Believable3D opened this issue on Aug 18, 2009 · 93 posts
Believable3D posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 12:58 AM
Okay, pardon me for swearing. ;-)
Just curious whether anyone is using both of these. I have used the basic free DS off and on, but not extensively. However, the DS3 Advanced version includes GI, indirect lighting, SSS and full 64 bit support. Even P8 doesn't have the latter two. I'm curious what someone who has used both IDL in P8 and GI in DS3 thinks about the comparative quality of each, as well as render times. (My initial experience with DS was that I wasn't even able to render with the software renderer, a frustration that led me to Poser to begin with. But later on with a new version, I found rendering speeds to be very fast compared to Poser Pro. But now with Poser 8, everything is a different kettle of fish again.)
I'm actually a member of the Platinum Club at DAZ, so I can pay considerably below list price if I want it (though I'd probably wait for another one of their supersales again... I think I could have had it for under $50 when it came out).
I bought Carrara Pro a few months ago, which I regret as the GUI is indecipherable for me, but I can find my way around DS reasonably well. DS3 Advanced probably would have been a much smarter purchase for me, had I waited for it to come out.
Product info for DS 3 Advanced.
______________
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
wolf359 posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:26 AM
It Depends on what you primarily do
DS3 advanced seems to have a more Stable/faster GI Engine & Content Library.
The figure Mixer is a superior feature over poser8
DS3 has the "aniMate" plugin Which makes it Superior to poser if you need to quickly create some character animation.
the morph Follower is a nice feature.
but Poser8 Does have WW.
For the $73 Dollar "platinum club" price
you may be better off with DS in the long run
IMHO.
Cheers
MikeJ posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:29 AM
Don't you have to buy all that render stuff and everything else - plugins and such - separately?
wolf359 posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:33 AM
No click on the link at the bottom of the OP's post
and read the DS3A feature list for yourself.
Cheers
MikeJ posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:45 AM
I didn't notice there was a link there.
Looks cool, looks better than DS Free.
Is it any easier to use Poser content in it? Last time I tried DS I had such a bitch of a time trying to figure out how to add my own content I just said to hell with it.
wolf359 posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:53 AM
I am Still on DS 2.3x as My macbook does not meet the open GL requirement for DS3
but I find it quite easy to access my poser runtime in DS.
But I personally only use DS only for the
aniMate+ plugin for character animation
which I can export to animated pose files
I use Cinema 4D R11 Studio with interposer pro® For my actual renders and other CG work.
Cheers.
lmckenzie posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 8:22 AM
"Morph Follower - This feature allows you to add support for new figures in old clothing by automatically creating new morphs to fit an unsupported shape. (Based on technology by EvilInnocence)" - so they've apparently incorporated Crossdresser which would be the equivalent of P8 including WW.
"Map Transfer - This allows you to convert a texture from one figure's UV's so they can be used on another figure's UV's." - I didn't know they had built in texture conversion as well.
On the renderers, Daz "seems" to be using the stock 3Delight engine and picking and choosing what functionality to expose inside DS. I thought that Poser was using Pixels3D's Tempest engine as Firefly but recent posts state that Stewer wrote the P8 renderer so I'm confused. Maybe they bought the source and he's modifying it but it sounds more like a new engine.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
Believable3D posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 8:36 AM
In some ways, it almost looks like DS3 Advanced is a much better deal than their free version, unless you're really a casual user and don't dig into many features at all. There are quite a few relatively expensive plugins there. With the free version, it can actually get pretty expensive.
Meh. I'll probably buy it when it goes back on sale. I'd kinda like to have it for doing promos in DS when my characters start coming out.
It is pretty funny that DS already supports native 64 bit and Poser doesn't.
______________
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
wolf359 posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 10:03 AM
I personally see D/S surpassing poser soon
right now DS dynamic cloth system is its weakest area as well as no Dynamic Hair but nether of these seem to be a Deal breaker for the majority of users.
looking at how posers Dynamic hair has not even put a Dent in the Transmap hair market.
I think it would'nt hurt for a PC member like yourself
to try DS3 Advanced.
Cheers
Hawkins-GraFX posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 10:16 AM
:)
Be nice to Carrara. :)
I personally feel the GUI in Carrara 7 is very easy to use.
But, I've been using Carrara since it was known as Ray Dream Studio back in 1998 I think. ;)
I'm also considering picking up DAZ Studio Advanced rather than Poser 8.
Kinda sad for me since I've been using Poser since version 2.
Clint
Believable3D posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 10:21 AM
I find it hard to be nice to Carrara. I know it produces great stuff, but I couldn't do the first thing in it. Very unintuitive to me. Longtime users of course will have a different perspective. But for me it feels like nothing else at all.
______________
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
Hawkins-GraFX posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 12:11 PM
Yea - I agree there - that it has its own unique GUI.
I appreciate you starting this discussion since I'm also thinking about DAZ Studio Advanced.
:)
bopperthijs posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:15 PM
Personally I think that when you're used to one particulair GUI, it's rather hard to learn and to appreciate another one. From both sides: poser as well Daz|studio users I hear complaints about the terrible GUI of the "other" application. As a poser I find it difficult to use DS, because of the GUI, although I have the opinion that DS offers a lot valuable features that Poser doesn't have like the puppeteer module, which is great for making animations or in between poses. Both applications have a property editor, but the looks and feels are quite different: Poser has dials and DS has sliders. It are just those little things that make someone love or hate a program. I have the same problem with autocad and Rhino: Rhino is by origin a autocad-clone, and sometimes I use those two programs simultaneously, but when I switch from the one to other, I sometimes get confused by the different behaviour of their GUI's (right-or middle mouse clicks by example)
But to stay one topic: the main reason I don't drop poser is the dynamic clothing, I use it very often, for all kinds of purpose, not only clothes but also drapes and sheets, (look at my dynamic chairs in my freebie section) Just when there will be an easy (and cheap) way to make dynamic clothes for DS I would consider to turn to the dark side. (BTW 64bit dynamic clothing is still not supported AFAIK)
Rigging figures on the other hand is a complete different story: I bought the advanced figure setup for DS, and like others I impressed about the possibilities. I haven't used the new Poser8 setup-room yet, but there have to be some mayor changes to beat the DS rigging plug-in.
considering rendering and material setup: The new DS advanced material editor is just as if not more complex than the poser materialroom, so I haven't had the time to dig in the more advanced and esoteric features like subsurfacescattering and global illumination. to compair it with poser.
I think that DS-advanced has come very close to poser, but the new poser 8 update has given me enough reason to keep using it. DS has a lot of new features and possibilities, but it will take a long time before I have learned to use it with the same easyness I use Poser.
best regards,
Bopper.
-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?
Hawkins-GraFX posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:24 PM
Thanks Bopper!
Clint
Penguinisto posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 4:47 PM
Quote -
On the renderers, Daz "seems" to be using the stock 3Delight engine and picking and choosing what functionality to expose inside DS.
Sorta. Since D|S isn't FOSS/GPL, they have to license the engine and modify it to taste, in accordance with the features they licensed, IIRC (been too damn long, so don't take the whole thing as gospel). The calls to the engine are close enough though so that you can actually use D|S with a stock 3Delight render engine and script-in a lot of the extra 'missing' functionality to that stock engine if you'd like.
==
Quote - Personally I think that when you're used to one particulair GUI, it's rather hard to learn and to appreciate another one.
Not really... I'm typing this on OSX. I use Windows at work. Windows 7 has recently gotten a lot like OSX in UI functionality, just as Poser 8 looks like it has recently gotten a lot of D|S functionality (P8 and D|S both point to Modo as their UI muse, so if you're cozy with that, you're ahead of everyone else).
Quote - But to stay one topic: the main reason I don't drop poser is the dynamic clothing
Dunno... Dynamic clothing/hair/whatever I couldn't give a flying (insert noun here) about. Too slow and clunky for my taste. OTOH, There are times when I prefer to use Poser (though joint editing is no longer one of them...)
bopperthijs posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 5:27 PM
*Dunno... Dynamic clothing/hair/whatever I couldn't give a flying (insert noun here) about. Too slow and clunky for my taste.
*It needs some time, but you can get great results of it that you can't get with conforming clothes. The folds in skirts and dresses are looking much more relalistic.
Especially when you use hybrid (both conforming and dynamic) clothing, which have the good sides of both of them. I hate the handles in conforming dresses, they never go the way I want them.
regards,
Bopper.
-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?
vincebagna posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 10:51 PM
I've tried both programs and i'm still not sure if we can compare them.
I mean, P8 use Indirect Lighting, DS3Adv has it too, though i haven't been able to use it because of the looonng render times with IDL in DS.
Butn DS3Adv has GI which does directional shadows. It's a plus as P8 can't.
The render times using GI are more than acceptable, faster than P8 IDL in fact. The 64 bits UI in DS is super stable and very responsive. The last three renders in my gallery are DS3adv renders and you can see DS made a good step beyond realism.
On the other side, i like P8 IDL too. Longer render times, yes, but different results. Also, it's brand new, expect some perfecting in near future.
Believable3D posted Tue, 18 August 2009 at 11:13 PM
Thanks for your comments, Vince. How is the artifacting compared to Poser? Is raytracing pretty reliable without artifacts?
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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
vincebagna posted Wed, 19 August 2009 at 2:44 AM
If your talking about artifacts using GI in DS3Adv, as you have control over biais parameter, you can deal it without any problem :) I find raytracing in DS excellent. I hope some more parameters will be added to the IDL system in P8 in the future.
wolf359 posted Wed, 19 August 2009 at 4:04 AM
Quote - I've tried both programs and i'm still not sure if we can compare them.
Butn DS3Adv has GI which does directional shadows. It's a plus as P8 can't.
The render times using GI are more than acceptable, faster than P8 IDL in fact. The 64 bits UI in DS is super stable and very responsive. The last three renders in my gallery are DS3adv renders and you can see DS made a good step beyond realism.
Hi Vince I just Checked your gallery
and those DS3 GI Renders Are far and Away better than any Image I have Seen users post from the P8 Render Engine.
Cheers
vincebagna posted Wed, 19 August 2009 at 4:39 AM
Wait till i post some P8 renders ;)
Believable3D posted Wed, 19 August 2009 at 8:34 AM
This is also DS3 Advanced: www-cache.daz3d.com/sections/galleries/artwork/292/46307.jpg
Well, just the girl, I presume. But nice work.
______________
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
lmckenzie posted Wed, 19 August 2009 at 10:19 AM
Hey Peng, you old Tux lover - what's your take on Win 7? I've just started using RealBasic so I may have to install Ubuntu to see if I can get an app running on it.
"The calls to the engine are close enough though so that you can actually use D|S with a stock 3Delight render engine." Yeah, someone has an app for DS that supposedly will allow transparent rendering on stock 3DL, one or two of the free engines and PRMan.
The main stumbling block for Poser users is indeed the UI. It's not arcane or difficult (try ZBrush or Blender), just different to what people are used to. It's much easier to switch to a different browser, word processor or probably even an OS as Peng says than a different 3D application. Only practice will overcome that. I'd say devote a month to using DS and avoid Poser as much as possible. It takes time to overcome the hand/eye/brain habits developed over years. Even if you plan to use both programs, you need to take the time to learn DS, and it's difficult to do that in fits and spurts. Once you're comfortable with it, your old Poser skills will still be there, like knowing two languages and you can switch back and forth.
I think that many people try on or the other of the two programs for a few days or even a few hours here and there and conclude that it's too weird and go back to what they're comfortable with. It's like going back to your ex after the first awkward date with someone new. Of course in 3D, polygamy is a good thing - not to knock those in happy ploygamist relationships of another nature -:)
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
Penguinisto posted Wed, 19 August 2009 at 1:59 PM
Quote - Hey Peng, you old Tux lover - what's your take on Win 7? I've just started using RealBasic so I may have to install Ubuntu to see if I can get an app running on it.
Believe it or not, I've been using it at work for awhile now (my PHB's at the new Post-Intel job drank the koolaid and asked for seconds... heh.)
It is more merciful on system resources than Vista, looks and smells a lot like a blend of OSX and KDE, but it does have some fairly neat little features. If you're doing Windows-only, it would be a toss-up between it and XP, IMHO (most the tools in CG/3D land are still quite happy with XP, and XP is still easier on resources, so...)
Quote - "The calls to the engine are close enough though so that you can actually use D|S with a stock 3Delight render engine." Yeah, someone has an app for DS that supposedly will allow transparent rendering on stock 3DL, one or two of the free engines and PRMan.
Cool! I'll have to hunt that down... been doing it the hard way for quite awhile now.
Quote - The main stumbling block for Poser users is indeed the UI. It's not arcane or difficult (try ZBrush or Blender), just different to what people are used to.
Yep. Personally, though I don't have it, I like that Poser is moving in the same direction - but I've always harbored a massive disgust for the works of Mr. Krause (his heart was in the right place, but his code is a nightmare...)
lmckenzie posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 3:52 AM
Here you go. I haven't tired it but it sounds interesting for those who the old days would have made ASCII art in hand coded Z80 assembler.
Renderizer DAZ Studio Plugin
"Support for commercial Pixar Photorealistic Renderman (PRMAN) renderer (https://renderman.pixar.com) version 13.5 or higher.
Support for 3Delight renderer (http://www.3delight.com) version 7.0 or higher. The free 3Delight version is also supported.
Support for free Pixie renderer (http://www.renderpixie.com) version 2.2.3 or higher.
Other renderman compliant renderers can be added if compatible"
www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/rendering/renderizer-daz-studio
I imagine Pixar will be selling a lot more licenses now :-)
"his heart was in the right place, but his code is a nightmare..."
Art follows it's own path, even if it is an infinite loop. I'm old fashioned enough to say 'what were you thinking SM, making your UI a browser control hosted Flex/Flash app?' Yeah, it's cross-platform and kool kidz but really, browsers should be reserved for their true purpose - accessing pr0n.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
Lucifer_The_Dark posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:39 AM
Why does DS insist on hiding my installed content behind a hundred button presses that lead to dead ends?
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
lmckenzie posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 5:10 AM
"Why does DS insist on hiding my installed content behind a hundred button presses that lead to dead ends?"
Not sure but possibly related to why Megan Fox hasn't shown up at my doorstep with a stripper pole and a kilo of weed. I've only used DS with a single (microscopic by today's apparent standards) runtime linked with no problems. Some of the DS specific stuff a takes a little looking maybe but the Poser stuff no.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
TrekkieGrrrl posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 5:32 AM
First I must admit I haven't used DS since.. what.. 2.0 or something.. ages ago, because I didn't like feeling like a stupid noob every time I had to as much as adjust an eyecolour L
But one thing I SORELY missed every time I gave DS a chance was Poser's Material Room. I really don't know why it isn't MUCH more applauded. In Poser, you can make all sorts of nifty materials without any maps or other clunkyness. And while I don't KNOW if DS has got an equivalent to that by now, it is what has been holding me away from DS. GI or not, if I can't make a decent wall/rug/window/whatever in the program.. then no thanks.
FREEBIES! | My Gallery | My Store | My FB | Tumblr |
You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:28 AM
Quote -
But one thing I SORELY missed every time I gave DS a chance was Poser's Material Room. I really don't know why it isn't MUCH more applauded. In Poser, DS. GI or not, if I can't make a decent wall/rug/window/whatever in the program.. then no thanks.
Because only advanced poser users like yourself are willing to delve into a node based Shader system.
the great majority of the user base is more comfortable with Click & apply mat poses.
But at any rate DS3 Has a node based shader mixing system that rival posers.
SHADER MIXER IN DS
Cheers
EClark1894 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:31 AM
Quote - It Depends on what you primarily do
DS3 advanced seems to have a more Stable/faster GI Engine & Content Library.
The figure Mixer is a superior feature over poser8DS3 has the "aniMate" plugin Which makes it Superior to poser if you need to quickly create some character animation.
the morph Follower is a nice feature.
but Poser8 Does have WW.For the $73 Dollar "platinum club" price
you may be better off with DS in the long run
IMHO.
I admit that I barely know D/S. Heh, I can't even find my content library much less figure out how to put anything else in it.
Plus, some of D/S's features don't even work on a Mac. And the fact that they're okay with releasing it like that speaks volumes to me as a Mac owner. D/S will NEVER be my program of choice.
MikeJ posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:42 AM
Yeah, that's what I had going on.
Seems to me though I once defeated DS's attempts to thwart me by using the "collect scene inventory" python script in Poser to save everything to one folder and then opening the pz3 in DS and browsing to that folder when it whined about not knowing where stuff was.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:45 AM
Quote -
I admit that I barely know D/S. Heh, I can't even find my content library much less figure out how to put anything else in it.
Plus, some of D/S's features don't even work on a Mac. And the fact that they're okay with releasing it like that speaks volumes to me as a Mac owner. D/S will NEVER be my program of choice.
Well the biggest features that are NOT OSX Compatible are 64 bit version of the plugin and the DS Cloth system.
they say the 64 bit compatibility is coming soon
but IMHO their "Cloth" system is a very limited as you can only use specially built
cloth items released by them and cannot "Clothify your own models& meshes.
which makes it useless in my opinion .
Not that I care either way as I use the world class cloth engine in Maxon Cinema4D R11.
Cheers
indigone posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:48 AM
I have them both, and perhaps it is because I now know Poser so much better, but I run into dead ends all the time with DS3A.
The meshes on clothing breaks up every time I pose a character. When I ask what I'm doing wrong I get "that happens sometimes in DS3A".
I find that clothes bulge funny in DS3A, again, "that happens sometimes"
I couldn't get a good alpha from DS3A, the characters had unworkable halos. "that happens sometimes".
As far as the shader goes, I'm going to go with trekkiegrrrl, I sorely miss the material room. Yes the shader mixer is .... ok, but you can only modify the DS basic shader. So essentially, you're starting from scratch building the nodes from there. It would be nice if you could start with, say, UberSurface and add an occlusion node. I'm sure this will change in the future, and would change if I used it more and got used to it, but ... wow, that seems like alot of work to just add an occlusion node.
Another thing I miss that no one seems to rave about is the ease of comparing renders in Poser. You have to open a new window in DS3A, and if you close the application, there isn't a cache.
I don't understand the scaling issues that Freak 4 has, and why Poser 8 doesn't work properly with them. I wish I understood what was wrong with Poser there.
I do like DS3A, and I'm trying to use it some.
Indi.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:50 AM
I have found that by occasionally saying yes to this Dialog at startup D/S finds All My content.
Cheers
MikeJ posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:52 AM
Well thanks wolf, maybe I'll check it out again one day. It's been a long while since the last time, probably at least a year.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:57 AM
Quote -
I don't understand the scaling issues that Freak 4 has, and why Poser 8 doesn't work properly with them. I wish I understood what was wrong with Poser there.
Indi.
They did publish a Disclaimer about the new "Freak 4" not being fully compatible with poser.
but honestly he is made for use in D/S so im not surprised.
Cheers
indigone posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 7:31 AM
Quote - > Quote -
I don't understand the scaling issues that Freak 4 has, and why Poser 8 doesn't work properly with them. I wish I understood what was wrong with Poser there.
Indi.
They did publish a Disclaimer about the new "Freak 4" not being fully compatible with poser.
but honestly he is made for use in D/S so im not surprised.Cheers
Yes, I know about the disclaimer. I was also part of the ninja squad "testing" freak 4. They told us numerous times that there were these "scaling issues" within Poser. I still would like to fully understand what those are so I can avoid them.
Indi.
Lucifer_The_Dark posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:03 AM
Quote - They did publish a Disclaimer about the new "Freak 4" not being fully compatible with poser.
but honestly he is made for use in D/S so im not surprised.Cheers
That's not good to hear as I was planning to get it at some point, now I don't think I'll bother at all unless they fix the Poser compatibility problems & I don't see it as a Smith Micro Poser problem, if Daz are selling something that's supposed to work in Poser THEY (daz) should make it work.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:14 AM
Well the reality is that he DAZ $$content market$$ seems to be doing quite well
with its D/S user base in fact thats why DAZ studio was created in the first place.
So Exclusive poser users need to accept that reality.
The DAZ business model is based on Selling content optimized for DAZ studio ,thats why there will always be a FREE base version of D/S and any side income they may be getting from exclusive poser loyalists is just extra
that they, ( DAZ inc), are clearly prepared to live without.
Cheers
3anson posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:27 AM
why should they? the problem is in the scaling functions, Poser is built on old code. if it does not scale properly it is up to the app's coding/development team to rewrite the code that deals with scaling to bring it up to modern software standards.
how many Poser content vendors made the effort to optimise their products for use in DS?
has Smith Micro made sure that their figures work properly in Studio?
indigone posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 10:13 AM
Quote - > Quote - They did publish a Disclaimer about the new "Freak 4" not being fully compatible with poser.
but honestly he is made for use in D/S so im not surprised.
Cheers
That's not good to hear as I was planning to get it at some point, now I don't think I'll bother at all unless they fix the Poser compatibility problems & I don't see it as a Smith Micro Poser problem, if Daz are selling something that's supposed to work in Poser THEY (daz) should make it work.
They won't fix it. Smith Micro probably will fix their scaling issues, (whatever that means).
I swear I don't get it though. I had no issues at all with Freak 4 in Poser. Maybe it's just when you want him to be a giant compared to V4 and M4, he won't grow. ...??...
Indi.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 10:21 AM
Quote - why should they? the problem is in the scaling functions, Poser is built on old code. ......
....has Smith Micro made sure that their figures work properly in Studio?
I dont know if they have.. nor do I care.
My point is that Those who Decide to Cling heavily
to poser forever, for whatever reason, will have to Face the reality that one of the top makers of poser content( DAZ inc) is eventually leaving poser behind.
I used poser since "Fractal Design" Poser2 I was NEVER pleased with its render engine and was always looking for a way to get my poser content into other apps.
with the advent of INTERPOSER PRO for Maxon Cinema4D
Any new version of poser after version 6 became utterly moot to me as all I need is a properly structured runtime to get fully functional poser figures assets working within C4D with its Advanced Render engine.
and the "Animate+ "non-linear character animation plugin for DS leaves posers Character animation tools in the long ignored Dust of the previous century where it still resides
It seems most Die hard poser users dont Care about advanced render features Like GI,SSS, Usable Toon shading or Character animation etc. and thats perfectly fine.
But DAZ is obviously moving forward in its development on all fronts And I see no logical reason for DAZ to let a trivial matter like poser "Compatibility" impede its progress.
Cheers
EClark1894 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 10:43 AM
Quote - > Quote - why should they? the problem is in the scaling functions, Poser is built on old code. ......
....has Smith Micro made sure that their figures work properly in Studio?
I dont know if they have.. nor do I care.
My point is that Those who Decide to Cling heavily
to poser forever, for whatever reason, will have to Face the reality that one of the top makers of poser content( DAZ inc) is eventually leaving poser behind.
I used poser since "Fractal Design" Poser2 I was NEVER pleased with its render engine and was always looking for a way to get my poser content into other apps.
with the advent of INTERPOSER PRO for Maxon Cinema4DAny new version of poser after version 6 became utterly moot to me as all I need is a properly structured runtime to get fully functional poser figures assets working within C4D with its Advanced Render engine.
and the "Animate+ "non-linear character animation plugin for DS leaves posers Character animation tools in the long ignored Dust of the previous century where it still resides
It seems most Die hard poser users dont Care about advanced render features Like GI,SSS, Usable Toon shading or Character animation etc. and thats perfectly fine.But DAZ is obviously moving forward in its development on all fronts And I see no logical reason for DAZ to let a trivial matter like poser "Compatibility" impede its progress.
Cheers
I wouldn't write Poser off as an also ran just yet, my online friend. the fact is DS is still most DAZ centric while the rest of the Poser community is Poser oriented. Any little crevices and gaps that DAZ is willing to leave open can and will surely be filled by third party operators who would like nothing more than an opportunity to dethrone DAZ.
Granted, DAZ has some of the best figures out there, but not the only figures out there (Hello Antonia).
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 11:02 AM
[quote
I wouldn't write Poser off as an also ran just yet, my online friend. the fact is DS is still most DAZ centric while the rest of the Poser community is Poser oriented. Any little crevices and gaps that DAZ is willing to leave open can and will surely be filled by third party operators who would like nothing more than an opportunity to dethrone DAZ.
Granted, DAZ has some of the best figures out there, but not the only figures out there (Hello Antonia).
Hi I am not "writing off" poser
there are still people using poser 4
I am pointing out that if poser disappeared today it would have very little Effect on the DAZ business model as they have successfully built their addicted/loyal DAZ content user base around Daz studio.
as far as a third party figure makers "dethroning"
Daz well I doubt we will see than any time soon as long as DAZ Offers a Free viable Male&Female and free program in which to render them and tons of club discounted content and other promotional schemes.
Cheers
bevans84 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 1:39 PM
I'd get Poser, but that's just me. :-)
EClark1894 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 1:40 PM
If Poser disappeared tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before DAZ stopped giving away D/S for free? Heck, they've pretty much already stopped. Only the basic renderer is free now. Everything else cost money.
I'd probably just hold on to whatever version of Poser I had left. Short of that, I'd probably just quit. As it is I hardly buy anything from DAZ anymore. The Platinum Club membership is actually starting to cost me money, because I so rarely buy anything anymore. Most of my content money for this year has been with Renderosity, CP and Poserworld.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 2:09 PM
Quote - If Poser disappeared tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before DAZ stopped giving away D/S for free? Heck, they've pretty much already stopped. Only the basic renderer is free now. Everything else cost money.
Sorry but I see no basis for your assumption.
The base D/S program will always be free
because it gets people hooked on $buying content$$ for it
just like Mikey & V-chick will always have a free base version.
Look at how many hopeful commercial"Challengers" to the dominance of Mikey&V-chick, have come along, made a little noise in the forums and quickly disappeared in the obscure wasteland of minimal to ZERO third party support. and yet Mikey& V-chick are still FREE to start.
I am no fan of the Daz figure line as I dont do humans much anyway.
But its Clearly an effective business model
especially for NEW customers to get started right way with ZERO initial monetary outlay and just like poser there will always be DAZ users who are fine with a basic render engine and Canned light sets.. both free &Bought from DAZ and third parties .
Cheers
lmckenzie posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 2:19 PM
I doubt that either one is going away in the forseeable future. If the economy hasn't killed 'em by now, they'll survive. Even is SM follows the usual course and drops Poser after a version or two, someone else will buy it and carry on. I'm also dubious of the notion that Daz has enough mindless thralls using DS to get too far away from Poser. And Wolf, while I appreciate your learned and erudite commentary (seriously not being sarcastic there), your thinly veiled contempt for gets a little old after the fourth or fifth serving. We get the picture you've happy with your arrangement, no need to go all Marie Antoinette on the peasants.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
wdupre posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 2:22 PM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - They did publish a Disclaimer about the new "Freak 4" not being fully compatible with poser.
but honestly he is made for use in D/S so im not surprised.
Cheers
That's not good to hear as I was planning to get it at some point, now I don't think I'll bother at all unless they fix the Poser compatibility problems & I don't see it as a Smith Micro Poser problem, if Daz are selling something that's supposed to work in Poser THEY (daz) should make it work.
They won't fix it. Smith Micro probably will fix their scaling issues, (whatever that means).
I swear I don't get it though. I had no issues at all with Freak 4 in Poser. Maybe it's just when you want him to be a giant compared to V4 and M4, he won't grow. ...??...Indi.
The problem is that while poser will scale the base figure ok, it has a problem scaling conformers, it basically ignores the centerpoint of joints in the scaling process so when you scale the figure up while it also scales the clothing it leaves the centerpoint where it was at the original scale so go to bend a joint and the clothing joint bends in a totally different place than it should. This is not something that DAZ can fix in the figure it is only something that the makers of poser can fix in their program, and if they do it will help not only with the freak 4 but will allow all figures to be scaled and have their clothing scale with them.
pjz99 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 2:44 PM
I strongly suspect this is a manifestation of the same rigging bug that shows up in SP3's feet e.g. Steve Cooper said that he wants to get this fixed, I'm hoping it gets done in the next SR. I don't know if they'll duplicate the fix in older versions of Poser than 8 though.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 2:50 PM
Quote - I'm also dubious of the notion that Daz has enough mindless thralls using DS to get too far away from Poser. And Wolf, while I appreciate your learned and erudite commentary (seriously not being sarcastic there), your thinly veiled contempt for gets a little old after the fourth or fifth serving. .
"Mindless thralls"??
I would not call them that they are loyal customers who NEVER
actually used poser and have no stake in its future
My opinion as to why " DAZ Freak4 is not fully functional in poser, is based on what can easily be observed in the DAZ forums & commercial efforts.
Poser and its users are not commercially important to DAZ inc .,the commercial enterprise, as they have their own Market paradigm now.
but if stating the obvious make me an elitist in your eyes then....oh well
Cheers
Tyger_purr posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 3:59 PM
Quote - Poser and its users are not commercially important to DAZ inc .,the commercial enterprise, as they have their own Market paradigm now.
I call Bull $chit.
As long as there is profit to be made from poser users, Daz will do it.
also keep in mind that most of the products sold on Daz are not made by Daz. as long as vendors see profit in Poser products, Daz has no real control, if they try to cut off poser they will loose there suppliers.
My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries
Tyger_purr posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:04 PM
if anything D|S and Poser are holding each other back by being so similar.
very few products take full advantage of their program's capabilities because content creators are trying to keep both customer bases buying a product that looks the same in both products.
My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries
EClark1894 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:20 PM
I disagree. I do think that as far as low-end apps go, D/S has begun to push Poser competitively. Of course it would be nice if D/S did more than 'ape" what Poser does and came up with some features of it's own.
jefsview posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:24 PM
Quote - if anything D|S and Poser are holding each other back by being so similar.
very few products take full advantage of their program's capabilities because content creators are trying to keep both customer bases buying a product that looks the same in both products.
DS3A and Poser 8 are actually starting to show some diversions. They both have different tools/options that differentiate from each other: Poser has the morph brush, but DS3A has a figure mixer; Ds3A can adapt skins between figures, but Poser still has the Python scripting that offers lots of possibilities. And other things. DS3A has caught up with Poser and is great competition. SM has shown a great deal more "hands on/quick fixes/listen to its user-base" than any other Poser developer ever has, so the future looks bright for both programs.
Daz isn't the only store out there. RDNA seems quite happy with selling items that are Poser-ONLY based, like Render Studio/Light Studio, Shaderworks python scripting and Poser-only shaders. D3D here at Renderosity and CP screates some awesome Poser-only add-ons as well. Sure, there will always be some Daz vendors that make DAZ only items, but many more will be compatible with both.
Except for the world economy, it's actually an exciting time for Poser and DS3A.
Now, if only Smith Micro would fix the scaling/conforming clothing bug in Poser... :) But then, I would have to have Poser 8, and because of the economics of things, I have to pass until later this year for my upgrade.
But, dang, I wish I had either one. Both have features I wish I had in my P7.
-- Jeff
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:26 PM
***"I call Bull $chit.
As long as there is profit to be made from poser users, Daz will do it.also keep in mind that most of the products sold on Daz are not made by Daz. as long as vendors see profit in Poser products, Daz has no real control, if they try to cut off poser they will loose there suppliers."
Hi Certainly you can see what a self contradictory statement that is. Correct DAZ Cannot control
what a non exclusive vendor chooses to do with regard to poser compatibility. So how would DAZ "lose suppliers"???
Any skilled merchant is free to support both DAZ studio and Poser regardless of weather DAZ chooses to or not with"Daz originals" like Freak4.
"if anything D|S and Poser are holding each other back by being so similar. very few products take full advantage of their program's capabilities because content creators are trying to keep both customer bases buying a product that looks the same in both products."
Very true sir They can NOT possibly continue to remain the same.
But as we see with Freak4 this %100 poser compatibilty apparently is no longer a major concern of DAZ.Inc.
I am not asserting that someone has to lead and someone has to follow but when last I looked it was Not DAZ promising a Fix for the DAZ Figure "scaling Issue" with poser... it was Smith Micro.
Cheers
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:37 PM
Quote - I disagree. I do think that as far as low-end apps go, D/S has begun to push Poser competitively. Of course it would be nice if D/S did more than 'ape" what Poser does and came up with some features of it's own.
One area where think Daz has innovated is Character animation
(Albeit trough a third party Dev team)
The nonlinear "aniblock" System in DAZ animated is as Good as the NLA motion clip system in Cinema4D and Autodesk Softimage .
and the figure mixer,morph follower and built in Map transfer are other areas where poser cant compete at the moment.
Cheers
3anson posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:39 PM
well i have used both Poser 5 and various versions of Studio and i find Studio far more intuitive to use. to me the Poser interface is very clunky and counterintuitive. the thing that is missing from Studio is a useful dynamic cloth facility. the Optitex dynamic cloth may be technically superior, but the files are huge and the cloth cannot be scaled.
(the Poser set-up is superior in that scaling seems to work.
plus you can usually take a conforming cloth into the cloth room and convert it to dynamic.)
plus Studio3 Advanced is already fully 64bit ( and not just the render engine )and only a few plug-ins are yet to be brought over. it has GI, IDL , comes with an HDR image converter for use in lightdomes ( IBL).
has a 'material room' ( shader mixer and shader builder ) i have no experience in these as yet, but by all accounts a lot of content developers have said it is easier to use than the Poser Material Room.
and with lights you can look through them to see exactly where they are aimed.
Tyger_purr posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:40 PM
Quote - Correct DAZ Cannot control what a non exclusive vendor chooses to do with regard to poser compatibility. So how would DAZ "lose suppliers"???
Any skilled merchant is free to support both DAZ studio and Poser regardless of weather DAZ chooses to or not with"Daz originals" like Freak4.
If (in theory) Daz were to produce a base figure that was not compatible with Poser, they would loose suppliers because the suppliers would most likely prefer to produce products for figures that can be used in both programs because it would give them a larger customer base.
My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 4:57 PM
Quote -
If (in theory) Daz were to produce a base figure that was not compatible with Poser, they would loose suppliers because the suppliers would most likely prefer to produce products for figures that can be used in both programs because it would give them a larger customer base.
Hi as a merchant myself i must say your theory this does not make any business sense...at all.
If ,for example, one had the skills to make a Daz Studio+Poser Compatible product for V4 in the first place.
Then suddenly Leaving the entire DAZ Content Market Due to some future "V5" not working in poser is commercial
Suicide.
You would be left with only poser users
as clients. while every other merchant cashed in on the New,predictable "V5" DAZ feeding frenzy as well as still producing poser content and competing with you there.
Cheers
pjz99 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 5:16 PM
Err, not to get in the middle of you two, but that's pretty much what the vendors actually do (pick one or the other app to give almost all support efforts to). There are very few vendors who try to do anything advanced with D|S materials, anything more than the most basic texture and specular (the place where they diverge the most, right now).
EClark1894 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:17 PM
EClark1894 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 6:19 PM
Quote - Err, not to get in the middle of you two, but that's pretty much what the vendors actually do (pick one or the other app to give almost all support efforts to). There are very few vendors who try to do anything advanced with D|S materials, anything more than the most basic texture and specular (the place where they diverge the most, right now).
Right off hand I can only name Animate and Optitex as producing DS only product.
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:09 PM
Quote - Wolf,
Do you realize that you just disagreed with someone and then stated the exact same point?
What point was that??
Cheers
wolf359 posted Thu, 20 August 2009 at 8:15 PM
Quote - Err, not to get in the middle of you two, but that's pretty much what the vendors actually do .
So you are saying a Daz compatible only Figure 'V7, M7" or whatever would be supported by the usual D/S vendors.
and there are no/Few Dual platform venders to lose anyway...
Sounds logical to me.
Cheers
coldrake posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 3:11 AM
Lucifer_The_Dark wrote:
Quote - Why does DS insist on hiding my installed content behind a hundred button presses that lead to dead ends?
It doesn't. Try learning how to use the program. There are a lot of great tutorials on how to use DAZ Studio over at DAZ.
**
EClark1894 wrote**:
Quote - If Poser disappeared tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before DAZ stopped giving away D/S for free? Heck, they've pretty much already stopped.
No, they haven't. Care to qualify that statement?
EClark1894 wrote:
Quote - Only the basic renderer is free now. Everything else cost money.
Only the basic renderer is free? :laugh: There's a whole lot more than just a basic renderer in the free version. :rolleyes: Man, you're waaaaaaay out of the loop.
EClark1894 wrote:
Quote - Of course it would be nice if D/S did more than 'ape" what Poser does and came up with some features of it's own.
It does. But of course you wouldn't know that, since you admit yourself that.......
EClark1894 wrote:
Quote - I admit that I barely know D/S. Heh, I can't even find my content library much less figure out how to put anything else in it.
Coldrake
P.S. You can find the content library by clicking on the Content tab.:biggrin:
lmckenzie posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 5:54 AM
Hey Wolfman, it's all good. I like your clear cut, incisive way of looking at things I just think that sometimes the tone gets in the way of the message - but that's just me. In this case, unless you're privy to sales figures for DS vs. Poser, know how many of the free DS downloads are actively being used or can divine the future, I don't see the basis for your view. Perhaps you are correct but I'd want to see more data points than one buggy figure to conclude an inexorable trend. I would expect Daz to implement features that show off their application to best advantage, even if it means producing two versions. I just don't expect them to produce a DS only 'V5' with no Poser counterpart. They've just started selling DS. It seems unlikely that its sales will reach a point in the near term that would allow them to write off Poser compatibility.
I see this as more of a Microsoft-Apple thing. I doubt that Microsoft gets a significant percentage of their Office revenue from the Mac version but they continue to support a dedicated Mac development program. They know that Mac users aren't going to switch to Windows and they'd rather have a bigger pie than a smaller one, as long as the Mac unit makes a profit. Now if they saw an opportunity to do a Netscape and kill off Poser that would be different, but Poser has proven to be nothing if not resilient. Until then, I would bet that Daz believes in the old saying, 'never leave money on the table.'
Are you a Heinlein fan BTW?
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
EClark1894 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 6:44 AM
Hey, Coldrake. I don't mind being proven wrong. But if you're going to do it, you need to do more than say "No, it isn't!" You need to tell me why I'm wrong.
I can only use DS 2. whatever. DS3 won't load on my computer. I can't figure it out really. All I can really find is the basic renderer, and at least that is staring me in the face. When I can find something to load from the library I literally stumbled upon, All I can do is render.
Can't animate anything. Can't use dynamic cloth, Can't set up a figure. Can't use wind force. Can't create hair.
Can't get rid of them stupid bounding boxes. That was one of the first things I ever figure out in Poser. I sat there for like two minutes clicking on a body part and wondering why I couldn't select it. I honestly can't remember what the problem was, but somehow I did figure it out.
Plus the fact, that I'm on a Mac so a couple of features aren't even made for me.
I don't care whether you use D/S or Poser, really. I DO care that I use Poser and frankly, if Poser were to go out of business tomorrow. I'd simply keep using the version I have now.
I know that there are people who love D/S. God bless 'em, more power to them.
I'm just not one of them.
Any program that frustrates me as much as DS does gets ignored until i feel the urge to be frustrated some more, so yeah, I barely know DS.
EClark1894 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 6:48 AM
I'm not going to participate in this thread or anymore like it. It's one of he reasons why I don't like hanging around the DAZ forums now. That Poser vs. DS schism. What's more I'm mad at myself for contributing to it.
pjz99 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 7:12 AM
Quote - So you are saying a Daz compatible only Figure 'V7, M7" or whatever would be supported by the usual D/S vendors.
and there are no/Few Dual platform venders to lose anyway...
You can choose to interpret it that way, and I can't stop you, but I'm saying the opposite: the more that the two apps diverge, the fewer content creators will bother to try to support both platforms. Right now, it's only a bit of a chore to set up DAZ|Studio materials. If you can live without advanced materials (all the free D|S users fall in this category) then you can use all content for both applications. If the two apps' content becomes completely incompatible, the amount of work the content maker has to do for a given item increases, possibly a lot, and many content makers won't do it. Everyone loses. Users, content makers, brokers like Rendo and DAZ.
wolf359 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 7:14 AM
Quote -
Are you a Heinlein fan BTW?
No sir IMHO Heinlein was a person who believed there should be a ruling class of intellectual elite
to lord over the Great
"unwashed Masses" Through Military Superiority.
His views seem to border on Facism.
Cheers
wolf359 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 7:26 AM
Quote -
If the two apps' content becomes completely incompatible, the amount of work the content maker has to do for a given item increases, possibly a lot, and many content makers won't do it. Everyone loses. Users, content makers, brokers like Rendo and DAZ.
Well thats one theory But does'nt Daz have an official SDK for third paryt developers??( not sure)
and DAZ has an inhouse content Dev team. So I personally think DAZ has Very little to lose from Diverging from poser compatibility which is inevitable if DAZ wants to move forward
and embrace modern standards.
just my opinion.
Cheers
MikeJ posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 8:05 AM
Quote -
Any program that frustrates me as much as DS does gets ignored until i feel the urge to be frustrated some more, so yeah, I barely know DS.
Well said.
That's about the way I felt about it as I watched the Windows uninstaller erase it from my machine last time. ;-)
Tyger_purr posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 8:11 AM
Quote - and DAZ has an inhouse content Dev team.
and what have they done lately?
I can't seem to find anything but the base figures and their initial "starter pack" with DAZ as the creator.
Even at that Freak 4 and Hiro 4 are credited to others.
My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries
wolf359 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 8:26 AM
Quote - > Quote - and DAZ has an inhouse content Dev team.
and what have they done lately?
I can't seem to find anything but the base figures and their initial "starter pack" with DAZ as the creator.
Even at that Freak 4 and Hiro 4 are credited to others.
Hi my point is that DAZ is not %100 percent dependent on outside contractors for content ( figures props etc.)
so as they theoreticly diverge from Poser compatibility the transition could be less harmful as they have inhouse dev teams as well as an official SDK ( Not Cheap!!)
But again Poser has Python which is free
So there is always potential for third party
Add ons for the poser app itself.
Cheers
Penguinisto posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 8:45 AM
Quote - I doubt that Microsoft gets a significant percentage of their Office revenue from the Mac version but they continue to support a dedicated Mac development program.
Actually, with Apple growing strong (they have 10% of the US market now, double what they had 3 years ago) and PC sales stagnant-to-dropping, Microsoft does make more than just a bit o' change from their Mac Business Unit. It's enough that Microsoft stopped farting around and are including a full Exchange/Outlook client in their upcoming version... something they've adamantly avoided up to now.
Even Microsoft has to aim for where the puck is going if it intends to survive long-term. ;)
Quote - Until then, I would bet that Daz believes in the old saying, 'never leave money on the table.'
Agreed.
3anson posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 8:51 AM
check your facts, Wolf359. the SDK is now free ( both of them, the little one which allows you to unlock certain things and write utility scripts and the main one which allows you to rewrite the actual code of the app, if you want, plus create plug-ins etc)
wolf359 posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 8:57 AM
Quote - check your facts, Wolf359. the SDK is now free ( both of them, the little one which allows you to unlock certain things and write utility scripts and the main one which allows you to rewrite the actual code of the app, if you want, plus create plug-ins etc)
Thats Good to hear !!!
I obviously googled to an Old link
Thanks for the Correct info
Cheers
3anson posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 9:47 AM
in case anyone who would like the SDK's but cannot find them, here's the link.
www.daz3d.com/i/software/daz_studio3/developer
Penguinisto posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 1:57 PM
Yep, the SDK is free - they were able to do that after Nokia/Trolltech removed head from arse and stopped their draconic licensing terms for Qt, which in turn allowed DAZ to make their SDK free.
Sivana posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 4:35 PM
Well, I´m mainly a Poser user and only had DAZ-Studio for Brice addon. But I also bought the Advanced Version when it came out. I think the advanced version is also a very good programe and I´m sure it will become better and better when time goes on.
But in the moment I still prefere Poser as I think it still has the better result after rendering.Of course, with Poser I also know how to handel something for best result, but I think this is becourse I start with Poser many years ago.
TZORG posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 6:37 PM
Quote - Even at that Freak 4 and Hiro 4 are credited to others.
They should probably rethink how they display those credits
It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it
Believable3D posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 7:14 PM
For the record: despite the title of this thread, I was never asking the question whether I should CHOOSE BETWEEN Poser 8 and Daz Studio Advanced. I have P8 and will use it. I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.
DAZ has emphatically NOT reduced what they give away for free. DS3 Free has more functionality than any previous version. And just because you have problems on your system doesn't mean DAZ isn't giving anything away anymore, any more than some people having problems with P8 means Smith Micro is not interested in selling Poser anymore. The DS situation is more like a car company that has a basic auto that they imrpove year by year, but then also come out with a ramped up more expensive model. In comparison to the pricier model, duh, the value-priced car lacks features. But that doesn't alter the fact that it itself continues to get better.
As for speculation on the future, who cares? None of us know squat about tomorrow, much less whether Poser or DS will be around fives years from now.
______________
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
Sivana posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 7:23 PM
So I try to give you a better answer as I use both: YES you can use DAZ Advanced too. It is worth to buy it that you can work with both programs in change ;-)
lmckenzie posted Fri, 21 August 2009 at 9:33 PM
"His views seem to border on Facism." Agreed.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
gagnonrich posted Thu, 27 August 2009 at 3:20 PM
Quote - I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.
I was also looking for more insight on the elements of DSA that would make it worth learning. The different interface still keeps me away. Without having a solid reason to learn it, I'm more likely to take the time to learn Hexagon modeling than a program that will only do things similar to Poser. That's not a knock against DSA--it's more the limits of my available free time. I'd rather spend it learning something completely new that I cannot do right now (modeling) than something that is only mildly different than what I already know.
As far as guessing at the future, my bet is that the two programs will remain reasonably compatible with figures and props--with DAZ having to make the most concessions since DS is the new kid on the block. DAZ has released very few figures and props that will only work in DS. As far as I can tell, DAZ releases more Bryce and Carrara-only props, that are unique to those programs, than similar DS-only content. Things can change, but it seems unlikely that the two products will become incompatible. DAZ Studio is picking up a lot of new users because it is free. Poser has the older user base and I'd guess still the larger one based on the percentages of free and paid content being made. I'm seeing more and more DS-only freebies, so it's clear that its user base is growing. Unless Poser is abandoned, or DS completely overtakes Poser in capabilities, it's not likely that new content will fully diverge in the future. At a minimum, both will still have some past version of compatibility.
My visual indexes of Poser
content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon
Magix-101 posted Wed, 23 September 2009 at 11:28 PM
Quote - 1. For the record: despite the title of this thread, I was never asking the question whether I should CHOOSE BETWEEN Poser 8 and Daz Studio Advanced. I have P8 and will use it. I basically wanted to know if I would find the power of DSA compelling enough to use it as well. But I'm well aware that threads take on a life of their own.
I dont have Poser 8...I am still using 7 right now....I have used Poser consistently since version 4 and have built content for Poser for nearly 10 years.
I have DSA as well...is it better than Poser? well IMO probably yes!!
Definitely in some areas...the 3 Delight renderer is a better renderer than the Firefly period, if someone tells you differently they havent learnt both renderers thoroughly.
The 3 Delight renderer is used in SI XSI and Maya and other hi end apps and is used for many movies (chronicles of Narnia...Superman returns, it is an incredibly accurate renderer...far more accurate than the Firefly renderer (but its a good idea to set the shading rate down to 0.2 or thereabouts to get the best results)
Now the Firefly is a great renderer for portraits and the like (and many users get stunning renders from it...that is a fact) but not that good for large scenes, I could write pages on the reason why...but I wont , suffice to say...you wont see the 3 Firefly renderer used in Maya or SI XSI or Max etc..
Thats reason enough to use DSA.
Then theres the subject of interface customization...Poser has set rooms...in DSA by learning how to customize the interface you can have as many rooms as you like dedicated to different tasks...like lighting, rigging, texturing etc.. not only that but each of these rooms can have a different tool set, and directory content location specified on the hard drive to load from.
What that means is you dont have to navigate from one content directory to another, it can be set to load from DS content as well as Poser content etc...each one from a different room...and screen layout etc...is all customizable in each room.
In this area its light years ahead of Poser...and even many DS users dont know about these features in DS.
The dynamic cloth in DSA although good is too exclusive IMO tho...I prefer the Poser dynamic cloth, and also I like the usabilty of the Poser shaders as well, so I wont be ditching Poser, but it is taking a back seat more and more.
To see some of the renders in DS I put a link to a city I recently built and rendered in DS...hit the thumb, then the magnifying glass to see a full view of each pic, then F11 to switch to full screen.
Andoria-City!
Cheers
Magix-101 posted Wed, 23 September 2009 at 11:39 PM
Quote -
I was also looking for more insight on the elements of DSA that would make it worth learning. The different interface still keeps me away.
It did me at first too ( as a long time Poser user)...BUT read my post above!
All you have to do is get used to the Activity Tabs (the equivalent of a Poser room) but about a hundred times more versatile.
Quote -
Without having a solid reason to learn it, I'm more likely to take the time to learn Hexagon modeling than a program that will only do things similar to Poser. That's not a knock against DSA--it's more the limits of my available free time. I'd rather spend it learning something completely new that I cannot do right now (modeling) than something that is only mildly different than what I already know.
DSA offers many things that compliment and empower a Poser user actually...I use both.
Personally I much prefer the 3 Delight renderer (as mentioned above) and I use DSA more than Poser now.
But I like both and DSA is not that hard to learn...4 or 5 hard days will get you well on the way.
As far as Hexagon goes...you can model anything in it.
I have used it since it was a beta by Eovia ...well before Daz bought it...its an awesome app, and many many users that use it...still prefer it over Modo, and many other modeling apps, its very powerful, yet easy to use....definitely worth learning.
Daz have neglected it somewhat and they cop a lot of flak on the forums about this...they have closed a few down LOL!!
But they are starting to get the message, this is one of the best modelers out there and they need to realize that and build on it.
Cheers
Hmann
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann/
http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/dd184/hjmann/Andoria-Night/
gagnonrich posted Thu, 24 September 2009 at 5:45 PM
You've made me more interested in giving DS a try, but even more to spend some time in Hexagon. I'm always amazed when a company spends a lot of money to buy a product only to essentially abandon it. Corel still upgrades Painter, but doesn't put much effort into promoting it--they seem to prefer Paintshop Pro. Corel has just about abandoned Kai's Power Tools, but it still has some excellent filters that have yet to be beat by any newer Photoshop Plug-in.
My visual indexes of Poser
content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon
Tucan-Tiki posted Fri, 25 September 2009 at 6:54 PM
I think DS is a better program, it allows you to create bryce like worlds in your renderings, it also has a interesting dynamic hair feature.
But there is a learning curve to DS as it is very different from poser in some ways, I also think it is alot slower but well worth the wait.
Believable3D posted Fri, 25 September 2009 at 7:00 PM
Huh? DS doesn't have dynamic hair....
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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
DCArt posted Fri, 25 September 2009 at 7:19 PM
Dale B posted Sat, 26 September 2009 at 5:25 AM
I'm using both; Poser is my main animation app, due to the very flexible dynamics, but the DS3 animation controls and Animate make it worth adding to the toolkit (and no Wolf, I haven't joined the dark side; I'm just snatching a cookie occasionally.... :P ). DS has gotten advanced enough to fit into my pipeline, so it gets the chance to prove its worth there. That is really what matters....if the tool does the job you need.
