I love the result you get with P8's new Indirect Light, but no more for me. Waiting over 7 hours for the final version of my image to render and then having the FireFly render engine to crash while the image is almost finished, does it for me. The text version (half-size) rendered fine, but I had to wait for ages. The full-size ( 2000x1200 ) crashed when the images was done for about 85%. No more IDL, I'm through with it. Great results, but the absurd long render times and waiting for hours just to experience a crash, isn't what I do call fun.

The non-IDL version renders in less then an hour, IDL version took over 7 hours and wasn't even finished when it crashed. Besides the crashes, the time difference is just too much to even seriously consider using it on a regular basis. It was fun as long as it lasted, but I will not touch this new feature of P8 anymore. I'm sure it works fine with some boxes and spheres or a one figure scene rendered screen size, but when one wants print quality large renders or more complex scenes (and the one I did wasn't even that complex), the render times will be a very serious issue. Computer used: Core2Due P8600 (2.4Ghz) with 4GB RAM.

Shame, another P8 feature going down the drain.

Just had to vent..... not being able to use a pc for a whole day and then ending up with nothing, isn't fun! Image attached was reduced in size to be able to attach it.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Here's the non-IDL version, original 2000x12000 (reduced in size for attachment), rendered in less then an hour, no problems at all.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Did you first ensure that all AO (Ambient Occlusion) nodes were removed. You do not need them with indirect lighting, they'll just slow the rendering down.

More details at:-
http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?p=470058

From what BagginsBill has hinted, you'll love it again after SR1 :)

One reason its taking you so long is because your using Terradome with a AtmoSphere , the Atmosphere part of Terradome is a large transparent object and transparent things really slow IDL down , Remove the Atmosphere and I bet it renders alot faster :)

I have a Core2Duo 3ghz with 4 Gb ram and I am doing IDL renders in a hour or two depending on whats in the scene , but put afew objects with transparent parts or a Atmosphere ect and It can take 6 hours just for the IDL calcultaions .

are those trees all geometry?

are you even aware that the good GI engines take hours to render out trees?

fact is that you have a very complicated scenes.

(Screenshot of the new GT-5 GAME !)

"...fact is that you have a very complicated scenes"

Nope. aeilkema is perfectly right.

Fact is that Poser (And Studio) are WAY behind the curve of what's possible today.

One more...

If these can be rendered in realtime at a fraction of a second, I don't see why I should wait for hours to do a single still picture in Poser or Studio.

Not to mention that except perhaps for Stonemason's scenes, all those available Poser/Studio "Worlds", "Environments" and whatever else you have look a lot less realistic in general than these GAME screenshots !

(No postwork. Poser 8 render. Eight infinite lights)

If you forget about all those fancy three digit light settings and go back to the basics, render speeds in Poser 8 are at least somewhat reasonable.

The above render took 2 minutes on a 4GB dual-core machine.

Game Engine and Render engine are different things. A lot of that texturing you could get in the OpenGL Preview (not the specularity and shadows, obvs.) NOW if you take the time to do it.

Also, the realism of "environments" aren't due to Poser. If you want realistic environments, you either make them yourself, or you find the really real looking ones and pay (sometimes a lot) for them.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

One more, same lights, showing some SKIN ! Still just 2 minutes from start to finish.

:-)

Nope, there is no difference.

You have a mesh, you have a texture. You have shaders.
You render it, and the result is a picture.
The picture either looks like a photograph or not.

Game environments and meshes used to be very simplistic but not any more.

Those cars for examply are more accurate and detailed than 99% of the Poser cars available.

If a GAME screenshot looks more photorealistic than an hour long Poser/Studio render, then something is wrong IMO.

You can get realism out of Poser. It's not the programs fault that users haven't worked at it.

Look, we've got this program, capable of creating really great renders...the majority of users want it to make their products pretty (either stuff they made or stuff they bought) or to make big-boobed women. This is not news, and shouldn't be news, to anyone in the community. How do you get them interested in making better art, when it takes longer? We're in a society that values the instant gratification over the long, hard work. Poser the PROGRAM is capable of some really great stuff. It's up to the users to do it.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - Nope, there is no difference.

Yes, actually, there is.

Game Engines are designed to showcase the game in real-time. This means, designers have to use everything they know to make the game look it's best. It's not all render engine you're seeing. You're seeing hi-res texturing, high-performance lighting, and a lot of teamwork. You're comparing a 20 person team with a 1-person team. You're comparing years of personal research and learning and development with Point And Click and Render. You're going to get different results.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

See, I'm not completely UNHAPPY with Poser 8.
(Or any of it's predecessors or Studio)

All I'm saying is:
Sorry, dear Poser coders, But lights that take hours to render are a waste of time IMVHO.

There is no way to achieve PERFECT PHOTOREALISM in Poser (Or Studio) anyway.
I leave this for the big boys playing with MAYA or MAX.

So I rather stick with perhaps 95% (photo)realism and don't frustrate myself everytime I wait for an render to finsh.

The game also uses all kinds of tricks, exploiting known factors that are not going to change.

For example, the mountains in the background are always in the background. So you do not need to calculate atmospheric haze based on distance - it is baked in. The lighting on the mountains or buildings is also known and a constant, so it is baked in. They don't have to run a full GI calculation to find out what colors and brightness are the sky, clouds, ground, other buildings nearby. All of those things are hard-coded into the scenes they've created for each venue.

The lighting on the cars is also known with a few small variables thrown in that can be taken care of quickly. When the car is on the road, the ambient lighting from sky and ground is totally pre-calculated and set up as an IBL for the car. The occlusion shadows under the car do not have to be generalized - they can be pre-calculated in a few shadow maps which are interpolated, in case the car is flying off the ground.

Reflections of the scenery (mostly sky) are baked into a reflection map, which can be quickly looked up to generate nice reflections on the car surfaces without using ray-tracing. I haven't seen the game up close, but they can also handle some car-to-car reflection using some neat tricks that are far less general than dealing with a V4 crawling over the car.

There's tons of stuff like that. If you added up all the stuff rendered off-line and baked into just one venue, you're probably talking about a render time of 1000 hours.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Thank you for explaining it better than I can, BB ;)

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According to a Wikipedia article

Quote - In an April 2008 interview, game creator Kazunori Yamauchi revealed that 150 people had worked on Gran Turismo 5 for four years, with all of Polyphony Digital's 120 employees working on GT5, and the game costing 50 times more to develop than 1997's Gran Turismo.

750 man-years!!! Assuming a fully burdened average cost for one full-time employee is $120K, a reasonable estimate for the cost of development is $90 million. I'm pretty sure (not certain) that's more than the total revenue of all versions of Poser and all products on CP combined for all of history.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

plus a game engine is designed to do that same thing over and over and over. so that's all it has to to. so they optimise it like crazy just to do that and nothing else.

that game engine for example can't on the fly render an octopus. without tweaking the engine and the model, you wouldn't get that far.

Quote - Did you first ensure that all AO (Ambient Occlusion) nodes were removed. You do not need them with indirect lighting, they'll just slow the rendering down.

More details at:-
http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?p=470058

I'll give that a try!

Quote - are those trees all geometry?

are you even aware that the good GI engines take hours to render out trees?

fact is that you have a very complicated scenes.

Not on Vue...... I can do way more complex scenes in Vue rendering in GI and it still takes less then an hour. Besides, that's not a complicated scene..... 2 trees, 1 figure, a landscape and some grass and that's called complicated, I don't think so.

IDL is needlessly slow.

Quote - From what BagginsBill has hinted, you'll love it again after SR1 :) [/quote

Hope so. once it's released I'll try it again, for now I'm done with it.

Quote - One reason its taking you so long is because your using Terradome with a AtmoSphere , the Atmosphere part of Terradome is a large transparent object and transparent things really slow IDL down , Remove the Atmosphere and I bet it renders alot faster :)

I have a Core2Duo 3ghz with 4 Gb ram and I am doing IDL renders in a hour or two depending on whats in the scene , but put afew objects with transparent parts or a Atmosphere ect and It can take 6 hours just for the IDL calcultaions .

Remove the atmosphere will spoil the scene. If transparency is an issue then SM needs to deal with that and resolve the issues, since transparency is used a lot in Poser.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Yes, Bagginsbill.

And that's exactly the same tricks I'm using myself for years to get the most out of the low-end machines I owned so far.
Because EFFICIENCY is also a quality feature.

I'd be happy to pay 100$ a piece for an environment setting for Poser, baked on shaders or not, as long as the results look as realistic as those game screenshots and the whole shebang would render in less than 5 min.

It's the results that count, and I bet that 99% of the average Poser users would be a lot more happy with the realism of a "game optimized" scene like those above instead of having to wait for hours to get "accurate" highlights on an otherwise anatomically completely inaccurate Vicky.

Ok, I've checked my render settings and the AO nodes and settings and my settings were as adviced, so that's not the issue.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - Yes, Bagginsbill.

And that's exactly the same tricks I'm using myself for years to get the most out of the low-end machines I owned so far.
Because EFFICIENCY is also a quality feature.

I'd be happy to pay 100$ a piece for an environment setting for Poser, baked on shaders or not, as long as the results look as realistic as those game screenshots and the whole shebang would render in less than 5 min.

It's the results that count, and I bet that 99% of the average Poser users would be a lot more happy with the realism of a "game optimized" scene like those above instead of having to wait for hours to get "accurate" highlights on an otherwise anatomically completely inaccurate Vicky.

Then all it takes is to learn how they do it.

Some of the top vendors here and at DAZ have some experience in the game design world. I know that one (LukeA here) has written books on texturing for games (we don't sell them here, but they ARE at Amazon, search for Luke Ahearn). Looking for information isn't as hard as you think, it's just that you have to make an effort.

And, again, you're comparing hundreds of man-hours against point-and-click effort. Apples and Steak comparison, man. Not even the same ballpark. If you want good results, it's going to take you time. It took the game designers a lot of time to get the game to where it is, why are you expecting the same with no effort?

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Please don't show a bunch of renders with no-shadow infinite lites and say "that's just as good as GI". Also, the game images you're showing, those mountains in the background look great because THEY'RE A PHOTOGRAPH. Of course the photographed elements look realistic!

My Freebies

Quote - Ok, I've checked my render settings and the AO nodes and settings and my settings were as adviced, so that's not the issue.

I'm going to go out on a limb (bad pun, bad pun!), but have you tried eliminating one of the trees? They have a LOT of little limbs, and that is probably killing your render time with the calculations.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Eight infinite lights. One with shadows. No fancy skin shaders. Baked on highlights.
Works for me for quite some time. :-)

Sorry, but it's NOT the IDL, IBL and whatever else new toy you have that makes a render realistic.

It's accurate meshes and good textures. (Based on actual photographs and not on procedurals)

You might be able to add the last 0.001% of "realism" with a fancy light set and skin shader, but only if the foundation (The mesh and the textures) are right.
But if the last 0.001% in realism takes 1000 times longer to render, I'm sure a lot of people would say "Thanks, but NO thanks", just like I do. Lol.

My point:
Focus on BETTER, more ACCURATE models with BETTER textures.
(Like Stonemason does)
Make Poser MORE EFFICIENT instead of dreaming up stuff that's completely unpractical for most people in the end.

Stop trying to emulate the big boys (Max and MAYA) and instead have a good hard look at what the gaming industry does.

But I guess that would be way too easy for some people here. ;-)

I think I agree that the long render time is from the giant transparency layers that implement the atmospheric effect. Even Poser 7 and Poser Pro are slow when using ray-traced shadows with those things.

Aeilkema, I totally agree with you that Poser needs to improve how it deals with transparency. It's just too common. I discussed it with SM at length, and they explained the technical limitations to me. I have to confess that because I have unbounded confidence in my ability to do the impossible, to do what 99.99% of engineers say is incredibly difficult, I asked them to give me the source code and I'd fix it. They haven't taken me up on that offer yet. ;-)

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - You might be able to add the last 0.001% of "realism" with a fancy light set and skin shader, but only if the foundation (The mesh and the textures) are right.

I hate to break this to you, but every pic you've ever posted that I can remember has pretty terrible lighting and shadows. They do not look remotely realistic. I expect you'll go ballistic again like the last time I told you this.

edit: I encourage you to post some of your best images on cgSociety for open critique on your lighting technique.

My Freebies

Quote - I think I agree that the long render time is from the giant transparency layers that implement the atmospheric effect. Even Poser 7 and Poser Pro are slow when using ray-traced shadows with those things.

Aeilkema, I totally agree with you that Poser needs to improve how it deals with transparency. It's just too common. I discussed it with SM at length, and they explained the technical limitations to me. I have to confess that because I have unbounded confidence in my ability to do the impossible, to do what 99.99% of engineers say is incredibly difficult, I asked them to give me the source code and I'd fix it. They haven't taken me up on that offer yet. ;-)

I do hope it get's fixed, whoever does it :-)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

JP,

There's no use complaining that a general purpose software renderer, and the content people make for it, is a general purpose software renderer.

There are some beautiful images (and movies!) that can be made with inexpensive NVidia hardware and the free Gelato hybrid hardware/software renderer. This is a general purpose renderer, not a game engine that needs everything pre-baked and limited.

http://www.nvidia.com/page/gz_home.html

Go get it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

No, pjz99, why should I ?

See, when I remember how you constanty blew a fuse back when I said that V4 has tons of problems, and now you basically say the exact same after working with her for some time, I'm pretty sure there will be a time until you reckognize that I'm perfectly right...again.

So if spending hours over hours fiddling around with Poser 8's new light settings trying to find the perfect shadow is your idea of fun, I really have no intention to stop you from wasting your time.

Me, I rather refine my sculpts and rigs and occasonally render them using my ultra-fast-yet-highly-accurate homemade light set.

:-)

Quote - No, pjz99, why should I ?

See, when I remember how you constanty blew a fuse back when I said that V4 has tons of problems, and now you basically say the exact same after working with her for some time, I'm pretty sure there will be a time until you reckognize that I'm perfectly right...again.

So if spending hours over hours fiddling around with Poser 8's new light settings trying to find the perfect shadow is your idea of fun, I really have no intention to stop you from wasting your time.

Me, I rather refine my sculpts and rigs and occasonally render them using my ultra-fast-yet-highly-accurate homemade light set.

:-)

The point that he's making is you're saying "See, this is realism!" when it's not. It's realistic-like.
Like I said earlier, if you can't spare the time to get the work out that you're expecting, don't blame the software because you don't want to take the time. You get out of the program what you put into it.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I'm sorry, JenX, but so far NONE of the renders I've seen using Poser 8's new lights look even remotely PHOTOREALISTIC to me.
And neither did any of the IBL and ambient occlusion renders that were all the rage when Poser 6 appeared.
Or any of the gazillion node skin shaders that were a "must have" not so long ago.

But REALISM in Poserdome is such a rare animal....

As long as most people (and vendors, and shops) claim that V4 is realistic just because she looks remotely humanoid, trying to discuss realism is really a waste of time.

I already spent thousands of hours resculpting and rerigging meshes because noone else was interrested in creating truly accurate humans for Poser, so I guess I know pretty well what I can blame and what not.

My point (again):

High quality meshes + simple but fast lights are more realistic (and more fun) than the usual poor quality content rendered with highly sophisticated lights.

Ok, so if you've got these oh-so-awesome real rescultped and re-rigged meshes that you've spent thousands of hours on, where are the renders? Your gallery is empty, you don't have a site link, and the images you post to the forum aren't the amazing and outstanding feats you're claiming.

Sorry, I'm not buying that your way is better, simply because I can't see proof. The proof you're showing is that, basically AO is good enough for you. You actually don't NEED 8 lights. Period. 8 lights is not only overkill, it's not even realistic lighting. Some of the best lighting rigs I've seen and worked with have maybe 3 lights.

You're saying your way is awesome, we're saying "show me". The proof is in the pictures.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - See, when I remember how you constanty blew a fuse back when I said that V4 has tons of problems, and now you basically say the exact same after working with her for some time, I'm pretty sure there will be a time until you reckognize that I'm perfectly right...again.

Actually many of your points were stupid and poorly investigated ("magnets in the figure can't be made visible" "can't render more than 1 figure" "JCM is a complete mystery"). What made me frequently irritated at you was that, like now, you say things that are stupid and poorly investigated. You can choose to remember things how you like, but I do still encourage you to brag up your lighting skills over at cgSociety for an abrupt reality check.

My Freebies

Seriously, how you got back onto your "V4 sucks" track is baffling. Render Posette with terrible lighting and come back.

My Freebies

Quote - I'm sorry, JenX, but so far NONE of the renders I've seen using Poser 8's new lights look even remotely PHOTOREALISTIC to me.
...
Or any of the gazillion node skin shaders that were a "must have" not so long ago.

This is a ridiculous statement. Not even "remotely" photorealistic? Either you believe the word "remotely" means something other than what I think it means, or you're being completely disingenuous here.

This is one of odf's test renders of Antonia. (Click for full size)

Not "perfectly" realistic, but to say this isn't even remotely realistic is only possible if you're blind or just trying to stir up trouble. This is a test render - no effort to refine or tweak. It's a basic 3-light set with IBL. The reason it doesn't look like a plastic mannequin is ENTIRELY because of the shaders - my VSS shaders. Your assertion is ridiculous.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

i use DS3A , and i try to get as close to photographic realism as possible in some character studies, but i do not think that a reasonably low-end rendering system like Poser OR DS3 can hope to get the same quality of 'realism' as those very high end softwares used on major workstations and more to the point, huge renderfarms.
BUT, both can do a very good job with a combination of HQ textures, shaders and a good light rig.
again, BUT, we have to expect very long render times.
a friend of mine is working on some Disney animation stuff and even with her software and VERY high end workstation, a single frame can take quite a few hours to render out.

whilst it looks very nice and will look even better to indiscriminate vidgame players, there are some rendering errors in joepub's first img in this thread:

car shadows are neutral grey (r=g=b) even tho the scene appears to have a blue sky
car shadows are not motion-blurred
sides of cars don't reflect anything
guard rail/barrier casts no shadow
spectators cast no shadows

since this means there's no GI nor proper reflection/shadow calculations, even poser 6 or 7 could do a better job of it IMVHO.

"The reason it doesn't look like a plastic mannequin is ENTIRELY because of the shaders - my VSS shaders. Your assertion is ridiculous."

The only reason Antonia looks "realistic" is because she is "sculpted" realistic.

Antonia has a fantastic rig and very realistic sculpt, unlike V4.

A real woman will still look like a real woman even if you take a picture of her at night under a street lantern with a cell phone cam.
A Barbie doll will still look like a Barbie doll even if you take a photograph of it using high end studio equipment.

Sorry Bagginsbill, but your shaders are not as important as you think they might be.

They might add the last 5%, but the major factor wether a mesh appears to be realistic or not is the sculpting.

Ok, this "mine is bigger" contest is getting old. Are you willing to show a render, or not?

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Sorry, Miss Nancy, but "speed" (= efficiency) is a major factor if you want to evaluate quality.

A car that can go 100mph for half the mpg than a car that can go 110mph is IMVHO the "better" car.

So I think the AVERAGE Poser user would be better off with more accurate and optimized meshes that render also faster, than trying to sqeeze out the last ounce of realism at any cost.

not so good as BB's example,
forum.daz3d.com/postimages/origimage_1_1870028.jpg www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/full.php
www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/full.php

thefantasiesattic.net/attic/cpg/displayimage.php

last one is V3

"Ok, this "mine is bigger" contest is getting old. Are you willing to show a render, or not?"

Atually, no.

You can see one of my sculpts in one of my recent posts.
(Search for HANA).
If that's not enough to illustrate what I'm talking about, I'm sorry.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3499621&ebot_calc_page#message_3499621

...you mean this?

I'm going to stick with my previous line. Realistic-ish. Not true realism. Not even close.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I should actually clarify. I'm not calling your work bad. I'm just saying that it's not photorealistic, at least not in the sense that you're claiming. To say that working on settings, shaders and lighting aren't as important as modelling and rigging is a fallacy. They are ALL important. Most 3D work you see out there that is spectacular is a group effort. Someone modelled, someone rigged, someone lit, someone textured, someone modified shaders, someone rendered. To think that it's a quick process, and proclaim that it should be, couldn't be further from the truth. Realism takes time in the high-end apps, too.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Hey she's right, Joe Public.
Go ask them at CGTalk, and see what they say.

To go with your barbie doll analogy, you can model a completely totally anatomically correct, perfect human and take a picture of it in a studio and if the materials used aren't as equally accurate, it just doesn't look real.

Digital artists struggle constantly with making human renders look right, even with the best physical models possible. The reason is our brains know the subtle differences between surfaces, based on thier physical properties. The hard part is making a bunch of polygons look convincing, and shape has little to do with it. Surface properties have nearly everything to do with it.

JenX, you miss my point:

99% of the renders made in Poser are V4 "as is".
Maybe a dial spun, maybe even a "real" custom sculpted "face".

But V4, without a thorough resculpt and re-rig, has tons of anatomical problems.

So, slapping on some 4000 x 4000 "elite" textures on her, buying (or using a free) 100+ node shaders and using a high end IDL light set, will do exactly ZERO to make her more realistic.
It will cost a lot of $$$ (Good for Rendo and DAZ, I admit) waste a lot of render time and cause a lot of harddrive wear.

I wouldn't say a peep if V4 or (any other readily available mesh) would have a 100% realistic base sculpt and matching rig out of the box and those 4000 X 4000 textures, those fancy shaders and high tech lights would take her from "almost perfect" to ABSOLUTELY BL**DY PERFECT.

But even IF we had such a widely supported realistic mesh, is it really smart to spend so much energy on trying to push Poser to it's limits ?

I know my sculpting is quite realistic. And if I'd use fancy shaders and hi tech lights I think I could even end up with a render that wouldn't be immediately recognizeable as a Poser render.

But do I want that ?
Nope, I'm happy with the 90 to 95% of realism I have now and enjoy my 2 minute renders.

I have nice shadows, a nicely lit skin, and I still can do a lot of variations with my "old fashioned" light set.

And I'm pretty sure most other Poser users would rather have a more realistic figure that also renders faster than constantly having to fight with node settings, running out of RAM because of oversized textures or waiting for hours for a render to finish without being closer to "actual" realism anyway, because the figures anatomical problems negate any improvements they made.

And those few who really, really want to be cutting edge would at least have a solid foundation to start with.

So, basically, you agree with me, but want to make it look like you disagree and I'm wrong.

shrug

I'm used to it. I can dig it.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - I have nice shadows, a nicely lit skin, and I still can do a lot of variations with my "old fashioned" light set.

Your point seems to be "GI is dumb, I don't like it". Your shadows are not "nice", they're aggressively fake and so is your lighting. If you like aggressively fake, that's wonderful and you should never ever hit that bad old "Indirect Lighting" checkbox again. Ignoring the blabbing about V4 (no one else was even talking about that).

My Freebies

What's wrong with just using normal maps and displacement maps?

You start adding so much detail to a model and you're going to bog down, not to mention have all kinds of problems with bending the topology a hi res model necessitates.

That's why the pros, the people who make the movies and such, use very LO-res, UN-detailed models with very tight topology, in conjunction with normal maps and displacement maps and subdivision surfaces.

They would never finish anything using models with 2,000,000 polygons.

@JenX : If you want to see it that way. My point is what's best for the average Poser user:
A "down to earth" realism that is fast and fun (like in games), or that kind of "technogeek cutting edge brainwanking" that folks here seem to prefer ?

@MikeJ:
"...shape has little to do with it."

Sorry. 100% wrong.
If you want to create an accurate model of something, either virtual or physical, correct reference is a must.
Because if the shape is wrong, everything else is, too.

Apollo failed because he tried to rely solely on displacement maps for body detail.
I also want my meshes to look great in preview, too, because that's how I look at them 99% of the time.
HANA for example has 45.000 polys.
High res body + lo res head = enough polys for the body detail but still lighter than your average DAZ mesh.
The only time I'd use displacement maps were if I needed accurate veins or for a real old face with lots of folds.

Polygons are cheap these days, textures and other stuff costs ram.
(Like V4's crazy magnet rig for example)

Look at those cars in the game renders I posted.
They are laser scanned to get the shape perfectly right and have more "built in" detail than many Poser cars.

you can go out of your way to optimize for poser users, 99.999% of them are still going to do things the way they've always been doing it. New stuff = To be feared. You're not going to change that.

What everyone else in this thread is worried about achieving is realism. Which is Model+Maps+Lighting+PATIENCE.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote -
Sorry. 100% wrong.
If you want to create an accurate model of something, either virtual or physical, correct reference is a must.
Because if the shape is wrong, everything else is, too.

You think I don't know that? I would think you'd be able to read that in the intended context and realize I meant the shape-to-surfacing ratio of realism. Surfacing is the more important thing than shape.

Look at a simple object like, say a simple drinking glass. I could model a totally accurate, 100% perfectly shaped drinking glass and then spend hours trying to get the light and the surface data just right to make it look like a photo instead of a CG picture of a glass that looks wrong.

Granted, a drinking glass is a much simpler shape, but it's the same idea.

Quote -
Polygons are cheap these days, textures and other stuff costs ram.

That may very well be, but I think the thousands of highly realistic CG human renders that some of the pros "out there" make using very lo res figures pretty much proves my point that shape is a lesser concern than lighting and surface data.
And they use normal maps and displacement maps to get their "shape", which is partly surface data as well.

I don't want to argue with you about this though, because you are wrong, completely wrong, and this is wasting my time.

You're not wrong that shape is important, but when you start saying that shape is the MORE important thing... well I guess you know better than all the professionals out there.

Quote - @JenX : If you want to see it that way. My point is what's best for the average Poser user:
A "down to earth" realism that is fast and fun (like in games), or that kind of "technogeek cutting edge brainwanking" that folks here seem to prefer ?

I hope they don't dumb down Poser to the average user. I'm tired of everything being made 'simple' for those who find thinking too difficult. If I want game rendering, I'll buy a game (or a game engine... how about you look up licensing costs).

Quote -
Look at those cars in the game renders I posted.
They are laser scanned to get the shape perfectly right and have more "built in" detail than many Poser cars.

Cars are a much easier to get to look realistic than human figures -- mesh and materials. Even then, they still need materials tweaked to look real.

".... and this is wasting my time."

Indeed.

Quote - ......and this is wasting my time.

The only thing that's wasting my time at the moment, is the horrible slow IDL rendering time.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I never thought I would learn so much about game rendering when I clicked on this post.

It really puts things into perspective when you take into consideration how long it takes to develop a game and how many people to make it in comparison with a long Poser render time. I'll take my long render times in poser any day. especially now that I have Poser 8. At least I know I won't be doing any over night rendering times anymore.

But thanks for getting in detail with this post because I definitely learned a few things that I didn't know before.

Frederick
Poser By Design

Quote - ...but so far NONE of the renders I've seen using Poser 8's new lights look even remotely PHOTOREALISTIC to me.

Maybe true, but I think this turned out okay...
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1939667

Photorealistic? Heck no, but with only one light, IDL did a pretty good job here.

i7 6800 (6 core/12 thread), 24 GB RAM, 1 gtx 1080 ti (8GB Vram) + 1 Titan X (12GB Vram), PP11, Octane/Poser plugin, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Oh, and a wiener dog!

lets face it. no P8 render is going to look photorealistic to this guy.

Interesting thread. My first Poser 8 render attached, at less than an hour to render I can't think of any reason to complain.

Not quite sure if this is off topic, considering where the discussion is going, but I was wondering how you guys get the lights to reflect off the figure.

Looking at the impressive game screencaps on the first page, here. (Haven't read the more recent posts; this is probably completely OT on page 3. My apologies. ) I've toyed with 3D game programming recently, and much of it seems to involve the use of pre-compiled shaders. Which are a major PITA to create. Hoo boy. I'll take Poser's shader system any day.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote - > Quote - ...but so far NONE of the renders I've seen using Poser 8's new lights look even remotely PHOTOREALISTIC to me.

Maybe true, but I think this turned out okay...
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1939667

Photorealistic? Heck no, but with only one light, IDL did a pretty good job here.

That's what I like about the IDL. Before you would have had to plaster lights everywhere. By the way very nice picture.

Frederick
Poser By Design

Quote - That's what I like about the IDL. Before you would have had to plaster lights everywhere. By the way very nice picture.

Frederick
Poser By Design

Thanks! :)

i7 6800 (6 core/12 thread), 24 GB RAM, 1 gtx 1080 ti (8GB Vram) + 1 Titan X (12GB Vram), PP11, Octane/Poser plugin, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Oh, and a wiener dog!

Wow, three pages now, and I haven't actually learned anything.

Yawn.

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - Wow, three pages now, and I haven't actually learned anything.

Yawn.

lmk

Hmmmm...actually, I didn't take this as a learning thread...its more of a venting/discussion thread. There are other IDL threads that someone can learn something on.

i7 6800 (6 core/12 thread), 24 GB RAM, 1 gtx 1080 ti (8GB Vram) + 1 Titan X (12GB Vram), PP11, Octane/Poser plugin, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Oh, and a wiener dog!

I think he just wanted everyone to know he disapproves of the thread content. ;-)

Fuck. I disaprove of 98% of this forum.

LOL Join the fucking club. None of us are going to be perfectly happy with any collection of discussions. If I were king I would bonk a lot of fucking heads for wasting my fucking time.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Personally I'm not trying to get a render that's indistinguishable from a photograph, not with a $250 program, that I actually paid a lot less for with promotional discounts. And even if Poser is able to get 95% of the way to photo-realism, I'm not willing to dedicate my computer to a single render for multiple days to accomplish it.

I don't WANT to have a photograph, honestly. I actually prefer that the image be recognizable as a constructed fantasy that evolved out of my head. Not a mannequin-like Posette with no shaders or shadows, but a high-quality (to me) image that renders in 10-20 minutes at full size. That I can do with Poser and some inexpensive models, textures and lighting.

What a trained 3D artist with a $1K rendering program and $20K computer station might think of it, I could give a flying (f-word that BB is allowed to use here)

Quote - Interesting thread. My first Poser 8 render attached, at less than an hour to render I can't think of any reason to complain.

Wow, you have to teach me how to get that beautiful render. What settings do you use?

Quote -

Wow, you have to teach me how to get that beautiful render. What settings do you use?

Not to pick on you or anything, so please don't get that idea. I'm just using your post as an example, so I don't look like I'm just spouting this off for no reason. :-)

But although umbongo6 could tell you the settings used, it wouldn't likely do you much good unless you had the exact scene to use it all on.

The thing about GI is that everything in your scene matters and contributes to the final output, and the same can be said for shaders.
Everything is dependent upon scene size, object size, shaders, shadows, light intensity... and the list goes on.
And the same thing can be said for the shaders themselves, which in one situation might look great, and in another situation absolutely terrible. Again, hugely dependent on all the other scene conditions.

This is why so many people have so much trouble with shaders and now, with GI too. There is no one size fits all, there is no easy way. There are no light sets, backdrops, cameras, shaders, textures, or anything else that will guarantee a perfect scene. Not just Poser, but the same goes for all 3D apps.
And a lot of times, presets won't even get you close to what you want.

The people who do well with it are the people who understand it.
For a lot of Poser users, GI is a whole new world. They don't understand it and that's evidenced through dozens of threads like this one. You have people like BB here and pjz99 and a few others trying to help people understand what it's all about, but it doesn't seem to be widely sinking in, and I still see the same comments over and over again... Poser's GI is broken - this SUX!

And it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Sooner or later, merchants will be making GI light sets and other things "guaranteeing" beautiful and... "realistic"... renders, and people will buy those and encounter more problems they don't understand.

But eventually people will have to really start thinking about things if they want to get good results. With GI, you really can't just expect it to work without either a whole lot of experimenting or knowing ahead of time how to work it into each individual scene.

And it's not by far just Poser either. Even with the mighty Mental Ray, you can have your GI set up perfectly where everything looks great in all parts of your scene, but just move a light slightly of alter a setting or two, and your whole scene goes to hell. But not if you know how to compensate, then you adjust other appropriate settings at the same time and maintain the quality and accuracy.
And unlike real world objects which stay the same and always interact "correctly" with light, surfaces in 3D need to be adjusted constantly to compensate for different lighting conditions, camera angles, and other things.

People using GI in Poser are going to have to learn these things or they will always be fighting it, always be struggling.

Just my .04...

Many of us are starting to get a feel for some of the settings available that influence GI/IDL, but not nearly all of them. The "Poser Manuel" is about as clear as mud on many of these settings, and those settings that are only exposed to Python scripts are not covered at all.

Looking through Wikies about obscure lighting principles and properties is only so useful. Some are over the head of the average user, and they apply only so well. Poser often implements things in a non-standard way.

Reading these forums is great, but a document, giving understandable descriptions of the terms and settings, with some attention to their interactions, would help those of us who are willing to turn dials and tweak settings. I have notes scattered everywhere, and can rarely find that little hint that I am looking for. Yes, if it were available, I would buy the book.

Of course, every one is waiting for SR1. I hope that some tutorials will follow. I already feel that Poser 8 is a vast improvement over its predecessors.

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Mike you are 100% correct.

i think the gamma correction threads are proof of this. BB posted tons i mean toooooooooons of info about GC. and people who are from the US acted like he explained quantum physics.quantum physics.
i am from europe and i dont understand everything english. and i get GC. why? because i was reading.it doesnt matter if you just want one click renders.

fact is that someoen decided to buy a 3D software. so he must know that he will have to understand something. i tryed making matte paintings in photoshop. i am not good at this. but i at least tryed. i didnt spend the first 2 hours making the whole new york city for christ sake.

yes you are right. it wont get better.

Quote - For a lot of Poser users, GI is a whole new world. They don't understand it and that's evidenced through dozens of threads like this one. You have people like BB here and pjz99 and a few others trying to help people understand what it's all about, but it doesn't seem to be widely sinking in, and I still see the same comments over and over again... Poser's GI is broken - this SUX!

That's not how the thread started out. The only reason I'm not using it anymore is because of the horrible long rendering times. I'm getting excellent results, but whenever a render takes more then 4 hours, it's not worth it for me. I've got better things then waiting for a render to finish. 7 hours is way too much for me and on top of it a crash. Poser IDL isn't broken, it just lags a lot.

Most people (even in this thread) who claim it renders fast, have either done small size renders, very basic scenes or a scene with one figure in it, without even a background, so IDL isn't fully utilized. When doing serious work (print ready images) or complex outdoor scenes, for which both IDL should be really used, it's not a valid option. Results are great, but I do not see myself waiting for 24 hours to finish a 4000x4000 render for print (with all the risk of a crash).

Keep in mind that Poser 8 is still mainly geared at the amateur and semi-pro market and in those market the newest pc's and rendering networks aren't too common. I'm sure IDL wil render well on a 8 core or more machine, but that's not the user base that P8 is geared at. most of us have a dual core or perhaps a quad core and I don't want to feed the poser users using a single core still, I'll be bankrupt soon. SM should keep it's market in view and realize most of us aren't too happy with way too long rendering times.

I'm hoping that SR1 will speed up things, but I'm not getting my hopes too high. Since IDL is one of the very few new features in P8, this issue must have come up in testing. It's not that the testers had tons of new features to look at, so this hardly can have been overlooked. Makes one wonder why it wasn't dealt with in the first place. I'm not expecting too much speed up in IDL, but one can never know.

As for Poser and transparency issues.... those have been there for ages also, hopefully they will finally be dealt with, but again, I'm not getting my hopes up too much.

In this case it's seeing is believing.......

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - Fuck. I disaprove of 98% of this forum.

LOL Join the fucking club. None of us are going to be perfectly happy with any collection of discussions. If I were king I would bonk a lot of fucking heads for wasting my fucking time.

Indeed.

How's the hangover?

I SAID HOW'S THE HANGOVER? (Sorry. I couldn't resist 'shouting'.)

There are two things that have been going through my mind while reading this, and other threads.

Windows is not for hobbyists, no matter what Microsoft would have you believe. It needs to be managed properly: maintained and cared for. Not only do most 'hobbyist' users do zero maintenance, they're the ones most likely to fill their systems with crapware. They should be on Macs - the ones that 'just work'.
The four stages of learning:
      Unconscious incompetence: you have no idea how much you do not know
      Conscious incompetence: it dawns on you how much you do not know
      Unconscious competence: you've learned a lot, you just don't realise it
      Conscious competence: you realise that you've become pretty good at whatever-it-is

Most of the stupidest and most negative posts are coming from people who, I suspect, don't really know how to use Windows. The trouble is, because they can launch programs, surf the web and send emails, they think they know what they're doing. They are unconsciously incompetent. Note that this state can persist for years, decades, lifetimes.

Anyone who has progressed from the first state to any of the others tends not to have the know-it-all, arrogant, whining, whingeing, petulant attitude that we've all seen here. Their egos have no problem admitting that they're wrong or that they don't know something, and their attitude is one of wanting to learn and to engage with new concepts and ideas.

Just my thoughts, folks, and aimed at no one in particular.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

but poser is not meant for serious and complicated scenes. firefly can not handle big models,complicated models,raytracing in a normal time.
**
**i tryed it and its works but it takes to much time. afterall its poser.
**
**

LOL, cspear.

Hey aeilkema - I like you today. Very nice wording on your post. I got no problem with your post today and have the same wishes you do. Only difference is I have high hopes that it is fast enough to be usable. I'm using SR1 and it's way better than the release.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - LOL, cspear.

Hey aeilkema - I like you today. Very nice wording on your post. I got no problem with your post today and have the same wishes you do. Only difference is I have high hopes that it is fast enough to be usable. I'm using SR1 and it's way better than the release.

Thanks :-) Good to hear..... I guess I've been using (and testing) Vue to long, that tempers high hopes a little.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote -
That's not how the thread started out. The only reason I'm not using it anymore is because of the horrible long rendering times. I'm getting excellent results, but whenever a render takes more then 4 hours, it's not worth it for me. I've got better things then waiting for a render to finish. 7 hours is way too much for me and on top of it a crash. Poser IDL isn't broken, it just lags a lot.

Well to be honest, I didn't read the beginning of this thread. I just looked at the car pictures, wondered what that had to do with Poser GI/IDL, and moved on until I found something I wanted to argue with. ;-)

So I didn't mean to imply you were just bitching or something, or not understanding it - I was just speaking in general 3D terms, assuming Poser 8's GI works at least similar to other 3D apps.

But I'd imagine you're right about its long render times. Frankly I'm amazed at how comparatively slow Poser Pro is with things that other apps just fly through like nothing, so I assume that that hasn't changed too much.
And that most definitely IS a very legitimate gripe that they would make a feature that nobody can really use, especially when half the controls are hidden away in an undocumented script somewhere.

Of course I believe what BB says about the SR 1. That's what I'm waiting for and don't see much reason to be interested in it until then.

To be fair, unlike some other apps, there are only 4 controls (half of which, i.e. 2, are hidden) precisely because of a recognition of the Poser market. We can't expect the typical Poser customer to grok 21 GI parameters. Two, OK. So they get two, and there are two more hidden away for us geeks.

The priniciple difference that I see after looking at the GI controls and options in some other apps is that Poser will avoid grainy results without the user having to do a lot of tweaking. Some of the other apps you have to decide which Monte Carlo method to use, which interpolation method to use, which caching methods to use, blah blah blah. I think when all the kinks are worked out, Poser's GI will not be the greatest there is, but it will have the smallest learning curve.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Well look. Here's a Poser scene, originally just to get the poses right for the two figures before 'doing it properly' in Vue. Rendered at my low-quality settings using IDL. Frankly, it looks so good (though it's not quite finished) that I may well end up doing a final render in Poser 8 rather than Vue.

That's what's exciting about Poser 8 - I won't have to take so much stuff into Vue. Which, by the way, is taking forever to render a high res version of this scene.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

i have those buildings. using raytraced soft shadows for the sun and some reflected materials takes a lot of time in poser.
and i am not angry because its poser.

i hope for SSS in poser 9 because i want to use this software for humans and skin.

Quote - To be fair, unlike some other apps, there are only 4 controls (half of which, i.e. 2, are hidden) precisely because of a recognition of the Poser market. We can't expect the typical Poser customer to grok 21 GI parameters. Two, OK. So they get two, and there are two more hidden away for us geeks.

The priniciple difference that I see after looking at the GI controls and options in some other apps is that Poser will avoid grainy results without the user having to do a lot of tweaking. Some of the other apps you have to decide which Monte Carlo method to use, which interpolation method to use, which caching methods to use, blah blah blah. I think when all the kinks are worked out, Poser's GI will not be the greatest there is, but it will have the smallest learning curve.

Yeah, I can see that.
I have this habit of forgetting it's being designed for a very specific market with very specific general needs, who want very specific results, and those who want more are comparatively few.

By my count, it looks like there are 9 of us, Mike. Heheheh.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

On a different but similar note, I think there's only one person pushing to get the rigging symmetry bug(s) fixed.

My Freebies

This thread reminds me why I don't post here too much, and even a forum moderator is getting in on it, WTF? Some people really need to learn some humility.

Yes, I am going to say it, and I am sure I am going to be very unpopular for it, but some people here really seem to love to jump all over others for any negative comment about anything poser related (the all knowing gurus, you know who you are). You assume that everyone else is so beneath you that they know nothing- I have noticed this quite a bit lately. To all the gurus here that post everywhere and assume that everyone else knows nothing- great you are poser masters, but you assume that everyone else is stupid and you are all knowing, this is your downfall, and makes for a hostile environment here. Why do you do this?

I am not even referring to this original thread argument, so don't school me on that ok, just an overall observation on the hostility here from people that are supposed pillars of the community. I know all you gurus think you are martyrs for doing all of your poser research, but get some humility and tact, you make the forums here sucky IMO.

wow

Quote - To all the gurus here that post everywhere and assume that everyone else knows nothing- great you are poser masters, but you assume that everyone else is stupid and you are all knowing, this is your downfall, and makes for a hostile environment here. Why do you do this?

I don't think anyone posting here would be comfortable describing themselves as a 'guru', neither do I think that anyone has a superiority complex. Debates get heated and some name-calling goes on. Then things calm down and the debate goes on. Constructively.

Sometimes what someone with knowledge perceives as blindingly obvious is not, to those without that knowledge. That can be desperately frustrating for all concerned: the 'expert' who can't get the message across, the non-expert who can't get a handle on what is being presented.

There are real experts here in diverse fields and they're trying to give us all the benefit of their experience. For free. I, for one, am grateful to them. I see no reason why they should make extraordinary efforts to be super-polite and 'sensitive' while they're doing this.

Is it this that you perceive as hostility? Is failing to understand what's being said making you feel that the 'expert' thinks you're stupid? They don't! I can't see anything in your angry-sounding post that tallies with my experience in these forums, and talk of some sort of 'downfall' is just baffling.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Quote - This thread reminds me why I don't post here too much, and even a forum moderator is getting in on it, WTF? Some people really need to learn some humility.

Wait, so, because I'm a mod, I can't say "No, you're wrong, that's not how it works"? Excuse me for participating in threads, but, there was no actual attacking going on in this thread. It was a discussion that started about one person's wish to have a better working Poser 8, got derailed into "But video games can do This and This and This!", which derailed even further when it was clarified that Poser 8 isn't a video game, and that, in order to turn a Poser render into the quality that that poster wanted (which most of us didn't consider real quality) hundreds of man hours were needed, and that's not ever going to happen in the Poser community, where "Point and Click" is the mantra.
If you are offended that opinions were shared, I'm not going to apologize for voicing mine. There are those who actually know what they're talking about, and those who like to blow smoke and say they know what they're talking about.

Sorry, I'll take the knowledge of an MIT grad who's been doing this for almost as long as I've been alive over an armchair quarterback any day.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Sorry, I'll take the knowledge of an MIT grad who's been doing this for almost as long as I've been alive over an armchair quarterback any day.

Sheesh! I had no idea he was that old.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Actually, he's not, and I should have phrased that better. I should have said "most of my life". I'm not that old...gonna be 29 at the end of the month ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Heheh. I could be wrong, but from Jen's Rendo Homepage image, I'm guessing I've been doing CG not almost as long as she's been alive, but longer.

I started doing non-real time CG in 1980, 29 years ago. I started doing real-time CG around 1987, when I wrote my own flight simulator, not for any commercial purpose, but just to amuse myself.

[EDIT] CROSS POST. So I have been doing it longer.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Actually, I was born in 1980 ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I typoed - I started CG in 1980. At Draper Labs, in Cambridge, where the Apollo Moon Buggy was designed.

I remember the first full color image we displayed at Draper on a computer monitor. It was a scan of the Mona Lisa, and we had a graphics card and monitor that had 8-bit color, 800 by 600. It took about 40 seconds to display the image as it was read from disk. We all thought it was science fiction.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

LOL, it's all good.

I love when threads talk about "how it used to be". I know for a fact that I take for granted that I can load 200 photos from my camera to my computers in about a minute, or that I can watch a movie that was created by computer...on my computer. I feel really lucky that some of the people who worked to make that happen are also some of the people I get to talk to on an almost daily basis. I'm not going to go out of my way to tell you (or the others that I know) how wrong you are when you're not. I see that a lot, and it really drives me nuts, LOL. I always want to ask "Does your Google work? It's not that hard to find that BB DOES know WTF he's on about."

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

so people who are not MIT grads are 'intellectually inferior'? WOW! ( yes i shouted )

what an attitude, and what an ego!
boy, am i glad i don't need any help with Poser ( 'cos i don't use it ).

at least when i need help with my app, the people i deal with are inherently helpful ( and they can get their egos through doorways ).i have never come across anyone as condescending, arrogant and rude, over there.

Yes, and no. Obviously, MIT grads got to where they are because they are intellectually superior and/or had the drive that others didn't.

Not that they're the only people we should listen to when it comes to things.

What I'm saying is, rather than telling someone who DOES know what they're doing that they're full of crap and don't know what they're talking about, most people here don't actually take free knowledge given to them with any sense of gratitude. I'm not just talking about bagginsbill, here.

Most threads here de-evolve into "I'm more right-er than you are! Neener neener!" faster than anything else. Most times, everyone's wrong. Or, my favorite, everyone's saying the same thing, only using different words, and arguing about the grammar.

My point is, rather than "I'm right because I own the software and X versions before it", how about "This is how it's really done, taking these steps", or "this is why what you're doing is the wrong way, here's why it failed, and here's what you can do to circumvent it". Or, sometimes, "Yes, I know it's wrong, and I don't know how to fix it." Rather than attacking the guy that's actually giving the answers that are right (although, not always what you want to hear), most people go on a rant about grammar, attitude, and how they didn't like the answer. Sorry, I don't like being told I can't do something, either, but I try to stop short of setting my computer on fire. If it's not technically possible for me to do it RIGHT NOW, I wait.
But, like I said earlier in this thread, since no store sells packets of Patience, it's running short in the community at large.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - when I wrote my own flight simulator, not for any commercial purpose, but just to amuse myself.

ohoh

Quote - so people who are not MIT grads are 'intellectually inferior'? WOW! ( yes i shouted )

That is not what was said... I am not an MIT grad and I don't feel insulted in the least. You can be anyone (with no formal education) and be a brilliant thinker, and sometimes MIT grads can be foolish. We were just given bagginsbill's personal experience and a reason for impatience with willful ignorance.

Quote - at least when i need help with my app, the people i deal with are inherently helpful ( and they can get their egos through doorways ).i have never come across anyone as condescending, arrogant and rude, over there.

Well, nobody I've come across has been as helpful with Poser materials or lighting as bagginsbill. He is exceptionally brilliant and wonderfully giving to the Poser community. I am thankful he puts up with the frequent prats and continues to help us who are willing to learn.

And as far as condescending, arrogant attitudes, I see them most frequently in those least deserving of wielding them.

"boy, am i glad i don't need any help with Poser ( 'cos i don't use it )."

then I have to ask... why are you posting in a poser forum.....?

Who can't handle a little grump every now and then? When it comes right down to it, we're all a bit grumpy here in this Poser forum. I think it's a prerequisite...

I'll be damned if I feel like a great big grin everyday...lol. Believe me folks, bb is tame...lol.

Laurie

Well some just don't deal well with stupid people. And of course, stupidity is not an absolute term. No people are omniscient. Some are close, but it is iimpossible to be good at everything in this world. Some know their way around computers, some can build a house, farm the land or repair a car. Each is a skill and I don't think there's anybody who can be good at all.

Same with Poser. Some people are incredible artists without knowing a single thing about HOW Poser does what. They have just learned, by expirience, which buttons to press so they acquire their results. Others know all about which buttons to push and levers to pull, but couldn't make art to save their life.

Each have their merit, and each are valuable members of the Poser society.

And to say some are overall better than others is rubbish. It's a symbiosis. The people who grok poser's inner functions needs USERS - otherwise it would be meaningless to make the program at all. And those who like to make pretty pictures need someone to ask when something doesn't work as expected. There's no fun in knowing everything if no one bothers to ask you.

FWIW I enjoy BBs replies. Sometimes with an ill-hidden "now let's see the daily snark"-glee, most times for some genuine information. Often I don't undestand more than a fraction of it. My brain grinds to a halt every time it sees something even remotely related to math. But I still enjoy reading it, and trying out things. I'm very much a "hands on" kind of person with Poser. REading doens't work here, I have to poke and prod and turn the dials to see what it does. Somewhat ineffective, but at least I'm having fund while I'm doing it :)

Thanks for the support, people, but this is devolving into precisely the kind of stupid discussion that makes me snarky.

Yes I have an ego, but it doesn't get in the way of me helping people. What gets in the way of me helping is when somebody interferes with the free flow of accurate information, backed by facts, experiments, and evidence. Then, I pounce. Don't make stupid speculations, or I'll call you a dumbass, like when I beat the snot out of aeilkema a couple weeks ago, who is now my friend after all, because lately he's simply been stating his problems, instead of snarking about how I and SM caused them because we made stupid choices.

Don't say that Poser sux after you show me you don't know how to use it, or I'll beat you over the head. Just say you don't know how to get something done and I'll help.

Don't tell people to do things with Poser that are directly in contradiction to a point I'm making of which I'm absolutely certain, or I'll pound the snot out of you. Like all the times I explain that Poser's neutral displacement value is 0, i.e. black, and then somebody else opines that the neutral displacement value is 50% gray. I will eat your liver.

Here's a thread where everything is going fine, the way it's supposed to:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2781580

Sure, I make a couple of abrupt pronouncements. "No AO with pointlights". You wanna argue with me, you'll have to back your position up with evidence about why you're right, or discuss the situation that maybe I had not thought of or encountered before. But be prepared to be wrong, because there aren't many Poser situations I haven't already seen a hundred times.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - "boy, am i glad i don't need any help with Poser ( 'cos i don't use it )."

then I have to ask... why are you posting in a poser forum.....?

I second that question. :)

And I've seen plenty of non-helpful, condescending people in other 3D forums, but rarely in here.
And BB has never been unhelpful to anyone who asked his advice with shaders, at least not that I've seen.

Silke

Hmmm, in order to get to where some people in this forum are today (in CG knowledge), it would take me at least 29 years, plus the difference in my intelligence, educational background, and talent. I cannot even begin to turn that into a formula so that I could calculate a time line. Or, I can read the threads, look up what I can for myself, and ask questions (most but not all of which are answered).

I am keenly aware of what I do not know, and I appreciate all the information and help from everyone no matter how peevishly it is offered. Any day of the week I will take a right answer over a pleasantly offered one. I really do want to learn more, even though I can only absorb so much at a time.

I have a full time job that interferes with my Poser time, and I have to deal with administrators, eleven full-time and one part-time MD, and their nurses every work day. I have four formal degrees, and had to sit through the class time under professors/instructors to earn them. My ego was long ago ground to dust and blown away in gales of pontification. I can take more abuse than anybody here can launch, especially, if there is the benefit of knowledge.

Poser is just a hobby for me, and I have no aspirations of doing professional CG. Poser is fun. I enjoy using this application, and learning more about it. I like reading in these forums even when some of the threads turn disagreeable or boringly empty. I have a need to enjoy myself and I am intent upon doing so.

If people do not use Poser, do not want to use Poser, and do not like Poser, why are they reading in these forums, and complaining about the temperament of the discussions? If you don’t like some of the people who post, don’t read their replies. If a thread is irritating or disturbing, don’t read it. But, unless someone can give better answers than the diverse, experienced, and knowledgeable people who populate this forum, don’t chase them off and deprive others (me) of this resource.

I am now turning on my flame shields,

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

He's never failed to give me an answer when I've asked nor failed to show me when I'm being an idiot either...lmao. At least he explains why he thinks I'm an idiot ;o). Conversely, he's been there to say "hey, you did something right" as well.

So all in all, maybe you have to root through things you don't really like so much to get the the nuts and bolts of what he's telling you, but the information, if you understand it, is priceless if you need to know what you're doing. If you don't need to know, don't read. No harm, no foul.

And as an aside...if you're really that thin-skinned, maybe it would be better to just avoid the Poser forum altogether...lol.

Laurie

*Obviously, MIT grads got to where they are because they are intellectually superior and/or had the drive that others didn't.

*Wow. Thus spoke Zarathustra.

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

"To all the gurus here that post everywhere and assume that everyone else knows nothing- great you are poser masters, but you assume that everyone else is stupid and you are all knowing, this is your downfall, and makes for a hostile environment here. Why do you do this?"

When I first started using Poser 4 and registered here at Renderosity I was amazed at the help you could get from the forums and I posted quite often. This thread reflects perfectly why I stopped following the forums. People bitching and complaining without doing any of the work themselves. But to critisize the people who offer probably the most experience and insight to how Poser works....?! That's HOSTILE (yes, indeed that was a shout.) Sounds to me like you've got a case of the envies...;)

But in an effort to pull this thread towards something more constructive I'd like to touch on something MikeJ said earlier:

"This is why so many people have so much trouble with shaders and now, with GI too. There is no one size fits all, there is no easy way. There are no light sets, backdrops, cameras, shaders, textures, or anything else that will guarantee a perfect scene. Not just Poser, but the same goes for all 3D apps.
And a lot of times, presets won't even get you close to what you want."

This is the most important lesson a Poser user needs to learn. They should print it on the cover of the Poser manual and put it on big street signs all over the Poser universe. It took me a long time to learn and until just recently I was hunting for that "perfect" light set that would fit every scene. It doesn't exist.

I can name you real world example as to why that is. A few years ago I got the job of photographing commercial products (pens & such) at work and I had no experience in photography nor did my boss. His idea was to find the perfect light setup that would make the background completely white so I could just mask out the subject with the magic wand in Photoshop. Sounds great, right? Well after I had adjusted the lights and the camera settings I was succesful!! I had photographed a black pen on a clear white background and masked it out with a few clicks of the magic wand! Fantastic!! Next I took a royal blue mint box, placed it on the white background, zoomed out a little bit and SNAP! Everything was grey. I didn't change the camera settings or move the lights an inch. But because the subject had a different material, color and size and because I zoomed out a little bit the light environment for the lens had changed so I pretty much had to start all over again.

I´m no expert on Poser materials and lights and I know less about photography but that's just how things are. If you're not going to take the time to at least try to understand how things work and be willing to put some time and effort into what you're doing you're not going to get the results you want.

As for the original post in this thread; If you're looking to do hi rez professional work maybe you should consider a more professional software. It would cost more but if you're doing things on a professional level it might be a good investment.

Vestmann's Gallery

nothing wrong with MIT, mind ye.
the CalTech of the East, or so they say :lol:

Quote - nothing wrong with MIT, mind ye.
the CalTech of the East, or so they say :lol:

I am sorry but there is something seriously wrong with MIT, if the students come out thinking that they are intellectually superior beings . And that's without even reading a single paragraph of Friedrich Nietzsche.

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

Why do you assume MIT students don't read Friedrich Nietzsche?

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

They don't come out that way - they go in that way. You can't get in unless you already believe you can tear the world apart and re-build it however you like.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

And, not all intellectuals put all that much stock in Nietzsche. You might, personally. That doesn't mean everyone does.

edit Obviously written a while ago, and just decided that now was a good time to hit "post".

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Yes but this talk of Nietzsche is irrelevant. I never said I was an ubermensch. I said

Quote - I also know that when I'm dealing with an ungrateful bastard who is my intellectual inferior, I talk nice for maybe two posts, but if the person aggravates me, I turn ugly. Deal with it.

I'm wondering if I'm in the same situation I refer to there, right now.

Peelo, here's an analogy.

A man who is 5 feet 10 inches tall and an expert basketball player is approached by a 4 foot boy who barely knows the game, and challenged. They play for a while, and in 10 minutes the man has 100 points to the boy's zero. The man says, look this isn't much fun, can we stop. The boy says, no, you'll make a mistake - keep going. After another 10 minutes, it's 200 to 0 and the man says I'm done playing with you. The boy cries that this isn't fair and the man is not polite.

A croud has gathered, and from the sidelines, Peelo shouts "He thinks he's a giant. He's no giant." Riiiiight.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

guys its an internet forum. we are here talking about a 3D software. we dont know each other.
if someone tells me that i am a dumb ugly motherf..... i will not be insulted.

it was explained months ago that Poser is created for the people who post in the gallery. it makes sense. there are not a lot of people who would want SSS but more wanted IDL. the software should always be created for the people who are using it. if only 3 users want particles then they wont have it. Poser is not expensive and its has Firefly as the render. i am suprised that we even have IDL with firefly.

i tryed a lot of times to import big files with big buildings and cars and it works. but it can not render it out with good settings in a normal time. its again Poser. IMO the focus should be on humans. its nice that we can use different materials on humans like reflection and clothes.

but dont be mad if a mountain,watter,3 figures,hair dont render under 12 hours. the software is not designed for this. if you want it then try out Blender thats free. the new version is supposed to have even some real smoke. or maybe 3DS-max. i heard that the version 9 is still pretty good.

Who said Poser doesn't challenge the mind and intellect?

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

:biggrin:

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

> Quote - guys its an internet forum. we are here talking about a 3D software. we dont know each other. > if someone tells me you are a dumb ugly motherf..... i will not be insulted. > > it was explained months ago that Poser is created for the people who post in the gallery. it makes sense. there are not a lot of people who would want SSS but more wanted IDL. the software should always be created for the peopel who are using it. if only 3 user want particles then they wont have it. Poser is not expensive and its has Firefly as the render. i am suprised that we even have IDL with firefly. > > i tryed a lot of times to import big files with big buildings and cars and it works. but it can not render it out with good settings in a normal time. its again Poser. IMO the focus should be on humans. its nice that we can use different materials on humans like reflection and clothes. > > but dont be mad if a mountain,watter,3 figures,hair dont render under 12 hours. the software is not designed for this. if you want it then try out Blender thats free. the new version is supposed to have even some real smoke. or maybe 3DS-max. i heard that the version 9 is still pretty good.

I guess we do differ on that. What Poser initially was and what it has become are two different things. By now Poser is designed to render a mountain,water,3 figures,hair and clothes. It is very capable of doing so. The scene shown renders in less then an hour, render settings on final, render size 2000x1200. Poser can handle it easily.

I've done scenes way bigger then this. A city, (Stonemason's Urban Sprawl), 4 fully cothed figures with a number of props, sky and 4 detailed vehicles. Render size 2000+ and render settings on final. No sweat...... 45 minutes later all done. Or take the example, I guess you can count how much stuff is in it. Rendered in 55 minutes, scaled down to attach to this message.

If you're machine is up to it, Poser can handle it, easily. Poser can handle a lot, an amazing lot and it can render in very normal and acceptable times on a Core2Duo. The only thing Poser can't handle at the moment is IDL, it may be a bridge too far for Poser, but going by what BB's experiences are with SR1, it may not be anymore.

Just check out some of SM's promo images, they're way beyond what I'm trying to achieve.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

you can render this out? with complicated realistic shaders?
because pople just connect teh texture in the diffuse and they set the DM shadows to 256.
yeah it will render out very fast.
but with reflections,glass,raytraced shadows blur 10,AO,skin shaders,..... it will not be fast . thats a fact.

I agree that an IDL render has to be slower than without IDL, ice-boy.

I don't think aeilkema is arguing it should be the same speed.

Aeilkema is making a quantitative argument, and, ice-boy, you're answering as if he made a qualitative argument.

Break it down. I'm going to make several test statements, and I bet both of you disagree with the first and the last.

IDL can and should render at the same speed as without it.
IDL cannot render at the same speed as without it, but IDL should be about 10% more render time.

3) IDL should be about 50% extra render time.

4) IDL should be about 100% extra render time.

5) IDL should be about 1000% extra render time.

6) IDL should be about infinite extra render time.

Everybody with me? 1 and 6 are wrong. (No caps, not shouting, see?) Anybody who thinks otherwise, stand over here and I'll hit you with tomatoes.

Now somewhere in the middle things become believable. But where exactly?

The released version of Poser is like #5. It takes 10 times longer. I think it should not. SR1 behaves like #3 or #4 most of the time. That's where I think it should be.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Yep, what BB said :-)

Of course IDL is slower, we all wish it wouldn't be, but that's wishfull thinking. If it can be brought down from the 1000% extra to 100% extra, then I'm very happy and that is very acceptable indeed. I've got no problem with waiting a couple of hours if you know that the results will be great.

SR1 start to sound good to me!

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote -
SR1 behaves like #3 or #4 most of the time. That's where I think it should be.

FWIW, I'd say you're probably about right, assuming that you're comparing it to the same scene with raytracing, but not GI.
From what I've seen in other apps, that would be more or less in line for a decent quality Final Gather interpolated GI render, compared to its raytraced, non-GI version.

Quote - I agree that an IDL render has to be slower than without IDL, ice-boy.

I don't think aeilkema is arguing it should be the same speed.

Aeilkema is making a quantitative argument, and, ice-boy, you're answering as if he made a qualitative argument.

Break it down. I'm going to make several test statements, and I bet both of you disagree with the first and the last.

IDL can and should render at the same speed as without it.

IDL cannot render at the same speed as without it, but IDL should be about 10% more render time.

3) IDL should be about 50% extra render time.

4) IDL should be about 100% extra render time.

5) IDL should be about 1000% extra render time.

6) IDL should be about infinite extra render time.

Everybody with me? 1 and 6 are wrong. (No caps, not shouting, see?) Anybody who thinks otherwise, stand over here and I'll hit you with tomatoes.

Now somewhere in the middle things become believable. But where exactly?

The released version of Poser is like #5. It takes 10 times longer. I think it should not. SR1 behaves like #3 or #4 most of the time. That's where I think it should be.

he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.
and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

I posted this also in another thread. 5 minutes to render!

Got to go on a trip. CU L8R

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.
and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

What 3D app doesn't have longer render time when doing reflections, refractions, AO and complex shaders. Have you tried Cinema 4D with Interposer Pro? Sure you can load up some props and figures and with simple shaders it renders fast. Even with IDL But add more advanced features and render times go up. That's to be expected right? So why should Poser be any different?

Vestmann's Gallery

My render above is using two spotlights with over-sampled soft ray-traced shadows, reflections on glass and metal, IDL, and my VSS skin shaders which are very complex.

Rendered in 5 minutes <<<<<

What 3D app renders IDL fast? Why, Poser of course.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - My render above is using two spotlights with over-sampled soft ray-traced shadows, reflections on glass and metal, IDL, and my VSS skin shaders which are very complex.

Rendered in 5 minutes <<<<<

What 3D app renders IDL fast? Why, Poser of course.

Impressive! You said on another thread that speed would not be the main concern for SR1 but I´ll take it from your posts here that speed will improve somewhat with SR1...?

Vestmann's Gallery

They didn't work on speed. They worked on making IDL operate better at lower sampling rates. The net effect is you can have better results with lower settings, and lower settings means faster.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - They didn't work on speed. They worked on making IDL operate better at lower sampling rates. The net effect is you can have better results with lower settings, and lower settings means faster.

Makes sense, since most people using Poser would use such settings for rendering.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - They didn't work on speed. They worked on making IDL operate better at lower sampling rates. The net effect is you can have better results with lower settings, and lower settings means faster.

That's good. My humble tests have all been on mid - low settings and I´m quite happy with the render speed. Will SR1 be ready shortly?

Vestmann's Gallery

All I know is the original planned date is already behind us. New beta testers were added, and the testers are being super-aggressive. Work is going on every minute of every day. When the pie is done, then we will eat. ;-)

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

That's fine by me. I´ll continue testing with low settings and finding my groove with IDL and it's good to know that SR1 will make it all look better.

Vestmann's Gallery

There is no normal time with GI renders. It will vary greatly depending on what content is in the scene and how it is lit, and how render settings are configured. The only safe bet is that it will always be significantly longer with Indirect Lighting/GI than without. Particularly when people don't really know what their content is - how many polygons, how it's modeled, how their lighting works (canned light sets) what materials settings are applied, or how their render settings are really set (canned render settings), there is just no way a lot of people will have the faintest idea of how long a render is going to take until they actually run it.

My Freebies

Quote - > Quote - he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.

and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

What 3D app doesn't have longer render time when doing reflections, refractions, AO and complex shaders. Have you tried Cinema 4D with Interposer Pro? Sure you can load up some props and figures and with simple shaders it renders fast. Even with IDL But add more advanced features and render times go up. That's to be expected right? So why should Poser be any different?

WT dude?

i know that reflections will make renders longer. i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

Quote - There is no normal time with GI renders. It will vary greatly depending on what content is in the scene and how it is lit, and how render settings are configured. The only safe bet is that it will always be significantly longer with Indirect Lighting/GI than without. Particularly when people don't really know what their content is - how many polygons, how it's modeled, how their lighting works (canned light sets) what materials settings are applied, or how their render settings are really set (canned render settings), there is just no way a lot of people will have the faintest idea of how long a render is going to take until they actually run it.

I accept that. Light bounces around differently based on it's surroundings. It might take a long time for people who have no understanding of IDL to understand this though.

Most of the Poser 8 threads are extremely negative and that's not good. I was very unhappy with my first render attempts in Poser 8 and after reading through some of the threads I was ready to pack it in and even considered to ask for a refund. Turns out I was just lazy. I was using a scene that was saved in PPro and the materials in my scene were all bad for IDL. After making a new scene and adjusting the shaders it rendered way faster then PPro and I´m very happy with IDL. It's easy to get caught up in the bad vibe that's floating around this forum and I think it's taking away a lot of the enjoyment people could be having with P8.

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Quote - WT dude?

i know that reflections will make renders longer. i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

Okay, I obviously missed your point completely and that's okay. Let's not dwell on it ;)

Vestmann's Gallery

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.

and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

What 3D app doesn't have longer render time when doing reflections, refractions, AO and complex shaders. Have you tried Cinema 4D with Interposer Pro? Sure you can load up some props and figures and with simple shaders it renders fast. Even with IDL But add more advanced features and render times go up. That's to be expected right? So why should Poser be any different?

WT dude?

i know that reflections will make renders longer. i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

I mainly use raytraced shadows and also reflection (if needed). Using raytraced shadows adds only little render time on my machine, but reflections add a lot more. I've done quite a lot of medieval scenes (and still do) and those always involve reflections, lot's of metal. I've noticed that a lot of vendors do not include 'real' metals in their content, they 'fake' it. Probably to make sure that renders will not take too long. I often change those materials, it sure adds to the rendering time, but nothing unacceptable really.

It's nothing like IDL as it is currently. Adding raytraced shadows and reflections never give me rendering times that I can't handle. They may double, but often not even that much. The rendering time increase is roughly 30-90%.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

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Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - WT dude?

i know that reflections will make renders longer. i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

...hmmm. Okay maybe I´l dwell on this a little bit. What people are you talking about? People in general? Positively every Poser User? Some people that you know? Are you judging from the gallery here at Renderosity? A lot of people don´t post to the gallery (god knows I haven't for a looong time) Is it perhaps that you don't like to use these things and are annoyed that other people are trying to use these things to Poser's best abilities? I'm just asking...

Vestmann's Gallery

Quote -
What 3D app renders IDL fast? Why, Poser of course.

Good deal.
Now you can get them working on that interactive preview renderer and photon map disk caching. ;-)

** ENOUGH**

This has gone on too long. I'm locking this thread. What should have been an informative, and sometimes venting, thread has turned into bickering. Enough is enough.

yes, for the curious, posts were deleted

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Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: I love P8 Indirect Light..... but, no more.