I just bought an amazing model from Sanctum Arts, and posted a picture here in the Poser gallery that I made using it.  One of the comments posted reads:

"Great render but don't use this model (or any other Sanctum Arts Model) for any commercial purpose whatsoever. They are intended for hobby use only. I regret having purchased this model for that reason, and I wish I could sell the license, but that is also forbidden by the EULA :-("

I've never heard of such an arrangement, and so have checked and re-checked the licence at Sanctum Arts, but can't find any such restriction.  Am I reading it wrong, or has anyone else heard of this?

Had a look at their stuff - not to my taste at all. Does posting in a gallery constitute "commercial purposes" or was the comment person using your image gallery as an opportunity to vent?

Quote - Had a look at their stuff - not to my taste at all. Does posting in a gallery constitute "commercial purposes" or was the comment person using your image gallery as an opportunity to vent?

Dunno....I bought it to make some artwork for a commerical project; I'm sure the person posting has misread the licence.  It has all the usual restrictions you would expect on not selling or distributing the actual content, but I can't find any mention of there being a restriction on your own images.  I've done the sensible thing and emailed Sanctum Arts, so I should get a definitve answer hopefully!

Attached Link: http://www.sanctumart.com/news.php?viewStory=8

Quote - 6. You may NOT copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images created to produce trademarks or logotypes for yours or any other Third-party comercial products.
All SANCTUM ART'S products are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sanctum Art, INC.

Other than that, the SA license is pretty much the same (but wordier) as the store license here and elsewhere (it has similarities in form to the license for Poser's included content).

Personally after seeing the way SA went after someone who legitimately bought one of their models because they couldn't find their name in the customer list I'd give them a miss.

If you insist on having something of theirs make sure you keep darn good records of when you bought it in case they demand you prove it.

Quote - or was the comment person using your image gallery as an opportunity to vent?

The Most Likely Scenario.
be aware that there Exists, in this community,
A very Dedicated Cabal of Sanctumart  Haters who are very Upset at the Mans Perceived Arrogance in his promotional materials.
Especially  Over at the DAZ forums
So always Check things out for yourself before
Listening to some "web forum Attorney"
with an Agenda.

Cheers

I have no agenda, I just have a long memory.

Wolf359 has given very sound advice.  Double-check with SA before committing to commercial renders.  I have heard and have read certain situations where attorneys were involved pending lawsuits. 

Well not doing this to be an ass or anything but...
This thread

here:
http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54287

Speaks for itself in my opinion. I know that I haven't bought anything from them since then, not sure about the others who professed their non-support but I stuck to it because I am also one of those people who use multiple names on different sites. (yeah the cost of their stuff had something to do with that as well.)

Not saying that thread should be a nail in a coffin or anything but people should read it and make up their own mind.

Quote - I suspect that whoever wrote the comment was misinterpreting this paragraph :- > Quote - 6. You may NOT copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images created to produce trademarks or logotypes for yours or any other Third-party comercial products.

All SANCTUM ART'S products are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sanctum Art, INC.

Other than that, the SA license is pretty much the same (but wordier) as the store license here and elsewhere (it has similarities in form to the license for Poser's included content).

I dunno.. thats pretty clear: you cannot use renders of their content for ANY commercial use, period. No wiggle room.. just NO.

Lucifer_the_Dark is correct. I too remember some of those witch hunts that SA conducted.

hborre is also correct in that SA has pursued legal actions against many, though they were the party that were found to be in error.

Wolf359 is correct in that there are a lot of SA haters out there but he doesn't seem to have a solid clue as to why. SA has a very bad reputation for a reason.

Quote - Well not doing this to be an ass or anything but...
This thread

here:
http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54287

Speaks for itself in my opinion. I know that I haven't bought anything from them since then, not sure about the others who professed their non-support but I stuck to it because I am also one of those people who use multiple names on different sites. (yeah the cost of their stuff had something to do with that as well.)

Not saying that thread should be a nail in a coffin or anything but people should read it and make up their own mind.

Wow, that does make up my mind. SA has some great looking models but I'm not going anywhere near them if that's how they do business.

i can fully understand his concern about redistribution of his product in terms of piracy , but selling the product  and then telling you what you can and cannot do with the rendering you took of it  , is just ridiculous in my opinion , imagine Nikon or Canon selling a camera and then telling you , you cant sell the photographs you took with it .
his work is indeed top quality ,but having a rigid(insane) licencing  agreement is just going to alienate (if it hasn't already )the honest poser users . because iam guessing it sure has hell hasn't stopped his products from being pirated  thus far .

artdude41... I LOVE YOUR AVATAR!

Blimey; I appear to have opened up a right can of hornet's nests here.....thanks for the sage advice....still awaiting a reply from Sanctum Arts themselves by email though.  I'm holding off using it for the commercial projects I had in mind (some game art and a magazine article) until I get a definitive answer.

artdude... Why didn't I catch your gallery sooner. I saw you Avatar and though that I would catch a couple Judge Dredd pics but, WOW, what a gallery. If the rest of you haven't seen his work go and check it out.

Quote - > Quote - I suspect that whoever wrote the comment was misinterpreting this paragraph :- > Quote - 6. You may NOT copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images created to produce trademarks or logotypes for yours or any other Third-party comercial products.

All SANCTUM ART'S products are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sanctum Art, INC.

Other than that, the SA license is pretty much the same (but wordier) as the store license here and elsewhere (it has similarities in form to the license for Poser's included content).

I dunno.. thats pretty clear: you cannot use renders of their content for ANY commercial use, period. No wiggle room.. just NO.

All those words seem to create the wiggle room rather than remove it. You are free to "copyright and distribute rendered ... images" if you're not producing "trademarks or logotypes for ... commercial products."

In other words: They don't want you to render a pic of their werewolf's head and use it to sell dish soap. (i.e. in a form that could be trademarked)

"... release the power of werewolves on those tough stains" :)

 It would be nice if you could post here when you got an answer, Paul. More speculation most defeninitely doesn't help. 

An answer would only tell you what SA meant it to say.

Quote - I just bought an amazing model from Sanctum Arts, and posted a picture

Good luck with that!

Be prepared for some pretty nasty emails from SanctumArtKitty if you decide to ever use one of those models! There are threads at pretty much every poser site out there with someone saying that they were accused of stealing the model and that if they didn't provide proof of ownership through names, address, phone number, place purchased, invoice number etc, that they would be taken to court.

Very nasty way to run a business if you want my opinion.  Personally, the models aren't up my alley, but even if they were I'd look to another vendor, such as Sixus1, and save myself a huge headache.

Quote - > Quote - I suspect that whoever wrote the comment was misinterpreting this paragraph :- > Quote - 6. You may NOT copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images created to produce trademarks or logotypes for yours or any other Third-party comercial products.

All SANCTUM ART'S products are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sanctum Art, INC.

Other than that, the SA license is pretty much the same (but wordier) as the store license here and elsewhere (it has similarities in form to the license for Poser's included content).

I dunno.. thats pretty clear: you cannot use renders of their content for ANY commercial use, period. No wiggle room.. just NO.

That clause clearly says not to do Trademarks and Logos because the likenesses are already Trademarked.

The previous clause which says :- > Quote - 5. You may copyright and distribute rendered still or animated images derived from the Restricted Content without restriction or royalty to SANCTUM ART provided you do not violate other clauses of this agreement.

is also quite clear.

Quote -
All those words seem to create the wiggle room rather than remove it. You are free to "copyright and distribute rendered ... images" if you're not producing "trademarks or logotypes for ... commercial products."

Thank you
Well to be honest I dont care why he is hated
I think its  only fair to warn people who come here
and ask about a poser merchants products
not to be disuaded by his "Enemies" who Spread false
information about their usage limitations.

I clearly remember the outrage over at the DAZ Forums
when Sanctumart released his werewolves
and Made the boasting promo Statement (paraphrasing):
***"These Models are of the highest Quality Dont waste your money on those Comical Attempts to make something like it"

Many Touchy/Feely people in the Daz forums Assumed he was referring to the somewhat Cartoonish (IMHO) "Lycanthrope" werewolf figure By a popular merchant named "lynn"  and declared
Jihad against Michael Rak( SA) and go on the attack every time his cursed name  is mentioned.
So what he does not Feel obligated to come and play Kissy face in the forums, or seems boastful and Arrogant in his Ad copy.
..Who cares ?? thats no reason to Lie/mislead about his EULA's

BTW  George Lucas is Well known for giving Alot of leeway
for us using Starwars Characters in Fan Art and even Fan Films
But I assure you  if you put an "R2D2" in your Commercial Logo trademarked brand
the Lucas Film Lawyers Will come after you.
And Sanctumart's Commercial restriction are no Different from That

The great Majority of poser user are not Professional Graphic Designers Doing Commercial Brand Development and would not be Affected by this anyway.

On the "Proving you are a legal buyer" point
perhaps he lacks the usual Diplomacy and Tact many poserverse Dwellers have come to expect from Merchants  but again ...Who cares??
I cant receive tech Support from Luxology For MODO 401
without first establishing myself as a Legal buyer and the same goes for Autodesk,Maxon et al.

Cheers

There's a HUGE difference in calling for tech support for a product you purchased and having said merchant come after your art gallery calling you a thief with no proof and libeling you all over the Poser forums! I too watched it all in disgust. I wouldn't own one of their products if you beat me with it!

It's been a loong time since I took Business Law, but 'commercial' implies that money changed hands after the sale, to someone else. If you can't post on the site (or any other), why would you pay good money to get it?

I'll recognize his avatar; someone with a smoking gun and foot...;)

Quote - here:
http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54287

The attitude they (SA) exhibit on that thread is appalling.

And their "arguments" are farcical.

Dude there is a BIG difference between asking for tech support and having a company rep see that you used their product and them emailing you DEMANDING that you show proof of a valid license or they take you to court.

Oh and not sure about anything else but the reason you cant use the "grim armor" is because it is actually the Jin-roh armor (probably with very few changes, haven't compared the two but the helmet looks VERY similar.) So naturally they don't want you using someone else's trademark armor in something commercial like a movie or vid game (as if you could use something that poly heavy in a vid game these days)

Quote - > Quote -

All those words seem to create the wiggle room rather than remove it. You are free to "copyright and distribute rendered ... images" if you're not producing "trademarks or logotypes for ... commercial products."

Thank you
Well to be honest I dont care why he is hated
I think its  only fair to warn people who come here
and ask about a poser merchants products
not to be disuaded by his "Enemies" who Spread false
information about their usage limitations.

I clearly remember the outrage over at the DAZ Forums
when Sanctumart released his werewolves
and Made the boasting promo Statement (paraphrasing):
***"These Models are of the highest Quality Dont waste your money on those Comical Attempts to make something like it"

---

Many Touchy/Feely people in the Daz forums Assumed he was referring to the somewhat Cartoonish (IMHO) "Lycanthrope" werewolf figure By a popular merchant named "lynn"  and declared
Jihad against Michael Rak( SA) and go on the attack every time his cursed name  is mentioned.
So what he does not Feel obligated to come and play Kissy face in the forums, or seems boastful and Arrogant in his Ad copy.
..Who cares ?? thats no reason to Lie/mislead about his EULA's

BTW  George Lucas is Well known for giving Alot of leeway
for us using Starwars Characters in Fan Art and even Fan Films
But I assure you  if you put an "R2D2" in your Commercial Logo trademarked brand
the Lucas Film Lawyers Will come after you.
And Sanctumart's Commercial restriction are no Different from That

The great Majority of poser user are not Professional Graphic Designers Doing Commercial Brand Development and would not be Affected by this anyway.

On the "Proving you are a legal buyer" point
perhaps he lacks the usual Diplomacy and Tact many poserverse Dwellers have come to expect from Merchants  but again ...Who cares??
I cant receive tech Support from Luxology For MODO 401
without first establishing myself as a Legal buyer and the same goes for Autodesk,Maxon et al.

Cheers

one can use Sanctum Arts products for commercial use.

one cannot make logos using the products or images that would be come trademarked by another company because the company would then have rights to the product and it's use, and only Sanctum Arts has that right.

Almost all Poser products have similar restrictions.  Daz has the same restrictions, from Daz3D EULA:

"DAZ gives no rights or warranties with regard to the use of any objects, names, trademarks, service marks, or works of authorship depicted in any 3-D Model(s) and the User must satisfy themselves that all necessary rights or consents that may be required for the User's particular use of a 3-D Model are obtained from the applicable third party(ies) owning or having rights in to such objects, names, trade marks, service marks, or works of authorship."

both EULA, Daz3D and Sanctum Arts have the same restrictions just worded a bit differently.

Sanctum Arts produces some of the best Poser models and products.  While some may have had problems with the way Sanctum Arts has done things in the past (3 years ago!) the poser community doesn't let a sleeping dog lay they like to beat dead horses (most of whom have never owned or will own one of their products).

I own several Sanctum Art products and have always been treated proffesionally by Mike and SanctumKitty.

Ah what a treat cackle I'd all but forgotten about this one. Thanks for providing me with an hour filled with malicious glee ;) 

Just had a look at the site..  Still has e-frontier as the site for Poser.!!

TOS seems similar to most others I have seen..

Quote -
More speculation most defeninitely doesn't help. 

Are you kidding?
Speculation is one of the greatest sources of entertainment around here. It's practically tradition. It definitely helps on an otherwise boring day.
Why would anyone want to discourage that?

:laugh:

Quote - While some may have had problems with the way Sanctum Arts has done things in the past (3 years ago!) the poser community doesn't let a sleeping dog lay they like to beat dead horses (most of whom have never owned or will own one of their products).

One doesn't have to own a companies product in order to judge a companies professionalism based on their public behavior. I wouldn't own stock in Exxon either after the way they treated the mess they made in Alaska.

**MachineClaw said
"**Sanctum Arts produces some of the best Poser models and products.  While some may have had problems with the way Sanctum Arts has done things in the past (3 years ago!) the poser community doesn't let a sleeping dog lay they like to beat dead horses (most of whom have never owned or will own one of their products)."

sounds about right for this place

Another thing to consider is that the gallery comment that set this thread off is almost certainly against the TOS.

Quote - **MachineClaw said
"**Sanctum Arts produces some of the best Poser models and products.  While some may have had problems with the way Sanctum Arts has done things in the past (3 years ago!) the poser community doesn't let a sleeping dog lay they like to beat dead horses (most of whom have never owned or will own one of their products)."

sounds about right for this place

Quoted for Agreement.

Cheers

UTTER NONSENSE!!

SA "Grim" ripped of  "kill Zone" 

 "kill Zone"   ripped off "Deep eyes"

"Deep eyes" Ripped off " Jin Roh"

" Jin Roh" Ripped off "Darth Vader"

Whom of course Himself Ripped off........

After reading this PoserPros memory lane, I just got tickled pink with one posters interpretation of the situation -- a real classic. 

In all fairness, it's not a laughing matter, but oh well...

JB

How odd, I was just looking at one of their products but I've never bought into the idea that genius exculpates arrogance or  aggressive litigiousness.  Good Iron and Blood defense though Wolf.

     Eh I have been wrong before and this wont be the last time so fuck it. besides just because he can make a good model does NOT excuse assholish behavior to customers/potential customers. No matter how he thinks he is "protecting his IP. Some people will buy everything they ever use and some will never buy anything because they have a skewed view on copyright and the internet. but sending nastygrams to everyone who uses his stuff just because the name that they posted a render under doesn't match the name that they bought it under is pretty fucking stupid.

     Oh and yeah the incident may be three years old but it is still relevant because i seriously doubt he has stopped this behavior.

     Only thing with your comparison of Darth Vader and the samurai is the fact that they look nothing alike. also notice no glowing eyes so Vader shouldn't even be in your little mashup.

Edit: to add language filter. ( I did say fuck after all)

Quote -       Oh and yeah the incident may be three years old but it is still relevant because i seriously doubt he has stopped this behavior.

There hasn't been another post like that one at that site in three years.  I'd say that proves you pretty wrong and that how SanctumArt deals with this community has changed.

The Poser community loves a pitchfork feista no matter how much time has passed.

Never had any problems with the people at SA meself.  Bought a lot of their stuff, too.  My one and only gripe is the P4/PP material settings take forever to change over to something that works properly in P6, since there are thousands of material zones.

I'm not taking any sides here, merely telling you of my experience. 

Quote - > Quote -       Oh and yeah the incident may be three years old but it is still relevant because i seriously doubt he has stopped this behavior.

There hasn't been another post like that one at that site in three years.  I'd say that proves you pretty wrong and that how SanctumArt deals with this community has changed.

The Poser community loves a pitchfork feista no matter how much time has passed.

What you call a "pitchfork fiesta" I call "A Word to the Wise" or "Buyer Beware".  Customers have a right to know the public practices of the companies with whom they do business with. When someone comes along asking about their rights to the useage of a SA Product, they have every right to be made aware of the possible pitfalls using said products could lead them into. The fact that there's such a "Glowing" example of public record to point them to is just icing on the cake.

Clearly the restriction is limited  to the creation of logos. At one point it might have been dangerous to post non-profit renders under nicks not in the S.A. database, and this has engendered a lasting ill-will as well as dyslexia when it comes to reading licenses. 

At least people aren't lying and calling the S.A. figures low quality like some do with Apollo out of a malice for its creator. 

 I can use my daz and renderosity people for making a logo can't I?  I mean you place them in a little scene and morph them and pose them, then render - coudln't that be a logo?

I do remember when DAZ had a morph called anne marrie godard that they placed restrictions on.  She couldn't be in any porn pics for a start.
I have a feeling she didn't sell too well.

Love esther

Hmmm..... Didn't even know of SA till now. But from looking at their stuff, looks excellent! I dont know what they may have done in the past, but I see some very nice products I would like to own. And I like the idea they make things for Poser, which likely means it will work in Poser.

Does their stuff work well? I bit more spendy than alot of other content, but if they work as well as they look, well worth the money.

As far as what SA or Anton may have done in the past, neither have harmed me personally in any way, so I reserve judgement. I think people/companies get demonized for some small mistake which gets blown out of proportion by the masses.  Human nature seems to dictate that we must have someone/thing to hate and villify. I am by no means an exception. But if its all the same I think I will reserve judgement.

Someone mentioned Anton/Apollo. May be off topic, but it's a good example of what happens in comunities like this. I was not here for whatever fiasco transpired, for so many people to hate the guy. But I do know that however arrogant or other people may have found Anton to be, he also had many admirable qualities. He was also talented, straight forward and honest. We all have our faults, and make mistakes that we may wish we could change. I like to think we all have our better qualities as well.

I am sure this likely holds true for SA as well. Whatever mistakes they have made, it's not likely they are all bad. Personally I like to hate Daz for their marketing, but at the same time they put out products I like and they are organized and stable. So I dislike some things and like others. Sounds about like everyone else I have ever met in this world.

Gotta go back to work on my own faults.          :biggrin:

Quote -  I can use my daz and renderosity people for making a logo can't I?  I mean you place them in a little scene and morph them and pose them, then render - coudln't that be a logo?

The license doesn't mention any restriction, but the whole point of a logo is to be as unique as possible (as they're essentially de facto trademarks, registered or not) so you probably wouldn't want to for anything but the most trivial situations.

Quote - How odd, I was just looking at one of their products but I've never bought into the idea that genius exculpates arrogance or  aggressive litigiousness.  Good Iron and Blood defense though Wolf.

Odd I Dont Consider the Man a "Genius" he seems very meticulous, most times,(Look at the interior of the "pitbull" vehicle!!)

Frankly he has had some major Quality Control issues with some of his releases.
the "Grim" Armor had a knife sheath geometry file that was missing its .obj extension causing a Loading error for me.
I believe his "Scythe" creature and his Hummer H2 SUV had similar problems back in his DAZ PA days.
and I had to conduct a system wide removal of his useless  poser4 Era"reflection maps" which Convert to horrible environment maps in  Maxon Cinema4D where I render with Vray
yet amazingly one rarely hears  these legitimate BUYER criticisms  but instead a predictable child like "Me too" Chorus what a horrible meanie he is, most of which Violate the TOS  prohibiting personal Attacks, and largely from people who dont even do Sci-fi renders or own a single product of his.
.

Arrogance: thats his problem .

Litigiousnes:  LOL!! probably the most empty of threats are the : "me  is gonna sue youse" , variety posted in web forums.
May we please hear from at least one poor soul who has actually
been hauled into a court of Law by this dangerous Aggressor.??

Cheers

 nruddock - but the reason i use poser and bought content is to make art for various purposes - book covers, a commercial comic, and maybe a logo one day.  i'm not that great at drawing so that's why i want poser 
obviously some wolfish critter in a particular pose rendered in a particular way would have about as much uniqueness for a logo as any rendered art would have as unique "art" - surely?  why should a logo be different to a book cover - if i render it - it is my art isn't it??
love esther

Hi you should read up on Trade Mark&Copyright
here is a very simple example of what is allowed and what is NOT.

............this is Allowed