ice-boy opened this issue on Aug 14, 2009 · 89 posts
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:22 AM
its very hard to find answers in those long threads. and there are like 100 threads. so this thread is only for tone mapping . the new render setting in poser 8.
tone mapping was added for all the people who didnt understand gamma correction in poser pro.
its easier to turn on and you dont need to change your materials.
of course if you have no idea what you are doing then your results will suck. IMO it would be better to gave GC. but what can we do.
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:22 AM
ok BB i think i found my first problem with tone mapping.
it makes the background images brighter. for example the reflection map from the ENsphere.
so i made tests. if i plug something in the ambient channel or alt-diffuse then the tone mapping changes it.if we can not change this then this is a big problem.
i tryed anti-GC the image with 2,2 and 2 . but it doesnt look like the original image.
hborre posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:32 AM
We going to need visual representations for clarity. Testing out this feature for the first time recently on an image I have been working on in PoserPro and I have found that activated IDL with tone mapping set to 2.2 gave me an identical render as Gc 2.2 in PP. I don't have comparison images saved yet. Maybe over the weekend.
BTW, what is the setting of your Tone Mapping? Mine was HSV.
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:51 AM
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:51 AM
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:52 AM
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 9:52 AM
everything is turned of. image is plugged in the alternate diffuse
IsaoShi posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 10:58 AM
As I understand it, Tone Mapping operates on the final 2D render, not on the 3D materials.
So your pictures show exactly what we would expect... don't they?
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 11:00 AM
so we need to use shaders to get rid of this? because how else can we then use the env-sphere?
bagginsbill posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 11:01 AM
You're going to need two threads.
One to show something, explain it incorrectly, we have an argument, we show another version, then we conclude how it works. Then somebody shows an exception, then we find a workaround, then we discuss the problem with that.
Then I come in and announce that I completely misunderstood the math 3 days ago, and all that stuff I said about 2.2 exposure is crap. Then we start over.
By now the thread is 18 pages long, full of misinformation.
The other thread I will post in next month, when I am not so stupid with Poser 8.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 11:03 AM
Start with the math, because our eyes and our expectations deceive us.
If you must experiment, go simple. Plug a known RGB value, such as 255, 128, 64 into Alt_Diffuse and render with various settings.
Measure the color rendered.
Make observations.
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ice-boy posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 11:10 AM
this should be the thread only to talk about tone mapping. its so hard to find your posts BB.
everyone that has a question opens a new thread. and its crazy here on the forum.
pakled posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 10:19 PM
oh...I thought this was going to be about synesthesia...;) don't mind me...;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Whichway posted Fri, 14 August 2009 at 10:55 PM
bagginsbill - What math? I love math. 
Whichway
scarlock posted Sat, 15 August 2009 at 7:16 PM
Ok - I have tried to do as BB suggested and have run a quick test with Exponential Tone Mapping.
I started with the attached render (render settings in the next post) and saved it as a TIFF. I checked all of the colors in the right hand column and they matched the input colors.
I then re-rendered with Exponential Tone Mapping on and saved as a TIFF. I've checked some of the colors and here's a sample of the data:
Color Original
White (255, 255, 255)
Light Grey (191, 191, 191)
Med. Grey (127, 127, 127)
Dark Grey ( 64, 64, 64)
BB's Color (255, 128, 64)
Random Color (109, 205, 35)
Color E 1.0
White (161, 161, 161)
Light Grey (134, 134, 134)
Med. Grey (100, 100, 100)
Dark Grey ( 56, 56, 56)
BB's Color (161, 101, 56)
Random Color ( 89, 141, 32)
Color E 1.5
White (198, 198, 198)
Light Grey (172, 172, 172)
Med. Grey (134, 134, 134)
Dark Grey ( 80, 80, 80)
BB's Color (198, 135, 80)
Random Color (121, 179, 47)
Color E 2.0
White (221, 221, 221)
Light Grey (198, 198, 198)
Med. Grey (161, 161, 161)
Dark Grey (101, 101, 101)
BB's Color (221, 162, 101)
Random Color (147, 204, 61)
Color E 2.5
White (234, 234, 234)
Light Grey (216, 216, 216)
Med. Grey (182, 182, 182)
Dark Grey (119, 119, 119)
BB's Color (234, 183, 119)
Random Color (168, 221, 74)
Color E 3.0
White (243, 243, 243)
Light Grey (228, 228, 228)
Med. Grey (198, 198, 198)
Dark Grey (135, 135, 135)
BB's Color (243, 199, 135)
Random Color (184, 233, 86)
(If there is a better way to present this information, please let me know)
So now the question is, What does this tell us?
If this looks useful I can also run it for HSV Exponential Tone Mapping.
[Edited trying to get the formatting better, but it obviously didn't work]
scarlock posted Sat, 15 August 2009 at 7:18 PM
DarksealStudios posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 12:25 AM
There is not "correct setting"... every image is different. I saw from the 1st renders I did that the 2.2 setting gave over exposed renders, which might be what your looking for in a certain situation. IMO I start at a 1.6 and do test renders to see if I want to raise or lower it.
Your eyes don't decieve you...it's art people, art.
Or did you find the make art button in poser 8?
Well, maybe thats someones request for sp1
Whichway posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 3:40 AM
Yes, please do the HSV series as well. If you can, please record the HSV values of the sample pixels in both renders.
The formula for this one seems to be:
y(x) = x * (1-exp(-eta * x / 255)), 0 <= x and x <= 255
where
x = the input pixel channel value [R, G, or B],
y = corresponding output value,
eta = the "exponent" parameter, and
exp() = the exponential function for the base of natural logarithms.
This is a pretty standard saturation-type expression.
Whichway
(Of course, I realize that as soon as somebody else checks my figures, I'll be wrong. )
scarlock posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 3:05 PM
Here are the values for the HSV series as well - I've included a couple more data points.
Color Original
White (255, 255, 255)
Light Grey (191, 191, 191)
Med. Grey (127, 127, 127)
Dark Grey ( 64, 64, 64)
BB's Color (255, 128, 64)
Random Color (109, 205, 35)
Color HSV 1.0
White (161, 161, 161)
Light Grey (134, 134, 134)
Med. Grey (100, 100, 100)
Dark Grey ( 56, 56, 56)
BB's Color (161, 81, 40)
Random Color ( 75, 141, 24)
Color HSV 1.5
White (198, 198, 198)
Light Grey (172, 172, 172)
Med. Grey (134, 134, 134)
Dark Grey ( 80, 80, 80)
BB's Color (198, 99, 49)
Random Color ( 95, 179, 30)
Color HSV 2.0
White (221, 221, 221)
Light Grey (198, 198, 198)
Med. Grey (161, 161, 161)
Dark Grey (101, 101, 101)
BB's Color (221, 111, 55)
Random Color (108, 204, 34)
Color HSV 2.1
White (224, 224, 224)
Light Grey (202, 202, 202)
Med. Grey (166, 166, 166)
Dark Grey (104, 104, 104)
BB's Color (224, 112, 56)
Random Color (110, 208, 35)
Color HSV 2.2
White (227, 227, 227)
Light Grey (206, 206, 206)
Med. Grey (170, 170, 170)
Dark Grey (108, 108, 108)
BB's Color (227, 114, 57)
Random Color (112, 212, 36)
Color HSV 2.5
White (234, 234, 234)
Light Grey (216, 216, 216)
Med. Grey (182, 182, 182)
Dark Grey (119, 119, 119)
BB's Color (234, 117, 58)
Random Color (117, 231, 37)
Color HSV 3.0
White (243, 243, 243)
Light Grey (228, 228, 228)
Med. Grey (198, 198, 198)
Dark Grey (135, 135, 135)
BB's Color (243, 122, 61)
Random Color (123, 233, 39)
Whichway posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 3:13 PM
Thanks!
Well, the obvious observation is that the results are identical to the simple Exponential version.
Whichway
scarlock posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 4:44 PM
Whichway - Not really. They are similar for the "Pure colors" (White, greys, and anytime an RGB channel value is 255), but not for other colors. Take a look at BB's color and my Random Color. This is why I included the extra results at 2.1 and 2.2.
It appears that HSV Exponential is a function of all three color values (which makes since from the name - duh....) and it is stable across the values. What I mean is - the two colors in the top row of my render are BB's color (255, 128, 64) {the orange} and the same values, just in a different order (64, 128, 255) {the blue}. With Exponential tone mapping the channel values were consistent and independent of each other - for a given tone mapping level a channel value of 128 will always map to the same value no matter what the other color channels values are. With HSV Exponential, that is not true. Compare the values returned for Dark Grey with the Green Channel values from BB's color. And while I didn't list the blue version of BB's color in the above table, it's values tracked exactly with the orange version, just with the Red and Blue channel values swapped.
Give me a few minutes and I'll get some samples from some of the other squares. (I was only using the right hand column from my original post for these results as well).
Whichway posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 4:52 PM
Ah! Good, I was hoping I was wrong on that one. I suppose it was inevitable that the grey's would match since the very fact that they are grey means they only have V in HSV.
Whichway
scarlock posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 5:17 PM
I'm not going to post any more results from the HSV Exponential unless anyone really wants to see them.
I've just had my D'Oh moment - Exponential tone mapping should really be called RGB Exponential because it's mapping in the RGB color space. HSV Exponential is mapping in the HSV Color space. If I had used HSV tuples instead of RGB tuples in my second listing, it would have followed the exact same pattern as the first data set. (I don't know if I can make IrfanView show HSV instead of RGB, but I'm not going to worry about it now).
Whichway posted Sun, 16 August 2009 at 7:41 PM
Exactly!
ice-boy posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 5:30 AM
interesting.
anything new ?
Whichway posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 1:28 PM
ice-boy - Two things, in my mind. First is scarlock's point that the difference between Exponential and HSV Exponential is the color space they work in. For (RGB) Exponential, the transfer function I wrote down is applied to each of the R, G, and B axes separately, while for HSV Exponential, it is applied to the V axis only. The point of defining HSV coordinates in the first place is so that the perceptual qualities of Hue, Saturation and Value are decoupled from each other - changing one does not effect the other two. So, HSV Exponential compresses only the Value without changing the Hue or Saturation. For (RGB) Exponential, these perceptual qualities are cross-coupled; changing just R will change all three of HSV. Changing all three of RBG by the same factor will, I think, leave Hue the same, but mix Saturation and Value. Changing Value is equivalent to turning down the brightness of the lights and doing nothing else.
The second is that Tone Mapping is really quite different from Gamma Correction. The Gamma Correction transfer function is concentrated at the low end of the brightness scale; it works on the "toe" of the response curve. [For the ubertechies, the fact that the top value of the transfer function is pinned at 255 forces all the change with gamma to the low end of the transfer function.] If you look at the Tone Mapping transfer function, you'll see that is does practically nothing at the low end of the brightness scale but compresses the high end; it works on the "shoulder" of the response curve. As the Poser 8 documentation says, it is designed to simulate the saturation that happens in real film and avoid hard clipping of highlights in digital images.
My conclusion would be that Tone Mapping and Gamma Correction are very distinct things and you should not try to use one in place of the other. "Correct" usage uses both, and all the old GC discussion is still true.
Whichway
Whichway posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 1:33 PM
Another thing: the "do nothing" setting of the Exposure is 0.0, not 1.0. [This should be checked to make sure I'm not talking through my hat again.]
Whichway
bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 7:42 PM
Quote - Yes, please do the HSV series as well. If you can, please record the HSV values of the sample pixels in both renders.
The formula for this one seems to be:
y(x) = x * (1-exp(-eta * x / 255)), 0 <= x and x <= 255
where
x = the input pixel channel value [R, G, or B],
y = corresponding output value,
eta = the "exponent" parameter, and
exp() = the exponential function for the base of natural logarithms.This is a pretty standard saturation-type expression.
Whichway
(Of course, I realize that as soon as somebody else checks my figures, I'll be wrong.
Close, but not quite right. I got the formula from Stefan, just in case it differes from some standard.
First, luminance is a floating point value, and is not limited to 0 <= x <= 1. It can be greater than 1 as is found in HDRI. That's the whole point of the tone mapping - to compress all values into the range 0 to 1. Of course, we can convert to/from our usual 8-bit RGB values 0 to 255 by a simple multiplication/division. But be aware that shaders work in floats, and often produce values greater than 1. The final output is, of course, clamped to the range 0..1, but on the way it can be much greater (or even negative). However, this tone mapping equation is not intended to deal with negative or imaginary colors. grin
y(x) = gain * (1 - exp(-exposure * x ))
For clarity, I changed the label eta to exposure. There is another parameter, gain, which is not presented to us as a settable parameter in render settings. But it exists inside Poser and we can get to it via Python. But unless we do that, the gain is 1.
Of course, if you really want to work in 8-bit units, then the final output color is:
y(x) = min(max(floor(255 * gain * (1 - exp(-exposure * x / 255)) + .5), 0), 1)
And you guys did correctly figure out that HSV ETM is in HSV space and operates only on V.
Basically, in RGB, the new RGB is calculated like this when using HSV ETM:
K = y(V) / V # where V is whichever component is brightest
R' = R * K
G' = G * K
B' = B * K
That isn't how Poser actually does it, mores the pity. The way i just described is much faster than what Poser does. Poser converts the old RGB to HSV, updates V, then converts the new HSV back to RGB. Very wasteful, but it doesn't really matter, because rendering takes much longer than this less-than-optimal tone mapping step, much much longer. If I had written it, I would use the way I just described, since it skips the RGBtoHSV and HSVtoRGB.
More to come...
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 7:54 PM
The bold line is Exposure=1.6, the default.
The bottom is Exposure = 1.0.
The top is Exposure = 2.2.
There is no such thing as a "do nothing" Exposure value.
This function never reaches 1, no matter how big x is.
The purpose of it is to map all values from 0 to infinity into the range 0 to 1. You can adjust the curve up or down, but you cannot change its shape.
An interesting observation, then, is that with ETM enabled, you cannot make a pure white pixel (RGB 255 255 255), unless you have a shader produce a luminance value in the thousands.
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:00 PM
None of the ETM curves are at all similar to the GC curve.
ETM with gain = 1.0 cannot reproduce an outcome that is similar to GC with any value of Exposure.
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:09 PM
Black is what we used to see when we just rendered straight out.
Red is the GC curve - perfectly linear luminance.
Blue is the ETM curve with exposure at 2.2. Not even close to the effective luminance of GC. In fact, it's really bad. Low contrast, darker than it should be everywhere.
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:14 PM
Here Exposure is 2.3, Gain is 1.11.
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 9:17 PM
Here is a scene rendered with:
exposure = 2
gain = 1
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 9:17 PM
exposure = 2.3
gain = 1.1
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 9:19 PM
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 9:21 PM
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 9:29 PM
Exposure 1.68
Gain 1.23
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Miss Nancy posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 10:13 PM
I like the HSV 1.68 render best, so far. on my monitor (1.8 gamma).
ice-boy posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 1:51 AM
but wasnt the point of TM that it would be easier to understand then GC?
this is a lot of info again. and if they need to read this now and learn it all then what is the point? i dont want to complain. i just ask. yes i understand that its easier that they dont need to change GC on every transparency map.
but look now i have TM and i can not use a reflection map . because TM changes it.
its not a problem to me. because i am reading and learning. but others dont want to.
bagginsbill posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 9:51 AM
You are right that it messes up the rendition of a photo, such as used on an EnvSphere. To get the photo directly out as is, you would have to anti-ETM the photo!!! LOL Nobody but us will do that.
But outside of the EnvSphere or reflection map issue, ETM is easier for an "artist" to deal with. Too dark? Increase exposure. Too light? Decrease exposure. Artists will not ponder the math. They will tweak and test render for days. I, on the other hand, will compute the right formula and produce an accurately lit render in the first try. I will also use that formula over and over, because I do not make inconsistent shaders. My components all behave as much as possible to the standards set by reality, which means I'm not having to guess-and-test very much as different element of fhe scene appear out of whack.
Only reason I'm posting these details, is so that people who do not want to waste time can benefit from the experiments, and learn from them, and because I was asked to do so in a couple PMs. For the artists, they should skip the formulas, and just look at the test renders, see which they like best, and copy the two numbers I used, and move on. Copying two numbers does not require a PhD in math.
Some people are actually insulted/irritated by my technical postings and have said so. They can go fuck themselves.
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Khai-J-Bach posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 9:55 AM
if they don't like 'em don't read 'em
those of us that want to know, thank you.
ice-boy posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 9:56 AM
i agree with your post.
anti-TMN will also be used on materials with reflection?
bagginsbill posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:02 AM
If you are using ETM and have a photo for a background or for reflections, the ETM will alter the photo. You would need to anti-ETM the photo, just like you need to anti-GC the photo if the last step is to apply GC. Anti-GC + GC = no change. Anti-ETM + ETM = no change.
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Synpainter posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:05 AM
Quote - You are right that it messes up the rendition of a photo, such as used on an EnvSphere. To get the photo directly out as is, you would have to anti-ETM the photo!!! LOL Nobody but us will do that.
But outside of the EnvSphere or reflection map issue, ETM is easier for an "artist" to deal with. Too dark? Increase exposure. Too light? Decrease exposure. Artists will not ponder the math. They will tweak and test render for days. I, on the other hand, will compute the right formula and produce an accurately lit render in the first try. I will also use that formula over and over, because I do not make inconsistent shaders. My components all behave as much as possible to the standards set by reality, which means I'm not having to guess-and-test very much as different element of fhe scene appear out of whack.
Only reason I'm posting these details, is so that people who do not want to waste time can benefit from the experiments, and learn from them, and because I was asked to do so in a couple PMs. For the artists, they should skip the formulas, and just look at the test renders, see which they like best, and copy the two numbers I used, and move on. Copying two numbers does not require a PhD in math.
Some people are actually insulted/irritated by my technical postings and have said so. They can go fuck themselves.
I like the "Quick and Easy" approach of just copying your numbers, it gives me a base to start from, so learning from your examples is in the words of VIsa Ads "Priceless" , after initial settings then I experiment so I understand WHAT the parameter settings actually do....
I find no irritation in being offered Free Education via someone else's examples and explanations.
I find your Tech posts, at times make me feel like I should not have slept so much through math class ;), but VERY informative non the less.
Keep it coming! Tech or layman makes no difference to me. :)
"Appreciative Reader"
bagginsbill posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:05 AM
For example, have you seen SemiDieu's Postwork Manager? It is interactive ETM on steroids, and includes GC, too!
Menu Scripts/Partners/ShaderWorks/Postwork Manager
Screen shot above shows me applying GC and brightness, contrast, saturation, etc to a render all within Poser.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:08 AM
Thanks, people, for affirming the interest in my posts. I appreciate it.
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ice-boy posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:09 AM
Quote - If you are using ETM and have a photo for a background or for reflections, the ETM will alter the photo. You would need to anti-ETM the photo, just like you need to anti-GC the photo if the last step is to apply GC. Anti-GC + GC = no change. Anti-ETM + ETM = no change.
i understand.
did you got the formula for tone mapping from stewart?is TM also the function POW ?
ice-boy posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:11 AM
Quote - As I've said before, one of the awesome new features of P8 is the wxPython interface. P8 comes with some fantastic plugins enabled by this API, and you will see more over time. These add so much to Poser's capabilities.
For example, have you seen SemiDieu's Postwork Manager? It is interactive ETM on steroids, and includes GC, too!
Menu Scripts/Partners/ShaderWorks/Postwork Manager
Screen shot above shows me applying GC and brightness, contrast, saturation, etc to a render all within Poser.
i saw this. its very good.
bagginsbill posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:13 AM
Yes from stewer (Stefan Werner). ETM is not just pow. I gave the formula earlier in this thread. If you have not changed posts per page, it is page 1, 3rd from the bottom.
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ice-boy posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:15 AM
aha i see. i dont understand all those words. i will whait until someone posts a screenshot from the material room. :)
LaurieA posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 10:59 AM
Quote - Thanks, people, for affirming the interest in my posts. I appreciate it.
I await with anticipation any wisdom you choose to impart to the rest of us....lol.
Laurie
lkendall posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 11:59 AM
"P8 comes with some fantastic plugins enabled by this API, and you will see more over time. These add so much to Poser's capabilities."
Wow. I am going to have to actually open some of those Python Scripts. The names do not really reveal what one will find inside. I have been using IrfanView's Color Correction feature to do what Postwork Manager will do.
Does the GC in Postwork Manager work the same as in Poser Pro? That is, does it un-GC textures before applying GC to the final Render? Is there a way to simulate the Poser Pro ability to turn off GC for specific textures?
I finally found the setting for light fall-off, and again, Wow. This is so much more realistic for lights. Now I have to figure out how to redo my lighting to take advantage of this.
LMK
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
Whichway posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 12:36 PM
bagginsbill - Obviously, I love the technical details. I blather on endlessly on these threads trying to figure out what's "really going on". At least you get the answers right, though I not sure asking Stewer isn't cheating. Please keep it up.
Whichway
FrankT posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 3:21 PM
fwiw, I really enjoy your posts BB. I might not render in Poser any more but no knowledge is ever wasted and you never know when it'll come in handy.
but yeah - if they don't like it, they can FOAD
IsaoShi posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 3:38 PM
Quote - Does the GC in Postwork Manager work the same as in Poser Pro? That is, does it un-GC textures before applying GC to the final Render? Is there a way to simulate the Poser Pro ability to turn off GC for specific textures?
I thought you'd get an answer to these questions by now...
No, it doesn't. It only GC's the output render.
If you want to anti-GC incoming textures/colours you have to do it in the shaders, the same way as we did in Poser 7.
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
lkendall posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 6:00 PM
IsaoShi:
I am patient I can wait to get a good answer. Thank you.
LMK
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
ice-boy posted Sat, 22 August 2009 at 4:33 AM
can someone who undertands anti-TM post a screenhot from the material room? how to anti ETM.
thanks.
dadt posted Sat, 22 August 2009 at 5:58 AM
I like the examples posted by Bagginsbill with different settings and want to try some of these on my own scenes but I cannot find a "gain" adjustment, just the "exposure". Could some kind person point me in the right direction please?
bagginsbill posted Sat, 22 August 2009 at 8:33 AM
As I said, the gain has no GUI widget for it, so I was setting it via Python. Stefan and I briefly discussed it. His opinion was that Gain is not useful. At the time, I was not able to agree or disagree, so I let it go. Now that I've examined the formula closely and rendered with it, I disagree with him. The Gain is useful. It is not useful if you are doing true [0, infinity] into [0, 1] mapping, but that's not what we're doing. We're mapping, for example, [0, 1] into [0, 1] and for that the Gain is very helpful. Notice the case where I had Gain = 1.11, that is exactly what I did. The range [0, 1] mapped to [0, 1].
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Sat, 22 August 2009 at 8:35 AM
Quote - can someone who undertands anti-TM post a screenhot from the material room? how to anti ETM.
thanks.
Nobody has done it. I only mentioned it as an academic point. Do you really want a photo converted to [0, infinity] color space?
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
ice-boy posted Sat, 22 August 2009 at 8:49 AM
i want to render reflection but i dont want to change the pic :)
Whichway posted Sun, 30 August 2009 at 12:39 PM
Quote - As I said, the gain has no GUI widget for it, so I was setting it via Python. Stefan and I briefly discussed it. His opinion was that Gain is not useful. At the time, I was not able to agree or disagree, so I let it go. Now that I've examined the formula closely and rendered with it, I disagree with him. The Gain is useful. It is not useful if you are doing true [0, infinity] into [0, 1] mapping, but that's not what we're doing. We're mapping, for example, [0, 1] into [0, 1] and for that the Gain is very helpful. Notice the case where I had Gain = 1.11, that is exactly what I did. The range [0, 1] mapped to [0, 1].
If I can resurrect this thread for a moment, on the Dimension 3D panel, there is an unlabeled slider next to the Tone Mapping Enable checkbox. Is this perchance the Gain?
Whichway
DarkEdge posted Sun, 30 August 2009 at 1:13 PM
I find your posts very useful Baggins.
Often times you talk way over my head but that's okay, pictures speak a thousand words. I also appreciate your posting the settings too.
DarkEdge posted Sun, 30 August 2009 at 9:36 PM
BB, does it matter what filter number you choose...1,2, or 3?
If so can you please explain the difference between them in laymans terms?
Miss Nancy posted Sun, 30 August 2009 at 9:49 PM
yes, whichway - the unlabelled slider (sr0) on d3d's script is for variable toneGain.
Whichway posted Sun, 30 August 2009 at 11:11 PM
Thanks you!
Whichway
ice-boy posted Tue, 01 September 2009 at 4:44 AM
did someone manage to make an anti tone mapping shader?
GeneralNutt posted Wed, 02 September 2009 at 11:44 PM
Quote - Now rendered tih:
exposure = 2.3
gain = 1.1
Could anyone give say (for dummies) what the python script to make the gain 1.1 would be, where you enter it, and I guess you have to do it on each scene or can you set it to stay that way always?
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 03 September 2009 at 12:21 AM
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 03 September 2009 at 12:24 AM
Whichway posted Thu, 03 September 2009 at 12:28 AM
I think, but have not personally verified, that the unlabeled slider next to the Enable Tone Mapping checkbox on the Dimension 3D panel is the gain.
Whichway
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 03 September 2009 at 12:33 AM
said variable is also mentioned in python manual, it is probably in one or more lines of d3d's script (in case anybody wishes to read the script) and the variable, once assigned, is available by saving and reading the pz3 file. in OS X, use BBEdit. yeah, I just checked - it's in two lines in the script, along with a line "it's currently not possible to turn GI on/off by Poser Python". which was the only way we could do it in poser 7.
GeneralNutt posted Wed, 09 September 2009 at 1:25 AM
Thank You, I don't know why I missed the notification of the thread, but I hunted it down got the info and am a happy camper. Again Thank You.
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 6:28 AM
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 8:04 AM
i did now some tests with reflection. i thought that we have to anti-TM the material for reflection. but it looks like we dont have to.
correct bagginsbill?
bagginsbill posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 8:23 AM
Correct, you don't have to do anything elsewhere - just on the photo.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 8:27 AM
i did a test render with IDL.
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 8:28 AM
this is the shader. but i dont understand why is there a bright edge at the bottom. the reflection from the ground shout block the env_sphere.
bagginsbill posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 8:38 AM
Uhoh. Do you think the light leak through single-layer polygon bug is back?
That was fixed, but maybe it has returned.
Try using a thin box under the sphere - do you get different results?
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 9:00 AM
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 9:00 AM
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 9:19 AM
ice-boy posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 9:21 AM
with the IDL render it looks to me that the rays only see how the ground is lighten up and after that they add the shadows.
bagginsbill posted Sat, 03 October 2009 at 12:29 PM
Interesting.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
ice-boy posted Sun, 04 October 2009 at 11:17 AM
very interesting. its to bad i can not use now reflection. but i am not so mad since i got shadow samples. it rocks. so good. and IDL is working very good and very fast . i get good results.
i will wait until SR2. maybe december? ;) :)
jdcooke posted Sun, 04 October 2009 at 11:54 AM
Perhaps reflections without IDL as a seperate pass, then assemble in an image editor - for now
take care
ice-boy posted Sun, 04 October 2009 at 11:57 AM
can not do reflection in a seperate pass because then IDL wont be in the reflections.
bagginsbill posted Thu, 08 October 2009 at 12:16 PM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Thu, 08 October 2009 at 12:16 PM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)