[OK, I admit this is a bit of a rant]

why is it that some of the most mediocre art gets so much positive comment? It's one of my chief grievances with this site, that the users often comment on 'art' because it's done by someone they like, and instead of criticism or genuine feedback, they just say "Wonderful!" "Amazing!" "Perfect lighting!", when really the feeling-less, uninteresting, poorly lit and rendered art is worthy only of deletion.

I know new users deserve encouragement, and I know it's good to give positive feedback and constructive criticism, but the comments are often blindly and unrelentingly sycophantic. I can't really give examples without insulting people, but there are people in the galleries who post something mediocre in the Poser gallery every day, and get thousands of comments saying how wonderful it is, when really the image looks like something from a low-poly single-light Poser 4 scene.

[rant over, answers on a postcard]

Perhaps it's just me.

I'm trying to decide whether this thread is a can of worms opening session or a dead horse flogging session, You're talking , by the way, about the clique & their followers. Best to get your dragon scale body armour & kevlar helmet on before the stone throwing starts.

And it's not just you. ;)

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Yeah, I thought I'd seen this type of thread before. But as dead horses go, it's an annoying one which deserves repeated flogging!

Couldn't agree more, it needs flogging till it stops twitching.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

It's a vig problem, when you have a negative critic people imagine is for discourage, the better is saying the trust with explanation ...

We all have different opinion of the art ...

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

True, but "ooh how lovely" when the picture is supposed to be Paris hilton but in fact looks like Quasimodo's ugly brother doesn't really help the person creating it improve their skills. ;)

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

exactly; what's wrong with constructive criticism every now and then? Surely that's how a good community should operate - if we just all complemented each other all the time, the human race would die out pretty quickly.

Developmental cul-de-sac. That's what it is.

Well while this is a Dead horse you should Realize that Many Many people here
never go anywhere
else and Dont have any Clue what a properly lit & textured
3D rendered scene looks like.

Besides your "constructive criticism" will be ignored at will not inspire the "Culprit" to change there methods to improve their renders by one single digital molecule.
because they will only sit contently and be encouraged by the empty praise to post even more of the same.

Dont waste your time.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

It's been like that for a long time now. I don't think it will change. I'd rather have some constructive remarks, the all the wow's and such, but I must admit that a few wow's now and then are nice. It's a shame indeed that mostly mediocre images get all the attention, perhaps we should do our best less and make some terribly done images also?

I think that a huge help would be a change of selection in the staff picks. I often wonder why they even promote the images they do promote. A lot of them we've seen a million times before and others aren't outstanding at all. I do think they should promote the images that stand out, are innovating or done well, not what everybody likes already.

Quote - Well while this is a Dead horse you should Realize that Many Many people here
never go anywhere
else and Dont have any Clue what a properly lit & textured
3D rendered scene looks like.

I disagree. There are enough good image here that are properly lit and textures, within Posers limits of course. They just don't get the attention they deserve, because everyone is too busy rating bad images made by their buddies and encouraging them to make more of those, instead of searching out the good stuff.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

With IMHO firmly in place, on I go...

Well, I think that there are a number of things with gallery comments...

Some who comment want to show their support for whoever posted the image, which is well-meant and almost always well-received :) Some people who post images don't really respond well to critique, no matter how gently phrased, so commenting becomes a bit of a "walking on eggshells" minefield (to ridiculously overwork some cliches.) It's that balance that's difficult to get right when you aren't actually face to face with the artist that makes these things, so it is hard to judge right. I guess most people commenting tend to play safe.

I know that when I remove a picture following critique, it means that I agree with the critique and took it down to re-work it. It almost certainly comes across as petulant sulking, but is really an admission that the critique offered was on the money and that I need to work harder in order to improve whatever it was that I overlooked / ****ed up.

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

On another website, I saw a pretty good rendering and it was obvious that the individual used Poser 8. A person took the time to comment on the picture, and suggested that if the individual increased the lighting, it would really enhance the rendering.

The author didn't want to do because it would take hours to render. There are tricks that he could have used to reduce the rendering time (I didn't see any reflections in it accept for the door knobs) and no one suggested turning on IDL and using IBL.

Even on a single CPU it doesn't have to take hours for reasonably sized rendering to render even with IDL activated-he/she has other problems with the computer. The individual could have been helped but didn't wany any. Jan

Quote - Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

kaibach have you read all those books? did you know number 6 in the trilogy has recently been released?

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

I don't leave negative comments, cuz, I only click on the images thumbnail that looks like something I would like. And I don't feel like I know enough to give critical advice.

I browse the Gallery to enjoy it.

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Quote - > Quote - Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

kaibach have you read all those books? did you know number 6 in the trilogy has recently been released?

and heard the Radio show and records, watched the TV series and wanted to kill someone over the movie....

Quote -
The author didn't want to do because it would take hours to render. There are tricks that he could have used to reduce the rendering time (I didn't see any reflections in it accept for the door knobs) and no one suggested turning on IDL and using IBL.

Even on a single CPU it doesn't have to take hours for reasonably sized rendering to render even with IDL activated-he/she has other problems with the computer. The individual could have been helped but didn't wany any. Jan

Yes I dont believe "bagginsbill" is using some kind of UBER rendering hardware set up
and he has shown people that it does NOT take hours to get a decent IDL render but hardly no one seems to care.

Why?? because once you start asking people in the poser gallery sect to actually
Start Learning rendering parameters and other settings you lose your audience due to the fact that people find it easier to use presets for everything.
and dont want to learn how to customize lighting for example.

And why should they??
they are not CG professionals
they have no paying Clients to please
and there is plenty of personal satisfaction to be had from the guaranteed gallery "praise".

The Same goes for Animation
with the advent of nonlinear auto Drag&Drop solutions Like aniMate+ For DAZ studio
We see Youtube flooded with some of the most Awful Cobbled together non-contextual animation sequences I have ever seen .
replete with unbearable Canned music Loops & unsightly,cheesy 'Vegas video" title Sequences.
but since most people(Gallery posters &Praisers) are hobbiests and we should Not expect
them to spend alot time& effort Producing Quality Images& animations.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

I have no comment...lol. Much, much too incendiary...hehehe.

Laurie

It seems to me that people tend to comment more about whether they like the subject matter than the technical expertise. I have a Poser graphics site that has all levels of artists as members, as well as a lot of non-artists. The images that get all the twitter are not the technically good ones... they are the ones that pander to the interests of the visitors. I can put up something that I've made sure is at least minimally complete and it never gets a nod, while a shadowless, plain-background, picture lit with the default lights gets 20 comments because the character looks like Barbie.

Most commenters don't know enough about what you're doing to even have a judgement! It's like me and shaders... I have a terrible time using them, and therefore don't feel qualified to comment on those who do. (I don't care for a lot of the effects obtained this way, but don't feel like I know enough to ever discuss it!)

My $.02

if you say something like " you know, this image just totally sucks the big one" .. you're going to hurt someones feelngs and bring the wrath upon yourself.
If you're honest and tell it like it is, you're going to hurt someone's feelings...and you're going to be the bad guy ...

BUT .. you can go to the critque forum and get pounded as much as you want ... if you REALLY want your work to be critisied. now how many of you would rather have all the positive drivil poured upon yourself. Well just go to the critique forum and note how few are there putting their work up for real critique.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

I have been seeing this alot also and have thought to myself, are the ppl leaving comments f'n blind???? There are obivious things that stick out like thumbs wrong with the image here...but, who am I to comment. I just think, wow keep encouraging ppl to put forth (blank blank )artwork instead of pushing them to actually see what they are doing wrong and make the steps to fix some things. I am no one to judge, but glad im not the only one that sits an scratches my head....

Right, we're all in agreement.

Trouble is, we can't change human nature, and the mods can't just start culling mindless comments, so this is never going to go anywhere.

Ah well, I'm going to keep adding harsh criticism to people's work, regardless - i rather enjoy being the bad guy (hence the 'nemesis' part of my username), and if people notice that, yes, perhaps they should try & improve rather than thinking their cr4p is excellent, then I think the ends justifies the means - it was only through criticism that I improved.

I sit and scratch my head when I read post in my image gallery , but then again, I never claimed to be good at anything, and I do not strive for real world "realism".

If it makes someone happy to post a comment on an image, good/bad or indifferent, then great.

I just "doodle" and post the stuff I like. If I want corrective crits I go to other places and post WIPS....

I look back at some of the horrendous renders I had posted early on in using Poser 5, and I think that along the way I have learned something, but rarely due to comments posted here.

The funny thing is I read more posts and messages where the person is asking for a hard and fast way to do something, wanting to be spoon fed information on "How To Do xxx" without taking the time to try to experiment and find what works for them. But then again I guess if all you ever read is GREAT, WOW, SUPERB, and the like, then you have no reason to make change.

.02

Quote -

Ah well, I'm going to keep adding harsh criticism to people's work, regardless - i rather enjoy being the bad guy (hence the 'nemesis' part of my username), and if people notice that, yes, perhaps they should try & improve rather than thinking their cr4p is excellent, then I think the ends justifies the means - it was only through criticism that I improved.

I would welcome it with open arms, and mind. Blast away ;)

Quote -
The funny thing is I read more posts and messages where the person is asking for a hard and fast way to do something, wanting to be spoon fed information on "How To Do xxx" without taking the time to try to experiment and find what works for them.

Sometimes it is not even a matter of experimenting
But Simply LEARNING THE EXISTING FEATURES of the program.
Ive given up trying to answer questions from people about poser animation because as soon as Mention the graph editor they fall silent and continue their endless search on the web for some free BVH files to make their figures magicly move exactly the way they want.

My website

YouTube Channel

While the mindless ooh's and ahh's are great for one's ego, it's the constructive criticism that helps us grow as artists and users of Poser. I actually like it when someone shows me what I could do better to improve something, either technically or aesthetically.

lady-morana.deviantart.com

I think a lot of it is your fans (or what we call your 'amen corner' down heah...;) I wind up in the strange position of thanking people, then saying 'no, it's really crap, but thanks' to my own work...;)

I've had my behind blistered by leaving an ambiguously-negative comment on a site or two in the past, then had my gallery 're-evaluated' in a nuclear fashion...;) So now, unless I can see what's wrong, and how to fix it...I'm more known as 'Pakled the 'great'...when it comes to comments...;)
Some people will even run for the Mods to retaliate, so I just don't bother with that kind of tsuris...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

This community is the way it is, pretty gentle and nurturing. If you want critique and criticism post/read at conceptart.org or deviantart.

LukeA

My latest novel

Welcome to the existance of the 'Suck-up Club'. :) Once, I checked the images of an entire
day, lots and LOTS of images posted in a day. One commenter posted the exact same
comment on EVERY pic posted that day. It's what they do. Cut'n'paste a single comment
on a hundred images, no matter what the image is of. And most members of the Club
don't participate on the forums either. Ego gratification is the only purpose of the Club.
Just ignore them. It's all you CAN do, really. ^_-

Eric

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=NoelCan

I would give My left arm to get meaningful and constructive criticism, I have had little formal arts training but I believe I can learn..

On the other (missing) hand, there are Many individuals using the gallery as a social network.
Perhaps these people should be using chat instead.. That opens another door, whenever I go into CHAT there is never anyone there..

If One wants comment One must comment, seems to be an unwritten rule here at Renderosity..

Just went to "CHAT".. One person there, but does not respond when I "talk"...

Quote - I would give My left arm to get meaningful and constructive criticism, I have had little formal arts training but I believe I can learn..

On the other (missing) hand, there are Many individuals using the gallery as a social network.
Perhaps these people should be using chat instead.. That opens another door, whenever I go into CHAT there is never anyone there..

If One wants comment One must comment, seems to be an unwritten rule here at Renderosity..

Oh for the love of all that is holy, I see what you mean! You're getting the same comments for the WIPs as for the Finals regardless of any changes you've made! I didn't spot anything constructive. Remembering why I don't post often to the gallery here.

Since you asked for it....Lighting, lighting, lighting.....then there's the posing....then there's the inadequate blending of ground and background in most of the renders.....and don't be reluctant to engage in postwork, all the good artists are doing it.

I highly recommend Digital Lighting & Rendering, 2nd Edition by Jeremy Birn

Critically study the lighting and composition of pictures that you find appealing and figure out how to replicate the effect. Hell, COPY the piece exactly for your own benefit while learning then apply the techniques you discover to your own original works. Perfectly legit so long as you don't post the copy.

Most of the Andrew Loomis books on drawing are in the public domain now and are a very good source for instruction on pose dynamics. By reducing the subject to sketches you can more easily see how the pose balances then you can apply the knowledge to 3d poses.

Develop a consistency of style within any individual work then you can break the rules; think Picasso, Dali, Monet, Van Gogh for examples all highly skilled at "traditional" styles before creating their individual styles.

Render in passes then composite the results in an image editing program. This gives more control over your postwork options and simplifies blending the background into the render.

Also do not post an image "hot off the presses", wait a few days and look at it again....you'll nearly always see things that you could do better and if you don't....that's when you post it as a WIP for other people to critique. (somewhere that you can get an honest reply)

I'll want that arm properly preserved and mounted if you don't mind.:biggrin:

I don't do post work because I do not have the software.. Photoshop is way out of My price bracket.
Painter X by Corel is all I have..

I take on board all you have to say about lighting, but, like i said above My Post work facilities are limited to say the least..

The arm will go to the Most constructive post that points Me in the right direction (Like this one)..

BTW if I stroke Your ego enough, do You PURRRRR??

Noelclan you never ear something like Gimp or Paint.net ?

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

Quote - Noelclan you never ear something like Gimp or Paint.net ?

No! But I will look..

I do consider it to be appropriate to do all of the work in Poser.. After all is this not what poser is for?
I have read pros and cons about this in other threads..

I leave a comment when I see an image I really like and I try to avoid saying things like "WOW!!" or "Excellent" but I usually end up using both those words ;) But I do try to say what it is I like.

I've learned that when doing constructive criticism, it's good to leave it in a form of question like: "Have you thought about placing your character slightly to the left or right instead of smack in the middle?" or "Have you thought about turning on shadows on your lights?" ;) These examples are meant as a joke but you know what I mean.

Vestmann's Gallery

There's nothing wrong with postwork. In a way I'd say there's something wrong with never attempting it. Personally I love when a render comes out of Poser just like I wanted it, but that happens all too rarely - so I postwork it to get the desired result. Postwork can also be adding a frame, like the recent Motivational Poser I made.

The only thing is: Be upfront with it if you've postworked an image into oblivion. I'øveseen awesome examples of painted hair and -clothes - but then say so, so people don't think erroneously that it's something you can achieve IN Poser alone.

The "drive-by" commenters.. well.. I can't really take that seriously. If you paste the same comment on each and every image, it loses all validity and you end up making a fool of yourself.

THEN AGAIN - if the same comment is posted on some images, it might be someone whose native language is something other than English. Just like the feedback on eBay, it's mostly rather cookie-cutter in form.

Also, while I agree fully that no picture with missing shadows and vacant stares is a nuisance, it COULD just be someone trying to be ironic/satirical about the "genre" - I have yet to make a NVIATWAS-pic that ISN'T very much tongue in cheek. Some may post those pathetic renders just to prove a fact (that if it's a scantily clad woman with large bewbies - it WILL generate both clicks and comments)

Personally, I LIVE for comments. It's the reason I post my pics at all. If I didn't care about comments I culd just as well let the pictures sit quietly on my harddisk. But I prefer honest ones.

Quote - Just went to "CHAT".. One person there, but does not respond when I "talk"...

I've taken a look at your gallery, renderings look quite good. Just wondering if you have experimented with both IDL and IBL and what you did to create your IBL. I made the mistake of simply clicking on IBL and that is not enough, one has to do part duo too. haven't tried the Inverse square law function yet. Don't know how much of a realistic effect it has unless you are working at astronomical unit levels (1 AU equals 93 million miles). Jan

it's necessary to have galleries associated with these poser marketplaces where users are encouraged to post poser renders (and viewers are encouraged to post comments of uncritical praise), otherwise there would be no incentive for casual users to purchase products for use in poser. it may also apply to other software with a large number of third-party merchandise.

Working close up with inverse square is really great.. It is really meant for closer use.
e.g. If a light is 10 feet away You have 100% of the light..
At 20 feet the light reaching the object is reduced to 25%

THAT IS A VERY BASIC IDEA..

Thanks for looking..

When I post, and I admit I haven't posted many images here recently, I get a lot of lookie-loos but only a few comments. On another subject, I wish that Renderosity had a water-marking system like Deviant Art has.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

I'm one of those people who don't take criticism well. If you put a "complement" but "suggestion" comment I'll probably be hurt. (even though I don't believe you mean to hurt me and it's nothing personal) So I just don't post much and brace myself when I do. And when I do post I consider suggestions.

I think most people who don't take criticism well are like me and avoid posting so if people are polite and don't just totally tear down someone's work I doubt you have to worry about crushing their desires to make art.

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

Quote - Working close up with inverse square is really great.. It is really meant for closer use.
e.g. If a light is 10 feet away You have 100% of the light..
At 20 feet the light reaching the object is reduced to 25%

THAT IS A VERY BASIC IDEA..

Thanks for looking..

--may give it a try--as soon as I get me IDL and IBL balance working the way I want. I'm now working on reducing the rendering time--One good start is to shut down the computer, get a cup of Cnoffee, come back turn it on, load Poser, the scene and render. Jan

""-may give it a try--as soon as I get me IDL and IBL balance working the way I want. I'm now working on reducing the rendering time--One good start is to shut down the computer, get a cup of Cnoffee, come back turn it on, load Poser, the scene and render. Jan""

It does get better.. We are moving OT here..

On the other side of the coin, I don't comment unless something really blows me away ... and when that is the case I usually end up saying something like "OMG that is amazing!" If I post a render I don't expect comments, I just post because I enjoy it.

What turns my head in an image? Great attempts at realism get my attention every time. Great use of postwork that shows an artist's individuality. Dramatic lighting. Things that are well done and out of the ordinary.

And ... I can understand how sometimes criticism can be harsh ... but if someone offers a suggestion they are doing it to help you improve. There is a difference between someone saying "That render is pure crap" and "You know, next time you might want to add an extra light behind the character to pull them away from the background." One is insulting, and the other is helpful.

Without constructive criticism and suggestions, I think it's pretty tough to grow as an artist. 8-)

Quote - I don't do post work because I do not have the software.. Photoshop is way out of My price bracket.
Painter X by Corel is all I have..

I take on board all you have to say about lighting, but, like i said above My Post work facilities are limited to say the least..

Corel painter X works quite well for post work and The GIMP is getting very close to Photoshop in available features.

Photoshop Elements 8 is currently $80 US and does pretty much anything you would need in the area of postwork. Elements 6 or 7 should be available for less at electronics stores, both are still viable.

Quote -
The arm will go to the Most constructive post that points Me in the right direction (Like this one)..

Always a catch to any offer.:lol:

Quote -
BTW if I stroke Your ego enough, do You PURRRRR??

More likely to snarl, touch my ego and you're likely to draw back a nub instead of a hand!:lol:

I don't know that you should be that bothered about not doing postwork (or not having Photoshop) - some people swear by it, I often don't even bother.

In this image (watch out, there's BEWBS in this pic!*) http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1954585&user_id=629786&np&np I spent absolutely ages working on the lighting (there's 3 spots above her and six point lights around her sides) and the sweaty skin look - postwork... I think I probably upped the contrast a little, and darkened the area around her eyes, but that was it.

All I'm saying is it's not necessarily the postwork that'll help you make a good pic.

Hey... I'm hijacking my own thread! What can be done about the sycophants, eh? We need some direct action!

*Oh, FYI I deleted the rest of my gallery (and freestuff) off Renderosity because of the heavy-handed attitude of the mods.

Quote -
Hey... I'm hijacking my own thread! What can be done about the sycophants, eh? We need some direct action!

Figured I'd get my comment in before this thread gets locked for "not being productive", or "before it gets worse"...

I just deleted several long paragraphs that I had written, but after I read it back I realized I had already written the same things many times over the years, and so have a lot of others. Horse beating and all that.
But...

They have a limit for how many images people can upload per day, and I think they also ought to have a limit for how many gallery comments a person may make per day. That could cut back on the vacuous blathering and sycophantic fawning considerably.
Some might say, that that would also cut back on the "helpful" comments, but I don't think most people who post in the Poser gallery really want that. They can get better and more honest feedback in a forum thread.

Oops, there I go, reaching for the horse-beating stick, like some kind of reflex action. Better end this now. ;-)

Attached Link: My Gallery

Flog the sycophants, not the dead horses..!!

Thanks to the members who took the time to look, and offer advice..

Postwork isn't a must at all. If you're good at it, you can achieve some great details and lighting. On the other hand, if you know Poser well and know how to set up lights well, you can achieve great results without the need to postwork.

There seem to be a good number of people who don't really know how to use Poser, but are great at doing postwork, they achieve the same as someone who is very good at using Poser, but isn;t good at doing postwork at all.

I don't always do postwork, often I don't. But at times there are effects Poser cannot achieve or there are some minor errors and then I do postwork. When I'm working with specific lights, like candles, I do find postworking those lights very beneficial. It adds light effects much better then Poser does.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Pissing in a violin ... Sure at this time many peoples have send a "good" or "great" on a thing who have no name and who P4 will be better lol !

Follow the gallery is there many, carrefull ! i dont say my gallery is perfect, so far, i prefer a constructive critic against a "good" to make pleasure ...

I dont know how to translate this ... ' c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend "

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Quote- "Pissing in a violin ..."

Oh how I hate that Phrase... IMO it is an insult.. Nevertheless so many others use it.. I must not show My age or let morality influence My opinions..

Pissing in a violin? I've never heard that before but to me it sounds like an insult.

What does it mean? And what's the etymology of it?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1976246

All of the comments so far have mentioned "lighting" or lack thereof. I am using Poser8 IDL which leaves almost no visible shadow. So I need to insert an extra light to create shadow.! Isn't this defeating the purpose of IDL.?

Hmm, interesting conundrum there...

Now I'm a little surprised at Poser, considering in Carrara, if you place a light you'll get a shadow unless the light is too far away from the character, or out of range, thus also the character would be much darker also... Unless the ground /floor is too dark (which i've had a few times too). But then you've got highlights in the floor texture, which should pickup the shadow...

Wish I could be more of help...

:edit: I guess Poser doesn't quite want to give up the multi-lighting.

I wonder if you could try adding a negative light and place it so it does cast a shadow, or adding an extra light in the same position as the main one, just for shadow effect. I long gave up Poser back on version 4. Dunno how much or little help this would be...

Quote - I dont know how to translate this ... ' c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend "

Been awhile since high school French but it's roughly that "you learn the most from your mistakes."

Google translator would probably give better results than me.:biggrin:

On topic to the other posts:

Postwork is not always necessary but if you render with postwork in mind then you can fix, adjust, use creative options not available in rendering, etc. where needed.

Another reason to render for postwork is time. There are instance where an effect can be accomplished in image editing much faster than by rendering with comparable results. Two minutes in Photoshop or an hour rendering....

Rendering for postwork doesn't mean you have to postwork just gives the flexibility.

Global Illumination....if you aren't getting any shadows you're doing it wrong.

Quote - All of the comments so far have mentioned "lighting" or lack thereof. I am using Poser8 IDL which leaves almost no visible shadow. So I need to insert an extra light to create shadow.!
Isn't this defeating the purpose of IDL.?

Basically, "Yeah." Try working with the light probes over adding lights though. Baggins Bill has some good points on the lighting in P8 in some of the threads here.

Don't think I'm just being critical, lighting is my nemesis also.

Serious Noelclan, how do you use IDL ?

Look at this, it's not perfect but in this scene only two specular lights the rest is the environement ...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1974810

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Quote-"Don't think I'm just being critical, lighting is my nemesis also."_

I have been using bb's sphere and tutorials recently.. Also RDNA's TerraDome..

P8's lighting is much improved overall. Maybe something new in SR2..

Lighting is my nemesis too. I've been experimenting with everything at once-IDL and IBL plus a spotlight for using Inverse Square Law lighting. I set up two figures, one a little behind the other with the spot light (with Inverse Square Law-ISL- activated) in front of the first one, the IBL light centered on both. Haven't tried Specular Lighting yet. I sort of like the results. Jan

Personally, I was afraid to post in the galleries for a long time but now after years, I've started. I think the intimidation factor sinks in for newbies. When I posted my first vue pic, after nearly 50 hours of work, I received some constructive critique as my very FIRST comment. It hurt at first, but in all honesty it was well deserved. I just wish the artist who made the comments had taken time to also tell me what he liked about the picture instead of just letting me know what was wrong with it.

For people just starting out, I think positive critique is great to encourage them to post more and develop their skills. Then after maybe a few pics, people might add a comment or two on what could be done better. It's all in the way its handled and lets face it, some people use kid gloves while others use an iron fist.

The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve. When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something. And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

Vestmann's Gallery

Quote - The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve. When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something. And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

I noticed that too--on the majority of them and don't comment for the same reasons. Its hard commenting on a scene when you don't know what Poser series did it and if using the V3 or V4 or Jessie or Sydney minus the purchased head and body morphs for the V series or if they made some of the props themselves-making some of the props one self is a definite plus. Jan

A Quote from another thread..

Quote - "Quote :- " ... pissing in a violin ..." Quote...

Can You please explain this phrase to Me / Us ..?
Personally, I find it Very insulting..
"

It's a french expression like "talking in the empty" ... End Quote..

Even now the phrase has been explained. I STILL find it insulting..

"Pissing in a violin"="talking in the empty" didn't really shed any light on the expression for me. I had figured it meant "pissing in the wind"="engaging in a futile endevor".

It cracks me up we are treated to "pissing in a violin" but "c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend" is far too arcane an expression to translate... "It is in making errors that we learn" is not quite the leap that is "pissing in a violin" I would hazard.

Does "pissing" earn a profanity advisory?

Following the pissing in a violin analogy to its logical conclusion, should I assume that pissing in a cello would be a considerably worse waste of time? Or would you go in the other direction, such as pissing in a kazoo?
How about, say, urinating in an acoustic guitar? Does that lose its punch?

Holaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!

When i say that i dont treat anyone !!! You need to learn yhe french language subtility ...

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Quote - Following the pissing in a violin analogy to its logical conclusion, should I assume that pissing in a cello would be a considerably worse waste of time? Or would you go in the other direction, such as pissing in a kazoo?
How about, say, urinating in an acoustic guitar? Does that lose its punch?

Is this the reason why stringed instruments are difficult to tune..??

You know how it is... If you don't say anything like "Gush, gush, this is THE BEST yet!!!!" you are considered a troll. Criticism is not really wanted in the gallery, no matter what they claim.
Someone told me once, on one of my early renders (pityful as they were), "You know, this is good, but if you do this and that, it would be great." I have never forgotten that advice as it helped me a lot...

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Quote - The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve. When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something. And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

I'm going to pick on you now.:biggrin:

Ya don't have to know squat about the artist or the tools they are using to recognize lighting failures, composition failures, posing disasters, character floating an inch above the ground, etc.

I am with you on the usefulness of critique though. Too bad it only works for those that want to grow and learn.

It is hard to get good help these days.. #;0)

Quote - It is hard to get good help these days.. #;0)

SO true. Could be worse. Could upload your images to deviantart and get nothing but a handful of views, a few favorites, and absolutely zero comments or feedback nomatter how much you ask or beg, let alone constructive criticism or critique. At least here is both a forum, and you stand a chance in the gallery. And your already getting a bit of feedback, hints, and suggestions.

That said, I don't get much critique, hints or advice either (albeit I use solely Carrara). Its been mainly just learning as I go. (and tons of test renders). ;)

That's what is good about this thread, folks that want to learn are getting plenty of crits here. We can plop them into our tool box and improve our stuff in the gallery. Okay your stuff in the gallery, I haven't posted anything yet. Jan

Quote - That's what is good about this thread, folks that want to learn are getting plenty of crits here. We can plop them into our tool box and improve our stuff in the gallery. Okay your stuff in the gallery, I haven't posted anything yet. Jan

kool ;)

Just keep in mind Carrara handles lighting differently, theres no orb / sphere setup with 3 point lighting, nor inverse square or negative lighting. Lights are in the prop form of arrows, be it bulb, tube, distant, sunlight, moonlight, etc. And for sun & moon light, aiming and positioning of those are controlled by the atmosphere sky controls. All my outdoor daylight scenes just use that one sunlight and Carrara does all the shadows itself. For indoor lighting bulb & tube (tube light = flourescent) - all lights cast shadows where placed, unless specified not to cast shadows.

But yeah, general tips, advice, suggestions and critique on technique does cross the translation though ;)

my gallery link if needed: www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php
I'm always happy to get feedback.

Yep, I know, got Carrara, Hexagon, and Vue 7 Pro Studio and the lighting system are quite different there.

You need to know what software created the image. One can't critique a Carrara image, using Poser stuff-you'll drive the poor fella nuts looking all over for IBL and IDL and Inverse Square Law functions in Carrara or Vue. Jan

Quote - I dont know how to translate this ... ' c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend "

One learns through one's mistakes.

I'm deliberately posting one such mistake for your critique. Please review: it's the culmination of a week's worth of reading threads on lighting. One such thread dead-ended back in 2003: the author proposed using a depth-mapped and raytraced light both placed in exactly the same place. Never posted a picture or anything, so I did exactly that, since the RT shadows were too harsh on Charlotte's face.

Seems to work, but then, I've been mistaken before (20 minutes ago, to be exact). Here's the link:
www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php

I've already re-done the pose: poor Charlotte looks like she's about to fall over. This render (to which I will provide a link on that above page) was done in Poser 8. Yes, Poser 8... I've decided to finally USE this brilliant piece of software I invested in. It is rendering much faster.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Holaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!

When i say that i dont treat anyone !!! You need to learn the french language subtlety ...

The concept of "sous-entendu" is purely French, and a completely oblique notion to most non-French persons. I lived in France for two years before I finally started to catch on to what they heck they were actually saying:

"Mais, il est con comme un balai, ce mec la."

"Mais, que-ce que ca veut dire, 'con comme un balai'?"

"Ben, si tu le met la, il reste la!"

Translating this is pointless, because you kinda had to be there, but it about killed me laughing. But then, I'm weird.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - > Quote - The problem is that a lot of the time artist don't include any sort of information about their images so you don't know how much work has gone into the image or what they're trying to achieve. When I first starting posting I liked getting criticism because usually it would teach me something. And of course a few praises encourages you to go on.

I'm going to pick on you now.:biggrin:
Ya don't have to know squat about the artist or the tools they are using to recognize lighting failures, composition failures, posing disasters, character floating an inch above the ground, etc.
I am with you on the usefulness of critique though. Too bad it only works for those that want to grow and learn.

Open season on Robynsveil's lame efforts. Go for it, please-please-please.

I'm never gonna learn squat, otherwise.

Oh, and forget compliments. I want to know what you think is glaringly missing. What did I leave out (besides a bit more detail on the background - this is a work in progress) or stuff up?

Sheesh, come to think of it, certain Aussie terms are pretty rude, when you think of it. I mean, the 'f' word is with reference to conventionally-accepted copulation, where "buggah" involves body parts more designed for exit than entrance, yet one hears the latter term even on the telly.

Go figure. It's thoughts like these that kept me out of the really good schools.

Took that layered concept to heart, Lisa: great idea. So, what? hide (make invisible) certain objects and render other ones, so the lighting remains the same? Poser 7 spat the dummy (Aussie-ism, Anthanasius, means: didn't like it and kicked up a fuss) when I added plants and stuff to the foreground. So, I'll be rendering them separately, I guess.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - ... Global Illumination....if you aren't getting any shadows you're doing it wrong.

Might have a look at Vince Bagna's explanation on RDNA:
www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php

Glad I didn't put AO into any of my shaders, now. Not deliberately, mind you. I just didn't know how.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

I have only about a half dozen posts in my gallery , and a handful of comments on each- and ***only 2 comments that i ever recieved were crtitical *** , and i was thankful for those comments .

I dont know how i could only get 2 critical comments when you look at some of the garbage i have up ;-)

PEOPLE there is a CRITIQUE forum ! did you all know that???
It is a DEAD FORUM WHY AREN"T WE USING IT

Let' make it the new "gallery" for those who are more into the technical operation of Poser and more into making our own work, and into critical feedback and learning.

You are not gonna stop the blind praise for crappy renders or snapshots of the grandkids in the gallery. a lot of members obviously like that whole gig and they have a right to enjoy themselves doing it.

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

I agree, Santicor... and I suggest we fill the area under the image with technical specifics that others can analyse and offer suggestions on based on their experience, and thus in the discussions that ensue the blind praisers kinda get phased out (they're going to feel like I have in some of the shader discussions: a bit overwhelmed).
Yes? Good strategy?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Someone wanted shadows..?

Are you using IDLs in this, Noel? Looks like you might have it sorted, then, mate...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Someone wanted shadows..?

Hey, now you've got shadows happening. And the pose is looking more animated.

Quote - Took that layered concept to heart, Lisa: great idea. So, what? hide (make invisible) certain objects and render other ones, so the lighting remains the same? Poser 7 spat the dummy (Aussie-ism, Anthanasius, means: didn't like it and kicked up a fuss) when I added plants and stuff to the foreground. So, I'll be rendering them separately, I guess.

Dig out your Kerkythea manual and read over the layer masking section. The concept is pretty well covered and applies to just about any render engine including FF and 3Delight.

For Poser FF this helps with multiple render passes: Advanced Render Settings , does the grunt work for you.

There used to be something comparable for DS but I don't know if it has been updated for DS3.

Let me repeat though, "Multi-pass rendering is not something that has to be done." Anyone can render a scene, call it a day and sometimes have very good results. However if you want ultimate control over the end result multi-pass rendering + postwork simply can't be beat.

Render in passes and save the generated masks. The masks are very useful for postworking the scene and can be useful in shader building.

Examples:

Decided you want to change the lip color on V4 after all? Are you going to re-render the entire scene or just replace the color on the rendered lip layer in post?

Want to use a mask in the lip shader? Multi-pass render a front orthographic view and use the generated mask as the base to create the shader mask.

Want to change the background? Switch it out in an image editor or re-render the background and just the parts that cast shadows on the background, remix with the original render parts.

Want to have re-lighting available? Add a normal pass then re-light at will in post.

Got a hot spot that you can't fix and keep the the scene integrity in render? Use dodge tool in image editing on the blown out render result or re-render that portion at a lower light intensity and composite in post to balance with the rest of the scene.

Like those tinted B&W pictures? Very easy to do if you render in passes as it significantly simplifies the selection of the area you wish to tint.

The point is to do as much as feasible for any given project in the render engine but create the option to expand the artist interpretation of the piece after rendering the meshes.

I do a lot of archvis at work so I have to retain the flexibility to switch out components quickly at client request. If I had to rely on rendering the scene again every time there was a miniscule change I would get very little done. By rendering in passes I can make changes efficiently.

Granted I don't use Poser or DS for anything important but the concept is the same in any render engine that supports multiple passes. Not using that capability is akin to having a 4-wheel drive vehicle and only driving it on the street. Yeah it works but you're not getting the full utilization of the equipment.

Reading this, I realise I have no clue about multi-pass rendering. I'll dig out that Kerkythea manual and have a read first thing in the morning (it's almost two in the wee hours here, now). Thanks for the enlightenment, Lisa - now if I can just stop blushing long enough to get to sleep....

Got that Advanced Render Settings tool, btw... currently at half price at RDNA.

Great way to confirm to people I'm a fool: ask a stoopid question. lol

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - > Quote - Someone wanted shadows..?

Hey, now you've got shadows happening. And the pose is looking more animated.

I'm thinking she pulled the blade cause she saw the rat's shadow first. The pose looks like she's decided to just step on the vermin instead.:lol:

@Noel

See how adding the shadows affected the interpretation of the scene and along with the posing made it more dynamic? Because of this I was able to imagine the above scenario and have a chuckle....even though it's a simple picture it engaged me as the viewer, without the lighting and pose I would have passed right by it....and what separates art from Art is viewer involvement.

Just to visually enforce the difference for yourself render the same scene without the shadows and compare the two.

My gallery post that asks for suggestions is suffering from bad lighting, I have everything lit but it just doesn't work. Several of the suggestions given pointed out ideas that I was blocked on in this picture so are helpful and exactly what I needed to get over the hump. I haven't reposted because I'm working some of the suggestions into the scene and modeling some additional props but those suggestions that work will be included in the final render.

It also suffers from the ground and background not blending well that I spotted in several of your images so note that it's a fairly common problem. Part of what I have going on is a matter of perspective. The main figures are supposed to be looking out across a desert valley from a cliff edge at sort of noonish during the day and I'm just not getting that separation that shows the effect.

Since I know what's wrong with the picture but am looking for ideas to fix the issues "Great picture" type comments are absolutely nonessential to my goals. I mean wonderful that someone likes the concept but not relevant to agenda. (Yeah, I know, after baldly saying that I'll never get another good comment on any render I post here. Yep, positively blew any chance of being part of the clique.:biggrin:)

Quote - Reading this, I realise I have no clue about multi-pass rendering. I'll dig out that Kerkythea manual and have a read first thing in the morning (it's almost two in the wee hours here, now). Thanks for the enlightenment, Lisa - now if I can just stop blushing long enough to get to sleep....

Got that Advanced Render Settings tool, btw... currently at half price at RDNA.

Great way to confirm to people I'm a fool: ask a stoopid question. lol

Nah, not a "stoopid question", you're just so focused that you don't look at things from other angles sometimes so stop with the blushing already.:biggrin:

The documentation with the Advanced Render Settings tool are pretty informative too and I think there are some tuts here on Rendo concerning the matter, if not "Google is your friend."

Quote-- "Got that Advanced Render Settings tool, btw... currently at half price at RDNA.'

Does this work with P8 ? I noticed a Render Studio For Poser 8

And am I breaking anything in TOS by adding a link?

I dont like that personally ... For all my scene i create new light i never use light set i think it's not the good way to learn lightning a scene ...

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Quote - I dont like that personally ... For all my scene i create new light i never use light set i think it's not the good way to learn lightning a scene ...

Perhaps I did not say correctly. Does RDNA's Advanced Render Settings Tool work with Poser8 ?

Attached Link: Lighting Experiment

I have learned a great deal by loading preset lights and then examining the settings in parameters. I also use the Shadow Cameras to see camera placement. I tend to start with My own default setting and work from there.

Quote - > Quote - I dont like that personally ... For all my scene i create new light i never use light set i think it's not the good way to learn lightning a scene ...

Perhaps I did not say correctly. Does RDNA's Advanced Render Settings Tool work with Poser8 ?

I'll soon find out, won't I, Noel? lol

No seriously, I'll have a go and let you know.

This whole multi-pass render concept is incredible... I did google it and whadaya know, hit on a page with Jeremy Birn's exerpts from his book Digital Lighting & Rendering:
[ www.3drender.com/light/compositing/index.html ]
...which you recommended, Lisa, and now I can see why, thumbing through some of the topics covered. Might have to give myself a Christmas present from Amazon... lol

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

*"Yes? Good strategy?"

*Yes I usually talk about the process a little bit in my little write ups - but now I am going to be more detailed, so to invite only reponses that address the details I mention, and to hopefully get criticism and suggesitons

GOOD IDEA

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Ditto on the book.. HoHoHo

I do have "Advanced Render settings" in My Runtime but I am not sure about its use in P8..

A while back, I was the Critique forum moderator. Kinda quiet but there were a few regular posters in there. Everyone - including me - benefitted from suggestions and advice given in there. I always welcome critical comments on my work.

I rarely postwork, not because I can't but because it bores the hell out of me. Also, I don't see the point in making a so-so render and tarting it up in Photoshop if you are trying to push your knowledge of Poser. For a client, it's a different matter; then I'll use whatever is to hand.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I think the real probleme here in town is, that most people don´t have a real look at an image. Many comments are copied and past only, with the hope to get many comments and faves back. Some have a second, third and fourth account to write and fave own images. A point for this are certainly the sh*** art charts,becourse everybody wants to be the best and at the top of them.

I´m tired of this all, and so I post most of my "nice images" into other galleries.

wow that's pretty heavily into conspirast theory .

you think there's losers that really do that???

why ????

who cares if you top the coments hits chart?

is that going to get you a job or something?

wow if thats true, Sivana, that's cra- zee.

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Quote - I think the real probleme here in town is, that most people don´t have a real look at an image. Many comments are copied and past only, with the hope to get many comments and faves back. Some have a second, third and fourth account to write and fave own images. A point for this are certainly the sh*** art charts,becourse everybody wants to be the best and at the top of them.

I´m tired of this all, and so I post most of my "nice images" into other galleries.

Unfortunately, this is true. I was sucked in by one particular person (who shall remain nameless)..

Two (yes two) images in the gallery, both images high on the charts within a week.. Go figure, all done by giving Everybody glowing comments and putting almost everybody into their Favorite Artist file. Obviously many people responded in Kind.. Too easy to manipulate the charts..

Santicor - doing a render for you at the moment re: your sitemail... and thanks so much for it!

Re: Sivana's point... unfortunately, there's a bit of an ego thing having high chart ratings... but even more dismaying, it's a means of getting your product noticed. Get someone to do a great render and wow, people beat a path to your e-door.

I'm always going to be poor... I'll never be comfortable with these strategies.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote-- "I'm always going to be poor... I'll never be comfortable with these strategies."

AMEN..!!

Quote -
wow that's pretty heavily into conspirast theory .

you think there's losers that really do that???

why ????

who cares if you top the coments hits chart?

is that going to get you a job or something?

wow if thats true, Sivana, that's cra- zee.

Actually, it is true. There have been many cases of that sort of thing happening here in the past. I don't know if they watch IP addresses here and ban clones, but I doubt it.
So I can't point my finger at any one example and say, yeah, that's a clone worshiping himself, but people being what people are, you can count on it being fact that it happens here and happens a lot.
I believe that most (if not all) of the contests are now judged by moderators and coordinators. I'm not sure since I rarely look at any of them but it seems to me the last one or two I checked out weren't open to public voting. They used to be though, before countless allegations of cheating.

Is that going to give you a job or something, you ask?
Well, maybe, maybe not. They do have categories for Most Viewed, Most Commented, and Best Rated, and if I were looking here to find someone with a style I needed in order to commission someone, I would probably look at those categories first.

It's not really conspiracy theory to expect people to lie and cheat and misrepresent, especially when it's a matter of popularity and potentially money.
Look at some of the examples of blatant theft of copyrighted meshes and whatever else by merchants who have attempted to pass other's work off as their own. There have been many examples of that here over the years,. While that's an extreme example of desperation, the fact that it has happened (and will continue to happen) suggests the probability that many many more minor offenses occur unnoticed, such as people using clone accounts to boost their stats.
I wouldn't say everybody does it, or even a majority. I'm sure those who blatantly lie and try to cheat the system are well in the minority, but it would be a very safe bet to make that it does happen and happens frequently.

Cloning account ? it's stupid !!! Sure the person who take that self made a great handjob

It have no sense ...

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this is a an online community. not an art class site, or a training site. it's not even a store with a community, because the community pre-dates the store. a tons of people post just to put up something they like and to have other people they like enjoy it. asking people who post like this to share constructive criticism is like asking people who invite each other to dinner parties to share constructive criticism about cooking. you can complain that everyone is just exchanging pleasantries instead of analyzing the ingredients of the appetizers, but that's not really going to do anything but create discomfort all around.

lots of those popular artists get free products because they put out work quickly, consistently and have a large audience. so even if they're not selling their work, they're part of commerce. and business isn't about being the best, it's about being popular. how you get to be popular is just the means by which you've succeeded in business.

i recently looked at the highest ranked, and i saw some work i didn't think was as good as some of mine, let alone that of the people i follow (most of whom are better than i am). i also saw some images that were absolutely great, truly professional works. sure, there were people on that list who are just part of the group of people who keep commenting and ranking each others' works. but all that meant to me was that i couldn't use the list as a filter to find new and interesting works (and artists), and that even if i ever get back to posting, not to hope to be popular. ever. because i doubt i'll ever be great, and i know i'll never be an online Heather.

if you want constructive criticism a) ask for it each time you post, and b) actually try to use it.

i participated in the "critique group" here, and then the critique forum before it died. i spent a lot of time on critiques of artwork by people who said that they wanted to get better. a lot of time thinking about how they could improve their work in terms of what they seemed to be trying to accomplish and what was already good. it was a pretty large group, but only a few of those people used any criticism at all. most of them just kept doing the same thing they always did, with no changes to lighting, composition, materials, or any techniques. no experiments, no discussion of trying to improve, just the same stuff, and the same explanations.

and that's cool. i still follow a lot of those people, because they're great artists. some i haven't commented on like i used to because i got incredibly busy. i'll probably comment more soon. some i (very frankly) won't bother with because even though they asked for critique all they actually want is affirmation. for me, if the work stays the same, even if i like it, i'll only repeat myself if i feel like it's important to keep someone going as an artist, or i just like the work that much.

it's also cool that some people said they wanted critiques, but then complained when they actually got them. i find that this whole thing is kind of like a bunch of people talking about working out. even with the best of intentions, there's going to be a lot of people who find the actual practice too difficult and uncomfortable. if you're asking for critique, it means you shouldn't be working comfortably. you should be pushing yourself beyond that, to do something difficult. it doesn't matter how you (try to) advance (artistically, technically, conceptually, emotionally, etc.), as long as you take a step in some direction rather than standing in place.

if you're not going to push yourself and take advice (sometimes, you just need to grow in your own direction), don't ask for critiques. because when you really do need them, people probably aren't going to respond.

frankly, for me, technical information is either educational or just noise. 99.9% of the time, the main problems i see aren't technical problems, they're artistic ones. for instance, VSS, IDL and Poser 8 aren't going to help your realism if you follow the current trend and place a front lit figure in front of a gorgeously lit sky (sunset, full moon, etc.). conversely, there's a lot of tropes in western art that have everything to do with norms and nothing to do with realism.

but, in the end, the best way to get good critiques is to give them. back when i was active in the galleries, a few people who posted "wonderfull!!!"and "fabulous!!!" to other people's work would write, "love it, but i wish...." on my work because i was giving pretty thorough critiques (max of 2 hours writing one- yeah, i'm slow).

let me warn, it actually began to hamper my work. because i would start editing myself immediately upon starting. knowing you'll have to read a page or two of critiques after you post can be daunting, as can incorporating past critiques. the downside to self-publishing is losing creative space to the viewers. artists used to have lots of time alone and undisturbed (well, those without children). now we're constantly connected to our audience. can you imagine what the Mona Lisa would look like the general populace had been able to critique it immediately and freely? Van Gogh was unpopular in his time, but can you imagine if he'd been posting here and asking for critiques? we'd either have less of his works, or some boring, mainstream ones.

so find a balance that suits you, and be happy as others find theirs.

Quote - A while back, I was the Critique forum moderator. Kinda quiet but there were a few regular posters in there. Everyone - including me - benefitted from suggestions and advice given in there. I always welcome critical comments on my work.

I rarely postwork, not because I can't but because it bores the hell out of me. Also, I don't see the point in making a so-so render and tarting it up in Photoshop if you are trying to push your knowledge of Poser. For a client, it's a different matter; then I'll use whatever is to hand.

There's definite merit in that, not doing postwork but rather trying to push yourself harder to learn Poser (or Carrara in my case), to get the most of of the render program possible in terms of render and image quality. So it if takes alot of trial and error in doing test renders, (no aa, low pixel accuracy for most of them, medium settings for semi-final proof tests).

Worst thing I hate about post is once you start postwork, the image becomes "static" . On the off-chance a finger isn't wrapped properly around the item in the hand and you don't notice it til after the postwork, or change your mind and make a few more posing adjustments, likely some of that postwork is wasted effort. Same with if your wanting to do multiple camera angle renders. Postwork means redoing alot of it for each different angle to make/bring each image to the same quality.

After all, this is just a hobby. That Render and lighting book 2nd edition does look interesting. Would be worth getting, to see how much more I can improve the the project scene prior to rendering.

I have an idea.

Clearly there are people who want critique, and clearly there are people who do NOT want critique.

Let's make a "club" -- someone whip up a badge in photoshop that people can use to let everyone else know they are interested in actual critique. People wearing the badge, then, can be expected to dish and receive harsh critique on their work, as they want. People without the badge can continue their joyfest.

Good idea?

Quote - this is a an online community. not an art class site, or a training site. it's not even a store with a community, because the community pre-dates the store. a tons of people post just to put up something they like and to have other people they like enjoy it. asking people who post like this to share constructive criticism is like asking people who invite each other to dinner parties to share constructive criticism about cooking. you can complain that everyone is just exchanging pleasantries instead of analyzing the ingredients of the appetizers, but that's not really going to do anything but create discomfort all around.

Double that when sometimes you offer an honest opinion / comment and the artist doesn't like what you said, be it taken negatively or gets insulted by it.

Quote - i recently looked at the highest ranked, and i saw some work i didn't think was as good as some of mine, let alone that of the people i follow (most of whom are better than i am). i also saw some images that were absolutely great, truly professional works. sure, there were people on that list who are just part of the group of people who keep commenting and ranking each others' works. but all that meant to me was that i couldn't use the list as a filter to find new and interesting works (and artists), and that even if i ever get back to posting, not to hope to be popular. ever. because i doubt i'll ever be great, and i know i'll never be an online Heather.

Likewise. I'm not a professional, so this is just a hobby. Something to do, something to learn and get better at, so I don't care about the top charts. Nor do I bother to pay the top charts attention.

Quote - if you want constructive criticism a) ask for it each time you post, and b) actually try to use it.

Good point. Though its rare that anyone either bothers to read and acknowledge such a request. Hence some people asking here outright in the thread for it.

Quote - frankly, for me, technical information is either educational or just noise. 99.9% of the time, the main problems i see aren't technical problems, they're artistic ones. for instance, VSS, IDL and Poser 8 aren't going to help your realism if you follow the current trend and place a front lit figure in front of a gorgeously lit sky (sunset, full moon, etc.). conversely, there's a lot of tropes in western art that have everything to do with norms and nothing to do with realism.

I usually post technical info when I think its relevant. Most usually when I'm using dynamic hair, fog and/or atmospheric effects, the amount of lights used in a scene with type of lighting. Just so that I inform that these are actual render effects, and not done or touched up or done entirely via postwork. It also helps get more specific comments and less generic ones when people see I spent time and accomplished said effects via scene setup and render. And I post technical info when I'm particularly satisfied and/or proud of how the render turned out.

I've noticed the lighting issues as well. Mainly stems from Poser's insistence of 3point lighting, and alot of vendors also provide 3 point lighting. For indoor scenes, or portraits / pin-ups, 3 point lighting is fine. But When you've got outdoor scenes, and you see a figure with orangy secondary light on the opposite side of the main light, maybe where shadows should be instead or standing infront of something which is not producing that orangy light, makes you wonder sometimes.

Theres a couple occasions over sitemail or instant messaging, i'd finish a render, post it, then get told 'i should've used a 3 point light setup' . I thought it was a rule of thumb i read on some site - the less lights you can get away with / need, the better (doing away with excess lights that don't have a place in the scene). For the render at hand, here's one that comes to mind - "Jundland". 1 light is used (either a distant or tube aka florescent), so the dynamic fur behaves naturally picking up the light. That wasn't the issue. It was the comment on the droid (XCC-900) where it was standing in part shadow, somewhat brought on by the big brimmed hat. So, umm, forget the actual lighting effects made by a single ceiling light from slightly infront of them, and place a secondary and tertiary lights on the droid to light up his face more despite having a wide brim hat? and loose the shadow and darkness on the face which really brings out / emphasizing his glowing red eyes? Not to mention pickup 2 more sources of lighting highlights on his reflective metalic blue body? Most of the body is automatically picking up secondary highlights from having a reflective surface and getting those highlights from the ceiling light shining on the floor.

Quote - but, in the end, the best way to get good critiques is to give them. back when i was active in the galleries, a few people who posted "wonderfull!!!"and "fabulous!!!" to other people's work would write, "love it, but i wish...." on my work because i was giving pretty thorough critiques (max of 2 hours writing one- yeah, i'm slow).

Thats also the same way to try to get more original comments rather than cookie cutter ones. By taking time to write a comment based on the image, sometimes the artist acknowledges it, and responds back in kind on a render of mine, or via sitemail, thanking me for the kind words.

Quote - so find a balance that suits you, and be happy as others find theirs.

Well said.

Likewise with a few other renders I like for particular reasons.

Dungeons and Dragons, was a really hard scene to get lit properly, using tube lights set in the light fixtures, and an anything glows light with the florescent tubes and energy bars set to the glow channel. Probably the closest i've unintentionally come to 3 point lighting, but at least the lighting isn't artificial. - Your a scary scary robot - from the same scene, but an earlier light setup as i was still struggling with lighting being either too dark or too bright, but i got an interesting side effect while playing with some glowing eyes.
"Cameron", same portrait as above, but sans eye glow, and using the final light setup in Dungeons & Dragons. (same scene, different camera angle actually). No 3 point lighting, just the overhead light fixtures with tube lights (finally achieved the desired values for them)
LV What???, mainly a distant light, couple weak spotlights on the landing pad with a ship landing, and some spotlights on the reactor in the background. Rest is natural effects and atmospherics.
My Immortal, yes there's postwork, but not corrective postwork to fix the render. Instead, crop and to frame it, where the render froze near the end, and ended up making something more out of the render than initially intended. No dodge & burn, just a properly set sunlight, and having setup subsurface scattering on the skin. I could'v postworked a streaking tear down the cheek, but it was more a fun challenge to actually model one. Also some friendly advice and suggestion helped make this render, as linked to the prior version of it in the notes which was lack-luster. I also made an entirely new render project, and used the rendered image as an in-scene photograph prop.
Point being, I've either been griped at / on those images via sitemail, instant messenger, or at another gallery site. Had I used postwork or multipass renders + postwork on any of them, i'd have not struggled to learn and figure out how to fix and/or improve the lighting setups within carrara. They might not be perfect or "profesional" grade, but i'm satisfied with them as they are.

And you can't please everyone. if I put "pure render, no postwork", some wont care or mind, and say it looks good regardless. Some might go "whoa!" for having accomplished this via pure render. Postwork and multi-pass render advocates might trash it anyways out of jealousy or call it crap for the utter lack of any multi-pass or postwork.

Lastly, for the multi-pass and postwork advocates in this thread - this particular render "Carrara", I offer as my argument to spending the time and effort at trying to get the best out of the render program without resorting to postwork amd multipassing. She's my proudest achievement yet, the cyborg a hugely complex self designed shader that multi-layers a full skin shader and a metalic shader. Say what you want, but, she's ready to go in any scene I use her in. A few weeks dredging and hair pulling in figuring out how to make the shader work, saves the hassle infinitely in the longrun as I don't have to layer and erase parts of multi-renders in postwork. I basically picked up where winston1984 had left off with a generic featureless skin sample over cyborg endoskeleton. And now I can use any character skin set with the metal endoskeleton with a mere drag and drop. Only postwork in the image is the adding of my signature. Had I chosen the other route, using this character in more renders would be a real PIA.

Simply put: (for us hobbyists anyways) If you don't know how to do or achieve a desired effect in Poser or Carrara, spend the time trying to figure it out and accomplish it than resort to the easier postwork method. You'll learn lots from it, and have gained a better understanding of the program, if not even pioneered a new skill within the render program.

Most importantly, the same can be said, as I said earlier regarding the use of Light Sets and Character Poses. You can use light and pose sets to start with, but your not learning anything. If you use a light set but don't examine the settings that make it work, your not learning anything. If you examine the light, play with it, try new parameters on it, you might find you won't have to take it into Photoshop/Gimp to use the dodge or burn tools on some areas, or add shadows. If you use character poses like depending on a crutch, your not learning anything, and your limiting yourself to only the range of preset poses you have in your runtime.

Attached Link: The Challenge

I do use postwork but not to change what I've done, more to enhance it. I work especially hard on lighting and poses, as well as setting the scene, and so I like my images to have a hand drawn look rather than realistic.

FlyByNight

I can see by your number of posts, cobaltdream, (as compared to mine) that you've obviously been in this forum/community/gallery a lot longer and know it for what it is. Thank you for your perspective... it is enlightening.

I've been wanting to improve/learn lighting scenes, since that is perhaps my weakest area. I have joined the critique forum (it still exists) with the hope that if I publish my lighting details and perhaps post some scenes, others more gifted in this area (as you clearly are) could point out where I need to tweak things a bit. I did post an image in the Critique Gallery with what I hoped was exhaustive scene/lighting/props/modes details inviting discussion/direction/constructive comment. There have been a few to comment in such a way that I saw things in a slightly different (excuse the pun) light, Santicor being one of those individuals - and thank you, Santicor.

The current Critique Gallery format doesn't really lend itself well to progressive work displaying, at least, not that I'm aware. I'm happy to be shown differently.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

RobynsVeil - oh, definitely don't judge by number of posts. but yeah, i've been here a long time. you're no newbie, yourself, though!

the forum still exists, but there's next to no activity. compared to the daily critiques i would see posted to various works and gave, it's in a coma even with this renewed interest.

frankly, nothing's going to work consistently unless you either prime the pump, get people to subscribe to your gallery, or both. when we started the critique group we first made it a subscription to each others' galleries. then we switched to a forum, which i warned would kill it. i was told i had no clue what i was talking about. it died not long after that, because people only come to a forum with traffic, and when less and less people post, the number of people who falloff exponentially rises.

it takes time and effort to write good critiques. pretty much no one's going to seek that work consistently. at least not that i've seen. you want a certain response, it's the same here as it is everywhere on the Web: get subscribers. do all the things that people do when they want certain responses to their blog posts: politely ask people for it, and in exchange for offering to comment on their work. or just comment on their work. the same social practice that generates so many views for gushers generates critiques. but if you want feedback from specific people, i'd suggest actually sitemailing them.

just to say, i personally disagree with Spacer_01 about postwork. for me, avoiding postwork would be like openly admitting i'd worked half as hard (if not even less). but that's me. personally, i tend to start with a real world sketch (the reduction really helps), move to posing and composition, add all the lighting and materials (and do lots of research in the forums, then go through 20+ iterations refining lighting and materials), do a final resolution render, do lots of postwork (again, incorporating lots of research), then place the final image in a layout and touch it up design-wise. and i've now started modeling and morphing with Blender. so, for me, the things Spacer_01 does are only a fraction of what makes the final product.

the point being, if you're really looking for critique, it's good to do as he (she?) did and be explicit about your limits (what you will and won't do), and respect others' limits. i wouldn't critique his (her?) work now the way i would have someone else's. looking at those links, there's loads of things i would have suggested that are pretty much impossible without a new (expensive) tool set. and even then, i'm not sure, since all of the people i've seen use those tools also use postwork. so it would probably be best just not to give that feedback, and restrict my comments to those that fit within the program's capabilities. especially since he (or she? i'm taking no chances) has expressed an antipathy for that type of feedback.

basically, part of the effort involved with doing a good critique is putting away your personal taste and choices, and responding to someone else's. there's a difference between suggesting growth in an area and trying to fight their work style.

RobynsVeil - what you say about progressive works is true. it's one of the reasons in the gallery i'm working on for myself (back to the grind tomorrow!) i plan to allow multiple images per gallery "item." here, i'd suggest posting more than one version to the galleries and a forum thread. the only thing you lose is all the comments in one place, but you lose that anyway if you post to galleries and forums. forums really aren't ideal for showing off images, in any case. either you link to the image, which makes it unclear where to comment, or you place the image inline, which can break the forum display and never looks optimal.

This is an absolutely fantastic and wonderful thread! WOW!

Not exactly staying ON TOPIC.. But it IS FUN...!!

And VERY informative.

Here's OT OT. Why won't my avatar .gif animate?

Quote - just to say, i personally disagree with Spacer_01 about postwork. for me, avoiding postwork would be like openly admitting i'd worked half as hard (if not even less). but that's me. personally, i tend to start with a real world sketch (the reduction really helps), move to posing and composition, add all the lighting and materials (and do lots of research in the forums, then go through 20+ iterations refining lighting and materials), do a final resolution render, do lots of postwork (again, incorporating lots of research), then place the final image in a layout and touch it up design-wise. and i've now started modeling and morphing with Blender. so, for me, the things Spacer_01 does are only a fraction of what makes the final product.

At least we're keeping it civil. I guess we can agree to disagree regarding preferences about postwork. We both spend our time doing what we each think is important in the workflow to complete the image.

Looking through your gallery, its nice to see both raw and finished versions, so the edits and postwork vs raw can be compared.

;)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Reading for comprehension is definitely a dying skill.

Nothing I can say in reply to the blatant misrepresentation of what I've posted that won't violate the TOS so I'm out.

[OT] well, sort of. i think i'll actually stop that when i get back into it. it's a little too much gallery spam, and not very flexible. frankly, the comments i got showed more confusion about duplication, and it just split the feedback in an unmeaningful way. and people would post corrections that were already taken care of in the final version, so i'd waste their time, too.

but most of all, it puts the wrong emphasis on my work. for me it's not about random aspects of the renderer, it's about the overall finished product. at certain point, you can end up with theoretically perfect and artistically void work, and that's where i was heading. my most effective and popular work by far was way before i discovered any skin shader, before i discovered inverse squared lights, before i started using IBL much. i need to get back to that place, not further away.

and frankly, my technical process was rather involved when i last posted, and will pretty definitely become more so. for instance, i need to use Matmatic more, and i'll probably do anti-correction per material and correction on the final render, rather than either way. but then, i ask a lot of questions in the forums, and get pretty thorough answers from awesome and generous experts. and since i'm now at a place where the answer is, "upgrade your software," there's not much to discuss.[/OT]

Quote - :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Reading for comprehension is definitely a dying skill.

Nothing I can say in reply to the blatant misrepresentation of what I've posted that won't violate the TOS so I'm out.

but you had some really useful information about multi-pass rendering. i'd go even further and say it's helpful for more than just making changes to the composition itself. there's lots of things you can do artistically with shadows, highlights, reflections, etc. as layers that you just cannot achieve through rendering. and in an image editor, you can do it non-destructively and change it in 2 seconds, rather than wait hours for a print res image to re-render.

To be back on topic, I used to be bothered by the cut and paste comments of some but I've found that when you don't rush over and leave the same inane comments on their art they stop leaving comments on yours. Thank you for small favors. :o)

Most of the people who take the time to leave a comment on my work are those who actually like my stuff. And they are not bothered by the fact that I don't pop over into their galleries and comment. I just don't have the time. I only have one favorite artist in my faves and he doesn't allow comments anymore.

I spend any free time I have working in Poser and stopping in the forums when I can. There's always good info to catch, like in this thread, and a laugh to be had now and then.

FlyByNight

Quote -
For people just starting out, I think positive critique is great to encourage them to post more and develop their skills. Then after maybe a few pics, people might add a comment or two on what could be done better. It's all in the way its handled and lets face it, some people use kid gloves while others use an iron fist.

Totally agree - n00bs should be encouraged, but it's easy to spot a n00b by the small number of gallery images and the total lack of quality. My problem is when you get someone churning out terrible stuff for years with no sense of improvement - galleries full of awful work just demonstrates some people must either have no desire to improve, or just aren't aware that what they're doing is awful. Like when people use Comic Sans because they think it's 'casual'. Such people should be educated; it's not 1996 any more!

Quote -
Many comments are copied and past only, with the hope to get many comments and faves back. Some have a second, third and fourth account to write and fave own images. A point for this are certainly the sh*** art charts,becourse everybody wants to be the best and at the top of them.

I don't doubt it - and a few changes to the rules would stop this from happening. Limit the number of comments per day (20 is reasonable), and limit the number of accounts per IP address to a max of 2 or 3 (it's feasable you could share computer/network with another Rosity user).

Renderosity is a community, but at it's heart, it's an ART community. People are missusing comments and accounts for financial/egotistical gain by giving hollow, meaningless info - it's just like link ghosting, where a website clones all the links from a proper database website (like yellow Pages, or whatever) - you end up with duplication of information for financial gain. And it's holding back the reputation of Renderosity. If the directors of this website meet up and try to figure out how to improve the site's reputation, profits, quality and stability (a site built on meaningless empty praise will soon find how vagrant their 'community' is, when trouble strikes) - they need only look at their poclicies of dealing with the people who use that community.

You wonder why Rosity is rolling out the 'CGSpree' once more? It's probably because they're desperate to keep the show rolling; they're against the ropes because the sycophantic clientelle they pander to in their policy loopholes are dragging them into a cycle of financial loss. You can't base a community on emptiness; whether it's promises of support, or blind positivity - once it hits the fan this sort of community will leave you.

No doubt this thread will be locked, because of the horse flogging, but I think allowing a shallow culture to prevail is a symptom of money-grabbing, and is simply not a robust way to run a business. If Rosity makes it through the current financial climate, it'll either be fluke, or virtue of policy change.

but I've found that when you don't rush over and leave the same inane comments on their art >they stop leaving comments on yours. Thank you for small favors. :o)

Yes, and that is the sticking point here. You don´t get a comment or fave becourse your image is good but becourse you "buy" the comments for your images with your comments to other images. That´s childish, thinking about how old most of this famous artists are ;-)

LOL, yeah I am one of the oldies. I just enjoy doing my thing and sharing it. If people like it and comment, great, if not, I'll survive. I'm just happy to have a place to hang my stuff. :o)

FlyByNight

The only way I've found to get constructive critisism is to specifically ask for it. If I want, as an example, to get comments on how to improve lighting within a particular scene I'll specifically ask if anyone has a suggestion or recomendation about improving the lighting. That way no one feels put off by making a suggestion. I've also found that doing that it's usually only the people with enough expertise to be a real help that respond to the request. Others continue to post the usual sort of comments.

Spacer_01 - I have, from time to time, reworked some of my images and left the old ones in the gallery to show the "improvements". Now and again, I look at some of my old images and think about doing them all over again. Then I think, for the most part, I can't be bothered, because, technical shortcomings aside, I said what I wanted to say at the time.

That's not to say some of 'em won't get revisited one day. All depends on how I feel.

At least with an online gallery, there's less chance of me throwing them away when I've finished. I'm known for trashing a lot of my "real" artwork once it's done, unless it's for sale or a specific person. Over the past 30-odd years of pro and semi-pro work, I have maybe half a dozen pieces.

I'm about to face a new challenge, though. I have to learn to paint bunnies, teddy bears, kittty cats and puppies for my new little boy. :) When I suggested to his mommy they should be in space armour, blowing the hell out of each other, she told me to boil my head. :D

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Quote - LOL, yeah I am one of the oldies. I just enjoy doing my thing and sharing it. If people like it and comment, great, if not, I'll survive. I'm just happy to have a place to hang my stuff. :o)

:) While I'm not one of the oldies, the rest is spot on!

i7 6800 (6 core/12 thread), 24 GB RAM, 1 gtx 1080 ti (8GB Vram) + 1 Titan X (12GB Vram), PP11, Octane/Poser plugin, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Oh, and a wiener dog!

I have gained many friends here in the galleries and I enjoy leaving comments or private jokes for them. BUT.. It is so time consuming, Looking at images and leaving just "Nice work" or "Wonderful lighting" takes so Much time.. Posting to the CRITIQUE FORUM does not work very well either..!

Attached Link: Snarlygribbly

I've just come to this forum for the first time and this thread was immediately the most compelling - the original poster's views mirror my own exactly.

Apologies if this has already been said, but when you upload an image you get to choose the sort of feedback you want (critical, non-critical or both). Surely nobody's going to be upset if they get critical comments when they've chosen the option that invites them?

Anyway, if any of you want to make critical comments on my work I'd be delighted to hear them and take them in the positive, constructive way that I'm sure they will be meant. It'd be very helpful to me were you to do so.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=Snarlygribbly

Likewise, I'd be more than happy to reciprocate - just let me know which images you're specifically inviting coments on and I'll offer my opinions, for what they're worth!

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

i have come to accept it as reality. An unavoidable and all together unpleasant reality. But, reality none the less.

and I love the petunia Hitchhiker's Guide reference.

Quote - Anyway, if any of you want to make critical comments on my work I'd be delighted to hear them and take them in the positive, constructive way that I'm sure they will be meant. It'd be very helpful to me were you to do so.

The images themselves are fairly well put-together and highly imaginative. You might want to give a bit of story-line or what was going through your mind (what was your inspiration) when you created the image. Something.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - The images themselves are fairly well put-together and highly imaginative. You might want to give a bit of story-line or what was going through your mind (what was your inspiration) when you created the image. Something.

Yes, I've been a little lazy in that respect. It's not just laziness - I do like to let the viewer draw their own conclusions without giving them too many preconceptions. However, I do see what you're saying and I could (should) write something about what motivated me to produce the image, and I can probably do that without compromising my desire to let the viewer read into the image what they choose to.

Well, at least there's a holiday coming up so I should be able to find the time to write a few notes against each image!

Thank you.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

You're quite welcome - nicely finished images... you are really quite clever.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Apologies if this has already been said, but when you upload an image you get to choose the sort of feedback you want (critical, non-critical or both). Surely nobody's going to be upset if they get critical comments when they've chosen the option that invites them?

While I agree with this and make sure that every time I upload an image, I have this option selected.. most people who upload just leave the default settings and upload without thinking about what it says. In my experience here, the same group of people get the same comments from the same other groups of people which places them in the top commented and rated sections of the galleries.

I would love more critical comments on my images, I joined this site originally for the free stuff (I won't lie) but I've grown to appreciate what I've learned. Awhile back we had the critique group which worked out well at the time.. not exactly sure what happened to it, I think it has its own gallery now?

Someone had said earlier in the thread about how some aspect of post work could take 2 minutes while rendering would take an hour.. I laugh a bit at that because most of my end results with post work is something that takes 2-3 hours in post work but saves me 12 hours or more of rendering coughatmospherescough

Anywho, thats my $0.02

Attached Link: My Gallery

If You like what You have done. POST IT... If others like it, they may comment.

If they don't, they probably won't..!!

Just don't expect "Art class" quality criticism..!!

I can't agree with you, Wolf359: there is no point i simply reinventing the wheel.
The Poser GUI is not intuitive, yet artists are, so computer programmers really do need to consider more intuitive GUIs, and that terms like 'Math', or 'Graph' can turn people away from the programme they have invested so much in writing. If someone has a technical question then why not just give them the reply.

My .02: most users (including myself, usually, to be perfectly honest) are just playing most of the time. Although I do welcome well-thought-out critical comments, the truth is that it's very unlikely I'm gonna go back to very many of my images and perfect them at this point.

Maybe because I'm still a relative novice, and at some point I'll want to be more serious, I dunno.... but my life is so full it's hard for me to envision devoting (say) 40 hours to an image.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

If I like something, I'll say what. If something looks good but could be great or mind-blowing with some tweaks, I'll outline what to and how if I know. I'll give anyone suggestions and critiques as politely as possible. If I see something that just sucks, I won't even bother saying anything.

If something shows promise and I happen to know some tricks to make the image kick ass, I'll be happy to share any techniques I have. If I screw something up and don't catch it, point it out!

If you can't stand criticism--don't post to the internet..:laugh: It NEVER hurts to try to be polite,though.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!

I just took a look through the beginnings of my gallery, and holy schnikes are those pieces riddled with errors!! (Hell even my newer pieces I think "Well, crap, I could have done [so-and-so] differently and it would have looked better.") But I also seemed to have a lot more comments too. Maybe it was because I was a noobie poster, I don't know... but I was never averse to receiving cosntructive criticism. I do kind of feel like reworking them in a new span of time with the knowledge I've gained... maybe at a later date. But over time I've run into several people that actually tell me something they like about the picture, or they offer some advice on how to fix it. I actually LOVE getting constructive feedback.

My commenting habits are pretty straightforward - if I like it, I'll say something I like about it. If it really sticks out to me I'll fave it. Simple, no? And if, over time, I like enough of a person's work, I'll add them as a favorite artist. This by no means indicates that i think any one person is a bad artist, because I don't believe that's the right thing to do. If something doesn't strike my fancy, then I leave it be. Nothing more complex than that.

I'm not perfect in what I do by any means; I'm always looking to improve, and I'm still trying to carve out where my creative niche is. By the by, on the subjecct of asking advice on how to achieve certain looks in renders... if there's a technique I particularly like in someone else's art, I'll go ahead and ask how they did it. Why? I'm still learning my way around particular software, so a little guidance can be a good thing. Half the time I don't do the exact advice either - I'll try it out, and in the end I'll make a boatload of changes to make it my own. That is what art is, right? Inspiration, evolution and growth?

And when I post, I post to share my work. If you like it great. If not, I'm sorry I wasted 5 seconds of your life. shrug

Plain and simple.

Survive Entertainment

Exclusive Artwork!

YAAAAAAAY! GROWTH AND STUFF! That's it. That is what we are ALL about!:laugh:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!

Garbage gallery software is the root of it. All people are looking to do is give a nice acknowledgment to a render they liked. Who is stupid enough to expect solid analysis? You can't even rate a pic, and having anything other than a recommend is the only rating there should be, without leaving a comment of a certain length. The software sucks and it drains the life out of the comments.

Quote - Garbage gallery software is the root of it. All people are looking to do is give a nice acknowledgment to a render they liked. Who is stupid enough to expect solid analysis? You can't even rate a pic, and having anything other than a recommend is the only rating there should be, without leaving a comment of a certain length. The software sucks and it drains the life out of the comments.

?... Can You explain "Software"..?

Quote - ?... Can You explain "Software"..?

http://www.bondware.com/?AID=1

I think Rosity and these guys are actually one and the same. They're both Central time zone. This gallery comments/ratings stuff is an argument as old as the internet. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to click on one of my pics let alone takes the effort to say something nice. :O)

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Stoopid, blindly positive comments on gallery images.