I'm working with Smith Micro to bring the tutorials into the current century (LOL), so what do you need to learn? Beginner topics, Intermediate Topics, and Advanced Topics suggestions will be welcome.

BEGINNER TOPICS

Think about what you needed to learn most when you first started with Poser. OR, if you ARE new to Poser, what is most confusing and needs more clarification?

INTERMEDIATE TOPICS

Once you get the basics out of the way, what do you need to know? Customizing characters? Changing materials? Animation? Great lighting?

ADVANCED TOPICS

Creating original Poser content, using Poser with third party applications, yada yada yada.

Now's your chance .... SPILL. 8-)

Lighting and materials are top of My list..

Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Material Room.

Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Hair Room.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Good instructions that cover bringing a face pic onto a Poser model, something that doesn't look incrediably lame.

IDL: The theory, the concepts and settings.

Good recommendations for hardware to use in a render farm setup. Give good examples of performance versus cost of equipment so that the end user won't have to necessarily spend tons of money to utilize the render queue manager in Pro versions of poser.

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AMD FX-9590 4.7ghz 8-core, 32gb of RAM, Win7 64bit, nVidia GeForce GTX 760

PoserPro2012, Photoshop CS4 and Magix Music Maker

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...and when the day is dawning...I have to say goodbye...a last look back into...your broken eyes.

When there is a New Version e.g. Poser Pro 2010.
Include a detailed section of WHAT'S NEW.. And also IDL, Basic lighting, Rendering..

Indirect Lighting features and info on how to compose a scene and light it for Indirect Lighting would probably be the single most useful new item. I keep seeing people rendering with GI in an empty environment.

My Freebies

It might help to be a bit more specific, because some of these requests are kind of broad:

NoelCan: Lighting and materials are top of My list.

Lighting basics, or the newer lighting features? What about lighting has you the most stumped?

Believable3D: Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Material Room.

I hear you on this one. The challenge with the material room, though, is that there are SO many options and so many different uses for a material node that it's not quite as easy to deal with. The material room can be an entire book and a half in itself! LOL So if you have some particulars that you need to learn ... skin shaders, clothing shaders, metallics, etc etc etc, that would help with a start.

Believable3D: Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Hair Room.

Have an example of a specific type of tutorial that would be helpful for you?

BloodRoseDesign: Good instructions that cover bringing a face pic onto a Poser model, something that doesn't look incrediably lame.

Are you talking about using the Face Room, or using some other third party application like Photoshop or one of the 3D Painting applications?

hborre: IDL: The theory, the concepts and settings.

Agreed .. and for this one I will definitely try to get some expert input.

Coop said I'll be working with you on these Deecey. I'm looking forward to it. If I can just brain-dump about lighting and materials and you do the organizing and editing, it will be awesome. I hate how I agonize over every word and picture - takes forever to do a tut.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Coop said I'll be working with you on these Deecey. I'm looking forward to it. If I can just brain-dump about lighting and materials and you do the organizing and editing, it will be awesome. I hate how I agonize over every word and picture - takes forever to do a tut.

WAHOO, just the guinea p ... ooops ... I mean "helper" I was thinking of for those two topics. LOL

If you have a screen cap program like Camtasia you can send me your brain dumps and I can make them reasonably intelligible. LOL

Thanks for the feedback on the suggestions, Deecey. Here's a start:

Material Room - a general direction on uses for the different nodes. It's one thing to experiment in a given ballpark, but knowing what kinds of nodes are going to be anywhere close to what you need is another matter. If I know that a certain math function tends to do X, I'll know whether or not it's significant to the particular sort of shader I want to work on.

Hair Room - basically, there is almost no useful info on the hair room, so almost anything would be helpful. But in particular, clearly-laid-out instructions on the Styling Tool would be a good start, along with explanation and examples of what the various settings in the Dynamics controls actually do.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Oh, this izz gonna be GOOOD. :)

Where are these tutorials going to be? Inside PP2010 Help, online, both?

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

I was referring to the face room because you are talking about instructional content for Poser.

But in regards to Photoshop, should would be nice if the material room nodes could be understood in a way that us PS users can grasp.

We are probably going to be putting them up on SM's site, they're gonna make space for them. 8-)

Thank you both Deecey and BB. I truly look forward to the information both of you will bestow upon us.

For me, the material room is at the top of the list. I get pretty much everything else I need to survive, including a fair start in IDL, thanks to BB and Hborre's posts.

Those $%&# shaders, that's another story.

Specifically, what does each thing in the list do? What does it control? What do you plug into what and for what reason? What are all of these arcane things I see hooked up in some of the things I've bought? How would I do this and why would I want to?

See, I want a whole user's manual ON THE MATERIAL ROOM! :)

This is where I can accomplish the most even though I know the least, so if I knew what I was doing, I'd be dangerous! :)

Please, place your priority here.

One more plea, and this is a BIG one. KISS. Don't assume I know what anything is or how to do it. Keep it click by click, and I MIGHT* be able to follow it and learn something. The threads here bog down very quickly with the jargon of the initiated and the rest of us are left scratching our plumber's cracks.

My $.02

P.S. You get virtual roses for being willing to do this!!!! (Even if Smith Micro has you on the payroll, which I hope they do!)

I'll take roses 8-)

Step by steps are my forte, it's one of the things I love to do. Been at it since 1994, content creation is a diversion now and then.

BB and I will be a good team, I think ... he's into the stuff I'm not, and I'm into the stuff he's not. It will work really well. 8-)

Heheh. I've probably already written the material book in this forum. Deecey just needs to go through all of it and assemble it. Which is what Cooper suggested to me.

Here's the first little nugget - read this.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2974586&ebot_calc_page#message_2974586

I wrote that May 9, 2007. In there is this paragraph:

Quote - A word of warning about Diffuse in Poser - it is NEVER accurate, because it only calculates for photons coming from light sources, direct illumination. It does not include light bouncing or originating from other objects. Better renders do take this into account for diffuse calculations - this is generally called "global illumination" or GI for short. It is the absence of GI that mostly makes Poser renders fail to look completely real. We work around the issue with Image Base Lights, but that's a cheat and only gets you about half way there.

But now, we have Poser 8 and Poser Pro 2010 and .. we have IDL for GI!!!!!

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

The Nodes for Dummies thread is full of important stuff. There is math, but it is all simple math.
The Diffuse node is fully explained by page 4. However, this was a conversation, not a tutorial. Have at it.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2761668

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Thanks, I'll break both of those threads down tomorrow and see what I can do with them. 8-)

Quote - Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Material Room.

YES!!! Like all the nodes defined, with instructions on how to use them in a sentence.

Start off with BASICS, though... example: let's say you have a 2 in the Value_1 channel and a 0 in the Value_2 channel of the math_function Add node. This node will compute 2 + 0 = 2. Connecting this output to a channel on another node will multiply whatever the value is in that other node by 2.
That sort of basic thing. So that you know what happens when you connect the output of a node to a channel on another node.

Then, what good is that for creating effects?

Also, a more detailed description of the internal workings of the PoserSurface channels, so that we see less simultaneous connecting to Diffuse_Color and Alternate_Diffuse. So that super-colours are a concept. There are some basics buried in these threads that need this sort of exposure. That will give a material room tutorial a lot more credibility than re-hashing those "how-to-connect-an-imageMap-to-Diffuse_Color" done-to-death instructions.

Perhaps they could get together with BB for this: no one to my knowledge has a more comprehensive, intuitive sense for this than Bagginsbill.

Am I asking for a pony, here?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

OOPs, should have read the thread before going off half-cocked... glad to hear Bagginsbill's on it! He's the MAN!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

hehehehe, I figured you'd get there eventually LOL

Both of you deserve serious accolades and our most humble gratitude for even taking up this challenge. Yes, the mat room side of things could seriously take up a book and a half... and that's just summarising. I am on pins and needles waiting to see what you two are going to put together!

Also, your Beginner / Advanced / Expert approach to your tutorials can be extended to subjects like the mat and cloth and hair rooms...

This is like the best Christmas pressie EVER!!!! Thank you ever so much, both of you!!!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

The thing is, people think each node has an artistic purpose, and some simply do not.

In your example, the Math:Add node, what's it used for? It's used to add things together. It's not used to create an artistic effect, it's used to implement adding two numbers together.

It's a little bit like asking what a screw is for in art, and I answer that it is used to hold the clasp on a paintbrush, the clasp being to keep bristles attached to a handle, the bristles being to grab some paint and allow one to apply it to a canvas.

After you understand the purpose of the screw, and the bristles, and the brush, and the application of paint, do you have any more idea how to paint like Picasso? Nope. The screw has nothing to do with it. But without the screw, Picasso couldn't paint.

Or, well, he could, because you could also make the clasp stay on using a nail, instead of a screw. But, while nail versus screw have various pros and cons and different characteristics, neither has any real influence on the painting.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Yup, which is what I was saying earlier. An Add node can be used in multitudes of ways. A Blender node can be used in multitudes of ways. And so on, and so forth.

That's why specifics might be better. How do I create a good skin shader, how do I create a good metallic shader, how do I create a good reflection node, how do I create a good fabric or velvet, or enhance hair shaders. Those types of things would probably be more useful than "What does this node do" (even though there SHOULD be additional info about that as well).

Coop and I have been kicking this around for a while as I've been pouring through the Poser 8 and PP2010 manuals among other projects. He deserves somma dem accolades too. 8-)

I should also add ... this WILL take time. Practical Poser 6 and Practical Poser 7 averaged about 4-5 months apiece working on them at 12 hours a day. So this will probably be done in spurts and put up once they get the thumbs up. But we will be working on them. 8-)

Do you think there is a place for concepts like super-colours, though? Like, multiply two colours together and you might end up with a super-colour? Blender two colours and you won't. (hoping I'm right on that... I guess as long as you keep the blending - that 3rd channel - value <= 1 )

It's a bit like me using one of my heels or a crescent wrench to put a nail in the wall: should have looked just a few minutes longer for that hammer (not sure if that's a good analogy... clunky heels actually work pretty well as a hammer :m_blush: )

I actually think there is a place for node basics... I don't see that information covered anywhere. Seriously, how many people know what math process happens when you connect a node output to a channel input? Seriously? True, it could be like in a reference section, but it is essential to have a basic understanding of some of this stuff, don't you think?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

I actually tried to play with the nodes one by one, and compare them to how they worked in Photoshop ... then when I saw how long it took me to play with ONE node I figured I'd never make the book deadline if I tried to cover them all. It's a good long-term project, though, given the number of nodes there are to cover.

At the Node Cult at RDNA, we had many discussions of how to catalog the nodes. JohnRickardJR took on the challenge of documenting many of them. I worked with him on creating graphs of the functions generated by many of the nodes. He also made an attempt to justify each node, even the math nodes, in terms of how you might use them.

Have a look.

http://www.castleposer.co.uk/my_tutorials.html

As an example, there is a whole page on the add node.

http://www.castleposer.co.uk/articles/maths_add.html

But does it really convey what it is for? No because it isn't "for" anything other than to add two numbers. He shows a few examples, but they don't even begin to cover the topic.

Adding bumps, adding fractals, adding images, adding displacements, adding diffuse and specular effects, etc. And really, the add node is a subtract node, if you set either value to a negative number, so you can use an add node to subtract, but what does that tell you? Similarly, the multiply can be used to divide, the pow node can be used to calculate roots, but what are roots for?

And he doesn't even begin to cover the fact that A + B = B + A, so that Value_1 and Value_2 are not really distinguished and are interchangeable. But A-B != B-A, so V1 and V2 are not interchangeable in a subtract node.

These nodes are math. To know what they are for, you have to know what math is for. Which is what I said like 20 times in the nodes for dummies thread.

I haven't seen John around for ages. He certainly hasn't added anything to this page for a couple years.

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I always loved this page.

http://www.castleposer.co.uk/articles/maths_chart.html

It tells me everything about the math nodes. It doesn't tell you a damn thing about how to use math.

An interesting thing about this page. All the graphs are Poser renders. I gave John a shader that plots a graph of any node you plug into it.

So - what are math nodes for? Clearly they are for documenting themselves, because that's how we used them there.

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Hehehehe

And an artist would look at that and say "Say what?" LOL

I left the engineering world in 1993. I think like an artist now. LOL

Then to be specific, yes I would like to learn how to create metallic shader/nodes. I've seen the thread by Baggins at RDNA for metal and though that shows a metal shader I unfortunately am not that thrilled with it's outcome (not to be taken personally Baggins). I would like to know how to incorporate a image map with nodes to create a metal surface, smooth, slightly rough and rough.
There must be a way to incorporate maps and nodes together???
Just my thoughts.
Missy woot!

The merest of mere suggestions, here. Feel free to shoot it down.

Would a Wiki approach to cataloguing this sort of information - like the node basics I touched on earlier - be reasonable? In that way, the work would be readily available (published) on an ongoing basis, as opposed to some time in the future. This is the approach they took with Shader Mixer, which is I believe what answers for the mat room over at DS:
artzone.daz3d.com/wiki/doku.php/pub/software/shadermixer/start

I'm not trying to upend the apple-cart... just an idea, easily discarded.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Another interseting concept I haven't discussed is the idea that two functions are "isomorphic". This is fancy math speak for "they have the same shape".

When we look at two nodes they sometimes are the same underlying math, but with different parameter meanings. For example, the Pow function and the Bias function are the same shape. Any shape you can make with one, you can exactly make with the other. But the values you use to create the same shapes will be different values.

This is a hard concept at first, but once you get it, it's a big time saver in learning the nodes. This is because when two nodes are isomorphic, they are actually the same, just using different control parameters, so once you understand one, you understand the other.

Example:

Definition of the add node: Value_1 + Value_2

Definition of the sub node: Value_1 - Value_2

Claim:

Add and Sub are isomorphic.

Proof:

Take whatever you're using in an add node, and negate the number in Value_2. It is now the equivalent subtract node.

Add(a, -b) = a + -b = a - b = Sub(a, b)
QED

Mul and Div are isomorphic:

Proof:
Mul(a, 1/b) = a * 1 / b = a / b = Div(a, b)

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

if stefan has a free moment, see if youse can get his input on the IDL/GI variables/tone-mapping section.

AND NOT = NOR?

Quote - AND NOT = NOR?

What are you asking there?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Yup, which is what I was saying earlier. An Add node can be used in multitudes of ways. A Blender node can be used in multitudes of ways. And so on, and so forth.

That's why specifics might be better. How do I create a good skin shader, how do I create a good metallic shader, how do I create a good reflection node, how do I create a good fabric or velvet, or enhance hair shaders. Those types of things would probably be more useful than "What does this node do" (even though there SHOULD be additional info about that as well).

I'm all for specifics. Do the lessons with specific goals in view.

However, I think the old saw about giving a man a fish vs teaching a man to fish holds true here. If you show me how to create a good skin shader without exposing the principles of the nodes... well, you may as will just give me a file to plug in. But if you teach me principles about the nodes you're using, I can understand why you chose a given node to build the skin shader, and put it where you did... and then just maybe I'll have some insight into creating a shader for something completely different.

So by all means, keep it concrete and specific. Otherwise, only geeks will read it. But as you're dealing with specifics, lay bare the principles of why you're doing what you're doing. Teach us how to bait the hook, at least. Please. :)

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Yes, while creating, say, a skin shader, I would probably do it step by step and say "Now ... you want to add some shine to the skin. One of the ways you can do that is to take such and such a node, and plop it in between this and that. Then you have to adjust this setting because it will create less shine.

I take it that is what you mean. 8-)

Yep, something along those lines. At the end of the day, I'd like your skin shader tutorial to give me insight into creating a shader for the appendix of a rhinocerous (okay, maybe not).

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Quote - Then to be specific, yes I would like to learn how to create metallic shader/nodes. I've seen the thread by Baggins at RDNA for metal and though that shows a metal shader I unfortunately am not that thrilled with it's outcome (not to be taken personally Baggins). I would like to know how to incorporate a image map with nodes to create a metal surface, smooth, slightly rough and rough.
There must be a way to incorporate maps and nodes together???
Just my thoughts.
Missy woot!

Are you talking about the thread that AerySoul started, about heavy metal? Or another one?

There are an infinite number of ways to use nodes driven by a color map. Whatever part of the shader defines the color, plug the map into there. For the heavy metal shader, I included an ImageMap where you load the color you want. That will be used to drive the diffuse and specular reflection colors of the metal.

Roughness comes from adding bump. If you want a surface to look rough, you add bump. What kind of bump depends on what kind of roughness. It can be simply from a bump map, or from various noisy nodes, or combinations, involving math, in ways that depend on what you're trying to do. It involves math. If you want areas to have different kinds of bump, it would involve masking and Blending, which is just math, actually.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Thing is, one man's "good skin shader" is another man's crap.

I've written dozens of skin shader tutorials. The simplest, which I now consider crap. was the UBSS (Ultra Basic Skin Shader). But it was easy to build - less than 5 nodes.

The real issue of a good skin shader is GC, not how skin works. For P8, a good skin shader is way more nodes than for Poser Pro 2010.

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The tutorials I've always found most useful for learning (amongst the many different educational approaches) are the step-by-step ones that show you a cool end result (i.e a good render) and the process(es) involved in achieving it - covering many smaller challenges along the way.

I think this is particularly useful because it places all the technical stuff in some kind of context, forming a base on which folk can expand their 3d learning. Ideas and priciples can be introduced along the way.

I like the really detailed guides, but I know they can take an age to put together.

Anyway, just a thought.

edited - you all must have started to talk about this as I was typing (slow typer here )

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Actually, you could probably write a whole book on how and why any given render was made in a particular way, and other ways it could have been done.

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Exactly, Carodan.

Bagginsbill, I understand what you're saying re the different versions. However, it does seem to me that if the tut is written in a way that shows what each node is doing, the semi-intuitive reader would least be able to have an educated guess what nodes may be deleted (or alternatively, given more accent) in a given situation. On the one hand, a non-specific shader tutorial is going to be abstract and unusable to most type of users; a specific tutorial that doesn't uncover the principles involved is going to be too narrow and even dated.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

In-depth tutorials on using the cloth room. I'd love to use dynamic cloth, but up til now have been kinda stymied by what's needed to get good results. The most I've been able to make is a mooshy puddle of polys ;o).

Laurie

For a true "step by step" it seems to me that video tutorials would be the way to go. That way you see every step right in front of you. But I know a lot of people don't like video tutorials.

Thoughts?

STEP by STEP tutorials as if we are dumb and can't follow directions.lol.. But serious. Better step-by-step tutorials as if the person that's reading it doesn't know anything about Poser. The tutorials should show artistic rendering techniques instead of the very basics which usually results in a render that looks nothing like the renders that we see on Renderosity. Nothing big, just some good samples. Like the one you did with the primitive square to make a hall way.

I think tutorials like that would help give beginners as well as experienced users a better understanding how the features on Poser can be used.

Frederick
Poser By Design

Quote - However, I think the old saw about giving a man a fish vs teaching a man to fish holds true here. If you show me how to create a good skin shader without exposing the principles of the nodes... well, you may as will just give me a file to plug in. But if you teach me principles about the nodes you're using, I can understand why you chose a given node to build the skin shader, and put it where you did... and then just maybe I'll have some insight into creating a shader for something completely different.

Precisely. That would be the most important thing to emphasise: how to avoid making a bogus shader through an understanding of what things do what. If a person doesn't understand the concept of super-colours, how are they going to avoid them?
All these concepts have been discussed... a number of times. The problem is accessibility / visibility. If I'm a new Poser developer and I want to make my material more outstanding than just plugging a colorMap node into Diffuse_Color, do I look for a mat room tutorial?

Okay, so IF I actually do look for some reference material for the material room nodes, what do I find on here? Reams and reams of examples and discussions and some of it I'll copy down somewhere or bookmark but given most people's attention span being what it is, I'll soon give up on finding something and will start experimenting. Going for an effect. I'll have a play and if it looks okay, I'll save it.

So, if you could, if the wiki idea is not a good one, could you have a section in your tome about things to avoid, Deecey and BB? Core concepts like: plugging the output of a node into an input of another is math(multiply).That kind of stuff.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

these are all great ideas!

i second the notion for a wiki defining nodes. i've been the the CastlePoser tutorials several times, and i still have no clue why Bias (x, y > 0.5) makes x = black into a grey, but Bias(x, y < 0.5) leaves x = black and x = white untransformed. what equation does Bias actually apply mathematically? and Gain?

and that doesn't even touch on the black boxes of things like "skin," "velvet," etc. i don't touch those any more, but lots of people do, yet there seems to be no clear understanding of how they transform their properties. there are a lot of nodes with internal functions that would be easier to use if how they operated were actually available.

i think a series of tutorials on making different types of materials would be very different and also beneficial. personally, though, i'd love having an accompanying script for each tutorial. now that i'm into Matmatic, it's much easier to keep track of what someone else is doing (or even what i'm doing). the structure and notes just work wonders. considering something "wear" or "grain" is easier than following connections to from a group of 4 or so nodes to find out they're affecting color, reflection, specular, bump and displacement. translating nodes is a lot harder than translating code written in English, imho.

I'm following that other thread on that IDL wall of Bill's and I realised something: my focus is more general than what is being looked at here. I'm looking at alerting people to concepts that are far more basic than when to use an Add vs when to use a Pow... that's further down the pike.

I remember a very interesting discussion on here about what PoserSurface does with Bagginsbill explaining the behaviour of a lot of the channels. I've had brilliant discussions with CobaltDream (very illuminating discussions!) about the process the renderer takes. This is all fundamental stuff anyone going into the material room needs to have a solid grasp of, or bogus shaders will happen.

THAT is what I'm on about. This needs to be absorbed before discussions of maths nodes and texture nodes and all the stuff you can do with them makes any sense. And if I can propose that GC be included in that basic discussion, my work here is done.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Oh, I like videos! I'm one of the idiots...lol.

Laurie

Videos are cool... I just have such a hard time remembering everything... :m_think:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

I agree that if somebody doesn't know the really low-level mechanics of nodes, then they can't even begin to follow. Basics like you say - that whatever is plugged into a node parameter is multiplied with the value entered in the node parameter. That color math is the same as regular math, but done on each component. That plugging a color into a number parameter averages the three components (or conceptually converts it to gray scale). That plugging a number into a color parameter duplicates the number in all three components.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Beautiful! That's what I'm refering to, Bill! Thank you!

So, what, a chapter in your tome? A wiki somewhere central? What do you reckon?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - these are all great ideas!

i second the notion for a wiki defining nodes. i've been the the CastlePoser tutorials several times, and i still have no clue why Bias (x, y > 0.5) makes x = black into a grey, but Bias(x, y < 0.5) leaves x = black and x = white untransformed. what equation does Bias actually apply mathematically? and Gain?

What gave you that idea? Bias never transforms 0 and 1. Bias(0, any) = 0. Bias(1, any) = 1.

Bias is actually an isomorph of Pow. (See how I like to use the shorthand possible when everybody learns all the words?)

Bias(a, b) = Pow(a, Log(b) / Log(.5))

Why is this particular isomorph useful? If you think about the graph of the Pow function, the exponent bends a diagonal line up or down. Pow(x, 1) is a straight diagonal line. When the exponent is greater than 1, the line bends down. When the exponent is less than 1, the line bends up. This means that the second argument is a contra, which is hard to think about. (By contra, I mean to make something bigger you must supply something smaller and vice versa. Contra parameters are always head scratchers. Put three or four in a row and your head explodes.) (Note: I hate frequency for this reason. Frequency is a contra. To make a repeating element bigger, you must decrease the frequency. I hate that. But sometimes frequency is not a contra, like when I say that a parameter in the Loom shader script defines how many threads there will be. Then a bigger number is more threads (not contra), and though it is contra to thread size, that's conceptually clear.)

So - one thing we don't like about Pow for the purpose of bending a function up or down is it is contra. The other is we have no idea how much it bends.

But the isomorph defined by Bias is really nice. It is no longer contra. Increase b, and the line bends up. Decrease b, and the line bends down. How much? Well, when "a" is .5 (exactly half way across) the output is b. Whaaaat? Sure it is.

To show why, we need to remember an important identity from algebra:

Log(Pow(a, b)) = b * Log(a)

y = Bias(.5, b)
{ Using definition of Bias }
y = Pow(.5, Log(b) / Log(.5))
{ Take the Log of both sides }
Log(y) = Log(Pow(.5, Log(b) / Log(.5))
{ using identity Log(Pow(a, b) == b* Log(a) }
Log(y) = (Log(b) / Log(.5)) * Log(.5)
{ on the right hand side, re-arrange }
Log(y) = Log(b) * (Log(.5) / Log(.5))
{ P/P = 1, where P is Log(.5) }
Log(y) = Log(b)
{ take anti-log of both sides }
y = b

QED

The Bias function was invented/discovered/popularized by Ken Perlin. Perlin also invented the Perlin Noise function and variants, AKA the Poser Fractal_Sum node, the fBm node, and the Turbulence node. He won an Academy Award in special effects for inventing the noise functions.

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/

He also invented the Gain function. It is a bit more complicated, but defined in terms of Bias.

gain(g,t)
{
return if(t<0.5,(.5bias(1.0-(g),2.0(t))),(1.0-.5bias(1.0-(g),2.0-2.0(t))));
}

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

And I thought algebra was tricky...

;o)

Laurie

so, what BB has just told us is....

www.youtube.com/watch

(corrected for proper point in video)

Well if you look in my shaders, you'll almost always find a Bias or 2 in there.

Whenever I have any sort of gradient, and I don't like the gradient because it doesn't rise fast enough or it rises too fast, I can fix it with Bias.

Bias can take all the gray values and shift them up or down, while keeping black and white unchanged.

For example, suppose I have a grayscale lip mask for lipstick. Suppose the edge of this mask is soft, and I want it to be a little harder. I use Bias(mask, .8) and where the mask is .5 it becomes .8. Darker values are increased more, lighter values are increased less so they don't go over 1.

On the other hand, if I want a gradient to rise less quickly, I'll say something like Bias(x, .2). So then where x = .5 it becomes .2. Dark values get darker but not by a lot. Brighter values get much darker. But white is still white.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here are a few demos using bias to shift a grayscale pattern.

The third one is more than just Bias. I will be explaining this in my book. (I was already working on a shader book before Coop started this process. I plan to let Deecey handle the basics for free on the SM site, and you'll have to buy the book to get the intermediate and advanced stuff.)

Robyn and CobaltDream have been reviewing the book, so they already know some of the stuff that are necessary to understand what I'm doing here in the third one. I'm using the "Complement" function.

C(x) = 1 - x

The last one is a function I came up with called IBias:

IBias(a, b) = C(Bias(C(x), 1-b))

It's very handy.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Some thoughts:

Saving poses - What each option in select poses does and when to use them.

Mat room - explain the beginner nodes (easiest to use and most commonly used ones) how they work and show what a change to a value will do.

Lighting - explain and show how all the basic lights work and show how to produce some simple effects.

Lighting - what HDRI and IBLs are, how, when, and why to use them.

Tips - general basic tips for beginners that everyone should be using. Then do intermediate and advanced tips.

Setting up external runtimes, when, and why I should use them.
How to set up my poser preferences and what each one does.
Rendering options - show how to set up render options for what you are doing, and include tips to speed up the renders or to make them look better.

Mat room - tell me if a node or an option is beginner, intermediate, advanced, or mostly useless. Show me how it works and what the changes do.

NVIATWAS - what this means.

Tips for realism
Tips for commonly used artistic effects (ie using a filter to produce a monocrome image).

And finally - how to make a bloody decent toon render with appropriate outlines.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

both the CastlePoser tutorial and a simple V Test gave me that idea:

http://www.castleposer.co.uk/articles/maths_bias.html

as far as i can tell from the tutorial's picture, the result of Bias(U, 0.8) has a transformed black isn't touching the bottom any more. even if i thought i couldn't trust the material room preview, which has a darkest color of 46, 46, 46, i have to believe this image. unless i'm missing something?

going below 0.5, white doesn't seem to be transformed. i totally don't get it.

oh! and your explanation is about what i expected _before_ double checking at CastlePoser. without thinking about the math, i imagined a transform pretty much like you described. and it completely threw me that it didn't seem to do that. i'd be much happier to be wrong, in all honesty. in this preview, the brightest color is 255, 255, 255, which is what i'd expect. and yet confusingly asymmetrical.

Quote - Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Material Room.

Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Hair Room.

I will 2nd that suggestion.

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Quote - Good instructions that cover bringing a face pic onto a Poser model, something that doesn't look incrediably lame.

Yet another Great suggestion.

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Using point lights

Quote - IAre you talking about using the Face Room, or using some other third party application like Photoshop or one of the 3D Painting applications?

Start to Finish:
Take Photos and apply to Poser Figure to Make plausable resemblance.

I would steer clear of PhotoShop and other High Priced Software.
Use something like GIMP or PSP to get the body to match the Face Room Output.

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

This wil be great, so far everything I want is listed so waiting im...patiently. 8^)

NVIATWAS - what this means. <<<<<<

ROFL that is one of the best requests in here, though it won't take a tutorial to answer it.

It SHOULD be added to an FAQ though. 8-)

Information about all the "hidden" features would be good.

how to start python scripts in the scripts menu via keyboard shortcuts
how to change existing keyboard shortcuts
how to change the port library and poser communicate (or just explain all the Poser.ini parameters)

Great thread Denise!

Yup, that it is, getting some great feedback.

I suspect I'll be busy for a while. 8-)

Poser users are visual, so tutorials should focus on effects and how to evolve them.

For example, a tutorial on creating a stone shader needs to show the following types of steps:

start with an object and add a stone type color
add bump and displacement and now it looks a little more like a rock
add a granite or other node to give it more realism
tweak the granite settings to show how it adds or detracts from that realism
maybe add a second color to vary the material
tweak those settings

Artists aren't interested in the details involved in the math. They're interested in how changes affect their image. It's more work and makes it harder to cover the larger ground that's needed, but it's what artists need.

An example of what not to show in a tutorial would be the BB link
www.castleposer.co.uk/articles/maths_chart.html
This is excellent information for somebody that's getting deep into node math, but the average artist only wants to know how it can be used to enhance an existing material node effect being created.

A tutorial on the render settings, and which should be changed for an optimal image, would be useful. I remember having trouble with atmospherics in an image and it wasn't very straightforward how to achieve the best results.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

Agree with the visual approach, and that's how I usually do it

actually, that link is only example of what not to show if people never hope to actually understand why any of those steps to making a stone shader make sense. i could show you several examples of tutorials for specific shaders, and Acadia's actually catalogued most of them. over the years, i've seen at least 4 different step-by-step skin shader threads. but people keep asking for the same sets of tutorials because they don't understand how any of those nodes work or how it made sense to put them together.

no, don't start with math. but a visual representation of what you're doing when you, for instance, use sine to make something repeat, and how other nodes work when you use them to control the frequency and amplitude of repetition, is really important. it's important to understand exactly how each one of the math nodes works and responds to variable input when you use it in a shader. as it is, most people don't even understand how to reasonably tweak any complicated shader they inherit, because they don't understand what the nodes do, what's valid input and what isn't. as a result they might be able to duplicate a shader in a tutorial, but rarely can they do more with it than change colors. i think leaving everything a black box for everyone and just doing the recipe tutorials is exactly why there's so many requests for the same materials over and over and over again. and even from the same people.

since people are in this thread asking for more than what already exists, and asking how to use the material room in general, i think it's much better to present a stone tutorial with graphs like the ones at CastlePoser every time you involve a math node than to pretend you don't need to understand the nodes to use them well.

consider more than the simple shader.

let's say your stone shader has a whole set of nodes creating a "texture" controlled by the input of a "roughness" parameter and outputting into bump, displacement and specular, whole set of nodes creating color variation controlled by a "variation" parameter, and another whole set of nodes controlling veins taking a set of parameters determining vein width, vein color and vein frequency. how do these vary according to their parameters? it's much better to show with a graph how those sets behave according to their parameters than just show each piece of the shader, and show some examples of different settings. doing all three is best.

Just so you understand, a visual approach is only ok to show somebody how to adjust a shader that has been spoon fed to them.

When I was learning Poser in my first couple years, I asked many people for help on a good leather shader. Leather is something everybody is intimately familiar with. We all know what it looks like. But no Poser "artist" was able to point me to any leather shaders except those that were part of products, that were drawn. Nobody was able to make a convincing procedural leather.

Now, to me, seeing examples of how to draw leather is useless. I can't/won't draw, because I suck at drawing, and because after I'm done I have a drawing, basically one shader, not 1000 variations on it.

Slowly I developed an understanding of the math used to manipulate Perlin Noise, and was able to connect the dots and make a convincing procedural leather shader that I can instantly apply to all sorts of things, in infinite variations of tone, color variation and patterns, roughness, shine, etc. And I mean instantly.

Now if you want to know how this leather shader works, to the point that you could make one or something similar (for example, a real granite shader, which has a lot in common with leather), then you have to learn the math. I don't mean calculus. I mean basic algebra. Like how Bias works. If you can't look at a bump map and understand how to manipulate it with a couple nodes, then you're going to have to draw the bitmap over again, which is not shader work, but texture work.

You want a book on shaders, there will be math. You want a book on textures, there will be drawing.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I don't think anyone here is saying "don't give us math." But the point is: when you give us math, show us concretely what it's doing. Give math in a way that assumes we don't "get" math in the abstract.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Quote - Give math in a way that assumes we don't "get" math in the abstract.

Bingo.

There has to be a balance between both. And it has to be presented in laymen's terms that can be understandable to people of varying experience levels.

I'll get it, doncha worry. 8-)

but to "get' math in the concrete you absolutely have to understand how it a node or group of nodes responds to various inputs. giving only a few samples (ex: here's stone with a roughness of 0.25, a variation of 0.5, and a vein of width = 0.1, color = white, density = 0.5) gives those who don't understand math less of an understanding of how things work, not more. someone who's great at it will look at the nodes and know pretty much what's happening. but those who are weakest at math need to see the graphs to get the whole continuum. they need to see where it peaks, becomes 0, or

and gagnonrich specifically said, "don't present the graphs."

You always have folks who can't understand something as it's explained by the current curriculum. For those cases, another way must be found to explain it in a way they do understand ;o). It's something teachers have been up against for years.

BB, I love that the pathways of your mind get right to the superhighways. People like me though, spend my time meandering along backroads, getting lost, getting carjacked... Math is like that for me. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide. It gets me through life. But long algebra is not one of my strong suits...lol. Even if I DO want to understand why something does what it does, it doesn't help me to understand the math because math just doesn't make sense to me. If you could put it another way, maybe give a real world example, that would help a lot more ;o). It's not that we don't want to understand, it's that a lot of us just can't. That doesn't make us stupid or unwilling to learn, but it does make us harder to reach...lol.

I've give you an example: I make chainmaille in my spare time (like I actually have any) and there are things you must know when you cut your own rings like I do - such as having to figure out aspect ratio. Your rings must be a certain size for the amount of rings that will be going thru them at a certain gauge. I did manage to get that one. But as for the different weaves, there was one that was incredibly tricky for me. I read pattern after pattern and just could not get it. I did see a video of it being done and BAM! - I discovered how simple it really was. So, some can get away with just being told how, but some have to see how ;o). I'm one of the "seers", and I'm sure I'm not alone...lol.

Anyway, just didn't want you to think that your efforts weren't appreciated or were wasted. They're not. They're just not well understood by some of us, even those of us that do want to know "WHY does it do that?" ;o).

Laurie

If I can make a suggestion: perhaps like what you did here with Bias, Bill:
market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

I keep refering back to those sorts of things. We could have a section on Bias... or we could have a section on how to shift colour values.

For example, I've been wanting to shift colour values for a skyDome image: I want to be able to incrementally darken the image within the shader without loss of image quality. It plugs into the Ambient_color channel on PoserSurface. Dusk is approaching, so the stormy sky needs to be darkened.

I get the impression from my renders that simply lowering the Ambient_Value number degrades the image quality, which i don't want.

I have no idea whether my conclusions are even correct... this is just my impression.

But anyway, I see an application of the Bias node, here, potentially.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - You always have folks who can't understand something as it's explained by the current curriculum. For those cases, another way must be found to explain it in a way they do understand ;o). It's something teachers have been up against for years.

Bingo!

I have been told by MANY publishers that the target educational level for computer books is generally geared for a high-school aged audience. This conversation is actually a GOOD example of why the materials haven't been documented extensively up to this point. With all of the various node types, all of the various settings and examples that have to be done for them, and yes, even getting into what math nodes do (and don't even get into the dPdu ones yet! LOL), you start to see the enormity of the task. And given that publishers usually don't like to make a lot of books that are more than 500-700 pages (due to costs involved in production and printing), this explains why it gets only basic coverage.

I am watching, listening, and evaluating the best approach as I read the comments, so keep them coming. I know whatever is decided might not initially make everyone happy (that will be an impossible task), but it can only get better over time.

8-)

Quote - but to "get' math in the concrete you absolutely have to understand how it a node or group of nodes responds to various inputs. giving only a few samples (ex: here's stone with a roughness of 0.25, a variation of 0.5, and a vein of width = 0.1, color = white, density = 0.5) gives those who don't understand math less of an understanding of how things work, not more. someone who's great at it will look at the nodes and know pretty much what's happening. but those who are weakest at math need to see the graphs to get the whole continuum. they need to see where it peaks, becomes 0, or

and gagnonrich specifically said, "don't present the graphs."

And gagnonrich was right. You don't present a graph in a tutorial. It isn't a matter of no principial information vs a graph. That's why I keep saying: teach us to fish, don't just give us one. It's a matter of always presenting the principial information in a concrete context. A graph is fine for an appendix or an endnote as further info; that's great.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

no graph means you don't know how to fish. it's the fishing line and tackle. unless you're enough of a math wiz to have a graphing calculator or see how a node works in your head. if you're as bad at math as everyone says they are, you cannot understand what's going on in any shader with most math nodes or anything variable without a visual of what it's doing. no matter how it's presented. there simply is no english that better describes a power curve than actually seeing it.

"You always have folks who can't understand something as it's explained by the current curriculum." look at the forums. the current curriculum, other than some of bagginsbill's posts, is ignore the math and just plug stuff in randomly and see what gives the right result in certain lighting. we already have what people are asking for here. go thorugh Acadia's thread.

It's a bit like wanting to write but not wanting anything to do with grammar.

The whole purpose of this exercise is to provide information from Those-That-Know to those artists who have been searching in vain for information about nodes and what they do. Are we going to selectively exclude information because we can't readily assimilate it ourselves, and use that inability as a barometer of how useful or relevant this information is going to be to artists in general?

This strong differences in philosophies to shader development is what has prompted me to suggest the wiki for the more technical (maths and such) side to nodes. As yet, no one (besides CobaltDream) has made any reference to this suggestion. Is it a rejected notion? And if so, why?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - This strong differences in philosophies to shader development is what has prompted me to suggest the wiki for the more technical (maths and such) side to nodes. As yet, no one (besides CobaltDream) has made any reference to this suggestion. Is it a rejected notion? And if so, why?

Not ignoring that suggestion, I am just not in a position to decide whether or not it can be done, as setting up a wiki on SM's site is beyond my authority.

Oh ... I also want to mention, that this discussion is about tutorials in general that are needed for Poser, at all skill levels. Though I want to see continued discussion on how to handle materials (and yes, I AM reading with an open mind as I'm trying to formulate my approach on them), I would also like some discussion on other tutorials that will be needed as well.

Keep it coming. 8-)

A compendium of valid shaders (which is what my perception is of the direction of this project) has validity in the same sense as DS presets. People who just want to have a material shader for turbulent water can get that shader for that sort of water.
Those who want to understand why it works the way it does - yes, there are a few clock-builders among us artists - should have access to that information.

The reason I suggest a wiki for that set of information is that it is constantly update-able by an endorsed set of experts in the field, whereas your web-pages are in the hands of a few, and once published, are pretty-much set in stone.
Setting up a wiki is no big deal: I've set one up myself. Shouldn't be a big challenge to SM: they can use the Daz model as an example, perhaps.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - no graph means you don't know how to fish. it's the fishing line and tackle. unless you're enough of a math wiz to have a graphing calculator or see how a node works in your head.

I don't buy this. A graph is not a fishing lesson. It isn't fishing line and tackle either. It's more like a reference chart to tell you what line supports what weight. That's handy, but it doesn't do you a bit of good unless you know a lot more basic stuff (what fish are in your location, how big they are etc). A graph is a reference (that's why I said it's great to have in e.g. an endnote). And it will be helpful to do refining after general uses are understood. Unless those general uses are understood, nobody but nobody is gonna care about the graph. It's the more basic stuff that will suck people into the graphs as they need them.

IMO.

Deecey, I think the big thing is to work with stuff that isn't very well-supported already. (Although some things that are "supported" by threads etc are not supported in way that the average user will ever have that support at his or her fingertips.) That's why I begged regarding the hair room. The tutorials I've seen are few in number and not all that in depth at all.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Beginners :
A tutorial on how to use the Poser manual and included tutorials.

harsh , but ...........

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Explain and how to use:

Normal Mapping
Tone Mapping

Too much read.

How about make the tutorials in a form of videos!!!

or better yet both!

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

Hmmm... I'll mention it again.... RENDER NETWORKING...

A good tutorial showing the end user how to set up a render farm and how to use the render queue manager. Yes, I've seen the video on SM's site for a VERY basic look at the render queue.
What would be nice is a complete guide on how to connect the machines together, how to set up the IP protocols, what kind of hardware works the best and what the minimum requirements are for hardware that will benefit the user on a small budget.

I'm actually surprised that I haven't seen more interest in render networking around here, considering that we already have one version of poser that is capable of it.

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AMD FX-9590 4.7ghz 8-core, 32gb of RAM, Win7 64bit, nVidia GeForce GTX 760

PoserPro2012, Photoshop CS4 and Magix Music Maker

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...and when the day is dawning...I have to say goodbye...a last look back into...your broken eyes.

I am about 40% through the MS Poser 7 book. I am retired with a 100% disabled wife to care for. I am just now finding time to study Poser. I would love examples of how you should do things. A walk through. I am having problem with what to make the Parent of things. I guess that I am just too much of a newbie at this point. If I buy a package and it comes with a pair of shoes, how do I separate them so I can make each foot the parent on each shoe? I could probably post to the Poser Newsgroup and somebody would feel sorry for me and offer to help. But, I am trying to do this on my own. I'm not that dumb, I hope, so I am keeping the Newsgroup in reserve. I exchanged an email with an old Poser user and he suggest that the best way to learn is just play with everything. That is fun and I am learning but the book is so much better if it just had more details.

If this is not clear, I want somebody to hold my hand and walk be from start to end with some samples in each chapter. I am just now starting to understand some of the very basic elements.

In sumnary - more details. especially in the beginning.

Hal

janhal - welcome and don't hesitate to ask questions in this forum. There are thousands of people lurking and for each one who comes forward like you and speaks his question, 999 benefit. We love to answer questions here. Don't worry if your question is a repeat, we'll just point you to the thread where it was already answered. We understand that the search engine is of limited use, and those of us hanging out here a lot know where the good threads are.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - ...those of us hanging out here a lot know where the good threads are.

Yep: 9 times out of 10, it's one of your threads...lmao.

Laurie

I can do it now - but just getting a character to sit in the chair was hard for me to learn. I sincerely wish that somebody would have told me/taught me how to move the joints so the character actually looked like they are sitting in the chair. I am still having problems with some of it - more on that later if I don't get it figured out today or tomorrow.

I have set aside two hours a day to work with Poser 7. I have just about got to the point that I am not going to buy anything else until I have a fairly good working knowledge. And there are a lot of things that I see for sale both here and on Daz, DNA etc.,

I guess there is just no easy way of doing things and I just need to take more time and learn. There is no 'sit in chair' pose, at least I don't have one.

I made a mistake with my first post - so let me correct it - I am working my way through Poser 7 reveled by e frontier, not by Micro Smith. I am doing it one page at a time and not jumping ahead but at this point, I have no idea how to use magnets or morphs. Have not got to the material room yet. As I said, it took me almost ten days to get used to using the dials to get my character to sit on a bench and look natural. Who would have thought that you had to move the hips back in the z zone to get the butt on the bench. Trust me, I tried just using the x and y for two of three days.

Maybe this is where I should have started. Been following the newsgroup for years. I am getting better each day but being able to ask dumb newbie questions and get an answer would have saved a lot of time. Somebody needs to write the book - "Poser for Dummies" Just simple poses are not that simple to somebody who has never used Poser. Maybe the kids in school today have no problem with x,y and z but at age 69 it took a while to understand it. It is still a problem with some poses. Can not wait until I get into reflections - I think they are so neat.

Bottom line, I think I am wanting to do way more then I should be doing at this time. I continue to marvel at some of the pictures that are posted to the newsgroup - I keep wanting to say, "How did you do that". Rina seems willing to help anybody, but unless I really get stuck or finish the book - and the second one that is waiting - which is using Poser and Photoshop, I will keep my questions here. Trust me that exchange on CG 2.2 zoomed over my head but I did save some of it to a text file for later use. Todays project is turning my character 180 degrees without moving the camera. Again, can not find the 'turn around" icon to click on so, it is back to the dials - because I know it can be done. Do I just move the feet and hope the body follows? At least when I get back down stairs, that is where I am going to start.

TIA - Hal

janhal,

We obviously take a lot for granted. Never occured to me that simply rotating the figure (not the camera) could be unclear.

Start a new thread. Call it Total Beginner Poser Room Info.

By the way, the answer is select "Body" and use yRotate.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Again, can not find the 'turn around" icon to click on so, it is back to the dials - because I know it can be done. <<

First, turn off inverse kinematics on both of the feet. Otherwise, they will "stick" to the floor. To do this, choose Figure > Use Inverse Kinematics, and uncheck both feet.

Secondly, select the BODY actor of the figure (not the clothing).

Then go into the Parameters palette, and set the yRotate dial to 180.

Quote - janhal,

We obviously take a lot for granted. Never occured to me that simply rotating the figure (not the camera) could be unclear.

Start a new thread. Call it Total Beginner Poser Room Info.

By the way, the answer is select "Body" and use yRotate.

Hello BB
I know for me, after almost 40 years At Sea, it generally was a faster process to assume nothing.
I found it most often took far less time to explain something If I started from Ground Zero.

I frequently encounter this with my grandson and grandaughter.

Cheers
DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

I hear you but I can show you a thread at the Node Cult where somebody we didn't know came in, asked some questions, showed confusion, and when I started to explain as if this person knew nothing, he complained that the postings were overly didactic, and that some of the stuff was insulting, as if I thought he was a newb.

I run into this more often than I'd like, so I tend to be sensitive to it. I err on the side of assuming you know more, because when I assume the reader knows less, quite often the reader gets pissed at me.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

What would I like to see in Tutorials?

Material Node trees and creating real world materials, glass with ior and metal
Rigging characters...including EYES (this step is always missed in tutorials)
Rigging clothing, not just shirts, but Armor, when you dont want the piece right next to it effecting the movement
Animation keys and pallet. Adjusting the motion inbetween keys not to look like a rag doll
hmmm, still thinking!

My Store My Gallery Contact

Quote - I
I run into this more often than I'd like, so I tend to be sensitive to it. I err on the side of assuming you know more, because when I assume the reader knows less, quite often the reader gets pissed at me.

I here you loud and clear on that one as well.

A bit of a doubled edged sword here.

If I am looking for new information I take no offense to starting at the beginning. After all I am the one asking for the instructor's time and knowledge.

No matter how you do it, i for one am a great fan and much appreciative of all the teaching you offer to the Poser Community.

I am having lots of fun with your IDL Hallway concept.

Cheers
DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

This may sound very very simplistic to many seasoned Poser Users.

I see this one all over the Poser forums:

"How do I Import Figure X,Y and Z into poser 8?"
I also see "How do I import my P5,P6 & P7 into Poser 8?"

When I see the word "Import" that appears to me as needing some help.

Definetly a concise section of "Poser External Runtimes" would be helpful to new users.

After explaining that in a NewsGroup one day i heard, Ohh!, thats what that plus (+) is used for.

With Daz's method of Installers looking for the Poser.exe file, mentioninf the use of the Daz Studio Option during installation would be nice.

Also PoserPro does not have a Poser.exe file, it has a PoserPro.exe file, my guess is PoserPro2010 will also have a PoserPro.exe file. This throws Daz Installers into a tailspin because they cannot find the Poser.exe file.

I would certainly like to see more on the Poser SetUp Room
Using a pre-exiting Skelton into the new object would be helpful. Such as with Clothing.
My guess is that a Figures clothes share the same skeleton as the Figure?????

cheers
DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Also PoserPro does not have a Poser.exe file, it has a PoserPro.exe file, my guess is PoserPro2010 will also have a PoserPro.exe file. This throws Daz Installers into a tailspin because they cannot find the Poser.exe file. <<

The best and easiest workaround for this issue is to select the "DAZ Studio" installation option in the DAZ installers. This installs ALL files in the pack, including the Poser files, without the need to point to a Poser.exe file.

Yeah, that's why Mariner said the DAZ Studio option should be mentioned.

Or you can just make a dummy Poser.exe file.

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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Quote - Yeah, that's why Mariner said the DAZ Studio option should be mentioned.

Or you can just make a dummy Poser.exe file.

Many Thanks
Yes that was my point.
I cannot count the number of times I have seen this question in various forums, including the Daz Forums.

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Here's one:
Why are there black lines on some of the things I render?
Try turning off smooth polygons for the object.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

There are some issues I would like to see addressed as well ...

I am working on a project where I need specific looks for the clothing I am using. Some of the items that I need have been purchased from reputable vendors, others not quite as well known.

I will not say who the vendors are, and I will not say what the products are. BUT I have found the following issues in some of the products that I have purchased:

(1) UV Mapping. Some products are UV mapped VERY VERY poorly, to the point that trying to create decent new textures for the object are nearly impossible without UV mapping the object all over again.

(2) SPLIT OBJ's. If you try to UV map the object, you discover that the raw OBJ files are split apart at the groups. Some UV mapping programs will treat the individual groups as separate objects and split them apart on the UV map when automatically unfolding them. This isn't desirable, both for UV mapping, AND for morphing the clothing or figure in a third party application. OBJ files SHOULD be welded together at the groups, it makes for better morphing and rendering in the end product.

(3) Clothing that is saved in a non-zero pose, and with Inverse Kinematics turned on. REMOVE INVERSE KINEMATICS on clothing and zero the figure.

(4) Earlier it was said that there isn't much you can do to make a bad pose. Ah, but there is. 8-) Be careful of body transformations, including morphs that you don't want to include, and so on and so forth.

(5) BONE GEOMETRY ... one of the products that I purchased was probably rigged in Poser's setup room. There is hip bone geometry in one of the actual OBJ files that SHOULD NOT be in there.

If I didn't know how to correct these issues, I probably would be returning some of these products.

In short, there are a lot of things on the content creation end of things that should be revisited and documented.

making & using dynamic hair
grouping a mesh and bone-rigging it (to make a posable figure)
making a morph (such as a custom face) and saving it
UV mapping: junctures of tree limbs to trunk, for example

Poser 12, in feet.

OSes: Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

o.k., I'm encouraged by scanning the msgs in this thread that the free tutorials and bill's book will be applicable to poser 8 and earlier. I was worried from reading other IDL threads that poser 8 was already obsolete and we all need to move on to PP2010, but apparently poser 6/7/8 users aren't out in the cold yet.

Quote - Bias is actually an isomorph of Pow. (See how I like to use the shorthand possible when everybody learns all the words?)

Bias(a, b) = Pow(a, Log(b) / Log(.5))

Thank you so much. I've been using Pow to modify transparency maps for a while, and it looks like Bias will be so much easier to use.

Dunno if it's been mentioned, but I'd like to tutorials on writing (poser-specific) Python scripts.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Some more beginner to intermediate tutorials that would be useful:

Adding props to a figure's hand that aren't smartpropped. I tend to build an image by first posing figures and then adding clothing and props. I learned the hard way that it's a lot easier to save the file I'm working on, start a new one, load the default figure, put the prop in the figure's hand, and save it as a smart prop. Then the saved file can be reopened and loading the smartprop will put it in the posed figure's hand. It otherwise takes hours to try to move a prop into a posed figure's hand because of the awkwardness of moving a 3D object in a 2D interface.
Similarly, tutorials on adding hair to characters they weren't designed for; and parenting two hands together (such as for a sword or baseball bat).
Importing 3ds, dxf, lightwave, and obj and dealing with import issues and gimbal lock.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

Good suggestions, on the list they go!

Thanks Deecey, I'll be looking forward to these.

I'd like to see:

Beginner:

I'm not a beginner, but I am still using Poser 6 and have gotten a lot of mileage out of it. But I know I'll be going to Poser 2010 when it's available. Maybe some type of short-n-sweet to get users up to speed that may be upgrading from such an older version?
Content / runtime management - for example how to deal with multiple runtimes so as to optimize speed and memory management. Would be awesome if there were specifics for filmmakers. :)

Intermediate/Advanced:

Maybe a step-by-step on how to animate hair? :)
using videos as backgrounds (and any greenscreen tips - I made some greenscreen and bluescreen backgrounds for DVD and HD resolution if you'd like to have them)
animated materials
batch rendering of movies or stills
comparison of screen colors vs. print colors vs. video colors and how to get good results across all these mediums
And definitely second cyberscape's request on render farm & hardware info.

Thanks!

How to change the point of origin of a prop. There are far to many props that, when you rotate them around an axis actually rotate a point well outside.

How to avoid "gimbal lock". Why, if something is vertical and facing you, you can't just rorate it onto its back and then 45 degrees to the left and get what you want.

Sorry everyone,but I have have come into this thread late.I would like to see a step by step video tutorial on how to animate a human figure from A to Z with no jerky movement. I have been using Poser since version 4 and I still cannot get it right.Also a video tutorial on how to render hi end animations.Cheers

Custom built computer 128 gigs RAM,4 Terabyte hard drive, NVIDIA RTX 4060 TI 16 GIG Gig,12 TH Generation Intel i9, Dual LG Screens, 0/S Windows 11, networked to a Special 12th Generation intel I9, RTX 3060 12 Gig, Windows 11,64 gigs RAM, Dual Phillips Screens, 2 Terabyte SSD Hard Drive plus 1 Terabyte Hard Drive,3rd Computer intel i7,128 gigs ram, Graphics Card NVIDIA RTX 3060 Gig,1 Terabyte Hard Drive, OS Windows 11 64 Bit Dual Samsung Syncmaster 226bw Screens.Plus INFINITY Laptop 64 Bit,64 gigs RAM.Intel i9 chip.Windows 11 Pro and Ultimate. 4 x 2 Terrabyte Hard Drives and 2 x 2 Terrabyte external USB Hard drives. All Posers from 4 to Poser 2010 and 2012, 2014. Poser 11 and 12, 13, Hexagon 2.5 64 Bit, Carrara 8.5 Pro 64 bit, Adobe Photoshop CS4 Creative Production Suite. Adobe Photoshop CC 2024, Vue 10 and 10.5 Infinite Vue 11 14.5 Infinite plus Vue 15 and 16 Infinite, Vue 2023 and 2024, Plant Catologue, DAZ Studio 4.23, iClone 7 with 3DXchange and Character Creator 3, Nikon D3 Camera with several lenses. Nikon Z 6 ii and Z5. 180-600mm lens, 24-70 mm lens with adapter.Just added 2x 2 Terrabyte portable hard drives.

A detailed list of the python methods available in Poser as well as the poser extensions to the language with examples of how these extensions are used. Any and all variables defined within Poser as well as they relate to python.

I don't ask for much. LOL

Quote - Sorry everyone,but I have have come into this thread late.I would like to see a step by step video tutorial on how to animate a human figure from A to Z with no jerky movement. I have been using Poser since version 4 and I still cannot get it right.Also a video tutorial on how to render hi end animations.Cheers

the best way that I have seen to do animation so as not to be jerky is to do a google search for free bvh(may have some wrong letters in there I'm tired) and download them. There is a guy in Japan that is making some really good ones. some are free some are for sale. They are not poser only though. you will have to ignore some of the body parts, but it don't affect the animation at all.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: OK ... so whaddya wanna learn about Poser?

NoelCan: Lighting and materials are top of My list.

Believable3D: Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Material Room.

Believable3D: Detailed but intelligible instructions regarding the Hair Room.

BloodRoseDesign: Good instructions that cover bringing a face pic onto a Poser model, something that doesn't look incrediably lame.

hborre: IDL: The theory, the concepts and settings.