I've run into more than one person that has somehow gotten the impression that Poser renders are a simple matter of slapping models into a window and pushing a button, and have been told outright recently that programs using premade models do not involve any artistic creation. It got my liver in a quiver, naturally, but I calmly asked this person to do some research on the program before making such statements. That was as much as I could manage at the time before my twitchy fingers started typing things that might not have been so calm.

How would you handle such a situation--what would you tell the person to look at, where would you link them, what would you describe to (hopefully gently) persuade someone that art made with Poser is, indeed, valid art and not "screen shots" or something equally insulting? I'm trying so very hard to be educational and civil, and I'd appreciate input from others.

 I think it's really a prejudice sort of thing, really...   If someone has that thought in their head, it will probably stay there.

There are many definitions of art, everybody has their own.  Many people only think that paintings and/or sculpture counts as art.  That means that metal smithing, textiles, even music are off the list.

I think what it really comes down to...  Does the work move you?  Does it make you feel something?    "You" in this case really has to be the artist, because it's the artist's expression, not how it's interpreted that matters.  (On the other hand, you could make a render that you feel is just an exercise, while it may really strike a chord with someone else...)

With that said, of course, I can say that not every render I've made would I call artistic.  Maybe a couple of them though...

To be honest I would not get into it. Anyone who knows enough about CGI will understand what is involved. There are folks who will welcome a constructive dialog about the subject but they are rare.

For the rest, just walk away, it is not worth the blood pressure.

Frankly, I feel it's pointless to argue with someone who thinks that way. I guess their artwork entails finding minerals, digging them up, mixing their own paints and weaving their own canvas ;o). But because art is such a subjective thing, the value is definitely with the person viewing it. For instance, I think Dali's stuff is pure crap, but obviously everyone doesn't think that way...lol.
Laurie

Quote - To be honest I would not get into it. Anyone who knows enough about CGI will understand what is involved. There are folks who will welcome a constructive dialog about the subject but they are rare.

For the rest, just walk away, it is not worth the blood pressure.

I agree completely with Phil.

Life is too short to worry about the critics ... unless your income depends on it. :lol:

Then, maybe you should consider a different line of endeavor if it might affect your health.

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Its a common enough question.

You can go through the laundry list.
Choice of model, adjusting morphs, skin textures, makeup, clothing, cloth textures, pose, lighting, composition, background and prop choice, render settings, postwork.  

I sometimes pointed out that a photographer actually makes less choices than a poser srtist does, because he may go out to a garden , and simply pick a view that looks nice. A poser person has to make the garden.

Theres a lot of debate if CGI is an art or a craft.

LOL. The best revenge on critics is to cash in from their ignorance at poser generated art.

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

they're probably jealous because their package has a comma in the price, but they can't do as well...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

This is going to become a long thread as it is a favorite topic here.

I think it's all well and good to discuss tools and medium as an aspect of what constitutes art, but this is not apropos the central issue for other CG artists. They already accept that digital images created by using software involving meshes, textures, shaders, and lighting objects are legit. But only if you actually made them, and only if they don't look like crap.

The important aspect of this is effort and quality, taken together.

If you produce a great-looking image by loading state-of-the-art meshes, lights, shaders, and poses, you are an artist, but you are not a CG artist. See the difference? When you do that, you're not doing what CG artists do. It is art, though. But it's not very different from cutting out some pictures and making a collage. The "collage" community may think it is interesting, but the oil-painting community will not even want to talk to you, and will not let you call yourself a painter.

Conversely, if you make great effort to produce your own lights, shaders, meshes, poses, but the result looks like what it is - the klunky efforts of a noob, then you will not be accepted as a CG artist, either.

The CG art community is driven by and respects most the ability to execute the creative vision of the art director, even when the components necessary to do so don't exist yet, i.e. cannot be bought and added to your library. Even if you are both director and CG artist/executor, if your vision is limited to what you can assemble, then you are not a CG artist. You are something else, which has a name. You are a Poser.

It's that simple.

Please don't flame me. I'm not saying I agree with this point of view. I'm just trying to explain it because I know a lot of Poser users have no clue why the CG community has a problem with Poser.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

My response to such a person would be "Yes, you're right."  That should end the pointless-argument-to-be there and... so what if one person thinks you're not creating art? It's just one person. It's not you.

It's always hard to take stage after BB, but I think Poser is a unique collaboration of
imagination between creators and artists.  I love working -- playing really for me --
with the content others create.  I would never imagine so much of this stuff, but
then I might use it in a unique, but simple way the creator never imagined and
it just fuels the creative process.  Hopefully at least.  For me I know it does.  :)

I think art is the application of creativity and imagination.

And as long as you're having fun ... FTW.  ;)

Right, zigzag, art is the creative use of your imagination to make something that blah blah.

Imagine that you bought some real Barbie and Ken dolls, and you bought some period clothes for them, and you arranged them to look like a scene from Gone With the Wind. You didn't do anything like cut their heads off, or spill sheep urine on them, or spray paint them - you just set them up.

How many art galleries will show that? Zero. So while it is art, it is not gallery worthy art. How about in your neighborhood - would you display this for your neighbor? Probably not. How about for your Mom - would your Mom look at it? Yup. But that doesn't make it art.

Now do the same, but digitally. Still not gallery worthy is it? Same story.

Now go show your image to a true CG artist, perhaps one who actually WROTE HIS OWN PROGRAM as well as the content. You're not even on the same planet.

So when Poser users point to Avatar and stuff and say we're doing the same kind of art, you get LOL.

When people say something is or isn't "art" they do not mean that is is or isn't a depiction of some emotion or event. They mean it has to show some creativity that resulted in some extraordinary effort that most of the population could not reproduce. Argue all you want about the definition of art if you like. The reality is that most people demand some serious effort and skill involved before they call it art.

That's why some "artists" are not accepted as artists. For example, when somebody finds some old broken cans and bottles and glues them together - no matter how much they thought about what they were doing, no matter how long it took, the reality is an 8-year old could do just as well with no planning. It is not art in the popular sense.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

the problem is that a lot of poser users dont care what they render. so a lot of renders suck. and now a Maya user see's only bad renders. so he has a negative experience with the word '' poser''.

so of course you are not a a good artist if you realese every bad render with rendertime of 20 seconds. i dont care if you dont want shadows,specular,hair,.....
if it looks like a videogame from the 70's and if the lighting is pathetic then its not good.

the problem is that a lot of artist dont know about the renders from people like Carodan. if everyone would do renders like Carodan then noone would say anythign bad about Poser.
www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php
www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php
look the camera angles. look at the light positon. look at the composition. he is an artist. and the reason it looks so good is because he is a good painter. the guy has experience with art.

art is not about realism.i am not complaining about the lack of shadows because it doesnt look realistic. its because it 100% sucks. even a digital painter that is doing comics will draw shadows.

in my honest opinion

I really would, BB.  I'm proud of what I do with Poser.  God knows I'm still relatively
inexperienced and can't match up to the expert users, but I do believe it's a
unique collaboration of imagination which produces valid, beautiful images.  Not
to mention there's no way in the world I'd ever find willing models to work with me
IRL for say photo sessions as I do my best to try to produce realistic images.  Can
I get better?  Sure.  Of course.  And I will.

When a 5-year old sings the ABC song, is that art? Because music is art, right? Not in my opinion. Not all music is art.

Not all paintings are art.

Not all digital images are art.

Please learn the difference between these two statements.

Most Poser images are not art.

All Poser images are not art.

One of these is true, the other is false.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Carodan's images are art.

Do you know why?

1) They create a strong emotion or reaction in the viewer.

2) The reaction is strongly positive. (Some negative images are art, but most are not. Most are just junk.)

3) Even I, an expert with the same tools he uses, cannot reproduce what he did. Yet he is not an expert with these tools.

No question - Carodan is an artist.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

its true that you get an emotion from hes render.

I'd ask him to define his terms. That should take a while. Then I'd leave, because he's obviously a snob, and his opinion is the only one that matters (to him).

Some of the most beautiful work I've seen is done as ice sculpture for the Ice Hotel in Sweden, and Native American sand painting. Very simple mediums, with stunning results. It's not the brush, it's the skill and vision that guide it.

Absolutely nothing!

Art is a very subjective thing.  What is art to one person, isn't necessarily art to another person.

You aren't going to change their opinion, so why even bother trying, or even worrying about what they think? You don't need to defend your choice of materials/programs to produce what you consider to be art.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Well, I asked da NaySayGuy what he thought "art" was and ...
(after doing some extensive research)
.... he gave me the following for your viewing pleasure ... or not ... your choice. :lol:

• the (Poser) products of human creativity; works of art collectively; "an art exhibition"; "a fine collection of art"

• the creation of beautiful or significant things; "art does not need to be innovative to be good"; "I was never any good at art"; "he said that architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully"

• a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art"

• artwork: photographs or other visual representations in a printed publication; "the publisher was responsible for all the artwork in the book"

• ‘Art’ is a French language play by Yasmina Reza that premiered on 28 October 1994 at Comédie des Champs-Élysées in Paris. ...

• The Art(e) of Romance is the fifth studio album of Argentinan melodic hardcore band Fun People, issued by Ugly Records in April 1999.

• Art is a male personal name, both in its own right and as a diminutive form of the common name Arthur.

• ART is a proprietary image file format used mostly by the America Online (AOL) client software. The ART format (file extension ".art") holds a single still image that has been highly compressed. ...

• ...  Art is the third album from the Australian rock band, Regurgitator, released in 1999.

• Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging (Poser) elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, sculpture, and paintings. ...

• See also: Bart, Cart, Dart, Fart, Hart, Kart, Mart, Part, Tart, Uart*, Wart,

NaySay thought you might like to know the above ... ;=]

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

*Universal Asynchronous Receiver Transmitter (an IC, e.g., an integrated circuit)

P.S. I think da NaySayGuy stole (borrowed?) all of the above from the web.

P.P.S. In case you were wondering ...
"Plagiarism" is when you steal text from someone ... :blink:
"Research" is when you "steal" text from multiple sources. :biggrin:

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Quote - Carodan's images are art. ...

... No question - Carodan is an artist.

BTW - I agree with BB totally.

If one did not know that many of the images in his gallery were created using Poser, they could easily be mistaken for photographs. (IMVHO).

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Wow long thread (I didn't read it :) But I want to chime in. Based on my mood I will do one of the following:

1. Fall to the ground with my eyes rolling into the back of my head, this got me through grammar school.

2. Pull out a laptop and push a button and create a pre-formulated answer right there on the spot.

3. Tell them to do things that involve eating certain bodily cast off, or doing thing to themselves that is probably impossible.

I all seriousness I compare painting a room with a roller in twenty minutes or painting a mural with a smaller brush that might take days or weeks. In Poser there is a big grey area between pushing a button and using a lot of time, talent, experience and sometimes luck to create a render. At what point does it become art? At what point is it just pushing a button. Does an artist looking at a model constitute cheating like they are tracing? How can you call impressionism art then? What about sculpture using existing objects? So photography isn't an art because someone loaded a figure (a model) or prop (you get it) and pushed a button?

While they are pondering all this I THEN drop to the floor and let my eyes roll back into my head.

LukeA

My latest novel

I really wouldnt argue about it ... everyone has their own opinion about what "art" is.

its a waste of energy and breath ......

Sit them in front of the films UP or Avatar & ask them if they think they are art, if they say no just walk away laughing.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

its not so simple. if a man uses hes urine to writte hes name in the snow is that art?

just having M4 standing on grass with one infinite light is not art. its needs to be somehow special.

Quote - Sit them in front of the films UP or Avatar & ask them if they think they are art, if they say no just walk away laughing.

the lighting in the movie UP is to me lighting perfection .

i bow down to the lighters from Pixar.

Pixar are truly dedicated to their art, they actually flew down to South America to visit & climb the real mountains they based the mountains in the film on.

science4grownups.com/archives/2009/05/29/general/the-real-world-behind-ups-paradise-falls-530

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

 Because I can draw and I can paint I was employed by my local council for a number of years as an artiist. Sadly, though, I have very little art in me. Poser,and other cgi programmes can liberate the artistist in people who do not have the draghtmanship of others Art and the ability to draw are just not the same thing I doubr Rembrant and the pre-raphellite brotherrhood would have shunned cgi

I do very much appreciate all the responses this thread has gathered. I think in this case I am simply going to have to write it off. The issue is, unfortunately, whether or not I have permission to continue to post my work in a gallery that the site owner had no trouble with letting me post in a couple of years ago, but when she found out that I don't actually model my own figures, that was the issue. Nevermind making my own textures and shaders and painting a lot of details by hand...nevermind creating my own morphs with magnets and deformers...nevermind creating my own lighting, backgrounds, doing my own postwork, etc.  All that matters to her is that I don't create my own meshes, so...she can (insert really crude suggestion about impossible physical acts here). 

I do find it interesting that this question brought up arguments between Poser and users of other CG programming, while I was thinking originally that my own question was based upon this person's simple dislike of anything that isn't hand-drawn lines on paper or in a painting program with mouse or tablet. Lots to think about there as far as how far one must customize to legitimize. A'course, when it comes to arguments between programmers and Poser users I tend to just think some people are snobs and leave it at that, because I've been to fairs where the ladies that make everything from scratch are very kind and gracious to the ones that use mixes, so I've seen pleasant manners demonstrated without the effort causing any harm to either party. ;D

"Now go show your image to a true CG artist, perhaps one who actually WROTE HIS OWN PROGRAM as well as the content. You're not even on the same planet."

What about using stock figures, but that I've previously remapped myself, so as to take different textures from that that they were originally intended.  Do renders made from these count as original content and art in any way?
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

i think texturing a figure is not art .

maybe if its stylized

Quote - ...  All that matters to her is that I don't create my own meshes, so...she can (insert really crude suggestion about impossible physical acts here).  ...

re:"(insert really crude suggestion about impossible physical acts here)" ROTFLMAO :lol:*
Done there, been that. :lol:

*- - - - - -

 * May I suggest that you ...

1. Download a (FREE) copy of Wings3D *(<-click link)... it's loads of fun to use !
2. Play with it for a minute or two ...and then ...
   3a. Make a couple of (VERY simple- 10-15 polygons will do nicely) meshes ...

You can quit at this point because you have made a couple of your own "meshes!"

What follows is optional ...

3b. Save you "mesh(es)"  ... (use the Wavefront OBJect format - it works quite well ... ;=] )

4. Import your mesh(es) into Poser ...
5. Go into the Setup Room to create some bones for your mesh ...
6. Save your new figure(s) in the Figures Library ...
   7 Make a couple of (VERY quick) renders with your "new" figures ...

Now when someone says ... "Do you make your own figures?" ...
You may proudly answer ...

"Why yes, yes I do, doesn't everyone?" :biggrin:

Case closed.**

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Quote - i think texturing a figure is not art .

maybe if its stylized

Sorry to disagree but ... it is an art form unto itself ...

Right dph? :biggrin:

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

It's a very subjective subject.

You can create art with Poser, but very few do.
Is it CG? No.
But at the same time, I have seen Maya student showreels... which had Victoria in them.
Turbosquid thrives on the high end content and people obviously buy it, so not everyone models everything from scratch.
Comparing Poser with Avatar is silly. That's a whole other level and should get you laughed at.
However...
Avatar was not made by a single person, who modeled the figure, textured it, animated it, lit it and integrated it.
No. That was done by a team of people, with specialized modellers, texturers, animators and so forth.
So most CG people can't point to Avatar and say "I do stuff like that" either.
I've seen superb 3D Art done in Poser.
I've seen superb 3D Art done in all manner of high end programs.
I've also seen the crap people produce, no matter what application they use.
Just because someone uses a high end application with several 0's behind the first number, doesn't mean they automatically produce top notch stuff.
And just because someone uses a low end app doesn't mean they can't produce high end imagery.

Whenever someone says "Poser is crap, you should use 3D Max" or some such thing, I always say "It doesn't matter what tool you use, if the USER'S ABILITY isn't top notch, then you get crap. Regardless."
So don't question what application someone uses. Question their level of skill - and don't judge the skill by the tool. If I hand Poser to someone who only knows Max, they will produce crap -- until they know how to use Poser to it's fullest capability. It's that simple.

I actually found that people who do CG professionally, and who know their stuff, aren't as quick to jump on the "It's all crap" bandwagon. The naysayers are usually hobbyists. The professionals know about time constraints and learning curves and what tools, hardware and setups you need to do a proper job.
Most of us can't afford that, and they are well aware of it.
I've never had someone look down on me for making an honest effort and trying to do the best job I can, with what I have. Instead I got tips on how to improve something, occasionally some headscratching when I say "It can't do that" and other solutions were offered instead (or a downright "Heck, I don't know how you did that, but if it works...")

There will always be naysayers.
I'm ignoring them. :)

Silke

I don't think Poser users CLAIM to be CG artists. I don't.

But is what I do devoid of art? Well, let me ask this: "Is a photograph art?"

If it is, I argue so are Poser images.

The photographer selects of sets up an existing scene in space.
The photographer selects and poses an existing model (usually a human or other animal)
The photographer examines/selects/controls lighting.
The photographer decides on composition/angles/poses
The photographer attempts to impart meaning/storytelling/beauty into his images.

Every statement above can be true for someone using Poser.

LukeA may have created the set for me... Nature did it for the photographer.
Daz created Victoria... created the model for the photographer.
Bagginsbill may have created part of the light tool... JTL built them for the photographer.

I submit that what I'm doing with Poser and what a photographer is doing is kindred work. If you don't agree, fine. Go read LukeA's post (item 3, to be exact) for my sentiments. If your view is a photographer is not an artist, then we have no common ground to discuss the issue.

As with photography, I suggest that most renders are on a par with snapshots. It is the user who can bring together elements in a harmonious, meaningful way who is the "artist" (if a photographer can be considered an artist.) The rest are virtual instamatic camera users, and create work worth just about as much artistically. (I know this to be the case... I've taught photography at the college where I retired. Most student's work is dreadful until they start studying what makes a good photograph!)

And I agree... most Poser users are at just about that stage in their artistic abilities.

My $.02

---

dphoadley posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 3:53 PM

Quote - > Quote - i think texturing a figure is not art .

maybe if its stylized

Sorry to disagree but ... it is an art form unto itself ...

Right dph? :biggrin:

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Let's just say that I believe that the figures that I use have been imprinted to an extraordinary degree with a certain finesse of my own.
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

---

Paul Francis posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 5:30 PM

I think we all have an internal landscape that sometimes we see in our dreams, and sometimes, if we think of ourselves as artists, musicians, sculptors or whatever, we are lucky enough to be able to illustrate in a form that others can see.  That can take a multitude of foms, from scratchings on a cave wall, to the work (for example) of Millais, Picasso, Lou Reed, Steven Spielberg, the Ramones or any other form of visual or other self-expression you care to name.  As long as what you have created reflects that internal vision and is the best you can do with the tools you have to hand, then it's no-one else's damn business what tools you use.  Sure, an awesome ZBrush sculpt will blow your socks off and represents a serious amount of effort in it's own right, but does effort expended= great art?  My own opinion is that no, it doesn't.  I've had this argument over and over, across at CGSociety.com, where the mere mention of Poser causes rivers of blood to flow and immense flame wars to break out -  funnily enough, now that I've started making serious money with Poser, the critics over there have crawled back under their ZBrush-rendered rocks (I was one of the first people in the UK to own ZBrush and I love it, so don't go there), and are now silent.  I also have an honours degree in Fine Art (painting) and the History of Art, and I remain convinced that Poser is a perfectly valid method of creating art, as is all CG.  To attempt to differentiate between various apps and say that the output of one is art whereas the output of another isn't, is to denigrate all CG art, and is tantamount to saying that someone who makes pictures using paint made by company "x" is an artist, whereas  someone using paint "y" isn't...a ludicrous argument.  Art should be a representation of what you want to portray; the only rider I would add is that, if you want to be able to look yourself in the eye is to say that you really should strive to make your pictures the absolute best that you can, if you don't you're cheating yourself and your creations become devalued.  Just my two-penn'orth.

My self-build system - Vista 64 on a Kingston 240GB SSD, Asus P5Q Pro MB, Quad 6600 CPU, 8 Gb Geil Black Dragon Ram, CoolerMaster HAF932 full tower chassis, EVGA Geforce GTX 750Ti Superclocked 2 Gb, Coolermaster V8 CPU aircooler, Enermax 600W Modular PSU, 240Gb SSD, 2Tb HDD storage, 28" LCD monitor, and more red LEDs than a grown man really needs.....I built it in 2008 and can't afford a new one, yet.....!

My Software - Poser Pro 2012, Photoshop, Bryce 6 and Borderlands......"Catch a  r--i---d-----e-----!"

 

---

dasquid posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 5:50 PM

Then you get the morons who swear that no matter what you do with poser it is not art because you did not make every damned thing in the scene, but they will use a figure from make human and suddenly it is ok.

I was in a drawing class  a couple years ago and the professor told us to make an image with non-traditional media. I made sure that it was ok with him that I used poser before starting up. So I started working on this big recreation of Artimesia Gentileschi's Susanna and the elders, I had most of the scene set up and ready Had Susanna and one of the elders posed and was loading the second elder when poser crashed. Like any good poser user I had saved but when I tried to reload I found that the file was corrupted. There went about a whole days work.

I had several hours left before class so I just threw together a render that expressed my anger at technology in general.

this was it   http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1793811&user_id=69584&np&np

The title is fuck technology As I wrote in the description of the render  immediately upon projecting the image on the wall people started in with their claims that it was not art and that I did not even have the rights to the image. It was all the same elitist bullshit that you get from  max and maya users all the time.

My professor is one of my favorite drawing professors ever he not only told them that they were wrong, he asked what was the difference between collage and poser? They clammed up at that point.

I was kind of in a hurry so I missed the odd angle her right leg is at so that is a flaw that I wish I had not missed.

EDIT:

Oh I often like to bring up a point that is likely true, That the vast majority of individuals using max and maya are using pirated copies (most people don't have 10k, or even 5k, to just drop on a program like that) and most people actively using Poser actually bought it.  ..... (yeah I know that there are a lot of people who have bought max or maya on a student license, or they are really rich or something, but I am willing to bet that a large amount just pirate it.)

---

Miss Nancy posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 5:51 PM

graphic artists who paint with classical methods (oil, goauche et al), sculptors in marble
or bronze, people who draw with pencil/ink etc. don't consider 3D renders to be art, but
as poser users it doesn't harm us in any way, just amongst ourselves, to refer to ourselves
as artists.

just try not to do it with any of the aforementioned artists, as they'll greet any such
conceit with a mixture of derision, fear and loathing IMVHO.  they are threatened by 3d apps
and they know their era is coming to an end.  but not just yet, mind ye.  e.g. look at the attempts
of poser users to do what cartoonists do with ease.  we see nothing but confusion here even
with the simplest concepts, like how to do dynamic line work.  maybe somebody will write a book
or at least buy olivier's shaders so they can get to base 1, anyway.

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ksanderson posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 6:08 PM

Tell them Poser is just a tool. In the right hands it can produce art. CG art.  Yes, it is CG art. It's done with a computer... it involves graphics... it's CG art. Simple. All software packages are simply tools.

Most of the people who have a problem with Poser have a problem with the pre-made models. Either they have a problem with the human form (some people have been brainwashed and conned) and/or they don't like the easily recognizable looks of un-morphed Poser and DAZ models.

If the proper composition, color and lighting rules have been followed and it evokes a feeling, who can't call it art?

CG Talk/CG Society is frequented by more modelers than anyone else, so there is a strong anti-pre-made anything bias going there. Very few there have done anything remotely close to the quality of Poser or DAZ models and doubtfully ever will (if it was fast and easy to model, we could all do it - it's not the same as learning how to draw and paint, which also require talent). And if someone does, the idiots there will claim it's Vicky or Michael unless they've already been anointed as modeling gods. I've seen it happen a few times.

My experience has been the folks with the problems have 1) never made any art, 2) are nut jobs or 3) are wannabes parroting the prevailing wisdom of the forums. Real world pros do not have that bias or lost it a long time ago.

Art is subjective and many from other art fields may have problems with it. You also have the people who prefer real humans over CG humans in movies. Lots of biases out there. So be prepared to have a thick skin about your CG art.

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RobynsVeil posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 9:00 PM

Quote - Carodan's images are art. Do you know why?

1) They create a strong emotion or reaction in the viewer.
2) The reaction is strongly positive. (Some negative images are art, but most are not. Most are just junk.)
3) Even I, an expert with the same tools he uses, cannot reproduce what he did. Yet he is not an expert with these tools.

No question - Carodan is an artist.

And this is precisely why I say I am not an artist. My images do NOT create a strong emotion/reaction in the viewer. I do art for me, to explore concepts I'm learning on here and RDNA and so my images are explorations of those concepts, like gamma-correcting materials and light's inverse-squared falloff and some of the cool materials you can make with a shader, but do those explorations constitute art?
No.
I have shown my images to people at work (nurses and wardies and even some surgeons) and watch the reactions. No "Wow, this is amazing art!" or anything along those lines. It's like: "sheesh, that stone (behind my figure) looks so lifelike" and "her skin is so soft"... yeah, "too soft for skin" is what is really to be understood.

I don't think comments on the gallery here constitute a real feel for your "artwork's" true artistic value. People who post often have an agenda, one that's been discussed to death in another thread.

Perhaps, eventually, I will create a piece of art. But for the time being, it is not my intention. I want to learn the skills first, so that "Poserism" is minimised and the artwork's impact is maximised.

Carodan's images have achieved that.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

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SamTherapy posted Sat, 06 March 2010 at 11:47 PM

If someone told me my work wasn't art I'd say, "OK". and end it there.  Honestly, I really don't give a damn if people think my work - any or all - is art or not.  

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

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LostinSpaceman posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 12:48 AM

Tell them Art lives in Apartment 9B and has no time for their nonsense and walk away.

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Minyassa posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 12:51 AM

Thank you all for making me realize it really doesn't matter what someone else thinks! I appreciate that...I do put a bit too much stock in others' opinions sometimes.

As it turned out, the person in question WAS a CG snob after all. She made a point of telling me how many college credits she had in animation. I was so impressed I...yeah, something rude. Anyway, thanks all.

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mike1950 posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 1:42 AM

"Art" is that which is predefined and supported officially by your government.  If its not on the approved list its not art. :)

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dphoadley posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 2:54 AM

Quote - "Art" is that which is predefined and supported officially by your government.  If its not on the approved list its not art. :)

That sounds like a rather cynical and narrow definition, and I seriously doubt that it'd stand any close scrutiny.
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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mike1950 posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 3:18 AM

Quote - > Quote - "Art" is that which is predefined and supported officially by your government.  If its not on the approved list its not art. :)

That sounds like a rather cynical and narrow definition, and I seriously doubt that it'd stand any close scrutiny.
dph

Thats my point. Individuals, organizations, religions, and even governments, throughout history have tried to define, set rules for, "what is art".  About all that can be said for their efforts is they failed.

I like the quote from that judge defining what is porn, "cant define it but I know it when I see it". The definition is uniquely individual and should remain so IMO.

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LostinSpaceman posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 3:35 AM

Art moved into my flat and left the toilet seat up and now I can't get him to leave!

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dphoadley posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 3:38 AM

"I like the quote from that judge defining what is porn, "cant define it but I know it when I see it". The definition is uniquely individual and should remain so IMO."

I define as porn to be anything that warms my cockles!!!
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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Lucifer_The_Dark posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 4:48 AM

Quote - I define as porn to be anything that warms my cockles!!!
dph

Did you set fire to your trousers again? :tt2:

When you think about it, art is whatever YOU (everyone) want it to be to YOU (everyone). Lightwavers will tell you a perfectly positioned & lighted teapot is art, for some Poserers it's Naked Vicky with sharp objects in hand. It's all relative & personal to each one of us.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

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dphoadley posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 4:51 AM

*"I define as porn to be anything that warms my cockles!!!
*dph"

Did you set fire to your trousers again? "

Yeah!  My breeches they be a burnin'!!!

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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cyberscape posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 5:00 AM

My answer to the original poster :
Tell her to blow it out her ass!! Oh, wait... it sounds like she already did!!  And by the way, her gallery isn't the only place online to post your work. But you knew that already, so be sure to remind her of just how much she and her oh-so-precious gallery are NOT needed!
And... I really like this one from your gallery...

http://renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1962469&user_id=394664&member&np

Dasquid said:  "Oh I often like to bring up a point that is likely true, That the vast majority of individuals using max and maya are using pirated copies (most people don't have 10k, or even 5k, to just drop on a program like that) and most people actively using Poser actually bought it.  ..... (yeah I know that there are a lot of people who have bought max or maya on a student license, or they are really rich or something, but I am willing to bet that a large amount just pirate it.)"

I hear ya!

Case in point, a couple years ago when I started my own website to display my art, I let some local folks know about it through a forum for a night club called "The Art Bar". Understand right off that 9/10's of the people who frequent this place wouldn't know art if it crawled up their leg and ripped their genitals off! Yet I decided to give the heads up anyway. What this got me for a response was one person who said "Cool stuff" and another person who was obviously a 3d-purist-attention-whore. Yeah, this buttplug then goes on to berate Poser and (no shit) actually offers me a "copy" of 3dsMax right there in the public forum!!!!  When I reminded him of this fact, his reply was "What's the big deal?". Needless to say, I was left both speechless and typeless.  A purist who supports warez...... go figure :p

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

AMD FX-9590 4.7ghz 8-core, 32gb of RAM, Win7 64bit, nVidia GeForce GTX 760

PoserPro2012, Photoshop CS4 and Magix Music Maker

--------------------------------------------------------------

...and when the day is dawning...I have to say goodbye...a last look back into...your broken eyes.

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geep posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 5:18 AM

Art is like beauty ... It's in the eyes of (you know who)  ... ...  ... n'est pas?!

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

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Dale B posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 6:05 AM

Like most said, ignore it unless you're familiar enough with the field to fight the good fight. The biggest issue in that argument is that CG blends technical acumen, traditional art skills, capabilities that simply are not possible with real world medias of the past, and leaves the barn door open to the imagination. I animate, and have had this argument about creating all content etc, with others. Usually, it goes like this:

MM(mesh monkey): Not too bad of an animation....what did you model it in?
M (me): I'm not a modeler; I animated in Poser and used Vue as my render stage.
MM: (Various hoots of laughter, derogatory comments, outright sneers, etc) Well, take a look at this! I created all of this! Now -This- is CG art!
M: How long did it take you to make that?
MM: Only 6 months, fool.
M: Hm. So, in another 14 1/2 years, you'll have a whole second of footage in the can. Have fun, I have to go check on the 90 second scene I've had cooking for the past couple of days....

That is an example of exactly how easy it is to alter the argument. So many disciplines go into CG, that you can peel any one of them and strip it of any illusion of artistry. An actual mesh is a pretty clunky thing, even at best, without the shaders or textures to give it the depth, perspective, sense of scale related to surface texture. A shader without a surface to affect is nothing but an unreferenced bit of script, the only elegance perhaps a mathematical one. Without rigging, that textured mesh is nothing but a static object. Without lighting, nothing to see; with bad lighting, well.....your massive fortress might look more like a melted Cracker Jack prize. Camera work is just a matter of judging angles, after all. And so on.....

When all is said and sifted, the real test is how others react to what you've set your hands to. I've seen Bryce Balls over water get more emotional reaction than some piece of crap from Max, because the artist using the cheap program created an emotional piece from his content, where the Max worker made all the emotional impact of a just dried sock. I've had a self professed Maya 'artist' swear that Philippe Bouyer's work in Vue was done in Maya, as no $250 program (at the time) could possibly create something like that. Needless to say the Maya ahhtist wasn't exactly worthy of the Sistine Chapel......and Philippe would be the first to tell you that he was no artist.

Never call yourself an artist; let others do it.

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NanetteTredoux posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 8:13 AM

As Dale B said:
"Never call yourself an artist; let others do it."

Absolutely spot-on.

It doesn't have to be art to be challenging and fun. As we are learning we work within our limits and push them a little. Sometimes we have a breakthrough. That is enough for me.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

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dasquid posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 11:17 AM

Quote -

Case in point, a couple years ago when I started my own website to display my art, I let some local folks know about it through a forum for a night club called "The Art Bar". Understand right off that 9/10's of the people who frequent this place wouldn't know art if it crawled up their leg and ripped their genitals off! Yet I decided to give the heads up anyway. What this got me for a response was one person who said "Cool stuff" and another person who was obviously a 3d-purist-attention-whore. Yeah, this buttplug then goes on to berate Poser and (no shit) actually offers me a "copy" of 3dsMax right there in the public forum!!!!  When I reminded him of this fact, his reply was "What's the big deal?". Needless to say, I was left both speechless and typeless.  A purist who supports warez...... go figure :p

Yeah one of the places I frequent (for shits and grins more than anything else) all the elitist pricks say that autodesk doesn't give a shit about individuals pirating their stuff, they are just worried about companies doing it, because how else are people gonna try to learn it... it is called trial versions and student licenses. one is free the other cheap (compared to the full price item)

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SamTherapy posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 11:36 AM

One of the many things I like about this place - and in general, the community - is how requests for warezed stuff gets very short shrift.  Maybe it's because there are so many vendors actively involved or maybe it's just because we're all basically nice people.

When I think of the enormous amount of freebies there are, the gifts I have received and, in truth, the rock bottom prices of the for pay content, I tend to think it's the latter.  

Back to topic...

I build some of my own stuff.  Does that mean if I feature it in my pics, they suddenly become art?  Or half art?  Or half assed?

Just kidding around.  My opinion on the whole art thing has been stated above and at length in other similar threads.  Just do what you do, enjoy it and ignore the comments from the peanut gallery. 

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

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FrankT posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 2:21 PM

I'd probably say "yes and?" (and have done actually)

I really don't need anyone else to validate what I do - if they like it, fine.  If they don't, also fine.  I make renders for me, not anyone else (so far anyway)

If I ever get a paying gig, provided the customer likes the results then it doesn't matter if it's done in Maya, 3DS MAX or paint

My Freebies
Buy stuff on RedBubble

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BloodRoseDesign posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 2:34 PM

Tell them yup, you agree....and that Hustler isn't porn but a figure pose reference magazine.

missy woot!
:lol:

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bagginsbill posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 3:27 PM

Quote - I'd probably say "yes and?" (and have done actually)

I really don't need anyone else to validate what I do - if they like it, fine.  If they don't, also fine.  I make renders for me, not anyone else (so far anyway)

If I ever get a paying gig, provided the customer likes the results then it doesn't matter if it's done in Maya, 3DS MAX or paint

That's a fine attitude, but it isn't actually apropros the OP's situation. The OP wanted to post an image on a gallery. The person controlling that gallery said it didn't meet the conditions for that gallery.

So in this case, if you are asking a gallery owner to show your work in his/her gallery, then you most certainly do require that the owner of the gallery validates your work. To say otherwise is just unrealistic.

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FrankT posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 3:37 PM

in that case, I'd be finding a gallery owner with a different set of criteria and not worry about it.
I wouldn't try submitting a CG render to a photography or predominantly oil painting based gallery for e.g.  You have to target your submissions, speak to the gallery owners first and see what kind of stuff they are looking for.  Then decide if your work is suitable.

My Freebies
Buy stuff on RedBubble

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mugsworth posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 3:47 PM

I haven't used Poser in a long time. I do check in here to see what is being created and honestly some of what is here is simply breathtaking.

Anyone that doesn't consider this to be art has realy lost the ability to open thier mind to what it is they are seeing.

Keep rendering folks, guys like me completely enjoy what you are producing.

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Minyassa posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 5:23 PM

Quote - > Quote - I'd probably say "yes and?" (and have done actually)

I really don't need anyone else to validate what I do - if they like it, fine.  If they don't, also fine.  I make renders for me, not anyone else (so far anyway)

If I ever get a paying gig, provided the customer likes the results then it doesn't matter if it's done in Maya, 3DS MAX or paint

That's a fine attitude, but it isn't actually apropros the OP's situation. The OP wanted to post an image on a gallery. The person controlling that gallery said it didn't meet the conditions for that gallery.

So in this case, if you are asking a gallery owner to show your work in his/her gallery, then you most certainly do require that the owner of the gallery validates your work. To say otherwise is just unrealistic.

In all fairness to her, because it makes me feel all benevolent and generous to say so, it's her gallery and she can decide what goes into it...but the emotional invalidation of her little knee-jerk fit about Poser was more personally insulting and daunting than not getting to use her gallery.  So the technical validation can be tied to personal validation IF someone lets it be, which I did for about a day. Now I'd had far more engagement and interest from just reading this thread than I would have from any number of passing comments somewhere else, and been reminded what's really fun about this craft.

On the warez issue--it startles me sometimes when people are just as bold as brass about that.  I've had more than one person offer me 3DSMax before, too, in a sort of "oh, you like Poser? Let's move you to a real program and see what you can do" gesture.  This is usually in response to my asking if anyone can just convert a .max to an .obj or .3ds format.  Because giving me four thousand dollars' worth of software is easier than just processing a file for me. o.O  Okaaay.

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bagginsbill posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 5:36 PM

Well I think the important thing is you talked to us and you know you're not alone, hey?

Even more fun - post here and ask for discussion on how to improve or take the image in different directions. I have a lot more fun discussing an image than making it.

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RobynsVeil posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 6:32 PM

Well, colour me naive... and here I really thought that Max and Maya users were so dedicated to their craft / art that forking over thousands of dollars for the software was considered a acceptable investment. That really burst my bubble.
But it does put a different spin on things. Too bad that Autodesk and them don't follow E-on's lead and produce lesser expensive versions, as in, truly affordable, like Vue Esprit is more affordable than Vue Infinite, and upgrading to Vue Studio is not an insurmountable ask.

In today's economy, asking four + grand for software of an individual hobbyist is completely unrealistic. Might as well make it 40 grand. So, it'll be either people who use it at work (the company buys it for them) or professionals who can write it off as a business expense but for most of us it's not an option, at least, not one we can approach and still stay married. Those elitist artistes who set standards of this type... can one assume that not only do they turn a blind eye to illegal acquisition of software but some actually encourage it? The end justifies the means?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

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Minyassa posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 7:26 PM

Quote - Well I think the important thing is you talked to us and you know you're not alone, hey?

Even more fun - post here and ask for discussion on how to improve or take the image in different directions. I have a lot more fun discussing an image than making it.

I definitely know that now. :)  And I may just do that...I have an image I'm working on now that I might want some input on in a while!

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ksanderson posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 7:27 PM

The kids playing with 3DS Max are getting the educational discount, which I've always thought was a shame. The educational license is only good for a year. Between educational discounts and warez, it's totally unfair to the hobbyist and semi-pro small studio, though they do offer financing for the small studios... if your credit's good.

But it doesn't really matter. You don't really need them with Blender's improvements (have you seen what it can now do?!), and DAZ's and Poser's refinements, there's not much need to have anything from Autodesk.

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kukri posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 7:37 PM

Do the naysayers also argue that film and photography isn't art because it uses actors and models?

Please take a look at my latest work. I'd be interested to know if you think it is art.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2028195

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FrankT posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 7:47 PM

Quote - But it doesn't really matter. You don't really need them with Blender's improvements (have you seen what it can now do?!), and DAZ's and Poser's refinements, there's not much need to have anything from Autodesk.

Unless you want to use MentalRay or tight integration with VRay

My Freebies
Buy stuff on RedBubble

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mackis3D posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 9:22 PM

@Minyassa: The opinions you described in your OP are probably less biased than the answers you get here - in a Poser forum...

I agree with the gallery owner, you mentioned in another posting, who said the difference is if you created the models and textures yourself. Everything else is posing and staging where the software rendering does most of what finally comes out as an image. To compare it with photography: It's not art when you set up a scenery in a studio and find the best lights for it. A photographer not only combines that he also knows his tool and what he shoots is what he sees in the preview, but no 3d software preview shows the image as it is in the render. A lot of Poser users barely know their tool and their renders show it. Not everything which is inspiring or creative to us is art. Judging the galleries probably 10 % do really artful images, in my opinion. By the way: you know that art critics are generally hated by artists? Film critics are hated by all involved in film making AND the audience. Nevertheless I trust some film critics more than my best friends if I decided which film I want to see because they have a professional eye on what they see. The Poser forum is the most unlikely place where I would expect a honest critic that could help me if I were out making art.

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bagginsbill posted Sun, 07 March 2010 at 10:22 PM

Quote - The Poser forum is the most unlikely place where I would expect a honest critic that could help me if I were out making art.

If you had said the Poser "gallery" instead of "forum", I might have agreed with that.

But in this forum, in the Rendo criticism forum, and especially in my forum at the Node Cult, you will get criticism and assistance to improve whatever it is you as an artist think you should improve upon.

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Lucifer_The_Dark posted Mon, 08 March 2010 at 3:32 AM

The gallery is for "ooh lovely picture" comments, the forum is for critical comments on what you did wrong in your latest masterpiece & how you can fix it to make it better. :D

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

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mackis3D posted Mon, 08 March 2010 at 9:32 AM

Yes, the gallery. I remember in the forum was even a discussion thread about the gallery that dealt with that. Please read my former posting with "gallery" instead of "forum", it's  mixed up.

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marcus55 posted Tue, 09 March 2010 at 11:59 AM

Most of the truly gifted artists never talk or act like they are superior to everyone else..   in fact, they often talk and act as if they are worthless hacks who rarely have anything of value to contribute to artistic endevour, however are producing some undeniably beautiful work...  why?  because they know what has been done already by masters and also know they will never produce anything equal to that...  but does that make them throw in the towel and take up coin collecting??   nope...

I've always had more than a small amount of suspicion for anyone who goes around talking as if they are a 'great artist' and only give negative feedback to most everything else they see..  

I don't know about anyone else..  but personally I don't give a shit what tools you are using, if I feel inspired by an image then to me it works and qualifies as 'art', even if it was created using crayons...

When people say this doesn't qualify as art or that doesn't because of blah blah blah..   you have to wonder what motivates them to make a statement like that and what they hope to gain from it... 

I use poser, photoshop, 3d max, etc., because I just really enjoy using the tools available on PCs, I think the possibilities are endless and any tool that is that powerful has value, regardless of what anyone else may say about it...    am I an 'artist'?   I don't know and don't care...   it's the enjoyment I feel from having the tools at my fingertips and seeing if I can create something that makes me smile..  or laugh..  or cry...  or cringe with fear and that makes me want to keep clicking that render button...   if I ever produce something 'great' so be it, but I won't quit on it unless I decide I'm tired of it and am ready to move on...  :o)

M

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artdude41 posted Wed, 10 March 2010 at 11:57 AM

.............its not the size of your program , its how you use it  !

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FightingWolf posted Wed, 10 March 2010 at 3:34 PM

If I'm not an artist because I render images with Poser then I want a bagginsbill button setting in my poser so I don't have to spend hours and hours creating the scene and doing the post work.

People take models like V4, A4, and other 3D models to create thousands of variations that don't look anywhere close to the original model.  To me it's like working with clay. Clay looks the same at the start, but it's the artist's creativity and skill that turns it into art.  People who create pottery or stone carvings didn't make the clay or the stone, but it's what they did with it that made it art. Painters didn't make the paints that they use and that tube of paint starts off the same for everyone else, but it's the artist's creativity that turns it into art.  Poser and other 3D rendering programs work in the same manner

By the way. I'll be waiting for that bagginsbill button setting on the next update of Poser 8  LOL
**
**

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vholf posted Wed, 10 March 2010 at 11:10 PM

Well I consider this art

http://miguelcolucci.deviantart.com/art/Prometheus-152631484

Art is subjective, but I agree with BB when he says Most poser images are not art. There's also a conceived difference between art and CG Art, where on the latest you build all the models and the scene from scratch, look at http://www.zbrushcentral.com/ to get an idea.

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bagginsbill posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 6:43 AM

Heheh. I figured this thread would bubble along for weeks. And it is. It is such a sensitive topic for Poser land.

I understand the reasons for the consternation on both sides. It is true that some people dismiss any individual Poser art without even considering what it took to make, based solely on the collective body of work produced by the Poser community. This, they should not do.

However, I think that some Poser users would have the same attitude, if the topic were something else, such as cooking and the notion of "chef" versus "cook".

Consider - imagine you go to a restaurant and you eat:

1) A beautifully arranged Caesar salad on a lovely plate. However, it came from a Stop and Shop (grocery brand) bag with croutons and dressing already prepared by the factory. (Still damn good, but the local "chef" did not make it. He did choose the plate, and did toss the salad with the dressing, adding a bit of chopped anchovy, and arranged the croutons.)

2) Garlic shrimp and pasta with vine ripened cherry tomatoes. Except, it came from a frozen bag of Bertolli, made in a factory. (Bertolli is restaurant quality food, according to Bertolli.)

3. Fresh cream cheesecake, topped with candied strawberries. (From a Sara Lee box.)

If you ate this meal (along with a good wine and nice atmosphere) and nobody told you that all of it came from factories, you'd probably say it was an excellent meal, and the restaurant was great. No doubt, it was food, artfully prepared. If you paid around $24 you might even proclaim it a bargain.

Imagine your reaction when you walked around the building and saw the restaurant's trash can with the Stop and Shop salad bag, the Bertolli bag, and the Sara Lee box. Heheheh.

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dphoadley posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 7:41 AM

What if I take a photograph of a famous actor from a movie, use my vast collection of Posette and Dork face morphs to morph either Posette or Dork to look like him, and then remap the body to take the V3/M3 skin texture of my choice, and texture her/him in the Mat room.  What if I change the default values on the textures to be something different to enhance the skin texture even more.  What if I then pose them in a setting that I created from a vast array of discrete props, some of which I modified in either UV Mapper/3ds Max or both.  
Would that constitute art?
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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carodan posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:01 AM

(...I will not get sucked into debates about what is art.....I will not get sucked into debates about what is art....)

I haven't read this whole thread, but this general debate has been ongoing over the past 100 years at least and probably much longer (in modern times certainly since Duchamp first plonked that urinal in an art gallery, and remember the dadaists were making collages long before this).

I think one of the problems is that art really defies a concrete objective definition (a work of art can be effective given certain criteria but not others and still be powerful), and we all know how slippery subjective opinion is.

The issue raised here is really one relating to the of appropriation of ready-made elements used to construct a work (similar to collage) and whether this practice somehow intrinsically disqualifies the result from being art. My response would be no, but the result still might fail to qualify based on other criteria - what the image maker chooses to do with those elements etc.

People creating all their own content are bound to add that process as being integral to 'their' definition of what makes a resulting work or render 'art'. As a painter if I grind and mix my own pigments then I'd probably say that this process has some bearing on the final painting, but it doesn't necessarily affect the way I choose my subject or how I compose my painting. Just because I grind and mix my own paint, it doesn't mean the resulting painting will be a work of art. I think the same is most likely true of CG rendering.

 

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                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

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bagginsbill posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:06 AM

Exactly. As I said in my first post in this thread:

The important aspect of this is effort and quality, taken together.

I don't care if you spend 1000 hours grinding paint or adjusting UV maps, if the result is really no different than an unskilled child produces by slapping together a V4 with a bought texture, and the image has no style other than what you accidentally get by rendering without gamma correction, and the composition is great but the message is really nothing whatsoever to keep your attention for longer than it takes to dismiss it, then guess what the reaction will be.

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bagginsbill posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:10 AM

Furthermore, despite what the first post said "regarding x is not art" the real issue was a CG artist dismissing Poser work as not being CG art.

We don't have a dictionary definition for CG art, but I'm pretty sure I know what the CG art community thinks it means as a whole, and it means painting, not collage. It means creating scene elements to match the vision, as opposed to matching the vision to the scene elements you happen to have or buy or download.

Argue all you want, but if your vision is Ben Kingsley, but you only get it looking sort of like it by adjust morphs for 80 days, you're NOT a CG artist.

Go to CGSociety and find the Ben Kingsley image. You'll see what I mean. No amount of dial spinning even comes close - spend a million hours you won't come close.

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dphoadley posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:11 AM

Quote - I don't care if you spend 1000 hours grinding paint or adjusting UV maps, if the result is really no different than an unskilled child produces by slapping together a V4 with a bought texture, and the image has no style other than what you accidentally get by rendering without gamma correction, and the composition is great but the message is really nothing whatsoever to keep your attention for longer than it takes to dismiss it, then guess what the reaction will be.

Really!?  I DO declare.... upon my troth!
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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bagginsbill posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:15 AM

Heh. I mean no disrespect DPH.

I count myself as decidedly NOT an artist. I am a pigment grinder, and I spend a LOT of time doing that because I enjoy it. I have never thought that any of my renders are art.

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dphoadley posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:32 AM

I don't consider myself an artist either, but most of my renders I think to be kinda nifty.  Also, I think that I've put enough personal endeavor and modification into my figures as to qualify as NOT being out of the box, or bought straight from the nearest super market.  The cherries may have come from a can, but I've stirred them around with fresh mint grown in my garden, added other spices that I picked up here and there, so I thnk that I can declare a certain amount of originality to my work.
Just today, I took a Gerald day prop, the Georgian Window room, and ran it through UV Mapper Pro to remap the walls base boards so as to take some Victorian Wall paper textures that I picked up as a freebie for another prop altogether.  Then later, I took a copy of the same prop and loaded it into 3ds Mas and knocked a hole in the wall where the Window was so as to created a doorway, so that with both copies of the prop in my Poser Pose Room, I have a complete 4 sided room, with a door on one side and a window on the other.  Now I assembling tables and chairs so as to make it a Victorian Guesthouse dining room.
But of course, for the purist, none of this is art, just craft.  But fine craftsmanship isn't a bad ideal either.
dph

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bagginsbill posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 8:36 AM

Exactly! Fine craftmanship, no doubt.

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hobepaintball posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 1:10 PM

Can anyone answer "are we welcome on Deviant Art"  I read their agreement and it seems since we are not making our meshesd and textures, we are not.

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FrankT posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 1:52 PM

of course we are.  I have a DA account and portfolio

My Freebies
Buy stuff on RedBubble

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dphoadley posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 2:55 PM

Quote - Exactly! Fine craftmanship, no doubt.

Bagginsbill, I would point out that a lot of 'Original' CG art, done in 3ds Max, is based on ready made primitives: Sphere, Cube. Cylinder, Plane, Cone, etc.
I too often use similar Poser Primitives in creating my scenes: Walls, Walkways, Floors, Ceilings, Door Posts, Glass Panes, etc.  To what extent does this not match what the Max artist does so as NOT to qualify, since BOTH rely on ready made geometry as the foundation of a scene?
dph

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FightingWolf posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 3:40 PM

"Just because I grind and mix my own paint, it doesn't mean the resulting painting will be a work of art. I think the same is most likely true of CG rendering."

Reminds me of my 7th grade teacher said.  "Everyone owns a pencil, but it's what you do with that pencil that makes you an artist."  said in reference to learning how to sketch.

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gamedever posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 3:50 PM

 Whenever someone says 'You're using Poser? You didn't make those models? You didn't paint those textures? That's not art!' I always reply, 'Tell that to a professional photographer. He didn't make his models, his scenery, his sun or moon.'

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bagginsbill posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 3:56 PM

Quote - > Quote - Exactly! Fine craftmanship, no doubt.

Bagginsbill, I would point out that a lot of 'Original' CG art, done in 3ds Max, is based on ready made primitives: Sphere, Cube. Cylinder, Plane, Cone, etc.
I too often use similar Poser Primitives in creating my scenes: Walls, Walkways, Floors, Ceilings, Door Posts, Glass Panes, etc.  To what extent does this not match what the Max artist does so as NOT to qualify, since BOTH rely on ready made geometry as the foundation of a scene?
dph

Well, by analogy to cooking, simple primitives are like simple ingredients, such as milk, oil, eggs, water, flour. We don't expect a chef to design and build a tractor, buy a farm, plant the wheat, harvest the wheat, and grind the flour. That's not what makes a chef. "Cuisine" does not require that you construct every component of the meal from raw atoms.

Now some chefs will sneer at others who don't make their own pasta from flour, eggs, and water, but used manufactured pasta instead to make Lasagna. Here is a gray area, where the great chef makes a distinction, but ordinary consumers might not. This is your CG Society CG artist.

Then there is the guy who opens a package of Stoffer's frozen pasta and puts it in the microwave. Nobody thinks that guy is a chef.

And it isn't just about what level of ingredient you're using. There has to be some merit to the result.

I don't care if you spend 9 years adding spheres to a scene and carefully positioning each one, you can still end up with something that isn't art. Why? Because I could write a program that does that automatically and finish the same scene in 10 minutes.

I've seen "artists" artfully assemble dog poo and put it on display. Sorry - that just isn't art. My dog does just as well - all I gotta do is put a pretty plate under his butt.

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dphoadley posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 5:12 PM

So, if you were to look at my Firelight series, would that constitute art, or merely craft: taking into account that I was trying to reproduce scenes from a movie using screen shots of same.
dph

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marcus55 posted Thu, 11 March 2010 at 6:28 PM

all true...

isn't there another thing to consider though..?   or perhaps it's best stated with a question..

What is art for???   Does it serve some purpose?   and if it does then does it not succeed insofar as fulfilling that purpose even if it only does for one single person looking at it or experiencing it in some way..?  

any form of art if it happens in a void it doesn't mean much, but even in the eyes of only one person it can be a great thing that has meaning...

just a couple more thoughts on it...  ;o)

M   

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SaintFox posted Fri, 12 March 2010 at 12:22 AM

*Exactly! Fine craftmanship, no doubt.

...and that's the thing that often gets mixed up IMHO. In fact art has nothing to do with skill or even effort. When I was a child I often heard the saying "Kunst kommt von Koennen" - "The term Art comes from Skill". Then I went to school and did my first outdoor painting and decided to paint part of the clouds in a dark purple as to me it looked as if we will get a thunderstorm later. In the end I was not really satisfied when seeing what others painted: Bright blue skies with white clouds, the colors matching exactly what the eyes see. But my teacher comforted me by saying "Kunst kommt von Kuenden" - "The term Art comes from bearing witness".

I hardly would consinder most things I do art because, most of them tell of nothing but beauty, skills and so on. Sometimes I have the feeling that I want to capture something, a mood, a feeling, something I read about... and that's where things get difficult. This is far harder than "just" trying to achieve a result that is close to technical perfect.

A far better example than my attempts on painting is an exhibition we had here a while ago. The artist did nothing but paint canvas on stretcher frames with different shades of blue, yellow, red and green. Then he decorated four empty exhibition rooms each with one color. I had "this feeling" that I often have when it comes to abstract paintings, I felt fooled. Then the lady from the local newspaper came and wrote a large article about how skillful and thoughtful and whatnot this artist is - and she decided to ask himself and so, under his photo, I found the simple sentence: This exhibition is not about painting or even images. I wanted to offer the audience the chance to stay in the rooms and feel the colors, to make the experience of what a color does to them.

And of course a collage can be art. Just think about this famous album cover
http://socialbydesign.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/2421135485_de8cc56203.jpg
You can do something likewise with Barbie and Ken (and their indestructable smiles) and consider it art because it may make people think.

By following this theory (and of course it's only one theory amongst thousands) Michelangelo's David is not art but finest craftsmanship - if there would not be that callus on the thumb that may want to tell me that David was a thumb-sucker *

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls

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WandW posted Fri, 12 March 2010 at 5:59 PM

Here's an unfortunate case they are talking about over at DAZ, where a Deviantart member was tossed out of a group for plagarism for not crediting his DAZ models used in his render.  The comments made in the second screencap are along the lines of what are being discussed in this thread...

teturo.deviantart.com/journal/30389571/

Disclaimer; I don't know either party, but thought it was germane to the discussion here.

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Larry F posted Fri, 12 March 2010 at 7:46 PM

Talk about your "dead horse."  Good grief!  This kind of thing pops up persistently and is obviously never going to go away.

As far as what one might want to "... tell someone ...", you might want to start with "Take a hike."  As an argument, this can never be won because it falls into the realm of "point of view" and/or "opinion". 

Save yourself the trouble and just keep on keeping on to ... er, coin a phrase.

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carodan posted Fri, 12 March 2010 at 8:17 PM

IMO documenting your work and crediting content creators is generally a good thing. While some sites like Renderosity  have a fairly relaxed attitude about it , others are obviously more hard-lined. I personally think that is a mistake but they obviously have their own philosophies and agendas. I would note that the Deviant Art example you linked to relates to a group within that site - I have no idea since I don't frequent it whether the parent site is so scrutinising.
It might seem heavy handed, and I don't know all the details of that case, but rules are rules if you play the game on a given site or in a group - 'When in Rome' and all that. If something has been misunderstood or misinterpreted by the admins or users then that's worth clearing up, otherwise accept the flack.

From my point of view even if an artist doesn't include credits where the render is posted, so long as they are prepared to do so when asked and don't dishonestly pass off other people's skilled work as their own, I don't see the problem. Proactively crediting is useful but not always practical (if a lot of ready-made elements are used and time is limited). A lot of people hold to the opinion that since they payed for an item they shouldn't have to credit ('why should we have to do their advertising for them?' - well, if they make good stuff and we want to see more...), but I do think it's at least fair when someone enquires.

There are often times when browsing the galleries here when I wish there was slightly more info posted with renders giving specific details of third party content, software actually used to render, whether postwork was involved etc (but this is another long running debate). I can't complain as I don't always include those details myself.
For me though this isn't a question of attempting to qualify the competence of the artist based on what they actually did in every minute detail. For me if it's an interesting image, composed competently but more importantly that it resonates something beyond the sum of it's elements, then I can accept the artists input. That has value to me.

In the Poser and Daz hobbyist domain it might seem particularly relevant to credit all the elements used in renders since for the most part we don't make all our own items - although we may tinker, adjust and refine what we buy or pick up as freebies. But generally we don't - it's not the game we're playing. We're collaging, composing, concentrating on the ideas, or just simply having fun.

Serious or fun, ther results can still be art - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If a group or site doesn't like how you do things, either see it their way or find somewhere else to play.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

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carodan posted Fri, 12 March 2010 at 8:26 PM

Quote - Talk about your "dead horse."  Good grief!  This kind of thing pops up persistently and is obviously never going to go away.

As far as what one might want to "... tell someone ...", you might want to start with "Take a hike."  As an argument, this can never be won because it falls into the realm of "point of view" and/or "opinion". 

Save yourself the trouble and just keep on keeping on to ... er, coin a phrase.

Part of the point of forums like these is that we can have living and ongoing debates. Often different people come along and say exactly the same things as other before them but in a different way. This does have value for the ongoing life of the community. New generations of folk are coming to this game all the time.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

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SaintFox posted Fri, 12 March 2010 at 9:27 PM

*Part of the point of forums like these is that we can have living and ongoing debates.

• You are so right! Usually I stay away from subjects like this but this thread is different as people keep it civil and IMHO on a pretty high intellectual level. *

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls

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marcus55 posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 9:55 AM

Quote - For me though this isn't a question of attempting to qualify the competence of the artist based on what they actually did in every minute detail. For me if it's an interesting image, composed competently but more importantly that it resonates something beyond the sum of it's elements, then I can accept the artists input. That has value to me.

thank you, this is how I think of it... 

:o)

M

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Khai-J-Bach posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 10:04 AM

What to tell someone that thinks Poser work isn't art?

you say 'First, lets define "art". can we infact quantify what is art on a non-personal level into a readily definable quotient? now, once we have this scale, where does poser, infact all CG art, fall on it, compared to the great masters such as Di Vinci?

but seeing as we're still stuck on the first part, the eternal question of 'what is art?' anyway, we could be here a long time. who's round is it?'

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arcebus posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 11:15 AM

"Rembrandt? Rembrandt was NOT an artist!"
* - "but.... he painted some fantastic images... look for his lights... those shapes.... those wonderful structures... the heartblood he put into those expressions...."*
"Yeahyeahyeah - but he used BRUSHES to paint! Everybody can do this with BRUSHES!"

(And, being a professional in the academical threadmill for - wait - almost 25 years now, my opinion is: the question is not, "what is art" - the question is "who dares to tell me what is art and what not.")

www.skin2pix.com

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dphoadley posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 11:25 AM

But professional portrait painters use ready-made LIVE models!  They don't go out and selectively breed their models first!  They take the product of someone else's selective breeding and use THAT!

So, in what way does this differ from the selective using of ready made meshes?
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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marcus55 posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 12:19 PM

The word art rhymes with -

apart, blackheart, bogart, cart,

chart, dart, depart, descartes, dogcart,

fart, flowchart, forepart, handcart, hart,

heart, impart, mart, mouthpart, mozart,

outsmart, oxcart, part, pushcart, quart,

rampart, rechart, smart, start, swart,

sweetheart, tart, thwart, upstart...

So I guess art is - 
a cart full of farts pulled by an upstart
bogart tart without a heart who loves
Mozart....

or something like that...    lol

M
 

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arcebus posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 12:35 PM

*They don't go out and selectively breed their models first!*

What an interesting idea. dirtiestpossiblegrin

www.skin2pix.com

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arcebus posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 12:37 PM

And the use of contemporary (or old...) tools doesn't make something "no Art".

www.skin2pix.com

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SaintFox posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 5:26 PM

"Yeahyeahyeah - but he used BRUSHES to paint! Everybody can do this with BRUSHES!"

Somehow this reminds me on discussions like

"Can comics be art?" or "Is there some artwork between all those airbrushed images?"

...and that tells me that a medium has only be old enough to be considered art.

Just think about Alberto Vargas or grandpa's dirty postcards...

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls

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SeanMartin posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 6:34 PM

What to tell someone that thinks Poser work isn't art?

"That's nice."

Then I'd go back to making some art.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

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Khai-J-Bach posted Sat, 13 March 2010 at 6:37 PM

this is a serious question:

Who's round is it?

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marcus55 posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 1:36 PM

I have an old book that I love called 'The Art of Fiction' written by John Gardner...  it discusses art as it pertains to fiction writing, but I think it applies to any form of art...

a few quotes from it:

'Art depends heavily on feeling, intuition, taste.  It is feeling, not some rule, that tells the abstract painter to put his yellow here and there, not there, and may later tell him that it should have been brown or purple or pea-green.  It's feeling that makes the composer break surprisingly from his key, feeling that gives the writer the rhythms of his sentences, the pattern of rise and fall in his episodes, the proportions of alternating elements, so that dialogue goes on only so long before a shift to description or narrative summary or some physical action.'

'In other words, art has no universal rules because each true artist melts down and reforges all past aesthetic law.'

'To the great artist, anything whatever is possible.  Invention, the spontaneous generation of new rules, is central to art.'

'Whatever works is good.'

Those are a few of his thoughts on the subject...  and I agree with him.   I think any tool is fine as long as it is used in a creative fashion...

M

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bagginsbill posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 2:43 PM

Sigh. I understand that the OP wrote of art, but the original objecter in question meant CG art, not art in general.

If you claim to be a photographer, but you don't use a camera, you're not a photographer. You can't post oil paintings on a photography web gallery, right?  This is not in dispute, I assume, right?

If you claim to be a water color artist, but you photographed your image and used a Photoshop watercolor filter, then you can't post that in a water color artist gallery, right? Or no. Is this unclear for some reason?

OK - the CG artist community defines a CG artist as somebody who creates an image using content THEY CREATED. Period. The community known as CG artists gets to say what they mean by that.

People who do not agree with that are trying to say otherwise, and claim to be CG artists.

I'm not interested in the definition of art.

I am interested in the definition of CG artist. Which is what this is really about. So let's discuss that.

And I really don't mean to discuss CG artists. I mean, the interesting question here is this:

When an artist community (sect, subset, group, etc.) defines itself with a new term, and other people want to appropriate that term to confer upon themselves the honor and admiration that normally acrues to those for whom the term fits, without actually acquiring the skills necessary and without actually doing the work (but doing other work that falls outside the definition) then the big question is - what should happen?

CG artists define themselves around the idea that they can create anything from nothingness. A real CG artist (not a fake) can and does realize the vision by a God-like creative ability - to cause a shape to appear where none existed before. A CG artist does not "open a can of content" or "thaw a bag of content". They create, starting with vertices and edges, a shape that never existed before.

Some people want to argue about this definition. Why?

Just make up some other kind of art name involving a digital collage of 3D elements.

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dphoadley posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 3:04 PM

"Just make up some other kind of art name involving a digital collage of 3D elements."

CG Apprentice
CG Jopurneyman
CG Craftsman
CG Master Craftsman

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

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arcebus posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 3:51 PM

Just to mention this: this is my personal opinion:

Well - I think that CG artwork cannot be separated from all other artistic concepts which produce a lasting, visual result.

Or the word "artist" could not longer be used.

According to Bagginsbills theory - transferring this to "classic" artistical techniques - Michelangelo would not have been an artist ( he used a marble block which he didn't create himself ) and also the great Rodin who defined scultpures totally new would not have been - he neither digged for clay himself, nor did he cast the bronze that made, when taken out of its mold,  artwork that can take a human heart apart.

If Bagginsbill follows the direction he has entered here, than a CG work could only be art if

• the artist made his own models, his own textures and his own plot
• the artist wrote the application for the creation of models and textures
• the artist wrote his own 3D application and renderer
• the artist build his own computer
• and the artist made his own electrical power

And even if the efforts of (groups of) artists go the way above pretty far, then they still can fail in a, well, glorious way - such a failure just went through the theatres of the world.

"Art" always has to do with a process of modification - modifying the surface of a piece of marble, the shape of bronze, the surface of a canvas or paper or a caves wall, the way a TFT colours it's pixels or a piece of light-sensitive material is toned.
I totally understand the concerns about people who use pre-created material - but before I even think about the question "how did s/he do it?" I ask myself: "did s/he see what s/he tries to tell me?"

If CG art is discussed with the same terms we use for all other artwork, then she same measures must be used. And every piece of art(work) tells an idea - beginning from the cavemans painting to contemporary techniques.
And, I, very personally, can respect someone who tells a story - or "talks" about emotions, dreams, or his personal reality using pre-shaped paterials at least as well as I can respect somebody who made a glorious 3d model with a wonderful texture and a *** render for an advertisement of another car that will stand - stinking - on a trafficlight next year.

An artist is not somebody who started to work so-and-so-long ago or had this-or-that exams and/or successes in the past. The "material" can be just everything that, in any way, communicates. An artist is somebody who bets his life on the fact that what he is doing, in it's results reaches other people, for good.

And, of course: "All art is predecessed by craftsmanship" (J. W. v. Goethe)

typo

www.skin2pix.com

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SeanMartin posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 3:54 PM

Attached Link: gilgamesh

I just finished work on a life project -- GILGAMESH. Off and on for almost two years. And I'd pop someone really hard who told me it wasnt "art".

Not plugging, but if you're interested, check the link. WARNING; nekkid people.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

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Khai-J-Bach posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 3:56 PM

look.
for a discussion like this, there is a serious lack of alcohol.

who's buying???

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arcebus posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 3:58 PM

who's buying???

You. Absinth for me and my buddies Auguste and Vincent-

www.skin2pix.com

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SeanMartin posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 6:04 PM

Jack on the rocks here. Make it a double -- it's gonna be a long night.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

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ksanderson posted Sun, 14 March 2010 at 7:32 PM

Quote - Bagginsbill wrote:

OK - the CG artist community defines a CG artist as somebody who creates an image using content THEY CREATED. Period. The community known as CG artists gets to say what they mean by that.

People who do not agree with that are trying to say otherwise, and claim to be CG artists.

I'm not interested in the definition of art.

I am interested in the definition of CG artist. Which is what this is really about. So let's discuss that.

And I really don't mean to discuss CG artists. I mean, the interesting question here is this:

When an artist community (sect, subset, group, etc.) defines itself with a new term, and other people want to appropriate that term to confer upon themselves the honor and admiration that normally acrues to those for whom the term fits, without actually acquiring the skills necessary and without actually doing the work (but doing other work that falls outside the definition) then the big question is - what should happen?

CG artists define themselves around the idea that they can create anything from nothingness. A real CG artist (not a fake) can and does realize the vision by a God-like creative ability - to cause a shape to appear where none existed before. A CG artist does not "open a can of content" or "thaw a bag of content". They create, starting with vertices and edges, a shape that never existed before.

Some people want to argue about this definition. Why?

Just make up some other kind of art name involving a digital collage of 3D elements.

BB, I usually enjoy and find valuable the info you impart, but I have to respectfully disagree on this as I have found and believe otherwise.

The community at CG Talk/CG Society did not create the term CG art.
CG art comes originally from a Japanese term. And it's defined as artwork created with the assistance of a computer. A pretty wide encompassing definition if you ask me.

I really don't care what a bunch of wannabe modelers think. Modelers are the only ones who seem to think that CG art should only include models created from scratch. Professional commercial CG artists do not create everything. They'd never meet their deadlines if they did. Most pros I know do not have a problem with Poser or DAZ models. They think some of the artwork made by users stink, but some of the art made by alleged CG artists (usually punk kids) who roll their own is sub-par as well.

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marcus55 posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 1:03 AM

When I think of CG artists I think of the pros who are getting paid a lot of money for their work, because the work they are producing is at a level of quality most of us can only dream about..  

but none of them do it alone...  

they work in teams; one team does the modeling, another the animation, another the texturing, another the lighting, etc..    The finished product is a blending of the effort of all of them, which when combined creates a single piece of work...   so how can only the ones doing the modeling be true CG artists?   if it weren't for the animators, texture artists, etc., it wouldn't work at all...   I just don't agree with that line of thinking at all..  

I do understand the reason for it though - sticking some canned content up there, adding in a couple of lights and clicking 'render' doesn't make someone an artist..  but my point is it can if it's done tastefully with feeling and the simple belief that the reason for it matters...

• personally I love the material room in poser the most..  I know that's where your expertise lies Bagginsbill and I have learned a great deal from just listening to you talk about it..  and I thank you for sharing your knowledge with everyone...   it's what has kept me interested in the program all this time...

honestly that's the whole reason I use the damned program..  if it wasn't for that aspect of it I would throw it away, or give it away or something...   I've learned a lot about the material room since I started, but know I have a very long way to go to really understand what is possible and how it can be used...   it is such a powerful part of poser that I know I'll be using it for years and always love it...  unfortunately I have a very limited amount of time with it because my 'day job' is so all-consuming it leaves me only a precious few hours a day to myself...   

M

  

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RobynsVeil posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 8:53 AM

I agree with you, Marcus - that IS the most exciting part of Poser. Creating a visually-appealing image is truly secondary. So, since I'm not inspired to create a meaningful scene depicting something emanating from my soul but rather want to see how Vicky's legs reflect in the procedural water, I voluntarily disclaim being of artistic bent.

Oh, and I'm way a novice, still. But having an ginormous amount of fun!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

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SeanMartin posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 9:22 AM

To the folks from CG's credit, making a model is tough. I do it at my job on a regular basis, and it's hard work. So I can understand they're thinking "Oh, it's just one from Column A and two from Column B".

Problem is, they, like us sometimes, confuse art with craft.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

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AnAardvark posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 12:21 PM

Quote - Can anyone answer "are we welcome on Deviant Art"  I read their agreement and it seems since we are not making our meshesd and textures, we are not.

I've posted most of my images on Deviant Art and have had no ill response.

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marcus55 posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 1:25 PM

Quote - To the folks from CG's credit, making a model is tough. I do it at my job on a regular basis, and it's hard work. So I can understand they're thinking "Oh, it's just one from Column A and two from Column B".

Problem is, they, like us sometimes, confuse art with craft.

I agree with this having tried my hand at modeling with 3D max..  the program still tries my patience even after many hours of working with it...  but I will keep trying to learn it even if it takes years..   lol

Another thing I'm still trying to learn is after creating the model taking it into poser and adding the bones and so on to make it poseable...  a tedious process at best, but one that can have satisfying results when it does work...  

I have a lot of respect for those with excellent modeling skills, but also for the great texture artists, animators, etc..

M

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marcus55 posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 1:34 PM

Another thing is that the people getting paid 'big bucks' for their work are using extremely powerful machines and software far beyond what most of us will ever have access to...   they have programs written specifically to do the tasks they need to do..  I have a feeling that if most of us sat down at one of those machines and looked at the interface we would basically scratch our heads and think - 'where do I begin..?'   lol

Kind of like looking at the blender interface..  I wish I could get my hands on a book or something....    lol   

M

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SeanMartin posted Mon, 15 March 2010 at 1:51 PM

My one experience with the folks at CGTalk was done on a bit of a dare. I posted an image there, without really talking about how it was developed, just what it was (which was an early draft of one of my CANDIDE images). Lots of nice compliments, a few pointers on lighting and texturing -- but the overall consensus was that it was a pretty nice piece of work.

I wonder if they'd say the same thing if they knew it was Poser.

Eh. Probably not.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

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SaintFox posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 3:25 AM

*I'm not interested in the definition of art.

*But it's important! Because we are talking about CG art. So what we have is Computer Graphic - the computer and the graphic application can be called the tool, like canvas and brush, clay and knife! No you can go and create a complete scene with all it's content by yourself. Definitly a challenge and definitly skillful but not per se art. I think that we acknowledge about that - although I saw indeed more art amongst those works where everything was made from scratch.

But IMHO it's not the tool that makes the art, it's what you get in the end. I've read the same comment several times: We've seen this 3d-model over and over meanwhile", (now what model may that be...) - and people are right. But that's not what seperates art from trash.

And whatever a group may define as art and allow in it's holy halls is okay - it's their group, they make the rules. But that doesn't mean that they are right.

I wonder if they'd say the same thing if they knew it was Poser.

Hmmmm.... "Paint over the Poser model by hand, post the image again and turn it into art!"??? LOL

...and I think that the initial question is almost answered by all the postings here. What to tell sombody who says "Poser-work isn't art"? "That's one of three different opinions: It is - it isn't - It depends on whether... (insert 1000 more arguments here)!".

 

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls

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SeanMartin posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 7:49 AM

And ultimately, who cares?

Just make the damn images and be done with it. If someone doesnt call it "art", fine. If they do, bonus points.

But tell me, what are we looking for here? Validation? Is that what it really comes down to?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

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marcus55 posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 12:19 PM

Quote - And ultimately, who cares?

Just make the damn images and be done with it. If someone doesnt call it "art", fine. If they do, bonus points.

But tell me, what are we looking for here? Validation? Is that what it really comes down to?

Nope, don't need that, but facts are facts....   

hey, never meant to derail the conversation with above posts....  

I'd rather stay out of it than do that...  

M

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wespose posted Mon, 22 March 2010 at 3:23 PM

But yet this stuff is called art :
http://wiggz.com/paintings/minimalist-art-gallery.php

To me ,even the most basic use of Poser 5 produced better Art with a load and render approach.

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SamTherapy posted Mon, 22 March 2010 at 4:02 PM

Quote - *I'm not interested in the definition of art.

*But it's important! 

 

Nope.  Only to critics, dealers and those shallow enough to believe an image/sculpture/tune/whatever is inherently better than another simply because one is labelled as art.

The only valid definition of art is: It's something which avoids definition.  I could write a million word essay on why I'm right but I can't be arsed so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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