E-On annouced version 7.5 today in their newsletter.  $295.00 upgrade from 7 Infinite.  Same cost to upgrade to 8 from either version when it becomes available.  i think I'll pass.

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/

John
. 

Looks like Terragen2 is the way to go!  E-on has priced themselves out of our market. 

im sorry but e-on really are shooting themselves in the foot

295 dollars to upgrade to something that probably doesnt work either is a waste of money, im out on this one.

RIDICULOUS.

I love vue, but im not being held to ransom to get my copy of vue to work.

Rich

http://blog.richard-potter.co.uk

For that feature list, assuming those are the best features planned, then $295 is way too much in this financial climate. I'm out.

Steve

Quote - E-on has priced themselves out of our market. 

I have to agree. Vue 7 is only about 6 months old  and I purchased Infinite at the beginning of this month. I cannot say I am very happy with this. :(

Ditto all the above......very disappointing :(

Well, there's also this to read before firing all weapons:
Quoting from same newsletter:
"At the time of releasing Vue 7.5, we will also release a free Vue 7.4 service pack for all Vue 7 products (including Esprit, Pro Studio and Complete). This service pack will add new functionality to Vue 7 and will be available at no cost for all Vue 7 users."

Quote - Well, there's also this to read before firing all weapons:
Quoting from same newsletter:
"At the time of releasing Vue 7.5, we will also release a free Vue 7.4 service pack for all Vue 7 products (including Esprit, Pro Studio and Complete). This service pack will add new functionality to Vue 7 and will be available at no cost for all Vue 7 users."

Yes...   but wasn't one (or more) of the features of xStream to be able to paint eco systems within ALL of the applications? Now...   in 7.5 you will be able to do it in XSI. And forget about Lightwave. 7.4 won't have these functionalities since they WILL be in 7.5.

Been a Vue user and upgraded everything since 3. Version 6 is the first I stopped at. Looking at what they've done, I'm glad I didn't upgrade. I WILL spend the money on T2 though.

Terragen2!

*The cost of the upgrade to the next version of Vue will be the same
whether you upgrade from Vue 7 or Vue 7.5

THAT bit proves E-On have lost their %$king minds!! The SAME price to upgrade, even if I spend $295 to get version 7.5?! RETARDS!!! A$$HOLES!!!!
I got free upgrades from lightwave 8.0 to 9.5 by comparison.

:cursing:
Sorry for the language, but E-On have been smoking the corporate bong for sure! Jeesh.

What a wasted opportunity, as the add ons are looking good, it's what they need ot UNDO the problems they've caused:- grotesquely over complex product list (have you seen their price list? that's stupid, a customer wants a SIMPLE choice,compare to Carrara's price/product list)

• Put prices way too high by at least 20%, compare ot Carra and Lightwave and see the point.
• Still too many bugs, probably becuase of their overly complex ystem, when all they should have are 3 products: Studio ($100), Infinite ($400) and Xstream ($750).

Bah, "French Revolution" time for every corporate idiot across the globe, lol!! ;)

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

Looks to me like most of the new features are really aimed at higher-end studios/users.  The terrain material painting and spherical terrains/planets looks kinda interesting though.  I wonder how much of the new stuff will find its way into 7.4.?

I have to say E-On have really messed this up, the "feature" list isn't that fab, and I dont believe they will add anything that can justify that price.

Bad call E-On

Jon

DA Portfolio - http://jonj1611.daportfolio.com/

The comparative chart at e-on says terrain painting will be in 7.4, and looks like many other features will be too. Free. For all. This is no french revolution, this is communism! lol!  Somebody shoot'em!

Yes, looks like they made some neath new functions, but i also gonna skip this one due to the cost and due to currently out of a job.

Think i'm gonna stick with Vue7.21Inf on my computer anyway because i don 't think it can handle any upgrade no more LOL !

But i will follow the developments for shure !

 

Society failed to tolerate me...

... and i have failed to tolerate society

 

Quote - *The cost of the upgrade to the next version of Vue will be the same
whether you upgrade from Vue 7 or Vue 7.5

THAT bit proves E-On have lost their %$king minds!! The SAME price to upgrade, even if I spend $295 to get version 7.5?! RETARDS!!! A$$HOLES!!!!
I got free upgrades from lightwave 8.0 to 9.5 by comparison.

:cursing:
Sorry for the language, but E-On have been smoking the corporate bong for sure! Jeesh

I think the point that e-on was trying to make is that is may be more cost effective to buy maintenance at $395 which will get you the 7.5 release and Version 8 when it becomes available.  Given that the Vue 6 to Vue 7 updgrade is priced at  $395 and will probably stay the same or go higher for Vue 7 to Vue 8, the $395 maintenance plan may be the way to go to lock in a price for Vue 8 and get access to the 7.5 release.  At a minimum, I do like the fact that e-on is not going penalize me economically if I decide not to get the 7.5 release.  I do wish there were some more details on what's in 7.4 and what they are thinking about with Vue 8.  It would make the buy/no-buy decision easier.

Bruno,
It's not their craniums I'd be lopping off with a guillotine, no, I'm too nice for that...but I'm not above chopping off their favourite manly parts!!! :tt2:

It's that one bit I highlight that's totally out of order, and undoes the good they have done, jeesh.
To you guys, maybe £200 isn't much, to me it's nearly half of what I get each month,.
You do not need ot be ILM to use Infinite or benefit from it, that's a croc.
E-On did themselves out of a sale when they drove Xstream's price through the roof.
Now if they price most folk away from Infinite, as they have been doing...wonderful, all that's gonna do is weaken Vue's user numbers and increase piracy :/

As I've said, Vue needs pruned down to 3 versions: Studio, Infinite; Xstream, and prices reduced, the simplicity will help buyers, reduce bug fixing woes (cause folk ARE having problems with the modular upgrades); and encourage buyers.

I can buy Carrara 7 Pro for about $380 'cause I have platinum club, for a comparison.

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

As far as pushing the maintenance plan, that only works if Vue 8 were released within a year; as the maintenance plan is a yearly cost as I understand it.  It seems to be much like trueSpace's Proteam approach.

I'll be interested in what 7.4 includes, and I will enjoy what i have.  But I can't justify the upgrade.

John

Wow, glad I'm not around with you being in such a "chopping it all off" mood, lol!
I think the upgarde from 7 to 8 will be the smae , more or less, than from 6 to 7, it won't add the cost from 7 to 7.5+ 7.5 to 8, at least this is how I read it.
Most of the 7.5 features will also make it to the free 7.4, according to the Vue7 feature list available at e-on's, so I don't think many non pro users will upgrade if they don't have a maintenance plan.

"I can buy Carrara 7 Pro for about $380 'cause I have platinum club, for a comparison."
Sure, but what for? -)

Do you remember when I forecast that prices would go up and upgrades would become less significant? I was branded a troll to be insulted and ostracized.

In case you consider creating planets a great step, please check this page on Sourceforge, it will teach you something.

Well, at least you can skip this intermediate version and go straight to 8 (actually I was expecting 7.5 to be a prerequisite for 8).

Just today I checked Terragen2. The version without animation module is currently 199$ though I read in one of the Planetside forum that they will increase soon the price by 100$ (i.e. 299$); there is a free, size/render quality limited version without time limits to try it.

Bye...

P.S.: I am not happy. I would have prefered Vue to continue be the best (and quite affordable) landscaping program and not turn into this thing.

P.P.S.: E-On added support for VRay. Isn't it amusing for a rendering program with ecosystems to download rendering to a program which handles instacing? it is almost a tongue twister.

GIMP 2.7.4, Inkscape 0.48, Genetica 3.6 Basic, FilterForge 3 Professional, Blender 2.61, SketchUp 8, PoserPro 2012, Vue 10 Infinite, World Machine 2.3, GeoControl 2

I dont mean to drone on but really, shouldnt they consider fixing the problems with the current program rather than lumping out extra things we have to pay for?

I personally would like to see the exporter module up and running before ill be paying for anything further from e-on, or the module taken down from sale till it actually works properly. (yes I have reported this (twice) with no success, and shall continue to do so till it is fixed or I have my money back for the module)

I dont want to sound overly negative, but they are just going to drive away customers and end up running themselves into the ground and destroying what should be one of the best 3d packages around.

Rich

http://blog.richard-potter.co.uk

Well that does it for me. I started with version 4.   I can't afford Vue anymore.  I very reluctantly paid to go from 6inf to 7inf.  This is the last straw.  I'm unregistering all my Vue software and selling it all.  Time to bail out.  Bye E-on.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

I know you mean well :)
But what if after paying $395, Vue 8 doesn't come out until more than a year after I buy the maintenance plan, which is then outside the "free upgrade" time?
And do you think I can just pull that kind of money out my ass? :/

E-On's attitude is seemingly saying it doesn't want "scumbag normal Joe Blow users, it only wants business customers who will ALSO pay for maintenance, yes you have to pay TWICE just to keep going with this app!",
that's how folk will see this, think about it a minute...it's going down like a lead balloon, regardless of facts or how E-On may actually mean it.
This is incredibly badly thought out, and alas, typical of "corporate" stupidity.

it also means it will have a LOT more folk demanding direct maintenance help because they have paid for it just to avoid being screwed over...which will tie up more E-On staff...

E-On needs ot pull it's head out of it's cloudy ass and re-think it's attitude and how it presents itself. All of this and the complexity of versions and bugs = E-On doesn't get a good name.
They need to get back in touch with their grass roots customers, pare their products versions and prices down, ask customers questions a LOT more, put feedback questionnaires up or whatever.

Simple fact that corporates simply cannot get their heads around:
digital products, you can potentially sell them to every person Earth with broadband...
never occurs to corporates, always how much they can get per customer is what they think about.

Ah well.

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
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I agree that 7.5 seems overpriced for the hobbyist but there's a very good alternative - get 7.4 for free, which has most of the features of 7.5, and upgrade to 8 when it comes out. This is probably the best route for hobbyists, and it's not bad at all, I would say, because upgrade to 8 will still cost the same.

The professional studios can afford 7.5 and they will get it now, the hobbyists will get 7.4 (almost the same) for free. How can that be bad? Later on, both of us, hobbyists and pros, will upgrade to 8 at the same cost. This whole strategy seems good news to hobbyists, the way I see it, while still allowing e-on to make some extra money from the pros with this interim version. It's not a bad idea, actually... It's a win-win-win situation.

I don't use the latest version of Photoshop. When I compared it's features to my CS3, I couldn't justify the cost. I do fine with CS3..no problems.

Hey, unless you NEED the new features, why upgrade? As Bruno says, 7.4 will also be released when 7.5 is released. Remember 7.5 isn't released YET. It's just announced that there's a pre-release version for all those who currently have the maintenance program-- primarily professionals. And do you guys really want to test the pre-release version of 7.5? .

The Vue 7.5 series is the professional line of Vue product, and their intended market is not hobbyists. Sure, hobbyists use it, but I imagine at some point the hobbyists will either quit upgrading or start using the Vue Artist line as it's just too expensive for them. Furthermore, do we really need the ability to render clouds in their own alpha layer for later compositing with HD captured video on an expensive frame store? Not me, but the pros have been asking for that option for awhile.

There are many professional level products in many different software areas. Pro-Engineer is another one which comes to mind. Hobbyists just cannot afford it. City Engine is another very high priced 3D software which most hobbyists might want, but cannot afford.

Let's see, what do other professional annual maintenance programs cost?

3DS Max: $495
AutoCad: $450
Maya Unlimited: $1295
Revit: $695

So, unless you just can't stand not having the latest version, just keep using 7.0-- there doesn't seem to be THAT much difference. Also, when 8.0 finally does come around, you won't have to complain about it's upgrade path, as you'll have the same upgrade costs as the 7.5 users.

It seems everytime Vue releases a new version there's plenty of hoopla and threats and name-calling, mostly by the usual suspects. No big surprise as this forum is comprised mostly by hobbyists, like myself, who don't typically have a pro 3d budget for purchasing their 3d software.

 

Quote - Let's see, what do other professional annual maintenance programs cost?

3DS Max: $495
AutoCad: $450
Maya Unlimited: $1295
Revit: $695

So, unless you just can't stand not having the latest version, just keep using 7.0-- there doesn't seem to be THAT much difference. Also, when 8.0 finally does come around, you won't have to complain about it's upgrade path, as you'll have the same upgrade costs as the 7.5 users.

But how many of these programs go up SO HIGH in price so quickly? What was the price increase between Vue5I, Vue6I and Vue7I - not even going towards the xStream pricing that still does NOT do what it was advertised?

ALL programs were supposed to be able to do eco-system painting within their respective programs. And now for 7.5 they tout one of the "new" features as eco-system painting within the appllication. What's up with that?

Quote -

ALL programs were supposed to be able to do eco-system painting within their respective programs. And now for 7.5 they tout one of the "new" features as eco-system painting within the appllication. What's up with that?

Not completely true, e-on always said painting in those apps was the ultimate goal, but wasn't possible at the time Vue7 was out, be it because of software architecture, or lack of communication between dev teams. So this time they were able to add XSI, but not Maya nor LW.

Just got my newsletter and I fall in the camp of the "seriously pissed" people!

I upgraded to Vue 7 Infinite from day 1, they still haven't sorted the import of Poser shaders  and a whole host of other issues ongoing in version 7 and now they release this [soon] with a whopping price tag, it should be free to all users of Infinite and above period!

I won't be buying at that price, like Sirenia above I'm currently out of work so haven't got it and even if I did I wouldn't get it, it's a bloody rip off and if they don't price version 8 reasonably I won't get that either.
They should really open their eyes on this one before they lose a good swathe of their "loyal" customer base.
I'd argue with anyone that the majority of e-on's customers are hobby or small scale selling artists and not big Companies like ILM. If they want to alienate all of those, they're going the right way about it.
Rant over, but seriously I feel let down with the cost and the fact that Version 7 still doesn't work as it should.

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Quote - But how many of these programs go up SO HIGH in price so quickly? What was the price increase between Vue5I, Vue6I and Vue7I 

 

Vue 5 Infinite shipped March 14, 2005 and sold for $599.
Vue 6 Infinite shipped in October 2006 and sold for $699
Vue 7 Infinite shipped in October 2009 and sold for $895

 

People, read the Vue7 feature list at e-on: 90% of the 7.5 features will be released for free as a 7.4 update, is this also bad for their loyal user base?
Don't you want to know what you're talking about, or are you just in the mood for a rant?
And thefixer, those who'll buy 7.5 don't give a damn about Poser. I know it's important for you, but they want cloud masks.

*And thefixer, those who'll buy 7.5 don't give a damn about Poser.

*I know that Bruno and that wasn't the point I was making. Sure I use Poser a lot inside Vue because e-on said that they work together.....in their words "seamlessly".
But to be honest you're making assumptions that I only ever use Poser inside Vue and nothing else because that is all I post here, you couldn't be more wrong.
I do commercial work also that sometimes does, but mostly doesn't have Poser content in so maybe I would like some of these better features also.
I don't consider myself a pro but I do make some money off what I do.

What I'm pissed about is that I spent on 7 Infinite when it came out, what less than 12 Months ago and now they release another version when they haven't even got this current one running properly and at a price to the "loyal despite all the problems" customer base.
Maybe they need to decide once and for all which direction they want to go in.

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

No, I wasn't assuming anything, I was just saying that some features are important to the hobbyist market, and other features are important to the pro market. And I think e-on made themselves clear with Vue7, clearly separating the 2 markets with Pionneer to Complete on the hobbyist side, and Inf & xSt on the pro side.
Choosing your camp at that time was tough, and implied more that paying more or less for your software, it also implied that you would follow along the pro path if you chose Infinite, that has features clearly implemented for the big studios, and not for those who want to make a pretty picture of a naked V4 (just an example, not aimed at anyone, I do some naked V4 too).

Bruno, I dare say there are many of us that fall between the 2 camps such as myself, mainly a hobbyist but also make some money out of it. It's becoming more difficult to decide which way to go.

As far as 7.5 goes, and this is obviously only my view, I won't be paying for an upgrade this time out, especially as they've apparently said that the upgrade price from 7 and 7.5 to 8 will be the same!
That makes no sense and doesn't encourage me to buy 7.5 when I can wait for version 8 and get it at the same price as someone who does upgrade to 7.5!!??? It's nuts, essentially they are saying that if you buy 7.5 at $300 you have to pay to get 8 at say another $400, making $700, whereas if I don't buy 7.5, I can still upgrade from 7 for $400 thereby saving myself $300, bloody crazy!!
Someone whoever thought of this pricing scheme over there needs a good kick up the arse, Alan Sugar would have fired him ages ago!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

I think the "same upgrade price to 8 from 7 or 7.5" seals it for me ... it's a no brainer to wait until 8 comes out. Still learning the new v7 features and enjoying those for now.

Will the 7.5 features be included in the v8 release? If so, it's a COMPLETE no brainer to wait, unless you're a pro studio who needs the new stuff yesterday.

Exactly, Richard, I think too that this upgrade is for those who have a mantenance plan, it gives them new features, and important ones like cloud masks, and works also as an incentive to buy those plans. For this reason, I don't think the pricing is stupid. Only the big studios who need the new features will buy 7.5, and the others will get it for free if they have a plan.
The rest will get most of the new features for free with 7.4, and can wait for Vue8 knowing the upgrade path will be standard.
Thefixer, I agree the line can be very thin between artist/studio products. Choosing sides was a tough desicion e-on forced us to make.

I can't find the comparison chart at e-on, can someone point me in the right direction please.
From what I've seen, probably the only feature I would want is the planet stuff, if that's part of 7.4, great, if not I'll wait for 8.
I've calmed down a bit now after the initial shock!! [LOL].

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Just my thoughts:

As I read the news about 7.5 the first time at E-on's site I was confused about the pricing like many others.

Pay 295,00 for the upgrade and when Vue8 will come out pay again the full update price...

The more I think about it,  I did not fand that too bad.

With the 7.4 update we will receive a lot of features of the 7.5 update  for free.

The features not included in the free update are probably requested by some "pro users".

Those "pro users" usually have a "pro budget" for software updates, and for them $ 295,00 isn't that much.

For me - using Vue as a hobby - the missing features are not very interesting and I am glad to

get some new features for free.

And I do not have to pay twice for the 7.5 update and the 8 release.

Cheers

Ralf

 

 

Cheers

Ralf

   Quote - "Someone whoever thought of this pricing scheme over there needs a good kick up the arse"

thefixer, read my previous post in this thread. If you think about it, you'll see that this pricing scheme is very intelligent.

People are now ranting about 7.5 being too expensive when in fact you should be happy that 7.4 has a lot of the same features and it's free!!! And furthermore, whoever doesn't buy 7.5 will not pay more for the upgrade to 8. This is excellent, what else could you ask??

I really don't understand the reason of all these complaints. Concentrate on the positive things!

Thefixer, it's in the Vue7 infinite feature list. Check the features marked as NEW, and it's wrtitten when the new feature is with 7.4

Quote - People, read the Vue7 feature list at e-on: 90% of the 7.5 features will be released for free as a 7.4 update, is this also bad for their loyal user base?
Don't you want to know what you're talking about, or are you just in the mood for a rant?
And thefixer, those who'll buy 7.5 don't give a damn about Poser. I know it's important for you, but they want cloud masks.

I will have to look more closely then.  i did not see anything about 7.4 other than it saying it would have new features.  I didn't see where it said what those features were, or that it would have 90% of the 7.5 features.  I could be blind. 

OK, I am blind.   I looked again and now see that the designation of what is in the 7.4 update is at the end of the line.  Maybe they should have posted it at the beginning to make it easier for dolts like me to see.  :-)

John

I didn't see anything worth 50% of the cost of V7I  in the 7.5 upgrade, so like everyone else here, I'll just wait for the 8.0 version as well, and evaluate the costs then.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

OK, upon further thought i am not as bothered by this as I was at first.

I think E-On is conciously trying to ween hobbyist users off of the Infinite line; and towards the Complete line.  It would not surprise me if Vue 8 Xstream rises to 1995.00 and Infinite to 1295.00.

They could then offer us Complete for around 500.00 - 700.00. 

Just my 2 1/2 cents.

John

Well, I guess I'm glad I waited to upgrade 6...

I just don't see what was so urgent about new features that it couldn't wait for a full 8 release. Why bother release a half-way product when you could just take the time and do it right? While some of the features in the list are nice, there is no drop-down must have feature unless you're using a program like XSI. E-on should have just released the .4 update and waited until 8 was ready to release the rest. It doesn't benefit anyone to rush these things out the door and try to nickel and dime your loyal customers.

so this is the email of HTML I got this morning......

The problem is that e-on customers are beta testers. All releases are beta since e-on don't know how to test them.
People hope the bugs will be fixed in next version, pay for but next version comes with new bugs. It's no ending.

They don't even know how to make a software, algorithm maybe, not software.
I have waste too much time to fill bug reports without any fix, so I'm tired of installation, upgrade, downgrade this piece of sh.
So I'm staying at Vue 6.
If I find an alternate, I will throw Vue to the trash with no regrets. Too many hope. Too bad implementation. Too much frustrating.
Really there is a market for Vue frustated customers , sort of Open Vue that could imports Vue files like OpenOffice import MSWord ;)

Quote - The comparative chart at e-on says terrain painting will be in 7.4, and looks like many other features will be too.

Where is this comparative chart, please? I can not find it.

Bruno,
yer way too positive about this ;)

The vast majority of Vue users are not studios,  and as I noted, what damn near killed a lot of the big apps was them getting too arrogant and greedy so they priced themselves out of  the reach of anything but studios and pirates...which wrecked their legit user base.

Vue is an art app, not an ICBM launch control software! :D
ANYONE can now use any version of Vue, except Xstream plugins (as that requires another app), on their home PCs, right?
What I'm saying about 3 versions of Vue, is to fit Vue to the 3 types of real user there are:

-Beginners/happy to be amateurs who don't need more expense/hassles
-dedicated amateurs/semi-pro (which many here are)
-Pro and/orstudio (who only need Vue for landscape/plant combined with their main feature app such as 3DMAX)

Vue is merely an ADD ON app to the "Big boys" and here E-On better get it's act together, for it's real support is the amateurs, not the pros, who may drop it in an instant if a new, better solution comes aorund. Then where will E-On be if they piss off their real dedicated customers?

Wise man never ever angers his core user base, I've seen it happen so often to smart arse corporates who end up wrecking it all or leaving simmering resentment etc.

You do not need ot be, nor should ever encourage Vue to be an arrogant, "studio pro only" app. There is a hell of a lot of snobbery and short sightedness like that out there. Guy on CG talk got lots of compliments, until he said he'd used Poser...

Again, the reality of what E-On has done doesn't matter...they have done it in a way that looks very bad. I love Vue, I want it to continue, E-On is making this less likely by being nitwits in certian areas:
over complexity, over priced (that graph proves it obviously); not being saavy in how they do things with customers.
If they had any sense they'd make 7.5 free or have done things a LOT better, jeesh.

Oh, and Bruno, I've always liked Nixon's statement: "When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will surely follow!"
Works for me, especially with a good old fashioned mole grip! :D

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

Quote - > Quote - The comparative chart at e-on says terrain painting will be in 7.4, and looks like many other features will be too.

Where is this comparative chart, please? I can not find it.

Look at the feature list for Vue 7 at E-on's site.  There are several of the listings that say new in 7.4.

Quote - The vast majority of Vue users are not studios, and as I noted, what damn near killed a lot of the big apps was them getting too arrogant and greedy so they priced themselves out of the reach of anything but studios and pirates...which wrecked their legit user base.

While I don't know if the vast majority of Vue users are not studios, an even more important question is where does the vast majority of the sales revenue come from? I doubt either you or I know the answer to that one.

Steven, you've always been such a great supporter of this community. It's clear you're upset. But, I'm not sure you won't calm down once you realize there's no penalty for not upgrading now, and you can get Vue 8 for the same price. 

As Bruno said, this is an upgrade for the studios-- the professionals. It's not meant to be something for the hobbyists, and that's one reason it's marked 7.5 and not 8-- so as to not make you feel like you need to have it. That should be clear not only with it's focus on maintenance agreements, but also with e-on's generous consideration that if you don't upgrade now, no worries, you can upgrade to 8.0 for the same fee.

 

I think I'm probably going to go the 7.4 - 8 route myself.  I don't lose much (if anything) doing that and it means I get to let the real big boys iron out the kinks :biggrin:

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E-On managed to shoot themselves in their feet egregiously.

Had they waited the eve of SIGGRAPH 09 and announced something more of the current feature list, it would have been a reasonable .5 upgrade; if you add the assurance that people could go from 7 to 8 with one upgrade step, it would have been reasonably good news.

Instead, done has it has been done, it is a blantant reaction to the release of Terragen 2, with just enough features to match it. It gives exactly the fealing that E-On wants to deliver as little as possible to be just above the competition. Add that a firm like E-On looks afraid of a 2-man operation like Planetside... anything to add?

Bye!!!

P.S.: ..then two journalists took Tricky Dick by HIS balls and threw him out of the White House.

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Chipp
I don't trust E-On anymore. They are bungling this badly, please go look at forums from here, to DAZ, to CG talk and other places...it's got  a big thumbs down how they have handled this.
As said, it's not always the reality that is important, but how things are seen to be done, like in politics, ya know?
I don''t mean "lies and spin" those are exactly what get folk angry and are most unforgivable.

I may support things, but when they are doing something seriously wrong,  I'll jump on them like anything or anyone else that's messed up.
It is stupid, dishonourable and against the long term surviviability of Vue, for E-On to have done this.

In a time of economic fear and trouble, when other apps give free upgrades...and then to have an upgrade that if you decide ot pay extra for it...you get no re-imbursment of vue8 purchase, AND Vue7 has been only out for 5 months or so and this paid for update comes out, and we've never had "Pay for" updates before...it leaves a very bad taste.

It seems the industry now regards us as peons to rent their product by the year, and then one day, by the month, the week, the day if they so decide. (See how Newtek and Autodesk seem to be shifting their outlooks...)
Corporate greed & stupidity destroyed our economies, the lesson has obviously not been learned in this arena, or that we shouldn't tolerate it at all, anywhere, ever again.

Rome did not fall because of one specific act, but a serious of stupid crap and external events.
I do not want to find Vue dead in the water one day like I had to go through with Bryce, because corporate suits have lost the plot, again....
Go look ou there, folk are pissed about this, they are fed up with bugs, they are fed up with a Byzantine stupid price/product list for Vue.

Vue is a good app, it's designers come up with amazing things, that is not the issue. The issue is that Vue is being badly handled. E-On needs to get it's finger out, and TALK to us customers and treat us as valued customers, not peons.
It's obvious what needs to be done, but corporates often, like politics, back themselves into a corner they refuse to get out of before the walls fall on top of 'em. I've seen it recently in another arena I care about.
Arrogance and failing to listen cost a company a HUGE amount of respect and tolerance from customers, and a lot of money. It was their attitude and how things were done that caused this, not that their product was bad.

Alex,
lol, true, but, off topic, that almost couldn't happen nowadays, look at how gutless and vapid the media have become :(

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as an owner of TG2, I don't think it's too much of a threat to Vue at the moment.  The render engine is still painfully slow and there's no ecosystems.

If you think this is bad, what about when XSI put $1000 onto the price of Essentials - now that's a price hike :biggrin:

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And offtopic, Terragen 2, I didn't realise it had been released, but now it has the images are absolutely amazing, good job Planetside!

Jon

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I tell you, the more I read statements from alexcoppo and Silverblade, the less I understand your reaction. Would you please read both my posts and tell me where I'm thinking wrong?

Must confess I'm not sure what's causing the upset either. Sounds to me like e-on has offered a pretty good deal by giving both 7.4 and 7.5 users a v8 upgrade for the same price.

Or maybe I'm missing something ...

Quote - I dont mean to drone on but really, shouldnt they consider fixing the problems with the current program rather than lumping out extra things we have to pay for?

I've been using Vue since version 2 and I haven't seen E-On do anything else then that. They always fix the bugs from the previous version in the next version and then manage to create new bugs. It's an ongoing thing, they only way to stop such behaviour is a massive boycott of their products, something like the currency exchange rate one we had a number of years back.

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Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I've been using Vue intensively for more than 2 years and I've come across only a fairly small amount of bugs. And for all the bugs I encountered, there was always a workaround. I'm a happy customer.

Quote - I've been using Vue intensively for more than 2 years and I've come across only a fairly small amount of bugs. And for all the bugs I encountered, there was always a workaround. I'm a happy customer.

QFT  - I love Vue to bits :)

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Vue 5 Infinite, even for me, was buggy as hell for the first 6 months, ugh.
VUe 6 was less so and nearly all bugs gone by 6 month period.
Vue 7 is even less buggy than 6 and was moslty ok for me from the start, BUT, it is much much smoother on 64 bit systems with lots of RAM than on 32 bit systems. It really is a night and day difference. Not everyone has such rigs though.

the modular upgrade approach is causing bugs/problems for some, it's obviously a stupid over complexity.
Just sell Vue Studio for $100, Infinite for $400, Xstream for $740, and end that crap!! 3 versions, less wasted time for bug hunting.
Simples! he says like a Russian Meerkat (British joke :p http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/home )

MAC users seem to have a LOT of troubles with Vue :/

Crafty, Rutra,
economic meltdown...folk lack money...not a good time to be asking for more money, especiallyhen many other companies are giving free upgrades,discounts etc.

Pixilogic, I've went from v2 Zbrush to to soon v4 for free.
Lightwave v8, now to 9.5 all free and big savings if I had went for Lightwave Core.

E-On's product is less than 6 months old, and now they want more money for an add on, but if you buy that add on, that $295 will not come off Vue8 price.
And way E-On has done it all, as if only Studios matter to them as customers.

You may not see it, but that's what a lot of folk are getting from this, and are angry.

"Let them eat cake" was not a good thing ot say, at a certain moment in history :D (Whether she said it or not doesn't matter, the very idea blew folks's stacks because they were suffering...bad timing)

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

Quote - "I've been using Vue intensively for more than 2 years and I've come across only a fairly small amount of bugs. And for all the bugs I encountered, there was always a workaround. I'm a happy customer.
"

Quote - QFT  - I love Vue to bits :)

Me three! But also I'm fortunate to be on a Windows 64 bit system with lots of RAM.

I also own Cinema 4d and chose not to upgrade to 10.5 from 10.1 last year - now that hurt when I upgraded to v11 - painfully close to the original purchase price for my core version. Sounds like  going from Vue 7.4 to 8 won't be nearly so painful. I also have had Zbrush from v1.4 and gotten free upgrades all along and I must admit that's been pretty nice (I honestly don't know how Pixologic can do this and still make money)

This is not to downplay the fact that the economy is not good at all, and many of us are having to make choices where it would have been a "no brainer" in the not so distant past. Here's hoping for all of our sakes the economy picks up. There are so many who are really struggling

I've been using Vue 6 Infinite since it got out, and haven't updated since the amount of new stuff I want doesn't justify the price. I won't upgrade until the new feature to price ratio shift for me, which may be 8, or 9, or never.

 Steven,

You really need to face the fact, you are NOT e-on's targeted customer for their Professional line which includes Infinite. By your own admission, you are a hobbyist. 

More than a year and a half ago, I had a discussion with an e-on person and they disclosed to me they were losing sales because they did not have a maintenance plan in place. It's clear to me (perhaps not to you) they have since set up two different product lines: the Professional line and the Artist product line.

If you want to own a professional line product, then prepare to pay for it like the professionals have to. Or else, consider staying with the Artist line. I know you are in a situation where you cannot afford to commit to continued expenses associated with the Pro line. I understand you feel angry, betrayed, and frustrated. Truthfully, that is the way it is now in all 3D programs. They all have subscription plans where it's less expensive to purchase a maintenance agreement than pay out of pocket for each upgrade. That's just how it is. You don't have to like, or accept it. But you won't change it.

Of course, I too see the complaining in other forums-- most of it is from from the same audience-- the hobbyists. That is no surprise to me.

Steven, thanks again for your tutorials and support on this forum. You've always been a great contributor and solid citizen, and it is because of your consistent and helpful attitude I continue to spend time replying to you.

I hope things do work out for you and you continue to support this community as you would be sorely missed in all the forums you so generously participate.

-Chipp

 

Quote - MAC users seem to have a LOT of troubles with Vue :/

I can certainly vouch for that. While Vue 6 infinite started out a little buggy on the Mac, it ultimately became a very stable application and I had no qualms about upgrading to version 7. Unfortunately that was a bad choice as Vue 7 Infinite on the Mac is one of the most buggy pieces of software I've ever used. Seriously. For every bug I report, I encounter two more and very few of them have been resolved to date. Perhaps the free 7.4 update will fix everything that's outstanding, but I'm really not holding my breath at this point.

While I'm not a major studio by any stretch, I do work commercially and like with anyone dealing with clients and deadlines, I require reliable tools and Vue 7 Infinite is not one of them. To that end I am still using version 6 for pretty much everything and just using 7 as a renderer, the one thing it's actually pretty good at on the Mac. I really think that before e-on tries to sell an update of any kind, they should fix the software that users have already paid for.

As it stands today I feel like I gave e-on a good chunk of money to beta test  their software without any sort of payoff. I'm not bagging on Vue as I truly love the application, but can't understand e-on's thinking on this at all. If they continue down the path of releasing buggy, half-baked software and overpriced paid 'point' upgrades before fixing the existing bugs, I'm going to have to start looking for an alternative as I can't keep working like this, nor can I afford to. 

 Hi there, I didn't really understand the newsletter.
If I do want to buy the 7.5 upgrade what is the best thing to do.  I bought vue 7 xstream when it first came out.  I don't remember seeing a maintenance package being offered.
If I buy a maintenance package now then can i get vue 7.5 immediately?
Love esther

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Quote -  Hi there, I didn't really understand the newsletter.
If I do want to buy the 7.5 upgrade what is the best thing to do.  I bought vue 7 xstream when it first came out.  I don't remember seeing a maintenance package being offered.
If I buy a maintenance package now then can i get vue 7.5 immediately?
Love esther

Yes,  when you get the maintenance package, you can download a pre-release version of Vue 7.5 immediately.

 thanks.
Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

 do u think this free one would do the job of allowing me to download  vue 7.5?
Priority Support Incident
Requires a registered license of Vue 7 US$0.00

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

 found a link that explains it and I need the more expensive one.
Love esther

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Esther,

What you will need is Standard Maintenance for Vue 7 xStream which goes for $595.

Also, it will only last for a year from when you purchased Vue 7 xStream, not when you purchase the plan-- so be sure you know you want the features in 7.5 before purchasing it as it is expensive.

 

 no that doesn't seem correct:-
"“Effective Date” is the date at which you purchased the maintenance plan."

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Chip,

The way I read E-Ons' newsletter is that it will cost me $595 to upgrade to xStream 7.5 and then another $595 to upgrade to xStream 8.0.  If I do not upgrade to 7.5, it will cost me $1190 to upgrade to xStream 8.0 when it comes out.  Sorry, but that is the way I understand E-Ons' language in upgrading from 7.0 to 8.0.

I upgraded my copy of Infinite 6 to xStream 7 because I wanted to try a few things with 3D Studio Max (which I still have to buy).  Now, my employer re-imburses me for AutoCAD and CAiCE maintenance fees, but any additional apps I buy and play with, I pay for myself until I can prove to my employer that I can bring benefit to our company with those apps.

Hence, I am willing to upgrade, but I do not want nor need the maintenance option until I can make xStream pay for itself.  People like me, who need to learn and play to get to know the product are being priced out of the ballpark.  I do believe in keeping oneself current and on top of knowledge, but to have to spend $1500/year (upgrade & maintenance) just to learn on the latest is a bit too much for me.

Yes - I would LOVE to get the Academic version - does Paula Sanders' course apply?

I hope that I am wrong about the xStream upgrade to 8.0 because I cannot afford the upgrade to 7.5 nor the maintenance fees at this time.  (I just may be able to afford 3D Studio Max with my Income Tax refund.)  Also, as maintenance is yearly and xStream seems to be upgraded a full point release every 2 years, the upgrade from 7 to 8 using maintenance fees would cost $1190 anyway.

Could be worse... E-On could go "belly-up" in this economy (hope not).

Ester...

I think you are not correct but Chip is.  The maintenance plan starts from the date when you purchased xStream, not when you purchased the plan.  In other words, you may have lost 3 months already from the first plan purchase if you bought xStream 3 months ago.  The plan starts/renews from the anniversary of when you first purchased xStream.  That's how I read E-Ons' language anyway.  Elaborate if you pursue this further please.

Cheers...

 How can that be.  Here is the user agreement from e-on:-

Maintenance Plan Agreement Your use of a Maintenance Plan is subject to the terms and conditions set forth below (the “Agreement”).

1.       Definitions

For purposes of this Agreement, the following terms shall have the respective meanings indicated below:

“Support Services” means any product or service that may be provided to you from time to time by e-on software as part of your Maintenance Plan. E-on software reserves the right to add or remove services to the Maintenance Plan, at its sole discretion, and without prior notification. Support services provided by e-on software are provided solely in English.

“EULA”, “End User License Agreement” refers to e-on software’s standard end user license agreement included with each copy of an e-on software product.

“Account”, “User account” refers to the web-page at http://www.e-onsoftware.com/support/account.php, or any successor URL provided by e-on software, where you registered your products and maintenance plans, and provided the personal information required by e-on software.

“You”, the person or entity who uses the product that is under maintenance.

“Effective Date” is the date at which you purchased the maintenance plan.

“Business Day” is a day that is neither Saturday, Sunday nor an e-on software designated holiday.

“Business hours” are 9AM-5PM Pacific Standard Time on normal business days.

“License Server” refers to the e-on software License Server, the purpose of which is to hand out product licenses to users on a network.

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

 And you will get the full version 8 when it comes out for free:-
'Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,"

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

 as long as the maintenance period hasn't expired.
Love esther

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Quote - I think the "same upgrade price to 8 from 7 or 7.5" seals it for me ... it's a no brainer to wait until 8 comes out.

E-on has re-worded their press release for other sites.  It looks to me like the upgrade price from either 7 or 7.5 to 8 is the same only if you subscribe to their maint fee.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

 but 8 is free if you have the maintenance plan...

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Quote -  but 8 is free if you have the maintenance plan...

True.  But you are paying for the maintenance plan to get 7.5 and 8 for free.  And sometimes you have to renew your subscription again before the next version is released.  They should use a different word for free.  I don't buy maintenance fees because companies put less updates into their software when they do that.  I'd rather wait for Vue 9.  It should have enough updates worth paying for.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Ester...

I've re-read the Maintenance agreement.  Please note section 4.1...

4.1     Effective Date; Term.

"The effective date (“Effective Date”) of the initial term (“Initial Term”) of your Maintenance Plan will be the earlier of (i) the date at which you initially purchased the Maintenance Plan, (ii) the date of first activation of the product placed under maintenance and (iii) the date of release of a full or .5 upgrade to the product version for which you purchased this Maintenance Plan, or any other date determined by e-on software in accordance with e-on software’s support policies. "

"Renewal terms of your Maintenance Plan will begin on the anniversary date of the Effective Date, and will continue for one (1) year from the later of the anniversary of the Effective Date and the preceding renewal term."

Ester,
Please check the wording of  "will be the earlier of "  and "(ii) the date of first activation of the product placed under maintenance".

That tells me that your maintenance agreement will start from when you first activated your copy of xStream, and that your maintenance agreement will be backdated to that date.

Technically, you could argue for (iii), but my feeling is that E-On would push for (ii).

Also, if you let your maintenance agreement expire and then want to re-establish it...

"If you wish to reinstate your expired Maintenance Plan, you will be required to agree to the then current e-on software Maintenance Plan Subscription Agreement, and you will be required to purchase at least both the then-current software product release and a Maintenance Plan for that Release. You may also be subject to the payment of additional fees and expenses."

I'm only assuming that from what I read from the Maintenance Agreement.  Ester, I suggest that you contact E-On and get a clarification to your satisfaction before you commit yourself.  I could be wrong and have to eat my words, but from what I've read in the maintenancve agreeement I do not think I am.  I would love for someone to prove me wrong on that.

Cheers,
JoeK

Quote - How can that be.  Here is the user agreement from e-on:-

"Effective Date" is the date at which you purchased the maintenance plan."

The problem is that the detailed explanation at 4.1 of the Maintenance Plan Agreement popup window (here) -- is contradictory to the bit you copied:

"4.1     Effective Date; Term.

The effective date ("Effective Date”) of the initial term ("Initial Term”) of your Maintenance Plan will be the earlier of (i) the date at which you initially purchased the Maintenance Plan, (ii) the date of first activation of the product placed under maintenance and (iii) the date of release of a full or .5 upgrade to the product version for which you purchased this Maintenance Plan..."

According to (ii), since I bought Vue last Nov., if I bought the plan today it will expire in November 2009, not in May 2010; because it is the earliest of the 3 events above. Unless I'm misinterpreting this?

P.S. Thanks for beating me to it, surveyman!! 
AnyHOO, I put a link directly to the agreement, so THERE! lol

Ah... at least 2 of us see the wording the same way.  Must be something to it.

Why would anyone need a more expensive app unless their job required it or they made their living freelancing on a very professional level? Sometimes I think there are people out there that have to have every new version of something or they feel like they are an "incomplete" person or the feel the need to keep up with the other guy. If you're just an hobbyist or a person that makes some money on the side why shoot for apps that are so expensive especially in this economy. That or your income is on line with a small nation.

Over the last year I have been working for a company and a client that requires that the majority of work, especially outside scenes, be done in Vue. We have updated from Vue 6 infinite to Vue 7 infinite now mind you these are professional people both in movie work, game development and animation and have been so for over 30 years. Infinite fits their needs yes they could purchase the 7.5 upgrade with no problem but they aren't.

Crap ya know what I don't even know where I am going with this....LOL! All I can say is I see all sides but it comes down to this if ya need it for your work go for it! IF not save your money cause with things as they are, unless you're a king of a small nation with more money that you know what to do with, one doesn't know how long they have at their job and how long the money is going to last. I do agree strongly that with the world economy as it is now is not the time to holding your hand out for more from people that don't have it.

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Quote -  And you will get the full version 8 when it comes out for free:-
'Free upgrades during the subscription period, including free upgrades to all .5 and full versions,"

Esther, that is true only if Vue 8 is released within the term of your maintenance agreement. IOW, if you purchase a maintenance agreement now, and it's renew date (the date you originally purchased xStream--NOT the date of purchase of the maintenance agreement) is 6 months from now, then if Vue 8 has not been released between now and then you will not get an upgrade to it. You must then purchase another maintenance agreement when this one expires. Think of a maintenance agreement more like a subscription. My guess is Vue 8 would not be out by next October, though I certainly could be wrong.

What e-on is saying is you do not have to purchase Vue 7.5 to be eligible for the same upgrade pricing to 8.0. IOW, folks without a maintenance agreement who currently own Vue 7.0 will pay the same to upgrade to 8.0 as those with 7.5.

And those with a current maintenance agreement will pay nothing to update to 8.0

 

Chip,

I have to disagree with you.  I feel that the upgrade cost from 7.0 to 8.0 will be the same as an upgade cost to 7.5 and then an additional cost to upgrade from 7.5 to 8.0.  By E-On saying that the upgrade costs will be the same - to me - means that you will pay the full cost of the upgrade whether you do that now (to 7.5 - incrementaly, then again to 8.0) or later (to 8.0 - full cost upgrade - both "to 7.5" and "7.5 to 8.0") .

I cannot see E-On cutting financial slack to people not on maintenance agreements or who do not wish to stay current.  In fact I feel that E-On will make it painfully expensive for anyone wishing to upgrade outside of a maintenance agreement.

I am also predicting that E-On will go the AutoDESK way - yearly full point paid for upgrades.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking E-ON, it's just what I see happening given the way things have developed so far

Cheers....

 

Upon further reflection, i think surveyman may well be correct.  It could be interpreted that way.

John

 If you look at the bottom of this page:
http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/newsletter/

You will see:

*The cost of the upgrade to the next version of Vue will be the same
whether you upgrade from Vue 7 or Vue 7.5.

 

Chipp, what you copied is only the footnote - in the press release - to the following sentence:

...However, e-on software strongly recommends that they consider subscribing to a maintenance plan instead, as this may prove more cost effective...*

Just to be precise in quoting.

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

I did see that.  However, just for kicks let's use round numbers.

Say the upgrade price from 7.5 to 8  is 300.00.
The upgrade from 7.0 could be 595.00, and that statement would still be correct because both camps would have spent the same amount to upgrade to version 8.

I hope that isn't the case, but I can see how it might be the case.

John

John,

That is precisely what I am saying.  That is what I see happening.

The only free item I've read about from E-on for non-subscribers is version 7.4.  7.5 will be a "pay for" and so will 8.0.  I'm guessing 7.0 to 8.0 will cost more than 7.0 to 7.5 to 8.0.  That is the Vue of  things.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Hate to say I told you so...

We were told incremental paid upgrades were eon's policy, so no one should be surprised.

The writing has been on the internet-web-wall for a long time.

E-on is cashing out seeing how much money they can milk out of their customers.

I know people who upgrade every software they have just to be current.  I've seen companies with this same motto. 

In the long run e-on will lose but they stand to cash in on some quick money this year while the world economy tanks.

Even Chipp has to see that this is off base and no way to treat long time customers!

According to my understanding, with 295$ you can:

1. get now 7.5, with the 7.5 -> 8 step for free, or...
2. jump from 7 -> 8 later on

which is not a bad proposition, money-wise.

The problems are:

1. features are being added just as reaction to other products and not as result of an indipendent product strategy and
2. you have to trust E-On word; as there is no signed contract between them and us about this issue, this offer is obviously open to Darth Vader like hope-I-won't-change-again-the-deal revisions later on.

Bye...

P.S.: today I visited a page in which a saw a video which made me wonder whether we are all like owners of horse-driven carts discussing about the merits of the different horses while a Ford T is passing along the road...

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 CobraEye,

I stopped taking seriously anything you or alexcoppo have to say a very long time ago. You've both shown yourself to be long time haters of e-on and Vue, so your opinions are always viewed in a skeptical light.

 

Chipp you are way off and very judgmental. 

Lighten up and show some respect for others even if they don't agree with you. 

I've been part of the vue community for a long time.  And you've been trying to label me for a long time.  It very unbecoming of you.

I bought Vue 6 Infinite and your Terrapak and love both very much.  Thank you for all your hard work and teaching me about materials and terrains.  I like your artwork, too.

But I disagree on almost everything else you think about vue and me,

I think I update to 7.5 for the $300 now. Then the next step to 8.0 will not be so money intense as a full step from 7.0 to 8.0 . The maintenance way I do not go, because I am on a PC and never had much trouble with Vue.

Mazak

Google+ Bodo Nittel 

I'm with you, Mazak. I'll start preparing now for the expense of 7.5, so v8 is a little less hard on the pocketbook. I'm on PC also and don't need the maintenance agreement, really just need to pay for the various releases, not support. CG is definitely an expensive habit, regardless!!

To be honest, I would wait until E-On clears it up a little.  I was just speculating. 

It very well may be that the full price to upgrade is the same from either 7.5 or 7.0.  If so, there wouldn't be any benefit to upgrade to 7.5 if your goal is to save money on 8.  You would actually be paying more in that case.

I know, I am clear as mud! 

John

Quote -
I stopped taking seriously anything you or alexcoppo have to say a very long time ago. You've both shown yourself to be long time haters of e-on and Vue, so your opinions are always viewed in a skeptical light.

Actually, if anybody is interested in that trivial concept called truth and searches old posts, I was a stauch supporter of Vue when E-On were behaving in a good way (and I showed it also several time, with a thing called credit card). I have also to add that I bought a certain package called... wait, if I remember well... haha yes! TerraPack (and I am satisfied of it, just the tip about texture antialiasing is worth the price).

Obviously, being a client and not a third party developer, I am not bound to follow the Party line and therefore, when I see behaviours which put to risk my investment (which for a hobbyst is not slight) I am understandably upset and voice it.

As I understand it, being a client gives you some right, not marks you as someone who has to be milked away in the most inhuman way, until he develops mad cow disease... at least this is the way I behave with my clients, respecting them and, when they exceed the alert stupidity level, softly trying to educate them. I always remember that, if I can put something in the dish twice a day, it is not because I am entitled to it but because clients keep paying my bills.

Bye...

GIMP 2.7.4, Inkscape 0.48, Genetica 3.6 Basic, FilterForge 3 Professional, Blender 2.61, SketchUp 8, PoserPro 2012, Vue 10 Infinite, World Machine 2.3, GeoControl 2

I would agree with cobra. Today is the first time I broke out my VUE 6 in a long rime. I have played with the easel beta vesion of & loved it and the new Ozone. I loved what they produced it was off putting to see I could produce musn better  pictures but cannot in this economic era justify the money.

@Jcleaver you and surveyman’s speculation is 100% correct. (We can bet on it) I also agree we have to wait and see first in e-on store an official update pricelist. For now we can only wait. I also hope the maintenance user (who becomes first a pre release) dig out the mayor bugs first. :laugh: (an idea I like)

Mazak

Google+ Bodo Nittel 

Quote - I've been using Vue 6 Infinite since it got out, and haven't updated since the amount of new stuff I want doesn't justify the price. I won't upgrade until the new feature to price ratio shift for me, which may be 8, or 9, or never.

I'm in the same boat , with the way Vue is being priced these days never is looking like the best option for upgrading for me .

cheers

how much u want for it?

Quote - Well that does it for me. I started with version 4.   I can't afford Vue anymore.  I very reluctantly paid to go from 6inf to 7inf.  This is the last straw.  I'm unregistering all my Vue software and selling it all.  Time to bail out.  Bye E-on.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Anyone being strongarmed into upgrading to 7.5?

I decided to go with Vue 7 xStream, despite the cost. It turned out to be a mistake. I haven’t used it enough to justify the expense and when I have, it has been mainly as a standalone application. I can’t get too upset about e-on charging for the insignificant additions in version 7.5. They will be giving away the material-painting feature for free in version 7.4, and that’s the only thing that interested me on the feature list. It seems possible that version 8 won’t have enough new features to justify the price, but I’ll have to wait and see. Every new release comes with its bugs, and some of them can make the software pretty useless. It’s no wonder studios weren’t purchasing because there was no maintenance plan. I’ve never seen software that needed a maintenance plan more. (That being said, version 7 was an improvement in performance and stability and even recognized my video card!) It’s the wave of the future to make the beta-testers pay for the privilege. NewTek is doing the same with Core and has hinted about giving away the next Lightwave 9 upgrade only to those who have joined the pre-release Core club. It didn’t make a lot of people happy but time will tell what the effect will be on the cash flow.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

I would like to make planets with Vue.  Vue 7.5 seems to make it easier.  But if 7.5 doesn't render planets any better than the long harder way 7 does, then I don't need 7.5 and will wait and see what 8 has.  But if I don't buy 7.5, version 8 will cost more to upgrade to.  If I buy the maintenance deal, I'm paying for something that I have no clue about that doesn't exist yet.  And I may have to re-pay again if a release is pushed back for some reason, still not knowing what the release will have in it.  It's gambling.  Plain and simple.  But nothing is forcing me to get 7.5.  7.0 works great for me except for one or two things it can't do that 7.5 won't be doing either.  So I'm more interested in what 8.0 will have in it.

I wish E-on would show off new features of their products like Luxology, DAZ, and e-frontier do before official releases.  Then you know if you want the upgrade or not.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

I think it's silly to label anyone who voices their opinions against e-on as "Vue haters". It's pretty clear to me e-on has done things to deserve being called upon lately. Their prices have been going way up, their bugs and issues that Vue has keep happening, their support is consistently receiving bad comments, and so on. I love Vue, I just wish their new versions would focus more on fixing things and be more reasonably priced. It really looks like e-on has been biten by the Autodesk bug that says they can charge crazy amounts, but I'm not sure they have the monopoly that Autodesk has to force those kind of prices.

We are still sitting on the fence as to wether to buy Vue or not.
If we buy it, we will purchase the full xStream version with the maintenance package.

We use all 64 bit PC's for workstations and Our render farm.
We will be  pro user from the standpoint we will use it for production purposes.

My concern is for all the bad feelings toward e-on, and all the bugs we hear about.

I would actually like to meet with someone to buy the software, meaning I would drive or fly to where they are and make sure we will get the level of support promised.

Unfortunately it seems the hype from new releases doesnt live up to expectations, particularly given the number of bugs.

We have asked other professionals in our line of work that use Max on PC's and with one exception, they all say and perceive Vue to be very bug prone and unreliable.

I would also like to see some discount offered from e-on for high dollar purchases (Our price tag with maintenance will be around $3,500 US).

I would also like to have some recourse should the software prove unreliable to the point it becomes unusable, meaning a window of time where we could receive a refund.

There has to some reasonable solution.

Best regards,
David

Dave, how about downloading the PLE version to see yourself, on your own machine, how it goes? AND, if you want to talk to someone, how about telling us in which region of this little world you are located?

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

Wabe,
It is on my list of things to do (download the PLE).
One reason I have been hesitant is I had heard 7.0 was still pretty buggy as far as the max integration of xStream, and didnt want to prejudice my decision. We had tested versions 5 and 6 before and found them unusable...

We are located just north of Atlana, GA (right between Chattanooga and Atlanta actually).

Thanks,
David

Unfortunately we don't use xStream for our work we use Vue 7 Infinite so I probably not much help to you David.  However, we are very pleased with Infinite its been very stable on our machines which are i7 quads running a 64 bit OS. Most of our work is probably not as intensive as what you are doing David but we've been very happy with Vue 7 Infinite.

We most likely will install the 7.4 update and wait on 8 to see of it has more in the way features than 7.  With money so tight if 7 does the job for us we may not even go to 8 when it comes out.
My last post I was kinda working and posting so when I went back to read my post it was a little strange LOL!

I can understand why so many are upset in times like these it makes no sense to ask for more when your customers have less. And yes there are some big outfits that can lay down the cash but if the state of the world's economy continues how long will these big outfits be able to lay out the cash for big ticket items? If the everyday person is hurting it will not be long before the big guys do to you can't get water from a rock.

My Facebook Page

Quote - I think it's silly to label anyone who voices their opinions against e-on as "Vue haters".

Patrick, why don't you check out the last 50 or 60 posts of those particular guys here in the Vue forum. Try and find something they say nice about Vue. Then come to your own conclusion- I've already come to mine. 

Quote - It's pretty clear to me e-on has done things to deserve being called upon lately. Their prices have been going way up, their bugs and issues that Vue has keep happening, their support is consistently receiving bad comments

Yes, there are a few who complain about the things you mention. There also are many who are using Vue with spectacular results. Just because there are a few loud complainers, doesn't mean the program doesn't work for everyone. Furthermore, many of us have had support issues resolved in a polite and timely manner. I'm sorry you have had such disappointing results with Vue.

Everytime a new version of Vue comes out, the signal to noise ratio of the Vue complainers goes way up. It's just the way it is. A number of great artists and fine community contributors no longer spend any time here at the Vue Renderosity forums for just this reason. Certainly our loss, not theirs.

 

Chip,
I think it is important for people to be objective in their evaluations.

It is really easy to want someone to blame, and if you are having any problems with your software it becomes an easy target.

By the same token we as end users expect things to work as advertised and paid for.

Business models can change. A company needs to do what they need to do to stay in business. Most of us understand that. Prices go up. Mine have. It is just a fact of life.

I expect to pay a fair price for high end software. I also expect it to work. That doesnt make me a software "hater", just one with certain expectations.

Our clients expect a certain level of quality from us. If we don't deliver, they will go else where.
We as consumers have to do the same things. Unfortunatley we sometimes need to use our pocketbooks to communicate our displeasure when all else fails.

If any of us took our car to be repaired and it was not done correctly what would we do?
Would we accept it as the way it is or would we complain about it? Most reasonable people would complain and expect the situation to be rectified.

E-on does seem to have a different way of dealing with customers from what I have observed.
It can be a cultural thing as well.  I am not advocating vilifying anyone or a particular company.

Open and fair dialog is important.

I for one, speak directly regarding my observations. We were testing Ozone 4.0 Beta and the software crashed Max 24 times in one day. What should we say?  What opinions should we form from that? Isn't it fair to let others in the forums know the issues we have encountered?
We commented that the software was cool, but was a crash-fest. It was an honest evaluation.
It doesn't mean I am an E-on "hater"..

Best regards,
David

David,

I did not call you a hater.

Did you do as I ask and check out CobraEye's last 50 or 60 posts? 
Did you do the same for alexcoppo?

Please do not confuse regular complaints with someone who has a clear agenda to put down e-on and Vue every chance they have.

 

Chipp,
true, but Alex DOES have valid insights at times, mate, that's the difference between a "useless moaning git", and being a "grumpy git" 

What drives me cuckoo is the complete crap I read at times on the E-On forums, jeesh.
I don't mind someone blowing their stack when they paid $$$ and it's for their business and it goes to hell with bugs...
but when nitwits don't even bother to install latest updates...talk complete RUBBISH, repeatedly, without checking how things have changed between V5 or V6 versus V7
Or post "terragen, terragen!"...yes that frakkin PO's me off !! :tt2:

However I stil think E-On have made a major stumble here, and that there needs ot be fewer versions of Vue, and lowered prices. Art programs desperately need to be INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE
 

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

Quote - David,

I did not call you a hater.

Did you do as I ask and check out CobraEye's last 50 or 60 posts? 
Did you do the same for alexcoppo?

Please do not confuse regular complaints with someone who has a clear agenda to put down e-on and Vue every chance they have.

So you say that I am wrong advertising TerraPak?

Saying that just one of its features is worth all the money it costs?

hmm really a dastardly agenda, doesn't it?

Bye!!!

P.S.: I add another unspeakable action to my sins by saying that TerraPak is one of the few addons to Vue I was absolutely and fully satisfied with (really, no sarcasm at all).

GIMP 2.7.4, Inkscape 0.48, Genetica 3.6 Basic, FilterForge 3 Professional, Blender 2.61, SketchUp 8, PoserPro 2012, Vue 10 Infinite, World Machine 2.3, GeoControl 2

Ok, here's a re-working and extrapolation of Chipp's graph to highlight the problem that is soon to kick us all in the teeth.

red line = current slope of price hike from verison 6 to 7
Green line, previous price increase from 5 to 6.
Now, if that slope increases AGAIN...

NOW do folk see the problem? Remember, inflationary trends are not that bloody high, we're in a recession ya know

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

As another example of useless, trolling, disruptive post, I advise you to...

1. have a look at one Deviantart gallery about Vue 7.5 renders (http://nukeation.deviantart.com/) and...
2. its owner blog (http://blog.quadspinner.com/).

The most recent post in blog has a link to a free video (unfortunately a 54MB zipped file) in which there is a most detailed tutorial I have ever saw for Vue about creating a desert scene; also older posts contain extremely useful information (the one I found most fascinating is creating lighting using white off-image objects and global radiosity, just like in a photo studio).

Bye from the Troll you All like to Hate!!!

GIMP 2.7.4, Inkscape 0.48, Genetica 3.6 Basic, FilterForge 3 Professional, Blender 2.61, SketchUp 8, PoserPro 2012, Vue 10 Infinite, World Machine 2.3, GeoControl 2

Quote - The most recent post in blog has a link to a free video (unfortunately a 54MB zipped file) in which there is a most detailed tutorial I have ever saw for Vue about creating a desert scene; also older posts contain extremely useful information (the one I found most fascinating is creating lighting using white off-image objects and global radiosity, just like in a photo studio).

Thank you, Alex, for that link. It's a super blog.

 

Attached Link: Vue bugs and solutions(?)

I dont argue with e-on's pricing. I dont argue with what features they chose to include. It's their business.They may make a killig - good luck to them. They may price themselves out of the market.- shame if that happens. I do argue strongly with their attitude towards faults in the released products, and their attitude towards existing customers.  Lack of product reliability and irresponsivness towards customers may cause them at least as much damage as high prices. I had no problems with v6 which encouraged me to recomend it to others, and to get v7. What a shame my current experience with v7 is such a disappointment (see link to another thread). I wont be as quick in recomending them in the future or in buying new releases. Isnt that a pity.

"I paint that which comes from the imagination or from dreams, or from an unconscious drive. I photograph the things that I do not wish to paint, the things which already have an existence."
Man Ray, modernist painter
http://artpearl.redbubble.com/

Quote - David,

I did not call you a hater.

Please do not confuse regular complaints with someone who has a clear agenda to put down e-on and Vue every chance they have.

Chipp,
Sorry for the confusion, but I don't think I ever accused you of calling me a "hater" it was more of a rehtorical question.
I think you verbalize your position(s) quite well.
It was as much an indication of how I choose to conduct myself and prefer logical dialog.
There does come a point where it can just be a huge waste of time (like looking up all 50 or 60 posts by people with an opposite oppinion to yours).
You have your opinion, and others have theirs.

i have downloaded the PLE version of Vue 7.0 and will advise what I find. My intention is to use it as xStream from inside max.

Best regards and I oppologize for sounding like I was attacking you (when I get upset with people my responses are pretty short and usually indicate something they can go do to themselves)  :)

David

Hmm, I remember when the Vue7 prices where anounced I started a thread here regarding the fact that there is no real competion to E-on's Vue product, I was promptly smacked in the head back then.
E-on are in every businesses dream spot, there is no real competition
(No Bryce does not count its obsolete),
so they charge what they want (lets face it any business would).
I dont like it either, but unless someone steps into this area and supplies some competition then the price hikes have only begun.
Sadly money will always trump art guys, remember the price is only the (painful) symptom of the problem NO COMPETITION.
I'm just glad I'm not on the Maya/Max/XSI bus, a ticket to ride there is getting expensive since they where monopolised.. oops sorry, where aquired.

HA HA
What a joke as i pointed out e-on riip of firm, and after being taken for a ride by rip off 6 esprite, would not buy another.
But you fanatics on here slaged others and i off somit cronic, ha ha well jokes on you mugs.
Now ya crying boo hoo bugs in vue 7 as i said thier would but got screamed at, but now ya learn hard way about e-on rip off software.
I explained what they should have done and they could have stuck with 3 versions for people but no rip off time.
So dont bitch and cry, ya bloody was warned by others and i about what would happen but ya screamed abuse at us.
Well tough luck dont bitch and wine ya eyes out and must admit at least Bruno021 sticking to his guns and admire that.
You big headed fools were the brains of the universe, well ya shown ya self up.
Dont cry you fanatics, you  got what ya deserve.

 People who want the upgrade will pay, people who don't want it won't (and we all will complain about the price boo hoo).  It has got bugs but it still does what no other software can do, so I am not unhappy about owning vue.  I am happy to have this software still.
Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

After seeing some technical issues fixed with cloud rendering, I'll be buying 7.5.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

I haven't been a Vue user as long as some in here. I started out with Vue 6 Esprit, then to Pro Studio, then to Vue 6 Infinite and finally Vue 7. I like Vue very much I used to be a heavy poser user but when Vue came along in my 3D life I used it more and not just for work but for my own personal rendering. I knock on wood that I haven't experienced many of the problems as some (great I have just jinked myself) Vue, in any of the versions I've used and own, has always been a stable platform the only times I've had trouble with it is when it was my fault because it was something I needed to learn.

I understand that it feels wrong that E-ON would be raising prices in this economic time the same was said when Vue 7 came out. Like Esther people that want it will buy it and people who don't or can't afford to will not. All I wanted to point out from my personal view was I wanted to compare 7.5 to Vue 8 and see what features are there. If the two have the same features or if 8 has more I would want to wait for Vue 8 in the end it's going to cost you the same from what I've read and understood.

My Facebook Page

Well, I don't have $395 for the maintenance fee.  But I do have $295 for the 7.5 upgrade.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Vue is old dinosaur software and the render time can attest to this.  I bet e-on sells vue any day now with this economy.  I've been hearing  rumors for awhile.

These desperate throws to collect absurd amounts of money for almost no new features is astonishing IMO. 

I won't be caught holding the vue ball when they sell.

I'll keep my current working versions of poser and vue until I see some fair offers from these companies and the same goes for Microsoft.

These software companies in general are becoming out of control with these updates/upgrades/sidegrade nonesense.

surely you want e-on to sell vue since they are so terrible?  or are you just whining for the sake of it?

Rich

http://blog.richard-potter.co.uk

Quote - Vue is old dinosaur software and the render time can attest to this. 

:biggrin:

cough Excuse me, have you actually got Vue7 and run it on a decent PC, hm?
I think obviously NOT!!! :tt2:
Renders are a hell of a lot faster than in previous versions. Most of my renders are now in 1680x1050 at very high User settings, takes 2 to 6 hours ot render them at that, or an hour at Superior, usually, WITH radiosity.

Don't confuse my anger at how E-On's messed up (or how they've just not been on the ball, customer wise), with wanting to listen to someone talking out of their posterior orifice about the actual facts of Vue, lol!!***

---

**

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

Vue is hardly a Dinosaur.  That's what Bryce is for.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

An hour to render?
Woah...
I am not impressed at all.
We do animations, at an hour a frame, it would take forever to get them rendered.

Surely there is some faster setting?

yikes....

David

Quote - An hour to render?
Woah...
I am not impressed at all.
We do animations, at an hour a frame, it would take forever to get them rendered.

If you have 3600 computers you can render an hour of animation per day! :)

Quote - An hour to render?
Woah...
I am not impressed at all.
We do animations, at an hour a frame, it would take forever to get them rendered.

David,
Surely since you're in the professional business of rendering animations you already know:

1. Frame rendertimes depend on what you're rendering, what the output resolution is, what the render settings are, what the speed of the computer, how many computers you have on your network renderfarm and how soon the client needs the product. 

2. Then there are a number of paid for renderfarm services. The Ranch (www.ranchcomputing.com) is one that comes to mind. Frederic there does an excellent job of providing a very easy to use and reasonably priced online render service for Vue products. For instance, a Vue 7 animation which would take an entire week (7 days x 24 hours) on a Core 2 Extreme QX6850 (64-bit quad-core), would be rendered in around 2 hours on the RANCH.

3. And you probably know many Disney movies and commercial animations can take an hour a frame.

4. Typically, there are ways to shorten render times, as there are ways to increase them. It's all in the trade-offs one is willing to make, and one's understanding of how the program works.

Hope this helps,
C

 

Chipp,
I have my own render farm comprised of Dual Quad Core Xeons running 64 bit OS's.

It was just the shock of someone thinking an hour a frame was good (no offense, it just struck me as way over the top.

Even on our old farm that was made up of single and dual core machines, 15 minutes was an eternity.

David

No offense taken. I suspect you don't have much experience with Vue renders. I suppose I had the same response when I first heard Terragen renders can take over a week. Even so, I found out later, it really depends on the TG scene and settings. Some TG renders are done in minutes, just as is the case with Vue.

Depending on scene and settings, if you use radiosity, you can set it up to not have to calculate radiosity for each render, thus saving considerable time. Also, spectral 2 clouds take longer to render than spectral clouds which take longer to render than 'regular' clouds. Different levels of anti-aliasing as well as other settings can affect render times significantly.

Even so, if you use the five render licenses which come with Vue, and a typical frame renders in an hour, it will render in 12 minutes on your renderfarm. Not too bad.

 

Everyone should be (relatively) happy when they read eon's latest newsletter - it answers all questions brought up in this thread.

In summary - the maintenance plan is guaranteed to cover the release of v8, regardless of timing or when you first bought your v7 software, and upgrades for Infinite will be $295 whether you choose to go from 7 to 8 ($295), or from 7 to 7.5 ($295), and then 7.5 to 8 ($295). So the maintenance plan becomes and excellent deal :)

Xstream upgrades are $495

Quote - Business models can change. A company needs to do what they need to do to stay in business. Most of us understand that. Prices go up. Mine have. It is just a fact of life.

Well, that's just the problem. Prices in general have gone down, due to the recession. Houses are cheaper, cars are, fuel is, even computers are. Most software I've bought lately has been priced less then it was a year ago. I had some applications on my wishlist and I'm finally able to buy them due to price drops. Except for Vue, the price is going up and up for no apearant  reason at all.

Quote - I expect to pay a fair price for high end software. I also expect it to work. That doesnt make me a software "hater", just one with certain expectations.

I agree completely and it's the main reason I haven't upgraded to the next version of Vue. I guess for them being high-end means they can charge more, but deliver less.

I've waited with upgrading to infinite until I got a decent computer that can handle Vue comfortably. I've got that now, but due to the rise in price I lost the urge to upgrade. I'll stick to the low end versions of Vue.

If you want to sell in hard times, lower your prices. If you want to go under in hard times then raise prices. Simple economy. The way E-on is going, they'll be out of business soon and they can only blame themselves for that.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

On render times:
well if you are doing SCANLINE rendering of course it's a hell of a lot quicker!! :) Vue is purely ray tracing. ALso, note the size I render at, 1680x1050, with radiosity, at very high settings. I'm not rendering frames, I'm rendering stills, veyr big difference! :)

And as Chipp notes, render times vary enormously. Some folk are good at tweaking render settings vs the scene, it's an art itself and makes a huge difference.
Me, I don't mind it taking many hours, but less than a day, as I want a beautiful final still.

Hm, guess I'll need ot buy the maintenance plan. Rather not, as I think it's a waste of E-On's time having so many folk able to demand more help, but that's a potentially a great saving for when v8 comes out, and on my budget, damn right i think of the future :p

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models, D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!

I'm very happy to have received E-Ons' latest newsletter with the price clarifications.

I, for one, am in the process of learning VUE and the xStream enviroment and how it all works together.  For me, the upgrade price to xStream 8 ($495) is fair, as I do not need the expedited maintenance plans.

If E-On maintains this separation between the commercial and hobyist uses of VUE & xStream, I can live with that.   When I'm ready to go commercial, I can step up to the maintenance plans when ready.

To E-On ... "Thanks for the clarification".  It would have been easier on all the users' "blood pressure" had this clarification been included in the original notice.  LOL  Would have saved a lot of electrons in the forums.  (Well - they are at recyclable according to Vladimir.  I can't say that about "my" time on this topic though...)

Yep but still the upgrade from 6 to 7 is way to much, like

Quote - I suspect you don't have much experience with Vue renders.

 
No I don't. The only Vue experience I have is with Ozone, and the attempts I have made to try Vue 5 and 6.

Quote - Depending on scene and settings, if you use radiosity, you can set it up to not have to calculate radiosity for each render, thus saving considerable time. Also, spectral 2 clouds take longer to render than spectral clouds which take longer to render than 'regular' clouds. Different levels of anti-aliasing as well as other settings can affect render times significantly.

That makes sense.

Quote - Even so, if you use the five render licenses which come with Vue, and a typical frame renders in an hour, it will render in 12 minutes on your renderfarm. Not too bad.

Here we'll just have to disagree. Even rendering with very high settings in Max, a very long frame is 5 minutes (per frame) on the Dual Quads

I had read that using Mental Ray and Vue xStream was pretty good as far as render times, but the battle using xStream just wasn't worth it (I'll spare you all the re-hashed items).

My plan at this point is to wait for someone that already owns Vue and uses xStream, to install 7.5 and see if it is any better. Right now all I have is negative feed back (closer to RUN AWAY) from current users.

btw it is a bit of a diversionary tactic to compare to other poor performing software and claim "at least we aren't as bad as them".
If the feedback from 7.4 and 7.5 users (using xStream) is positive, I will likely buy Vue.
If it is not, then I highly doubt I will buy it.

David

Quote - btw it is a bit of a diversionary tactic to compare to other poor performing software and claim "at least we aren't as bad as them".

 

I suppose you're referring to the TG comparison. It was not meant as diversionary, but to point out the problem with your perceptions, and how I had the same problem, but realized how silly I was after learning more about the TG program.

Just wondering, can your Max program really render multiple trillion polygon scenes, with radiosity, full spectral skys, infinite procedural terrains with millions of unique plants and combined wind effects, in 5 minutes? If so, then I have no idea why you would be in this forum. If not, then you're not comparing apples to apples.

 

Chipp has a point here, David. Vue can render thousands of unique trees blowing in the breeze, physically accurate skies and clouds (which shape and direction animate too), with advanced lighting models. I'm not too sure  Max/ MR  can do it ( at least I know  C4D can't).
If you are considering buying Vue, my guess is it is for those unique features, otherwise, you'd simply throw in a few modelled trees and an MR sky, but the resulting environment wouldn't be as rich as Vue's.
So a frame like this won't render in 5mn, this is for sure. But the question is: will the final animation win you the client without the Vue environment in such a competitive market?
Maybe it is worth spending twice the rendering time for the project?

As a hobbyist, I feel as though I am being forced to step down to a lower version of the software, or ultimately just give it up altogether. I have 6 Infinite now, but have already had to pass on upgrading to 7 Infinite due to job loss. The next upgrade, if I skip 7 Infinite, will be even pricier (based on what happened to people using 5 Infinite who had skipped upgrading to 6 Infinite but wanted to go to 7 Infinite when it came out), so I guess I am just going to have to give up. I just upgraded my Adobe CS2 Photoshop to CS4 for a reasonable upgrade price. I don't know why e-on can't be the same. Reasonable. It does seem that e-on are doing their best to lose hobbyist business. :(

I eagerly read all the making-of posts/articles I can find.

For real movie work, 1+ hour per frame is absolutely normal. Hollywood frame sizes are much larger than the ones we are accustomed but they usually work with Renderman compliant engines, which are scanline+some raytracing when needed, so they are faster than a raytracing+radiosity engine like Vue. As comparison, in the Maxwell/VRay etc. world, a 24 hour render for one image is normal.

The message is that Vue render times are in line with what is currently feasible so, if you want to create professional animations you can either

1. rent a renderfarm or...
2. build your own renderfarm or...
3. forget about doing animations .

W.r.t. to E-On being bought, the only potential customer is Autodesk. Should this happen, we all would fondly remember the good ol' times in which a price hike was "just" a few hunderd dollars...

Bye!!!

GIMP 2.7.4, Inkscape 0.48, Genetica 3.6 Basic, FilterForge 3 Professional, Blender 2.61, SketchUp 8, PoserPro 2012, Vue 10 Infinite, World Machine 2.3, GeoControl 2

Cool.  I can wait for version 8 then for $295.  Maybe the trend will be maintenance customers get ".5" updates while everyone else have to wait.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Chipp,
[quoteJust wondering, can your Max program really render multiple trillion polygon scenes, with radiosity, full spectral skys, infinite procedural terrains with millions of unique plants and combined wind effects, in 5 minutes? If so, then I have no idea why you would be in this forum. If not, then you're not comparing apples to apples.

Nice....

I am here to learn about Vue and xStream from people that use it already.
I use Max for it's stability and performance. It works, day in, day out. (Using max 2009 now, Max 2010 is on the shelf waiting for SP1 to be released). Max 2008 was garbage. Crashed all the time. Max 9 was great. I own C4d but dont use it.

**Software is a tool, not a religion.
**
Max cannot do what you have described which is another reason why I am here.
If it means that to get what you have described, I have to endure instability or long render times then Vue is not for me. My industry and clients won't tollerate it. You can make all the excuses you want for a software (rhetorical btw). I just want relaibility, stability and relatively good speed.
Max is not the end all, be all product. Only a fool would make such a claim. It does most of what I need it to do, has a tremendous amount of plugins available for it and has boosted my company's abilities and avenues.
My hope is (and I really hope it is) would be that xStream can be another major boost.

Too bad any comment less than "singing the praises of Vue"  is considered full of vile and contempt. They really arent intended as jabs

If I were in your position I would probably defend the company I sell add ons for too.
That is not a slam in any way shape or form. I am saying I would do it too.
Hopefully it wouldnt be with the same tenacity, but then I have not walked in your shoes.

Relax a little, I am not here to offend you..

David

David,

I just got a note that Xfrog vegetation pluggins is a free download for Max.
http://www.renderosity.com/news.php?viewStory=14563&AID=408

Maybe that is what you are looking for.

One addtitional comment to EVERYONE:
Posting in these forums is like text messaging.  Few words mean a lot and can be miss interpreted because the way they are written is like speaking but without hearing the other voice.  Very easily missunderstood.

Just my observation - not a judgement on anyone please.  I get the feeling that some people have been painted with a tar brush (or are in the process) without a bit of understanding.   Alex Coppo just came out with something NICE to say about VUE.  Again... I'm not taking sides here... LOL

Thanks for the link.
We are still using 2009 and that plugin is for max 2010.

I really try hard to wait for the first service pack for max versions or atleast a hotfix.
Bugs annoy me (although that may be obvious by now).

As far as words typed and their impact...
Cant we all just get along?

Like I said, software is a tool, not a religion.

David

David,

I do not comprehend why you want to buy xStream right off the bat.  Yeah - it is/can be buggy for the first few service packs.  In your workflow, just test & re-test the patched up demo until you feel you can effectively use it in production.  Then buy it.  Seems E-On patch the demo with a little time lag compared to the production version.

I wish I was in your shoes.  You can pick your entry point.  I've been upgrading since VUE4 and do not want to loose my foot in the door.  To spend $1500 without income to write it off against is a "pain" I do not want to endure.  It's cheaper for me to upgrade the full point versions.

There are a few tutorials around that show how to use xStream with Max.  Check out this thread:
http://www.geekatplay.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=308

...Cheers

Quote - David,

I do not comprehend why you want to buy xStream right off the bat.

I am not sure I understand your comment.
If I buy xStreme it will be for the features and power.

Thanks,
David

What I am trying to say is that if I were you, I would play the demo to death to make sure that it did what I wanted it for before I purchased it.  The demo is literaly a "gift" from E-On for you to test the hell out of the program to make sure that it works for you.

By using the demo, you get the full version of xStream to test and make work with your workflow.  If it works for what you want - great - buy it.  If there are issues, see if you can get them solved/resolved to get your workflow to production stage.  Then, when you feel it is ready for production - only then - purchase it.

As far as I know, the only limitation of the demo version of xStream is the limited size of renders and a water mark.  Which should be fine for testing.

Does that clear up my comment?

BTW - I hope that others "pave the path for me".  Less pain I have to endure the better.  :D
(For the life of me I can't figure out how to put "smileys" into my post.  Must be a simple thing - otherwise I'd understand it.)

Ah I it now.
I have downloaded the demo but have not installed it.

My intentions for buying it would be to buy the premium service package so they HAVE to help me...

You are right in your point about wringing out the demo..

As soon as I get some spare time..
Working on a plane crash right now...

David

Quote - Too bad any comment less than "singing the praises of Vue" is considered full of vile and contempt.

David,

Perhaps you need to reread my comments. They were made to inform you, not to insult you.

The things I mention, I would hope are helpful. As Alex pointed out, it's not uncommon to have one hour rendertimes per frame in this business. Max can't do all the things Vue can and vice versa. You certainly know renders can take from 1 minute to days depending on complexity, hardware, render settings etc.. The goal is to find the correct mixture.

I don't understand the disconnect. When you say one hour renders won't work for you, I'm just pointing out there are alternatives to one hour renders.

Frankly, the best alternative is what surveyman recommends, just download the free version of the PLE and take it for a spin.

Even if you do, chances are you may need some hand holding, as the learning curve can be a bit steep. You might want to check for some tutorials around for xStream/Max. A quick Google search located one at:
http://www.imakeu.com/Tutorials/Vue/

Another good idea would be to check in over at the e-on forums as there you may find those more knowledgable regarding xStream and Max.

Good luck,
Chipp

 

Quote - Cool.  I can wait for version 8 then for $295.  Maybe the trend will be maintenance customers get ".5" updates while everyone else have to wait.

Shawn,

While I have no such knowledge, I suspect you are correct in your observation.

 

Quote - As a hobbyist, I feel as though I am being forced to step down to a lower version of the software, or ultimately just give it up altogether. I have 6 Infinite now, but have already had to pass on upgrading to 7 Infinite due to job loss. The next upgrade, if I skip 7 Infinite, will be even pricier (based on what happened to people using 5 Infinite who had skipped upgrading to 6 Infinite but wanted to go to 7 Infinite when it came out), so I guess I am just going to have to give up. I just upgraded my Adobe CS2 Photoshop to CS4 for a reasonable upgrade price. I don't know why e-on can't be the same. Reasonable. It does seem that e-on are doing their best to lose hobbyist business. :(

I investigated this and Adobe have a very good upgrade practice. At the moment I have CS3 and will skip an upgrade and still be able to upgrade for the same price. It is a shame E-on don't follow suit. When I asked E-on about an upgrade from V5I to V7I the price was the same as the V5I -> V6I -> V7I route.

I feel much happier since receiving the latest newsletter. I hope this means that the people at E-on are finally listening to their customers.

Quote - The things I mention, I would hope are helpful. As Alex pointed out, it's not uncommon to have one hour rendertimes per frame in this business. Max can't do all the things Vue can and vice versa. You certainly know renders can take from 1 minute to days depending on complexity, hardware, render settings etc.. The goal is to find the correct mixture.

Good enough for me, no offense taken here (and we both agree we don't mean to offend).
We can't be a member of the vue forums becasue we dont own any of their software.

That was a bit of a sore spot with me in testing the Ozone 4.0 Beta, there was not a good vehicle to provide feedback. "Good" being relative to what I was used too, meaning access to a forum etc.

It is my plan to test out the PLE as soon as I get some free time....
David

Quote - > Quote - Cool.  I can wait for version 8 then for $295.  Maybe the trend will be maintenance customers get ".5" updates while everyone else have to wait.

Shawn,

While I have no such knowledge, I suspect you are correct in your observation.

Vue sent out an email today clarifying the 7 > 7.5 > 8 price path for subscribers and non-subscribers.  It won't be a gamble whichever path you choose to version 8.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Quote - I investigated this and Adobe have a very good upgrade practice. At the moment I have CS3 and will skip an upgrade and still be able to upgrade for the same price. It is a shame E-on don't follow suit. When I asked E-on about an upgrade from V5I to V7I the price was the same as the V5I -> V6I -> V7I route.

Which is one of the reasons I REALLY like Newtek and upgrading Lightwave. Even with the subscription program that they've implemented, you can STILL skip versions and upgrade at the same price. Yes, it really is too bad that companies like E-on are too greedy for their own good. xStream6 was my last E-on upgrade. Their tremendous price increases and upgrade policies have just made it way too expensive for our small production house to keep up. We don't use it as a hobby, but we are too small to continue upgrading at these ridiculous prices. I wonder what xStream8 will cost? $1995? xStream9....  $2295?...    etc. I suppose if you skip enough versions they'll force you to pay MORE than a new user since you should have been paying for ALL upgrades?  ;)

Chief Architect went to subscriptions for upgrades.  I just needed one version of the program though as it's just a hobby for me.  One program I like is TurboCAD which hasn't gone to subscription and still offers very cheap upgrades.  DAZ gives their old versions of Carrara Pro away.  So upgrades are free if you wait for the next version to be given away.

I like how ZBrush has free upgrades through various versions. I only paid for ZBrush once when it was version 1.55 and upgrading to version 4 will be free still.  Silo has a nice free price for any version 2.x releases.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

...

I see many info about new version VUE named 7.5 and even 8.0 which have new functions. :woot:
What for new version ?

My very old version VUE Infinite named 7 (with newest updates !!!) still don't worked properly with Poser files. :cursing:

VUE 7 don't accept many deformers in imported files from Poser 7 or even Pro.
Deformers don't worked properly !

In new version 7.5 these deformers will be worked properly ???

I have doubts !  :tt2:

VUE 7 don't worked properly even...without Poser files. :lol:

New version will be ' crash-proof ' ???  I have doubts ! :tt2:

...but for all this faults **I still LOVE this soft !!! ** :tt1:

...