I'm thinking that could be the explanation for the style of the new characters.

if they're designed for games, manga/anime etc.

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its easier to do stylized characters.

it takes a lot of time for realism and it still doesnt look realism enough. antonia looks like a very realistic poser figure.

i dream of a TY3.

She's soo cute and innocent looking.

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Take the "8" out of your question - practically all Poser characters have glaring anatomy problems in some form or other. None of the DAZ figures is especially realistic e.g.

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No, I don't think so. I think when the bugs with IDL are ironed out it will be a whole lot easier. Tone mapping will also help the non-Pro users to get more realistic renders without the complexity of material-based gamma correction.

I'm not sure of the rationale behind the new Poser figures. I'm pretty sure that SM's intention was not to challenge the position of DAZ V4/M4, not with these figures. Time will tell what can be made of them by those who aim for realism.

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

Maybe it's just me, but I'm finding the new figures to be easier to work with. Of course, I'm not looking for realism in my art.

Quote - i dream of a TY3.

She's soo cute and innocent looking.

Unfortunately, any future development will be done by e frontier japan, we do not own the rights to this figure at Smith Micro. They may not know there is a demand for future work on her, I strongly encourage you to consider contacting them.

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Quote - i dream of a TY3. She's soo cute and innocent looking.

<---------- Innocent?

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

Quote - Take the "8" out of your question - practically all Poser characters have glaring anatomy problems in some form or other. None of the DAZ figures is especially realistic e.g.

The very few successful photorealistic images I've see from Poser were usually head and shoulder shots. I cant think of any that were full body for the very reason you state. The DAZ figures seem to be built along the lines of fashion illustration proportions, and the CP figures, while better proportionally, are too stylized.

Ironically, the very best photorealistic image I ever saw used Posette. I dont remember who did it (we're talking like six years ago), but it was pretty amazing. Obviously, a lot of work went into it to get it to look that real.

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Don't sweat it; it's not like anybody is actually gonna use the Poser 8 figures anyway.

It's not just proportions, it's a lot of aspects of anatomy. For the new Poser 8 figures e.g., the proportions are pretty OK, but the feet are just plain weird, the navel is an almost perfectly circular dent, the torso is too narrow etc. etc. I can't think of any Poser figure on the market that has convincing anatomy at the shoulder and armpit. And then there's the boobs on the females, practically always wonky.

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What's a realistic boob look like? Even on real women, you can't always say what's real and what's faked.

Of course, as long as they're attached to a REAL woman (Read BORN FEMALE), I'm pretty happy.

:biggrin:

Quote - I'm thinking that could be the explanation for the style of the new characters.

if they're designed for games, manga/anime etc.

It's obvious these characters aren't realistic at all. Neither are they really manga or gaming characters.

The problem is this. SM hired someone to do the new models. This person has a deadline. Because of that, he or she is working day and night. This person has no time to go out and socialize, so he/she has no clue what real humans look like. No time to look in the mirror either. This person has no time to read/watch anime/manga, so the model doesn't look like those either. No time to play games at all, so the model doesn't look like a gaming model at all.

So.... all that this person came up with where Alyson and Ryan, obviously somewhere based on the previous Poser included models. A mix between Dork, Don, James and Simon, but mixing the worst features they had to offer and thus Ryan was born. Same goes for Posette, Judy, Jessi and Sidney.... the modeler took their worst and turned it into Alyson.

I'm not sure where all the people that work for SM come from, but they sure have a weird taste. It sad to see that they can't come up with anything better, after all these years. One would think they've learned by now, but no, they haven't. They still manage to release models most people will never use. Well, at least they're consistent..... releasing models that most Poser user do not care for or will never use.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

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Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote -
I'm not sure where all the people that work for SM come from, but they sure have a weird taste. It sad to see that they can't come up with anything better, after all these years. One would think they've learned by now, but no, they haven't. They still manage to release models most people will never use. Well, at least they're consistent..... releasing models that most Poser user do not care for or will never use.

I know I'm not the trend setter, but I stay away from Daz figures. I don't like them. I pretty much limit to using Poser 6 and 7 figures, along with Miki and Terai Yuki. And Apollo once in a while.

I consider the poser 8 figures to be a big improvement. Granted, their default faces don't look elvish or supermodel-ish, but there are quite some morphs included to tweak them out, without having to purchase anything else.

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This thread is pretty funny

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

The people at SM (real people, with real lives nothing to do with Poser, and real husbands and wives and children) are not fools or sociopaths, they know what they're doing.

It really depends what the reasoning was behind these figures. I don't know that, do you?
No, you don't..

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

I can appreciate the reaction you guys have, no problem with what you're saying.

But these models are clearly not useless, although Alyson is really just no comparison to the free Antonia that odf is working on, for example.

But I just want to say three things.

First - Alyson has the potential to be shaped quite differently with a bit of custom morphing. I forget who, but one poster already showed proper free-hanging breasts on her. Actually her breast shape is quite correct for somebody wearing a bra. I suppose there should have been a morph to select "hanging free" versus "sports bra", but this is easily remedied. For the artist interested in clothed people (unusual I know) her body is no impediment, really. Have a look here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1929944

Second - while I appreciate that a figure creates strong reactions, perhaps being a little less hard on the guy who made it is in order. I don't know him, but I know he's a hard-working SM employee (not a contractor) and he's devastated by this community's vituperation. Really, if he was standing before you, would you really find it necessary to bring him down? Yesterday, somebody called me a genius dork, which is fine because it's actually sort of a compliment and I have a pretty thick skin.

But Alyson's createor was given a ridiculous deadline. The new joint system was not squared away soon enough, so he had to crank out the rig in like zero time. Compared to od'fs 4-year effort on Antonia, the difference in quality is actually understandable. Plus, odf had the benefit of months of feedback from hundreds of us telling him the ear is wrong, the navel is wrong, the wrist looks stupid. The guy making Alyson had to work in secret. Very few of us do an awesome job solo. Collaboration always produces a better outcome.

Finally, who cares? Poser 8 is worth the upgrade price even if it came without any new content. And there's a lot of silly nearly useless content in Poser 8, like the gigantic crane. Why is that a core piece of equipment that should be in everybody's content library, LOL? Let's make fun of that decision and give this guy a break.

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Quote - I'm not sure where all the people that work for SM come from, but they sure have a weird taste. It sad to see that they can't come up with anything better, after all these years. One would think they've learned by now, but no, they haven't. They still manage to release models most people will never use. Well, at least they're consistent..... releasing models that most Poser user do not care for or will never use.

So where is your human mesh ? If it's that easy, you should be able to knock one out without any problems. If you don't have a modeller, Blender is free or you could use Wings (as I believe odf does.)

If you don't have one then quit bitching at the poor SOB who actually had to make these meshes, I've been making models for a while now and I'm damn sure I can't model a human figure. If they offend you that much then don't use the bl**dy things, nobody has a gun at your head saying you have to use them.

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Well, actually, I DO care,BB. I mean sure, I'm willing to cut the guy some slack, and even more willing to hold SM responsible for making it's people work without feedback. May of the bugs in this first release could have already been squashed just by having a few alpha and beta testers before the final release.

At least they seem to e on the right track by having some beta testers for Poser Pro 2010.

I was the one with the free hanging and smaller breasts. And here is the pic again. And i did send it to SM as an example. And this pic is not even rendered just a scrrengrab of the preview window. So, YES, I like the new models. like all poser models, you have to play a litte with them;-) ;-) ;-)

i morphed the collars, chest, and abdomen, made a full body morph out of them, and now I can choose.
No morph, for clothed.
Half morph for a loose bikini.
And 1.000 for , well, as you see.

or anything in between. ;-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

How about some morphs to move her breasts around?. Like Up, Down in, out, etc.

Quote - Well, actually, I DO care,BB. I mean sure, I'm willing to cut the guy some slack, and even more willing to hold SM responsible for making it's people work without feedback. May of the bugs in this first release could have already been squashed just by having a few alpha and beta testers before the final release.

At least they seem to e on the right track by having some beta testers for Poser Pro 2010.

Wait, I may be misinterpreting this. It sounds like you think there were less than a few testers before the release. Is that what you think? I don't want to argue the point if that's not what you think. I have a response about how many testers there were and how many bugs you never saw, but I just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.

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Well, for those that did not find them, they are included.
But!!!!
Select; body parts: and you will find Left Collar and Right Collar but also lBreast and rBreast

They have separate x, y, z, scales and also; up-down, or side-side

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I said it in another thread, but I'll say it again. Excellent work, vilters.

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(HANA - 3rd Gen UNIMESH/RR-UNIMESH hybrid. 47.000 polys. Re-sculpted in ZBrush 3 via DAZ-Studio. Re-Rigged in Poser PRO. No postwork.)

It's a shame.
We have affordable laser scanners these days and we have extremely capeable sculpting programs like ZBrush.

And still if you want a truly realistic and anatomically believeable human figure, you have to do all the work yourself.

And for the record, I dislike V4 and M4 (albeit for different reasons) as much as I dislike the new P8 figures.

Still no postwork, just good rigging.

her left wrist on the top render looks a bit odd, it looks slightly thick where it joins the hand. And she could do with a good meal!

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Quote - i dream of a TY3.

She's soo cute and innocent looking.

A TY3 has my vote, Misty! I'm a TY2 fan, myself. :> She's one of my most-used characters :D

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Quote - > Quote - Well, actually, I DO care,BB. I mean sure, I'm willing to cut the guy some slack, and even more willing to hold SM responsible for making it's people work without feedback. May of the bugs in this first release could have already been squashed just by having a few alpha and beta testers before the final release.

At least they seem to e on the right track by having some beta testers for Poser Pro 2010.

Wait, I may be misinterpreting this. It sounds like you think there were less than a few testers before the release. Is that what you think? I don't want to argue the point if that's not what you think. I have a response about how many testers there were and how many bugs you never saw, but I just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.

Really? First thing I did when I got P8 was to set out trying to change Alyson's face. SM's tech support says the bug I found wasn't in the figure but in the faceroom data.

Besides, read what you said. You made it sound like the people working on P8 ( well, at least the guy doing Alyson) was secured at Area 51.

Quote - Plus, odf had the benefit of months of feedback from hundreds of us telling him the ear is wrong, the navel is wrong, the wrist looks stupid. The guy making Alyson had to work in secret. Very few of us do an awesome job solo. Collaboration always produces a better outcome.

Huh? You didn't answer my question. I'm not trying to be combative - just the opposite. I interpreted your post to mean you thought there were less than a few beta testers. Literally a few, as in 3 to 4.

I don't want to waste your time trying to convince you otherwise if that isn't your belief. That's all. :-)

If you already believe that there were dozens of testers and hundreds of bugs were fixed that you never saw, then I don't need to write about that, and I can assume you were just using the phrase to emphasize your point that there was insufficient testing. In which case, we would discuss along different lines.

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Dozens? No, but more than 3 or 4. Maybe 10 or 15? 20? :biggrin:

So you think there were more than a few? Even though you said that if only they'd gotten a few testers, we'd not be seeing these bugs?

I'm just trying to figure out what angle to take.

You now say you think there were maybe around 20?

How many should there have been?

Next question: How many testers does it take to find all the bugs?

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Why don't you just stop beating around the bush and go with the interpretation you think is right? You probably are.

And I don't pretend to think I know everything. So I don't mind being corrected if it's called for.

Well I didn't bring this up, so don't get touchy. :)

We were talking about Alyson, when you suddenly said that many of these bugs we're seeing would have been squashed if only there had been a few testers.

I see so much arm-chair quarterbacking, combined with completely invalid assumptions, that these things kind of ring-a-ling in front of me.

So here are the facts as I understand them.

At least 45 people were beta testers, because that is how many people I counted reported bugs during testing to the bug tracking system.

That is a lower bound - the actual number is higher, because in any large group of testers, some never report any bugs, or the only bugs they have to report on are ones others found already. Some just don't bother to log in and write anything.

Based on my 25 years experience doing software product development, I'd say that typically half the beta testers never say anything, even if they find something. So the actual number is probably around 90 people.

Yes, I'd say when i used the word dozens, and you jumped down my throat, that was a bit uncalled for. Even if we assume nobody was silent, 45 is dozens, and certainly more than a few.

Now the question is how many bugs can 45 people find?

Again, based on my experience, it is a near certainty they cannot find them all. In fact, in all the beta tests I've been involved in, which is also in the dozens, none have ever found more than about 70% of the bugs. Typically 25% to 40% of all the bugs found during the life of a product are found after its release. This is normal for software products. This is why there are service releases. Anybody who doesn't believe this is living in a fantasy land.

Typically, commercial software has on average 20 to 30 bugs for every 1000 lines of code. I don't know the total number of lines written for Poser 8, but it is easily in excess of 30000 lines, probably more than that.

Based on that assumption, the number of bugs found before release by those 45 testers is well below software industry averages, and the number found since then is even lower. Despite that, I expect that somewhere around 100 more bugs will be found AFTER TODAY.

If you think that's unacceptable and your opinion can change the industry, you should probably start a software company. You'll make billions.

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It's darn hard to make billions on unreleased software. :)

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You can have as many testers as you want because us users will always find the bugs they missed & complain about them loudly. It's the way of the world. ;)

Anyway my real reason for posting is to say although I don't particularly like the look of the new figures they are still a darn sight better than what I personally could come up with in the same amount of time as the creator of them had.

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I don't think I'm the one being touchy. Hey, look, I'm not privy to what you know about P8's development. So when you say things like Alyson's creator had to work in secret and how you create something better if you have a few more collaborators, then yeah, I kind of thought that SM only had a few people bug testing Poser.

For the record, no, I don't think twenty people are enough to bug test software decently. But I don't think you need hundreds either. BTW, I didn't jump down your throat.

Do I have to change the industry to start my own software company? "Cause , you know, I got this whole world peace and curing cancer thing going on right now...

:biggrin:

Aaah, EC, I just began to understand what two things you've connected.

The "development" of Alyson happened before testing began, just as the development of the application happened before testing began. By definition, the testers don't see a figure until it is nearly a finished product, just as with the software. The testers can influence some minor things, but they are generating so much information about crucial things that minor things do not get addressed.

In the case of Alyson, I meant that the only people seeing Alyson at a time when it would be reasonable to change her shape were SM employees, not Beta testers.

You used the word "Beta" tester, and I (perhaps wrongfully) assume that when people use that term, they know why they're using it, what it means. In the software industry, testing has many forms and happens throughout the development cycle. But Beta testing specifically involves actual customers and happens as the very last step before product release. Traditionally, though not in practice, the software is termed "frozen" during Beta. No new features are developed, only problems found by the testers can be solved. This is considered best practice. Beta cannot begin until development is largely finished.

By the time Beta test rolled around, the only things being fixed on Alyson were things like missing bend limits, poke through, missing morphs on clothing, etc. No feedback at that point was going to get the lips or chin or collarbone changed.

Furthermore, the testers were far more concerned with testing the software. Think about it - users can morph Alyson themselves, but they can't change the software if something is wrong or unappealing.

And sometimes, the fixers would accidentally break something else. I suspect the Face Room data for Alyson was an example. While tweaking some parameter, perhaps somebody accidentally changed another one.

That's why there is a thing called a regression test. In a regression test, you verify that while fixing bugs, you did not accidentally introduce new ones. You do this by testing everything you've tested before and you thought it worked right.

Regression testing is impossible with Poser content. There's no way to automate it, so everybody would have to do everything they ever did over again.

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Thanks BB. As I said, I don't pretend to think I know everything. But I could probably win $750 on the Cash Cab. :biggrin:

Quote - Typically, commercial software has on average 20 to 30 bugs for every 1000 lines of code. I don't know the total number of lines written for Poser 8, but it is easily in excess of 30000 lines, probably more than that.

A bug every 33-50 lines, in its release state? Really that bad?

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Quote - > Quote - Typically, commercial software has on average 20 to 30 bugs for every 1000 lines of code. I don't know the total number of lines written for Poser 8, but it is easily in excess of 30000 lines, probably more than that.

A bug every 33-50 lines, in its release state? Really that bad?

No, before Beta testing begins, not in release state. The release rate is 1 in 200.

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Quote - Thanks BB. As I said, I don't pretend to think I know everything. But I could probably win $750 on the Cash Cab. :biggrin:

I forgot to add, that if we remove the words Alpha and Beta from your remark, then I totally agree!!

It is a mistake for them to develop their main figures without constant, immediate, and most important early feedback. Aesthetic feedback, especially, cannot be fixed instantly and unambiguously like software.

If some tester says "Ctrl-R isn't starting a render like it should", then a developer fixes it, and the developer knows it is right, because either he or someone in QA does a functional test to verify it. This is unambiguous and does not require much further feedback from the customer/tester.

If someone says "chin too big", then the change to make it smaller may be not far enough, or too far,. Many iterations have to happen. There's no certainty, so it can take a long time. There is also variation of opinion, while we can all agree easily on whether Ctrl-R is rendering or not.

So real people, not SM employees (joking) should be giving constant, early feedback to the content creators, and especially to the main figure creator.

By the way, these all have special meaning in software development testing parlance. If you say one of these, followed by the word "testing", such as "unit testing", to a software developer, then you're conveying a whole lot of meaning and constraints to the listener, that perhaps you're not aware of. Some you can guess, but others not.

unit
functional
integration
system
performance
stability
usability
security
negative
white box
grey box
black box
coverage
API
acceptance
alpha
beta

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Actually, I think Jessi 6 makes some photo-realistic renders.

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Sleeping Cutey!

edited by a mod for width and link to larger image

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I'm missing something. That's not Jessi 6.... or are you just offering it as another example of realism? Terai Yuki isn't strictly "a Poser figure" to begin with, although she is retailed by CP.

Anyway, as nice as she is, I don't think TY's aim is realism, at least not out of the box.

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To me, in this image, it looks like she could get up and start breathing.

A trick of the lighting, perhaps.

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I think it's that TY is very expressive. (And yeah, that lighting in this image is outstanding.)

But her look is not a realistic look. It's a quite a long way in the direction of manga or anime (tho I'm sure a real manga person would tell me that manga isn't anime, and vice versa). There's a fair amount of stylization/exaggeration - most noticeably with the eyes, but also with the overall head/facial shape.

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Quote - A trick of the lighting, perhaps.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head... it is not the figures.... ONLY. It is a combination of factors. You can have the best rigged figure, the best Photoreal Texture, with the best possible displacement map or normal map in the best available software with all the best tools and features in the best possible Render Engine and I am sure that the output would have issues for those users that have not learned how to use all the tools available.

Someone said that they had seen Poser 4 female figure that was pretty realistic. I am not sure who may have done that image, but I suspect they could also do the same with most any of the newer figures. I remember a person here at Rendo that use to do Portraits of Photoreal human faces using Poser. It was Poser and the Figures used that allowed him to do those images, but he did those images in Poser with the Figures avaiable.

I also want to say a little something on the comments about the Figure itself. Everyone is right, but they also are wrong. I have seen these discussions about elbows in the wrong place, wrists too thick, (and though I like the work Vilters did) breasts too high.

For my evidence, I recommend everyone that thinks they know what a real woman looks like and where a real breast should fall to check out the SiteMap link at Reference Photos.

http://www.3d.sk/index.php

Warning: Nude Image Reference (I apologize beforehand if this violates the TOS and also am including a search Reference)

Human Photo Reference for 3D Artist

Set the search of the SiteMap to Sets, Images only and in Gender set to Woman, in Poses set to Modeling Reference and in Clothes Type set to Nude. You will see a similar point of view of the female form in every image. Some with breasts starting at the armpit, some higher, some lower. You will see round navels, oval navels, flat navels, innies, outies, etc... You will see elbows that are at the navel, above the navel, at the bottom of the rib cage and others between the hip and the bottom of the rib cage. You will see all body types and all breast sizes and shapes. The only thing all these will have in common is they are women. The Human Form in all its glory, sort of like snowflakes, no two alike.

None of these woman are deformed, they are just woman, each unique, different from the next and all are normal and all are beautiful, just as every human is unique, normal and beautiful.

ratscloset
aka John

Yabbut.

This is one place where the Poser females do not have variety. G2 Sydney et al and Alyson not only have the same general positioning but the same general shape. It's almost like someone over there thinks this is average. I've used the 3d.sk references, and I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that while the breast placement is within the realm of the real, it's not average at all.

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No one claimed Alyson was your average woman (if her breasts are higher, does that mean she is above average!)

There was an interesting article about reports from one of the medical journals about average shape size and proportions. In this article, the author looked at the data, instead of the results. Her conclusion was there is no average, because the studies did not look at whole females, but data from whole females, so the average breast size had nothing to do with the average height, waist, hip, weight, etc... In many cases when locating the data for a woman that was the dead center in the average group for Breast Size, she was not in the average group for weight or height based on the data.

I was only reading an small segment of her article, but to me it seemed like the average woman based on these reports was sort of a Frankenstiens monster.. made up of bits and pieces from many different woman.

And we wonder why young people today have such a unrealistic body view and expectations.

ratscloset
aka John

That's a really interesting point.

Consider the variations in shape of stone mulch chips.

Were we to create mesh models from a few thousand of these, and then average them, we'd probably end up with a sphere, which looks absolutely nothing like any one of the stones.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote -
And we wonder why young people today have such a unrealistic body view and expectations.

That's called America's Next Top Model. Don't watch it myself cause frankly, I think they're all too skinny and none of them are that attractive to me.

There are indeed "statistical averages", otherwise we all would have to wear custom tailored clothes.

But yes, the "blank canvas" concept we see promoted in Poserdom simply does not work if you want true realism.
You can't simply mix and match morphs to "dial a human" and expect realistic results.
There are rules, and some of them are very subtle.
Even the best real world artists work with live models, and we expect hobbyists to turn a stylized Barbie doll into a real human with just a few dial spins ?

So the best way to achive a convincing result is to slavishly copy an actual human without "adding" or "sanitizing" things here and there.
Forget about "artistic vision" and simply concentrate on the craft.
Just copy the shape you see, that's all.
And don't eyeball, Use a photo reference and stick to it.
Yes, it's boring, but it's the only way to get a solid foundation.

Even if the shape chosen is not everybody's dream woman, most people will at least subconsciously notice the "realness" over a figure that was build by a committee.

This was done for MIKI, and that's why she is such a convincing figure.
Because every little detail is "right".
(Except for the fact that she is quite tall (!) for a japanese woman because her body was sculpted after 5'5" (1,65m) czech model Aneta Keys.Lol.)

She failed for other reasons, but the sculpting and her ecpression morphs blew everything out of the water DAZ had ever produced. (And still does)

Quote - There are indeed "statistical averages", otherwise we all would have to wear custom tailored clothes.

Not really, clothes do not conform to the body, or the material is designed to be loose fitting or stretches (or a combination of both)

Ask any woman about getting a bra to actually fit right even with all the adjustable bands, straps, cups, etc... and most will tell you that is like finding a perfect man... only in dreams and fairytales!

Quote -
So the best way to achive a convincing result is to slavishly copy an actual human without "adding" or "sanitizing" things here and there.

Personally, I would like to see this, if only at as a test. This also would be the best way to determine the best way to design a mesh for rigging, best way to texture, etc... It could lead to improvement of all figure designing and development.

ratscloset
aka John

I don't think Ryan and Alyson are bad figures - they're just not as developed as the poser community would have wanted - deadlines or not. Frankly, I think it would have been better to tweak and update some of the previous figures, i.e. Jessi and James G3, rather than to make new figures from scratch.

But it's not just the figures. There's not a lot of dynamic clothing or hair included to go along with these Ryan and Alyson. The included textures are not photorealistic. So while it's possible for very good artists to make these figures look good, doesn't that defeat the point of Poser in making quality 3D accessible to everyone?

Quote - No one claimed Alyson was your average woman (if her breasts are higher, does that mean she is above average!)

My point is that Poser has developed a whole string of characters that are "unaverage" in the same way. If you're going for variety, as is ostensibly the case, then have variety, not something unusual in life reproduced figure after figure.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Well darn, I feel bad that the Alyson/Ryan developer is so hard hit by the reaction to these figures in the forums. Some one pointed out in another thread that the people who complain on the forums make up a very small percentage of the actual customer base. I suppose that is scant consolation seeing that people criticize much more voluminously than they praise. I don’t recall any "human" figure designed specifically for Poser that wasn’t received with far more fault finding than compliments, even the free ones. In this, the designer of the Alyson and Ryan figures stands in renowned company.

Poser isn't a "paint by numbers" product. It requires some creativity from its users. A lot of people consider any new content a challenge to their abilities and imagination, but to see how well people really like something one would probably need to look in the galleries. Also, some (well, a lot) of the post release developement of a figure is accomplished by the Poser community, often in the forums as people share ideas. Even the negative comments can be helpful.

Poser 8 comes with legacy content as well as the new content including Alyson and Ryan. I have always considered Poser content as value added items so that customers would have something to work with right out of the box. There are many free items out their for those who want to look, and of course, many of us have very full runtimes collected over several versions of Poser. There are already some new things for Alyson and Ryan offered at Content Paradise. Their versatility will be enhanced as content providers get to work.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

This happens every release, when people first see the new figures they rip them to shreds then people start making stuff for them & "they're not so bad really"

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

I agree that creativity from the users is partially key here. There are plenty of bad images produced with a high end figure like V4. But I don't think the users or the figure maker should be blamed here. If SM had listened to what users wanted and given the modeler enough time to develop the figures at a competitive and innovative level. Unfortunately that didn't happen and what has occurred in the forums is the result of that.

Service releases are provided for glitches in the software. Perhaps some the figures could be updated as well.

I believe there have been content updates in the past.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

If you read everything I've said about Alyson, I doubt you'd respond that way. There are particular things to critique... and deservedly so. It's a product, after all.

And there are things to praise too. As I've said elsewhere, the amount of morphs available are amazing.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

I just had to put a reaction here. I like Alyson, Ryan, and the rigging, and the figures. Not perfect, OK, but who can pretend to be?

Iit is something new, something different, something strange.
But whaw.
A very usefull figure, and a zillion morph possibilities included; The only limit is your imagination.
And sometimes one has to think outside of the box, and look around a bit.

Like, for the breasts?
You have the FBM, and collars with all their morphs to work on the breasts, but also;
lBreast, and rBreast, selectable from the Body Parts menue.
They also have x, y, z, up-down, and side-side morphs. Ahaaaaa. . . . . .

Again, a pic, of the model I am working on.

just standard morphs, that are all included.
Only thing I added was a morph to lower the breasts, and . . . . . .

If I can makte those with a free proggie like anim8or, anyone can do it.

And, I scaled the arms a bit, and downsized the waist, but that is all part of the game.

It is like the "MAKE ART" button., "Create LIGHT" button, "Create TEXTURE" button.

PS, do not complain for the brick ball. Thas was just an IDL test.
Click for full size.

And I still have to start on the face. But initial testing was very promessing.

Very, very satisfied. And oh, BTW, this is my favorite, the LO res Version.
Thanks SM, good Job.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I think one of the things that puts people off when they load the new figures (which BTW I like A LOT!) is that hey look so royally PISSED OFF!

I mean.. look at Vilters' pic. As nice and realistic (and - YAY - NOT-supermodelish!) as the body is.. the sour expression does nothing good for the character. Yes it can be morphed, and there's a LOT of very nice morphs included - but.. it would have made a big difference if she had loaded, out of the box with a slight smile instead of a scowl. People are hardcoded to react negatively towards angry-looking foreigners. And in that respect, virtual people are no different. A smile OTOH goes a long way, both IRL and in the virtual one. I'm certain I'm not the only one who automatically smiles back if I turn the smile dial on a character. Hardcoded reaction again.

You could always make a custom Alyson to load. Then you'd never have to load the default Alyson ever again.

I rather like BB's take on the subject. He described functional changes to a software product that could be described as "it works" or "it doesn't work". Rather digital. He went on to describe changes that describe a range of degrees. His example of the chin being "too big" or too small" seems to nicely describe the analog nature of this sort of thing.

When I was a kid I found myself up on the roof adjusting our TV antenna for "best" reception. If it were only a simple matter of "we have a picture" or "nothing", it would have been a cake walk. My dad would shout commands out the window and I'd adjust for a "better or "worse" result. Obviously the day stuck in my mind...

Applying this to the new P8 figures, I would be very pleased to see morphs included that allow me to adjust the proportions of the meshes according to real world examples. BOATLOADS of morphs.

Example: Chest morph Cylindrical/Oblong (some people really have a pipe for an upper body, others seem quite squashed)

I could care less about how the boxed figure looks at outset. I'm much happier having the capability of morphing my objects to the shape I require. I like characters that have very large amounts of broadly adjustable parameters. Don't worry, I can adjust them myself. I'll not be asking a dev to crawl around on my roof.

This is ideal for a developer because the user public might just find that it is capable of asking for something that the developer is able to deliver. Functionality on a Yes/No basis. Hopefully lots of it.

I guess that I'm a true fossil, in that I still find both Posette and Dork to be the ideal figures. -especially my remapped variations of them. No matter what you DO to the mesh, or HOW you morph it, in the final analysis, it's the TEXTURE that makes the figure, and nothing else.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

There are now two texture/morph packages on Content Paradise. And they are reasonably priced. There were also some shirts for Alyson.

I agree with Believable3D that any product should be open to fair critique, and I doubt that would distress the developer. To me the Alyson and Ryan figures seem to have short arms, small hands, and large heads. These are things that are hard to change when morphs to lengthen arms and size heads and hands are not included.

The "stock" appearance of the face is fairly easy to change. I found a lot of variety in the morphs, but the expressions look a little like those in Japanese cartoons. I am sure more morphs will become available to add to the variety.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

"To me the Alyson and Ryan figures seem to have short arms, small hands, and large heads. These are things that are hard to change when morphs to lengthen arms and size heads and hands are not included."

Don't the scale dials on this figure work? Or does she/he not have any?
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Alyson has those narrow, but tall, hips like Miki.

what I mean is there is a weird flat plane ( along X) from the top of her hip bone down to the wide part of the thigh

NOT a fave of mine.

a lot of work has to go into getting around that first, before I would be happy starting in on the figure

I'm gonna keep an open mind and keep my eye on some more Alyson renders -

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

dphoadley:

Most of the newer figures (G2, DAZ after M3/V3) do not scale well. Using the scale dails (which are often hidden) can break the mesh or ruin joint bends.

From D3 onward scaling DAZ figures hands breaks the fingers. The newer Characters from there have sizing moprhs for the hands and head. A lot of figures have sizing morphs for leg length, and for the neck ( though all of the neck lengtheing morphs I have tried break the mesh), but none of the newer commercial figures have morphs to lengthen the arms.

As far as scaling is concerned, the older figures did it better. The new rigging features of Poser 8 may allow some knowledgeable person to fix these problems. Time will tell.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

"From D3 onward scaling DAZ figures hands breaks the fingers."

Open cr2 with cr2-editor
Seek 2nd instance of "actor rHand:1"
Open "channels"
Rename the four hand scale channels from "scale-whatever" to "propagatingScale - whatever"
Do the same for the other hand.
Resafe cr2.

Enjoy your new scaleable hands.

But generally speaking, scaling (or "morphforming") is BAD and should be avoided as it invariably distorts the joints and messes up conforming clothes.

JP:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I will study this and try it out.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Not to be flippant with people's serious relevant work and observations, but I believe it's time for a joke I heard (on a compositor's forum) that seems to provide levity and illumination on this thread:

Of course, Relaxing back and looking at white, puffy clouds slowly moving across the blue, blue sky is conducive to daydreams, reflections and thoughts. What goes through the mind of a compositor, on such occasions?
That's easy; they're thinking: "Man, does that look fake!".

@ mobelgod

You make a very good argument.

However -
there are some "just off the factory shelf" problems that may exist that you cannot get around.

The reason I don't use V4 is the crazy high armpit crease..... and the donut ass result of bending her factory ass.
There is no simple morphing that a beginner-to-intermediate artist can do which will fix that particular ugliness without causing problems when you move the joints.

Also, SM wants to SELL product ..... and the figures that come with new releases are obviously big selling points - and to kind of agree and disagree (at the same time) with Trekkkie,
an ATTRACTIVE figure is going to SELL. when you load the figure and say WOW! hot figure! that is a good thing.
I am not saying the figures should look like a perfect playboy model or runway model, I am saying there is some degree of objectivity that all would agree looks "good"

My favorite figure is Sydney from P7. off the shelf she looks like a real girl. her body is very pretty, it is not very 'unique" in one way or another- but it looks damn nice. there is not much you would say is crazy out of whack with her... and she is "tabula rasa" enough to do a lot of things to- easily.
She does have big bony hands and fingers and that is one drawback that I hear A LOT of people bring up - and I think it is reasonable to say - it would be nice if figures came off the shelf inside some margin of looking attractive.

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Well as I have said earlier, I like the new characters a lot. And I don't think they look stylished at all - actually they're the most average looking Poser figures yet IMO.

And they DO come with a boatload of morphs to change a lot of features, includling a certain male bodypart which have morphs other companies can learn a lot from.

This is Ryan, in the Marcus variation. I did morph his face myself, but only with the included morphs. I think he looks pretty good...

Kind of reminds me of the dude from Sliders. Well, at least the face does.

I am not sure I will ever load a male figure into Poser.

I have not to this point.

To each his/ her own

LOL !

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

You need a guy who looks like you. Maybe David or Rikishi. So you can be in the scene yourself.

And it's nice to have a big muscly Freak to rough up your girlies.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

trekkiegirl.

i like your render. and i like how you used the morphs.

I totallty agree. Great pose, and spendid job on the morphing.
Even the backwark body bending, and toso twist.
Great work .
And YES, the new figures are GOOD.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

i think that is a great looking sample from Trekkie-
TG are you saying that this is the Ryan figure- with an included morph set called "marcus" applied?
and your own work on the face?

sorry i am just getting back to Poser in the past week or so- and I have missed a lot about P8 and I want to catch up on the figures.
if this is one of the new figures and its included body morphs it is pretty great- but I wont be working with the male body any time soon.
I will leave penis manipulation to those who can do it with more fervor.

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Quote - Kind of reminds me of the dude from Sliders. Well, at least the face does.

The first question that popped in my mind when I read this was.. "And the rest does not?" then...

"And when did you see the rest to know?"

:lol:

ratscloset
aka John

*"You need a guy who looks like you. Maybe David or Rikishi. So you can be in the scene yourself.

And it's nice to have a big muscly Freak to rough up your girlies."

*I love that post so much, TZORG, that I am printing it and framing it.

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Re scaling: I scaled the ridiculously long default neck down without any apparent problems.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Quote - Still no postwork, just good rigging.

Stunning! That's the realism I'd like to see in figures in all the poser community figures.

BTW your leg rigging rocks to get that high kick. I love high kick action poses in action sequences and that figure has the right stuff for that. Looks positively real! ^_____^

Edit.
Hmmmm..... It seems this forum doesn't carry over the images with the quotes so to clearify things I'm talking about JoePublic's awesome figure. Joe you rock!

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

Quote - i think that is a great looking sample from Trekkie-
TG are you saying that this is the Ryan figure- with an included morph set called "marcus" applied?
and your own work on the face?

The Poser 8 guy, Ryan, comes with three alternate personalities, Marcus, who's a black guy, Tomo, who's asian and Diego who's latin american or something. They come with each their preset face morpha nd texture. And I just turned the dials further from the Marcus default. So it's my morph and not. As in, it's not a custom morph, just a dial spin job :) Mostly to show what the potential of these characters is ^_^

And welcome back! Still trying to get used to your new avatar ^_^I myself has resurfaced recently after a very long Poser hiatus. But since Poser 8 was too good an opportunity to miss.. I'm back! L

Quote - > Quote - Kind of reminds me of the dude from Sliders. Well, at least the face does.

The first question that popped in my mind when I read this was.. "And the rest does not?" then...

"And when did you see the rest to know?"

:lol:

Well, I haven't. That's the whole point. :biggrin:

Thanks, 3Dream! That's a very nice looking morph. Huge improvement of the mouth... and generally everything.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Nice morph there 3Dream!! You have a nice smile too in your avatar!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

My Store is HERE

My Freebies are HERE

TG:
*And welcome back! Still trying to get used to your new avatar ^_^I myself has resurfaced recently after a very long Poser hiatus. But since Poser 8 was too good an opportunity to miss.. I'm back! L

.......Nice to see you again, too!

3Dream : that's a nice face- a nice young looking face. sorta demure . cool.
Also you look a bit like Adam Sandler.
and I think someone here likes you

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Gorgeous, you should give the same treatment to other figures.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Content Paradise is offering what appears to be three total body morphs for Alyson and her sister morphs. It is called Plastic Surgeon.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Yeah, he might even squeeze out a sale if he put a few examples of what his product will do on the page.

[Shrug] I agree. I'm not buying unless I see some more promotional images. Or, some one who has bought the product supplies some renders.

But, there are some products for enhancing the base Alyson/Ryan figures already appearing.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Who are you referring to? If it's 3Dream, the morph is free....

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

No, I think they are referring to the new morph pack at CP. There are promos but from what I can see they are just for the breasts. Sorry to say, $15.00 for breast enhancements is a bit steep in my book. Of course I'm not a boob man so there ya go!! :lol:

---Wolff On The Prowl---

My Store is HERE

My Freebies are HERE

@JoePublic:

Please be a gentleman and offer that poor girl a sandwich!!!

Laurie

Quote - @JoePublic:

Please be a gentleman and offer that poor girl a sandwich!!!

Laurie

Why? Apparently it all just goes to her right hand! :lol:

Actually, it's her left hand (our right)

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No, your right hand can be the left side of someone you're facing, but it will always be your right hand.

Quote - Actually, it's her left hand (our right)

Yeah, I sometimes confuse left and right as well. It helps to try and write "right" down, because if I try to write it right with my right, it looks pretty wrong.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

Quote - No, your right hand can be the left side of someone you're facing, but it will always be your right hand.

Which would make it "our" right and "her" left :)

(pedantic ?? moi ?? )

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Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Has Poser 8 given up on photo-realism?