I'm going to muse poetic about something I know nothing about, but humor me... there is a point.

The recent release of the new figure "Little One" has set me to thinking about the whole 3d Poser/Daz industry.

There are too many figures out there.

My belief is that modelers see creating a new character as their ticket to large profits (or fame et al.) I think the opposite is true.

Let's take a look at Clark. He was a rather handsome young man, and I bought him early in his life-cycle. I bought the first flurry of clothing that was released. As I used him, I kept waiting for the rest of the stuff I needed to make him truly useful. It never came. Most of the things created for Clark have cycled out of the Rendo stores, and I've actually deleted him from my runtime because I can't use him nearly as effectively as my other characters.

And it's not about cost. It's about support. Look at how poorly supported the native Poser characters are. Yes, my own opinion is they are ugly as sin and poorly rigged, all the way back to Poser 4, but put that aside. Apollo Max anyone? He's free, some artists think he's the be-all and do-all of Poserdom... and you still don't find 1% of the things available for him that are out there for the Daz meshes.

Where am I going with this? It's a plea to the talented modelers out there to stop wasting their time and build things that are actually going to be of use to the community. Perhaps someone needed a toon little girl... but we don't need three of them, none of which have enough support to sneeze at!

Once I buy a new character, I realize that like adopting a child, I've made a far larger commitment than meets the eye. They need hair, clothing, shoes, accessories... it's a big financial commitment. So much so that I'm very choosy these days. I'm a V4/M4 user. Period. I've found that those meshes do what I need, do it very well, can be morphed into a character of almost any age, and give me a great deal of bang for my buck. If you bring out a new character, you've got to show me where it's going to not only fill a niche, but gain support so that it will be truly useful. Again, look at all the free content that comes with Poser, and look in the galleries to see what percentage of the art is derived from them.

Little One is cute as she can be. If she were a morph for V4 I'd buy her in an instant and use her like crazy. But a new mesh? Hope for new clothing? Buy new clothing?

Afraid not.

Please guys and gals... I'm not talented enough to do what you do. Please stop wasting your time on dead ends, and get back to creating materials for the mainstream characters that ARE useful. (Which will hopefully not include more thongs and other slutwear!)

BTW... I will not respond to further posts to this thread. I'm not wanting to argue, just to make my plea. So, flame away.

My $.02

I actually agree with you for the most part.
Even though I have many figures, Poser 6, 7 and 8 figures that came with the programmes, plus Olivia and Miki 2....I mostly use V4, V3 [not much these days], M4 and M3 [more than M4 because I have more outfits for M3 than M4]......so your point is well made!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, too. You make a lot of good points.

I do like having other characters around (like Aiko 3 or David 3) that have a different structure or height than V4 / M4.

Besides there are certain limitations on how you can morph a mesh based on its topography. V4 happens to have an extremely good mesh structure.

I like having options. That's why Andrew (EvilInnocence) has made a small fortune on me with Crossdresser licenses. I'm addicted to clothing conversion. One license is about the price of a piece of well-made clothing. Seems like a good investment to me.

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Me on my part dont agree, the more the merrier!

I try to buy most humanoids released (and some toony ones) as i collect them as pieces of art, even if I never use a figure I never regret acquiring it.

Since you spend so much money in figures, you should really consider investing in Crossdresser or Wardrobe Wizzard licences. Personally I´m a fan of crossdresser license system, but now Poser 8 comes with WW, great deal, I´m now starting to use it for the P8 figures.

Ah basicwiz, it's an argument as long as this community...lol.

I happen to love Nursoda's little imps (see avatar). I've gotten used to the limited amount of accessories for them ;o).

Of course, if I were a more enterprising lass I'd be making stuff for them myself, but alas, I'm no modeler, just a lowly texturer ;o). So I can change out the textures for variety, but not much else. This however, is not the end of the world. I can use a morph brush too (which also works on clothing)...hehe.

I do agree there is limited support for figures other than the Daz messes. However, it's the popularity of those figures themselves that drives the Poser market. If most didn't use them, the extra clothes, poses, hair, etc. would not sell. So I guess those of us who can't model have but two choices: make do without the extra stuff or learn to model and make our own stuff ;o). Maybe it would start a trend...

Laurie

Quote - Since you spend so much money in figures, you should really consider investing in Crossdresser or Wardrobe Wizzard licences. Personally I´m a fan of crossdresser license system, but now Poser 8 comes with WW, great deal, I´m now starting to use it for the P8 figures.

Good point. I asked EvilInnocence for licenses for Kena, Kali, etc. but as of yet there are none :o(.

Laurie

Quote: *other than the Daz messes.

*Hey Laurie, I do hope that was a slip of the keyboard!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Quote - Quote: *other than the Daz messes.

*Hey Laurie, I do hope that was a slip of the keyboard!!

Goodness! I didn't say that out loud, did I??!

In all fairness, I use Daz figures...lol. I just wish there was more competition ;o).

Laurie

Yeah, you need either support via clothing, hair, and character packs, and something like WW .

IMO, I think for a new figure to really work, you need to get with several of the clothing designers and character/hair makers and work together on getting a character started. You need a number of items from the start to get people interested enough to buy it and you need to keep producing items for it.

I also think that newer or unsupported characters might be a good way for newer people to learn how to model, rig, and design and to get themselves a little bit of notice that it would be harder for them to get in a crowded daz market... but I'm also not saying that's the best or perfect solution either.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Makes me wonder what's going to happen to Antonia when (and if) she's finally ever ready. She's got a shot at being the best Poser figure ever, but I think you're right, it will come down to how much secondary support she gets.

I'd rather stay in my lane than lay in my stain!

Attached Link: Challenge to the Poser Community: I Dare!

**basicwiz**, see my remap postings!

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

And I've updated the old Zygote knight too.

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

And now, both remapped figures together. We don't NEED new figures, what we need to do is RETOOL the ones we've already got!! dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

It seems to me you could distribute figures as say a single stripped .obj morph to the V3 geometry and then an injection pose for the new JPs for the reshaped geometry.

The V3 mesh is very robust topology, the male and female unimesh textures are plentiful and there would be no copyright issues with the distribution if done with a morph and rigging pose. I think Clothes Morph could make a fast job of converting clothes to such a figure.

The real problem with "characters" as opposed to original figures is that people don't morph the tell-tale features like nostrils, nares, nose tip, eyeshape and ears.

well, it's like anything else, ya 'go where the money is'. Offering the basic Daz figures for free is a marketing move; since you're limited into how much you can change them unless you start buying morphs, morphs+, morphs++, morphs^2/3+(17x-9), etc...;)

Having not tried my hand at modeling actual characters (mainly robots), it's a lot of work to not only do the model, but rig, UVMap, etc. It all takes time, and if something doesn't catch on, you may get frustrated, or lose interest. I can't speak for others, but I've got boatloads of characters, and I'm happy if they have clothes at all...;)

I just wish there was a better tracking system between Vx, and 'clothes for Vx' (woops, Vx is a nerve gas, but I didn't mean it that way...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

I believe PhilC will make the Wardrobe Wizard character fits (Def) for new characters if the modeler sends him the character. I would be interested in purchasing "Little One" and model for her if she becomes WW compatable.
cheerio
lululee

I tell you... Stahlratte made good Toons, Ogres etc from Poser 4 Nea... look great with FF smoothing. Posette had a descent mesh, just need some sculpting and smoothing but I tell you a lot of Posettes or Neas or Eves both male and female can fit in one render.

I wonder why David never remapped Nea to V3 texture... that would be a fierce tool.

"I wonder why David never remapped Nea to V3 texture... that would be a fierce tool."

Actually, since Nea is basically Posette with a new set of teeth and and a slight alteration in the shape of the head (but not its geometry) all that I'd need to remap is the head itself, after Icloned it onto Posette's body. I'll consider doing NeaV3 very soon. I also want to remap the Zygote Nude Asian Woman (anyone still remember her?)
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Well said , I only purchase content for V4 and V3 as well now. New figs. are going to have to prove themselves worthy for the investment.

Antonia is a great figure, just great :o). I can't wait until she's ready for prime time ;o). There ARE a lot of people working on her, but it remains to be seen how much support she'll get in the end. I hope lots! :o)

Laurie

Quote - The real problem with "characters" as opposed to original figures is that people don't morph the tell-tale features like nostrils, nares, nose tip, eyeshape and ears.

Really? I do that in morphing characters. It's the only way to make a custom morph look original. I guess if you just use the parameter dials you're a lot more limited.

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Quote -
My belief is that modelers see creating a new character as their ticket to large profits (or fame et al.) I think the opposite is true.

well, i'm pretty sure you're wrong. every figure i've seen in development has been done an opportunity to do something the "mainstream" characters couldn't or didn't. like bend properly, or have proper anatomy, or morph to various characters, etc.

or just have the appearance and style the creator wants.

Quote -
Please guys and gals... I'm not talented enough to do what you do. Please stop wasting your time on dead ends, and get back to creating materials for the mainstream characters that ARE useful. (Which will hopefully not include more thongs and other slutwear!)

why should they waste time making a figure they hate or just aren't that into into one they kind of sort of like when they can make one they love? the thing is, merchants aren't here just to please us. they're artists, too, and only a very few make more than enough to feed this hobby. most won't benefit from entirely sacrificing their artistic vision to suit a few customers they have.

and the ones that have a large enough customer base already work hard enough on stuff everyone likes that it seems petty to begrudge them the small percentage of time and effort they spend on their pet projects rather than, say, hair for the latest DAZ female.

if you want materials for mainstream characters, why not learn to make them yourself? it seems presumptuous to tell someone they're wasting their time because they're not compensating for your inability to make stuff for the characters you like and doing work they enjoy and prefer.

Hey David... I would love a remapped Nea. Didn't know how much the mesh was/wasn't Posette.
David, do you have renders of the old Zygote Nude Asian Woman and Nude Young Woman? Do you or anyone else have Aura Posette-HiRes?

andolaurina, some of the top character sellers I can't tell one character from the other or really from the V4 default, I think a lot of top vendors just dial spin as opposed to doing original morphs... the way V4 is set-up people are shy of trying to distribute original morphs. Adam Thwaites I guess does original morphs and cheap sets of original morphs and magnets for making characters without the Daz morphs. Dimension3D I think also makes his own inexpensive morph sets for all different figures including well neglected ones. I use some great third party Judy and Jessie morph sets... I also like the glue-on heads like Neftis made... Infinity for SP3 and DigiCalimero's Eszter for V3. Bought them long before I had a mchine powerfull enough to even work with V3!

momodot - i think you once posted an image of a morph of the DAZ mill teen (version 2) as a middle aged woman that absolutely floored me.

i agree with you 100%. I could never figurre out why the older figures were never outfitted with new textures, etc. Seems to me a mesh is pretty much a mesh. thanks for doing your work :)

Quote - And now, both remapped figures together. We don't NEED new figures, what we need to do is RETOOL the ones we've already got!!
dph

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Quote - Me on my part dont agree, the more the merrier!

I try to buy most humanoids released (and some toony ones) as i collect them as pieces of art, even if I never use a figure I never regret acquiring it.

Agree, and agree with getting XD licenses etc. to reduce the need to spend loads of money on support.

I wish more figures were made.

I almost can't believe someone could think that the effort needed to make new figures would be better used on V4 character morphs and V4 clothes. That's what we're short on??

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Quote - > Quote - The real problem with "characters" as opposed to original figures is that people don't morph the tell-tale features like nostrils, nares, nose tip, eyeshape and ears.

Really? I do that in morphing characters. It's the only way to make a custom morph look original. I guess if you just use the parameter dials you're a lot more limited.

You do a good job making figures look different from the base, but you're still stuck with the expression morphs the figure comes with. If you get too radical those stop working well. I can't remember if your characters resize/move the eye, but that's a potential annoyance too

And obviously if you get too crazy changing the body shape or proportions, you'll have clothing problems

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

I suppose if you're making a new figure, expecting to get rich from the sales, you could be said to be wasting your time. The investment of time required to create and rig a human for Poser is huge, and it's even worse if you're still on the learning curve. In most cases, you would make more money spending that time on a part time job where there's a minimum wage at least.

Most people are probably bright enough to understand that it's not about the money when they commit to creating a new Poser figure. It's about learning and expanding your abilities. Its about artistic expression. There is a joy in realizing that you can create something wonderful.

Catering to the desires of the Poser market is not for everyone. While it is true that you can create costumes and hair for existing figures in a fraction of the time that it takes to make a new figure, the deflated prices for Poser content makes this a hobby too, for nearly everyone involved.

PhilC has been very supportive of obscure figures with Wardrobe Wizard. This seems to make the original poster's point moot. Why throw away that Andy Kaufman-looking Clarke figure you love so much when you can convert existing clothing for it?

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

I have written and deleted three full, multi-paragraph, replies to this thread. Deleted in part out of fear but also because I came off a bit harsh.

The problem, as i see it, is three fold. The figure creators aren't aware they have to stick around to support their figures (at least, not at first...hindsight and all). The community won't buy it if there's no support. The content creators won't support it if the community doesn't buy it. So Poserdom as a whole is both the cancer and the cure. Embrace change.

If there's a character you like but notice no support is being given, request it - first from the figure creator and then from the community.

Be willing to pay - free is great but come on, a guy's got to earn a living and have incentive to continue producing.

Don't fire and forget - if you're going to make something, support it - think beyond your initial idea.

If you like a character, spread the word - popularity starts with you or you can be a slave to what has come before. Your choice.

That, I think is the road to recovery. There, I think I managed to reply without offense and without getting myself in trouble at work, lol.

I have a question before I run back to bed (I'm on vacation - it has sucked - birthday tomorrow):

What does the community have against toon characters? When we go to the movies and we see Spirits Within or Polar Express, we hate the films because of how stiff and unreal (ie uncanny valley) the figures are. When we see Toy Story, Shrek (the first, I pretend the rest don't exist ...including the 4th on the way), or Coraline, we fall for the characters. So my question is, why is the community so against figures like that? I have yet to see a successful toon character. I guess the Girl could count but that's one among hundreds.

I got into this thing because I wanted to make monsters and toons. I can't make monsters right now - which sucks but that's another story - and there's little point in making toons only to see them sit on the shelf and collect dust. So what is it? Is it the difficulty in morphing outside of the original shape but maintaining the style that is the poblem? Is it some unkown aversion to enjoying at home the same thing you pay to see in theaters? What?! lol. Seriously. I had this whole line of toons I wanted to create - very Pixar like stuff if I can say that - but I don't think they'll see the light of day because of the lukewarm reception. Is it that they fall victim to the same problem in the first half of my post?

Quote - What does the community have against toon characters?

I think toons are less popular than realistic figures because they're not perceived as very sexy usually.

I am pretty sure anyone who says something like

Quote - Perhaps someone needed a toon little girl... but we don't need three of them

Doesn't even use one of them.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Quote -
I got into this thing because I wanted to make monsters and toons. I can't make monsters right now - which sucks but that's another story - and there's little point in making toons only to see them sit on the shelf and collect dust. So what is it? Is it the difficulty in morphing outside of the original shape but maintaining the style that is the poblem? Is it some unkown aversion to enjoying at home the same thing you pay to see in theaters? What?! lol. Seriously. I had this whole line of toons I wanted to create - very Pixar like stuff if I can say that - but I don't think they'll see the light of day because of the lukewarm reception. Is it that they fall victim to the same problem in the first half of my post?

first of all, i think it depends on your perception of popularity. Lady Littlefox's toons seem to be doing pretty well, imho. as have the Toon Baby, Nursoda's figures, and other cuties. no, they're not V4 and M4, but only those figures are. V4 has that circular popularity logic that's self sustaining, she's the only one that can come out with any number of faults and the populace will still say, "Well, merchants will fix them. You can't expect perfection." not even M4 is viewed so uncritically.

and i think a lot of people who use toons are part of other communities and don't post here. like the people into furry characters. that said, i figure you know more about comic and toon based communities than i do, as well as how well Lady Littlefox actually does in sales.

so the next issue i'd say is: this isn't an animation community. there _is_no animated form of Michael Whelan, or Boris Vallejo, or Brom. i think there's only one Frazetta animation. conversely, you look at still CG and it's dominated by SF and fantasy illustration. well, to judge by book covers and such, the old guard is oil painters and the new guard is photomanipulators. and that influences what work people do here, more than what Pixar or Dreamworks does.

part of making something a toon is making it exaggerated and unreal. that's just the opposite of what most people trying to bring their imagination to life want. and Shrek may have be popular, but Pirates of the Caribbean is more so.

lastly, i think the thing is that by being exaggerated and unreal, toons are also individual. the whole point of buying a figure is to make your own artwork, not someone else's. if you want a toon figure more successful than what's out there now, you have to really think about how to make a toon that can be just as versatile as V4 in terms of genre, style, etc. i mean, Pixar's Incredibles are nice, but that's one movie. they don't look anything like the people in Ratatouille. i can't see trying to make any of either of those fit in either of the other's movies just in terms of storyline. but i could easily imagine both of those storylines with versions of any generation of DAZ figure (and their morphs). you need to make figures others can project their vision onto just as well as you can.

just as V4 stylistically fits the average of look this community wants, you'd have to discover the average of what this community wants a toon to look like and deliver it. i don't know if that would be worth it to you, especially since i think the prior two issues are going to limit the effectiveness of sacrificing your specific artistic vision to popular opinion. to go further, i'm not sure there is a single norm for looks in toons in the Western community (which we largely are) the way there is for real women. i mean, millions of dollars are spent on media in various forms promoting very consistent looks for women. and V4 basically fits that look. that level of uniformity just doesn't exist for comics or animation. at least not yet. that may change now that Disney owns Marvel.:rolleyes:

Some really good points. I do disagree somewhat here and there though. I think effort and a desire to create something different, is a big part of creating a figure and toons may require more effort on the part of someone making a morph than your average figure would. It doesn't make it any less worthwhile an effort. That's the whole point of morphing right? Making something your own. Again, the community needs to step up and meet creators half way. I had ideas for a Universal man/woman toon that would accompany my Lightning Man series of characters. A pair of figures that could be turned into Joe and Joanna Public so to speak. I won't release them - or more to the point, won't be allowed to do so - until it seems like there's a viable reason. Conversely, people are constantly trying to turn the semi-realistic face of Victoria and Michael into Anime versions (anime is fairly exaggerated when last I checked). Why force something so far on the opposite end into something toon when you can start with a toon and work an anime face far more easily? So no, I don't agree that style is that big of an issue, I think it's a matter of effort and thinking beyond the four walls of the last 10 years.

While the majority of people posting here at Renderosity and RDNA - and maybe even at DAZ, aren't animators, Poser and its content is used in animation all the time. From broadcast to web to gaming. So there is a market for that and benefits and drawbacks to making models designed for that purpose, I admit. However, I don't think it will have any affect on the work that can be created with them. Again, it's a matter of thinking beyond what people have come to know. See the attached image. It's a model film res, by a Dreamworks animator (about 50,000 polys). Looking at the shaded view, it appears to be your typical realistic character. Looking at the mesh, we can see how simple the topology is, thus lending it self to a wide range of morphs. Granted, things like muscles may not be as easy to define but it's possible to do with a spot of effort thrown in. I think attempts at innovation should be supported and explored. This can only be done through the creation of new content though and in many cases, that means new figures.

While I can't say how well Lady Little Fox does, I do know those toons do well, though I had forgotten about them. It's funny that they slipped my mind, as they are often the thing that sparks the fire in me to make toons...before I am smacked with the reality. So perhaps it's simply a matter of reaching the right customer or perhaps going purely cute? I don't know, toon attempts outside of cutesville seem to rarely show up. I just think the feeling that new characters aren't needed is misguided (and I sorely want more toons/toon genres to become popular personally).

It's true that there already are a bunch of figures out there. However, each figure is a character and has certain characteristics and while the better morph creators try to stray from those characteristics, they can tell you it's not easy and they are among the minority. Developing new figures is a sure fire way to avoid sameness. It's also a way to express and improve artistically. Modeling is an art driven by desire to make a certain something from nothing. I would not try to dictate what a modeler should or should not create and would hope that our community supports the modelers who are trying to create new things and innovate while doing so.

Sure, support needs to be given to existing content beyond Victoria and Michael but one of the first motivators in creation is desire. If the artist lacks the desire to do so, it becomes a chore - work (believe me, I know) - and interest quickly fades. So we need to spark desire. The best way I can think to do that is to use what's out there. You want more content for a figure you have to show it's worth the time to make it. Be that inspiration for the content creator. Start asking for specific items (people do already, which is neat) and every now and then, throw 'em a bone and buy a few. It really is a viscous cycle but the only way to make a change is to change. I don't know. I'm always trying to do it and I'm often met with resistance. Maybe I need to change and adapt to what's par for the course?

Anyway, I've rambled on longer than I should. I'm sure I'll be getting the office smack down soon. I'll leave you with this: the characters in P8 come with a bus load of morphs, they may not be the most glamor-centric characters to grace your screen but they are damn versatile - use them. The more you use them, the more products will get made for them. You've already bought the program and it came with the characters and they, in turn, came with the morphs. No extra spending needed. So use them. If the commitment to a character is the issue - the investment in morphs,etc. - these solve most of your problems. I think I may spend some time working on them this weekend. I wish I'd made them, there's some things I do a little differently, but I know I can turn them into just about anything I want with a little effort.

i think you've misunderstood what i was trying to say. so, just to recap, you said: "why don't toons sell?" and i tried to respond with my perception of why they don't, and now you're responding with, "well this is why they should sell." which doesn't quite make sense as a counterpoint, because i wasn't trying to assert that they don't. like i said in the beginning, i think it depends on how much of a market you're looking for, and you undoubtedly know more about the actual market than i do. i was only working from the assumption that V4 was the height of the market, and why anything toon would be somewhere below her. i was only working with the assumption that toons are less popular than realistic figures because you said they were.

basically, you sound really torn. you're arguing both sides. you're saying that there is an established and broad market for toons, and unique characters and animation in general. and then you're saying that there isn't enough of one for you to put out your figures.

if you say there's a market for Poser animation, i believe you. i literally haven't seen any in mainstream media, and have never seen any in any of the portfolios of individuals or companies (including advertising agencies) i look at outside of here, and haven't ever seen Poser even mentioned except negatively on any of the professional design and/or illustration community sites i've been to. but i'm always amazed at what's in the DAZ sighting thread, and i know of Poser taught in some college courses as an animation tool. so i know it's out there.

i will say i think you're undercutting you're own argument for style not mattering in the beginning. people who want something different tend to want their own difference. sure they'll watch Shrek, but why would they want to make their own Shrek movie? a whole company is already doing that. most extreme morphs that make figures less mainstream don't tend to sell well. notice how Girl and Aiko have both become morphs rather than original figures, and in doing so have become a bit less unique. you suggest thinking outside the box of the past 10 years, but the community created the box. it wasn't imposed. going outside of it means going outside of what the community, on average, wants.

if a change requires the community meeting creators half-way, i don't think it will happen.

none of that means it's not worth it. if you read my response to the original post, i'm quite clear on that subject. i wasn't at all trying to discourage you- or anyone else- from doing what you want. i wasn't trying to put down innovation. but it's just not generally popular. you can't both say you want to innovate and say you want instant popularity in one breath. innovation means going beyond where the (primary) market is now. a person can't expect to release an innovative product and have the whole market immediately follow unless they've built up that kind of brand. it seems to me that only DAZ has done that, and really only with V4.

me, personally, i'd say it's worth it to do what you want and learn how to make it popular. that said, it's all about how much you're willing to compromise. to take the market with you, you have to be willing to meet the market at least part way. for instance, when people had concerns about Apollo, Anton tended to respond with: "You can make that alteration with..." well, people don't get figures because they can do it themselves, they get them because they want someone else to do it for them. i totally respect Anton and any creator's choices about what they feel is worth it for them and what is not. and how much they are willing to compromise their artistic vision with the collective vision of the community.

oh, and you brought up anime. there's a reason i said "toons in the Western community." knowing a little of your work, and your choice of wording ("toons" not "anime" or "manga"), i was speaking from that perspective. anime is exaggerated in exactly the same way an idealized realistic female is exaggerated. more and more, our media is trending to a single "norm" in terms of appearance, even though that norm is an exaggeration of certain features. when it comes to toons, we haven't quite done that. Japanese and other Asian cultures have, and we have embraced those norms in the context of that type of media. and even then, as far as i've seen in the Poser community, some of the more extreme anime styles have not even had figures, let alone popular ones. Aiko is the most popular, and she's the closest to a normal female figure.

maybe i'm wrong, but i think it's important for customers to be able to "speak" through a figure. the more of a standard something is, the easier that is to do. anime is a standard, arguably even more specific than modern media's standard for women. but both standards operate in a plethora of genres. conversely, there are toon styles that really only work in one or two genres.

that said, i don't think it would necessarily be best to wait until we reach the tipping point and then play catch up. there are some stylistic norms, and even ones for more "serious" (rather than humorous or cute) comic looks. by the time there's a well-established norm, everyone will be saying, "why isn't there any toon figure for Poser?" and there will be some competition. everyone acts like the Vicky improved because technology did, but a lot of the improvements were possible in PPP and even on older machines. DAZ developers learned from each version. it's not really fair to compare someone's first version to someone else's fourth just because they have access to the same technology. the point being, it's hard rule the field by releasing the first version with everyone else.

I am really torn. I am so torn. cries. I think talking it out helps though. :) By the way, good points one and all.

oh, i'm glad talking helps. and i'm sorry for going on and on. i know you're in a very unique position compared to most Poser content creators. you get to see more than most, and know more of what's going on, but that priviledge comes with a lot of obligations and responsibilities. i kind of hope you do come out with your figures, because you want to so much and i think they'd be cool, but i mostly hope you do what satisfies you and makes you happy. i don't think there's an answer that doesn't mean some sort of compromise, so i'm just hoping you find the most comfortable one.

I love lightning man and wish there was some more for him but I know it can be rough to build a figure and then have it fall flat. There might be more than I am thinking but I have trouble finding anything in the CP store.

"everyone acts like the Vicky improved because technology did, but a lot of the improvements were possible in PPP and even on older machines. DAZ developers learned from each version. it's not really fair to compare someone's first version to someone else's fourth just because they have access to the same technology."

I've worked with V2, V3, and V4. I've remapped both V4 and V2, and frankly, I don't see any improvement in V4 over that of V2. What I do see is figure becoming more complex and difficult to manipulate and pose, and one that demands ever increasing resources.
As of date, it's easier for me to pose Posette, Judy, and V2, Dork and M2 than it is V4.
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

but the renders of V2 with her forearm bent look bad whereas when V4 bends her forearm it somehow looks more realistic.

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Quote - but the renders of V2 with her forearm bent look bad whereas when V4 bends her forearm it somehow looks more realistic.

That TRULY is a negligible advantage, compared to ALL the disadvantages! Unfortunately, when it comes to Daz, Goebbels Big Lie technique of repeating an abject fallacy loud enough and long enough seems to be at work here.
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

I'm not so sure it is a big lie. I reckon renders of older figures just look like older figures because of their funny angular arms.
Love esther

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Older figures look funny because people back then didn't know how to pose them properly! Updated with better texturing (through my remapping efforts). and with better understanding of the mechanics of bending and posing, they don't look funny at all! And again, whatever inherent advantages that V4 might have in her elbows, are more than offset the by far more serious inherent disadvantages inherent in her basic design. V4 is a behemoth when it comes to posing, and as clumsy as an Oil Tanker in child's wading pool!
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

I find she takes a lot of V3s poses with some minor tweaking not too badly.
well I don't know if it was the posing that made the difference. that is a possibility. I have been using V3 again lately but she does have that spaghetti arm problem.
I quite like M4 and he takes M3 poses not too badly either.
Love esther

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I would tend to think that if 3d content creators would not make new figures, the diversity of the Poser market would be stifled even more than it already is. Vicky already makes up the major bulk of the market and if no new figures were created, we would really be stuck with nothing else.

I happen to think that new figures are a good thing. IMHO, I can't have too many ;o). And while I do dig out an older figure or an older version of Vicky or Aiko, old figures go out of vogue for a reason. Newer things tend to look more realistic, have an appeal to a certain new audience, etc. Progress never stands still, even in the world of 3D (especially). And while I'd still use Posette or Dork for a background figure, I'd never use it for a portrait or close-up figure now, remapped or not ;o). No offense to anyone...lol.

Laurie

> Quote - And while I'd still use Posette or Dork for a background figure, I'd never use it for a portrait or close-up figure now, remapped or not ;o). No offense to anyone...lol. > > Laurie

What about Terai Yuki 2?

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

I don't have Terai Yuki or Terai Yuki 2 and have no intentions on getting Terai Yuki ;o). Not my cup of tea.

And that's kinda like advertising, isn't it? ;o).

Everything else aside, it's nice to be able to have a variety of figures to choose from, no matter if they are your cup of tea or not. That's why they and their variety is so important. If you don't care for one, there's something else out there that you probably will like. Knock all that down to just the Daz figures and frankly, I'd be bored too quickly...lol. So I welcome new things; with all the clothes conversion software out now, it's relatively easy to transfer the clothing between (unless you're a Nursoda figure fan ).

Laurie

> Quote - I don't have Terai Yuki or Terai Yuki 2 and have no intentions on getting Terai Yuki ;o). Not my cup of tea. > > Everything else aside, it's nice to be able to have a variety of figures to choose from, no matter if they are your cup of tea or not. That's why they and their variety is so important. If you don't care for one, there's something else out there that you probably will like. Knock all that down to just the Daz figures and frankly, I'd be bored too quickly...lol. So I welcome new things; with all the clothes conversion software out now, it's relatively easy to transfer the clothing between (unless you're a Nursoda figure fan ![](../../mod/forumpro/art/emoticons/crying.gif) ). > > Laurie

Have begun today to remap Mike 4 too!

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote - PhilC has been very supportive of obscure figures with Wardrobe Wizard. This seems to make the original poster's point moot. Why throw away that Andy Kaufman-looking Clarke figure you love so much when you can convert existing clothing for it?

For me it's not about the clothes, or the hair that's for sure! I can make clothing fit anyone with WW and some tweaking. Same goes for hair. I don't understand people's arguement that hair MUST be character specific! That's a complete and utter lie! It always has been! You can make any hair fit any figure with a few simple twists of the scale and position dials. It has ALWAYS been that way.

For me, it's definately about the morphs! I haven't thrown Clark away by any means, but I hardly ever use him for one simple reason. He has LOUSY Facial Expression capabilities! I'm not knocking TG's work mind you, but Clark has never had any decent open mouth morphs that don't make him look clownish at best.

Quote - > Quote - I don't have Terai Yuki or Terai Yuki 2 and have no intentions on getting Terai Yuki ;o). Not my cup of tea.

Everything else aside, it's nice to be able to have a variety of figures to choose from, no matter if they are your cup of tea or not. That's why they and their variety is so important. If you don't care for one, there's something else out there that you probably will like. Knock all that down to just the Daz figures and frankly, I'd be bored too quickly...lol. So I welcome new things; with all the clothes conversion software out now, it's relatively easy to transfer the clothing between (unless you're a Nursoda figure fan ).

Laurie

Have begun today to remap Mike 4 too!

I think my point was that you can't advertise in here. Just in case you missed it (as far as Terai Yuki 2 is concerned) ;o).

There are other forums for that purpose.

That aside, I wish you well on your remap of Mike. I don't mind doing a little hair-pulling now and then, but that would drive me insane...lolol.

Laurie

My point about Terai Yuki here in the above render, was that with updated texturing, she can be made to look very NON-Terai Yuki. There, she looks downright Caucasian!
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Maybe Wardrobe Wizard has really improved in the past couple of years, but I have to admit that my figure preference has been steered also by the amount of support the figure received.

When Aiko 3 first came out I couldn't have cared less...to this day I think her head just looks strange and unappealling. Nonetheless she became my figure of choice simply because there was SO MUCH being made to support her, and an EXTRAORDINARY amount of high quality items for FREE (Fredrik, Shukky, Sione, BATLAB, Yamato...this list just goes on and on...)

As far as her freakishly ugly head goes, I don't do a lot of renders with necks tilted at odd angles, so simply hiding the A3 head and parenting the head of a more attractive figure works just dandy for me. For a while I was really wishing dphoadley would make a PosetteV3 - A3 hybrid...

(hint-hint...Happy Channukah, by the way!!)

My favourite model du jour is a frankenstein of Aiko 3 with MDP F-202's head, shaders, and any kind of modelled, non-trans-mapped hair. Scale MDP's head at 120% (in relation to Aiko's body) and viola!

what is MDP F-202?
Love esther

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A pic of the F202 is here:
http://www.evilinnocence.com/f202-dollie-crossdresser-license.html

I think A3 Realistic morph is quite attractive

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

I feel the problem with toons is that they tend to be too individual so far... as a commercial artist I used Shazam a lot... it was a bauble head V2 and I could make a wide rage of "unique" characters including males with it. I also used PropagetScale versions of Posette and Dork but in commercial work I could never use a distinctive character type figure such as The GIRL or Kit or any of those.

H.E.R. was adaptable enough with good morph sets but the issue with Toons is most definitely for me about being able to morph it well from its distinctive default character. AikoToon is real nice but the texture issue is miserable.... I would use the hell out of that figure if it had V3 head mapping. I love Bong and Bonga for being open ended stylisticly but having fingers but no toes is a huge hang up for me... Bong with real feet would be wonderful.

One other issue with toon also... many of the toons are childlike. For both personal and professional work for me it is a neccessity that the figure be unequivocally mature such as The Girl.

yeah I hear you on AikoToon's textures... I got the UTC and her plugin, but I couldn't get it to run on my computer...

Getting someone to remap the head is a realistic goal surely...

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Quote - > Quote - What does the community have against toon characters?

I think toons are less popular than realistic figures because they're not perceived as very sexy usually.
.

Dunno... Hackworthless used to make some hella cool Manga over at R'otica back in the day, and he certainly wasn't alone.

I'm guessing that it's pretty niche, though.

(uh-oh... rant mode...)

IMHO, I'm thinking that the reason 'toon characters (of any stripe) are rarely supported for long boils down to the fact that most of the stock renderers are geared towards the realisticHDRIraytracedimagebasedlightedOAMG-it's-so-damned-real-my-eyes-are-BLEEDING! type of renders. DAZ|Studio's "Cartoon" mode still bites under most light conditions (I know, my fault for not doing anything about it either, but it's been four frickin' years now!). Light kits that work well for 'toons are far and few between.

A decent Cel Shader? Pffft! As if... you'd better pay up for 3DSMax/Maya/LW if you want that kind of love. Either case, it takes a shedload more work to do 'toon renders on Firefly or 3Delight than, well, the "real" stuff (such as it is).

(...please let me be wrong about that, please let me be wrong about that...)

Anyrate, there's also the fact that 'toons aren't quite as, err, flexible. Pretty much all variations of (ferinstance) Neftoon or Alexis (how's that for old?) look almost exactly alike. Even with the newer stuff, like say Kururu or Deco/Maybe, there's only so much stretching you can do off the default archetype before things go awry with the joints, morphs, et al.

I mean, c'mon... compare the amount of flex and stretch you get from V4 or Apollo Maximus, versus a one-off with a pretty much pre-determined shape.

Anyrate, I'm gonna shut up before I really dig a hole...

Found this old Dork-toon on my drive... you could really get a lot out of the old Poser 4 figures even without morph sets.

If the Poser 4 had just had the JPs tweeked like the injection by Yamoto, the edges smoothed as by Stahlratte, the resolution spiked a little like by Traveler and joint-fix JCM added... there was even a JCM set that did bicept and quad contraction etc. The figures were easy to scale, easy to morph and easy to distribute... the topology was good. The figures weren't flawed... they just needed polishing. I have seen amazing portrait work done with Posette. Object smoothing took care of the resolution issues... pitklad dealt with the eye surfaces, lacrimals and teeth Hellborn created female genitals. David did the remaping. The figures could have been developed into powerhouse if the community hadn't jumped on the DAZ bandwagon. The community was at a crossroads when Vicky came out... if they had gone with Traveler's version of Eve instead this would in many ways be a more vital and creative community but I guess their would have been a lot less money flying around.

I always say the more the merrier....humans, toons, realistic, monsters, aliens, etc.
It would be nice if the Poser program natively converted clothing from any figure to another. That would be awesome and I am not holding my breath. :)

--Rebekah--

wait, isnt' Wardrobe Wizard packaged with Poser 8? i could have sworn that's what people were saying.

Skipped through a lot of the thread but David, I have to take issue with you regarding the bending capabilities of older figures. V1/2 ain't so good compared to V3 and V4 - and V3 is pretty awful in some respects. Posette - forget it. Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Sure, all figures have some good posing ability but not many so far approach the standard of V4. Even though I dislike the default shape and the mapping, it ain't a bad figure.

And yes, I do know how to pose a figure correctly. :)

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Quote - Skipped through a lot of the thread but David, I have to take issue with you regarding the bending capabilities of older figures. V1/2 ain't so good compared to V3 and V4 - and V3 is pretty awful in some respects. Posette - forget it. Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Sure, all figures have some good posing ability but not many so far approach the standard of V4. Even though I dislike the default shape and the mapping, it ain't a bad figure.

And yes, I do know how to pose a figure correctly. :)

Avoid forearm side-to-side. Shins also. Ouch.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Quote - > Quote - Skipped through a lot of the thread but David, I have to take issue with you regarding the bending capabilities of older figures. V1/2 ain't so good compared to V3 and V4 - and V3 is pretty awful in some respects. Posette - forget it. Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Sure, all figures have some good posing ability but not many so far approach the standard of V4. Even though I dislike the default shape and the mapping, it ain't a bad figure.

And yes, I do know how to pose a figure correctly. :)

Avoid forearm side-to-side. Shins also. Ouch.

Indeed. And twisty fingers, and side to side finger bends other than at the palm joint. And while we're at it, rotating wrists. Which of course, they don't. In the same way that ankles don't. :)

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Yes, WW is packaged with Poser 8, BUT the way that it works isn't universal for all figures. PhilC has to make files to add to WW for each figure that is going to get support and a lot of those you are going to have to pay extra for. Money well spent if you can convert clothing to and from several figures if you ask me. Point being, not all figures get the benefits of WW in Poser 8.

We put our Project Human figures out there for people to use, learn with or simply play with and we have made some support packages for them, but that wasn't thier point or purpose. Our Uni-Dwarf is getting a lot more support from us clothing wise. But to be honest, Les really just likes making figures...making clothing is another art altogether is seems sometimes. We've tried to make support our figures and easy as possible with making the CR2 files distributable, the morphs, the textures can be altered and distributed, etc...just about everything but the actual obj file and people seem confused. I will get emails asking if they can make a pose pack for one of our figures or a texture...it is just bizzare. Who scared people into thinking that supporting a product was a complicated process ? We try to encourage people as much as possible to try to learn new things and to share them or sell them or whatever, but it should be fun for them. I digress, we know that the Poser default figures and the DAZ figures are always going to sell more than ours....but there are just some things that we want to do that are easier to do with our own figures than someone elses. Don't think that all original figure creators are making human figures with mad dreams of conquering the Poserverse. As far as toon figures, yes they are very stylized by the nature of what they are....some sell well, some don't. It is hit or miss, but that isn't going to stop us from making what we enjoy creating.

--Rebekah--

Quote - Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Someone did fix that, once.

-A

www.aanascent.com

Quote - > Quote - Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Someone did fix that, once.

-A

That they did. Steph Max, IIRC. Very nice figure.

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Sam, what is sooooooo bad about Posette's bending, that you'd prefer a Ponderous Behemoth as a cure?
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Yamaotos JP for Posette were good... add a few JCM joint fixes and the only trouble is some sculpting.

David, we went through this before, over a year ago. You posted some pics of Posette bending as example of how good the model is. Sad to say, her ass gets kinda splintery, for one thing. Not a bad model for what it is, but very limited.

Anyhow, "ponderous behemoth"? All the DAZ figures run fine on my ageing machines. TBH, I tend to render in sections anyhow, so I have the luxury of using as many hi poly figures as I please.

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Damn, I wonder what machine you have! I overspent on a new machine and can't run a fully clothed V4 with hair in a scene!! Can't even think of running Miki 1020 with clothes.

Hey,
any mesh is just another hook to hang the texture on.

All the rest can be fixed.
Be it high, or low, or medium polycount,
Be it new or old figure. They all have their "misfortunes".
But, there is money in it.

But the usability of Posette and Dork still has to be beaten.
And it will not be done by poly count. Object smoothing solved the poly hype.
But by improved rigging, and by a good texture.

But and it has been said, there is no money in it. Sellers want to sell.
Every improvement is a change, not every change is an improvement.
It can be better in one way, but problems in others.

I still say; any poly has to do something special in the 3D environment.
Every poly, has to "DO" something usefull in the topology. If not? Delete it. It is pollution.

But, for bending purposes, "strech" area's need an denser population then "compress" area's.

Want very, read, very, "read extreme" high poly count?
A good bump and displacement map takes care of this.
Anyone ever calculated how many artificial poly's one can have? ? ?
Every pixel in displacement becomes a poly.
But , there is no money in it.

If done right, you could displace any figure, into any other figure.
As you can clothify almost any figure into another one. But that is another story.
As you can morph any figure into any other one.
But and it has been said, there is no money in it. Sellers want to sell.

I''d rather do it in the map, then in the "hook".

A good texture sells a figure, nothing else.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Damn, I wonder what machine you have! I overspent on a new machine and can't run a fully clothed V4 with hair in a scene!! Can't even think of running Miki 1020 with clothes.

Back when it was made, it was a pretty hot machine. It's a fairly simple 1GB rig with a kick ass graphics card, no sound card, a fast Athlon and 2 250 GB drives for storage and a 40 GB boot disk.

I switch off absolutely every process that isn't necessary; no themes, screensavers and so forth. Defrag my drives regularly and absolutely never, ever connect that one to the internet.

I have a similar box for 2D stuff and Cubase but with a 80 GB SCSI for a boot disk and a pretty good soundcard.

I'm using a Celeron based POS to get online at the moment.

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Yeah... I think it is the video card that really makes the difference with Poser. Does Poser use the video card for the final render as well as the preview?

Quote - David, we went through this before, over a year ago. You posted some pics of Posette bending as example of how good the model is. Sad to say, her ass gets kinda splintery, for one thing. Not a bad model for what it is, but very limited.

Anyhow, "ponderous behemoth"? All the DAZ figures run fine on my ageing machines. TBH, I tend to render in sections anyhow, so I have the luxury of using as many hi poly figures as I please.

Sorry Sam, but I think that you need glasses, (and/or I need a NEW pair)! I've yet to find ONE splinter on Posette's ass! (and yes I've looked. pervert that I am!)

If you were to ever remap any of these figures, You'd realize jsut what I mean by 'Ponderous Behemoth'. The LOD figures of the Free DS are quite reasonable as per poly-count (almost the same as Posette), but the Base figures are obviously a case of someone loading these figures into 3ds Max, and then adding the Turbo-Smooth modifier.
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote - Yeah... I think it is the video card that really makes the difference with Poser. Does Poser use the video card for the final render as well as the preview?

Nope, doesn't use it at all for rendering. The trick is to split the scene into smaller chunks for rendering, then comp them all back together in Photoshop. I've been doing it for years.

@ David - I really wish I could find the old thread I was talking about. You posted some pics of Posette and, to be really honest, they looked bad.

Nowadays, if I use the older figures it's as scene fillers.

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Background Figures my twisted smelly right FOOT! Heck!! Show me the splinters!! dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Well, to be fair, her rear does look a little funny... I'm just sayin'....lol.

It's a joint setup thing.

Laurie

Posette rules.
OK, she needs mophs, but all the figures do !

I think he refers to the "knick" between the buttocks and the thights.

But ALL figures need morphs in that area when bending like this.

Anyone may show me a pic of any "default figure" in the left pose.

Posette and Judy, in that order. Morphed of course :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

yep laurieA
it is a rigging thing overthere, and on the knees.
But the mesh is OK.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Hey, REAL people kink in their hip thigh joint like that too!! Maybe not to the same extent, but they DO kink there. As for the rest, with V3 textures, she looks damn scrumptious!!
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

I confess to be absolutly "anti-Posette" .Unrealistic bodyshape and ugly by default but that is morphable but joints especially the hip/thigh Joints are useless.I guess this is meant with "some kinda splintry" :

Now that's what I remember...

Weird creases and even breakage. Trav's Eve was a step up and when I do use Posette, it's usually Eve. Never did like the body shape, but that's a subjective thing ;o).

Laurie

Yeah... the hip is a bit funny. It is that "bikini" style hip grouping... V4 suffers from it too. I think Antonia uses the old P2 "bike pants" hip group which avoids "splintering" in the groin with deep bends.

Posette is not perfect off the rack. Like I said, it needs JP work some of which was distributed free and some kept secrete unfortunately, needed some basic resculpting like Stahratte did on the face... but the robust foundation was a very morphable and scaleable figure. Try Pitklad's NEA and you will see just how flexible the figure is...

Think of how crappy V3 or even V4 looked before people got to work on them. Search the RMP from back to front for V4 characters and see how bad the first character sets were. The difference though is that aftermarket development of Posette was mainly non-profit and certainly so as far as DAZ was concerned but the figure was damn easy to work with and the work was easy to distribute.

Really, think of how many of the most used V4 products are essentially after-market fixes!

This focus on complexity in figures leads to less productivity in my case... I got many more renders that said more with P4 while now I spend hours tweeking complicated expensive content and lights getting far less interesting work. Poser 4 had a distinct look that could have evolved into an aesthetic but instead Poser is chasing after the look of high-end CGI which is very amusing and challenging I agree but ultimately leads to less "art" getting made in my individual case.

Quote - I confess to be absolutly "anti-Posette" .Unrealistic bodyshape and ugly by default but that is morphable but joints especially the hip/thigh Joints are useless.I guess this is meant with "some kinda splintry" :

Timberwolf, you nailed it.

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> Quote - > Quote - I confess to be absolutly "anti-Posette" .Unrealistic bodyshape and ugly by default but that is morphable but joints especially the hip/thigh Joints are useless.I guess this is meant with "some kinda splintry" : > > > Timberwolf, you nailed it.

Well I dare say that if you were to bend a real human female at the hips, ike you bend poor old Posette, you'd be seeing splinters on her too! Real people, except for contortionists traind from birth don't bend like that! When a person bends forwards, he bends at the hip, abdomen, chest, neck, & head altogether!
Here PosetteV3wg, which incorporates Pitklad's NEAena's Cr2 with its JP corrections, BTW manages to achieve the same pose without all that crap!
Hip:             Bend -30.000
Abdomen: Bend +60.000
Chest:         Bend +60.000
Neck:          Bend +10.000
Head:         Bend +20.000

The rule that I try to follow here is the 1:2 rule. For every one part of hip bend/twist/side-to-side, I use 2 parts abdomen and chest. For every one part of neck bend/twist/sid-to-side I use 2 parts head.
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote: *Well I dare say that if you were to bend a real human female at the hips, ike you bend poor old Posette, you'd be seeing splinters on her too! Real people, except for contortionists traind from birth don't bend like that! When a person bends forwards, he bends at the hip, abdomen, chest, neck, & head altogether! * half way true.For sitting in a 90 deg angle you won't need to be that flexible.It is not contortionists only.Make a poll how many people are able to sit back against a wall streight down to theire lower spine and legs flat on the floor -having 90 deg. between thighs and torso.I guess you will get a 50-50 result.------Back to Posette : The thing is , there is the same ugly mesh-distortion when bendig thighs in case of a kick-pose .This is a problem - of course a Poser-problem in general, but a posette problem especially. Eve has been a major step ahead here , but to me it simply doesn't make sense to spend time on reshaping and remaping eve ,when I can get an far advanced Miki2 instead.

Quote - Quote: *Well I dare say that if you were to bend a real human female at the hips, ike you bend poor old Posette, you'd be seeing splinters on her too! Real people, except for contortionists traind from birth don't bend like that! When a person bends forwards, he bends at the hip, abdomen, chest, neck, & head altogether! * half way true.For sitting in a 90 deg angle you won't need to be that flexible.It is not contortionists only.Make a poll how many people are able to sit back against a wall streight down to theire lower spine and legs flat on the floor -having 90 deg. between thighs and torso.I guess you will get a 50-50 result.------Back to Posette : The thing is , there is the same ugly mesh-distortion when bendig thighs in case of a kick-pose .This is a problem - of course a Poser-problem in general, but a posette problem especially. Eve has been a major step ahead here , but to me it simply doesn't make sense to spend time on reshaping and remaping eve ,when I can get an far advanced Miki2 instead.

Yes, but by and large, the lighter the mesh, the easier to pose! I've also remapped Miki 2, but trying to pose her is at times like dragging a large boulder through a lake filled with jello!
dph

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: New Figures