JIMMYJOHN opened this issue on Mar 17, 2010 · 123 posts
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 4:20 PM
Hi to all,
I just got a REBELMOMMY character (RM Courtney) but I have problems lighting it with POSER:
1- Its skin looks too dark overall.
Things can be improved by increasing the intensity of lights but that is not a viable solution as the rest of the scene and other parts of the model (eyes, mouth...) is then overlit.
2- Its skin lacks contrast. Whaterver light I use, it is brownish with hardly any darker/lighter areas.
I have tried tweaking things in the material room with no luck.
The lightsets and render settings I try to use work just fine with all the other models I have.
Pity because Coutney is a lovely girl and I'd love to include her in some of my images.
Any idea on how to improve things? What parameters should I look at?
Thanks in advance.
PS: i'm quite new in rendering so please bear with me
IsaoShi posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 6:08 PM
Hi Jimmyjohn...
We will need to know what version of Poser you are using. It makes a difference to what you can or can't (easily) do.
Skin shaders vary enormously between vendors, and often between characters from the same vendor. There are lots of variables to play with... to do with gamma correction, lighting, skin shaders, etc. etc... but we don't know what to suggest unless we know your starting point.
So let's also see a render, and your lighting setup, please.
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
Miss Nancy posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 7:02 PM
you can't post the shader tree here (copyright violation), but try turning off these channels, 1 by 1, until you spot the problem channel:
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 8:22 PM
Thanks to both of you for your concern.
I was going to post a rendered image and print screens of my setups but now I'm not sure I'm allowed to do that!
I can see shader nodes alright but no shader trees.
Where can I find them?
(Sorry for my incompetence, remember I'm a newbie)
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 8:46 PM
A shader "tree" is the whole collection of interconnected nodes.
I love RM's character sets. I have a couple of them. She uses a more complicated shader than most vendors. I would make a few corrections to her shaders, but by and large they are good - better than most.
You don't need to show us her node setup, nor are you allowed to. I think I know what they are, because in the products I have from her they are identical - just different texture maps are used.
The shader includes some nodes that absolutely don't do anything at all, as they are connected to the translucence channel with the Translucence_Value set to 0. Those nodes do a bunch of calculations which are then ignored. LOL They render a bit slower than they could because of that.
There is also some peculiar use of a colored spots node connected to the Diffuse_Value. The values end up being so close to the same that the whole chain is doing close to nothing.
There is also a ColorRamp+Diffuse node that adds some redness in shadowed areas (faking subsurface scattering.) This chain causes all kinds of grief with IDL since it makes parts of the character glow red when it should be black in the absence of any light. But that isn't a problem you encountered. This part of the shader was copied from Daz, which was made by face_off, who got the idea from an early skin shader I posted years ago when I was first trying to figure out skin shaders. It amuses me to see how many places this shader subtree shows up in. The Diffuse_Color is set to a light blue to balance against the added red from that branch.
There is a Blinn node for specular, which is the right node. But it has some Edge_Blend stuff in it copied from face_off''s shaders that are reproducing what the Blinn node would do by itself if the parameters had been set correctly in the first place.
Anyway .... long story short, I don't think RM's shaders generally produce overly dark results, or low contrast results. In fact, I'd argue they produce an unrealistic amount of contrast.
Perhaps you could show us a render and talk about your lighting setup.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 8:49 PM
They look lit well to me.
If you look closely in armpits and between the legs, you'll see the extra red glow that shouldn't be there.
The underwear on the Kyrsten figure is actually part of the texture - a "second skin". It's pretty cool, but it's supposed to be black. The reason it looks brown is because the skin shader has that dark red glow added to it.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 8:52 PM
There are quite a few subtle differences, but nothing major. RM"s shaders produce a little more contrast but that can be a matter of taste as to which is more desirable. I tend to think mine is more realistic.
Note - the darker figure seems to have an excessive amount of specular reflection on the forehead. That is not the shader. The specular is burned into the color map. This is one of the little "issues" I have with some of RM's textures.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 8:56 PM
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 8:59 PM
Attachments must be under 200KB.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:03 PM
Sorry, it was a wrong ext (.png)
You can see it looks much darker than yours (and than the promo images) despite using very strong lights
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:05 PM
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:06 PM
What version of Poser do you have?
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:07 PM
162% intensity!?! And so many lights! Oooh we have some work to do. That light set is nonsense. Complete garbage.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:08 PM
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:10 PM
Don't bother posting any more light settings. I already know why you have problems.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:12 PM
I use POSER PRO
I m afraid I used 5 lights to get to this point.
There is obviously something wrong.
I know I am a pain but also completely lost.
As you said, the girls from RM look gorgeous so I'd be delighted to use them.
So I'd be grateful for any tips hints & advices you could give me.
Please let me know if I can help with more info.
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:14 PM
Quote - Don't bother posting any more light settings. I already know why you have problems.
Phookin hell ! Already?
Do I have to call you Master? God? (wink)
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:15 PM
Poser Pro - excellent. We can fix the this with GC and using a more rational lighting setup.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:21 PM
Just making sure - you have Poser Pro (the first one), not the new Poser Pro 2010, right?
I mean I can see it is in the screen shots, but want to make sure you don't have 2010 to work with. (If you had it, we'd use it.)
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:24 PM
Quote - Just making sure - you have Poser Pro (the first one), not the new Poser Pro 2010, right?
I mean I can see it is in the screen shots, but want to make sure you don't have 2010 to work with. (If you had it, we'd use it.)
That's correct.
I don't have the newer 2010
BTW, what's GC?
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:33 PM
GC is Gamma Correction. Very important. Without GC, lighting does not make sense.
It is because computer monitors (and every other digital imaging device) uses luminance values specified in a non-linear format called sRGB. Renderers calculate lighting in linear color space, not sRGB color space. When we display the result, it looks wrong. People generally compensate by adding more lights.
When you take into account the fact that images are not linear luminance, but sRGB, then everything becomes easier. The process of converting from linear to sRGB space is called gamma correction. There is more to a linear workflow, though. It requires that incoming material (user-defined colors, color maps, etc.) have to be converted from sRGB color space to linear color space. Then you do the rendering calculations. Then you convert back to sRGB color space for the final result. Poser Pro has all this built-in and will do it automatically.
If you didn't have Poser Pro, we'd have to do a lot more work.
I'm making a simple light set for you. But I haven't worked with Poser Pro in a long time. I'm using Poser 8 or Poser Pro 2010 now. Anyway, I'm testing it with my RM Kyrsten in Poser Pro. It's taking a long time because Poser Pro's library is hard to navigate. It takes me a lot longer time to find things compared to Poser Pro 2010.
Also, Poser Pro renders much more slowly.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:42 PM
GC: I have tried turning it on & off but it didn't make any difference so I never bothered changing its value. ( so far, it's been set at 2.20 on all my renders)
So many things to learn and parameters to take into consideration...almost frightening.
As I said, I am very grateful for your help but at the same time I am embarrassed that you spend so much time helping me solve my problem (creating a lightset, rendering...)
On a side note, I sorted out the problem by modifying Courtneys texture JPEGS with photoshop
(adjusting brightness/contrast) so that I could use her more easily with other models and accessories.
The result was more or less acceptable but not intellectually satisfying.
Also, your avatar is simply amazing. Is it an image you made?
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:54 PM
Sorry I'm taking so long. Poser Pro is incredibly slow. I can't believe what a difference it made since I got Poser 8.
Also, I'm getting some very strange results in Poser Pro with RM's skin shaders. When I turn on GC, it looks horrible. (And it's so darn slow it's taking forever to try different settings.) I don't want to tell you to turn on GC if the result is crap.
I did the renders above without GC in Poser 8. I've been practicing different lighting and tone mapping settings for a long time. I've gotten so used to using HSV Exponential (because Poser 8 doesn't have GC) and now going back to just GC is not getting results I expect. Apparently, my brain has been rewired by Poser 8.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:56 PM
Quote - GC: I have tried turning it on & off but it didn't make any difference so I never bothered changing its value. ( so far, it's been set at 2.20 on all my renders)
So many things to learn and parameters to take into consideration...almost frightening.As I said, I am very grateful for your help but at the same time I am embarrassed that you spend so much time helping me solve my problem (creating a lightset, rendering...)
On a side note, I sorted out the problem by modifying Courtneys texture JPEGS with photoshop
(adjusting brightness/contrast) so that I could use her more easily with other models and accessories.
The result was more or less acceptable but not intellectually satisfying.Also, your avatar is simply amazing. Is it an image you made?
Don't worry - I like helping. And I've discovered I don't know anymore how to get good results with Poser Pro. Weird. I'm supposed to be an expert in all things Poser.
Yes, hacking the texture is not intellectually satisfying. What will you do with the other 20 textures you have or will have? We must find a way to use them effectively.
I might end up having you use VSS.
Yes I made my avatar a long ago. It is P6 James with a fish-scale procedural shader (Koi) that I made quite a while back.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 9:59 PM
I added a simple white prop to show there is plenty of light.
I'll be back. I'm not sure that RM's shader works with GC at all. I got it to work fine in P8 with HSV Exponential tone mapping, but that's a totally different formula.
Do you see the white lines in the textures? That is from texture filtering. RM's shaders have it turned on. I'd have to go turn it off in all material zones, or use a lower minimum shading rate (MSR). Low MSR costs more time. PPro is already unbearably slow for me. If I lower the MSR to get rid of those lines, I'm going to burst with impatience.
I can't believe how much I managed to learn with such a slow program.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:01 PM
I should be the one to be sorry for abusing of your time and patience.
Maybe you can give me hints on what to do and let me experiment with it, then I can come back to you with the results.
Are you saying there are bugs with POSER PRO and I'd be better off getting another version?
If so, which one?
(I previously had a problem with the bucket size that screwed up my renders. It took me ages to solve it)
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:09 PM
RM includes two sets of mat poses for her sets. One set has the complicated multi-node shader. The other set is just the diffuse color map and the bump map - nothing else. She calls this the "NoShader" or NS version.
I loaded the NS mat pose and rendered again with GC. Look at the incredible difference.
What are we to conclude from this?
The complicated RM shader produces good results in Poser 8 with normal lights, but bad results in Poser Pro with or without GC. The NS version is fine with GC.
Obviously her shaders were never tested with GC. This is a problem.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:11 PM
Quote - I should be the one to be sorry for abusing of your time and patience.
Maybe you can give me hints on what to do and let me experiment with it, then I can come back to you with the results.Are you saying there are bugs with POSER PRO and I'd be better off getting another version?
If so, which one?
(I previously had a problem with the bucket size that screwed up my renders. It took me ages to solve it)
No there is not bug in Pro. It's just that my earlier renders were using some tricks I know in Poser 8 that are not available in Poser Pro. Apparently those tricks make the RM shader work OK without GC and without crazy bright lights.
I have to assume RM tested her shaders in Poser 7 with crazy hot lights or something. I don't know.
I do know that this isn't the fault of any version of Poser. It's a common mistake. I even made it myself when I published the first set of VSS shaders.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:14 PM
Quote - Well guess what. When I turn on GC, I get horrible dark skin like you did.
I added a simple white prop to show there is plenty of light.
I'll be back. I'm not sure that RM's shader works with GC at all. I got it to work fine in P8 with HSV Exponential tone mapping, but that's a totally different formula.
Do you see the white lines in the textures? That is from texture filtering. RM's shaders have it turned on. I'd have to go turn it off in all material zones, or use a lower minimum shading rate (MSR). Low MSR costs more time. PPro is already unbearably slow for me. If I lower the MSR to get rid of those lines, I'm going to burst with impatience.
I can't believe how much I managed to learn with such a slow program.
I always get these white lines with lower render settings (draft) but they disapear with higher settings.
As you say, it looks to me like they mark the limits between the different parts you find in the MAT room (ie: skin torso/skin arm)
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:23 PM
Quote - Look at this.
RM includes two sets of mat poses for her sets. One set has the complicated multi-node shader. The other set is just the diffuse color map and the bump map - nothing else. She calls this the "NoShader" or NS version.
I loaded the NS mat pose and rendered again with GC. Look at the incredible difference.
What are we to conclude from this?
The complicated RM shader produces good results in Poser 8 with normal lights, but bad results in Poser Pro with or without GC. The NS version is fine with GC.
Obviously her shaders were never tested with GC. This is a problem.
Incredible difference!
Hats off, Master !
Thanks ever so much, I can't tell you enough how grateful I am and I don't know how I'll be able to repay you.
Take care.
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:28 PM
PS: I find the POSER manual pretty basic. It forces to work by trial and error and that makes the learning process rather tedious.
Do you know where I can find a better tutorial?
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:30 PM
Now I've put in a new shader. It's still pretty simple, nothing like RM's or my VSS one, but works great with Poser Pro when GC is enabled. The goal is something you can do by hand pretty quickly.
You could use VSS to do it faster, but I don't want to pile too many new things on you.
Here's the latest render.
I'll give you the light set, and also a screen shot of how to set up the skin shaders. It should only take you 15 minutes.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:31 PM
Quote - PS: I find the POSER manual pretty basic. It forces to work by trial and error and that makes the learning process rather tedious.
Do you know where I can find a better tutorial?
Yes. I'm writing a book. When it is finished, please buy it. I don't know any book that exists today that covers lighting and shaders the way I am doing.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:35 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:37 PM
Note - my Poser Display Units are set to inches. This is important. The Bump parameter you see in my screen shot is .02 INCHES. If your PDU is different, you will need to switch to inches before entering the .02. Then you can switch back to your preferred unit.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:42 PM
Save the file in your Runtime, libraries, Light folder or a subfolder in there. Remove the .txt extension that I had to add to get it to upload to this forum.
Load that light set. Make sure GC is enabled. Also in render settings you must enable raytracing and shadows. Don't show me a render without shadows - I will vomit. grin
Note - I saved it from Poser Pro 2010. You'll get a warning about it being a newer version. Ignore that - it will work.
The main light is white at 80%. You can adjust that up or down, but stay in the range 50 to 100. Don't be tempted to go over 100 unless you know why and have discussed it with me. Don't change the light color unless you know why and have discussed it with me.
The rim light is white at 40%. You can adjust that up or down or turn it off, too.
The IBL is white at 30% and is set up as a procedural light - so no image is needed. This is your ambient or secondary lighting control. It is very good for adjusting overall illumination. It does not make specular effects. Only the main and rim light make highlights.
Show me what you get.
(Note: Close to bed time for me, so I might not reply till tomorrow.)
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:54 PM
Please let me know when your book is out and where I can get it, I will definitely learn a lot from it.
I am a bit dizzy from having absorbed so many new things.
I'll digest them, experiment and come back to you with the results.
Thanks for everything.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 10:54 PM
Look at this. What is up with the eyebrows?!?
Have a look at this thread. I think you'll find it enlightening.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2796835
If yours looks like this, after you get your luminance sorted out, come back and I'll discuss how to put a procedural bump on your figure that will work much better.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 11:23 PM
Quote - Here's the simple shader you should use for skin. The nodes called Color Map and Bump Map are just Image_Map nodes. I renamed them using my shader building tools.
So far I haven't been able to find a shader for the whole body, but one for each part (arm, leg...)
You now realize how much I have to learn...
bagginsbill posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 11:28 PM
Yes there are many parts of V4 that each have a shader. You need to set them all up with the same nodes, but with the appropriate texture files.
This is what my VSS script does. You load the skin shader in one place and it copies it to all the different skin zones, but using the right maps. You load an eye shader in one place and it copies it to both eyes. You load one nail shader and it copies it to both fingernails and toenails.
Once you get into doing lots of shader adjustments, it is a huge time saver. But there is a small learning curve for those already familiar with shaders, and a larger one for those who aren't.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 11:35 PM
For now, I'll try to adjust one shader (let's say skin torso) and see how it goes.
(I've just realised it's 5.30 am...!)
Tomorrow, I'll check your VSS script.
Thanks again
Vestmann posted Wed, 17 March 2010 at 11:36 PM
Quote - I'm not too fond of RM's bump maps. She makes them from the color map and they are f'ed up.
Look at this. What is up with the eyebrows?!?
Have a look at this thread. I think you'll find it enlightening.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2796835
If yours looks like this, after you get your luminance sorted out, come back and I'll discuss how to put a procedural bump on your figure that will work much better.
Procedural bump would be a treat. I don't know how many texture kits I have with annoying bump maps.
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 12:42 AM
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 6:53 PM
1st of all, unlike other models, RM Courtney has only 1 MAT, no choice between shader & non shader sets.
I've been able to load the light you gave me and to run your VSS script.
Attached is a render using the "default" VSS shader.
What can I say but that it looks great, 1000x better than what I achieved before.
And now, RMC reacts to light the way it should.
Thank you Sir! You're my hero and a great teacher.
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 6:59 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:01 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:02 PM
Vestmann posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:25 PM
Hmm... seems like you're using VSS1. There is a version 3 on bagginsbill VSShomepage:
[http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage
](http://sites.google.com/site/poserbagginsbill/vsshomepage)It's the link called VSS PR3 Control Prop. Give that one a try...
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:30 PM
Actually, I have dloaded both like it says, so I have 3 props.
I am loading the VSS generic one.
Do you mean I should use one of the other 2? (PR3 AO or NO AO?)
Vestmann posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:35 PM
Probably best to start with PR3 NO AO. The other one adds ambient occlusion to the character which will slow down your render time.
bagginsbill posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:37 PM
Yeah just throw away the old ones. PR3 is the way to go.
I've got some things to do but I'll be back.
The bumpy skin is because your Poser display units are not same as mine. Your .02 is not the same as my .02. Change your units to inches, then enter .02 in the Bump value.
Then render again.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:38 PM
Thanks! I'll do that.
Vestmann posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:51 PM
Hehe the master is back so you're in good hands :) VSS has drastically changed how I use Poser and I´m sure you'll enjoy using it. Good luck.
@ bagginsbill: I've been toying with the idea of doing a tutorial on VSS. I'd like to do a PDF that covers everything some setting it up to using the designer to create custom VSS props. I have way to much time on my hands and it might teach me a thing or two. Thoughts?
bagginsbill posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:55 PM
So if you're going to use VSS, you don't need to bother with the simple shader I gave you, although you could use it if you wanted. VSS already has a more powerful shader with lots of options and easy to use controls.
But it doesn't seem you're using it correctly. But I'm not sure - you showed multiple things that seemed inconsistent. The first image you posted today, the green one, doesn't look like a VSS shader nor like the simple shader I gave you. But you said you used the "default" VSS shader. I don't think so.
In the next post (6:59 pm) you showed a screen shot of the PR1 Template Skin shader.
In the next you said "This is what I got after Synchronizing" showing 2_SkinTorso. Nope. If you had Synchronized, that complicated Spaghetti from Template Skin would have been in 2_SkinTorso. Instead, you showed the simple shader I gave you yesterday. You must have loaded that by hand, since you didn't load it into Template_Skin.
Anyway, let's forget the simple shader for the moment, since the VSS PR3 NO AO skin shader offers so much more.
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:56 PM
Quote - Hehe the master is back so you're in good hands :) VSS has drastically changed how I use Poser and I´m sure you'll enjoy using it. Good luck.
@ bagginsbill: I've been toying with the idea of doing a tutorial on VSS. I'd like to do a PDF that covers everything some setting it up to using the designer to create custom VSS props. I have way to much time on my hands and it might teach me a thing or two. Thoughts?
Sure. I've been wanting to do a video, but haven't got round to it.
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 7:58 PM
Hmm. Maybe I'll record and upload a video. Hang on. Might take me a few.
Meanwhile, JJ, when you click Synchronize, you should be getting a Python script window saying what VSS is doing. Do you get that? There have been cases where people thought it was running but it didn't run at all. The output window will tell the story.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 8:38 PM
I can say for sure the 1st image was done using VSS1 generic prop.
If it wasn't, with such a low light my model would have been dark brown like it was yesterday.
I am now experimenting with VSS3:
Not exactly sure of what I am doing (for that I would need an intensive theory course and also to buy me a brain...)
But I m messing around with what you call shader tree - although it still doesnt look like yours:
as you can see I still can't link DIFFUSE COLOR to COLOR MAP, BUMP to BUMP MAP, DIFFUSE VALUE to ALT SPEC, etc
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 8:42 PM
PS I do get the script listing all the body parts and saying syncro has been done.
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 8:49 PM
Quote - Hehe the master is back so you're in good hands :) VSS has drastically changed how I use Poser and I´m sure you'll enjoy using it. Good luck.
Indeed, I realise i couldn't be in better hands.
Yesterday, I hardly knew what a python script was...
("What a difference a say makes, 24 little hours" la la la)
hborre posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 8:52 PM
To connect the color_map to the Diffuse_color, left click on the male end of the node's plug and drag a connection to the female end of the plugh on your posersurface.
Vestmann posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:00 PM
Quote - > Quote - Hehe the master is back so you're in good hands :) VSS has drastically changed how I use Poser and I´m sure you'll enjoy using it. Good luck.
Indeed, I realise i couldn't be in better hands.
Yesterday, I hardly knew what a python script was...
("What a difference a say makes, 24 little hours" la la la)
Hehe 24 hour wakes! I've had quite a few of those as well ;) VSS will teach you a lot about the material room as well and you can find quite a few threads around here with techniques by bagginsbill that will teach you a lot too.
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:06 PM
Thanks to your explainations I was able to connect DIFF VAL to ALT SPEC
But I can't find the color map though
So many things to learn,,,
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:11 PM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Hehe the master is back so you're in good hands :) VSS has drastically changed how I use Poser and I´m sure you'll enjoy using it. Good luck.
Indeed, I realise i couldn't be in better hands.
Yesterday, I hardly knew what a python script was...
("What a difference a say makes, 24 little hours" la la la)Hehe 24 hour wakes! I've had quite a few of those as well ;) VSS will teach you a lot about the material room as well and you can find quite a few threads around here with techniques by bagginsbill that will teach you a lot too.
If I don't die of exhaustion before! (wink)
It's now 2 am so it's closer to 40 hours...
Vestmann posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:17 PM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Hehe the master is back so you're in good hands :) VSS has drastically changed how I use Poser and I´m sure you'll enjoy using it. Good luck.
Indeed, I realise i couldn't be in better hands.
Yesterday, I hardly knew what a python script was...
("What a difference a say makes, 24 little hours" la la la)Hehe 24 hour wakes! I've had quite a few of those as well ;) VSS will teach you a lot about the material room as well and you can find quite a few threads around here with techniques by bagginsbill that will teach you a lot too.
If I don't die of exhaustion before! (wink)
It's now 2 am so it's closer to 40 hours...
Okay I haven't done 40 hours since I finished the game Mafia ;) Hope your supply of coffee is good :) It's 2 am here too by the way.
Your last screenshot shows your changing the preview material. That won't do anything when you hit synchronize. Select the Template Skin from the material list and do your changes there.
Don't put any image maps on the VSS prop though. Change image maps on the figure it self. Hope I'm not overloading your brain with this :) I think bagginsbill is cooking up a video for you so that should explain all in more detail. Feel free to ask questions in the mean time though. I'll help as I can also.
hborre posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:30 PM
The color_map is the same as an image_map, just differently named.
And as a side note, Vestmann is correct about the VSSProp. Do not attempt to add any texture maps to the prop itself. The script is written in such a way that it will overwrite and incorporate and shader nodes connect to the posersurface node. So, if your original model has 1 texture map connected to Diffuse_color, when you synchronize VSS, the model's original connection will be overwritten and the texture map will be assimilated into the VSS shader pipeline.
Edit: I agree with Vestmann, the VSSProp manual should be rewritten to reflect the current node arrangement, the newer albino skin VSS, and demo how to construct a VSSProp for props and hair.
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:31 PM
Yes, I think I need a rest :
I used the skin template with VSS1, preview with VSS3.
I not doing anything good any longer...
So I'll try your tips tomorrow.
Still I have a few questions:
Are you in Great Britain? (don't answer if you feel that's too personal)
What's the MAFIA game? Where can I check it?
Also, what are your favorite female models? Why?
(tryin to make a Poser harem...but they are so many of them don't know which one to chose)
Vestmann posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:39 PM
Quote - Yes, I think I need a rest :
I used the skin template with VSS1, preview with VSS3.
I not doing anything good any longer...
So I'll try your tips tomorrow.Still I have a few questions:
Are you in Great Britain? (don't answer if you feel that's too personal)
What's the MAFIA game? Where can I check it?
No, I'm in Iceland. Nothing personal about that ;)
Mafia is an old PC game. It was one of the first that a truly gripping story line along with an open world to drive and shoot in. Don't know if it's in stores today. You can see the intro from it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKsaJe2zKSo&
They are currently developing Mafia II It's website is here:
http://www.mafia2game.com/
Now get some rest before your head explodes haha!
JIMMYJOHN posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 9:52 PM
Quote - > Quote - Yes, I think I need a rest :
I used the skin template with VSS1, preview with VSS3.
I not doing anything good any longer...
So I'll try your tips tomorrow.Still I have a few questions:
Are you in Great Britain? (don't answer if you feel that's too personal)
What's the MAFIA game? Where can I check it?No, I'm in Iceland. Nothing personal about that ;)
Mafia is an old PC game. It was one of the first that a truly gripping story line along with an open world to drive and shoot in. Don't know if it's in stores today. You can see the intro from it here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKsaJe2zKSo&
They are currently developing Mafia II It's website is here:
http://www.mafia2game.com/
Now get some rest before your head explodes haha!
Iceland, wow, that's quite exotic!
Stunning Mafia trailer despite the low res vid. Great cam movements.
But I'll wait until tomorrow to visit the site so I can better appreciate it.
Take care
bagginsbill posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 10:47 PM
Rats. I tried several free screen capture utilities. Only one I found had a convenient ability to show full screen or zoom in on a smaller area and track my mouse - utipu. Unfortunately, although the capture looks good, the audio falls behind the video each time I render. I played with it for an hour adjusting things and could not get it to work right. In the last video I tried, the video was 30 seconds behind the audio.
So - does anybody know a good free screen capture movie maker that can track my mouse zoomed in, or show full screen dynamically using a hot key to switch that produces FLV files?
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
hborre posted Thu, 18 March 2010 at 10:53 PM
Pssst, (whispering) BB offer them a free autographed copy of your book. That will make them come out of the woodwork!
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 2:57 PM
Quote - Rats. I tried several free screen capture utilities. Only one I found had a convenient ability to show full screen or zoom in on a smaller area and track my mouse - utipu. Unfortunately, although the capture looks good, the audio falls behind the video each time I render. I played with it for an hour adjusting things and could not get it to work right. In the last video I tried, the video was 30 seconds behind the audio.
So - does anybody know a good free screen capture movie maker that can track my mouse zoomed in, or show full screen dynamically using a hot key to switch that produces FLV files?
I have FASTSTONE SC, it's very basic and doesn't do any of that.
But if it's only a problem of resyncronising the audio, it should be easy to do using WINDOWS MOVIE MAKER.
Do you want me to have a try at it?
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 3:13 PM
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 3:30 PM
You can edit your VSS prop to apply to any figure you want but first you need to take time to understand how VSS operates. It's real simple once you get it.
Select your VSS prop and go into the material room. In the material list you'll see two materials called Apply Rules and Shader Rules.
Apply Rules controls which figures or props VSS will be applied to. Bagginsbill set it up so it would apply to every figure in the scene but you can change that.
Shader Rules controls which material zone on your figure gets changed by VSS's materials. I'm having difficulty wording this in a good way. Take a look at the Shader Rules for a minute and look at how the nodes are connected. For example, There is a node called skin that's connected to a Copy Template Skin node. That means that if your figure has a material zone with 'skin' in it's name it will be changed by the Template Skin material on the VSS prop.
With me so far?
You can change all this with the Designer script that's included in the VSS panel. Let me know if you want to have a go at it.
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:16 PM
Hi Vestmann
Im with you all the way but can't find the VSS control panel.
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:20 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:41 PM
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:42 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:47 PM
Thanks a lot.
And I thought I knew how to use POSER because I could dress up a model, pose it or make a little anim...How wrong!
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:52 PM
Okay here are the steps to changing VSS so it only applies to the figure you want:
Select the VSS Prop and go into the material room. Make sure you also have the Python script panel. If you can't see the panel go into Window - Python Scripts. I´m assuming you have VSS loaded and you can see these three buttons; Synchronize, Render and Designer.
Select Apply Rules from the material list. Delete the two rule nodes that are there.
Hit Designer from the python scripts panel. You'll get a new set of buttons. Hit Add a Rule Node.
VSS now asks to choose a new rule. Hit the arrow beside None and from the drop down list select other - type it in.
Now enter the name of your figure in the empty box and hit OK. You should now have a new rule.
That's it. In your case you have two Victorias, one name Victoria4 and one called Victoria4 1 so you can enter Victoria4 in the box. You can also give one of your figures more specific name by changing name of it Body in the Properties panel.
Let me know how this goes.
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 4:59 PM
Great! That should be simple enough for me.
I'll experiment and tell you how it goes
Thanks, that's very nice of you
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:02 PM
No problem. When you've got this under control. You should take a look at the PM nodes in the Template Skin material.
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:27 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:32 PM
OK, PM nodes: gamma, bump, shine...
I can see them alright, they look oh so very pretty ! (only joking...)
May I ask you how you guys learn about all this?
Because it doesn't look that user friendly to me.
Do you just experiment?
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:33 PM
Glad it worked! Now go and play with the PM nodes in the Template Skin material on the VSS prop. You're using Poser Pro so if you're rendering with Gamma Correction your first job should be to adjust PM:Gamma to 1. Remember to always hit Synchronize after you've made changes to the control prop.
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:39 PM
Quote - OK, PM nodes: gamma, bump, shine...
I can see them alright, they look oh so very pretty ! (only joking...)
May I ask you how you guys learn about all this?
Because it doesn't look that user friendly to me.
Do you just experiment?
Yes, experiment and as you've seen bagginsbill is very generous with his help. A simple question to bagginsbill can open your eyes to a whole new level of using Poser ;) I can give some pointers on the PM nodes if you want...
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:46 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 5:53 PM
Quote - > Quote - OK, PM nodes: gamma, bump, shine...
I can see them alright, they look oh so very pretty ! (only joking...)
May I ask you how you guys learn about all this?
Because it doesn't look that user friendly to me.
Do you just experiment?Yes, experiment and as you've seen bagginsbill is very generous with his help. A simple question to bagginsbill can open your eyes to a whole new level of using Poser ;) I can give some pointers on the PM nodes if you want...
Oh yes, I fully realise how you guys are friendly and helpful.
And i know guys like me can be tiresome.
So when you've had enough, just ignore, i'll understand.
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 6:10 PM
Yes that Gamma value is correct.
Ok here are the PM nodes. Now I'm no expert on these but I'll explain the ones I use the most.
PM: Color Tint
Pretty self explanatory. You can use to give the your skin a tint of color (duh:) Just be aware that this will darken the skin. You can use PM:boost to counteract that.
PM:Bump
Adjusts bump strength. This will vary greatly depending on the bump maps you have on your figure. Sometimes the bump on the lips is way too strong while the rest of materials are ok. I usually correct by going into the lip material on the figure or create Template Lips material on the VSS prop.
PM:Shine, PM: Shine Spread and PM: Shine Level.
Ahh these are my favorite and I know bagginsbill is pretty proud of this little invention. This controls specularity in a masterful way. When you adjust PM:shine you affect both the spread and value of specularity. For example, if you increase the Shine value to 1 you'll get a stronger and narrower specularity. So if you want to adjust specularity, first adjust PM:Shine. If you then want adjust the level or spread separately you use PM:Shine Spread and PM:Shine Level.
PM: Diffuse Reflectivity
Controls the Diffuse value. I lower this when rendering with IDL but you probably don't need to worry about it. Feel free to experiment with it though.
PM:SSS, SSS Color and SSS Falloff
Subsurface Scattering. Actually this is fake SSS. I sometimes change this to a blue color to make the skin colder. To be honest I don't use this much and I usually keep this low since I always use IDL now. Experiment ;)
PM:Boost
This boosts the effect of VSS. This can be good when you add a color tint to your skin as it lightens it. This will also affect specularity so might need adjust the Shine value when you change this.
To get a sweaty/wet skin try a PM:Shine value of 1 and a PM:Bump value of maybe 0.05 - 0.08. Make sure your using Inches.
IsaoShi posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 6:19 PM
This is sort of an aside, but it's a good tip for speeding up your workflow.
There's no need to wait for good quality renders when testing out skin shaders and lighting like this. You can turn down the render settings to make them fairly quick, and back up again when you get to fine tuning the details. Save yourself some render Presets so you don't have to change every setting. I have 7 presets that work well for me, as shown in the screenshot. I select one of these and make any fine adjustments if necessary.
Could you show us the render settings you are using for testing, and we can make suggestions how to make it quicker for you? It's easier than listing all the possible things you could change, without knowing what settings you are currently using.
Also, what size are you doing your test renders? Selecting Half render size reduces render time to around one quarter of the full size render.
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 6:35 PM
IsaoShi posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 6:57 PM
Ah... I never use the Auto settings screen.
To begin with, I would suggest you switch to the Manual Settings screen and import the above Auto settings. Then reduce Irradiance caching to 20 or less and increase the Min shading rate to 2 or more, and bucket size to 32, or 64 if your PC will take it. This should make your test renders quicker, but you should still be able to see what's happening with your changes to lighting and shaders.
Once you've set the aspect ratio and full size of your render, there's no need to change dimensions for the test renders... you can just select Half size, or use the "Fit in preview window" option, if your Preview window is a reasonable size.
The dpi setting is irrelevant, by the way. It makes no difference at all to the render.
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
hborre posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 7:56 PM
BTW, Vestmann you forgot to mention that the other templates in VSSProp has gamma correction settings but the nodes are not as obvious as the skin template.
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 8:02 PM
Quote - BTW, Vestmann you forgot to mention that the other templates in VSSProp has gamma correction settings but the nodes are not as obvious as the skin template.
Naughty naughty, Vestmann! (wink)
JIMMYJOHN posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 8:07 PM
Thanks, my friend.
I'll try with this setting and see if it reduces render time.
Don't ask me why but bucket size is only a problem for high quality renders, especially with
the HDRI option on.
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:00 PM
Quote - BTW, Vestmann you forgot to mention that the other templates in VSSProp has gamma correction settings but the nodes are not as obvious as the skin template.
I guess my use of VSS is only skin deep ;) I don't even know where to adjust gamma for the other materials and I haven't found a reason to since my characters look good without further gamma corrections.
hborre posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:19 PM
hborre posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:20 PM
hborre posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:20 PM
hborre posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:21 PM
Vestmann posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:23 PM
hborre posted Fri, 19 March 2010 at 9:24 PM
The others have no formal complicated node structures. Template Innermouth could be substituted with Template Skin nodes for bump and extra texture enhancement.
JIMMYJOHN posted Mon, 22 March 2010 at 10:36 AM
Thanks to all for your time and patience in helping me solving my problem.
I m very grateful.
@BragginsBill
Thanks for providing me with all your great stuff and your advices.
Poser is now a different ball game and nothing would have been possible without you.
On a side note, VSS works better for me with lower Gamma Correction settings (closer to 1)
with higher ones, RMC is now overlit.
Last, advertise loud and clear when your book is out. we don't want to miss it.
@Vestmann
Thanks for all the info especially all the step by step guidance.
That was crucial, I couldn't have done without it.
Also, you seem to be a very nice person.
@IsaoShi
Thanks for dividing my render time by 3 or 4
@Hborre
Thanks for your timely and precise interventions
bagginsbill posted Mon, 22 March 2010 at 10:41 AM
Sorry I've been so busy. I meant to tell you that since you are using render GC in Pro, you do not want the shader GC enabled that comes with VSS. You found that out yourself apparently.
With PPro, use render GC, and set shader Gamma = 1.0
Or, if you prefer per-shader GC (for extra control) use shader GC=2.2 (or whatever number you prefer), and set render Gamma off.
But for a full understanding of all the ramifications, you have to consider color parameters in your lights, too. If your lights are white, and you only modify intensity, not light color, then either way works the same (render vs. shader GC).
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Vestmann posted Mon, 22 March 2010 at 1:11 PM
You're welcome JimmyJohn. Make sure you read up on other VSS threads like these:
VSS Skin Test
This is the original VSS thread by bagginsbill. It's HUGE and it might be a good idea to skim through it although some of the first pages might be outdated because of VSS PR3.
VSS and Transparency with clothes
This thread has some points on using VSS on clothes with transparency (it's several posts down)
VSS and Tattoos
VSS with overlay for tattoos, suds, 2nd skin etc.
There are others as well...
JIMMYJOHN posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 3:21 PM
Hello again.
Another question if you don't mind.
In order to achieve an effect (high contrast) I was told to use overexposure in the V-RAY
Unfortunately, the guy didn't develop.
Does that make sense and how do you do that?
bagginsbill posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 4:04 PM
What's "the V-RAY"?
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JIMMYJOHN posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 4:34 PM
Quote - What's "the V-RAY"?
Sorry, I don't know.
I've asked, now I hope he answers.
FrankT posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 4:48 PM
I'd guess he's talking about the exposure settings in VRay which aren't very applicable to Poser unfortunately.
bagginsbill posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 4:58 PM
The equivalent to an exposure setting in Poser would be to increase/decrease all your light intensities by the same proportion.
For example, suppose you had 3 lights, #1 at 15%, #2 at 40%, #3 at 70%. To double the exposure with a camera would be cut the shutter speed in half, thus doubling the time that the sensor is exposed to light. Effectively, this doubles the light intensities. So just double the light intensities to 30, 80, and 140% respectively.
I made a utility that does this for me in Poser. I have buttons to increase or decrease all light intensities in proportion to each other. I never released it since it used an experimental GUI and server I wrote and the server part doesn't run nicely in Poser 8 or Poser Pro 2010.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
JIMMYJOHN posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 5:43 PM
I get it.
Maybe he was talking about another program.
I'll tell you if he answers.
FrankT posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 6:38 PM
PS - overexposure does not equate to high key (speaking photographically that is)
It's all to do with lighting ratios and whether you expose for the shadows or not.
bagginsbill posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 7:57 PM
OK, but exposing for the shadows while not overexposing the bright areas is what tone mapping does. When tone mapping is enabled, it is impossible to blow the highlights. In fact, it is nearly impossible to reach 255 with tone mapping on, unless you mess with the gain. Which I do.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
JIMMYJOHN posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 8:00 PM
What I m talking about is a pic a guy (girl?) made:
It's his or hers so I m not going to post it without his consent.
Basically a naked model is so lit that the skin is almost white and blending in the also white background.
By contrast, the hair & eyes are very dark and the mouth very red. Very nice effect.
He told me that was done, as I said, by over exposure in V-Ray and very little photoshopping.
Maybe he doesn't want to unveil all his tricks.
I'll keep you informed if (hopefully) he answers.
FrankT posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 8:01 PM
one of these days I'll find a good book about this kind of stuff and actually figure out how the hell to use it (and get a render engine that supports it!)
Was much easier with film :)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 8:45 PM
Like this?
See the Vargas thread: http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24546&highlight=vargas
Or this?
See the Albino thread: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2784202
I put VSS versions of the Vargas and Albino shaders on my web site.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 8:47 PM
Albino[
http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff/random-shaders/VargasVSS-Mats.zip?attredirects=0&d=1](http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff/random-shaders/VargasVSS-Mats.zip?attredirects=0&d=1)
Vargas
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 8:49 PM
The Vargas shader is meant to look non-photoreal. The albino is meant to look real.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
JIMMYJOHN posted Tue, 23 March 2010 at 9:17 PM
Yes!
Exacly like the ace of spades, only maybe with the effect exagerated.
Your free stuff page is a treasure chest!
I had a look at it but I don't know enough about the mat room yet to know what to look for.
And VSS3 is keeping me busy:
I try things and see how it goes but I don't understand how shaders work yet.
Don't know if you've been there but maybe you know what I mean.
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 24 March 2010 at 11:24 AM
I've just found this sticky topic:
Material Room, Nodes & Shaders - Tutorials and Discussions (Bookmarks - Updated)
right up the forum page...
Why is it always harder to see what's just under ones eyes?...
bagginsbill posted Wed, 24 March 2010 at 11:43 AM
Yep. The problem with the thread, though, is the master list of links in the first post are out of date and you have to read the whole thread to find the updated list.
But now we have a Wiki, so I've started building the Wiki page to replace that thread here:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/rrwiki/index.php/Poser_Shader_Threads
There are quite a few new links that need to be added, though.
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JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 24 March 2010 at 5:02 PM
I definitely have to go through those threads.
After a few hours of VERY hard work with MATMATIC, I finally got this result...
(it is supposed to be a Vargas, sorry)
THEN, I read THAT:
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 24 March 2010 at 5:04 PM
JIMMYJOHN posted Wed, 24 March 2010 at 5:06 PM
BTW, I got the answer: V-RAY is a renderer pluggin for 3DSMAX.
