As you might - or might not - have already heard, CuriousLabs is about to start a copy protection as soon as the forthcoming PPP bugfix, which will seriously limit the way how you can install and use your Poser. You will need an activation key which only works with your current configuration, and you will have to re-register whenever it changes. Steve Cooper made some very cryptic remarks at some other thread recently, which leaves you guessing when exactly the new code is needed - first it looked like every Poser install, then he claimed that it would even survive a disk format (which - frankly - doesn't seem to be likely). I'd like to make very clear that I support every reasonable way to fight warez, and have backed - as good as I could as a simple member by keeping an eye on suspicious activity - all MetaCreations, CuriousLabs, Zygote, DAZ, and independent artists whenever they got attacked by pirates. However, I also strongly believe in consumer rights, especially those of legal, loyal and honest users. This new "copy protection" has a couple of serious consequences which should and must be considered by every legal user: 1) You can't install your copy of Poser just on your own any longer - never again. Whenever this "protection" notifies a change, you are dependent on a contact with CuriousLabs. If this can't be established (because the server is down or you are without a connection), your use of Poser will be temporarily limited, and permanently cut off in the long term. This is especially critical if you depend on Poser as a source of your financial living. 2) You are dependent on CuriousLabs' grace when a new Poser version is released - if they stop to supply older activation keys, they (or any company that buys them) can force you to buy the update by stopping the old codes. 3) If CuriousLabs goes out of business, your Poser becomes worthless and all your money that you spent in both Poser itself and supplementary files (figure purchases) becomes void. The fall of MetaCreations clearly proved that a fading company does not care about their users, e.g. when they left localized RDS users in the wilderness. If none of this affects you personally - fine! However, if it does bother you, it's probably good to read on. While Mr. Cooper's statements make it seem pointless to argue or protest against it (because it obviously is a finally decided fact), it raises a lot of legal questions which are not entirely within CuriousLabs' influence. By chance, the recent copy of the German c't magazine (9/2001 on sale till 6.5.2001) has two articles which are of highest interest for all German Poser users, and I can only recommend to get hold of a copy. First of all, there is an extensive article about the forthcoming WindowsXP which is supposed to include a similar type of activation key as Poser (although still weaker, because they claim it is completely anonymious and does not force the user to register with personal data). To cut a long story short - it is very likely that this activation key will break German law, and that the lawsuits against them (which are already under construction) will be successful - like similar final court decisions in the very recent past. The result would be either the forced removal of the codes, or the users are entitled to claim back their money. Even more interesting, on page 46 there is a short note on the German Poser ProPack. According to Egi.Sys, the German localized PPP will not include the copy protection due to "uncertainties of the legal situation". Unfortunately it does not mention whether the initial German PPP already incorporates the bugfix. This raises another problem: Any protection like this will be clearly illegal without a significant warning before the purchase - WindowsXP will have a warning sticker for customers (which is not at all sufficient according to c't's lawyers). Anyhow, the initial PPP does not have any warning like this, and it is essentially lacking because of the number of bugs. But releasing the necessary bugfix with the protection would then definitely break local law. Apart from this - selling the initial version as a "normal" piece of software, and then suddenly adding this protection with the first bugfix could be seen "questionable" in every other respect, to say the least. An important thing that should be considered in future is the place of purchase. I'm not a lawyer, but I guess you should make sure to buy PPP from a local based re-seller, because this will significantly improve your chances for legal action and possible re-claims, while direct purchases from overseas resources will certainly make your position weaker. According to your own local consumer rights, this might be equally true for other European countries. Now the world is really getting smaller every day. The fact is, that local re-sellers must grant minimal consumer rights on their own, even if their goods originate from different countries which do not protect their people - and they are liable for it. If they dont't want to take that risk, they can't sell the product. I'd like to add a personal remark at the end. As said above, I tried to support everyone's rights in the past, but "everyone" includes honest users as well. CuriousLabs has earned an amount of sympathy and support by their user community which is rare in today's world. This support - which goes far beyond average moral behaviour - has certainly helped to fight the darker sides of the net in the past, we all witnessed the degree of support and solidarity whenever it has been needed. However, if they now think they can hit pirates by kicking honest users, they start to act like a doctor who fights cancer by killing the patient. We all know that certain other software companies are rather seen as "enemies" by their own customers, which significantly influences the way how they react upon infringements against them and their attitute towards the abusers. If a significant number of potential users everywhere stops buying it, because they draw their very own dividing line right here & now, and if no local re-seller deals with it anymore (because they are afraid of damage re-claims) and magazines recommend to avoid overseas orders (like they already do) the result could be nothing less than disastrous - for all of us.

They do anything like this and I will NEVER, EVER buy any of their products again! If this is true... they are MORONS... they will alienate and/or lose MANY of their true customers in an effort to stop a few illegitimate ones. I too condone reasonable attempts to get rid of so illegal copying... what is proposed above is NOT reasonable. That's even worse than a hardware dongle key! Guess it's time to start saving up for 3DMax, looks like my days of patroning Poser will end at version 4.

Martin, You have bought up some great points, and like yourself, I have also been active in letting companies know when I have seen their products on warez sites. When I first read about this new copy protection scheme, I could understand why Curious Labs had done it, but did not understand why us innocent users had to suffer in such a way. These are the reasons for my hesitance in using this type of protection: 1. All that Martin has mentioned above. 2. As you say Martin, software companies come and go, and I don't fancy having a useless piece of software that I can't use because the company no longer exists. 3. It would be nice to see CL help them selves out a bit more. It has taken them longer to sort out a registration procedure for it's existing customers, than it has to develop and release a new product (PPP). 4. Maybe they should look at Maxons way of handling piracy. 5. Just 2 weeks ago I let CL know about a giant warez site, that has everything on there from Adobe Premier, Lightwave, Poser 4 to Partition Magic etc. Went to check to see if it was still up on seeing this post...and yes it was. I'm starting to wonder if the support that we try to give software companies is really taken that seriously! It is funny that you mention Germany, as it is a part of the EU, so the same laws could be in force in other EU countries. What ever CL does, I will always support software companies against the threat of piracy, but not at the cost of a "sharp stick in the eye" for being supportive to them in the past. Cheers

 

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Egads! I'm so depressed now. Do I even want to keep buying accessories (like Vicki 2) for a product that appears I will not be supporting in the future....

Personally, I think thats a bad idea, if I had to download an update all of the time and have the company have the potential to be able to cease my use of the program, I think that isnt fair. It loses all of the simple uses of a program, whats next, having to type in a username and a password to be able to use each program???? Also if this program is able to send out the times I use the program and all of that out to the companies, isnt that an invasion of privacy? Also I have documents and such on my computer, which are private, if their programs are capable of monitoring piracy, then is there a chance that these built in utilities can send out other data as well? (passwords, credit card numbers, online ordering info) If this could potentially give the companies the power to do that to my computer, I definatly think the software industry would crash, because to have my privacy invaded is a terrible thing. Also if this "Limits" your uses of poser, does this mean being unable to use two copies on two different computers that I own? If companies can shut off your use of the program, then couldnt they just force you to buy updates and such? Personally thats scary, and unfair. That is my two cents, maybe some more change will be thrown in later :)

I agree that if they do the above, then they may as well kiss their business goodbye. People will do "reasonable" things to use a program, but jumping through hoops everytime something changes is not one of them. I have always said that the people who use illegal copies of programs really don't ever use them for anything worthwhile anyway. Usually it's just a trophy to say that they have it. Learning a program like Poser, lightwave, max, and many others takes an enormous amount of time and energy. These individuals don't "usually" invest that kind of effort into learning what they steal. In the end, would they buy that product if it wasn't able to be copied? I don't think so. As was said above, That's my two cents. I know people from Curious Labs monitor this page, do they have anything to say on this whole matter? Dragontales

Ack! Still depressed. I feel betrayed by the very company I have been trumpheting for years. I feel like someone who has been voting for a senator for years and campaigning for him... only to find out that he plans on completely destroying my state's enivronment... all for a few extra dollars. Kind of like... "Oops... I forgot to mention this earlier... but I'm a complete bastard"."

I have a copy here at work and a copy at home. I definatly will not uninstall it at home, reinstall it at work, work on it, uninstall it at work, reinstall it at home. When demands like requiring them to call everytime I need to reinstall start, I normally say no. After all I would have had to call them 6 times already in the past month for my home computer for each reinstall. My name would be flagged and they would start searching to see if I used pirated software. I don't like people looking into my life in all honesty. Anyone who disagress is free to put up their real name, home address, and social security number.

Oh well I already own lightwave 6.5 and cinema 4DXL and poser4 with the first propac release so i will most likely be saying goodbye to poser except for exporting my current poser figures mike& vicky as lightwave objects and rigging them in lightwave. Mocap

Hi Martin, I'm with you in this point, but there is a very simple and effective way to beat such activities: Just don't buy such software! Since I can't beat the feeling that recent updates are mostly made to please shareholders and not for adding usefull features for customers, it's an easy decision. (or could anyone give me just one good reason why I should update my Excel 97, Win 98, Photopaint9 ??) So what about PPP? OK, it's a "must have" for me since I heard about it and I'm looking forward that they accomplish the international versions soon, but if they would offer me such a "copy protection" the consequence would be that they'll lost a customer for ever. I'm a hard working and honest man, and nobody should treat me like a pirate or thief if he want me to spend my money for his products. Nor should anybody try to force me to visit his website and wast my time for his copy protection. (Guess that's the real reason for such a "copy protection") But let's wait what happens. I think this curiouslab guys are reasonable people who knows who makes them pay their bills. I can't belive that a company with such outstanding products and a good reputation in the community will realize such an dubious idea. I guess and hope that this is just a rumor. my 2 cents Thomas

I have a desktop and a laptop. My understanding of software licenses is that there can only be one concurrent use of the software at a time per license. I can either let anyone use it from one of my computers, or only I can use it from any computer I install it on. I choose option 2. (I don't play well with others. ;-) ) Soon I won't be able to do even that. I repeat a conclusion from an earlier post with all my problems with PPP: Character Studio is looking better and better all the time. I already have Max. I hate the hardware dongle but it'll be an easier solution to move the dongle between computers than use CL's solution.

With the software dongle that is being implemented in the Poser Pro Pack, you only need to connect to the Curious Labs website ONE TIME. You have a grace period from the time of installation to make that connection. CL server downtime is not an issue because they are not going to be down for several days straight. If you install Poser on a machine that is not connected to the internet, you can call their offices for the unlock code. For most internet connected users, this process will be invisible and no extra work for us. The only time you would need to connect to their server again is to unlock Poser if you installed it on a new machine or a new hard drive. Honest users ability to use Poser will never be "cut off" unless A) Curious Labs goes out of business AND B) The hard drive you install it all becomes completely un-usable.

Martin you are mixing terms and exaggerating this. Curious Labs is only using methods already established by other 3D Software manufactures such as Newtek and Discreet. I highly suggest that you re-read Steve's posts and the information in the Newsletter with an attempt to understand the new system rather than to feed some sort of conspiracy theory.

But what will I (as a GERMAN Poser User) do if I have to update my ENGLISH Version of Poser? Will there be a copy production issue for me too? Or will I be forced to buy a german - localized - PPro? I don't think I will buy a product using some"illegal" copy-protection features. But - we all know abot this fact - there are some "major keys" for all this "Microsoft XP" stuff all around the net; You could read about this in several computer magazines also. I don't think that this type of copy protection will work for a long time.

You can reinstall Poser Pro on the same machine as many times as you want without needing a new auth number or contacing CL. You can even have it installed on 3 machines simultaneously.

ookami, if you're planning on saving up for Max, be prepared for more limited copy protection devices you have to deal with.

Mocap, if you own Lightwave 6.5 you know about the unlock code they require. This is all CL is doing...and no hardware dongle.

No JKeller... according to the article above... if it can't go out to the internet and verify something... it gives you a limited version. WHAT THE HELL?! So now I can't use Poser on my laptop?! I'd rather deal with a hardware dongle I can stick on my laptop's parallel or serial port. MUCH easier. PLUS... I use Poser on 2 seperate machines.... but I'm doing it by moving the hard drive from one machine to the other using a removeable hard drive bay. What happens now? It is "coded" for one machine... but not the other?! Bullsht. Oh well... Poser was nice while it lasted.... This is one of those cases where greed will get the best of them. They aren't Lightwave, 3DMAX or Autocad... high powered applications used by movie and multimedia professionals... Poser is probably 80% amateur/casual users. They're going to cut their own throats. Oh well... believe what you want. I will not buy the next version if they try and pull sht like this. And I'm sure there are quite a few other people who won't either.

"according to the article above..."

What article? The first article Martin mentions is about Windows XP and the next one has to do with the fact that the German version of Poser Pro won't include this device. According to Steve Cooper, you only have to connect to the internet ONE TIME to get your auth code an you are set.

Hardware dongles can break and in office settings they get stollen. Replacing a Hardware dongle requires the company is still in business, and it often costs you money to get the replacement. Plus downtime waiting for them to ship you the new one.

I'm not sure how it will work with your swappable hard drive, but I'm sure there's some solution.

Well, if curiouslabs do that, i think poser is over. We only have to think one thing, all this protection only goes against legal poser propietaries. All the protections the software companies try to do always are desprotected by the pirates, only we have to look around us. This protections always go against legal propietaries, this is not the initial intention of software companies, but at last , this is that it happens. I hope, for the good of poser world, curious labs dont do that.

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adh3d website

The copy protect sounds like the Vbox system or something similar. I use several programs delivered electronically using Vbox -- from Digital Origin, Macromedia and Adobe. So far only Adobe GoLive 5 had the restriction on movement and re-installation of the registered program. (but Adobes license does allow for a home copy and office copy). The technology also allows for full version time-limited demos which can't be reset so I think the claim about surviving a disk format is valid. It only requires contact with Vbox on installing/purchasing it. So far I haven't had any problems but I haven't had to re-licence my copy of GoLive yet. My main concerns are backup of the program and continuing upgrading of my hardware. (It might work to stick the program on an external drive, I don't know) The big incentive for me was price. It was cheaper and quicker than getting a boxed version. If Curious gives a substantial discount and ESD, it might encourage people to use it. (The feature set of 5 had better be good too) I do think its a very bad move to tie a bug fix with the implementation of the scheme. Cynically I wonder how long it will take hackers to circumvent it, ultimately its all only a delaying tactic. As for Curious going out of business, the worry would be for both Curious and Vbox (or whoever handles the scheme) to go bust. I do think the new system will be a PR headache to Curious if only to get its customers to trust them and buy into the system. How long it lasts will probably depend on Curious's bottom line. If they make more money they'll continue with it, if customers leave in droves they'll probably rethink their position. If a competitor comes out with a similar unprotected compatable product, it would also require a rethink. The big difference with the Adobe product was I had a choice with GoLive to buy a version in a box that had no restrictions (apart from normal license) --I may even still be able to purchase a standard CD ROM version and paper manual for an extra charge. Curious doesn't seem to be offering that choice. Its a pity that legit users are seemingly being at best inconvenienced, at worst punished because of pirate users. Depressing all right but I wouldn't get too paranoid about it.

JKeller I can not understand how you will only have to visit the site once to register on the software dongle. The only way that can happen is if the registration info is kept on a hidden partition, a whole can of worms in it self. As soon as you re-format, and try to install Poser again, as far as the software is concerned it is a brand new machine, unless the software has to connect to CL to varify that the registered user of the computer tallies with the serial number of the software. Exactly how much info is needed about your PC to make this registration process feasable? Cheers

 

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I would HIGHLY understand the procedures like that being done with 3d studio max, lightwave, and all other big name applications, but we are all talking about a $300 piece of software in which is not really necessary. Also will the poser prices go up because of the anti piracy tools they are making for it? Prices WILL go up because of that, which is stupid, like Dragontales says "the people who use illegal copies of programs really don't ever use them for anything worthwhile anyway." I agree so much with that statement, I think the companies are at no loss, because the people who had to drive themselves to search and download a copy of the software, they most likely would not buy it because if they had the money for it, they would have been willing to buy it!

Attached Link: http://www.curiouslabs.com/labReport/features/stories/html/locksUpdaters.html

Folks here's the link to Steve Cooper's article on this in the CL Newsletter. This is not a big secret, and yes it is going to happen. But like Robert Belton said, it's nothing to get paranoid about.

Darth, considering how many warez copies were distributed in the first week of Pro Pack's release, it seems that some procedure is neccessary.

Well boys and girls, curiouslabs tell us: Let me enter in your computer because i need to know you are using a legal copy. Well, they are asking for us we trust in them, but they dont trust in us. Well, my computer is mine, Curious labs or any other software company is not the owner of my computer. And guys, we are talking about a cheap program, Who is so stupid to get a warez copy of this program .

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adh3d website

They are not entering your computer. When you register, your computer asks them for an unlock code.

Who is so stupid? Check the Forum news board and take a look at how many people they have to bann from this site. And that's just a small percentage.

...and yes it is going to happen... Yes... and THIS is going to happen... I won't buy it... Wow... look at that... they just loss a customer... and it wasn't due to warez.

Yes i know, there is many stupid people. Whe CL do that, How many time do you think pass till a pirate do warez copy of the protected program? one week, one month....

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adh3d website

ookami, I suggest you read up on this issue with an open mind before you jump to conclusions. If you want to stop using a tool that you are very good at (IMHO) I can't stop you, but I would hope you atleast make an attempt to understand the facts instead of basing your decision on a misunderstanding of the issue.

adh3d, locks keep honest people honest. This probably won't stop or slow down your hard core hackers and folks who get all their software from warez sites, but what it will do is stop people who don't realize they are doing anything wrong. Like folks who borrow CD's from a friend at school or at work.

Well, that's a great way of doing things, to avoid children in the school share cd, all the people who use poser to do profesional work have to have a headache everytime we are going to chage something. I have poser 4, i am going to buy poser 5 when it will go to the market, but if poser 5 will have this, sorry, but i stop in poser 4.

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adh3d website

It's a lot more than just children at school, adh3d, and I'd be willing to bet folks who lend CD's to their friends are the cause of more lost customers (people who would otherwise purchase the program) than what takes place on "warez" sites. Both cases are still illegal.

I have no problem at all if it works like the one with Max- you plug a dongle into your printer port, you install the software, you get 30 days to call in your serial number,when you do you get a "real" number that works forever, on any other machine you put the dongle on. I'd like to see some kind of provision for running the software on another machine though, right now I have Poser on a Mac at another location. Keeps honest peopler honest, but I think there are still tons of Warez copies of Max out there. There seems to be a lot of people with nothing better to do than to crack and steal software. Maybe what we really need is a course on ethics at every school!

No need to stop using poser altogether, just don't buy poser 5. I certainly won't if this is put in.

I think they'll lose more than one. They think that they'll make more money by keeping it out of warez sites? Those people who get their software from warez sites do not buy software! I have been waiting patiently to see if PPP would be worth the money, (by reading the forums, not warez!) obviously it is not, by the number of bugs and now this. Hey look, they just lost another legit customer, and I saved $200. I do feel sorry for those who have already bought PPP or those that need it for work though. I think that I fall into the majority of Poser4 users, I'm a hobbist.

Hi JKeller, just to make that clear, for Lightwave and Cinema4D you have to register and get your "final serial number" or unlock code once. IMO forcing customers to register isn't legal either but that's another story. The point is, that if one have got his final unlock code from Newtek or Maxon he can install the software on every machine and theoretical for ever. You'll not be forced to have any further contact to the company. If it is that what CL want to do, ok, I'll hate it but I could live with that. Updating the unlock code for any reason is just not acceptable for me. An other point is, that PPP is just an add on for Software like Lightwave or Max. Some Lightwave user have 10 and more of such commercial add ons and plug ins. Now imagine how delighted one would be if every company had such a software protection and one have to update 10+ lock codes every time he change the machine. regards Thomas

From how I understand it Jim, it works similar to that, except that there is no hardware dongle and you need to get a seperate unlock code for each new machine you install it on. You don't even need to call them, because you can handle it all straight through the website. Although you do have the option to call them and handle it that way.

Well. Poser 4 is a great program.

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adh3d website

From how I understand it Jim, it works similar to that, except that there is no hardware dongle and you need to get a seperate unlock code for each new machine you install it on. You don't even need to call them, because you can handle it all straight through the website. Although you do have the option to call them and handle it that way. And if you don't have internet access from the PC you are installing Poser on? JOY! JOY!

Well, its been somewhat disappointing watching poser for the past year or two. with the whole meta creations-curious labs deal, the somewhat disappointing pro pack, and now this? how long do they think it will take till someone is able to crack it? What do they think this is, frickin Maya?I am an honest poser user, I paid good money for poser 2, 3, 4, and the pro pack, why do i have to suffer? I guess ill just uninstall and reinstall my Metacreations copy of poser 4. Like many of you have said, maybe it's time to move on to 3d studio max... or maya.... anyone spare some change? $3500 to be exact? --------------------End Rant-------------------------

I eagerly await an update for the pro pack to fix my problems with max 4, but I am not sure its worth it to upgrade now that my ease of use is decreased. I do understand Curious Labs' stand on the warez, but were your sales REALLY suffering? It is said over and over that the people who bootleg software NEVER pay for software, and that is completely true in my opinion. I think there would be a big loss of customers on account of this convenience we all had, which will soon be taken away, with every update we download, and have Curious Labs control my use of the program, that is a bad thing for me. This is all like saying, if I bought a video game, (if bought it should become MY POSESSION) but if the company has total control of my ownership of that game, then I guess it really wouldnt be owning it! Software should be treated as property, and if I bought lets say.... Poser 5, I think it should be my property, not to be controlled by the company, and have them check me each day to make sure I am not pirating anything.

Ok, after reading the long.....line of messages, I basically have a couple questions regarding this issue. Perhaps they were answered above, but...well, call me stupid. 1. Each machine I install it on, will need a new unlock code, right? 2. Do I need to reconnect and get a new lock code if I reinstall the software on the same computer, or is there a place where you type in the original lock code? 3. If there is a place for the original lock code, what prevents me from using that same lock code on the other machine? 4. Is it mandatory to register my program with CL to use the new software? Dragontales

ookami, re-read that same paragraph you just quoted from me. If you don't have internet access on that machine, you just call them for an unlock code.

Darth, they are not checking you every day, and I think that is how a lot of people are unfortionately misinterpretting this issue.

"people who bootleg software NEVER pay for software"
That's a falicy. You seem to think there are only two groups: good, honest users and warez kiddies. The truth is there is a lot of gray area inbetween.

Right Hemisphere went that route and it sucks. I didn't know that before you format you have to unregister the program in order to reregister it. Took multiple calls and emails to get it straightened out. I will update once just to get the update, but I will never buy another product from CuriousLabs again. Any warez site has ways to get around ANY dongle, copy protection out there. Basically I read that they just change the code so it doesn't look for the dongle or cd or whatever. I hate piracy, but I am DAMN sick and tired of being punished for it. I have an account at the bank. So if multiple robbieries occur I have to be the one responsible for making up the loss to the friggin bank???? Let's put a STOP to this by boycotting these companies. I've HAD it with being ripped off by the very companies I have been SUPPORTING by purchasing their products. They need to remember where the dollars COME from...not where they GO!!! Marque

dragontales, this is just how I understand the issue from what I've read.

1. Yes, you need a new unlock code for each seperate machine.

2. No, you can reinstall the software on the same machine as many times as you want, without needing to enter the original code at all. It stores this information on your hard drive the first time, and will read it each time you reinstall.

3. Each new machine you install it on, it writes a seperate lock code on your hard drive. Each seperate lock code requires a specific unlock code to uninstall it.

4. I beleive you do need to register your program, at some point within the grace period, in order to use it after the grace period is up.

ookami, re-read that same paragraph you just quoted from me. If you don't have internet access on that machine, you just call them for an unlock code. Uh... no... THAT was my point exactly! Now I have to call them... joy... joy! Do I WANT to call them?! NO! Do I WANT to waste my time on hold or talking to someone... I have better things to do with my time than to sit on the phone waiting around for an unlock code for a $300 piece of software. "people who bootleg software NEVER pay for software" That's a falicy. You seem to think there are only two groups: good, honest users and warez kiddies. The truth is there is a lot of gray area inbetween. Right... there's (a) the people who try it and then buy it because it's good... and (b) the people who try it and don't buy it because it's crap... and (c) the people who toy around with it... get bored and move on to the next thing... and finally... (d) the people who like it but don't buy it. Ok... just assuming that those are the basic categories... are they losing any sales from category (a)? Nope. In fact, they are gaiing sales. Loosing sales from category (b)? Not really... those people who probably just return it anyway and definately wouldn't be repeat customers. What about (c)? Perhaps a few. And finally (d). Yes... (d) people suck. But I don't feel like being punished because they suck.

1. Yes, you need a new unlock code for each seperate machine. Each seperate machine? So, for instance, I have it on ONE removeable hard drive that I use in 2 machines - my work machine and my home machine. If it writes the code to the hard drive... which code does it read? Does this mean it will only work on one machine now? 2. No, you can reinstall the software on the same machine as many times as you want, without needing to enter the original code at all. It stores this information on your hard drive the first time, and will read it each time you reinstall. What if the hard drive blows up? New code? What if you install a new version of Windows? New code? What if you use disk compression? New code? No code? What if you move the hard drive to a new machine? New code? What if you then stick the hard drive back in the original machine? New code? Sorry... it's just alot of extra headaches for us legitimate users. And you know it's probably going to take oh.... about an hour or so for some 12-year-old pimply faced whiz kid to crack it anyway. Then it goes back up on the warez sites... but the legitimate customers have to suffer through greater burdens.... WHERE DOES THE INSANITY END?!

Scenario (18 months from now): You have had Poser 5 for 6 months, and last month CL went bust and ceased trading. You have found that your PC cannot handle the more advanced software or complex Poser scenes that you are now creating. You decide that you need a major PC upgrade, but how are you suppose to do that and keep PoserYOU DONT! Steve Coopers press statement at the website does not promise anyone that CL will be around for as long as you want to use Poser. If CL went belly up, do you think they would really care if there where thousands of users unable to use the software that they paid for, because they need a new PC. You dont think that CL could go bust? Look at the reasons why they are prepared to use this software dongle in the first place. Within 6 months of the release of the software dongle (if not sooner), cracks will be floating around the web. If Steve Cooper could promise (and I mean promise) that provisions have been put in place (in the unlikely event that CL did cease trading), that registered and license abiding users could use the software for as long as they like on any machine, then that would ease a lot of fears. Cheers

 

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1) You can't install your copy of Poser just on your own any longer - never again. Whenever this "protection" notifies a change, you are dependent on a contact with CuriousLabs. If this can't be established (because the server is down or you are without a connection), your use of Poser will be temporarily limited, and permanently cut off in the long term. Please God let this be a hoax or a joke. What happens if the user hasn't got internet access? Not everybody has!!!! Otherwise, Poser 5 etc can keep itself, all that silly paranoia because e.g. a few people buy a Poser and install it on two computers. Poser 4,0.3's nosing about the local net looking for duplicates was bad enough.

pasted from the Curious Labs article "And even if your computers hard drive is reformatted, this code would remain intact." Start......Shut Down......Restart in MSDOS Mode....at the prompt, type in format c: /u ....no more code that can alledgedly survive a format......rebuttal, anyone?????

Cheers, I'm worried about the sceneraio you describe as well. Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer that they didn't do this, but it seems they are. It may be a minor inconvienience to me, but I personally don't see it as a punishment.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm not saying that we should not question what is happening...we should. But let's get the facts straight and attempt to have some sort of rational discussion about this before we start calling for boycotts. I have a lot of respect for the people in this thread but I feel like there's a mob mentality developing here. Let's keep this rational folks.

JKeller, Huh? If I do a full reinstall (fdisk) how can it keep the hard drive key? I normally write zero's to the hard drive and do a clean install and I wonder how they are able to keep it without doing that. Or do I have to go begging to them each time I do an install of 2000 server. Also, I do not want Curious Labs to have any information about me. Is there anyway I can use their future prodects without being a number in their database?

Just 2 weeks ago I let CL know about a giant warez site, that has everything on there from Adobe Premier, Lightwave, Poser 4 to Partition Magic etc. Went to check to see if it was still up on seeing this post...and yes it was Leaving this big warez site up and fussing about a few people loading on two computers is "killing the kitten and letting the cat escape", as Tolkien wrote. Anyway, if someone has a desktop and a laptop, and loads on both, but only uses one at a time and doesn't let anyone else use either, is not breaking a condition about only one user per sold CD-ROM copy of Poser.

Hehehe, that's really a fair solution. Bye, bye Poser5. Sometimes people should think things to the end before making such things public. Just my opinion. Means, i love poser4 and have one more point why not to jump to PPP. SHARKEY

MartinC - thanks for a great post (and thread). JKeller - thanks for struggling to keep it rational and based in fact. All very interesting...

a_super_hero, I honestly don't know how, but as Robert Belton replied earlier in this thread, VBox is already doing this. So it is possible

Anthony, if CL found out about it 2 weeks ago, they may still be in the process of taking it down. There's no magic switch they can flip to shut a website down. And maybe they're watching that warez site to lead them to bigger fish?

And this sort of security won't stop warezing of Poser, as soon as someone makes a hacked version without the code that checks for the code number. That sort of hacking was happening even back in ancient times when DOS 5 was the latest thing for PC's :: at work I saw someone with a copy of the old Autocad for DOS hacked so it didn't need a dongle.

I buy PC #1, and load Poser on it. After a while #1 crashes or is stolen or destroyed in a fire, or merely I decide to buy a better computer, namely PC #2. I try to install Poser on #2. It refuses, and says that I already have Poser on #1. How to I convince that CL that Poser is no longer on PC #1? Or must I buy a new copy of Poser every time?

JKeller - thanks for struggling to keep it rational and based in fact. Actually... I don't know that anyone is basing anything in this thread on fact... =) Since Curious Labs has been curiously silent... I wonder what the real story is. I have emailed them this thread and asked that they have someone stop by to set the record straight. We'll see if anyone does.

ookami, re-read that same paragraph you just quoted from me. If you don't have internet access on that machine, you just call them for an unlock code.- - - - - -

Uh... no... THAT was my point exactly! Now I have to call them... joy... joy! Do I WANT to call them?! NO! Do I WANT to waste my time on hold or talking to someone... I have better things to do with my time than to sit on the phone waiting around for an unlock code for a $300 piece of software.- - - - - -

And here in England I would have to make a transAtlantic phone call, late in the evening UK time to be in California office hours. Big negatory on that.

JKeller wrote: "Anthony, if CL found out about it 2 weeks ago, they may still be in the process of taking it down. There's no magic switch they can flip to shut a website down. And maybe they're watching that warez site to lead them to bigger fish?" I'll give you another example of the response I got from CL on letting them know of the illegal use of Poser Models in the Blender file format that where available for download. The response I got "they have probably developed a pz3 import plugin". Did not even see any recognition in the reply to the fact that they where available for download! Are they still there? Yes...and I reported this months ago! As people have already mentioned, it is us honest users who get screwed in the end...even when we try to help out. Cheers

 

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Here's my two cents on cracked stuff. I have seen a version of max that has what is called a cracked dongle. Basically what it does, is fool the security program that max comes with into thinking there is a dongle on the computer. In fact, you can't even use the cracked dongle version without installing the security program (in this case, Sentinal). It is only a matter of time before something similar is found to circumvent this new way of doing things. In fact, in the end, I'd bet that legit users of PPP or Poser 5, resort to some of these methods of hacking, if only to prevent any headaches that arise from this new security. Dragontales

In fact, in the end, I'd bet that legit users of PPP or Poser 5, resort to some of these methods of hacking, if only to prevent any headaches that arise from this new security. LOL! You are probably right.

I don't know if announcing it publicly in their newsletter or discussing it with members in various threads in the forums qualifies as "curiously silent." This thread was just posted this morning, so I don't think it's a case of them avoiding the issue.

At any rate I was looking for the correct e-mail address to send this thread to earlier, thanks for doing that, ookami.

Just as an aside, does anyone remember buying 3Dexplorer with the promise that you would get lifetime free upgrades? And now Right Hemisphere owns it and NO MORE FREE UPGRADES. The promise of a company is vapor, and I am tired of promises of support. Look at MetaCreations. The bottom line is the bottom dollar, no matter how loyal you are you will still get screwed by this. Sorry, I have lost all trust in these companies. Marque

At least be fair and recognize the fact that after MC dumped Poser, it was Larry, Steve and the Poser dev gang that formed Curious Labs and they are still supporting Poser today. They have supported all the different forums around here as well as many of the independent developers. We've been loyal to them, and they've been loyal back.

At least be fair and recognize that they made a business decision. I bought the pro pack and was going to upgrade to Poser 5. Had nothing to do with loyalty to us....please..think about what you just said. They kicked the pro pack out with multiple bugs that they knew about, and they have as yet to get the bugs fixed. I can't believe you think they are loyal to us just because they sell us a product. Man did you ever buy into it. Marque

At least be fair and recognize the fact that after MC dumped Poser, it was Larry, Steve and the Poser dev gang that formed Curious Labs and they are still supporting Poser today. They have supported all the different forums around here as well as many of the independent developers. We've been loyal to them, and they've been loyal back. Until I heard about this new "copy protection" I would have agreed. Now it just feels like they were setting me up for the big fall. I've been a Poser user since it was just Poser. I've faithfully upgraded my Poser until I lost my originals... then I went out and bought a new copy. I think it's a great program. But if they are really going to try and pull this bullsht on me, they're off my Christmas card list... PERMANENTLY. Look at it this way... if I'm married, and my wife is great, and for the last few years she's been a great and supportive wife... and then you find out that she's just screwed your best friend... um... somehow, all that support she's given you doesn't mean so much. Yes... I know... EXTREME example... but HELL... I've used Poser longer than I've been married... and now the company that I've been faithfully supporting is trying to pull this sht?! I'm sorry... that doesn't scan with me.

Here's the link http://www.curiouslabs.com/labReport/features/stories/html/locksUpdaters.html Pretty much says it all. Marque

Thanks for the link Marque. You're right... I read it on their site. RENAME THIS THREAD TO: CURIOUS LABS TELLS ITS LOYAL USERS TO BEND OVER!

Actually, I just got word that the new software dongle has nothing to do with warez at all. In fact its real purpose is just to make ookami's life a living hell. Here's a list of some of the as-of-yet undocumented features in the new update:

Eye point has been fixed so Poser figures will watch ookami everywhere he goes.

New export feature to get Posette out of the ookami's machine so she can cheat on him with his best friend.

Contains a .wav copy of the erased Nixon tapes.

I automatically set to crash on anyone when they use bold and italics way too much when posting online.

I'm sorry ookami. You are completely right. This whole thing is just to screw you over. I'm sorry I didn't see that before.

Actually, I just got word that the new software dongle has nothing to do with warez at all. In fact its real purpose is just to make ookami's life a living hell. FINALLY... SOMEONE ADMITS IT!!! I KNEW IT!!! I JUST KNEW IT!!! My therapist has tried to convince me that it was all in my head... but now I can print this out and show it to him! Eye point has been fixed so Poser figures will watch ookami everywhere he goes. Huh?! They do that already!!! New export feature to get Posette out of the ookami's machine so she can cheat on him with his best friend. EX-Best friend... after that fiasco with my wife, you don't really think I'd still be friends with him?! =) Contains a .wav copy of the erased Nixon tapes. BAH! I've already got those! They're sitting right next to my newest Elvis albums... you know... the ones he recorded AFTER he was abducted by aliens! I automatically set to crash on anyone when they use bold and italics way too much when posting online. Now I know you are joking... there's not way...skljsdf .... NO CARRIER

There is something about this policy of Curious Labs that concerns me greatly. They say that piracy is a direct threat to the survival of their company, and so they must apply this security measure to all future offerings from themselves. This implies that if piracy of Poser does continue, then they will go out of business. But, going by precedent, the 'warez crackerz' will crack the protection system, and very soon. After all, they usually launch their latest 'version' of 3DStudio Max at about the same time as Discreet. The cracked version will spread like wildfire, just as widely as previous efforts. It seems inevitable that piracy of Poser will continue, and, if Curious Labs' justification for the protection system is to be believed, it also seems inevitable that they will go out of business. No Curious Labs = no functioning program. Anyone fancy spending hundreds on a drinks coaster? Of course, if this worst scenario does happen and legitimate users want to carry on benefiting from their investment, all they'll need to do is visit www.warezscum.com and download a cracked copy...

And after all this, likeliest someone will make a hacked version that doesn't need the code number, and that version will be all over all the warez sites in a fortnight, and all the nuisance made to legitimate users will have been for nothing.

So how I am missing all of the uproar and hissy fits over this. To be honest I didn't read all of the bantering and whatknot. It got tiring. You install Poser. You e-mail, snail mail, call, push a button on your internet. You get a number. Done. You get new drive, new computer, erase your drive. Repeat. Done again. Doesn't seem to be so much of a life threatening hardship to me.

Gee I don't see what the issue is here. You go out once when you install and get a verification key. 3D studio makes you call in and get a confirmation code via voice and I've seen worse than this for software. Sure it sucks but its not really CL's fault, its the hackers' fault. We're just stuck with the debris left behind by their "fuck 'em, steal it, why the hell should I care, I can steal it cause I can" attitude. These very same people ask in an earlier thread "Why is stealing so bad?" Well now you know. Should CL go out of business from lost sales? If someone can come up with a better scheme I'm sure CL would love to hear it. I'm in the software industry myself and I know how this stuff gets stolen. CL is NOT a huge company. They can't afford ripped off copies. I do think they SHOULD release the PPP patch WITHOUT copy protection. It was buggy when it went out and a patch should not force this kind of registration. Plus people can get stuff done now with P4 and PPP without the patch, especially if they can render in other packages so it makes little sense. In fact I doubt I could even find my serial number in my pile of computer crap. Now P5 I could see them doing this on. See where the chips fall. You might be surprised how painless the process is. Plus, if they lose sales, they have to correct for that or they go out of business anyway.

Hahahaha! ookami, you don't now how much happier you made me today just because you got my joke and joked back. Thanks.

Hahahaha! ookami, you don't now how much happier you made me today just because you got my joke and joked back. Thanks. Glad I could brighten your day! =)

So how I am missing all of the uproar and hissy fits over this. To be honest I didn't read all of the bantering and whatknot. It got tiring. You install Poser. You e-mail, snail mail, call, push a button on your internet. You get a number. Done. You get new drive, new computer, erase your drive. Repeat. Done again. Doesn't seem to be so much of a life threatening hardship to me. You get a new drive, new computer, erase your drive, then try to email, snail-mail, call, push a button. One of several things will happen: 1a) They give you a number without any problem. Which sort of defeats the purpose of said protection. What good is a lock if you hand out keys to everyone if they just ask? 1b) They give you a number after verifying that you aren't merely trying to get a number to install illegally on another machine, or you've stolen it. And how are they going to do this without becoming annoying to the legitimate user? 2) You can't get the number for installation because they've gone out of business and, promises to the contrary, no one is around to supply new activation codes. That's why people are upset.

When will people realize that all these anti-piracy measures are completely useless. With the exception of maybe some proprietary scheme protecting some program that warez hackers aren't interested in anyway, there is no such thing as a copy protection scheme that hasn't been cracked. If anything causes Creative Labs to go out of business, it will be all the money they spend on their futile attempts to prevent piracy. And all these warez people - they're not going to go out and buy the software just because they can't steal it (assuming it's possible to make it so) - they'll find something else to download.

So how I am missing all of the uproar and hissy fits over this. To be honest I didn't read all of the bantering and whatknot. It got tiring. You install Poser. You e-mail, snail mail, call, push a button on your internet. You get a number. Done. You get new drive, new computer, erase your drive. Repeat. Done again. Doesn't seem to be so much of a life threatening hardship to me. You get a new drive, new computer, erase your drive, then try to email, snail-mail, call, push a button. One of several things will happen: 1a) They give you a number without any problem. Which sort of defeats the purpose of said protection. What good is a lock if you hand out keys to everyone if they just ask? 1b) They give you a number after verifying that you aren't merely trying to get a number to install illegally on another machine, or you've stolen it. And how are they going to do this without becoming annoying to the legitimate user? 2) You can't get the number for installation because they've gone out of business and, promises to the contrary, no one is around to supply new activation codes. That's why people are upset.

dragon1, about an hour ago in the cubicle next to me someone has just agreed to burn several copies of a Adobe After Effects CD to give to a couple of her friends. She's not a hacker, and your probably wouldn't find her friends visiting warez sites. In fact, they may be inclined to purchase After Effects if it wasn't for this. All she has to do is write down the serial number on the CD and all they copy protection it has is "cracked." This is the type of activity (and it happens a lot) that this type of lock will prevent.

3. You try to contact them and you keep getting busy tone, or an answering machine, or a web site that is too busy to answer, and all the delays that this sort of thing is heir to. And how do they distinguish re-installing it on the same computer from installing it on another computer? ANd, if you install it on another computer, how do they know whether or not the copy on the other computer has been deleted? Then he gets a load of sorry-but from the software firm, etc, and to get away from all this hassle he gives in and resorts to a warez site even if he was very law-abiding minded before.

"1a) They give you a number without any problem. Which sort of defeats the purpose of said protection. What good is a lock if you hand out keys to everyone if they just ask?" It won't be anyone that just asks. They will knwo you are bob smith and that your serial number is 567x or whatever. "1b) They give you a number after verifying that you aren't merely trying to get a number to install illegally on another machine, or you've stolen it. And how are they going to do this without becoming annoying to the legitimate user?" As I said. A letter, etc. If you have the code you will still have the code. No biggie. "2) You can't get the number for installation because they've gone out of business and, promises to the contrary, no one is around to supply new activation codes." They are trying to impliment this so they DON'T go out of business. If I remember right it was a situation where the day after the Pro Pack was released there was over 3 times as many warez versions of the program as were actually bought. I am not sure on the exact number but it was a stupifying thing.

Well, at last i have could know the reason why CL do this, Cl want everyone get the warez copy of its progran instead the legal copy. CL want all of us go to the warez world, if not, look at this: 1. If you have a warez copy of poser 5 you will can make things with this copy without calls or headaches. 2. If you have a legal copy of Poser 5, then you will spend more time doing thing this version works than working in it. I repeat other time, for me, poser 4 is the last version of poser. Thanks CL.

---

adh3d website

Like I said. I don't see what all the fuss is over. It is basically doing what every other software company does. 1, 2, 3 done ...

This system seems fine and simple in theory, but in practice it will develop faults and snags and penalize people who don't have easy internet access and so will be least able to get a hacked verwion as warez instead. The result will be non-productive or counter-productive.

Ironically, it seems that all I have to do to precipitate a firestorm online is either be out on the road or on vacation. This time, I'm on the road in Germany, jetlagged and with limited connection times, working with our parent company to share our business plans for the future. It's hard to sort through the rhetoric and the legitimate questions in this thread, and the thread, sadly, seems to have devolved. I will start a new thread to specifically address security questions. As it is 11:30 PM here in Germany as of this writing, I'm not certain how much more time tonight I can devote to this, please accept my apologies. Sincerely, Steve Cooper President, Curious Labs

How will people get a hacked version of warez if they don't have easy internet access? It would be much easier for them to legitimately authorize their copy.

Thanks Steve ...

I agree, lets try to keep this at a rational level. Like many others, I do see a problem with the software dongal. They made a statement to the effect that hardware dongals are expensive, "Hardware dongles are very expensive, more than what it costs us to print the full Poser 4 box, manual, CDs and CD sleeve." But how much is that in real money? How expensive is expensive- like $20? like $50? I once bought a discontiuned program, I forget what it was, but it was only $10 or so, and it came with a dongal, I somehow can't belive they are all that much more expensive than $20. I wouldn't mind paying half the difference, say $10, if it came to that. What I'm saying is no dongal at all would be best, but a hardware one would be better than a software one. And on the subject of Warez, I wonder if they have anything planned to protect the sales of people like Phil C, Anton, DAZ and myself, maybe something like embedding the serial number of Poser in a CR2 the first time a new item was opened, so warez could be tracked down? It isn't just a Curious Labs problem, it is an industry wide problem.

They can't. But for the same reason they will have trouble and delays registering a legitimate copy. Someone above wrote about registering by sending CL a letter. A letter!? Snail mail!?!?!? I know all too well how long snail mail takes to get from Manchester (UK) to e.g. California and back. I fully understand and sympathize with Curious Labs's problems with warezing and such piracy and the need for the fight against warez; but there is a limit to sensible security without awakening the law of diminishing returns. It is the same with shops that double and triple check customers' identities before accepting a cheque. Please, keep the present system that Poser 4 has. Surely, if e.g. http://www.qwertyuiop.com or whatever starts offering warez, there must be some way to find where its server is physically and send the law in?

Jim Burton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And on the subject of Warez, I wonder if they have anything planned to protect the sales of people like Phil C, Anton, DAZ and myself, <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Don't forget Jim, if CL go under and there's no way of getting an activation code, your products will be just as frelled as any version of Poser after 4.03...

Software companies come and go, but the software should remain usable. This type of copy protection is a NO-WIN situation for legitimate customers. When Curious Labs dies, my software DIES. THAT, is the real heart of the problem with this form of copy protection. Sure, I may be able to use the program on my old machine. But I upgrade about every other year. Once I upgrade in order to better use the latest version of a program, if the developer of that program is no longer in business, then I'm out of the hard earned money I've spent. This is a hobbie for me. I hope to make it a career. Now that I've heard many other major software companies have this form of protection, it will make my purchase of a high-end program more difficult. Thanks for the information folks. The points of hassles with contacting CL for codes, etc, has been interesting. But this is one fact that cannot be disputed. Once CL goes bye-bye, so does their software, and I can't afford to lose that kind of money. TygerCub one less potential customer

They said the hardware dongles also represent a problem with personale and even cats. My cat might decide it is a toy. Dead program. And I remember he said that when Meta did what it did there was a ton of legitimate copies of MAZ that became useless because peopel swipped the dongles. Kind of like the Clinton people pulling the "w" of the computer when they left. Stupid but it happened.

Program protection devices are no more effective than burglar alarms or security locks. There is not one that cannot be broken; jury-rigged or otherwise overcome. Sure, you can build a lock or security system like Fort Knox that will stop most would-be-thieves. But who wants a BMW car that takes 20 minutes to get into because of all the security devices? Watch the sales of BMW's decline. Many companies whose products cost far more than Poser have invested very large amounts of money in program protection. There is not a single example of popular highly secure software in existence that was not cracked, rigged, had its execute files re-written by a patch removing the protection and time-outs, had software emulation replace its hardware dongle etc. etc. by the pirates within a month of its release. Some of the pirating has been so sophisticated that the pirates have, in some cases, re-written significant portions of the program to make it work. It must be remembered that the software crackers are not Poser or graphic artists, but are, in most cases, would-be-programmers. Their interest lies in how programs are written and protected. The harder the task the greater the challenge. Add a highly popular program like Poser to this equation and I will give 10 to 1 odds that there will be a working crack, patch or whatever within days of its release. By making it more difficult every cracking group in existence will be attracted to it and want to be the first to crack it. The only real deterrent to warez is to target the people distributing it and using it. This means active policing of the warez outlets and sites and willingness by software companies to do this and prosecute offenders. Piracy will only be reduced when there is a serious likelihood of the pirates being caught and of facing real penalties (either civil or criminal) for their transgressions. The only real deterrent is FEAR. Nothing else works. Nothing else will work. As long as the deterrent is a program protection device the pirates will smile and continue as before. In the meantime the honest customers will be put through the hoops. Yep, just like that highly secure BMW. Regards STORM

I agree with what you are saying STORM, but hackerz, crackerz and warez sites are not the only means by which software is being illegally distributed. Much of it is much more casual than that. You don't need any hacking skillz to burn a CD and write a serial number on it. Read my reply to dragon1 a little ways up in this thread.

The only real deterrent to warez is to target the people distributing it and using it Ditto. If police can track paedophilia WWW sites to their physical locations and send men in and seize their servers, as in some cases that have been on UK TV news, they can do the same with warez sites. hackerz, crackerz and warez sites are not the only means by which software is being illegally distributed ... [casual copying] ... I know, but "three sides of a polder is no use, however well built, the sea still gets in where the fourth side should be". If you stop the casual copying, fine for a few weeks, until the hacked version that doesn't need the code number gets around and all over the place on the internet, as STORM said. One example of a complicated wide-organized plan to stop illegal music copying was the system of different incompatible versions of music tapes and CD's, so that the music companies could release music at different times in different countries without backstreet copyists and smugglers spoiling it :: fin e for a while, when someone wrote a Windows program that can translate this sort ofmusic between different nation codes, and it soon got everywhere on the internet, and that was the end of that.

The first question one has to ask is if any of the people sharing and burning copies of Poser directly with each other are ever going to be real customers and purchase Poser in the first place? I suspect most of this goes on in schools and is more in the line of a demo substitute and they soon tire of the "fully working demo" and move on to other stuff or will not have the money to become real customers for some time. If this is the case then it seems a waste of time, effort and money putting real customers through all the hoops just to prevent an illegal activity that does not really affect sales in the first place. It might be an idea for software manufacturers to do some research into this before contemplating a radical departure into program protection. Warez sites are very different. Most people willing to spend many hours and days downloading a large 200 megabyte+ program are probably real potential customers and the warez from these places represents real financial loss. Just a few thoughts. Regards STORM

I suspect that a lot does happen in schools, but it also happens in many other places. I know many freelance graphic artists who's entire arsenal is made up of "borrowed" software. If these items were copy protected, they certainly would be customers...or loose many tools they use to do their job. But they wouldn't go to a warez board, cuz that's illegal.

Everyone take a deep breath and repeat after me... "Insufficient data at this time for final analysis." Why don't we wait a bit and see what is finally offered? You may find that all (or almost all) our concerns have been considered and addressed. Or you may find that it is as bad as you seem to want to believe, in which case CL's sales will indeed plummet and they will remove the protection aspects shortly after and you can get it then.... Scarab<-(one thing my years have taught me is that panic never helped dick....)

Yes, A_Super_Hero, it can be done! They just read the ID number of your computor's CPU, so your fdisk session has no impact. Of course a lot of legitimate users will rip a warez copy...you know... just in case... And once you've got it - why bother to call CL or visit their site? There's a lot of softtalk from the CL defenders but it's the same words we have heard from Microsoft all these years and they are still mastering your computor life! I don't think software companies are aware of how often we common users are reistalling our operating systems and programs or formatting our hard drives. I will never ever purchase WindowsXP, 'cause I don't want Microsoft snooping around inside my computor and I certainly have no intention to get in touch with them every time I'd like to rearrange my hard drives. And for the same reason Poser 4 will be the end of the road (and I am a legal owner of every version!). - Zoot

Storm- Are you saying that you would rather have "need the CD in the drive" protection? I sort of have a problem with that, my last couple of computers have had CD drives that make a horable racket at times, as they wind up to 40X or so. But I do very much agree with "The first question one has to ask is if any of the people sharing and burning copies of Poser directly with each other are ever going to be real customers and purchase Poser in the first place?" Exactly- warez dosen't mean lost sales in I'd guess 90% of the cases, at the very least- they would never buy the software anyway. The very, very best plan would be to make Poser a good value for the money- a worthwhile improvement over Poser 4, with a really good manual (which the warez guys wouldn't get). Also they really aught to do special offers for upgrades to regestered versions - Poser 4 only cost me $100, if I recall, because I had Poser 2 (I skipped 3), this leaves the warez kiddies out in the cold. However, the industry trend seems to be do new versions with minimal improvements (Microshaft is a prime example, Adobe is doing pretty well along this line too) at maximum prices - Adobe has, for example, in effect dropped the upgrade academic pricing, it cost the same as a new copy.

BTW, what's the record for the most number of replies to a thread on this board?

I agree with Scarab. I am an CL employee, and I can tell you all, please...just wait and see what happens. Do some research and get the facts straight. I have been reading these posts all day long, and even though Steve Cooper & Larry Weinberg are out of the country, they are reading your posts as well. If you have a question to ask, Steve Cooper is listening and will answer. Just read his thread that he posted earlier, and be patient...it's almost 2 am in Germany so he won't be replying until tomorrow. And please don't dump us in the same category as MetaCreations. We are a small, humble company who really do care about their users. Please be patient with us. Karen Carpenter Editor, Curious Lab Report

Definitely agree on the 'warez use doesn't automatically equal lost sales' argument. Are they blasting off a twelve bore to swat a fly? I think what they should do is make life so good for registered users of Poser that anyone using a warezed copy is missing out on too much. Like a user community behind locked doors - can't get in without a legit registration number. MetaCreations had something like this with their 'BryceTalk' feature of Bryce4. BryceTalk wasn't interesting enough in and of itself, but the concept was there. If that place was like the best of all the online sites, just about everyone actively using Poser would want to be there.

I hope it isn't vbox they are planning on incorporating. I d/l'd a trial version of something from Symantec. I was worried about a virus, I think. They use vbox to somehow meter your trial. This program took over. Made my entire windows install unstable. Everytime I did a "file open" from any application, not just within the Symantec one, vbox would be called. Often it gave me the cryptic error "vbox injection error." No idea of when else this app was called or how this effected overall performance, but it must (I don't even run screensavers on my graphics machine). Took me months (finally with help on Experts Exchange--only question I ever needed to ask there) to trace this to the uninstalled Symantec app. Having gone through the registry and my hard disks for every ref to vbox, I finally stopped getting regular crashes. I still don't trust my windows install, and have been putting off the usual 2-3 days of reformat-reinstall on my work critical machine. I also no longer use the live update feature in Winfax, which I own, for fear that it reinstalls vbox. Never again will install something I suspect uses vbox. Never again will I buy Symantec, after buying their products for (10?) years for myself and corporations. I don't trust companies that treat the disease by killing the patient. I don't trust spyware. I don't trust people who don't trust me. CL will ensure my further graduation to Max/Character Studio, or a similar solution, if they are going to include something vbox like. Already they have ensured I will not be an early adopter. I'll be waiting to see what happens.

Honest users ability to use Poser will never be "cut off" unless A) Curious Labs goes out of business AND B) The hard drive you install it all becomes completely un-usable.<<< Neither event is impossible. Therefore, the minute such "security" procedures are instituted, my Poser days are done.

Folks here's the link to Steve Cooper's article on this in the CL Newsletter. This is not a big secret, and yes it is going to happen. But like Robert Belton said, it's nothing to get paranoid about.<<< Oh, I'm not paranoid. I'm p***ed. >>>Darth, considering how many warez copies were distributed in the first week of Pro Pack's release, it seems that some procedure is neccessary.<<< Agreed. But not one that will be such an inconvenience and potential disaster for legal users. And, having worked with a program that uses a similar system, it IS a potential disaster. No, I think CL just used up all the good PR it had built since taking Poser. And if I were the users of PPP, I'd be really peeved that to get a version that will actually work properly you have to sign your cyber-soul over via this slave system.

adh3d, locks keep honest people honest. This probably won't stop or slow down your hard core hackers and folks who get all their software from warez sites,...<<< Exactly. But what it will do is cause aggravation and inconvenience for the overwhelming majority of CL's customers who are honest. It is stupid PR policy. It is stupid security policy. >>>...but what it will do is stop people who don't realize they are doing anything wrong<<< No, what it will do is cost CL customers. I already use a program that utilizes a similar program. I use it because I am forced to by some of my clients. That is not the case with Poser. I have a choice. My choice will be no.

As will mine. Sorry CL, I'm already getting screwed over by 3 companies, I am NOT going to add you to the list. And I am not a new user, I STILL have my poser version 1.0. Marque

It has pretty much served it's usefullness here and there is a useful thread above that isn't speculation, hearsay and complaining. Thanks.

Karen, On the CL website it says that this is the way it's going to be. Why do you come in and say let's wait and see what happens? That's crap. It has been decided and it's a safe bet the company that will be taking care of it has a contract in their hands. I don't think anything that is said here is going to change a thing. And they are banking on the fact that they have ads in most of the graphics magazines that I read and that they will get a new customer base. Time to break out my Lightwave manuals and start learning in earnest. Wake up and smell the coffee people, THEY DON'T CARE. I brought this question up when they had him on the Spotlight thing on the front page of this site...and I don't believe I got an answer then either. I specifically asked about this type of copy protection. I wouldn't be so concerned if I wasn't watching companies go belly-up right and left. Marque

One enterprising young hacker actually made a legitimate living cracking the hardware dongle on 3ds Max, selling a software "patch" (read crack) to registered Max users who lost or had broken dongles, and to Mac users, since some macintosh parallel ports were incompatible with the dongle and the Sentinel drivers used. While the max programmers and the Sentinel people were sitting their with their ....errrrr ...."thought" in their hand, he sold his cracks to users who could prove to his satisfaction they had legitimate copies and complaints. I forget who he was, but I found him doing a simple search looking for some information on max. All i could think of at the time was how upset I would personally be if I or my business (if I owned one S) shelled out 3,500 US dollars and the security screwed me over and i had to pay another 500 bucks to make it work.

"The only downside I can see, and this has been pointed out by some observant Poser users, is that should we go out of business, there will be a need to maintain the server authorization so users who need to move the app onto a new system or a new hard drive can do so. Our solution? Well do what ever we can to ensure that Curious Labs is around for a very long time, preventing this scenario from ever occurring. As long as were smart about choosing features, partners, and projects, and make fewer mistakes than wise moves, well survive." Bottom line is simple - If CL goes down, then all your investment in Poser beyond 4.03 goes with them. That is NOT acceptable. Do you really want to see thousands of dollars of YOUR investment lost if CL goes down? And if this decision is an indication of decisions to follow, IMHO, CL will go down. I do not believe they are being "smart" in this decision, so Steve's assurance that as long as they are smart about "... choosing features, partners, and projects, and make fewer mistakes than wise moves, we'll survive." reads as a giant warning sign of the future. Now, there are those within this thread that will call me paranoid or will allege that I am acting before "...getting all the facts...," but with this decision CL has lost me as a customer. Poser 5 will not join Poser 1, Poser 3 and Poser 4. They've made their decision. I've made mine.

If you read the post above there will be an update that will make sure that you don't need them in that eventuality. That is why I said get all the facts.

It has pretty much served it's usefullness here and there is a useful thread above that isn't speculation, hearsay and complaining. Thanks.<<< In your opinion. This thread is DIRECTLY related to Poser and the thousands of dollars some of us have invested in it. Just because the apparent majority view and the concerns of the majority may not be in agreement with you does not mean it should simply be shunted aside for the PR convenience of CL and its unquestioning worshippers... IMHO.

If you read the post above there will be an update that will make sure that you don't need them in that eventuality. That is why I said get all the facts.<<< And such a "post" exists nowhere in the CL official release. In fact, Steve's statement seems pretty clear that they realize the possible disaster that would occur with a CL failure. So, until I see it on CL's website, it is NOT a fact.

CL will ensure my further graduation to Max/Character Studio, or a similar solution, if they are going to include something vbox like. Already they have ensured I will not be an early adopter. I'll be waiting to see what happens. FWIW, Max 4.0 and Character Studio 3 also incorporate a "software lock" in lieu of the hardware lock that was used in Max 3 and earlier. Looks as though software locks are the wave of the future. Denise

True .. it is my opinion but it is also riling people up about things that are explained in sucsinct terms elsewhere and that you fail to mention. Such as the update nuking the need for the contact upon the collapse of Curious Labs. I am not an unquestioning worshiper but I also like to give someone the option to explain themselves as Curious Labs is trying to do above without statements like "it will be useless." I am also tired or trying to read past this thread. What is so problematic about the approach? You e-mail, get a number, done. It doesn't really seem like some earth shattering event. If someone would like to start a thread numbered and ordered in C&D about what they find so awful about registering the software I would be happy to respond there.

That is because companies don't assume the worst and don't give pessimistic press releases. I mean you will never a standard press releasse from Coke staying 'In case we go under." You won't find that on Max or any other program website either.

True .. it is my opinion but it is also riling people up about things that are explained in sucsinct terms elsewhere and that you fail to mention. Such as the update nuking the need for the contact upon the collapse of Curious Labs.<<< Please show me the OFFICIAL, FACTUAL statement from CL that an update would be made available in the event of their demise that would "nuke" the security system? I saw no such statement from Steve at the CL site. If CL is going under, do you really think they will have the time or resources to impliment such a scheme? If you do, let us talk real estate. And if a simple patch is going to "nuke" the security system, then how long will it be before one of the "warez-kiddies" has one floating throughout cyber-space? Ghost, I'm sorry if I am coming across as the frothing cyber-dog (German Shephard variety), but I think you belittle what many feel are very legitimate concerns and what many of us see as a complete and total betrayal.

That is because companies don't assume the worst and don't give pessimistic press releases. I mean you will never a standard press releasse from Coke staying 'In case we go under."<<< Then any statement made "off the record" or "unofficially" here regarding a "patch" to "nuke" the security system isn't worth the paper it is printed on. ;-)

I understand .. but to attack a program that has always shown good faith for a simple security procedure that most other companies have something similar to seems a bit tedious. If you look at the first question above there is a statement from Steve saying that. I just know that the entire curious labs tema worked really hard to keep patches coming when they were going under at Meta and I would liek to give them a little benefit of the doubt. A lot of the statements are simply hearsay. People aren't reading the facts or even the notices. And like I said. No software would put an official notice of "in case we go under" or "in case we are nuked." You say "And if a simple patch is going to "nuke" the security system, then how long will it be before one of the "warez-kiddies" has one floating throughout cyber-space?" but that doesn't stop other companies from implimenting security proceedures, dongles, etc.

Hello Metacreations is still in business but their softwares are spreaded in many businesses. I bought all softwares from Metacreations but who really support them right now? WHo will support them in one year? it is the same thing with MIMIC, if my CD get scratched and LypSync does not exist anymore....I have to sau good bye to my software.

I understand .. but to attack a program that has always shown good faith for a simple security procedure that most other companies have something similar to seems a bit tedious.<<< Ghost, one final comment and then I'll let it rest before we get tired of each other. ;-) I don't think this is a "... simple security procedure..." At least not for those who, like me, are constantly upgrading their system(s). Since August of last year, I have went through four system upgrades. I am preparing for a fifth. That makes the type of security system CL is going to implement far from simple for me. In fact, it makes it an outright nuisance. And what of those times when the CL server is down? (Yes, believe it or not, the CL server has been down.) They have stated that it is "never" down for several days at a time. Well, @home basically said the same thing to me about their reliability, but for the past 5 days use of the system from where I live has been patchy at best. So, such promises are just air in the atmosphere to me. As is the promise of a "patch" or "update" to render the security system useless if CL goes down. >>>You say "And if a simple patch is going to "nuke" the security system, then how long will it be before one of the "warez-kiddies" has one floating throughout cyber-space?" but that doesn't stop other companies from implimenting security proceedures, dongles, etc.<<< True. But I never said that CL was the only one wasting their time and customer good-faith on such useless procedures.

dmtyler wrote: FWIW, Max 4.0 and Character Studio 3 also incorporate a "software lock" in lieu of the hardware lock that was used in Max 3 and earlier. Looks as though software locks are the wave of the future. That could be why I haven't heard of FWIW etc. Whatever the initials "FWIW" stand for. It seems that this sort of software lock is merely a fashion which is going round, and CL should resist the temptation to follow the herd. Software locks might be semi-OK for very expensive work-type packages of which not many are bought and all their users are office businesses and are on the internet. But not for Poser. It is easy for people who are on the internet to forget that not everybody is, same as people in England suffer nuisance and inconvenience from the common planners' delusion that everybody has a car. What is someone without a WWW link to do, when he buys a package, say Qwerty? He phones Zxcvbnm Ltd/Inc/Gmbh who wrote it. That from some countries is slow and expensive and the phone line is bad. He gets "call later" and answering machines and checkups and busy tone etc. He writes a letter in the snail mail and after a fortnight he hasn't got an answer, due to distance and overseas-ness or Zxcvbnm's office being busy. Zxcvbnm wants this and that as checkup on his bona-fides. In the end he feels himself forced to get a warez copy via a friend of his who is on the internet. And that warez copy is the hacked version without the software lock. In comes the "law of diminishing returns", same as with book libraries: The library puts in a photocopy machine so that people won't have to steal books or razor pages out of books. OK for a while. Then someone in charge cets authority-minded and puts more and more checkups and hassle round the photocopier to stop illegal copying, until it gets to be so much hassle that people go back to stealing books and razoring pages out of books. I am sorry to take up so much space here. I admore CL for all their work writing such a useful package as Poser, but PLEASE forget this fancy new idea about a software lock and keep the present registration system. And note Snazzy's experience with Vbox (see message 104).

---

And it could be that sometimes, someone finds package Qwerty as warez, gets it because it is cheap and he didn't feel interested enough at hhe time to fork out for a legitimate copy, finds it useful, but not as useful as it could be because he hasn't got its manual, so he buys the next edition of Qwerty legitimately despite the extra cost.

Anthony- FWIW= for what it is worth; as in BTW= by the way; or in LOL= laughing out loud (wish I were). Sadly, I have a very full day today, and I need to let this one go. Thank you to those who have expressed giving us a chance to prove what we are doing, and to our critics, it's been a very informative excercise; I have faith that we will be able to put your fears to rest. The updater will fix Pro Pack bugs, offer MAX 4 plug-in support, and be available before this thread has cooled down. And it will have interlock protection. Sincerely, Steve Cooper

Hmmmm ,all to big brother for me,and the point that servers arent down for days at a time ! Crap! Mine has gone out for a week!I dont register ANYTHING cause I figue I paid for itand that is the end of the story.I didnt even register Windows cause I dont trust multinationals to keep there eyes out of my business!

Like I said before...no matter how we feel about it it was probably in place long before anything was said. Now matter what any of the loyal users of Poser say..suggest..or gripe about we will never have a say in what they feel makes the money. Ghost talks about giving them a chance to come in a explain things. Well as you can see it's been explained in the note above. Basically saying we don't really care about what the users think we will do as we please. If you don't want to update fine, there are others who will. Where's all this loyalty to the users Ghost? Marque

A related matter: when I switch my laptop on, sometimes it asks me if I want to auto-register its Poser 4. Why? Like many people, it is on a dialup line and it doesn't automatically login to the net at boot up, but I log in after that for as long as I need to read my mail and messages, and then log out, to save my phone bill and in case anyone was wanting to phone me.

Marque .. I don't get that from the post above. As I said, I just don't see the huge hardship on sending a 30 second e-mail. Even if you get a new computer every 2 months it isn't that much of a problem. Don't see a completely new computer coming that often for most people but that is all it takes. I don't have internet on my Poser computer. Even if I did I would probably use the e-mail option anyway. To be honest I haven't registered some of my software but I see the e-mail to be a minor thing. I am tired of this ... Done with the forum for a few days until this junk blows over.

I have already dealt with this with two other companies, Right Hemisphere...who were very nice but it still took multiple emails and phone calls to get it straightened out, and Creature Creator..and anyone who has worked with them can tell you what a nightmare it is. I have no problem with CL implementing their protection, and I will do the free update, but unless version 5 is so inexpensive that I can't resist I won't be buying it. I am just not willing to take that chance. At least with version 4.0 I know that if they go belly up I will still be able to use the program, and even with the Pro Pack. I just won't be locking myself in to a version that I may not be able to use. Got nothing against CL. Just tired of being the one inconvenienced by thieves. Marque

If CL gets two or more emailed or automatic or phone or snail-mail requests from Mr.X to register the same copy of Poser 5 or whatever, on two different computers (#1 and #2), how will CL or its software distinguish between these cases?:- (0) Mr.X has two computers, perhaps a desktop and a laptop, and he will only use one at a time, and won't let anyone else use either, so the "only one user" rule is satisfied. (1) Ditto, but he plans to let different people use the multiple installations at the same time. (2) Mr.X has scrapped #1 and bought #2. (3) #2 is #1 with a new hard-drive. (4) The duplicate installations are actually off different CD-ROM's, and one or both of them is a warez or other breach or copyright.

Yeah, Anthony, you are asking the right questions and you have done so a couple of times - but did you get a reply? Nope! Onr thing is clear - I have paid a lot of money for all my software but no one - and I mean no one - puts a stamp on my hard drive! Period & dot! - Zoot

Hey has any one ever thought that some users dont even have access to the net? its easy for you in the USA ,net connection here is not cheap!I battle to afford a dial up with limited hours. Phone thru for a code? oh yea on international rates! "We will put you on hold for a moment" HA!

Ditto. Installing or re-installing Poser gets more and more complicated, and more complications mean more that can go wrong, as I know from years of scuba diving and writing computer programs. Busy tone, lines down, sorry he's ill / on holiday / not in yet / in conference / etc, faint or noisy lines so I can't hear the code number as it is read out to me, the person reading the number out to me has a heavy foreign accent or a mouth full of chewing gum, having to ferret through a maze of recorded voices reciting lists of numbers telling me what to press for this and that option, the caller wanting the code does not know English well, etc etc etc. And if the caller is in about the same time zone as CL, perhaps he can't get to a phone during CL office hours due to his work. Please God spare us from that hassle. We seem to have here yet another case of a man thinking that everybody is as conveniently placed as he is, "delusion of standardness", e.g.:- Everybody is on the internet. Everybody has a car. Everybody lives in the USA. In England, everybody lives in the south. Everybody has easy access to a software shop that has everything on the shelf or can be got in 2 days. Everybody has a credit card. (I have never had one.) Everybody has a telephone. At work I was put on a duty of going round my department's computers checking them for ergonomics, and whoever made the form out thought that all PC's were on an office desk with an angle lamp and a rotating chair! :-) I found that more than half were on lab benches with lab stools, one in a fume cupboard, one in a steel cupboard that he had to open to use it, one on a trolley, two or more in a clusters linked to lab equipment, variations ad infinitum and never mind some office man's tidy efficient official ideas of standardness. I wonder how many people get software as warez because they can't find anywhere they can buy the software legitimately? At a nearby big software shop I have been told "Sorry, we haven't got it in, and we don't order things for people.". My experiences with buying Bryce and Poser are:- Bryce 3: a shop had it in. Poser 3: I ordered it from a shop in Westhoughton (Lancs,UK) and I had to wait while they got it in. Bryce 4 & Poser 4: I asked on Renderosity who was selling them legitimately, and I ordered them via the snail mail. In my case, I don't have to resort to warez, because often when I want something I write it for myself with my good old faithful Borland C++ 4.52 compiler.