I've been working on a clothing outfit for V4 rigged for Poser, based on an outfit from the Sacred 2 computer game from Ascaron Entertainment.  Since this design derives from their work, I need their permission in order to distribute it.  They are probably going to say yes, but if you want to help make this item available to everyone for free, show your enthusiasm and support in this thread at the Ascaron Sacred 2 official forum:
http://forum.sacredeng.ascaron-net.com/showthread.php?t=57163

Some samples:

Thanks!
 

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PS many WIP images and other information can be seen in my gallery.  Thanks!

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very cool thanks and the link to the other thread too

they'll wanna burn me at the stake for saying this, but, judging by the amount of work that musta went into this, ya should sell it.  second render above is as near-photo realistic as poser7/pro can get IMVHO.  once they release poser 8 with improved GIvariables, then it'll be even better.

I can't sell it :) and in any case I never wanted to.  I can sell other stuff :)

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stunning work, I will have to go register to add my support over there

WOW :woot:

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

I second that "Wow"!!

Great looking mesh!
I like the way that you sprinkled little bits of side information into you WIP thread!

(:

all I can say too is WOW............holy generosity. This is an incredible piece, I joined and signed the request. Holding on and waiting for the response along with every1.
Best of luck to you on this, would be awesome if you ended up with a full time gig making their outfits etc.......with that piece odds are in your favor.

Thanks a bunch for the freebie offer it looks awesome.
Nams

 wowza! love it :D

I can't help but wonder why your freebie would not qualify as "fan art."  I understand if they have copyrighted everything, including however their electronic characters smell... But, there's a certain leeway usually given for "fan art" and I don't see the problem with releasing it along those lines.  I don't know if they'd say "Yes" if you asked.  It might be one of those things where they wouldn't mind if you didn't ask but, because of legal instructions (to reduce complications), anyone that asks to get an OK on fan art gets turned down.

You own the mesh.  They own the likeness from which it was derived.  You can distribute the mesh however you wish.. BUT, you can't distribute the likeness of their character (which would count the mesh) except within their usage limitations.  I would doubt they would restrict fan-art.  However, you certainly would not be allowed to use their name or their character's/armor's name when distributing anything - Things with "words" in them hold special power and nobody would want to mistake a piece of "fan art" for being an officially supported product simply because it had a series of words which is used by the company. (ie: Distributing a box of salt that say's "When it rains, it pours" and NOT being licensed by the Morton Salt company implies your product is somehow associated with that company because of the use of a copyrighted slogan.)

I'm not an attorney and don't deal with "Fair Use" or artistic copyrights very often.  So, I could simply not know wtf I'm talking about.  The above commentary is worth exactly what you just paid for it.  :)

Good luck though!  Great mesh and outstanding renders! 

To me this is an obvious copyright matter.  It doesn't make any difference if you're selling the result or giving it away for free, and it also is not right to assume moral high ground just because a lot of other people ignore copyright law when doing this kind of work.  In its simplest form, copyright is "the right to copy", which is always retained by the originator.  I may own this mesh, but I do not have the right to distribute it (provide copies) because it is an obvious derivative work from the design in the game - that was the whole point of the project!

This is all very basic application of copyright law, although many people ignore it because they find it inconvenient or they simply can't take the trouble to look into how it works.  As you noticed, they own (they hold the copyright to, more specifically) the likeness from which was derived - this means I cannot distribute the mesh however I wish.  It is not complicated*. * Fan art is not exempt, it's just that this aspect of the law is so commonly violated that it's hard for all the wronged parties to enforce it.  That doesn't mean it's legal or ethical to distribute derivative works in the name of "fan art" without permission!

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

What Is Copyright

Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U. S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

• To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
• To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

[...]
 

So yes, you simply do not know wtf you're talking about (meant in the friendliest way possible). :)

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Update: the final version of all the model files has been submitted to Ascaron and is pending their review and hopefully approval.  Thanks for all the enthusiasm and support!

A couple of material options I added...   Fishnet leggings in the Kommando scheme:

And in the Purity scheme:

And an assortment of poses to hide various materials for more flexibility (many more combinations than just these two):

Enjoy :)

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Quote - To me this is an obvious copyright matter.  It doesn't make any difference if you're selling the result or giving it away for free, and it also is not right to assume moral high ground just because a lot of other people ignore copyright law when doing this kind of work.  In its simplest form, copyright is "the right to copy", which is always retained by the originator.  I may own this mesh, but I do not have the right to distribute it (provide copies) because it is an obvious derivative work from the design in the game - that was the whole point of the project!

This is all very basic application of copyright law, although many people ignore it because they find it inconvenient or they simply can't take the trouble to look into how it works.  As you noticed, they own (they hold the copyright to, more specifically) the likeness from which was derived - this means I cannot distribute the mesh however I wish.  It is not complicated*. * Fan art is not exempt, it's just that this aspect of the law is so commonly violated that it's hard for all the wronged parties to enforce it.  That doesn't mean it's legal or ethical to distribute derivative works in the name of "fan art" without permission!

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

What Is Copyright Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U. S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

• To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
• To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

[...]
 

So yes, you simply do not know wtf you're talking about (meant in the friendliest way possible). :)

I tend to include such statements like that as a disclaimer - humorous but, counting just enough as a disclaimer to qualify as such.

You may have skipped over this part of my post -   "...You own the mesh.  They own the likeness from which it was derived.  You can distribute the mesh however you wish.. BUT, you can't distribute the likeness of their character (which would count the mesh) except within their usage limitations. ..."

There are a lot of online game companies out there and plenty that appreciate promotion of their game by fans.  In my post, I added a scenario, one which I have personally witnessed several times - "You can ask but, if you ask, I'll have to tell you "No."  I've seen it happen countless times in EQ/SWG/Diablo/WOW/DDO..and just about every mmorp/online game I've ever played. (Don't want to run out the interwebz ink listing all my excuses for not having a RL in the past :) )

I hope you get an official authorization.  However, I don't think they'd be willing to expose their copyright by giving any "official" answer to the affirmative regarding your request.  **I hope they do. ** However, if I were their attorney, which I am not (nor am I a student of Law), I would have advised them to decline any official sponsorship of third-party fan-art (in effect, what your art would become) beyond what limitations they have already set up for fansite kits, art contests and other "Officially Licensed" endeavors.  Every exposure to question weakens the strength of the copyright.  If they always say "No" it's unmistakeably ironclad.

Then again, smaller game companies love free advertising provided it is within acceptable conditions.  They may gleefully back your freebie with an official endorsement.  When 989 was cresting the wave of E.Q., fan-promotion was rampant.  However, in order to expand it was necessary for SOE to take an increasing role and the paperwork began to fly along with "The Vision."  Similar stories are spun around other MMORPG/GameCo's.

Best of luck!  I hope you get their official permission.  For what it's worth, you ARE doing the right thing by going to the creator of the original likeness in order to legally obtain a right to distribute it.  Many creators take "Fair Use" and "Fan Art" very broadly.

I didn't skip any part of your post - it's really much simpler than you're making it.  Any reasonable person looking at my mesh would recognize that it derives from Ascaron's design (hopefully) - whether I put any label on it is not of any importance.  You don't have to be a lawyer to read and interpret copyright law, it is very plainly worded.  So is "fair use", and freely distributing a piece of work that is essentially an outright copy of someone else's copyrighted work does not fall within fair use.  Legally and ethically, I can't distribute this mesh at all without Ascaron's permission.  I can show some sample images of my work, which falls under fair use doctrine pretty plainly - but I can't pass around the model.  I encourage any who who have not read the public information on copyright.gov to do so, this stuff is not rocket science.

Again, just because a lot of people do this in conflict with the way copyright law reads in plain English, and just because some entities fail to enforce it for whatever reason, does not mean it is legal or ethical to distribute derivative works without explicit permission from the copyright holder!  Since Ascaron gave me a tentative OK before I even started this model (yes I actually asked them in advance) I have every expectation that they will allow it - but if they decline, well, it's their intellectual property.  In any case I've learned some valuable modeling and rigging technique that I will use to my own benefit on other projects.

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keeping my fingers and anything else I can that this gets approval hun. WTG on the fish net great addition to an already great outfit.

PS Not to be snide to the original ? poster.........I think it is honorable that you asked for permissions and have no ? as to why you would ask, its only common courtesy.

Hugz
Nams

edit re one additional comment to make.

At svdl's excellent suggestion, I added a material zone for leggings trim, useful for the fishnet scheme:

It's a good thing there were already polygons in the model that supported this, otherwise I wouldn't have done it.  Purity version:

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Bah I guess I should do the same for the pant cloth and the belt :/

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Done:

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I fail to see why you think we are in disagreement. 

My focus is only in regards to how your request may be received by the copyright holders and their likely response along with appropriate reasoning surrounding their motivations. ie: Do not knowingly and willfully expose the copyright to challenge.

However, I do hope that you obtain official permission to distribute your mesh.  It's possible that you may for the reasons I stated in an above post.  If they deny it, it will be out of a desire to adopt a standard practice of protecting against infringement and not anything specifically to do with your efforts.  That is common practice.

Good luck!  I hope they authorize your mesh.  Even if they don't, you can still contribute to the fanbase of your game and this mesh by continuing your great renders.  Who knows, maybe your work will inspire them to make exceptions?

You know, I'm not normally into this kind of stuff, but I have to tell you: this is amazing work. My congratulations on a job excellently done.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Sean maybe you can give me some direction for a future project (probably the next one) :)

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Drooollllllllllllllllling over here!

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Update:  Carolyn Hacker (Ascaron's Community Representative employee) has passed along that I have been granted permission to distribute this model, with these restrictions:

• This permission is granted for non-commercial use only
• "© Ascaron 2009, this Poser model is based on the original Seraphim character from the game “Sacred 2 – Fallen Angel”"

I'll have it submitted to freebies here presently :)

Thanks everybody for your support and enthusiasm!

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Submitted and pending approval :)

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Wonderful to hear and congrats on the permission lol
Can't wait.
Huggies
Nams

Downloaded. Thanks !!! :woot:

(obviously following the link 'at the other side')

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

Quote - Update:  Carolyn Hacker (Ascaron's Community Representative employee) has passed along that I have been granted permission to distribute this model, with these restrictions:

• This permission is granted for non-commercial use only
• "© Ascaron 2009, this Poser model is based on the original Seraphim character from the game “Sacred 2 – Fallen Angel”"

I'll have it submitted to freebies here presently :)

Thanks everybody for your support and enthusiasm!

Congratulations!  Great News!

Perhaps with this acceptance, you'll be able to do more reproductions in their franchise if you wish?

I'm sure they'd let me, but this was six weeks of work, time for something a bit more profit-oriented :)

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This is approved, and available in my freebies:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/index.php?user_id=472534

Enjoy!

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pjz99, this is an amazing outfit! I cannot believe all the options you put into it, and the body morph, what else can I say? That is one amazing butt. And I'm a girl! I am in awe of your talents. Thank so much for being so generous!

-Sarah

Kind of you to say :)  I hope you enjoy it!

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Quote - I'm sure they'd let me, but this was six weeks of work, time for something a bit more profit-oriented :)

Well, you've established a precedent with them.  That's a "good" thing!  Now, should you feel the need, you will probably be able to do similar projects inspired by their license.  So, long as this goes well and they're happy with whatever exposure/attention it gets, you'll have an easy time on the next project.

Grats again!

PS - I am not aware of the developer/publisher or the community.  How has the community received this?  Any "Official" public statements from any community reps commenting on this project?  I'd be interested to see how they've handled it if they've done anything "public" with it.

Go take a look at the thread I linked in the first post :)

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Thanks for this wonderful outfit.

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Quote - Go take a look at the thread I linked in the first post :)

I was wondering more along the lines of both "Official" kind of stuff like "Look what one of our fans did!" combined with general community response.  I don't know how indicative the forums are of the player community.  Sometimes MMORPG forums mirror it, sometimes not.  (ie: Anyone recognizing your work on your server during game-play and complimenting you, etc?)

By the way, you should put that in for a "Special Mention" in the FanArt contests.  I went to the game's homepage and looked up some past winners.  I'm sure you could squeeze out an awesome render or two and get some front/mid-page placement as a Winner or Special Mention.. :)

Again, nice work and grats!

I don't actually play the game any more or monitor the forums with any frequency, this project was a final burnout to get me off the game and back to work.  I'm not that interested in running in any popularity contests to get on whatever lists of this or that :)

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Quote - I don't actually play the game any more or monitor the forums with any frequency, this project was a final burnout to get me off the game and back to work.  I'm not that interested in running in any popularity contests to get on whatever lists of this or that :)

Gotcha.  Well, it looks as if your Last Hurrah Tribute was a big success!  A nice parting gift for your former community.

Thank you kindly, you work is fantastic as always...

I can't say how impressed I am that you've done all this work and allowed it to remain a free item. Thank you very much. You're incredibly generous. And talented.

Glad people are enjoying this :)

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I seem to have missed the party...; is this still available?
{It looks wonderful; and should fit in nicely with my "Action Girl" themes.}

(:

It's in her freebies, the link is in her sig line :-)

-Sarah

Quote - It's in her freebies, the link is in her sig line :-)

-Sarah

Yeah; but I keep downloading a 0Kb file.

(:

download don't work

www.oodlesdoodles.com

This is some piece of very good work, it must have been a hell of a job to get it all done.
Bravo!!!! Unfortunatly the link doesn't work anymore.
It's very nice of you to share it with the public. I'll hope the link comes back.
Thank you very much :D

Hugs Claudia

I second that, this looks really outstanding. Bandwidth issues, perhaps ?

Why doesn't anyone ever PM me about stuff like this?  Apparently the link in the Renderosity freestuff item has been broken since I first added it.  I don't know it even got approved.  :huh:

I've corrected the freestuff listing, and here is a direct link also:
http://cid-b233dcaeefa9709c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/Seraphim%20Poser%20Freebie/Seraphim%20V4%20Poser.zip

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I've PM'd all the people who posted about having trouble downloading the file, sorry about this problem.  The damn suit listing has nearly 1500 download count and nobody ever told me the link didn't work!

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