Is it just me or is SP3's rig borked?  The joint parameters for left and right shins are not symmetrical (see pic).  I've been trying to rig a pair of shoes this afternoon and having a lot of problems, I'm pretty sure this is why.  This pic is of the actual character figure's shin Bend parameters, but the problem appears to be present in the "BLANK" figure (rigging bone donor) as well.  Have other people noticed this? 

edit: I see the same thing in V4's shins. 

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M4's shins are correct, the falloff zones overlap perfectly (as I'd expect).

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More: the same problem in David (not really surprising) - no similar problem in Sydney or Simon (surprisingly, Jessi is OK here too).

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For some reason in the past few days I've been getting all hot and bothered whenever I read your forum posts. I'm going to have to try to ignore them... sorry.

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Pjz, who is SP3?

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DAS Stephanie Petite 3...

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I'm pretty convinced now the rig is just bugged and I'm not going to get anywhere trying to work around it - while I guess I could noodle around in the rig and try to fix it for myself, the result wouldn't distributable anyway.  Is there some fix that's in common circulation?

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 Thing is.. from your pic I can't see the problem. You're saying the kleft and right shin aren't symmetrical.. but this only shows one of them. How much are they off? A lot or a little?

It seems weird that if this is a major problem, nobody would have found/made a fix for it by now :) After all there are lots of shoes ect out there for the characters (Oh speaking of shoes: THANK YOU for that awesome shoe tutorial! I'll have to see if it's adaptable to Hexagon ^_ ^)

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

In the pic, the falloff zones for left and right shins are shown from the right non-orthographic (flat) camera, and they are not oriented the same way (hopefully more obvious in this pic)

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M4's shin JPs overlap perfectly (as I'd expect):

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There are lots of shoes out there, but not that many high heel shoes for SP3 specifically - I own exactly one, and it is clearly rigged wrong:

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Maybe Blackhearted knows more. He did one of the best SP3 characters - Irina 2.0.

Kevin

This is the kind of problem I'm having - the left two pairs shoes are V4 , 1 free and 2 conformed to the zeroed figure, the right two pairs are SP3, 3 conformed to the zeroed figure and 4 free.  The rig for both shoes has had Poser's "Figure -> Symmetry -> Right to Left -> Include joint setup" done, but the SP3 rigs are obviously not applying a symmetrical deformation - ergo, something is screwed up with the rig.  I got this to to work twice in a row with V4, but spent a day on it with SP3 and couldn't get anywhere.  It's acting like one of the conform target figure's leg bones is not oriented the same way as the other side's counterpart.

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Quote - Maybe Blackhearted knows more. He did one of the best SP3 characters - Irina 2.0.

Flat shoes only, I suspect he ran into a similar problem and came to the same conclusion.

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Quote - Flat shoes only, I suspect he ran into a similar problem and came to the same conclusion.

:P
i actually did try to make high(er)-heeled boots but was having issues conforming them, this may have been a factor.
at the time i didnt know why things werent working right, just that they werent - i just went back and made flat heeled boots.

Quote - Maybe Blackhearted knows more. He did one of the best SP3 characters - Irina 2.0.

thank you!

Okay, good enough for me ^^

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 Hm this is interesting. So there's really no heels for SP3? (or David for that matter.. he COULD walk in boots with a heel...)

Now.. I don't know how these are grouped, if you have a left and a right shoe or both shoes loads as one, I've seen conforming shoes done both ways... IF they load as one, perhaps you could split them and conform them as two totally separate things (mentally think of them as a shoe and a glove that just happens to be on the foot LOL)

Dunno if it would help but it's certainly weird, and very interesting. Also that no one has apparently pinpointed the problem before.

How about Aiko3? Isn't she a sort of SP3 with a morph? Because IF the problem is solved in Aiko you might be able to use her as a donor for the JP's and transfer them to SP3.

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

I wouldn't say there are "none", but I have seen few, and I only own the one pair. Since this is my own model, it's grouped however I want it to be and could be split up into separate files if that would help, but I don't think it really would.  The problem appears to be that SP3's bone - the character's bone - is skewed or scaled in some way that is not obvious.  I guess I could manually rig each shoe, but - well - that isn't worth my time for a model that at best would have been handed around as a freebie anyway. 

Not real excited to model shoes for A3, although I wouldn't mind for Ingenue V3/Glamourous Vickie (they're actually ready made for heeled shoes, a bit over the top).

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You are an experienced operator Pjz so please don't take my suggestions in the wrong way...just trying to help.

I've had the Poser Blank rigs do strange things before as well. Then I create my own BlankCR2 for that figure and it all works just fine. Most times I delete the IK's, but sometimes I need to keep them in otherwise things go wonky.

With all that said I fear that even if you did have a good Blank CR2 to go from it will still be screwed up as it is just trying to do what the figure rig is doing, and since the figure rig isn't sure what it wants to do at this point (not symetrical) then...???
Just for sh*ts and giggles trying conforming them with the IK's on, see what happens. That's pretty much what I do when up against the wall, I'll just try stuff to eliminate that option from my trouble shooting...more or less throw things against the wall to see if they stick.

Good luck to you!

Comitted to excellence through art.

I'm not very interested in trying things at random when the character's rig is obviously a bit screwed up (mismatched falloff zones e.g.).  If it wasn't important enough to DAZ for them to fix one of their own flagship characters at some point during the past several years, who am I to go against the trend?

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Quote - If it wasn't important enough to DAZ for them to fix one of their own flagship characters at some point during the past several years, who am I to go against the trend?

Agreed.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Just as an experiment, I attempted to correct Steph 3’s rig by using Symmetry/Right Leg To Left Leg and checking ‘yes’ on the ‘Do you want to copy the joint zone’s setup also?’ box. This simply will not work on Steph 3’s shins. The falloff zones remain asymmetrical. The fact that it should work but it doesn’t is another example of how messed up Poser Setup can be.

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I don't have any immediate answers for you, re: high-heeled shoes, but to answer your question - yes, SP3's rigging is horked (IIRC, V3's is somehwat off as well).  In fact, it's not just her legs/feet - if you check the 'center' of each joint, you'll find that her neck (? head? chest?) are not exactly at 0.0 on the X axis either.  It was a royal pain in the you-know-what when I was rigging the SP3 clothing (stockings and lingerie).

Daz is pretty sloppy about this with some figures, unfortunately.

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When I was making stormchaser boots for V4/GND, I had issues with this too. Finally I made a morph to squeeze the feet/legs into the boots.

Not only is it not symmetrical, but there's some sort of a rotational shift to the shins between the original mesh and what you get when you use the cr2 (developers blank or not).

It all boils down to a lot of fiddling around to fit boots.

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I am pretty sure that this has something to do with poser's gimbol lock bug, the reason I suspect this is becouse if you look at the rig in studio there is no symmetry issue the falloff spheres are identical. but look at the identical joint in poser and the left one has flipped

Oddly, I didn't have a problem rigging boots for V4.  I don't think the problem is the same for that figure, even though the rig is still not symmetrical (at least in Poser).  Currently working on a set of boots for M4, I'm optimistic about those since M4's rig appears to be symmetrical around that area.

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Sorry, if it came across that way, I wasn't suggesting that the problem is the same with SP3 and V4. I never rigged SP3, so I wouldn't know. 

I saw you mentioning in the first post that the problem you were seeing in SP3, you were seeing in V4's rig too.

PJZ's first post:
*Is it just me or is SP3's rig borked?  The joint parameters for left and right shins are not symmetrical (see pic).  I've been trying to rig a pair of shoes this afternoon and having a lot of problems, I'm pretty sure this is why.  This pic is of the actual character figure's shin Bend parameters, but the problem appears to be present in the "BLANK" figure (rigging bone donor) as well.  Have other people noticed this? 

edit: I see the same thing in V4's shins. *

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Yeah I hear you - I'm saying the problem appears to be much worse with SP3 than it is for V4.  If you want to, you might compare the boots I included with my last freebie and see how their rig looks next to yours.  I got this to work a couple of times in a row for V4, but for SP3 I never got a decent joint arrangement.  I can see that the V4 rig is also not symmetrical, but for whatever reason it didn't cause the same degree of trouble when rigging shoes for her.

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Quote - Yeah I hear you - I'm saying the problem appears to be much worse with SP3 than it is for V4.  If you want to, you might compare the boots I included with my last freebie and see how their rig looks next to yours.  I got this to work a couple of times in a row for V4, but for SP3 I never got a decent joint arrangement.  I can see that the V4 rig is also not symmetrical, but for whatever reason it didn't cause the same degree of trouble when rigging shoes for her.

Gotcha :)
I've been using the DAZ's figure setup tools more and more... for the JCM mostly at the moment. Can't wait to try it on a rig... but that's probably few weeks down the road. If you;re curious, I'll share my experience(s)... while they're fresh. I don't do enough of it to have it memorized later on... One rig every two months doesn't cut it.

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I'm interested to see how that works, sure - probably would be useful to everyone to have a little pictorial walkthrough of it in its own thread.

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 Hm but IF It's a Gimbal Lock problem, shouldn't all Poser figuressuffer from it? Which apparently they do not.

Will, I'm absolutely not saying it isn't so, actually it sounds like a very good explanation.. I just wonder why some Poser characters seem to suffer from this more than others.

And especially that the native Poser figures has less problems.COULD it be (and PLEASE..this is not a DS vs Poser debate by any means) that Daz figures are geared more towards DS while Native Poser figures are .. well meant for Poser? 

And how are they rigged differently?

It's interesting for me. Purely from a curious point of view :)

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

I think it more likely, the DAZ figures are not tested as thoroughly in Poser - they're definitely marketed for Poser "loud and proud".

I took a look at the joints of SP3 vs. EF Sydney (who does not show this kind of problem) and the only thing that really jumps out as different is that the DAZ figure's endPoint, origin and orientation values are carried out to much further decimal point precision (7 places) and some values are small enough that they probably should have been simply zero'd (e.g. -0.008something).

A couple of values in particular in the jointX block for the SP3 shin (where the falloff zones are described) are pretty ominous:
0.0619999 8.45394e-005 0 0
-1.50849e-011 0.167996 0.00151762 0
-9.73378e-014 0.00108402 -0.119998 0

I know that's scientific notation, I wonder if it's being interpreted correctly by Poser.

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Incidentally, while this problem does not manifest on Sydney's shin bones, it does show up at the buttock bones:

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I don't think it's a coincidence that, in Sydney's buttock bones, there are similar very tiny non-zero values for some of the jointX (falloff zone) parameters:

0.0718686 0.0541607 **-0.000383462 0
**0.0611069 0.312 8.3968e-005 1

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Surprisingly, Simon's rig appears to be OK - I would have thought problems similar to Sydney's would manifest, but nope.  While Simon's joint params do contain some very small values, none are smaller than e-07 unless they are simply zero.  However, this isn't really out of line with Sydney's joint param values (none of hers are smaller than e-06 unless they're zero).  Maybe it's that one specific joint param is of a data type that is too small to contain the value recorded in the CR2 (insufficient precision), and by luck, Simon is OK while Sydney is not.

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As an experiment that I shouldn't have wasted my time on, I tried rounding most of the values in Sydney's JPs for the screwed up area - this did not help or affect the problem, so it doesn't seem to be related to interpreting the precision of these numbers correctly.  I have no real idea why this problem pops up consistently for one figure and not for another.  I'm also seeing the retarded tumbling falloff zones behavior, so it can't even be fixed manually, it's simply impossible to get the falloff zones to line up even when manually typing the correct values in each field - simply selecting a field in Parameter Dials causes the falloff zone to move!

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More wasted time: I slapped SP3's rig around until it appeared completely symmetrical and turned that into a pose.  This doesn't do anything useful however, because a conformed figure still produces asymmetrical deformations.  Somehow, one of the leg bones is "upside down" or "backwards", or it is being interpreted as such by Poser anyhow (is there a difference?)

At any rate, I cheated and got my goddamn SP3 shoes rigged any damn way, I twisted the character's toe -9 degrees (that's how badly off this is).

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Bite me Poser!

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SP3’s shin falloff zones appear symmetrical when viewed in Daz Studio. Also, her foot bones are located separate from the toe bones and point out horizontally above the foot geometry. In Poser, the foot bones have snapped to the toes and the shin zones are out of whack.

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Well, I don't think DAZ is going to put a disclaimer on figures with this kind of problem e.g. "This figure doesn't work correctly in Poser, sorry".  I guess I could spend $300-400 on D|S to try to get it close to Poser in function - well, no.

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Yeah, Poser rules and all that. I just wish they'd fix the Setup bugs. One of these bugs is that a bone will always snap to its first child.

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Oh, I'm not saying Poser's the perfect app.  It's not even a very good app in terms of interpreting its own content.  I'm just not eager to sink several hundred bucks into D|S to get a maybe better Poserish app - I guess I'll stick to the figures that are rigged correctly (or at least, less incorrectly).

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Too irritating - this shoe rig actually works correctly in D|S (symmetrical deformation).  So much money I've wasted >.<

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That looks good. The one thing that worries me is that when I start rigging for Poser in Daz Studio, Poser might not be able to correctly interpret the exported cr2s.

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Yeah, that seems to be the root problem here, at least with SP3 (no idea why EF let Sydney out the door with this problem).

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I did some heels for SP3 a long time ago.... I called them "porn shoes".,, they are close to 5" heels

I'm at work so I can't post any pics of them. I didn't have a really bad time getting them to work. One thing I found is that you need to make sure all of the IK statements are deleted from the cr2 and that IK is actually off.

Ed

Yeah I checked that also (removed IK from the rig), didn't help with these.  They just do not behave the same in Poser as they do in DAZ|Studio.

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Here's a couple of pics of heels I've done for Steph3. I also did a pair of sandals and running shoes. I don't remember having problems making conformers out of any of them.

I'll load the heels and take a look with the joint editor and see if I did anything out of the ordinary.

Here's another set of boots with heels

Ok I went and looked at all of my heels, sandals and shoes I've done for Steph3 and all of them are symmetrical as far as the joint centers and falloff zones go. I did these a few years ago so maybe they did something to Steph3 that messed her up.

What version of Poser was this?
edit - is the toe actually rigged separate from the foot there? I wouldn't think so for the platform shoe, how about the boot at the bottom?

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Quote - What version of Poser was this?

Poser Pro

Do you mean Poser 7-ish Pro, or Poser 4-ish Pro Pack?

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Quote - Do you mean Poser 7-ish Pro, or Poser 4-ish Pro Pack?

These go back to the Poser ProPack and Poser 5 days:) I checked the joint centers on the heels and also Steph3 in Poser Pro..... newest version... The joint centers and falloff zones are symmetrical. I didn't load the blank cr2 so maybe something is borked in it.

Did you try using Steph3's cr2 and not the blank cr2? You will end up with a bloated cr2 but that can be fixed. I seem to remember there were problems with conforming some things without the IK statements in the cr2.... but my memory is terrible any more:)

I never use the blank cr2. I just made my own from the figure's cr2. I took out all the IK statements in the body parts and removed the eyes and fingers.

Ed

Quote - Did you try using Steph3's cr2 and not the blank cr2?

Yeah I've tried that also, it produces the same "wrong" deformation (removed IK on that try also).  Are those models of yours free or commercial?  If they're free can I take a look at your CR2?  Thanks.

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Quote - What version of Poser was this?
edit - is the toe actually rigged separate from the foot there? I wouldn't think so for the platform shoe, how about the boot at the bottom?

I never put toes in my shoes. They will still deform and work but you don't need to have actual geometry for them. On the other set of boot heels.. there is foot and shin geometry.

I guess it's the same principle as a skirt that is moved by the thigh bones, even though there is no 'thigh' part in the skirt.

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What I meant was, are there bones for the toes?  I don't mean polygon grouping.

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Quote - What I meant was, are there bones for the toes?  I don't mean polygon grouping.

No there isn't a bone for the toes.

Attached Link: V3 & SP Clothing Pack [DAZ product page]

The V3 & SP Clothing Pack has boots with heels, although I don't think I've ever used the SP3 boots. It would be interesting to see how a DAZ-rigged boot for Steph works. I'll rummage around in my library when I have a chance. 

EnglishBob I actually own that - the black platform boot is this one (rigged completely wrong).  I'll re-download it and see if it now comes with that other pair of shoes shown in the promo pic, it didn't have it when I originally bought it.

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Quote - No there isn't a bone for the toes.

While I don't doubt that works for what you were doing (platform shoe that doesn't bend at the toe) I've been talking about a rig with toe bones, so that the toe of the shoe can flex.  Thanks though.

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Ah I see, that DAZ promo pic has her in the same boot with a different morph applied, a bit confusing.  The new download is still rigged wrong though (wrong in both Poser and DAZ|Studio).

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Quote -  Hm this is interesting. So there's really no heels for SP3?

Not quite correct,just go and visit the store:
Mask-da, billy-t and dx30 is selling such items!

Quote - > Quote - No there isn't a bone for the toes.

While I don't doubt that works for what you were doing (platform shoe that doesn't bend at the toe) I've been talking about a rig with toe bones, so that the toe of the shoe can flex.  Thanks though.

You do not need a toe bone for shoes to bend at the toes. The bending the toes of the base figure (Steph3) will bend the toe area of the shoes. You do have to have the toe body part in the cr2. I hide it so it doesn't show in the body parts list.

A body part is a bone :huh:

Can you just show me the CR2 for your model?  I think we are using our terms in different ways.

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I'd like to see a screenshot of the shoe rig. A part without a bone becomes disconnected from the rigged geometry. A part with two bones is good to go.

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Quote - A body part is a bone :huh:

Can you just show me the CR2 for your model?  I think we are using our terms in different ways.

Ok.. I guess I said it wrong...... There is no toe group in the obj file.... 

So I guess this means you're not willing to show me the rig you came up with, which is OK.

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Quote - So I guess this means you're not willing to show me the rig you came up with, which is OK.

I'm at work and don't have access to the files at this very moment.

Well when it's convenient I'd still like to see it :) I appreciate it.

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