mode renders with a maximum of 28 rays/pixel. I don't think I've ever heard anyone rendering higher than that-- and if they did, the render would take forever. I typically max out around 12 for my print read renders.

Quote - -Control materials based on the properties of other objects

Another brand new highly specialized node which I have never heard used before. Perhaps Dave can lend perspective to this.

Quote - -Animation features

Which ones?

Quote - -Change interface colors/size of text (so I can see easier)

I agree, this is pretty good-- and IMO should be in Complete. That said, when I use Complete, I find it easier to use (for my eyes) than Infinite. Maybe it's just me.

Quote - -Ability to reorganize the view panes

I personally have never had the need. This does not mean others don't, it's just never came up for me before-- and I do a lot of modeling in Vue.

Quote - -Python scripting
-Python console for direct input of Python commands
-Python functions to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances

Complete can and will run Python scripts, as will soon the whole Vue line. They need to be first compiled-- which I personally object to. The Python console is used mostly for debugging existing scripts when authoring them. I hope to have my own VueTools available for Complete soon. I believe Dave is currently working with e-on to also have his SkinVue product as well.

Perhaps the only reason to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances via Python, is if you CAN program in Python-- which is certainly not for non-programmers.

Quote - -Macro recording and playback to automate repetitive tasks

An interesting feature, but certainly not one which gets a lot of attention. In fact, other than Mark (Monsoon)'s playing around with this feature, I don't know of anyone else who is actually using it. Certainly, not in any of the many Vue forums I pay attention to.

Hope this helps.

Best, Chipp

Quote - dburdick, do SkinVue and other python scripts work with Complete? I could not work that out from the comparison chart when it first came out. On the product page for SkinVue it says Vue 7 Infinite is required and it does not mention Complete.

Eventually, all Python scripts will be able to be run on all Vue platforms. I think e-on is just finalizing the way this will work on the Artist series platforms. So yes, SkinVue and other Python Scripts such Vue Tools, etc will all run on Complete and every other Artist product. The only reason I got Infinite was to have the ability to author Python scripts. Otherwise, I probably would have opted for Complete since I don't use any of the high-end animation features or multi-pass. I have only a small 2 computer render farm (3 when I can get my laptop running).

Quote - Dave,
I agree -at the moment there are not enough extra features in inf compared to complete to justify the extra money. However, things may change in the near or farther future. I am not sure if it is of general interest but these are the feature I might want:

-Control procedural terrain altitudes based on relationships with other objects
-The altitude of procedural terrains can be dynamically affected by other objects
-User definable geometry anti-aliasing    Up to 1024 rays/pixel   (well, more than 64)
-Control materials based on the properties of other objects
-Animation features
-Change interface colors/size of text (so I can see easier)
-Ability to reorganize the view panes
-Python scripting
-Python console for direct input of Python commands
-Python functions to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances
-Macro recording and playback to automate repetitive tasks

Some of these I would use right now(eg interface color), some I would use when I get more proficient (the procedural terrain and material control features), some I may want to use if I work a lot more with vue and need more efficiency (python, macro recording)

It is more a question of having options in the future than fixing something right now. Even if they claim inf is for pro's maybe I/others would like to turn pro?
Also worrying, as was mentioned already, what will happen when v8 arrives ? will the gap in features grow? will it be possible to change tracks then?

( I would also like to know when skinvue for v7 complete?)

Yes, I can see the now the concern about the 2 products - Complete and Infinite drifting further apart in the future with respect to functionality. Hopefully, this won't be the case. Given E-on's track record, I'm not too worried about this. On the Macro recording stuff for Infinite, you shouldn't be concerned about this as it is next to worthless for anything. I've yet to to be able to get it to work and frankly, I don't see any case where this might be useful. If anyone can show me an example of how Macro programming can be useful in Infinite, please share. The Interface colors issue should be a part of the Artist line although I personally could care less what the colors of the UI are as long as they aren't some hideous florecent colors.

I sidegraded from 6 Inf to Complete because a) it was much cheaper and b) the feature set contains pretty much everything I need (now). However, this may well change in the future. You only have to look back at Vue 6 to see how huge the differences can be and that can come from just one feature. Ecosystems in 6 Infinite and Pro Studio were two very different beasts, with the ability to paint them being a real deal breaker. If the situation should again arise, where the Infinite line has something that is vastly superior to the Artist line, then yes, I would see the need to upgrade but as things currently stand, I would be unable to do so.

I have submitted my ticket reply to e-on with quotes from this thread. I'm not posting here the whole thing becuase its a bit long but I've asked them to make the thread public so I dont have to keep up with the 'cut&paste'.
In any case, I'll update this thread with their response one way or another.

By the way, I looked more carefully at their 'best offer' of a $400 voucher I mentioned above. It said
"We offered you to return your copy of Complete and get a $400 discount on Infinite."

So from that it seems you CAN NOT keep v7complete in addition to v7 infinite. It is the same as an upgrade, you only have ONE v7 version when this is completed. So, as I said if you upgrade v6inf->v7inf you pay $400. If you upgrade v6inf->v7comp->v7inf you pay $600. Not a serious suggestion.
Chipp and Dave:
Thank you both for sharing your experience with the additional features. This is indeed helpful.
It's slightly disappointing that the features I considered most intriguing you find 'not needed' or 'useless'... I admit I dont do any animations at all so I certainly dont need the fancier features.
(In fact I wish animations was an optional module, and I wouldnt have bought it). But I might want to do animations at some point.
-Terrain control - obviousely I dont know how useful I would find it till I try. I cant use geocontrol - no version available for macs. In any case, vue is supposed to provide 'nature solutions', descent tools for creating terrain should be a central goal for e-on. I shouldnt need another program for that.
-Anti aliasing. You're probably right, I never did a systematic study of how much aa is needed, but I thinkI encountered cases I needed more than 12. What do you set the quality slider to ?
-material control - I like the function editor very much and I'm sure I havnt made full use even of what's in v6, but I think I would like this new feature. It comes under the 'strive to do better and harder things' category.
-interface & view panes: these are features I would have sworn I dont need. One color scheme/arrangemnet is quite enough, but why would they have to chose a bad one:)
The FE has very low contrast particularly for parts which arnt selected. The little parameter lines at the side of nodes are virtualy invisible to me, even when I hover over them. Really annoying.
-Python scripting: it is already on my list of things I really should learn. I was a programmer in my 'professional' life so it should be that hard for me to learn, just not enough time in the day.
-macro recording: it is most disappointing that you find it useless. Maybe I'm particularly dumb, but I always have to do things more than once. Sometimes due to crashes sometimes becuase I changed my mind about some aspect. I used to work with a molecular graphics program which wrote a log of your operations. This log was editable and you could just rerun it after omitting/changing the parts you wanted. I miss this ability - I was hopping this is going in the right direction.
None of those justify an extra $500, that's for sure.

Thanks again to all who contributed to this thread so far!

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Quote - Eventually, all Python scripts will be able to be run on all Vue platforms. I think e-on is just finalizing the way this will work on the Artist series platforms. So yes, SkinVue and other Python Scripts such Vue Tools, etc will all run on Complete and every other Artist product. The only reason I got Infinite was to have the ability to author Python scripts. Otherwise, I probably would have opted for Complete since I don't use any of the high-end animation features or multi-pass. I have only a small 2 computer render farm (3 when I can get my laptop running).

Thank you for your reply, Dave but does this mean the present SkinVue7 will work with Complete as it is now or do we need to wait for a different version of SkinVue for Vue Complete or wait for Complete to be updated with Python support? I am sorry if I am being dense but these new versions confuse me.

Perhaps the difference between Complete and Infinite is not too great at the moment for the average user but I am still worried that this gap will become greater with version 8 and I will be left with no way to upgrade if I go with the Complete version. I guess my customer confidence is rather shaky with the present actions of E-on and it is for this reason I am in no hurry to upgrade from V6 Infinite.

Quote - > Quote - Eventually, all Python scripts will be able to be run on all Vue platforms. I think e-on is just finalizing the way this will work on the Artist series platforms. So yes, SkinVue and other Python Scripts such Vue Tools, etc will all run on Complete and every other Artist product. The only reason I got Infinite was to have the ability to author Python scripts. Otherwise, I probably would have opted for Complete since I don't use any of the high-end animation features or multi-pass. I have only a small 2 computer render farm (3 when I can get my laptop running).

Thank you for your reply, Dave but does this mean the present SkinVue7 will work with Complete as it is now or do we need to wait for a different version of SkinVue for Vue Complete or wait for Complete to be updated with Python support? I am sorry if I am being dense but these new versions confuse me.

Perhaps the difference between Complete and Infinite is not too great at the moment for the average user but I am still worried that this gap will become greater with version 8 and I will be left with no way to upgrade if I go with the Complete version. I guess my customer confidence is rather shaky with the present actions of E-on and it is for this reason I am in no hurry to upgrade from V6 Infinite.

On the SkinVue question, it's the exact same product that runs on Pioneer thru xStream. The only difference is that for the Artist products, you use a run-only version of the script that will run with the run-only version of VuePython for the artist products. The functionality is identical. The only reason for having two SKinVue products - one for Artist and one for Infinite/xStream is how the Python code is compiled. The user will see no difference at all.

Just to finish this up - this is the result of my effort:
A day after sending them my last message with quotes from this threads I got a reply. They didnt refer to my request to make the ticket public so I'll cut& paste again their message and my reply.
I wanted to know if their suggestion is general so I asked what they think I should post in this thread. I have got no answer to that.
Draw your own conclusions.

Hi Pnina,

That's correct, if you want to do that, it would indeed cost you $200 more to go from
Complete to Infinite than buying Infinite directly. Likewise, it costs over $800 if you go from
Pioneer to Complete adding all the modules one by one

You are free to sell your copy of Complete to someone else for more than $400 if you like.
We're just offering to "buy it back" at $400 if you want to get Infinite.

BTW, the license of Infinite you get is a full license, it's not an upgrade! If we "buy back" your copy of Complete, you cannot keep it - just like if you were selling it to someone else.

We understand this is a big concern for you. Feel free to contact us again the day you want to move to Infinite and we will work something out for you.

Best regards.
Selena Porter

Selina,
Thank you for offering to sort it out for me when the day comes that I want to upgrade from complete to infinity. (obviousely I'm assuming that will be better than your current offer of a $400 voucher) .As I was also concerned how it will work when version(s) 7.5 or 8 come out I will assume your offer to sort it out for me will cover that too.
So for myself there is nothing more I can do but trust you will be fair and reasonable when the time comes. (I have no reason to assume otherwise).
However as you havnt really answered in general any of the questions I and other users raised in the renderosity forum, I wonder what you think I should say now. I promised to come back with information about your response. I can and probably will just cut &paste your reply, but if you have a more general message I could convey that.
Thanks
Pnina

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

I honestly don't think they are interested. They are obviously intent on completely separating the "Artist" and "Professional" lines, probably for paid support / subscription purposes and upsetting a few users in the process is just a minor inconvenience. My journey has taken me from Vue 5 esprit, through Vue 6 Infinite to Vue 7 Complete, which in total has cost me around $1500 - The chances of me paying another $500 to upgrade to 7 Infinite are exactly the same as me having a major lottery win.

It appears totally illogical to push Complete purchasers into a cul-de-sac with no reasonable option to move upto Infinite/Xstream..........why not just ask the difference in price plus a labour cost (e.g. difference plus $50 as previously suggested).

If e-on wish to diverge their products & service into two distinct categories, i.e. 'general-public' / 'professional-studios', I believe that it would be a wise business decision. Unfortunately the current situation does not strike me as the correct way of achieving this.

In my opinion there should be a logical, hierarchical range of products (Complete & Infinite are too similar) where there is a logical upgrade/sidegrade price between all products (perhaps limited to a two generation 'lifespan') which avoids any potential for clients feeling marginalised.

All individuals and businesses can then upgrade/sidegrade as they wish and when they wish (within the two life-spans limit, i.e. an upgrade price from Infinite 6 to Infinite 8, but not from Inf 5 to Inf 8....) according to their desires & circumstances (which can change very quickly!).

I would suggest to e-on that they are then at ease to focus their software subscription services to the professional studios: A yearly fee for each Infinite or Xstream seat entitles you to quick always-available support, and all upgrades/updates released during the year automatically provided as part of the subscription. This subscription model appears to works well for my provider of architectural software (ArchiCAD).

P.S. Just my opinion, but I find Vue Infinite reasonably priced for the complexity of the programme - the cost of ArchiCAD with the necessary additional software for it to better realise its potential is not far off 10x more expensive!

I think I have this right?

Vue 4 went professional with vue 4 professional. Then vue 5 had professional and infinite. Then vue professional died out only to be replaced with complete 2 versions later.

Seems very odd to say the least and a bit gimicky if you ask me.

The way I originally read it and the reason I sidegraded, was that Complete was Infinite minus the features only needed by studios. However, now it seems that Complete has been positioned with Pro-Studio and Esprit in the Artistic line rather than with the professional line. Also, it does seem extremely confusing (and misleading) for e-on to use the Pro-Studio name for a product which is aimed at anything but Pro Studios and calling a product Complete, when it has numerous features removed. I hope they know what they are doing at e-on, because I certainly don't.

Well, if we wait on purchase the price will come down. E-on can't be making money in this economy and is probably in the red.

The price of Poser 7 right now is $99. I paid way more than that. Let's see what happens with vue.
I'll wait for the sale if this is the way it's going to be. Consumers in the end have the Real Power ie. money.

E-on is crazy with these prices, upgrades, sidegrades, and strange named modules.

It is confusing and expensive to say the least.

I upgraded to professional to infinite only to downgrade to complete so I could be stuck with no upgrade/sidegrade options. That is ridiculous.

Coupled and compounded with paying for incremental updates to .5 etc. and it's just plain wrong.

OK ... maybe time for me to share a few more thoughts, as this issue is one I am following keenly.

I have Vue 6I but have not upgraded to any package as yet. There has been a lot of helpful discussion on a number of points. For example, which features would we REALLY miss by having Complete instead of Infinite? I have to say, now that multiple undos is available in all Complete versions, not a great deal. I like to customise my working environment heavily, but for $300 could live with something less flexible. Some extra plants is nice, but not critical.

So why not just upgrade to Complete and be done? My main reason, after much deliberation, has not turned out to be mainly about the feature sets of Complete vs. Infinite, but more about the trajectory of the Vue product line, as others have commented too.

If we are sensing E-on's desire to separate the Artist and Professional products and to reposition Vue in the Professional market, it may not be long before the Pro level tools start getting better quality development, debugging, support, and so on. It may even be that some new features, which turn out to be vital, may not make it into the Artist line at all. This may be more likely for a relatively small company like Vue, which is getting some linkups with the movie industry. The support packages are going to need staff time to deliver, so less time for the users who have forked out for cheaper packages.

I do not want to be stuck on carriage 4, if the front section of the train is uncoupled at carriage 3. We might not notice for a while, but sooner or later, the Pro section of the train will start to pull away and the gap will get wider.

So it isn't mainly about features for me any more - it's about future proofing. Vue is my main package at the moment (though I hope to afford XSI one day) and I want to be best positioned to ave the best version of it I can afford. Right now, I am without income, so have not upgraded into the Complete line, which is currently an upgrade dead end, frankly.

So I will not be upgrading for a while yet, unless I decide Vue 7I is a priority. Maybe the 7.5 price list will change my mind?

Anyways, that's my latest thoughts on this ongoing saga ... I hope e-on does offer an official Complete to Infinite path before too long.

Thanks
Richard

Richard, FWIW, I agree entirely with your appraisal & sentiments.

Too late for me, I took the Complete route when it was first released, so I am tied into it now. I'm currently on disability so the $400 price tag for the upgrade to 7I was never going to happen and to be honest, I just see the price of Infinite spiraling upwards, further and further out of reach with each release. So with that in mind, I am relatively content with my copy of Complete.

Here are the facts as currently known. There is an upgrade path for Complete 7 to Infinite 7

If you own Complete, then it costs you $895 - $400 (they'll pay you for Complete) to upgrade to Infinite. That's $495. For $495 you get 90 more SolidGrowth plants (including new Hi Def plants), which if purchased alone would cost well over $495.

plus you get all the upgrades from Complete to Infinite as listed at:

http://tinyurl.com/bqb4sz

Now, before you all complain about the lost money upgrading from Vue 6 Infinite to Complete then on to Vue 7 Infinite, remember, e-on did give folks a 30-day money back grace period before the PLE came out. Besides, how can a company actually start providing 'upgrade, then another upgrade' price lists?

So, e-on is specific about their two product lines- Pro and Artist. And, they give you a way to move from Artist to Pro as well. If it's not to your liking, then don't participate. That's the beauty of the system, you can vote with your wallet and/or your feet.

I just looked through the differences between Complete and Infinite and although the list is long, it contains little of interest to me. Most of it is made up of the features I never used (or needed) with 6 Infinite and the only ones of interest are those that only appear with the 7.4 update, which was not around when I purchased Complete. So when it comes down to it - do I really want to spend $500 that I can't afford, on features that I don't need?

As things stand now, I am glad I escaped the money pit that Infinite is fast becoming and while I thoroughly enjoyed my time with Infinite, its just become too expensive for this hobbyist. So by sidegrading to Complete, I guess I have already voted with my wallet. I just hope I don't have to vote with my feet when the next round of upgrades begin.

I'm not sure what you mean about the 7.4 update, but all bug fixes for Vue 7 Infinite will propogate down to Complete in time.

I agree with you, Vue 7 Complete has 95% of what I need. I do program in Python though and need Infinite for that.

Quote - I'm not sure what you mean about the 7.4 update, but all bug fixes for Vue 7 Infinite will propogate down to Complete in time.

I agree with you, Vue 7 Complete has 95% of what I need. I do program in Python though and need Infinite for that.

Check out the Comparison page (link), and look down - there are many references to "With 7.4 Update" ... which includes (Infinite only unless stated):

Multi-processor EcoSystem population
Paint material distributions at the surface of terrains (both)
Import, view and edit distribution maps in the Terrain Editor (both)
Terrain effects optionally affect material distribution map (both)
Multi-processor procedural terrain construction
Hide objects from render and disable lights by clicking their icon in World Browser
Multi-processor panoramic rendering
Sky preview with clouds
Realistic MetaCloud preview
Dynamic plant display optimization
Support for Sketchup 7 (Win 32 only)

I noticed it in passing, but sounds like a few new things are going to appear before 7.5.

Well, I really dont have anything new to add, I expressed my opinion and quoted e-on's response', I thought that will be it. But it's too annoying to see the thread go backwards...
Chipp,

Quote - Here are the facts as currently known. There is an upgrade path for Complete 7 to Infinite 7

If you own Complete, then it costs you $895 - $400 (they'll pay you for Complete) to upgrade to Infinite. That's $495. For $495 you get 90 more SolidGrowth plants (including new Hi Def plants), which if purchased alone would cost well over $495.

plus you get all the upgrades from Complete to Infinite as listed at:

http://tinyurl.com/bqb4sz

You're explaining why infinite is better than complete, and why it is worth more money. This isnt the point. The question is why is infinite worth more if you first purchased complete rather than going directly from v6inf to v7inf. You dont get more features/content by going through complete so you shouldnt pay that much more, only the 15% 'restocking' perhaps.

Quote -
Now, before you all complain about the lost money upgrading from Vue 6 Infinite to Complete then on to Vue 7 Infinite, remember, e-on did give folks a 30-day money back grace period before the PLE came out.

I havnt committed a crime or made a mistake, for which the grace period would be relevant. I'm talking about going up in stages, complete was OK for me when I bought it. I read the comparison list and counted my money. No regrets, no second thoughts. What I was enquiring about is a way to move complete->infinite at a later stage(not time limited) if they added new features to inf but not comp (as they seem to be doing already in 7.4) or if my circumstances change - I have more money or I now need the additional features. I dont want it for free or for less than the direct route, just not a ridiculously exorbitant price.
This works for esprit->complete (with no time limit and no extra costs at all for going the indirect way) why shouldnt it work for complete->inf?
(BTW- there still isnt a PLE version of complete, even though I was advised to wait for it as it will be 'out a few days after the Inf PLE')

Quote -
Besides, how can a company actually start providing 'upgrade, then another upgrade' price lists?

The same way they provide a list for esprit-> complete. I cant see where the problem is?

Quote -
So, e-on is specific about their two product lines- Pro and Artist. And, they give you a way to move from Artist to Pro as well. If it's not to your liking, then don't participate. That's the beauty of the system, you can vote with your wallet and/or your feet.

Sorry, are you saying I should buy it or not buy it but keep quiet? 'Like it or lump it'? Really? Why? If unsatisfied customers or potential customers keep quiet how is e-on going to know what they find objectionable? Of course I use my wallet to vote with. But it isnt mutually exclusive - I'll buy what I want AND I'll let e-on, and every one else interested, know what my opinion is. Of course e-on can chose to ignore me, my opinions and my wallet...
I did not start the thread in order to bad mouth e-on. I wanted to gather feedback from other people as backup to my conversation with e-on. If people still have something to say publicly why shouldnt they?

I realize vue gives you and many users (including me, actually) a lot of pleasure. Maybe you are as happy as could be with the product and the company. I did not intend to offend any of you or convince you to feel otherwise, and I said in the OP happy users with inf do not have to participate. But neither vue or e-on are holly cows, one can criticize them without being considered a stoning-worthy heretic, no?

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

C'mon Pnina,

You're beating a dead horse. You've explained your position here over and over. My point is THERE IS AN UPGRADE PATH. The fact you don't like it is fine. And obvious.

As I said, the upgrade from Complete to Infinite contains not only other features, but also a plethora of solidgrowth plants, which in themselves are worth the difference. I am sorry the upgrade isn't cheap enough for you to find value in. It is of course a personal decision which everyone must make themself.

You certainly have a right to not be happy, but the facts are-- it is what it is. I doubt complaining about the same thing over and over will have any effect-- other than put you in company with regular discontents who are routinely ignored.

Chipp,

I have nothing new to add. I suspect you dont either. So perhaps we should both leave it alone now? If anyone else has something additional/new to say they should feel free and welcome to do so.
I had a practical purpose in posting this thread and it surved the purpose for me as well as being informative for other people. If you think that is the same as beeing a chronic complainer - not much I can do about it, ignore me if you wish.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Quote - You're explaining why infinite is better than complete, and why it is worth more money. This isnt the point. The question is why is infinite worth more if you first purchased complete rather than going directly from v6inf to v7inf. You dont get more features/content by going through complete so you shouldnt pay that much more, only the 15% 'restocking' perhaps.

That is an opinion, not a statement of fact. Just as if one purchased a car, drove it off the lot, then wanted to trade it in 6 months later, one could also be of the opionion they shouldn't have to pay more than a 15% restocking fee, but the facts are much different.

The facts are there are now two distinct Vue product lines. One for Artists and one for Professionals. This is how e-on has decided to market their products.

They want to provide an affordable product line for artists, which is in line with their existing pricing models. And they now want to provide a professional suite of products which have a support subscription model including twice a year feature updates (hence 7.5). This is no surprise as it is in line with how the professional 3D market currently works. e-on understands while the margins for professional marketed products are larger, so is the expectation for service and robustness, thus the focus on support packages.

They are also of the opinion, if a professional needs the added features of Infinite or xStream, they will pay for them. Same is true for Adobe, Autodesk and many other high-end professional applications who have products priced in the over $1K range.

Your original posts were informative and did lead to the agreement from e-on to consider allowing Complete users to upgrade to Infinite for $495. That was helpful and clear.

Izaro posted earlier:

Quote - In my opinion there should be a logical, hierarchical range of products (Complete & Infinite are too similar)

and Richard (craftycurate) also posted:

Quote - I hope e-on does offer an official Complete to Infinite path before too long.

to which I responded in the post you took so much offense to. My point was to point out both e-on's current product path lines as well as the fact they do have an upgrade policy. There was no need for your harsh rebuttal as I was only offering information and statement of facts.

I apologize for the perceived harshness, non was intended, but not for the content. I will leave the rest to the wise judgment of the readers.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

I feel very uneasy about what e-on have done and do not agree that it is in line with what other companies are doing.

Firstly, to upgrade from my V6I to V7I will cost me almost twice as much as it did to upgrade from V5I to V6I. The only option is to upgrade to Complete and accept a 'downgrade' in certain areas and be stuck with this line for ever more unless I pay a further 'fine' to upgrade to Infinite.

Secondly, they seem to provide no option to upgrade from earlier versions of Vue so if I skipped this upgrade then it looks like I will have to purchase Vue from scratch if I wanted Vue 8. Adobe has been mentioned a lot in this thread but Adobe allows people to upgrade to CS4 from CS3, CS2 or CS for EXACTLY the same price. They even have special upgrade offers for people using PhotoShop Elements 7.0, 6.0, 5.0, or 4.0 (3.0 for Mac) all at EXACTLY the same price.

E-on have got us. We either chose a way to upgrade before the next version comes out or we are out of the loop forever. I do not think this is good ethics for software in this price range.

It would have seemed to be much better to me to be able to upgrade to V7I for about the same price as I did last time and keep all of the features I have in V6I plus the new features to make the upgrade worthwhile. They should have then named their professional versions something else and charged any amount they wanted. However, I cannot agree with the way they are doing things at the moment and is the reason I feel very unhappy about even upgrading from V6I.

Quote - E-on have got us. We either chose a way to upgrade before the next version comes out or we are out of the loop forever. I do not think this is good ethics for software in this price range.

I did not know this. Can you please point me to this fact as posted at e-on or in a newsletter?

Can you point me to a price list which includes the price to upgrade from V5I to V7I?

I can show you one for upgrades to Photoshop on the Adobe site.

I asked a simple question, which you did not answer. You stated,

Quote - We either chose a way to upgrade before the next version comes out or we are out of the loop forever.

I assume by your lack of response, you have no such knowledge, though you state as fact an apparent unknown.

That said, it's clear from this thread, and Pninia's timely questioning of e-on's representatives, e-on is approachable regarding upgrades. Even though no upgrade price is posted, I suggest you take it up directly with an e-on sales rep, and perhaps, with the right tone of voice, e-on may accomodate your request.

Quote - It would have seemed to be much better to me to be able to upgrade to V7I for about the same price as I did last time and keep all of the features I have in V6I plus the new features to make the upgrade worthwhile. They should have then named their professional versions something else and charged any amount they wanted.

These are very good points. I agree.

Aghhh, I have lost two versions of this already!

Briefly, Chipp you seem to be very defensive.

You quoted me out of context. I said:

"they seem to provide no option to upgrade from earlier versions of Vue"

Adobe state the options clearly on their website. It is possible to upgrade from 3 or 4 previous versions at exactly the same price as upgrading from the previous version of Photoshop and it was you, by the way, that compared Vue to Photoshop in the first place!

I would like this option with Vue as I am not happy with the way things have been done, but it is not mentioned on their website and thus, it seems that it is not encouraged. I wondered if you had seen it on their website and could point me to it but obviously you cannot so I have already written to E-on asking them about it.

Quote - Even though no upgrade price is posted, I suggest you take it up directly with an e-on sales rep, and perhaps, with the right tone of voice, e-on may accomodate your request.

I was not aware there was anything wrong with my tone of voice and I am sorry if I have come across that way. I enjoy Vue and wish to continue with it but I am voicing my concerns in this thread as this is what this thread is for and I agree that there should be an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite. I guess everyone has an attitude problem if they are unhappy with the way e-on has done things. shrug

Quote - Briefly, Chipp you seem to be very defensive.

I was not aware there was anything wrong with my tone of voice and I am sorry if I have come across that way. I enjoy Vue and wish to continue with it but I am voicing my concerns in this thread as this is what this thread is for and I agree that there should be an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite. I guess everyone has an attitude problem if they are unhappy with the way e-on has done things. shrug

Yes, I suppose it does appear I am being overly defensive. Sorry about that. And just so we're on the same page: There is an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite.

Quote - And just so we're on the same page: There is an upgrade path from Complete to Infinite.

There appears to be an unofficial route to upgrade at the moment but this upgrade route should be on their website. Who knows whether this upgrade path will be honoured in 6 months or a years time? The way things are at the moment, with unwritten agreements, just seems very wrong to me. Developing and maintaining customer confidence should be one of their priorities too.

As for lack of upgrade options from earlier versions, e-on don't appear to be alone in this respect. I was a Carrara 5 pro user and missed the 6 pro upgrade because it never seemed to become stable but now that 7 pro has been released there appears no route to upgrade from 5 pro, so I am, as you say, out of the loop.

I am glad that there is "currently" an un-publicised upgrade route from Complete to Infinite for those who wish (or can afford) to take it but the question is, how long will it be there? Currently, I don't have any need to upgrade as the extra features that Infinite provides are not ones that I require, plus the price is far more than I can currently afford (on disability at the moment) but should I need to upgrade to the Infinite (professional) platform at a later date, will there still be a route available? This has been my worry all along, that they seem to be intent on removing the upgrade route from the Artist line to the Professional line, which I think is wrong and until they provide an official, published upgrade path, nothing has changed - that worry still remains.

Attached Link: Digital Arts

Rids, regarding Carrara, I am sure I saw in the Daz forums that it is possible to upgrade to Carrara 7 from 5 for the same price as upgrading from 6. However, if you want Carrara 6 Pro it is available free on the cover of Digital Arts Magazine this month.

I received a reply from E-on about the upgrade.

V7I costs £648.16

V7I upgrade from V6I is £286.06

V7I upgrade from V5I is £503.32.
This is an special offer price which expired at the beginning of February but they are still willing to sell it for this price.

Upgrade from V5I to V6I to V7I would cost me £466.28 (This is the exchange rate at todays rate but in effect would be much less as the pound was much stronger when I actually purchased V6I)

Therefore, if I upgraded from V5I to V7I it would cost me more than it would to upgrade from V5I to V6I to V7I even with the special price.

Quote - Rids, regarding Carrara, I am sure I saw in the Daz forums that it is possible to upgrade to Carrara 7 from 5 for the same price as upgrading from 6. However, if you want Carrara 6 Pro it is available free on the cover of Digital Arts Magazine this month.

I think it is a full version, valid as a starting point to upgrade to 7 / 7 Pro. In other words, by waiting, DAZ granted people a free upgrade step... this is caring about customers.

Bye!!!

P.S.: self imposed posting ban suspended ONLY to provide a generally interesting notice to everybody tired by E-On behaviour

Signed: a Carrara 7 newbie :sneaky:

GIMP 2.7.4, Inkscape 0.48, Genetica 3.6 Basic, FilterForge 3 Professional, Blender 2.61, SketchUp 8, PoserPro 2012, Vue 10 Infinite, World Machine 2.3, GeoControl 2

Forum: Vue

Subject: Do you think it's right not to have a 'complete'->'infinite' upgrade path

Thanks

Saw your post and thought I'd comment on some of these features. I think this might be helpful for others as well.

Another brand new highly specialized node which I have never heard used before. Perhaps Dave can lend perspective to this.

Which ones?

I agree, this is pretty good-- and IMO should be in Complete. That said, when I use Complete, I find it easier to use (for my eyes) than Infinite. Maybe it's just me.

I personally have never had the need. This does not mean others don't, it's just never came up for me before-- and I do a lot of modeling in Vue.

Perhaps the only reason to add, modify and remove EcoSystem instances via Python, is if you CAN program in Python-- which is certainly not for non-programmers.