Ok so i was looking at the water tutorial here on render and i was trying to take it and add it to my own art. Note that im really new at this but im falling in love with it. So i want to achieve the most realistic water possible.

So you guys understand exactly what i did i followed the tutorial and added some reflection and refraction to the hi res cloth. Then i found a ripple image and added it to "2d image map" under bump and ended up with this.

img254.imageshack.us/img254/429/test3.png

I feel like im getting close im just not quite there yet. Any tips (especially on trying to achieve the perfect color.)

Sorry, the link to your image should have the "N" flag set.

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Sorry sorry wasn't thinking ok so i have changed it around and messed with it some more and ended up with this now.

img26.imageshack.us/img26/7238/test7.png

Any ideas?

I don't know how you are doing with your tests, but based on your last image (a huge improvement over your first!) I would suggest:-

a) give your water something more to refract. Perhaps by tiling or otherwise texturing the floor/ground under the water (depending on what sort of surface it is supposed to be).

b) give your water something more to reflect. A simple specular light up behind the figure would highlight the ripples better. It looks like you may have a faint bluish specular light there already, but it is hardly noticeable and does not have much spread.

Or you could set up a self-lit image backdrop for the water to reflect, or use bagginsbill's free EnvSphere dome.

By the way, your last test image is over-lit from the front. The specular highlights on her clothing are going much "brighter than white" and so you are losing a lot of detail. If you increased the light intensity in order to lighten the dark shadows, they are not there because there is too little light in your scene, they are there because you are not gamma-correcting your image. There is another thread about that, by bagginsbill.... for another time perhaps!

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

Attached Link: http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff/environment-sphere

As IsaoShi was suggesting, water, glass, gemstones, shiny metals all need surrounding surfaces to reflect off of. You could go get Bagginsbill's Evosphere and place it in your scene with an image of your choice. This will give your water plane a 360 degree environment to reflect off of.

A screenshot of your shader tree would be good so we can comment further and get your going along better toward the effect you are wanting.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Oh, and it will help your results by makiing sure that 'cast shadows' is turned off for your water plane.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Get the evo sphere. Put an image on it.

On the water, set Diffuse_Value = 0, Specular_Value = 0.

Add a Fresnel node - connect it to Alternate_Diffuse.

Add whatever you like for bump.

Render.

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I just put this together as a demo. The E-sphere has a 360 degree photo in it of a boatyard. There is real water in the photo.

I put a water shader on the ground, and added Simon.

Can you tell where the 3D water ends and the photo water begins?

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Changed the ground shader so you can tell what is photo and what is 3D.

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Moved the camera.

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The water shader. This is for crystal clear water. Once you master this, I'll teach you other kinds of water. Let me know when you're ready.

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Quote - Get the evo sphere

I was a bit puzzled about just when the EnvSphere morphed (or evolved) into an EvoSphere, so I went to see it chez bill. I'm happy to report that it's still an EnvSphere.
:O)

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

I had made a series of fresnel water materials a while ago. Here's one of them. Please show us some more when you have time, Bagginsbill!

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

As an additional note, be sure to set your render settings accordingly- use raytracing, set raytracing bounces to at least 3; depending on your shader tree arrangement 4 raytrace bounces is better. And of course, check the use displacement maps if you are using displacement for ripples.- Starkdog

really? why is 3 bounces better? why is 4 bounces better?

A really quick example, I am sure someone else can explain the physics behind it better. In this image the search light has double sided glass in the front, and a mirror in the back. To render this correctly, it needs 5 ray trace bounces, one for each side of the glass when the light enters, one for the mirror bounce, and one for each side of the glass for the light coming out of the search light.

This is an extreme example where you will need five bounces. In water, you need one bounce for the light entering the water, one for the bottom of the water area, be it sand or beach or pool bottom, and one for the light coming out of the water. So for good water you will need a minimum of three bounces, otherwise your refraction and transparency will not be physically accurate.

OK, now someone else will explain the physics of the render engine behind this.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

(Big teasing and joking time now - nobody take offense)

OK boys, real friendly like, drop your weapons. You've been making erroneous physics claims about Poser and didn't do the Poser tests yourself, and so you're under material arrest.

My render of water above is one bounce.

Now, instead of me explaining how ray-tracing works again, you draw me a diagram that shows what you think a "bounce" is in ray-tracing. In doing so you'll probably work out why that is only one bounce.

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what is different in using the ''fresnel'' node in the material room and refract?

i thougth that for glass we need reflect node and refract.

the fresnel is only for the fresnel effect?

i think bounces are for self-reflection.
for example when you have two mirror balls they are reflecting themselfs.

The Fresnel node combines Reflect and Refract with the ratio automatically calculated based on index of refraction and angle to viewer. It only performs the correct calculation for a material that is 100% clear at 0 degrees and 100% reflective at 90 degrees - i.e. a perfect material. In real life things like clear glass, clear undisturbed water, and diamond are examples of things that the Fresnel node correctly models. Things it does not model correctly are colored glass, water with particles in it, or colored gems such as ruby or emerald.

The Fresnel effect still comes into play with all materials, but if there is any diffuse reflection, or if the refracted light is colored in any way, then we must build a different calculation using the nodes for Reflect, Refract, Diffuse, and a lot of math nodes. That is why I say you can use the Fresnel node for certain things, because it is correct and convenient. In other cases, when it is incorrect, you must give up the convenience and build a different (but similar) set of rules using more nodes.

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Quote - i think bounces are for self-reflection.
for example when you have two mirror balls they are reflecting themselfs.

That is one scenario where multiple bounces are needed. But self-reflection is not the only case. For example, the refraction seen through a drinking glass, which has to pass through inner and outer surfaces two times each to see what is behind the glass requires 4 bounces.

The confusion arises from counting the number of effects implemented in a shader as if that is the number of bounces. It is not. That is the number of extra rays that have to be evaluated.

In a single-layer material such as a water plane, the shader will generate a new ray to reflect the sky, and also a new ray to refract and show us what is under the water. That is two rays, but it is only one bounce. The number of bounces needed is the longest single path from the surface we're rendering (the primary surface) to other surfaces that have to be evaluated on behalf of the primary surface.

For example, when we need a reflection of the sky from the water, the water shader must call upon the sky shader to figure that out. So that is one bounce. The water shader must also call upon the ground shader for the refraction. That is also one bounce.

Now suppose we put an airplane flying low across the water. There is glass on the plane. We expect to see the reflection of the sky in the reflection of the glass on the water surface. So the total path length (bounces needed) is based on how many additional shader evaluations are needed IN ONE CHAIN. The water shader calls the airplane glass shader, which calls the sky shader. That's two bounces in one chain. The water shader also calls the sky shader directly in some places.

If the glass on the plane is lined up so that it reflects the metal on the wing, and the metal is reflective too, then the water consults the glass shader, the glass consults the metal shader, the metal consults the sky shader. That's 3 bounces.

If you have water that is displaced instead of just using bump, then you may want to include two bounces for when the ray from one wave strikes another wave, instead of reaching the sky. The wave #1 water shader consults the wave #2 water shader which consults the sky shader. That's two bounces. However, Poser has some flaws regarding ray-tracing and displacement. In most situations, the displacement stuff is ignored by the ray-trace evaluator (not always, but often). The result is that if the water surface is actually flat, it is unusual for the reflected ray to actually hit another spot of water. Usually it doesn't see displaced waves. It might, however, see another spot of un-displaced water plane and generate a reflection of the un-displaced water plane. This usually doesn't look right, but sometimes its ok. We're getting into very specific and unusual situations now, that are not based on physics but rather on the specific ways that Poser mis-behaves.

In my case, I find that the reflections from displaced surfaces are very difficult to get right and require a lot of fudging of ray-bias, even if we only ask for one bounce to get the sky reflected in the water. That's why I usually do not bother with displacement on water, and only use bump. The reflections from a bump-driven surface work much better in Poser than a displacement-driven surface.

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i made a thread where we can use less bounces when we make a cheat.

I know, I saw that thread. There are some mistakes in your assumptions. I haven't had time to go to that thread and respond. I have to do a lot of demo renders and shaders to show what is going on there.

Here's a render I just did, with an airplane over water. The reality is that the water is so bumpy no details can be seen on the reflection of the plane. So it really doesn't matter whether we get a secondary reflection off the cockpit canopy or not. This is rendered with only one bounce.

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If I change the airplane to use a chrome shader, now I need two bounces. There are places where the water reflects the plane which reflects the sky (two bounces in one chain) and there are places where part of the plane reflects another part of the plane which reflects the sky (two bounces). In these places, since I rendered with one bounce, the contribution from the second bounce is missing. That means the water reflects a black airplane, and the airplane reflects a black airplane.

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Here is the same with 2 bounces. There are important differences, although I bet most Poser users would not notice. These people would have said "beautiful render" on the previous, and I would laugh.

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Here is a render with 3 bounces. The differences show up when:

The water reflects the plane which reflects the water which reflects the sky.

The plane reflects the water which reflects the plane which reflects the sky.

The plane reflects the plane which reflects the plane which reflects the sky.

Even I would not notice these unless I was doing a direct comparison.

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the cheat doesnt work always .i will admit that
but maybe with some time maybe we could even do it .

Here is the water shader I was using in these latest renders. It is for deep water, such as ocean or lake, where we cannot see anything under the water.

This is not a gamma-correcting shader, and so I would only use it in Poser Pro with PPro render GC enabled, as I've done here.

The scale of the Fractal_Sum is going to depend on the scale of your prop. I used the ground plane here at a scale of 4000%. If you use some other prop, or use the same prop at a different scale, you will need to adjust the Fractal_Sum scale parameters accordingly.

The color I chose for Diffuse_Color, and also the value of Diffuse_Value, was chosen to match a typical ocean color. It matches the photo I'm using here. If you look near the horizon, you see real water in the photograph. My ground plane 3D water shader is matching it almost perfectly.

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thanks for the shader. right click and save.

For comparison, I rendered both with GC (left) and without (right) and show you both at once. I suppose you could get away with the non-GC render if you're ok with being sloppy, but it is not accurate.

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For lake water, change the Diffuse_Color to brown. The deeper the lake, the darker the brown should be.

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For shallower water over sand, use a light tan color.

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Some lakes have a lot of algae. For these, use a color like this with a lot more green in it.

This render is looking straight down.

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Here is the same algae lake water looking towards the horizon. Notice the beautiful and realistic transition from green to blue.

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GC is important.

to bad that poserPRO GC has an effect on the nodes. like fractal sum,clouds,....

GC does not affect Fractal_Sum - it only affects color parameters and Fractal_Sum has none.

It also does not affect clouds either if the colors are white and black.

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If you're setting up a cloudy day (notice I changed my environment sphere here) the water's Diffuse_Color should be nearly black. I used RGB 35, 31, 7 here. Remember that gets gamma corrected. If you're not using GC, you have to use very different numbers at these low levels.

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For a really murky foggy day, use Poser's Depth Cueing feature like this.

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Note - as always, more Poser Display Units are INCHES!!!

The numbers I use for Bump or Depth Cue distances are in inches. Use my units or convert as you see fit.

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I placed some props at various distances to show how cool the depth cue is.

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Quote - GC does not affect Fractal_Sum - it only affects color parameters and Fractal_Sum has none.

It also does not affect clouds either if the colors are white and black.

it gamma correct everything. i know this. you already explained it .

It gamma corrects colors that get rendered, and it anti-gamma corrects color parameters entered into nodes, and images used in an Image_Map node. It does not gamma correct data coming from Fractal_Sum plugged into Bump or Displacement. It would gamma correct the output of that node if you look at it, i.e. you have it draw on your object. If the way you're using it is to control displacement or transparency, the data is not gamma corrected.

In particular, what I'm saying is that if a Fractal_Sum generates .5 at a given point and you run that into Bump or Transparency or whatever, the value used is .5, not .5 ^ (1/2.2).

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Quote - it gamma correct everything. i know this. you already explained it .

Some of us may not know it. I didn't.

Quote - It gamma corrects colors that get rendered, and it anti-gamma corrects color parameters entered into nodes, and images used in an Image_Map node. It does not gamma correct data coming from Fractal_Sum plugged into Bump or Displacement. It would gamma correct the output of that node if you look at it, i.e. you have it draw on your object. If the way you're using it is to control displacement or transparency, the data is not gamma corrected.

In particular, what I'm saying is that if a Fractal_Sum generates .5 at a given point and you run that into Bump or Transparency or whatever, the value used is .5, not .5 ^ (1/2.2).

thats a long a pretty long answer.
didnt you in one thread say that we can not make displacement with the buil in GC because it gamma corrects it?

I said it gamma corrects an image unless you tell it not to. If you use the image for a displacement map, then the data is modified, but it is the image that is modified, not the output of the node.

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aargh!
so that's why my displacement map was inverting.. it was being GC'd then I subtracted .5 from it... I set the GC on that texture to 1 (off I assume) and it renders properly...

bingo. that was it. set the gamma on the Dmap to 1 and it's rendering the rightway round... damn I was adjusting maps and swearing thinking I'd painted it wrong...

Thank you for taking the time to show us these demos, BB.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Excellent water shader there, BB!

I've been playing around with it and found a way of putting (in this example) floating weeds on the surface....

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

And here's the shader tweak.

Edit:
Play with the settings to fine-tune the size, frequency and 'definition' of the floaters. Don't put the number of octaves above 8!

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Note that the color settings for Alternate Spec / Alternate Diff are important. Here's what I used.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

cspear,

You do realize you made that a glowing shader, right? Turn off all your lights and render it.

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cspear, that rendered image looks like it could have come out of the video game Fallout 3! That looks great, IMO.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Quote -

You do realize you made that a glowing shader, right? Turn off all your lights and render it.

BB,

I do realise that. It has to be adjusted for different light conditions - any suggestions of where else to stick it (!) are welcome.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Quote - For lake water, change the Diffuse_Color to brown. The deeper the lake, the darker the brown should be.

time out. time out BB. this looks way to real to be from poser. he he :)

Quote - If I change the airplane to use a chrome shader, now I need two bounces. There are places where the water reflects the plane which reflects the sky (two bounces in one chain) and there are places where part of the plane reflects another part of the plane which reflects the sky (two bounces). In these places, since I rendered with one bounce, the contribution from the second bounce is missing. That means the water reflects a black airplane, and the airplane reflects a black airplane.

2 bounces

1 bounce

1 bounce ( if you know that people wont notice the difference)

Quote - Here is the water shader I was using in these latest renders. It is for deep water, such as ocean or lake, where we cannot see anything under the water.

This is not a gamma-correcting shader, and so I would only use it in Poser Pro with PPro render GC enabled, as I've done here.

The scale of the Fractal_Sum is going to depend on the scale of your prop. I used the ground plane here at a scale of 4000%. If you use some other prop, or use the same prop at a different scale, you will need to adjust the Fractal_Sum scale parameters accordingly.

The color I chose for Diffuse_Color, and also the value of Diffuse_Value, was chosen to match a typical ocean color. It matches the photo I'm using here. If you look near the horizon, you see real water in the photograph. My ground plane 3D water shader is matching it almost perfectly.

this is you new way for calculating the fresnel effect right?
is there any site where we can dial in the settings for different materials that ahve fresnel effect?

Yes it is a new way to approximate, with good accuracy, the Fresnel equation using only 4 nodes. The full equation takes many more than that.

However, there is no intuitive way to know what values to use in this node setup. I used an interactive graphic tool to find a curve that matches the Fresnel curve for a particular IOR. (This one is not the IOR of water, but I didn't bother with detail - it's good enough.)

I meant to publish this fast Fresnel approximation in a for-pay shader, but I forgot and showed it to you guys for free. Oh well. :)

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dont worry. if you will realese some shaders for money then belive me we will pay for it.

can i ask what settings do we need to change? the edge-blend white and black colors?

and could you a little explain why you used the blender node? and 0,4. and what does the POW node do?

thank you very much.

watching
learning

Bagginsbill

can you a little explain why you used the blender node? and 0,4. and what does the POW node do?

thank you very much.

Also interested... I thought I saw an explanation of how you arrived at this setup somewhere, but I can't find it now.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

This one deserves a bump

I never answered the questions about how I arrived at the approximation because I already answered. I have a program that graphs functions in real time. It has the ability to graph multiple functions, and use parameters that I can click on to adjust the functions.

I wrote the real Fresnel equation, and I wrote the approximation, and I adjusted the parameters until they pretty well matched. I tried many approximations before arriving at the formula that results in those 4 nodes. It is the smallest set of nodes I can find that is within 1% accuracy across the whole range of values.

Every now and then I open this program up and I work on the approximation some more. I have better parameters than before, now.

I used the Blender node because it implements an expression involving 3 arguments that happen to be a good part of the formula I came up with. Blend(a, b, f) implements:

(1-f)a + fb

The way I'm using it, b is 1, so this reduces to:

(1-f)*a + f

The value I used was .04, but that's not actually the correct number for water. It is the number for glass. I was lazy and just copied my glass shader to do the water.

You want the best numbers I currently have for water?

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Here is the tool.

The graph shows three functions. Red is the real Fresnel equation. Blue is the approximation. Purple shows 10 times the difference between the approximation and the real thing.

On the right are the formulas. Formula y1 (in blue) is the approximation. It uses three parameters, b, s, and p, and another formula, y4.

y4 is actually just the cosine of the angle of incidence and is implemented by the Edge_Blend node in the shader.

Functions y4, y5, y6, y7, and finally y8 implement the true Fresnel equation for unpolarized light. The last one, y8, is what is graphed in red.

Function y9, the purple one, is calculating 10 times the difference between the approximation (y1) and the real equation (y8).

The parameters are at the bottom.

a = the desired index of refraction
b = the blend value for the approximation
s = the subtract coefficient value for the approximation
p = the power value for the approximation

The blending value, b, can also be thought of as the "base" value - i.e. it controls the lowest value produced when the angle of incidence is lined up with the surface normal, i.e. when the difference between these angles is 0.

For IOR = 1.54 (glass) I came up with the values shown. For the water, I just decreased b a little bit, but that was simple laziness on my part.

I have better values for glass, now, as well.

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Here is an excellent approximation for water, with IOR 1.33.

b = .0186
p = 60
s = .104

Put .0186 into the Blender blending value.

Put 60 into the Pow node Value_2.

Put .104 into the Subtract node Value_2.

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Here is an excellent approximation for glass, with IOR 1.54.

b = .0424
p = 90
s = .0634

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

VEry very interesting to achieve realism in render, but just a little question, how i determine b p and s if i dont have your software ?

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Quote - VEry very interesting to achieve realism in render, but just a little question, how i determine b p and s if i dont have your software ?

Well, I don't mind coming up with parameters for other IOR values, so just ask.

Or, you could have the software. It's free. It's called GRAPES and is here:

http://www.criced.tsukuba.ac.jp/grapes/

Once you have it, I will give you the GRAPES document that has my setup in it for finding fake Fresnel settings and you can play with it yourself.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Oh yesssssssssss !

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I come back cause i'm really interested to get lot of realism on my renders and cause i have a little pb, it seem the formula ( i know it's an approximation) dont like the ior under 1 like gold who is 0,47, impossible to match the real fresnel, but for ice or beer it work very well !

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That .47 value for Gold came from the BlenderArtists forum and it's wrong.

All metals have IOR above 50!!

In Grapes, enter a=50 and see what the red (real Fresnel) curve does. It becomes highly reflective at all angles. This is why metals are metals - they have a very high IOR. Some are above 100.

[Edit] The subject of IOR for dialectrics is simple, but for metals, it gets complex, literally. Meaning, the IOR is a complex number involving a real part and an imaginary part.

In practice, the reflectivity of metals based on viewing angle is nearly constant, and does not really need a Fresnel effect to be convincing.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Oh my - I just found this - "Schlick's Approximation of Fresnel" on Wikipedia. I swear, I never saw this before I made my approximation. It is the same form! Isn't that amazing? This Schlick fellow and I solved the same problem the same way. This is one of the arguments why math formulas cannot be patented. We do not "invent" them, they exist already - we simply reveal them.

However, mine has different coefficients and is much more accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlick%27s_approximation

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Thx, i send my source ...

http://www.frenchcinema4d.fr/forum/index.php?topic=22562.0

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Anth,

Yes, the same list is published in CGSociety and other places. Read the comments on many of these. Each time I find this list, underneath are people questioning the metals. They complain that typing in these quoted values for gold and silver into programs such as Maxwell, Maya, 3DSMax, all produce nonsense. And so it is because these numbers are nonsense, and represent only part of the IOR of metals.

It takes two numbers to specify the IOR of a metal, the real and the imaginary part. And these two numbers are used in a more generalized Fresnel equation that solves for reflectivity based on the frequency of the light, not just the angle of incidence.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Old thread, but good stuff. Was using it for a water shader, as BB had setup, but mine is not coming out as "smooth" up closer? Is it a new feature in P9 versus P8 or something, or am I just doing something wrong?

Render Settings are same as in page 1, BB post "Posted Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:15 am, Edited Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:16 am" (checked and double checked)

I was using a scaled up ground plane, which starts out pretty small. Since the waves scale with the prop, I had to shrink the waves.

If you're putting that same scale wave on a prop that is already large, they will come out very dense.

You need to adjust the scale on the node(s) making the waves.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Yea, I was trying scaling, but I was scaling the bump along with the Fractal Sum node, and it was getting me just rougher seas, when I was looking for a lake.

Scaled the fractal sum up, and left the bump at 1, and now I got it, or at least good enough for me :) Good ol' trial and error!

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Trying to achieve good water