I dont mean the models. This is just about processes. The whole change in freestuff got me to thinking (which is never good, right?) that the various sites seem almost obsessed these days with making things as complicated as possible for the users. Between the multiple hoops that Rosity was requiring and DAZ's inane "installers", what is it, folks? Is there something so disturbing about simplicity that everyone avoids it like the proverbial plague? Is ease becoming the H1N1 of the Poserverse?

Maybe I'm just geting old, but it's starting to seriously grate. And yes, I know, nothing will change, and we will be stuck with this nonsense until the various sites come up with even more convoluted ways of wasting our time.

And you kids, get off my lawn!

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Gosh, I guess that means I must be getting old too.... Everything seems more complicated to me than it needs to be anymore ;o).

reaches for the Geritol

Laurie

KISS principal works well  and usually means less hassel if people would use it

There is a wonderful quote by the Dalai Lama
"Simplicity is Mastery".

Unfortunately the constant complications provide jobs.
The complicated changes cause problems so someone has to come along and redesign things. It feeds upon itself.

cheerio
lululee

I hear this all the time in the dojo I go to: simple is best. I don't know about a lot of what's out there in the overall community anymore, mostly because everything seems to be locked down to pretty much just here and Daz, but with our end of things, we try to keep it as simple as possible. -Les

Things like the obstacle course that the new Freestuff area has become are a pain in the neck, but I sort of understand why it happened. All sorts of companies are under financial pressure and there's a real need, on their part, to monetize areas - especially web-based areas - that are free.

But we all know that there's no such thing as free. Being advertised at is, sadly, the price you have to pay to access all this 'free' stuff. Expect to see a lot more of it, in all sorts of places, over the coming months and years.

If the purpose of this site was to provide free forums, free galleries and access to free content, it is way too complicated. But it's a business, and businesses have to make money to survive, grow and prosper. With that in mind, Renderosity have got the balance about right, IMO.

---

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

You make things needlessly complicated when you don't want most people to use them or understand them.   

But things being complicated is nothing new, what is new is your inability to adapted to the new complications as you get older and your brain slows down.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

>> "what is new is your inability to adapted to the new complications as you get older"

Listen to me, you little whipper-snapper! I was unzipping when you were just a gleam in your daddy's eye! Why, I oughta take this cane and...

SQUIRREL!

:)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - But things being complicated is nothing new, what is new is your inability to adapted to the new complications as you get older and your brain slows down.

Winterclaw - please, go outside and open the hood of your car.  Do you recognize anything (other than perhaps the battery) there?  Do you feel that you could maintain that engine in any meaningful way?  I once had a 1964 Dodge Dart with a straight 6 engine.  I tore the entire engine apart, replaced the rings and gaskets, and put it all back together.  And it ran for another 50k miles or so before I sold it.  I could not possibly do that with my current vehicle.  Cafe, environmental and other standards have required such levels of engineering and problem solving that the basic internal combustion engine somewhere under all the controls and sensors is unrecognizable.

Complexity rises exponentially, and will continue to do so.  When dozens, or hundreds of people design and manufacture a product, as is now common, it becomes more and more difficult for an individual to truly master the use of said product.  This has not always been so, but will accelerate in the future.  Think of what our parents needed to know to get through an average day, then what we have had to master, and what our children will be called upon to understand implicitly, simply to navigate a normal day-to-day existence.

The only constant is change, and its velocity increases over time.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Attached Link: Is Computer Design a Substitute for Hands-on Experience?

an article by Jamie Hyneman of Mythbusters that is a good point on this. *

We ran into a problem like this on the show. I needed to change the battery on a car we were using to run some tests. Because the cooling system and other hardware were located over the battery, I had the choice of removing the right front wheel and inner fender or dismantling the cooling system to get to the battery. This wasn’t an exotic car that you might expect to have some impractical aspects. This was your average American midsize sedan. I decided to remove the wheel, and it took me about 10 times longer to replace the battery than it should have. I was astonished—the person who designed that car clearly had never changed a battery. The battery fit in CAD, and it fit in the car, but what was an elegant fit in the computer was a problem in the real world. I can just see the designer in front of his computer stuffing the car’s components into available spaces without a clue as to what he was doing.*

Kiebnor, I can definitely agree there. I have a 2004 Mazda 3 -- wonderful car, gives me 36/37 mpg. But I cannot change the stupid headlights on it! Not because I'm mechanically unable, but because theyve been engineered in in such a way that "only a trained mechanic" can actually get to the damn things.

And there's no reason for it. None. A little redesign of the front end would have taken care of the problem easily.

You're right: we permit complexity because we have no choice. It's not a question of adapting to a new way of doing things; I'm perfectly capable of that with the best of them. It's asking yourself: is the new way of doing things really necessary? Is there any reason why something that should be simple now requires a degree in computer science and mechanical engineering?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

oh and a personal note.

I have a Logitech MX Revolution mouse. it's a wonderful mouse and I love it.

today I get up and it's not charging. seems there's a problem with the Docking station. a very nice lady in the US was very helpful in trying to get me a replacement (you can't get certain parts in Canada for Logitech items. don't ask me why and she couldn't explain it either.)

In the end she couldn't just order the Dock. I have to put in a warranty claim. for a $10 part. so thanks to the 'system' it's going to cost something like $150-$250 in time, postage, staff wages etc, all for a simple $10 part.

madness.

oh to note. I could fix the dock myself, if I could get a 30ohm resistor. thing is, the nearest place that stocks that is in Quebec, so to far to drive. it's a 15cent piece... and the postage is $10.
AAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hi some things ,Computer technology related, are complex
because the function we demand from them .Military
fighter planes for example

But many things,Computer technology related, are overly complex simply because of BAD initial Design,or in the case of software , designed by technocratic engineers
who dont know or even care about the end user experience.

Here is a quote from another thread where some user were reporting  48-96 hour render times for one frame with the new IDL:
***"Plus for IDL, the Diffuse_Value should not ever be 1 - it should be around .8, but only for materials that are opaque. Water is completely transparent, and has NO diffuse reflection at all.
Remove the image that goes to Diffuse_Color altogether. 
Set Diffuse_Value = 0.
Remove the Reflect node.
Disconnect the other image from the Refract_Color channel.
Connect a Fresnel node to Refract_Color, and set Refract_Value = .9
Set the IOR on the Fresnel to 1.333.
Render without IDL and see how that looks.
Then if the bump map is not a JPEG or is huge, I'd open it in Photoshop, and save it as JPEG, no more than 1K in dimension.
Your render settings show Min Shading Rate = 0. That's really aggressive. Try test render with it at 1. If things look blotchy, try .5.
On the water prop, I'd set the water Min Shading Rate to 1, even if you need a better rate on the rest of the scene.
Render without IDL, and see how it looks. Then try with IDL again."

---

With all well deserved respect to this person(Bagginsbill) he is truly a master of his field
But this just makes my head hurt
Posers is still largely an application for "lay people"
and to a "lay person" this may as well be the formula
for grinding a custom lense for the hubble telescope.

On the matter of DAZ figures/ installers/powerloaders???
it has gotten a bit ridiculous.
the Fourth generation figure have almost become complete programs in and of themselves.

Cheers

 

My website

YouTube Channel

I've noticed the ShareCG has become to defacto place where many artists post their freebees. They link there from Rendo, but there are many items that never make it here. Perhaps the free site here has seen its better days, and the artists should simply adopt ShareCG is their actual gathering place.

Daz installers are a typical application installer and are meant to make it EASIER for an inexperianced user.  

 That doesn't prevent them from being a time-consuming pita for the rest of us.

Quote - Daz installers are a typical application installer and are meant to make it EASIER for an inexperianced user.  

LOL -- the only thing they do is automatically install whatever the item is into your runtime (unless you tell it otherwise). As a result, you have no idea what's gone where, which leads to a bloated, inefficient runtime that slows down the performance.

Further to the point, they're OPERATING SYSTEM SPECIFIC. Anything prior to a certain item number cant be opened in Mac OSX, and I've heard of similar issues with PC owners and Vista. And yet DAZ continues to sell the item in question, full knowing that the user cant open it, which means it has to be returned, thus wasting the customer's time and DAZ's time and the credit card company's time.

Yes, now they've finally put something on the product page to the effect of "May not open in your OS", which means they might as well put a bright red slash across the product page that says DONT BOTHER! Never mind that the older products are still useful; that's irrelevant compared to the convenience of the installer...

Is that supposed to make any sense whatsoever?

You know, somehow, we all got along without such helping hands for years. I have no idea how we managed to cope. :)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

In my mind, the worst thing about the DAZ installer is the fact that it obscures the product completely.  And, given the absurd naming convention, good luck figuring out what an old install file contains!

A zip file, on the other hand, contains all it's objects, textures, geometries, etc for all to see with any simple extract utility.  You can even read the readme file  WHENEVER YOU WANT TO without going to the vendor's website!!!  Amazingly convenient.

Just who is the DAZ installer convenient for?  If one cannot master IZarc or Winzip, I seriously doubt they can navigate the DS interface.

Just my $.02

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

yes, it's true:

• dan will never let daz change their installer because they feel poser users are too stupid to do it without an installer
• poser has evolved from a simple app on a floppy to manipulate a mannequin to a mid-level rendering app that now requires a good knowledge of optics/physics

They are trying to make things easier for the inexperienced user who does not have a clue how things work.
The problem is that they are making it much more tedious for the experienced user and they forget that every inexperienced user tends to get more experienced.

My favorite example is the hidden scale dials in the latest generation of DAZ figures

Nothing, and I mean nothing beats KISS.
More, I do not want to loose control. I like to "know" what goes where.

Just an example; I live in Belgium-Europe.
And Installed the new Windows 7RC1, nice, no probs.
test-test- OK, could work fine.
mail, OK, Internet OK, nice-nice

Then some one .... sends a pdf.
Oh, no problem, hey, there is a version9.1 of the reader.
look it up, OK, Install.
Sh....... Since then, I live in the UK.
The Install "changed" something, and every trime I open Internet Explorer, i am in Google UK.

That is what breaks my day.

KISS, I wanna be, and I wanna stay, in control.

I want to install another program. (no mames, It happened more then once)
Ok, go ahead.
What did the thing do? Witrhout even asking.
Yep, Yahoo toolbar . (goodmorning, goodevening, and . . . . . goodby) the programm too , of cource.

That is what I dislike. . . . . . . 
So just give me the raw material, Thanks.

KISS, nothing beats KISS.
And if they want something?
Well, at least they can ask. . . . last time I checked, I could read.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Somewhat OT but somewhat relevant too.
We just opened 2 new Fire Stations, our department maintains municple facilties and I am the lead for our department, so I am there during the training for the Fire Captains and our department.
Here is where it gets funny.

The new station is controlled through a virtual screen on the wall, really pretty cool. Everything is controlled through this screen, lights, bells, this part lights up, this part doesn't, etc. Just basic stuff, nothing that controls emergencies.
I ask the inane question of, "So when this screen/device goes belly up, how do we circumvent it?"
"You can't. It won't go bad."
"Excuse me, we can't go direct with a laptop or through a computer program interface, anything?"
"Nope, no way to control these parts other than through the screen interface. It won't go bad."
"Ahhh, I see."

Comitted to excellence through art.

...you're doomed.

 Gee, DE, who's the IT guy for you guys?   Guy Smiley?  "it won't fail"  :lol:  Right up there with "100% Waterproof" ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

When someone says things like "It's perfectly safe", "It won't fail" or "Don't worry, it won't tear", I run the other direction ;o).

Laurie

fast.

Yeah, I just rolled my eyes. All of the Captains looked at me smiling.
A mutual understanding of FUBAR was taking place.

It was the contractor who installed the system, not I.T.
Who knows, maybe it will work...:lol:

Comitted to excellence through art.

Bad design runs rampant in consumer products.   In the last few years I've
replaced most of my house's appliances and fixtures as the 1960's and 1970's
originals wore out.  In every case the new item is stupidly designed.  Surfaces
are rough instead of smooth, thus guaranteeing uncleanable dirt.  Tops are
rounded so you can't put anything on them.  Dust filters don't filter dust.   The
toilet seat slips sideways every time I sit on it, giving me an unpleasant jolt.
The window air conditioner has a large vent on top and no drainage holes on the
bottom, thus insuring that the case will hold stagnant water.   Knobs are
cone-shaped and smooth instead of cylindrical and serrated, making them
hard to turn.

All of these mistakes are completely avoidable, and many of them lead to
unhealthy situations or invite accidents.   I suppose there's a CAD-CAM
reason for them, or maybe they make Chinese manufacturing easier.

My python page
My ShareCG freebies

  the Daz installer puts a text file in ..ReadmesProductLists that lists what and where stuff got installed.   The Daz  installers could be better , like read a control file for default load values, but overall they aren't that bad.   I will concede that a group of zip files would be easier. 

The Daz installer content CAN be listed if needed. It requires a utility that isnt generally available though.  I wrote my own so I could catalog the installers.

I think that DAZ uses the installers cor their content because that makes them computer programs, which have specific legal protections under copyright law.

ShareCG is a great site, but they have their finances to worry about as well.  Up until about 2 years ago, artists got a commission for having their works hosted there, but that was apparently not sustainable.

As far as cars go, today's are sometimes a two edged sword.  My '02 Mazda has 67,000 miles and still has the original brakes and exhaust system, and except for some service bulletins has had only normal maintenance.  Yet, there is a  leaky valve cover gasket which I won't fix soon because replacing it requires removing the intake manifold.  Since this is also required for changing the spark plugs I'll probably change them together...at 100,000 miles.  Still, when I think of all of the carburators I rebuilt in my time, it seems like a good tradeoff.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Most people probably wouldn't be eager to give up fuel injection and go back to sticky butterfly valves, carburetor cleaner, chokes, etc. The newer technology is more fuel efficient, more reliable and having had at least one freaky carburetor fire, maybe safer. OTOH, if your injectors get clogged ane leave you by the side of the road, you can't pull of a hose, siphon gas out of the tank and pour a bit in the carb to get going again. I can't put put a weight on the tonearm of a CRDOM if it's skipping or use duct tape and WD-40 to fix most stuff anymore. If my TV goes out, I can't go down to the drugstore and test and replace dead tubes. Even if anyone fixes TVs anymore, unless it's new and expensive, it probably makes sense to chuck it out and get a new one. Great grampa probably mourned the passing of the buggy whip the same way. 

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

by the same argument we throw away far to much that fails for say 1 component, simply because it's not designed to be repaired, only replaced.. so we scrap the working rest....

Quote - The Daz installer content CAN be listed if needed. It requires a utility that isnt generally available though.  I wrote my own so I could catalog the installers.

Would you share it?

" The Daz installer content CAN be listed if needed. It requires a utility that isnt generally available though."

Well, see, there's rtwo problems right there. I dont know about you, but I learn by doing, not reading. It's one thing to see a list of where things have gone; it's quite another to know where things have gone because you put them there yourself. And let's face it: RTs are not rocket science. There's only so many folders. If you have to have your hand held in putting stuff in a half dozen folders, you have no business being anywhere near something as complex as a computer.

The second problem: a required utility that isnt generally available. You have to go somewhere else to get something you might need to see where you put stuff. Doesnt that sound just a bit... well, inane?Youd probably spend twice as much time going off and getting the utiity, downloading it, installing it, and then using it, than you would just learning right off the bat how your runtime works.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

*"by the same argument we throw away far to much that fails for say 1 component, simply because it's not designed to be repaired, only replaced.. so we scrap the working rest...." *

Absolutely. Modern technology is predicated on mass production and mass waste. In a few decades, the concept of a repairman will probably be gone. With solid state memory we will soon have a real PC on a a single chip. They'll package the whole thing in the cable you use to hook up a monitor - $29.95 - not repairable.

"Universal Extractor" will extract (not view) the contents of Daz installers as well as most archive and many other installers. Nothing to see, just files. They're not in the order they are actually installed, that is controlled by the install script. Handy though if you have a damaged installer and want to pull what you can out of it.

I don't like the extra overhead of the installers but I can't fault them for complexity. I "install" to a temp folder and then rename, relocate etc. to fit my own scheme. I then creare a rar of the stuff and delete the installer. I do the exact same thing with zip distributions. The installer takes a few seconds longer to start and paste the destination folder. I'm not installing a dozen items a day do so problem. OTOH, there are people who are not interested in the bowels of Poser's runtime. The click, it installs, the readme pops up and tells them where to locate the content and they get an uninstaller to boot. They should be banned from computing because they aren't preeks (Poser geeks) - you jest I know/hope. 

Seriously, the whole ridiculous Poser file system was fine back when Posette's grandmother was a teen teasing the P1 stickman, and there was no industry of 3rd party content. But, they should have revamped it years ago, grouped all item files together and used a database to track and link content - they you could truly put things where you wanted. They should have also cut a deal with Eon to use the Vue render engine in P5 instead of FireFly but don't get me started on what they should have done. In my day, we had real naked ladies to pose!

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - Here is a quote from another thread where some user were reporting  48-96 hour render times for one frame with the new IDL:
***"Plus for IDL, the Diffuse_Value should not ever be 1 - it should be around .8, but only for materials that are opaque. Water is completely transparent, and has NO diffuse reflection at all.
Remove the image that goes to Diffuse_Color altogether. 
Set Diffuse_Value = 0.
Remove the Reflect node.
Disconnect the other image from the Refract_Color channel.
Connect a Fresnel node to Refract_Color, and set Refract_Value = .9
Set the IOR on the Fresnel to 1.333.
Render without IDL and see how that looks.
Then if the bump map is not a JPEG or is huge, I'd open it in Photoshop, and save it as JPEG, no more than 1K in dimension.
Your render settings show Min Shading Rate = 0. That's really aggressive. Try test render with it at 1. If things look blotchy, try .5.
On the water prop, I'd set the water Min Shading Rate to 1, even if you need a better rate on the rest of the scene.
Render without IDL, and see how it looks. Then try with IDL again."

---

With all well deserved respect to this person(Bagginsbill) he is truly a master of his field
But this just makes my head hurt
Posers is still largely an application for "lay people"
and to a "lay person" this may as well be the formula
for grinding a custom lense for the hubble telescope.

To be charitable, we have here the confluence of three factors:

1. Nearly all (I would say at this time all, except some with the P8 content) materials are not designed with P8 in mind.
2. Nearly all water (or glass) props are optically incorrect. For clear water you pretty much need fresnel, for tinted water you either need additional nodes, or can fake it with reflection and refraction nodes (but note that this won't work well with P8). There are a lot of water props that just use reflection.
3. BB is very interested in optically correct materials, so he will try to get things as accurate as possible.

 >>>> In my day, we had real naked ladies to pose! <<<<<

(in best Dana Carvey voice) ... "AND WE LIKED IT!"

Quote - Most people probably wouldn't be eager to give up fuel injection and go back to sticky butterfly valves, carburetor cleaner, chokes, etc. The newer technology is more fuel efficient, more reliable and having had at least one freaky carburetor fire, maybe safer. OTOH, if your injectors get clogged ane leave you by the side of the road, you can't pull of a hose, siphon gas out of the tank and pour a bit in the carb to get going again. I can't put put a weight on the tonearm of a CRDOM if it's skipping or use duct tape and WD-40 to fix most stuff anymore. If my TV goes out, I can't go down to the drugstore and test and replace dead tubes. Even if anyone fixes TVs anymore, unless it's new and expensive, it probably makes sense to chuck it out and get a new one. Great grampa probably mourned the passing of the buggy whip the same way. 

So what you'r essentially saying is, it's okay to trash the entire thing when some small piece goes bad. The fuel injection goes out? Leave the car by the road and get another one. The speaker goes out on the wall-muonted TV? Hey, I was getting tired of that model anyway.

Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds? Seriously, bud. We're not talking buggy whips here. Yes, there have been some great things to come out of modern technology, but I would hardly put the DAZ installers or the (until recently) Rosity freestuff hoops in with them. Fuel injection makes my car run efficiently. What possible efficiency is there to an installer that cant even keep up with OS changes?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

The complexity of everything is rising exponentially to the number of baby boomers approaching retirement age ... speaking as one that falls into that category, software installers and renderers will eventually be the equivalent of a flashing "12:00" on the VCR.

DAZ Installers?  More and more clicks as they mature. Adobe Creative Suite?  almost 4GB of files and a gazillion options to check or uncheck when you install ... with little explanation of what those options do. 3D Rendering? Not just Poser, they're all complex ... as materials get more advanced there is a lot more to consider.  Answering machines ... don't get me started on answering machines.

And remotes. We have a basket full of remotes for TV, sound system, cable box, you name it. Bought ONE remote that controls everything and I can't figure out which darn buttons to push.

ARGH, I'm getting too old for this!

Quote - The complexity of everything is rising exponentially to the number of baby boomers approaching retirement age ... speaking as one that falls into that category, software installers and renderers will eventually be the equivalent of a flashing "12:00" on the VCR.

DAZ Installers?  More and more clicks as they mature. Adobe Creative Suite?  almost 4GB of files and a gazillion options to check or uncheck when you install ... with little explanation of what those options do. 3D Rendering? Not just Poser, they're all complex ... as materials get more advanced there is a lot more to consider.  Answering machines ... don't get me started on answering machines.

And remotes. We have a basket full of remotes for TV, sound system, cable box, you name it. Bought ONE remote that controls everything and I can't figure out which darn buttons to push.

ARGH, I'm getting too old for this!

LOL -- well, as an advancing quasi BB myself (I ws born on the cusp of the generation), I dont quite agree with all of that, but I will grant you there's a lot of BS in things like the CS, stuff that I'm sure is useful to someone somewhere -- just not in my studio, thanks very much.

Remotes? Sorry, I watch my TV online, so I dont need no steenkin' remote. See? There are some advantages to modern technology. :)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

 (I was only kidding ... LOL)

I love technology ... I was just speaking up for the KISS principle.  Sometimes what one person thinks is KISS is a kiss of death for someone else.

And, therein lies the problem .. person A thinks this is too complicated so they add an option that will make person B happy. Then person C comes along and thinks that there should be another option, so something else gets added.  And you end up with 15 screens of preference settings. LOL

Yes. :-) 

oh here comes the kicker on my mouse problems.

I can repair the docking station with a 30 ohm resistor.

now, to order that here : 30ohm resistor = 15cents. postage and packing $10.
to get it from  a mate in the UK : Resistor 15p, postage and packing 60p

insane....

"Seriously, bud. We're not talking buggy whips here." 

No, Bud is the other guy. I think maybe we are misunderstanding each other but hey, we're trying to communicate with electrons. Each example I gave illustrated the tradeoff between the new and the old. The fact is that most people would probably say that the benefits of the new outweigh the ability to repair the old - especially since DIY was never what the majority of people did anyway. From tubes to transistors to socketed ICs to surface mount each one was smaller, more reliable cheaper and yes, harder to repair/replace.

Nothing evil or sinister about that, it's just the way technology progresses. You can still buy some tube equipment if you want. Would you really want a motherboard crammed with socketed ICs just so you could replace one if it went out - even if it was bigger, more power hungry and less reliable? The only thing bad is the inherent waste - I saw a docu on the toxic hellholes in the far east where old Dells go to die. That requires changes in environmental policy though, not a return to 1950's electronic technology.

Ironically, fuel injection is actually becoming a moot point. Stick around another decade or so and the entire engine and powertrain is going to be one big black electric computer controlled box with no user servicible parts. If it goes out, replace it. Don't despair though, you'll still be able to use an environmentally friendly push mower to cut that lawn :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"you'll still be able to use an environmentally friendly push mower to cut that lawn"

... which I do.

My neighbour uses a riding mower, for a lawn barely large enough to accommodate it. He never gets it mowed properly and, to be blunt, looks like he could stand using a push mower a little more often. :)

No, I see your point. I dont think you see mine. I'm not saying all technological progress is bad. But a great deal of it is certainly misguided, with short-term gain for long-term pain. Yep, all those dead batteries have to go somewhere. And all those files you installed with the DAZ installer? Good luck in tracking everything down when you want to get rid of them because your RT is the size of the Hindenburg.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I think the current Freestuff has been changed to get more people into looking at the marketplace (I fess up; I've been to the Marketplace once, when I got a $5 coupon. But then I model a lot of the stuff I need...'nother can 'o worms...;) It's revenue enhancement for 'rosity...and probably all the other sites are going the same way.

A lot of stuff is set up to be thrown out; replacing batteries on palm devices is deliberately set up to cost as much as a new unit. Made my job (fixing things) much easier, but it sure put a damper on future sales where I worked....;)

Once, in an HP class, we techs asked about the design process. Marketing appeal was the first consideration (does it look pretty?), cost of manufacturing I think was #2, and what we wanted (ease of repair) was #5...probably hasn't changed much.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Well, not to bump this back up again, but tonight I find yet another example of perfectly unnecessary complexity.

Fool that I am, I go to DAZ tonight to buy some of the older stuff before they pull it from their inventory. One of the items I got was the Hiro 3 Ultrabodysuit.

So I try to run the installer. It asks me to locate my Poser 7.

I do so.

It then says "The required file cannot be found." and stops the installation. It doesnt, of course, tell me what the bloody hell it's looking for.

So I go to the product page. Nothing there, of course.

Product wiki? Useless.

So here I have a product that's asking for something because DAZ's FREAKING INANE INSTALLERS CANT BE BOTHERED TO JUST UNPACK THE DAMN THING. NOPE, WE HAVE TO MAKE AN ENTIRE WAGNERIAN OPERA OUT OF THE PROCESS.

Sheesh.

Oh yeah. Installers. Wave of the freaking future, all because some users cant be bothered to learn what's going on under the hood and because DAZ is so freaking scared someone might... I dont know... actually want to use their stupid products.

Oh yeah. This is really sharp business process.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

It's looking for Poser.exe, and if you have Poser Pro it's named PoserPro.exe which is why the DAZ installer can't find it.

Easiest way around it is to choose "DAZ Studio" when you install the content, that way it won't look for Poser.exe and will install all the files (including DAZ Studio materials)

(And, for what it's worth ... zip files are so much easier. LOL)

I'll give it another shot. Thanks.

What a moronic system.....

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Poser 7 IS Called Poser.exe though. I have a feeling it's looking for a copy of Hiro somewhere in the runtime you're installing to.

I thought the same thing. I have all of my Hiro stuff in an external RT, so I back up and I try to direct it there.

Nope.

So apparently it wants to have Hiro installed in the main RT before it'll deign to unpack this.

Would someone please explain the logic behind this? It's an add-on product, not part of H3 itself. Just install and be done with it!

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I still think it might be related to Poser.exe ... and that you have your Hiro stuff in an external runtime seems to confirm that. Did you try the DAZ Studio install option?

Yep. It's definitely looking for Hiro 3, which is fine except it would be nice IF THE INSTALLER TOLD YOU AS SUCH.

I dont want to deal with it tonight. I'll try again tomorrow, and if it sitll doesnt work, screw it, I'll take the seven bucks and change back. Nothing is worth this kind of hassle.

But again... is this kind of complexity worth it? The seven items I bought come from the full run of DAZ's magic installers, and what I found funny/ridiculous is that the early ones? Worked like a charm: three clicks and you're done.

Now? "Do you want an uninstaller?" "Have you read the EULA?" "Is Vicky 4 the ABSOLUTE BEST OR WHAT?" I gather if you answer the last one "No", it stops everything and waits for you to come to your senses.

EDIT TO ADD: Yeah, I know, I should be posting this at the DAZ forum. That's, uh, not possible right now. LOL

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - ... Now? "Do you want an uninstaller?" "Have you read the EULA?" "Is Vicky 4 the ABSOLUTE BEST OR WHAT?" I gather if you answer the last one "No", it stops everything and waits for you to come to your senses.

They'd be wating an awfully long time for me....lol. ;o)

Quote - EDIT TO ADD: Yeah, I know, I should be posting this at the DAZ forum. That's, uh, not possible right now. LOL

Not unless you're wearing your flame-proof underwear ;o).

Laurie

Technology is often a crock IMHO.  I still drive a 1970 Lincoln Mark3. 18 feet long weighs in at 4900 lbs, has a 460 cid for power. As big and heavy as it is it still gets 20 mpg. I can do all the work on it myself and it has never in 30 years left me walking.

I also have a  newer dodge PU. weighs much less and has a smaller engine (a318 cid I forget what the liter displacement is but its a 318). Has so much junk on it you have to hook it up to special equipment to work on it. It gets about 13 MPG and spends most of the time in the shop.

The bluebook on the old lincoln is now worth much more than the PU as well.

Go figure.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Not surprising that the value on the Lincoln is higher, the PU is now a FIAT !!

Klebnor von Stutgart

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Quote -
I have a Logitech MX Revolution mouse. it's a wonderful mouse and I love it.

How long have you had it?
I love those. or rather, I loved those. They're great until the LMB goes haywire and starts double-clicking instead of single clicking. The first one did that after 6 months. I figured I just got a defective one. The second one lasted maybe 8 months. I figured maybe I was just unlucky. The third one lasted about 8 months. I decided never again.
Each one of them did the exact same thing as I mentioned above - the LMB begins double-clicking instead of single clicking. You can find many reports of that by Googling it.

I never was really happy with it for 3D work, since a lot of programs use the scroll wheel as a MMB. For as complex and "advanced" as that mouse is, you couldn't make it do something simple like have the scroll wheel act as a middle mouse button. I found a hacked driver that allowed for that, but it caused other problems.

So I also had my $15.00 Microsoft optical mouse plugged in for when I needed a MMB.

That "simple" Microsoft 2-button optical mouse with the normal and "simple" scroll wheel has kept going along, day after day, and has watched $300.00+ worth of Logitech technology come and go and die unceremoniously in the trash can. I now have three Microsoft Optical  mousies, for $45.00 from NewEgg, one for each computer I have, and I will never be suckered into any "advanced" mouse by Logitech again.

I'm not going to quote anybody for this, but yeah, that DAZ installer is idiotic.
It also causes error messages in Windows 7: "This program may not have installed correctly", which will pop up after the installer is finished. I haven't seen any other installers do that, certainly not any modern ones.. And the DAZ installer isn't even that old, certainly nowhere near as old as Deep Paint 3D, which I just installed the other day and which doesn't cause that error message.

Of course you can easily enough defeat any runtime stupidity it wants to foist upon you by installing to a temp folder first, which is what I do, but I can't see a single reason why they can't just use a zip file, along with a ReadMe of where to put everything.

Yeah I know, it's for the n00bs. But honestly, I don't care. Let them RTFM. Let them either learn or have a hissy fit cryfest. After they finish crying about not knowing what to do with the files, they'll figure it out and they'll ultimately be better off for it.

That's just for the normal stuff from their store.

Don't even get me started on the V4 and M4 installers. They reached levels of idiocy far beyond anything I would have thought possible with that maneuver. Whoever at DAZ thought that was a good idea needs a good slapping around.

>> " Of course you can easily enough defeat any runtime stupidity it wants to foist upon you by installing to a temp folder first"

That's my usual SOP, because I unpack and archive so I dont get caught in their stupid OS-specific lunacy. But not this time: didnt work. Not the Hiro 3 Ultrabodysuit: it's special. It's different. It's wandering around, looking for something like a lost puppy on the side of the road, and it wont tell me what the bloody blue blazes it wants. I tried again this morning with Hiro installed in my main runtime. Still not working.

Gah. Just not worth it.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

If I were you I would just download the PC version and send the file to someone with a PC who can unpack it and send you the runtime as a zip.
Not exactly legal I suppose but in that case I'd just say to hell with that - screw 'em. Of course I think if you told the guy to delete the files afterward you'd be in the clear. Not like they're gonna prosecute someone for that anyway.

I wonder if I'm gonna get a warning for the above. ;-)

 I just ordered it, and will download Mac and PC now. I'm curious to see what's going on, and maybe I can shed some light.

Quote - If I were you I would just download the PC version and send the file to someone with a PC who can unpack it and send you the runtime as a zip.
Not exactly legal I suppose but in that case I'd just say to hell with that - screw 'em. Of course I think if you told the guy to delete the files afterward you'd be in the clear. Not like they're gonna prosecute someone for that anyway.

I wonder if I'm gonna get a warning for the above. ;-)

Big no-no, I'm thinkin' ;o). Unless the other person ALSO owned it. That would be the only way I can see it would be on the up and up ;o). Tis better just not to rub Daz the wrong way...lol.

Laurie

Quote -

Big no-no, I'm thinkin' ;o). Unless the other person ALSO owned it. That would be the only way I can see it would be on the up and up ;o). Tis better just not to rub Daz the wrong way...lol.

Laurie

That may very well be, but I think I'd do it and send DAZ an email telling them I did it and why. If they thought their files were being passed around because people couldn't simply use the thing they bought without help from an outside source, they might rethink their plan a little quicker.

 Just to confirm ... I am having the same problem, Sean. There's something wrong with this installer, don't know what it's looking for. I created a separate runtime folder, put Hiro 3 Base in it, and then tried to install the body suit. No go.

aha! The installer's hosed? Never had that problem with a Daz installer before, but I guess there's a first time for everything ;o).

Laurie

 Not sure if it's hosed (and it's the first time I've used a Mac installer for Poser content). But it doesn't seem to want to install, it's looking for a particular file that isn't identified.

Sounds like something that DAZ will know the answer to, or how to get it installed.

I'm surprised the people who quote the Dalai Lama and who go to dojos don't understand the nature of simplicity.  Simplicity is not within a thing or process, it's within your perception.

Okay, how's this: DAZ installers are simply idiotic. :)

Yes, yes, I know: be at one with the installer. The installer is the product is the installer. The installation process should not be mastered, for no one can master the howling wind or the laughing brook. Rather, see the installer as that part of your ki, serene and peaceful. You are it and it is you.

God, I studied too much comparative religion in seminary.....

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

 LMAO

I have asked Daz about my utility to list the contents of the installer. I feel I need their OK because it may be considered reverse engineering which is a big no-no in programming circles.

This is what mine looks like when run .

Is there really a demand for this sort of thing ?

Considering how large and out of control runtimes can get? OH, yes, there is a need, if not a vocal demand for, things like that....... 

If it's executable, and not a python script, then yes I could use something like that.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.