Bonjour Some say yes: the head proportion is not correct Some say it is ok  I just want to know from someone who has some expertise on this( artist anatomy) what do you think about  K4 proportions? For now i just try the free basic one with Poser pro 2010 (see attached file :sorry no cloth for now) I hesitate before buying the bundle Thanks

Oh boy, this thread's gonna get interesting....

Here's what I see (and yes, I've had artistic training AND have had children of my own ;o)):

The head is too large for the body. The shoulders are too broad and should be more sloped as they come down from the neck and head.  Given the size of the torso, the legs are too short. The face is too old looking for the age group that the Kids are supposed to be in (although in all fairness, I HAVE seen some images where the artist was able to make it look a little more appropriate to the age with morphs). Noses in young children are very indistinct. In fact, if you look at a few children who are unrelated to each other, they have similar nose structure. It's not until we grow older that our noses become more sculptured. The nose on the Kids needs to be a little flatter, wider and very rounded. Those are some of the more glaringly obvious things that I've noticed :o).

Laurie

Quote - Noses in young children are very indistinct. In fact, if you look at a few children who are unrelated to each other, they have similar nose structure. It's not until we grow older that our noses become more sculptured.

So ... Jimmie Durante looked like all the other kids?

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Wasn't Pinocchio a kid also? Of course one might say his nose was not an issue until he lied. :laugh:

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Jimmie Durante once said about his own baby picture that "The nose was born and the kid grew on it," LOL!

Quote - > Quote - Noses in young children are very indistinct. In fact, if you look at a few children who are unrelated to each other, they have similar nose structure. It's not until we grow older that our noses become more sculptured.

So ... Jimmie Durante looked like all the other kids?

Naaaah  Jimmy just hung out with Hoagy Carmichael in the school yard.

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Thanks Laurie for your opinion
For me the head is really incorrect  Idem for the shoulder
I think Daz must ajust the body or make morphs for  a correct kid  according real anatomy
and same for conforming products

The P4 children look better than THIS!!!  Yee G-ds, what monstrosity has DAZ come up with now?!?!

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote - Oh boy, this thread's gonna get interesting....

The head is too large for the body. The shoulders are too broad and should be more sloped as they come down from the neck and head.  Given the size of the torso, the legs are too short. The face is too old looking for the age group that the Kids are supposed to be in (although in all fairness, I HAVE seen some images where the artist was able to make it look a little more appropriate to the age with morphs). Noses in young children are very indistinct. In fact, if you look at a few children who are unrelated to each other, they have similar nose structure. It's not until we grow older that our noses become more sculptured. The nose on the Kids needs to be a little flatter, wider and very rounded. Those are some of the more glaringly obvious things that I've noticed :o).

***Ditto, a very Lame attempt for Kid.

---

 Looks like a 12-13 yr old midget. How old is the kid SUPPOSED to be? I haven't heard that yet. For an inappropriately short limbed twelve year old, he looks fine.:laugh:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

I'll keep the version 3 children over these, thanks ;o). They went a little farther toward looking more realistic than these newer versions :o).

@joelglaine: I think they are supposed to be up to 8 years old if I remember correctly. Much too told looking to be as young as 8. They look a lot like scaled down adults with an attempt to adjust eyes and the faces a little bit. They didn't go nearly far enough.

Laurie

In the mean time until I can be sold on getting more then the free stuff body or character wise, one has to assume the updates for XD an WW2 are underway and we will shortly be able to fit the Mil3 kids with more clothes and stuff until the K4 hoopla dies down.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

A child should have a larger head and shorter legs than an adult , and the proportions change as they age and enter puberty.  The Kids promo picture I would have put at maybe 5 or so.

The Toddler is Daz and Carrera only , not for Poser. I would be curious to know what goes wrong with it in Poser.  

I dont have much use for the child models so I have not rushed to look at these.

Quote - A child should have a larger head and shorter legs than an adult , and the proportions change as they age and enter puberty.  The Kids promo picture I would have put at maybe 5 or so.

The Toddler is Daz and Carrera only , not for Poser. I would be curious to know what goes wrong with it in Poser.  

I dont have much use for the child models so I have not rushed to look at these.

Yep, that's true, but not THAT big and not THAT short...lol. Also, the legs are very thick...much thicker than I would expect them to be from a child (not a toddler, but an older child). Maybe it looks way off to me cause both my boys had rather slim, knock-kneed little legs ;o). They were also much thinner across the ribcage and chest with a bit of a round belly.

Laurie

My first impression was that perhaps they were stylized to be more of an anime type figure. I dont know, but since I very seldom actually use content for anything other than curiosity, I wont miss the kids. (wow, just like in real life. :) I really could do without anymore snot nosed brats :laugh:

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

No kids....SOOOO quiet, yes? ;o). For a couple decades I forgot what it was like not to have constant noise...hehe.

Mine fled the nest a few years back now...lol.

I was looking at a pic of my oldest just now at 13 and he looks a lot like that K4 boy looks. Don't quite work...lol. The boy on the left was/is my oldest (now 26) and the one on the left is my youngest at 10 years (now 23). The baby in the center was/is my niece ;o).

It's almost as if the designers of the Kids didn't even look at pics of their own kids to go by. ??

Laurie

 I think they must be single guys trying to remember what children look like on TV or such!:laugh:

That must be it. I got no other answer for it. That's the only logical answer.:lol:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

 I personally think they look strange out of the box, though I've seen a couple of morphs that looked okay.  I'm not into kid art - I'd be more apt to do cartoonish poser characters before children, so they aren't on my list.  

This isn't giving me much hope for V5/M5.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Why are they so creepy-looking? I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

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Funny you should mention creepy looking because I was thinking it'd be great if they were morphed into those miner aliens from Galaxy Quest.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Well, not to be funny but...

I can only imagine what the Baby 4 will be like...  :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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V5/M5?  We haven't seen Stephanie Petite 4 yet!

Quote - V5/M5?  We haven't seen Stephanie Petite 4 yet!

...and I fear the same is coming with her...sigh

Laurie

No offense LaurieA but that family snapshot is gonna make me sleep with the light on tonight

:woot:

 

Quote - V5/M5?  We haven't seen Stephanie Petite 4 yet!

Heck, what about David 4, not to mention the Teens 4, so a Gen5 is way, way off the beaten path, if y'know what I mean.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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Quote - The boy on the left was/is my oldest (now 26) and the one on the left is my youngest at 10 years (now 23).

Laurie has Two Lefts?

I don't think it's possible to generalize about proportions like that. It's not just adults that come in all shapes and sizes.

As for whether the default head looks young enough for the body - maybe not, although I think it's a passable starting point. Does anybody really render defaults? To me, the real issue is how well the mesh handles things to morph the way you want.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Quote - > Quote - The boy on the left was/is my oldest (now 26) and the one on the left is my youngest at 10 years (now 23).

Laurie has Two Lefts?

Well, some people have two left feet, so she has two left.... -whatever!
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

 Daz said in their forums that there will be NO Teens 4. They said it didn't make any sense to make them from an economical view point. They might  beg off of some of the other figures at this point.

I was initially disappointed, but after seeing Kids4, I now could care less. The quality is not what it used to be.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

*"Does anybody really render defaults?"

Yes, I do!  Default Posette's face is beautiful, and one that is often rendered straight out of the box (albeit with my remap she's even more so!).
Ultimately, it's the quality of the texture that's more important than the quality of the model itself.
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Looking at my own kids and then at the DAZ creepies, all I can say is that you will have a hard time finding clothes for the creepies in real life. I'm really wondering if the modelers from DAZ even have a real life and if they are allowed to get out of the office it all. I'm really hoping that the kids of the modelers (if they even have some) don't look like these kids, they will have a hard time at school. I can already hear the other kids wisper and making up names.....

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

The default Kid-4 proportions are ridiculous.

They just "Mini-Me"'d M4, then smoothed his body until there were none details whatsoever left and then topped it of with a watermellon.

Sure, the default faces are somewhat cuter than Matt and Maddie, but that's true for the Freak, too.

I tried to create more realistic "grade schooler" proportions for the Boy that better match the face, but sadly even the slightest scaling breaks the mesh.

I still say the P4 and P5 kids look better!
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote - I still say the P4 and P5 kids look better!
dph

Much better

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote -  Looks like a 12-13 yr old midget. How old is the kid SUPPOSED to be? I haven't heard that yet. For an inappropriately short limbed twelve year old, he looks fine.:laugh:

I believe the Kids are supposed to be 8-10 years old.

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Quote - No offense LaurieA but that family snapshot is gonna make me sleep with the light on tonight

:woot:

 

???

Quote - > Quote - The boy on the left was/is my oldest (now 26) and the one on the left is my youngest at 10 years (now 23).

Laurie has Two Lefts?

LOL...sorry. The oldest is the one on the RIGHT holding my niece ;o).

I do, however, have two left hands, only noticeable while typing ;o).

Laurie

All this hype about the Unimesh and how much versatility it is supposed to give. What stopped them from going all the way and making the Kids4 accept other generation 4 textures and morphs?

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Quote - What stopped them from going all the way and making the Kids4 accept other generation 4 textures and morphs?

Money, probably.

So far I've only downloaded the free base package, but it looks like the texture mapping, while different, is not hugely so. When I get time I'll have a go at making some Photoshop actions to adapt V4 textures to Kids 4.

---

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

 They have different UV mapping? From which one? M4 which has one UV map or V4 which has a different UV map? Or from all of the above?

That ONE FACT mean they aren't Unimesh!

Freak,SP3,David,M3,A3, H3,V3,Luke,Laura,Mat,Maddie, and the Mil3 baby ALL had the same UV mapping so they all could swap textures. Only M3 and Freak had different mesh, but all the rest could share morphs.

If they cannot share UV mapping OR morphs, that means DAZ is either lying or is stupid. If it is NOT ONE MESH, it is not a UNIMESH!  Good lord. What were they thinking. They ALL should share the UV maps! Heck, they could have hired Mister Hoadley to do that! :laugh:

Sad to see that the Mil 3 were almost one mesh, and the Mil4 are just BS publicity with no fact checking. I think I'll spend my money elsewhere. Sad to see DAZ slip so much. I am disappointed after being a big fan for years.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Quote - > Quote -  Looks like a 12-13 yr old midget. How old is the kid SUPPOSED to be? I haven't heard that yet. For an inappropriately short limbed twelve year old, he looks fine.:laugh:

I believe the Kids are supposed to be 8-10 years old.

From the packs that come with them, I'm thinking younger, like 6 to 7, 8 on the high end. For me, the design feels like an adult head squished down on a sorta/kinda kid's body. The eyes are just... well, as one poster put it, creepy.

Definitely not their best work. M4 looked amazing, a huge turn around IMHO. The kids just put the bar waaaaaay back down.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I had the package in my shopping cart at Daz, but after reading all of this, I deleted it.

Believeable3d wrote:
"I don't think it's possible to generalize about proportions like that. It's not just adults that come in all shapes and sizes."

I agree, and assuming DAZ thinks the same way, it makes it rather strange that there are only four body morphs in the Kids 4 Morph++ pack (compared to 203 Head morphs); namely Navel, Nipples, Thin and Heavy. (Chibi seems to be same as Thin?). There is also Realistic in the Base but that is... well, not very realistic.
"Thin" is actually mostly "sunken abdomen" and Heavy is as you would expect; fat.
There are some morphforms which are useful but where are all the limb adjustments, the toe curls etc. etc. The default bum is a bubble butt to say the least. So, where is the Glute size morph.
Sigh... DAZ... the K4 Morph++ package is sadly lacking.

They are really bad modelled when it comes to the matter of realism in all aspects.
Who the --- did such crappy work?
It´s even possible to achieve better results with V4!

According to Daz they're a huge hit, LOL!

Quote - According to Daz they're a huge hit, LOL!

Well, it's Daz and it's true enough that a lot of people are ready and willing to open up their wallets because its, um, Daz....lol.

I think Daz works-in-progress should go through a vetting process much like Antonia and Brad have here...they show what they've got, people make suggestions on what to fix, they fix, they resubmit and so on... Each time the figure gets better.

Never gonna happen...lmao.

Laurie

In the promo pic for the Kids 4 Base,the boy's face looks like young Ted Kennedy; not a boy Ted Kennedy, but a young man...

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Quote - > Quote - V5/M5?  We haven't seen Stephanie Petite 4 yet!

...and I fear the same is coming with her...sigh

Laurie

What Laurie said. 

Since it is very likely that the people who were responsible for V4/M4/K4 will also be doing the 5s, unless they get their act together...

The D5s are doomed.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Someone in the Poser community will just have to pick up the slack, cause I dont see Daz dropping the ridiculous single axis scaling crap.  So expect the same from now on.

And......... if.......... the CP vendors would actually try to support a non Daz or SM figure (unlikely) Poser could have its own stable of great figures. It also takes Poser content users to be willing to purchase a non Daz figure.  Just sayin.

While I admit that the Kids 4 are not perfect, to me there is no question that they are the best child figures on the market.  The poser 4 and 5 kids are better?  As if - have you looked at the Poser 4 boy lately?  There is no way that he even is in the same room where it comes to looking realistic.  Even the most recent Poser boy - Ben - apart from the fact that he's ugly, he doesn't pose worth a crap without getting distorted.
K4 isn't perfect - I wish there were more morphs for one thing - but there are some major improvements from Matt and Maddie.  I used Matt a lot, but the fact was he had no neck.  Over time, people (like Tim Polemar) had made things that improved the Gen 3 preschoolers - I've no doubt that the same thing will happen here.
My first thought was that the Kid 4's head was too big - until I overlaid it on top of a photo of my real life 7yo nephew - whose head was even BIGGER by proportion.  Granted, my nephew has a big head, but not freakishly so - K4 is well within the normal range head size for a kid that age.
I mean the other thing - K4 is free - it's not like you are being charged for it.  But more to the point; is anyone else going to make a kid figure?  I'd support one because I use a lot of kids in my renders, but I don't see anyone working on one.  DAZ is far from perfect, but they have been far more accomidating to those of us who like rendering kids than anyone else has.  I don't think it's a big money-maker for them, either - though I think this set may have better support and sales for products than the last one.
I just don't get why everyone sounds so indignant or insulted about the issue.  Show me something better and I'll hop on board.

Tell me enough lies and I might just get indignant.

@Treasurer_and_Battle:

I don't think it's that people are getting indignant so much about what the kids look like (although to me, they don't look nearly as close to real children as the Gen3 kids did), but that they don't fully support Poser. After Freak 4 and now this, it's like a slap in the face for Poser-only users since without them, Daz would have been a memory not long after they and Zygote split. Personally, I really don't care one way or the other since I hardly use Daz figures at all anymore - since the version 4's came out, I find them glitchy, ugly and harder to use than ever with the gazillion injections and the initializations that don't always take, etc, etc. But for those of you with Daz in your eyes that want to keep on buying everything they release, knock yourselves out...lol. Maybe it's you folks that Daz are counting on to switch to Daz Studio just so you can use their figures. I won't be one of them. I just like my Poser too much ;o).

Laurie

Treasurer_and_Battle:
How much is DAZ paying you to be their font man, since this is the 1st time I've ever seen you in the Forum here?  I only ask because you genuinely sound like you have vested interest in the K4's success.  To me that speaks money!
As with Posette, all it will take to get the P4 kids to look good is texture!  As for P4 figure posing, well most people don't know how to pose worth a gosh-darn, so of course they pose like crud!  Dr Geep though knows how to get good results with them, and so do I!
dph**

**

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Sheesh, DAZ isn't paying me a darn thing.  I have posted here on occasion - honestly, its usually when I find a technical problem I can't solve in Poser as people here are so helpful in that regard.   I like the Kid figures - if you look at my gallery here at Rendo, you'll see that they are mostly what I render.  The only vested interest I have in the Kids is that I want them to have lots of support - more products for me to use in my renders.  I know you are a fan of the Poser 4 figures, but I find newer releases to be far better.
I tried very hard to get use out of Ben as he falls in the midrange of ages between Matt and Luke, but his shoulders are just so bad.
Frankly, I find the strong emotion that some have posted with regard the Kids 4 seems over the top.  I mean, first of all, they are free.  Second of all, I don't see anyone else trying to do something with the Kids - Poser 8 had a new man and woman, but no new kids. 

Oh, **dphoadley, you are Israeli, right?  Go check out the newest pic I posted today in my gallery - I think you might like it.  I hope so, anyway - I put a lot of feeling into it.
**

Don't listen to dp....he's still stuck in the 3D stone age ;o).

If I could scale K4 to the size of Will (using Poser), I would be happy. But even with the morphs I can't do it, tried it, and I can't do it. By using Geep Scale K4 is a little over 3ft, for an 8 to 10 year old that seems very short.

Sir, if I have wronged you, or done you a disservice, then I apologize!  After all, if a person is a lover of Israel, then he must have some good stuff in him! I have added both yourself and your render to my favorites.
The reason for my post in the 1st place, is that any time a vendor came out with a rival figure to one of the DAZ ones, there was always one person here in the forums in more vociferous than the rest in his opposition.  The fight over Dina V is the one I remember the most.  Dina V was killed in the bud by Daz Agents provacateaurs here in the Forum.  And I kept asking myself, 'Why are they so incensed?!'  That kind of emotion just doesn't spring forth for no reason!  My only conclusion was that they must be on someones payroll.

Anyway, again, if I have wronged you, then I apologize!
Yours truly,
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

The top age for K4 is 8 :)

K4 is supposed to be 4-8 with the Toddler taking him a bit lower.  I don't know why that the younger age is more popular than the 8-12 age (which I wish there was a decent option for).  I've seen a couple of young M4 morphs that seem promising, but still nothing quite there yet.

A render of K4 Boy, no scaling no Morphs, Realy I'm Trying to like Them. By the way shirt is for Toon Sam, imported as a Prop and used in cloth room.

LaurieA, beware of my digital 3d flint Axe!
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

DP, no problem.  I assure you, I'm on no one's payroll.  Were there another kid figure, I'd probably be supporting them as well - the more the better because there is not a lot of choice in this area.

I describe myself as the world's only Bahamian Zionist - in fact, I'm a Christian by faith, but my great-grandfather was Jewish.  His last name was Solomon, if you please - can't get any more Jewish than that!

Not that it's worth the trouble, personally, but has anyone scaled any of the newest figures in Daz Studio and exported as a cr2?  I'm wondering if that would allow the scaled figure to function in Poser. 

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Sorry, not a frequent poster on this forum either, but I do read from time to time... Came here this time looking for reactions to the fact that DAZ have obviously lost interest in supporting Poser. It was bad enough with the other generation 4 figures, but Kids4 really take the cake!

As a Poser user since version 3, I don't like DAZ Studio - don't like the UI, don't like the renderer, don't like the lighting etc. etc. and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be forced to use that application! So effectively, my support for DAZ figures ends here.

Poser 6 figures had real potential and were the best supported since Posette. But not enough to compete with DAZ. I'm truly sorry that the Poser developers chose to replace them rather than improve them. Otherwise Poser users might have been in a better position at this time.

Quote - But for those of you with Daz in your eyes that want to keep on buying everything they release, knock yourselves out...lol. Maybe it's you folks that Daz are counting on to switch to Daz Studio just so you can use their figures.
Laurie

I Disagree,
I dont think the DAZ business model ever included  any real
expectation of getting poser users to switch en mass.
and it seems more likely that poser support is being phased out .
Its all about Economics at this point  and if cross app compatibility
is no longer viable ( by DAZ's estimation) then poser support will/should end.
IMHO

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Here's what everyone can do......  go here: www.facebook.com/DAZ3D.FanPage/posts/114841858542631 and let DAZ know you really are unhappy with these kids. Let's beat this wowers & fans by telling DAZ they should have do a better job and not also not ignore Poser users.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

To the poster who said these are a wild success... te base figures are free. We love free things, so of course there's going to be plenty of downloads for the base.

To the poster who caveled about the P4 children... like so many other things, we want it all handed to us, instead of actually going in and working with it. We want paint by numbers when Poser gives us a blank canvas to find our own art. Sorry if this sounds self-congratulatory, but I did some kick-ass stuff with the P4 guy that pushed him up to a level equaling M2. The same thng could be done with any of the figures that come with the software, but most users dont want to spend the time actually delving into a figure to make it their own. I'd posit that, in the right hands, even the P4kids could be made better than the K4s. But you havwe to be willing to invest the time.

As for DAZ itself, yes, it used to really grate on me that we made them the only game in town, with a particular emphasis on Barbie Showgirl. But nowadays I rarely do anything in Poser that isnt toon based, so, to be blunt, I dont really care anymore what DAZ does or does not do. I think the direction they're going in verges on the flat out ugly for the female meshes -- A4 and the Girl4 are nothing compared to their predecessors -- but M4, as I already noted, was a huge improvement. So IMHO it's a curious phenomenom over there, with -- for once in the company's history -- men who are far hotter than the women would ever be. And now with these pretty weird kids... well, it just confirms my view that DAZ is finding its own style, and the style aint pretty.

Just my 0.02. YRMV.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Ah, and the toddler not working in Poser?

A harbinger of things to come, folks. And kindly remember that I called that one over a year ago. DAZ is going to pull more and more away from Poser support, and you can see the Toddler as a trial balloon to weight the community's reaction.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I only use DAZ Studio, so I can't really comment on how the mil4 kid works in poser. But I don't think that DAZ are trying to move away from its poser customer base. I know some people have said they have had problems with the M4K in poser but a lot of others have said they have had no problem.
Personally I prefer this to the M3 kids. I think some of the morphs on sale are really good and  am sure that there will be more that are better and better.

Quote - > Quote - But for those of you with Daz in your eyes that want to keep on buying everything they release, knock yourselves out...lol. Maybe it's you folks that Daz are counting on to switch to Daz Studio just so you can use their figures.

Laurie

I Disagree,
I dont think the DAZ business model ever included  any real
expectation of getting poser users to switch en mass.
and it seems more likely that poser support is being phased out .
Its all about Economics at this point  and if cross app compatibility
is no longer viable ( by DAZ's estimation) then poser support will/should end.
IMHO

Hmmm....I keep hearing that word. Economics. I would think that it would be economical to make their figures Poser compatible since that is, for the moment, still the larger chunk of their market. So, if it's a matter of economics, then it's economical suicide to phase out Poser compatibility.

Laurie

 "it's economical suicide to phase out Poser compatibility."

I have to agree with that. Poser is a huge part of the 3D market now. Used to be almost invisible, but now, I see poser-use everywhere. I saw James on Good Morning America just a day ago. The whole industry may not be measured huge by world standards, but it lets lots of people make a living on something most people regard as a hobby.

I can see why DAZ might want to break out with their own thing, but eliminating the reason WHY they are a successful Poser Business is not a viable business decision  Poser content is what they make. Also it's what made THEM. If they don't make poser content, then what are they?

If they keep this up, a model of a failed business.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

That's why I'm thinking the Toddler is a trial balloon. They want to see how far they can push it. If the Toddler moves without much grief from the Poser community, we'll probably see more and more DAZ only stuff.

And after all, why not? They've invested a ton of cash into Studio, and they certainly want to see a return on that investment rather than play second fiddle to Poser all the time.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Really, guys - DAZ sells content, that's where their money is.  They are not going to try and drive off any portion of their market - what would be the point?  They only developed Studio because at the time, they were not sure if Poser was going to have a future and they wanted to make sure there was a fallback.  Plus, having an entry level program that is free is a good way to bring in new customers to the hobby.
There is no evil plot with the toddler - it was a last minute addition and when it was clear that it couldn't work in Poser, they gave it away as a weekly freebie.

Quote - That's why I'm thinking the Toddler is a trial balloon. They want to see how far they can push it. If the Toddler moves without much grief from the Poser community, we'll probably see more and more DAZ only stuff.

And after all, why not? They've invested a ton of cash into Studio, and they certainly want to see a return on that investment rather than play second fiddle to Poser all the time.

Presenting the perfect opportunity for some industrious person or persons to come in and fill the gap ;o).

Laurie

Forget the toddler - what I'd really like to see is a decent baby.

> Quote - The top age for K4 is 8 :)

I just posted this in an other thread:
"....
It is a small child of no more than 4 years. There are no morphs (or other cr2s) included to depict other ages like a 6 or 8 year old child. These would have so very different proportions all over, you can't just scale them. Somehow I had expected to get just that, children from about 4 to about 8 years old. Dumb old me.

So, if you need a Kindergartenchild, the Kid4 maybe right. But I won't try to send it to school, it maybe get laughed at and suffer severe personality damages. ;)
....."

The image shows the K4 and the included Toddler morph. I found no way (with the included morphs from the mophs ++ pack)  to make the K4 looking like an 8 year old child.

>> "They only developed Studio because at the time, they were not sure if Poser was going to have a future and they wanted to make sure there was a fallback. "

Yes, but now they've started riding that horse and it's halfway across the river.

And the genesis of Studio is a tad more complex than just having a fallback. Ask those of us who were around for it about the Face Room story. It might not have spurred Studio's development, but it sure pushed it further down the road.

>> "Plus, having an entry level program that is free is a good way to bring in new customers to the hobby."

That would be fine if Studio and Poser shared all resources. But it doesnt work that way. Yes, the cr2s can go from one to another, but lights? Shaders? Animation? All very different.

But that's how you roll with business. Create a flagship model that the community supports almost unquestioningly. Build a software that's close, but not quite close enough, to one that everyone already uses. Make a lot of these resources free so people will go with it in droves.

What's the next logical step in this progression?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Sometimes I think it wouldn't really be a bad idea if Daz would stop supporting Poser. Let me explain my reasoning here...

If Daz stops supporting Poser, it doesn't mean that Poser users are going to just up and start using Daz Studio. Some will perhaps, but most of us will not. And that represents a prime opportunity for some who might see the empty void and fill it. I'd like to see something new by someone new. There are so many ultra-talented people in this community that it's bound to happen. And when it does, it will be something of quality, of that I'm sure. So maybe it's a good thing ;o).

Laurie

SeanMartin, that would assume that DAZ primary interest is in selling the software - it looks clear to me that their main revenue stream is from content.  This is just a guess - I have know inside knowledge - but I suspect Studio only breaks even on what they have to pay their programers to create it.  Their main revenue stream has to be content and there is no motive for cutting off any portion of that market.

Correction: I didn't want my previous post to sound like Daz is about to stop supporting Poser. As far as I know, they have no intentions of doing that at this point in time. Just wanted to clarify. I was just musing ;o).

Laurie

 Dumping poser support would be Unwise for DAZ. After seeing the banking melt down of the last few years however, Business and wisdom do NOT go hand in hand.

If the Mil4 toddler is a trial balloon, I hope it gets shot down with extreme prejudice for all sakes involved.:laugh: What an image. LOL

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Quote -  Dumping poser support would be Unwise for DAZ. After seeing the banking melt down of the last few years however, Business and wisdom do NOT go hand in hand.

If the Mil4 toddler is a trial balloon, I hope it gets shot down with extreme prejudice for all sakes involved.:laugh: What an image. LOL

I'm not worried anymore, feels good. They cant dump me cause I've dumped them. 

I really hope we do see something new by someone new, a one horse race is unhealthy.

Actually, that pic by Niles a few posts back looks kinda cute ;o). If I could change the nose and make the legs and arms a bit thinner, he'd be doable. Actually, I'd have no problem fixing the nose and face by myself since I don't do too bad with the morph tool. It's everything else that worries me.

Laurie

>> "SeanMartin, that would assume that DAZ primary interest is in selling the software - it looks clear to me that their main revenue stream is from content."

For the moment. DAZ has always wanted to make the leap into the Big Time with Maya and StudioMax and disassociate itself from the hobbyist market that is Poser. The content sales underwrote the software development, but I've noticed we've not seen a major plug in for Studio since Animator (or whatever it's called). I dont know quite what might mean business-wise, but there you are anyway. But they have engineered almost everything to go through Studio, even requiring its installation with other programs, regardless of whether or not the user wanted it or it was even necessary for that outside program to run -- I asked for two years why it was necessary to install DS when I went to Bryce 6, and I never got a straight answer. That to me suggests they were pushing hard, anyway they could, for Studio support.

Maybe it didnt pan out like they hoped. Maybe the plug ins werent the sellers they hoped they would be. Or maybe they've decided not to pursue the goal of being the next Big Three D thing. Who knows what's going on at Draper these days.

As I said at the beginning, I no longer care what they do. I buy the occasional prop from AntFarm, and that's about it.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

 From a friend of mine, who does a LOT of rigging in Poser, the DAS studio set-up tools are a plug-in worth the price. Since he got Poser 8 I didn't think they might be better or worse, but he says the DAZ tools are still mostly superior. Maybe by Poser 9 they will be superior.  So, as much as I do NOT like Studio, they have come out with some good tools for it.

That doesn't mean I like it or would do ANYTHING to support it. If people want to use it, fine. I just prefer Poser. I just wish DAZ would see the forest for the trees and go for compatibility, instead of trying to come up with the "NEXT BIG THING".

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Quote - Sometimes I think it wouldn't really be a bad idea if Daz would stop supporting Poser. Let me explain my reasoning here...

If Daz stops supporting Poser, it doesn't mean that Poser users are going to just up and start using Daz Studio. Some will perhaps, but most of us will not. And that represents a prime opportunity for some who might see the empty void and fill it. I'd like to see something new by someone new. There are so many ultra-talented people in this community that it's bound to happen. And when it does, it will be something of quality, of that I'm sure. So maybe it's a good thing ;o).

Laurie

I've been thinking along the same lines. It wouldn't be a bad thing at all, it would set some creativity free again, something DAZ (and a lot of it's vendors) have lost. DAZ seems be stuck and I wouldn't mind if they would abandon Poser altogether, I'm sure someone (or a lot of someones) will fill up the gap and bring the fun back to poser. DAZ is dominating the market too much and it sure isn't unleasing creativity, it's the same old over and over again. I'm really hoping for something new outside of DAZ to happen.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I have to agree with aeilkema and LaurieA:

I really believe it would do the whole Poser community a world of good if daz butted out. Let us go in new directions.

***Let my people go, throw off the yoke of slavery to daz. *** :laugh:

But... but... who's going to provide our impractical armour? Our swords? Our temples?

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!

Oh wait, that's what this thread is about. Never mind.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Actually DAZ might be doing Poser a very big favor by dropping support for Poser versions before P8.  It might give the vendors better opportunity to develop products for what is Poser current and force old time users to upgrade.  The big angle here, will DAZ vendors entirely switch to exclusive DAZStudio support or will they exit in droves if they revenues dwindle.

Think of it...how many technical aspects (and workaround hacks) in Poser have been discovered by the good people of Daz? Not many. Most if not all have been discovered by folks in the community. Easy pose, geometry switching, MAT pose files to name a few...

There are a lot of great minds among those who use Poser, a lot of talent. If there's just one place making all the figures that get used by the greatest number of people, then the technology is driven by them and only them. Even if a newer, easier way is discovered and Daz doesn't conform to it, the newest ideas die right there just by virtue of Daz's popularity. It's not anyone's fault, it's just the way things are. But look at some of the vendors who release products to fix the Daz figures joints for instance? Daz never fixes them themselves. An extra product must be purchased to fix something that should have been addressed long ago with successive upgrades (I've noticed the joint peculiarities still exist in the kids). It's time for a change perhaps ;o).

Laurie

I wonder about the vendors too. Will they only support figures that only work in daz? I dont know, I do know it doesn't have to be that way . Look at Antonia, she scales perfectly fine in d/s or Poser. So both apps are still supported by her.

the kids were designed to be aged 4-8 and can push up to 12. they were designed to be morphed. which means they were built to have a neutral look about them which is why they look like they do in the promo images. if they were perfect then there would be no need for 3rd party artists to generate morphs or keep the market going. people here need to look a little deeper into whats goin on. i for one think that maddie was a horrible looking child. not at all realistic and it seems that no matter what was done to make her look more realistic... never quite cut it. with the new kids 4 after using it for 3 days (not judging it from promo images) i can see that with the morphs++ that were made available gives the user greater control of the model more so than the maddie morphs. also they didnt over do it with the body morphs which means people who are planning to create characters for this model for free or for sale they have room to be creative.

i just wish the leader in the daz bashing of this great product would buy it for herself before posting negative remarks about the model before posting.

i for one think the kids 4 have great potential and we will see many great creations for it as time allows.

thank you.

Quote - the kids were designed to be aged 4-8 and can push up to 12. they were designed to be morphed. which means they were built to have a neutral look about them which is why they look like they do in the promo images. if they were perfect then there would be no need for 3rd party artists to generate morphs or keep the market going. people here need to look a little deeper into whats goin on. i for one think that maddie was a horrible looking child. not at all realistic and it seems that no matter what was done to make her look more realistic... never quite cut it. with the new kids 4 after using it for 3 days (not judging it from promo images) i can see that with the morphs++ that were made available gives the user greater control of the model more so than the maddie morphs. also they didnt over do it with the body morphs which means people who are planning to create characters for this model for free or for sale they have room to be creative.

i just wish the leader in the daz bashing of this great product would buy it for herself before posting negative remarks about the model before posting.

i for one think the kids 4 have great potential and we will see many great creations for it as time allows.

thank you.

Can you post example of 10 or 12 yr old, Please?
I have them and the morphs, but I 'm not having much luck with them.
They have plenty of head morphs and I like the teeth, but there is so few body morphs.
Thanks
Note * I'm using Poser 7 and 8

Quote - I wonder about the vendors too. Will they only support figures that only work in daz? I dont know, I do know it doesn't have to be that way . Look at Antonia, she scales perfectly fine in d/s or Poser. So both apps are still supported by her.

Actually, she doesn't (just tried it). Neither do any of the SM figures, Jessi, james, G2's or any other I tried. Everyone can easily test this for themselves, it is most obvious on any figure's neck.

Tilt the head down, tilt the neck down so the figure is in a deep nod. Select the neck, Y axis (length) and scale it up or down. At some point any figure will start looking broken and disjointed.

All poser figures I ever encountered that use bendable joints encounter this. it is due to single axis scaling dfistortions due to JP parameter inability to account for non uniform scaling.
It's a limitation of somewhat archaic poser rigging.  Joint moves with it's JP zones, and the mesh parts taht are inside JP bend zones before scaling are now outside.

To make it work with current rigging system, one would have to anticipate Z Scaling and make a whole array of ERC'd JP adjustments and JCM's for each joint. That would be a humongous undertaking. Not to mention very cost prohibitive to make a figure like that, and especially clothing for it.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Any conceivable option will look broken is you turn a dial far enough. With Apollo it is possible to combine scaling with "taper" and morphs to achieve an incredible range of transformations in Poser. Granted, not everyone is a genius, but this sort of stuff is possible in Poser and even profitable if a creator has the skill and the talent. 

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

 Apollo, Antonia, and Brad scale wonderfully. The Kids4 do not.. Most of the morphforms for the kids just do not work in poser. The only conclusion possible is they weren't intended for Poser or are just badly built figures. DAZ has built plenty of good figures in the past, but they didn't with this new figure. Sad, but true.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Quote -  Apollo, Antonia, and Brad scale wonderfully. The Kids4 do not.. Most of the morphforms for the kids just do not work in poser. The only conclusion possible is they weren't intended for Poser or are just badly built figures. DAZ has built plenty of good figures in the past, but they didn't with this new figure. Sad, but true.

I think you need to actually do some hands on apples to apples comparison similar to the one here:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=137495&start=200
before making more claims of that nature.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

 The kids don't work worth a diddly in poser and are not made to. The other figures DO work really well because people made them to. Doesn't get simpler than that. If the kids 4 were intended for poser, they'd be badly built by that definition. I could really use Kids 4, but I'm not investing in DAZ studio to get them to work, so they are useless to me.

Poser figures that work IN poser IS apples to apples, IMO.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

 quote by seanmartin "ou can see the Toddler as a trial balloon to weight the community's reaction."

Then what was Freak 4??  He didn't exactly work well in poser either!  he was the thin edge of the wedge.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Quote - the kids were designed to be aged 4-8 and can push up to 12. they were designed to be morphed. which means they were built to have a neutral look about them which is why they look like they do in the promo images. if they were perfect then there would be no need for 3rd party artists to generate morphs or keep the market going. people here need to look a little deeper into whats goin on. i for one think that maddie was a horrible looking child. not at all realistic and it seems that no matter what was done to make her look more realistic... never quite cut it. with the new kids 4 after using it for 3 days (not judging it from promo images) i can see that with the morphs++ that were made available gives the user greater control of the model more so than the maddie morphs. also they didnt over do it with the body morphs which means people who are planning to create characters for this model for free or for sale they have room to be creative.

plazmaks, your argument seems to be self contradictory. On the one hand you claim that the high number of head morphs gives the user greater control but a low number of body morphs means people have room to be creative. Think about reversing the situation. Would a lower number of head morphs allow more creativity?
I have no idea why DAZ decided to put so few body morphs into the Kids4 Morph++ pakage, but it seriously limits the flexibility of the K4 figure for the normal user. I accept that professional morphers would make their own morphs anyway (for copyright reasons, if nothing else), but the K4 figure was not marketed as a figure for developers only.
Personally I feel very disappointed that DAZ has not provided the flexibility found in V4 and M4 in the K4 figure.

Quote - > Quote - the kids were designed to be aged 4-8 and can push up to 12. they were designed to be morphed. which means they were built to have a neutral look about them which is why they look like they do in the promo images. if they were perfect then there would be no need for 3rd party artists to generate morphs or keep the market going. people here need to look a little deeper into whats goin on. i for one think that maddie was a horrible looking child. not at all realistic and it seems that no matter what was done to make her look more realistic... never quite cut it. with the new kids 4 after using it for 3 days (not judging it from promo images) i can see that with the morphs++ that were made available gives the user greater control of the model more so than the maddie morphs. also they didnt over do it with the body morphs which means people who are planning to create characters for this model for free or for sale they have room to be creative.

plazmaks, your argument seems to be self contradictory. On the one hand you claim that the high number of head morphs gives the user greater control but a low number of body morphs means people have room to be creative. Think about reversing the situation. Would a lower number of head morphs allow more creativity?
I have no idea why DAZ decided to put so few body morphs into the Kids4 Morph++ pakage, but it seriously limits the flexibility of the K4 figure for the normal user. I accept that professional morphers would make their own morphs anyway (for copyright reasons, if nothing else), but the K4 figure was not marketed as a figure for developers only.
Personally I feel very disappointed that DAZ has not provided the flexibility found in V4 and M4 in the K4 figure.

issac first off let me say that i personally am a big fan of your work. and i agree with your statements about the average user. however we all begin somewhere with this. most as hobbyists etc. i for one began doin this as an alternative to sketching for murals and other large works. i found poser by accident back when poser 3 was still around. its taken me a long time to learn how to do most things and understand exactly what it was i was doin. i still consider myself a novice mainly because ive relied upon tutorials and the hardwork of other more professional character makers and modeling artists. all i meant by my post was that with the k3 head morphs being the same as v4 u do have the flexability to dial in head morphs for most personal renders. these days ive seen a growing trend in 3rd party head morphs being created in programs such as zbrush and hexagon. which i believe some of our normal users will pick this up too in time. the low number of body morphs is disappointing to the normal users... but that again leaves room for others like yourself who have made wonderful body morphs for users( particular your preteen morphs for v4) i think that there will be a great assortment for body morphs for the k4.  ok my add is kicking in i apologize lol.... starting to stray here.  so im goin to wrap this up and agree about the scaling issues and seam breaks are a big disappointment for the k4 because i agree at this point in time after such along history in modeling daz should have been able to release this package without those issues. But were talking about a company that exists to provide content to users whos ultimate goal is money. a quick buck. kinda like AE games when they ruin good games to get them out for sales before they are ready. anyway someone asked me to post a picture of a 12yr old version of the kids.  have seen some over on the daz forums but ill give it a shot here in a minute and see if i can have some success. but again respect!

give it some time. the ball is in Daz's court. they can provide updates to correct some of the issues. which i think might be possible such as they did with v4 only later to produce v4.2. give it some time i think everyone who uses the kid4 will be satisfied down the road.

Ah plazmaks you ol' smoothie, flattery will get you everywhere!
Thanks for your comments on V4PT, but I must say that I consider myself to be very much an amateur.
It is true that I'm already playing around with some body morphs for K4, but whether they will ever come to anything, I don't know.

I would be impressed if anyone can make K4 look like a real 12 year old, as I suspect that the rigging does not leand itself to those body proportions; but I look forward to being disproved :)

I hope you're right that in the not too distant fuyure either DAZ or a good modeller will release some body morphs for K4; the default is far too stocky and dwarf-like.

I would like to refer this post to anyone interested in applying V4 morphs to a hybrid K4.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2799616

I've yet to see a child figure from any Poser supplier that hasn't suffered from seriously distorted anatomical proportions. Ben's head and hands are far, far too large. All Daz juvenile releases also appear to be cursed with some sort of hydrocephaly and ridiculously hunched macaroni syndrome shoulders with a side order of flaccid  noodle neck. Except for the poor Milbaby, who seems to have been born with only one cervical vertebra.
And to be brutally honest, they're all butt ugly as well.

 aren't all babies born with one cervical vertebra look?

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

 Actually, we're all born with more bones than get used later on in life. They then fuse together. With the mil baby, that seems to have already happened. :laugh: Actually all Poser figures have only ONE bone in their necks.

Except for M2 and V2 which had TWO. Some other ones might have two, but I do not remember them.

:lol:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

 "Actually, we're all born with more bones than get used later on in life." if u count cartilage.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Quote -  The kids don't work worth a diddly in poser and are not made to.

Like I said, post some pics as proof, rather then going by distorted hear-say.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

 Love to. However since the morphs they came with DO NOT WORK, I got nothing to show. "Realistic, Male and Female" do nothing. They do not function. They are installed, updated and initilized, but don't work. If I had paid for them, I'd be demanding my money back.

If they had actually worked, I would not have complained.

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

I wish everybody would post pictures to justify their various arguments. It's hard to know what to think without being able to see what you are all talking about :)

BTW, the Realistic, Male and Female morphs work in my P7? They don't do very much, but they do work...

911-69.blogspot.co.uk/

Quote -  Love to. However since the morphs they came with DO NOT WORK, I got nothing to show. "Realistic, Male and Female" do nothing. They do not function. They are installed, updated and initilized, but don't work. If I had paid for them, I'd be demanding my money back.

If they had actually worked, I would not have complained.

We were talking about joint bending after single axis scaling, when I asked you to post pics. That has nothing to do wioth morphs. Let's stick to one claim at the time.  I gave you instructions on how to test bending, and link to proof pictures.
Now it's your turn to prove it wrong by posting your pictures, of the same thing, with figures that you are bringing up. Scroll up, look at the link, see how the pics were done, and do the same thing, I want to see how you're going to get different results (ones to substantiate your claims) doing the same thing.

Easy peasy, no rendering needed, no morphs needed, all figures we're talking about are free. Simple thing to post pics that substantiate your claims.
Here's that link again: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=137495&start=200
Someone else made the pics, so I can't copy them over here, but I tried it for myself, and get the same result.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Here's a pic of antonia in the same pose, with non uniform Y scaling on her nec. Same thing happens that Happens on Kids, M3, M4, jessi, James, G2 figures, Apollo and every other figure I tried.

This is a screenshot of Antonia in Poser Pro 2010.
neck and head nodding forward, Y scale at around 150%

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

:: sigh ::

Well, FWIW, it looks like we're caught in that classic DAZ situation. They put something up, and it's up to the community to make something of it. How many times have we seen that, guys? Seriously, I've never found the DAZ original versions, when it comes to facial morphs or body borphs, to be all that worthhwile (with the exception of H3 and M4, who have their own distinct issues). Then someone will tear it apart and do what DAZ should have done before release, rather than giving us... well, to be blunt, the skanky looking variants on V4 and now the Children of the Corn.

And I find it bewildering that we're willing to invest that kind of time and energy into this one company when we have all these other models at our disposal, all very free, long before DAZ jumped on the "BASE FIGURES FOR FREE!" bandwagon. We'll ignore them, but we'll lavish attention on the horror story that is the basic Aiko4 (and let's be frank: she is a horror -- that's not a matter of taste; she just is, period).

And we've doing this for years, with it being very unlikely to stop.

I mean, really, why is this? Do the users really consider Barbie Showgirl "pretty" out of the box? Or are we just so used to "business as usual" that it's impossible to think otherwise? Do you just shrug your collective shoulders and say, "Well, okay, not much to look at, but someone will come along and fix it!" with all the optimism of Pippi Longstocking? Laurie mentioned earlier that, should DAZ minimize its Poser support, someone else might step in and fill the gap... but honestly, would there be any point? The community has blindly supported DAZ for years, despite all the headaches, the gross release errors, and the (to me anyway) mounting evidence that they need to give this stuff away to keep their market share. They are more and more dependent on their outside content providers to keep the money coming in, rather than generating content of worth themselves.

What's going on? Can anyone explain this? I just dont understand the business model at work here.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

It could be that they are too busy with the software end of the business than the modeling end. I'm not saying that to be ignorant, I'm just saying that could be the reason. I don't know...lol. The brokerage pulls in money without them having to make an effort other than the original figure. I'm not saying that's a bad business model. I'm just saying that could very well be the reason. They have their fingers in a lot more pies now than they used to ;o). Things change and so does Daz too, just like everything else...

Change isn't always better, but that's what happens sometimes ;o). And 'better' is totally subjective depending on the side you favor ;o).

Laurie

Just for the sake of balance and fairness, I have to back up Connie here - there clearly is an issue with joint bending after applying single axis scaling in Poser. As far as I 'm  aware this is a fairly well known Poser issue as well.
Whether or not there are other factors at play with the scaling on the Kids I don't know (I've not really looked at them). It seems this is going to be an issue with future figures though.
As for who's responsibility it is to fix what...it's a kinda six-of-one etc - If Daz are knowingly creating figures that arn't really compatible with Poser then IMO it's arguable that they should make that clear at point of sale (perhaps they are).  On the oher hand, it seems like it'd be useful for SM to take a look at the scaling/bending issues in Poser regardless of anything Daz is producing.

I think another factor gradually coming into play over the last 3 or 4 years is related to improvements of the features in the various apps we use. We're really starting to expect a new level of realism in figures now that we have the ability to do stuff like global lighting etc. Meshes, rigging, morphs and textures are starting to require some rethinks and a new level of refinement to meet these demands. I get the feeling there are a few content creators out there who may start to struggle unless they re-evaluate their practices (that goes for the big boys and Girls at Daz and SM too).

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

adn one more question.

how many ppl can pull that head position anyway? I know I can't!... (my chin ends up on my chest every time. I can't extend out like that)

Quote - adn one more question.

how many ppl can pull that head position anyway? I know I can't!... (my chin ends up on my chest every time. I can't extend out like that)

Man, you really disappoint me now, I really was under the impression that you could do that. But I agree with you, it's kind of silly to judge any figure on this criteria.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

BadKittehCo's photo clearly demonstrates-at least to me-the validity of the criticism that most Poser compatible figures are incorrectly proportioned and crudely rigged. While physical invariance in the real world is certainly a fact, I've never seen a human being with a neck that long and elastic. On the other hand, I freely admit that the people who labor so hard to create these figures for us and offer them at such low prices deserve our thanks and admiration for their wonderful creative skills. For that reason, I'm going to stick out my relatively short, stubby neck and venture the opinion that part of the problem under discussion here is the Poser using communities responsibility, and not the fault of those evil money grubbing merchants. Before you kick my bum across the room, allow me to clarify that assertion as best I can.

Poser compatible figures are offered at extremely low clearance sale prices, and Daz's base units are given away free. Now do a bit of research and compare those costs to what users of other 3D programs pay for models.....and be prepared for a case of terminal sticker shock. We're often talking several hundred dollars. Like it or not, you get what you pay for.

If you have ever attempted to create a 3D figure of a human being, you know what a frustrating, hideously laborious and tedious project it can be. I've tried more than once, and have yet to come close to producing anything that wouldn't cause you to do anything besides bust a gut laughing. I've always found rigging to be so daunting that I've just about decided to relegate it the black arts, along with global economics and a thorough understanding of female psychology.

My point is that we get what we pay for. How much would you be willing to spend for a vastly improved model that didn't suffer from the faults we're debating here? Two hundred dollars? I'm in the same financial situation as most of you in these forums, struggling from month to month to keep my head above water and put a little money in savings, but I'd be willing to purchase a realistic, properly rigged and jointed figure for that price, or even a bit more. When I think of how much use I've gotten out of Victoria 3 compared to what she cost me, it almost makes me feel guilty. True, she has some serious faults, but a lot of those are due to the technical limitations of computer hardware in use at the time of her release. Perhaps professional designers and distributors should now seriously up the standards for their products, and for us to to open our wallets a little wider. Sure, the hit to our disposable incomes will mean fewer dinners at Buca di Beppo*, but maybe it's worth the sacrifice.

*Actually, I prefer White Castle, but I'm an uncultured heathen.

....

erm. thats not a normal pose for ANY figure made by any person for poser or Daz and therefore not fair to judge any figure - SM, Daz, etc - by it.

how about using realistic poses? ones a human can achieve instead of ones that not even a doublejoined yoga master could do?

Yes, the base figures are free, but start adding in the costs required for the addons. It adds up quickly.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Connie's image set out to demonstrate only that bending with single axis scaling applied is problematic in Poser - nothing else. It's fairly irrelevant that the pose is unrealistic for a normal human.

So why is it even an issue...
Figure creation and rigging is such a  time-consuming and expensive process. That's why the concept of creating unimesh and versatile morphing and bending base figures makes sense (particularly for a marketplace such as this where many folk don't have huge budgets). Others will equally argue the case for creating hundreds of individually rigged figures for different characters, and in all fairness you can't expect one figure to be every possible character you might imagine. But I'd still argue that you need the versatile bases to cover a majority of character options.

If you go down this route (which Daz has done with Victoria and Michael), those base figures have to be exceptional in their mesh, morphs and rigging to be usable for multiple characters, whether realistic or fantasy.  Scaling becomes an important feature when seen in this context of versatility - say I need an alien character with a very long neck for example - which is why problems such as single axis scaling are an issue at all.

Given that it is a problem in Poser, it makes sense to me that SM could try and fix it - unless they have something else up their sleeves for future releases that will move the whole game forward.

Single axis scaling not working with bends in Poser isn't a huge problem at present from my perspective - I rarely make those alien characters with very long necks, and I don't plan on buying the Kids - but Daz is clearly using this feature more and more (which apparently works great in Studio) for some of its newer figures so I guess it's a potential problem (and one for the future) for Poser users that want them.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

erm no, the pose is NOT irrelevant at all.

if you move the figure into a pose that would break a human anyway, of course the rigging's going to break...!

but what do I know ....

Not for this demonstration ... It is just showing it will break because of the scaling.

look what I'm saying is,

if you show me the problem using a pose that would break it anyway, your not showing me anything other than you can break a figure anyway.

show me the problem with a normal pose, so I can see the problem as you would normally see it.

that make sense?

Quote - Really, guys - DAZ sells content, that's where their money is.

Wrongo! DAZ Sells SOFTWARE & CONTENT! DS/3 has a paid version, Cararra, Bryce, Hexagon are ALL Paid software programs. If you don't think they're working towards the day they don't need Poser you're sadly mistaken. With 4 different software programs and the coding involved for each under one roof, just how long do you think it'll be before they walk away from Poser? Sooner than you may think.

Using a figure that is in alpha is hardly fair, although I can understand why Connie would considering some of the statements made in this thread. :)

So what really is going on with that neck there? Here is a pic  See no broken seams.  Poser scaling is difficult to set up especially once you get to fingers, toes and shoulders. It is not something you want to do twice, takes alot of time. I never set up scaling until I am absolutely sure I am done tweeking JP's, since if you move them you must do it again. Setting up the scaling for Poser takes hundreds of man hours to do it properly. D/S scaling is not so touchy and is much easier to set up. So setting up scaling for Poser is going to add a great deal of time to the figure development, you can understand why Daz may not want to do this when their own scaling is fine.

Rather than throwing Daz Poser back and forth I am much more interested in the why something is not working and the how to resolve it. In the above example the neck is pretty easy to set up so you dont get the problems Connie demonstrated, I am sure odf knows these things and the final version of Antonia will scale properly. But like I said scaling is not something you want to do twice and likely odf will set it all up once he is sastisfied with tweeking the joints.

If any of you are actually interested in why the neck was scaling that way and how to set up the scaling so that does not happen.  I have made a short video (maybe 2-3 minutes) showing how to set up scaling for the neck so you dont get this problem.

Video:  www.youtube.com/watch

Thats not to say Poser has no bugs LOL, quite the contrary, flipping falloff zones and shifting joint centers to name two. But the scale thing with the neck shown by Connie is not one of them if it is set up right.

oops I guess the vid is 5 minutes.  :)

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

thanks Phantom. that helps a lot.

"......if it is set up right."

Exactly ! Thank you, Phantom3D.

Allow me to quote myself from from this thread over at DAZ:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=137495&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=120

People are mixing up several things:

1. DEFAULT (UNSCALED) Kids-4 bend in all versions of Poser without breaking.
   NOONE said otherwise, and that is NOT the problem..
   (Their strange "Mini-Me" default body shape is whole different can of worms)

2. "Single axis scaling" DOES work in Poser IF the figure is properly rigged according to Poser standards.
   It DOES not matter WHAT RIGGING TOOLS are used for the rigging.
   What matters is the RIGGING METHOD that was used.
   Was it rigged ADHERING to POSER'S STANDARDS or not, NOT was it rigged using POSER'S or STUDIO'S rigging tools.

3. CONFORMING a "single axis scaled" CLOTHING ITEM does ONLY work in PoserPro 2010.
   (In older versions the clothing reverts to default 100% scale when conformed)
   BUT ONLY if the "single axis scaling" in BOTH the figure AS WELL as the CLOTHING was set up using POSER'S STANDARDS for "single axis scaling".

If it isn't, the mesh and clothing will still break. <<

And just to be clear:
I'm definitly NOT in favor of single axis scaling.

Didn't like Apollo's ADS, don't like DAZ "morphforms".

A dedicated rig is a much better solution than a "one size fits all" setup, because a rig is more than just joint centers.
Even if you just morph a mesh from "emacicated" to "heavy", the falloff zones and JCM's will cause problems unless you re-adjust them.
Scaling also distorts limbs in a way that isn't realistic, even if the scaling is propery set up.

But the point is, IF one insists to make a figure highly "scaleable", doing it in Poser is NOT a problem.

I still prefer these Toddlers!

Awesome video.

So, is that all this single axis scaling issue thing is - just not setting it up in the rigging?

That's crazy. I stand corrected - not a Poser scaling problem it seems.

Thanks for sharing that video Phantom.

What is it in Poser that makes it trickier to set up than D/S?

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Quote -
Didn't like Apollo's ADS, don't like DAZ "morphforms".

A dedicated rig is a much better solution than a "one size fits all" setup, because a rig is more than just joint centers.
Even if you just morph a mesh from "emacicated" to "heavy", the falloff zones and JCM's will cause problems unless you re-adjust them.
Scaling also distorts limbs in a way that isn't realistic, even if the scaling is propery set up.

But the point is, IF one insists to make a figure highly "scaleable", doing it in Poser is NOT a problem.

I agree that dedicated rigs are ideally much better solutions, but surely a very costly one potentially to the end user with a wide variety of character needs.
And what are we talking about here, a seperate figure for every different variation or a seperate rig to cover ranges of body-types (e.g. thin, average, obese, muscular)?
Is there any conceivable way to switch rigs in a figure in a user friendly way?

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Carrodan:  D/S scaling is alot less touchy, and it will look better even if it is not set the best it could be. Some things that just explode a mesh in Poser with the scaling, you will barely notice in D/S. This must have something to do with the internal code and how D/S scales.   Poser scaling is old and very, very touchy but it does work quite well, just hard and  annoying to set up. Especially things like fingers and add on top of thad if a figure starts out with a bend to the joint, lining up the axis for the scale to be smooth between the two connected parts, makes it even harder, but it can be done.

Also, and I dont know if this is true for D/S, you get your best scaling if the rows of polygons in your mesh are 90 degrees to your scale axis.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Phantom, I just tried your technique with my modified Ichiro1 mesh, and it worked beautifully.

THANKS!

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Cheers mike - it sounds like Poser's rigging could benefit an overhaul of some kind.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Video bookmarked :o).

Thanks much Mr. Mike ;o).

Laurie

"And what are we talking about here, a seperate figure for every different variation or a seperate rig to cover ranges of body-types (e.g. thin, average, obese, muscular)?
Is there any conceivable way to switch rigs in a figure in a user friendly way?"

You can inject joints (and falloff-zones) into a figure's cr2 just like you can inject morphs.

So ideally, if you incejt an "obese" morph or an "emacicated" morph, you could also inject modified joints and falloff zones at the same time.
Same for clothing, of course.

But I usually re-rig all my morphed figures and turn them into standalone characters as I want the joints to be as perfect as possible.

Quote -
You can inject joints (and falloff-zones) into a figure's cr2 just like you can inject morphs.

So ideally, if you incejt an "obese" morph or an "emacicated" morph, you could also inject modified joints and falloff zones at the same time.
Same for clothing, of course.

But I usually re-rig all my morphed figures and turn them into standalone characters as I want the joints to be as perfect as possible.

I just wondered why no-one has attempted this as a commercial option for a base figure (perhaps it has been done?).
Would a rig/shape injection system be workable for the versatile figure concept?

Thing is, for the end user who doesn't know rigging at all, but wants a solution to character design via dial spinning that moves beyond V4/M4, it seems like a good idea.
I'd always prefer to use a good base in this way. I did like Apollo for this design potential, for all his shortcomings.
Could be I'm just dreaming.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

The thing is that it is something that most users would not even attempt, changing the joints is not for the feint of heart. It is also something that you would have to to do for every piece of clothing, etc. And it is not a one size fits all solution. So what you end up with for one thing, doesn't work in another, etc. That is always what the poser scale bug was. It has always been the joints.

Quote - The thing is that it is something that most users would not even attempt, changing the joints is not for the feint of heart. It is also something that you would have to to do for every piece of clothing, etc. And it is not a one size fits all solution. So what you end up with for one thing, doesn't work in another, etc. That is always what the poser scale bug was. It has always been the joints.

Well if you use Wardrobe Wizard to transfer the clothing to the newly rigged figure you'll save a lot of time.

Quote - The thing is that it is something that most users would not even attempt, changing the joints is not for the feint of heart. It is also something that you would have to to do for every piece of clothing, etc. And it is not a one size fits all solution. So what you end up with for one thing, doesn't work in another, etc. That is always what the poser scale bug was. It has always been the joints.

So the Daz Studio scaling will work sorta like universal for clothes too? Now thats interesting, I have not worked with clothes much yet in Poser, a bit, and they do have to be adjusted for scaling differently than the figure to get a perfect fit. That would be a plus if you did not have to do that.

I am looking at adopting some of the Daz style scaling especially for  the chest-collars.  In Brad the collars are just a thin line befor the shoulder, not much to work with for scaling. But if I tie them together with the chest (morph forms) they work great. I'll likely end up with a hybrid Daz-Poser scaling.

The example I used in the video is over simplified as well, cause you have to remember that you also have other body parts and x and z scale to account for as well. So it gets more complicated than just setting up the y scale, they all have to play nice together.

cheers.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - Using a figure that is in alpha is hardly fair, although I can understand why Connie would considering some of the statements made in this thread. :)

So what really is going on with that neck there? Here is a pic  See no broken seams.

Actually, you have stretched seams on the uderside of the neck, and also, you didn't use any of the head nod rotation.  Try compaing apples and apples.

I'm going to re-download your latest, and show you what it looks like when you compare apples and apples.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

here, I highlighted the beginning of the problem areas on your own picture. If you bend the head down, like I sait it should be bent, the problem areas are going to be more visible, and there will be new ones on the back of the neck. So, do try not to lie, 'nkay. You can fool some of the people some of the time... but you're not the only one who kows how to rig *ahem* properly.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

lie? nice. you know sometime we may actually have a civil conversation round here.

you know one with out snide comments and trying to score points.
 I'm outta here. it's just not worth the time.

Won't the the mesh always stretch when a body part is bent? I mean, I know that's why extra density is added in those parts, but they're still gonna stretch some ;o).

Laurie

Quote -
To make it work with current rigging system, one would have to anticipate Z Scaling and make a whole array of ERC'd JP adjustments and JCM's for each joint. That would be a humongous undertaking. Not to mention very cost prohibitive to make a figure like that, and especially clothing for it.

And ahem allow me to channel Joe public and quote myself(LOL)  from the previous page of this thread (See above).
The joint smoothing parameters that phantom showed in his video are just a part of JP's that have been a part of the rigging all the time.

A figure will bend different ways, depending on how those JP's are set. Also those may needs a different setting depending on whether a bone is bending forward, back or sideways, and whether the neighboring bones are bent and/or rotated or not.

One would have to be a real entry level rigger to not be aware of those.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - > Quote - The thing is that it is something that most users would not even attempt, changing the joints is not for the feint of heart. It is also something that you would have to to do for every piece of clothing, etc. And it is not a one size fits all solution. So what you end up with for one thing, doesn't work in another, etc. That is always what the poser scale bug was. It has always been the joints.

Well if you use Wardrobe Wizard to transfer the clothing to the newly rigged figure you'll save a lot of time.

I just love it when people who never actually do things act like they know how it's done.
Can you show us some examples of your work, pelase?

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - erm no, the pose is NOT irrelevant at all.

if you move the figure into a pose that would break a human anyway, of course the rigging's going to break...!

but what do I know ....

Well, if we're going to use that logic, on real humans, biones are not scalable, so then why are people biatching that kids bones not scaling well? Can't have it both ways.

Quote - if you show me the problem using a pose that would break it anyway, your not showing me anything other than you can break a figure anyway.

Good point. See, it all started with people showing those kings of poses using the kids, as proof that 'they're poorly rigged'. I'm trying to stick to comparing apples and apples.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - Won't the the mesh always stretch when a body part is bent? I mean, I know that's why extra density is added in those parts, but they're still gonna stretch some ;o).
Laurie

Of course it will, on any figure, that's exactly what I was trying to show. That's how poser rigging works. This is not something isolated to Kids or DAZ figures.
However, I'm seeing it used as 'proof' that DAZ figures have more issues then 'other properly rigged figures', and that's just not true.  It's just how poser rigging works. All figures are susceptible to it's limitations.

Now, when it comes to whether one wants to adjust aspecific JP's more in one direction or another, it boils down to a difference of opinions between riggers, and what their ultimate goals are for the figure. This doesn't mean that one=bad and improper, and the other = proper, and good.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

I believe this is an interesting and useful thread, so let's please treat each other with civility and patience. I know we all share deep passions for similar  interests ( art, 3D modeling ), which makes it difficult sometimes to keep our emotions from boiling over ( mea culpa ), but the people in these forums are a more than cut above the average and deserve our courtesy and respect.

Now if you'll excuse me, I just fell off my soapbox and landed flat on my face. Blame it on Bourbon and soda; it's always easier than admitting you're a sentimental dweeb.

Quote -
So the Daz Studio scaling will work sorta like universal for clothes too? Now thats interesting, I have not worked with clothes much yet in Poser, a bit, and they do have to be adjusted for scaling differently than the figure to get a perfect fit. That would be a plus if you did not have to do that.

No, you still have to tweak and adjust each JP so that it bends properly around the underlying figure. It's actually a bit trickier, and to me it appears to be more time consuming to do it in clothing then then on a figure itself, because you have more then just aesthetics of the bend to worry about, but the pokethrough from the underlying figure. Including accounting for it's JCM's. Often in clothing you end up with more JCM's then in a figure... if you want somewhat realistically fitted clothing, and not something that lookes like a stretched out tube sock a mile away from the figure body.

Quote - I am looking at adopting some of the Daz style scaling especially for  the chest-collars.  In Brad the collars are just a thin line befor the shoulder, not much to work with for scaling. But if I tie them together with the chest (morph forms) they work great. I'll likely end up with a hybrid Daz-Poser scaling. The example I used in the video is over simplified as well, cause you have to remember that you also have other body parts and x and z scale to account for as well. So it gets more complicated than just setting up the y scale, they all have to play nice together.
cheers.

There's no such thing as DAZ specific scaling rig. The difference is that internally, DS soesn't depend on the neighboring body part smoothing parameters like Poser does, but it happens automatically - internally in the program. If the 'bend' on a joint is turned ON, then it automatically smooths the transitions, while Poser depends more on the parameters you showed in your video. I can ask around and get more specifics about this if you'd like more info.

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Hi Connie,

I knew there must be something going on internally in the Daz scaling, things look smoother. So I wonder if its still possible to have something like a hybrid? Poser as it is, is not going to recognise the automatic smoothing, or more correctly just doesnt have the same ability. I was thinking more along the lines of combining the scaling of several body parts like the chest-collars and maybe even the neck by setting up the erc for it with the D/S setup tools. But still leaving the individual dials so you can make fine adjustmens in individual parts.

Yes if you happen to know of any information on the joint smoothing or run across it in your travels, I would be very interested. I wonder if a PY script could be devised to accomlish something similar? Not that I could ever write it myself but someone like Cage might be able to.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - > Quote -

You can inject joints (and falloff-zones) into a figure's cr2 just like you can inject morphs.

So ideally, if you incejt an "obese" morph or an "emacicated" morph, you could also inject modified joints and falloff zones at the same time.
Same for clothing, of course.

But I usually re-rig all my morphed figures and turn them into standalone characters as I want the joints to be as perfect as possible.

I just wondered why no-one has attempted this as a commercial option for a base figure (perhaps it has been done?).
Would a rig/shape injection system be workable for the versatile figure concept?

Thing is, for the end user who doesn't know rigging at all, but wants a solution to character design via dial spinning that moves beyond V4/M4, it seems like a good idea.
I'd always prefer to use a good base in this way. I did like Apollo for this design potential, for all his shortcomings.
Could be I'm just dreaming.

While this can be done, it's a really good way to get no clothing support for the figure whatsoever.  Just think how much time it takes to adjust JP's just for a single rig.
Now let's say a fiigure has 50 morphs... you could spend the same amount of time refining the JP's for each morph. If it takes someone only an hour to adjust JP's for a single morph (which would be incredibly fast), it would take 50 hours - a long week to adjust JP's to be at the optimium for each morph.  And this is just assuming each morph is to be used at a value of 1. The moment you start using other morph values, the relationship between morphed mesh location, and JP influence zones change again, and you no longer have the optimum. Theoretically, to get best results at incrimental morph values, JP's would have to be ERC'd to responf to the morph value.

Of course, as soon as you start moving the JP's, your JCM's no longer behave quite right, because in 90% of the cases JCM's are very dependent on the JP values staying static. So what do you do, make a new set of JCM's for each morph with it's own set of JP settings?  So, lets' sau a figure needs 30 JCM's... each morph is likely to need a new set of JCM's (that would be 30*50=1500 JCM's).
Now, I'm very fast at makign JCM's, when on a roll, I can go as fast as one very 10 minutes. We're talking about 250 hours just making the JCM's... not to mention a HUUUUGE file. This is just to use morph values at a setting of 1. Now, that is not the kind of figure I would do clothing for - unless I wanted my house in foreclosure.

This doesn'teven account for any ability to start mixing morphs and get different characters....

What i'm getting at is, it's very easy to take something out of context of how the entire machinery works together (the way Joe Public's statement did), and say, eh, it's an easy adjustment. it is not. You adjust one thing, and it breaks and influences 50 other items. This is the limitation of rigging figures in general, and little more specifically Poser rigging, since it's very old technology. Newer rigs, in more advanced software are a tad less sensitive to this, because of advancements in rigging technology. But even there (like in Cinema, or Max etc) rigs have their limitations, and need to be made at an optimum between purpose and performance.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - Hi Connie,

I knew there must be something going on internally in the Daz scaling, things look smoother. So I wonder if its still possible to have something like a hybrid? Poser as it is, is not going to recognise the automatic smoothing, or more correctly just doesnt have the same ability. I was thinking more along the lines of combining the scaling of several body parts like the chest-collars and maybe even the neck by setting up the erc for it with the D/S setup tools. But still leaving the individual dials so you can make fine adjustmens in individual parts.

Yes if you happen to know of any information on the joint smoothing or run across it in your travels, I would be very interested. I wonder if a PY script could be devised to accomlish something similar? Not that I could ever write it myself but someone like Cage might be able to.

You can make those adjustments inside DAZ's figure setup tools(FST). I usually inherit them from the V4's rig when I make clothing, so I don't mess with them often enough to know the finer points of the differences between adjusting them in FST vs. Poser.

I know they can be tweaked in FST, I've selected them by accident plenty of times, when I thought I was moving bone centers.

I jsut ran a few test movements on the Neck and chest and head smoothing parameters, and DS definately reacts to their movement - on Antonia. On V4, they appear to be locked in place and hidden, so I'll need to hack the cr2 first to show and make them selectable, or pick a different figure to tinker with.

What I haven't done yet is do side by side comparison on whether the mesh behaves identically when those parameters are adjusted in both programs. Just from memory, without side by side comparison, I find it harder to create the sharp, stepped looking dropoff between body groups, in DS. It appears that if something falls outside of a bend zone DS still takes a row of polygons and from a neighboring figure and bends then, rather then leaving a sharp dropoff.

Running a real technically valuable comparison is going to take some time, because i want to make sure I use identical poses and numerical values in both programs, and test it on several figures... so give me a few daysto find a bit of time and patience to get throug it.

Also, I'm going to post some technical questions over on DAZ developers forum, see what other technical info I can shake out, about the differences.

I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that "It's a poser bug" or that the kids are 'badly rigged", or taht DAZ is "abandoning Poser user support" , but it's obvious that some differences between those two do exist.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

> Quote - > Quote - > Quote - The thing is that it is something that most users would not even attempt, changing the joints is not for the feint of heart. It is also something that you would have to to do for every piece of clothing, etc. And it is not a one size fits all solution. So what you end up with for one thing, doesn't work in another, etc. That is always what the poser scale bug was. It has always been the joints. > > > > > > > > Well if you use Wardrobe Wizard to transfer the clothing to the newly rigged figure you'll save a lot of time. > > > > I just love it when people who never actually do things act like they know how it's done. > Can you show us some examples of *your* work, pelase?

First off, You need to get down off of your High Horse! Examples of my work would be every single piece of clothing I did under the name of MatrixWorkz. Try not "Ass-uming" I've never done anything again shall we? Also I've used WW to fit clothing to morphed figures in my personal projects with the Poser Robinsons to get Dork cloths to fit P6 James and P5 Don and M3 in morphed poses. And anyone who has used WW often will tell you, use of the Joint Editor is still required and I've used it!

Okay, just a quick comparison between Poser and DS and some findings. I compared it in DS3 Advanced with Figure Setup tools, and in Poser 7, and PP2010:

When a bone is non uniformly scaled, along a Y axis for example, in Poser, the SmooY parameters stay static - as in do not change the "Y" location, as the bone location moves. This way, very quickly the mesh falls out of the bend influence zone and produces the stairstepping effect.
When a bone is Uniformly scaled (XY and Z) the smooY parameter moves/scales along with the bone in Poser.

The other three JP's, XYand Z rotation move, movements and scaling move and scale with the bones or joints as they move around. This is the same in both programs.

In DS, the smooY parameter moves with the bone even when it's non uniformly scaled (in poser it stays static) - this way the mesh doesn't fall outside smoothing influence zones as quickly, producing a smoother bend.

So, I guess I can see why some people would consider it a "bug". I can't think of a specific reason why make all the other JP's move around with the bone, except for smooY parameter, and only when it's scaled in one direction. When the whole bone is scaled, the smooY does move with the bone.  First impression is, it looks like it got forgotten.

Maybe there is a specific technical reason why this was done in poser, if so, and someone knows what it is, please stop by and explain.  Kitty (and others I suspect) are dying of curiosity here.

I guess a possible fix for this would be to have a separate set of JP's for Poser, where the smooY parameter start and end locations are ERC'd to the bone Yscale. IRRC JP's can be INJected, but not REMoved, so Poser users would have to load a figure, then INJ the Poser JP's.

What I don't know yet is if that's the only thing that affects the smoothing or not.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

"I find it harder to create the sharp, stepped looking dropoff between body groups, in DS. It appears that if something falls outside of a bend zone DS still takes a row of polygons and from a neighboring figure and bends then, rather then leaving a sharp dropoff."

I noticed much the same while I was working on the scaling of the M4 gens. It took a super fine adjustment of the scaling to get them to smooth out in Poser. I did get them to smooth out but it is a very fine line.

"I don't particularly subscribe to the idea that "It's a poser bug" or that the kids are 'badly rigged", or taht DAZ is "abandoning Poser user support" , but it's obvious that some differences between those two do exist."

I dont either, Poser rigging is old and the settings are touchy, but they do work. I have not had the chance to sit down and look at the kids yet, I keep meaning to and will eventually. I think Daz is moving on in the direction that further development of D/S takes them, it may or may not bring a rift between the two comunities. But I had been reading over in the Daz forums that they are going to support the new rigging options in Poser 8 and PP 2010. So perhaps things may turn out for the better, and any split is likely some time away.  I like Poser even for all its faults, and either way I think the comunity will deal with whatever the future brings. If the two split I dont think it will really kill either one.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

DS and Poser aren't going to split that much. The market is small wenough that they need each other.  Business wise, it's better to be a smaller fish in a bigger pond, then a huge fish in a tiny pond.

Some pulling and tugging back and forth just sounds like a good healthy dose of sibiling rivalry to me. No more then that.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - DS and Poser aren't going to split that much. The market is small wenough that they need each other.  Business wise, it's better to be a smaller fish in a bigger pond, then a huge fish in a tiny pond.

Some pulling and tugging back and forth just sounds like a good healthy dose of sibiling rivalry to me. No more then that.

Hopefully not, I havn't even made anything to sell yet, and when I do, I'd much rather make something that works in both apps.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - > Quote - DS and Poser aren't going to split that much. The market is small wenough that they need each other.  Business wise, it's better to be a smaller fish in a bigger pond, then a huge fish in a tiny pond.

Some pulling and tugging back and forth just sounds like a good healthy dose of sibiling rivalry to me. No more then that.

Hopefully not, I havn't even made anything to sell yet, and when I do, I'd much rather make something that works in both apps.

It's not too bad. Especially if you stay somewhat middle of the road.  if you get too advanced in either direction, they you start bumping into limitations of one program, or the other.
like, the non-uniform scaling thing, or with P8 having the dependent parameters now.
To make things work for the broadest audience and piss off as few people as possible, you always end up staying at least version behind the latest tech stuff.

If you go too far forwrd, or too far outside the mainstream, you get the bragging rights, but if you're trying to do this for a living, it doesn't pay the bills.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Yup, you would need to appeal to a large audience to make a living at this. I will likely just make a few things here and there, I'm much too slow to ever make a living at it. But it would be nice to see a few things being used that I made.  :)

Is this what you mean by IIRC? www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

I thought this might come in really handy for the jaw

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

oh, IIRC = If I Remember Correctly :)

That looks like an awesomly informative thread!  (I only scanend through it so far, will definately bookmark it for a detailed read.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

The problem is that when DAZ copied Poser they couldn't/wouldn't re-ingeneer Poser rigging.

So internally Studio uses some sort of weightmapping that scales differently.
(Try the Figure Mixer in Advanced Studio and it asks you how to merge (freeze) the joint parameters of the combined figure: Poser falloff zones or vertex painting)

Only if you export the figure as a cr2 the "internal" weightmapping will be translated into (more or less) standard Poser rigging.

Now, that emulation is quite good, but not perfect (Fix morphs made using MorphLoaderPro only work properly inside Studio for example.)

But the real problem here is this:
How good is good enough ?

We now can use multiple capsule shaped falloffzones.
We have a morphbrush that works across joints.
There is also another tool in the works that will revolutionize the way JCM's are made in Poser.
Click: Export POSED figure to ZBrush
Click: Sculpt JCM morph
Click: Import JCM morph back to Poser.
And unlike MorphloaderPRO the results are PERFECT.

For 10 years I constantly heard people whining: Waaah, the joints are BAD ! Lookathershoulders ! Waaah..we want better figures !
Waaah..We want to be like the PROS !

Well, guess what ?
The tools are out there.
You can easily rig a figure in Poser now that brings tears to the eyes of any "professional" MAX/MAYA user.

But instead everybody now dances around a frigging Barbie doll that is five steps behind the curve because people insist on "versatility".

Well, people, I got news for you:
You can't have it both.
You can't morph from fat blob to Zombie with just a dial spin without things breaking.
You can't just go from toddler to teen with a "morphform".
Not of you have some quality standards.

This "versatility" crap is just a marketing shtick.
No, you don't need a new set of joints for each and any morph.
That's the usual propaganda nonsense like "Poser is brooooooken"

I'm all for easy and accessible for everybody.

But don't dumb stuff down because you think your customers are to stupid to notice.
And especially don't dumb stuff down just to rake in more money.

DAZ has changed direction.
From "artists tools" they went to creating "hobbyist toys".
"Easy", "versatile" and "convenient" is not the same as "highest possible quality".

Look at the crap merchants create for those figures.
Skin tight styrofoam clothing without a single wrinkle.

"Waah, waah, waah...it's too hard to rig and it don't makes enough munneeee !"
Well, perhaps you should go look for a job at McDonalds then.

This "Whatever it takes to bring in the cash" attitude stinks.
Make up your mind, DAZ.
Do you want to supply artists with artist tools, or do you want to be the Mattel of the Poserverse ?

No, don't answer.
Looking at V4, M4, and now Kid-4 the answer is quite clear.

Well, I just discussed this with a friend and I wrote him that after some re-thinking I'm actually quite happy that Kid-4 is such a dissapointment.
V4 is completely useless IMO, but M4 gave me new hope that DAZ would actually listen.
Had Kid-4 been at least as good as M4, I would have thrown out the 10 years of work I so far invested in my 3rd gen "family" and started over again.

Which would have been foolish as both the mesh topology as well as the mapping of the 3rd gen figures is way better than of those subdivided "new and improved" 4th gen figures.

But now I have a good reason to close the 4th gen chapter once and for all.

This is the only  V4 I at least occasionally use: V4toSp3 and V4toSP3LOD

V4toV3 resculpted to SP3's bodyshape.

Re-rigged to use SP3's joints.
All the "Joint scaling Magnet" stuff went OUT
All the "Morphforms" went OUT.
Already bends better than V4 (See shoulders) but will be more improved later.

Uses all of V4's headmorphs
Uses all of SP3's bodymorphs.
Can wear SP3 clothing.
Much lighter than V4
Much more rugged than V4
And most important, she looks like an actual human being. :-)

Joe, to be fair, in some respects, DAZ simply gave the community what it asked for: "WHY WONT MY PRETTY STEPHANIE TEXTURE WORK ON VICKIE! CANT YOU GUYS MAKE IT EASIER?"

And so they did, with the Unimesh. But the problem with the Unimesh, the way I see it anyway, is that it has to be so polygon intensive to anticipate ALL of the needs that it's like painting in oils, which is really suggestive of moving mud around. It makes this huge, weighty figures unavoidable, which means that unless you have a really powerful machine, you're severely limited in what you can and cannot create. I started to worry about this when I saw how Hiro3 could go from a skinny, smooth anime figure to a detailed, realistic muscleman: the polys needed for such a transformation dont appear out of nowhere, and displacement maps can only do so much.

Well, now we've taken it to the next logical step, I guess. And it's only going to get better (or worse, depending on your point of view).

As for the rigging video that Phantom put up, I have to admit, in all my years of working with the stuff, I never thought to look at the joints to correct that kind of mesh issue. No doubt this is the same problem I see with clothing converted in WW, and now I'll feel more confident about going into those and reworking them for a better fit.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Yeah, "Unimesh" idea was basically just marketing buzz.

The M2-V2 male-female split was much better.
(And M2 still made a very sexy woman as Stephanie 1)
Men and kids don't need high rez boobs or high rez crotches.
But they need muscle/bone detail.

And women don't need that much muscle edgeloops but more vertices for the "womanly" parts.

But I still based my work on the 3rd generation meshes because they have the largest texture support ond the overall rigging is better.

But once you "specialize" your figures and loose all the bodymorphs and most of the head morphs, the footprint will get A LOT smaller.

Quote - Joe, to be fair, in some respects, DAZ simply gave the community what it asked for: "WHY WONT MY PRETTY STEPHANIE TEXTURE WORK ON VICKIE! CANT YOU GUYS MAKE IT EASIER?"

And so they did, with the Unimesh. But the problem with the Unimesh, the way I see it anyway, is that it has to be so polygon intensive to anticipate ALL of the needs that it's like painting in oils, which is really suggestive of moving mud around. It makes this huge, weighty figures unavoidable, which means that unless you have a really powerful machine, you're severely limited in what you can and cannot create. I started to worry about this when I saw how Hiro3 could go from a skinny, smooth anime figure to a detailed, realistic muscleman: the polys needed for such a transformation dont appear out of nowhere, and displacement maps can only do so much.

Well, now we've taken it to the next logical step, I guess. And it's only going to get better (or worse, depending on your point of view).

As for the rigging video that Phantom put up, I have to admit, in all my years of working with the stuff, I never thought to look at the joints to correct that kind of mesh issue. No doubt this is the same problem I see with clothing converted in WW, and now I'll feel more confident about going into those and reworking them for a better fit.

That pretty much sums it up. One size fits all and ease of use comes at the cost of something else.  No matter how you shake it, somene is going to be unhappy and cry bloody murder. So, most businesses try to shoot for the majority. Result of that is a popular, versatile, but  somewhat average product.

Most people and places that do this as a business aren't going to spend exorbitant amount of time doing something merely for the bragging rights of having the most technically advanced product. Once you become a vendor, you realize that most people don't really care all that much about the latest and most advanced stuff.

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

I think one of the main reasons that the Poser figures that came with the program died is the lack of versatility. So people do want it. If you don't provide it people do complain.

I'm all for variety.
Thick, thin, young, old, black, white, male, female...

You can get pretty much all out of this from a single well made mesh.
(Which the 3rd gen Unimesh is)

But DAZ should stop spreading the myth that you can do all this with a single rig, too, and "flick of a dial" convenience.

Why is it more convenient to load a single 200mb cr2 and then using a pose file to get variety than loading a 20mb standalone figure that already looks like what you have in mind ?

And if you change yur mind, you just load another 20mb standalone figure.
(Using the SAME mesh but DIFFERENT joints)

You still can have more than enough variety with that approach.

Or load a baby if you need a baby.
And a preteen if you need a preteen.
Instead of a "Kid" with broken joints ?

This is how Poser works best.
And the lighter cr2's have lots of other advantages, too.
Why do you think the 4th gen mesh have so many problems ?
Why they do break so easily ?
The more "versatile" you make a mesh, the more complicated it gets.
The more complicated, the easier it breaks.

It's just because DAZ started those "Vicky can be your personal dreamgirl with a few dialspins" that customers (who sadly don't know any better" "demand" versatility.

Just as they now "demand" clothing and props for bargain prices, because Rendo and DAZ brainwashed them with all those "sales".

It's an entitlement mentality that is completely disconnected from reality.
But DAZ is the one to blame because cartering to peoples instincts (CHEAP !) usually makes the most money.

But it pretty much ruined the market for anything else.
(Top notch quality Poser stuff)

From my point of view it's not so much about 'cheap' , rather how easily I can create the variety of character I desire. I'm not exactly flush, but I will pay for what works for me.

JoePublic -Your points about using lindividual rigs for certain meta types of characters do make sense - I'm starting to come around to this idea much more. I'd still suggest you'd need (in each of those Cr2's) a full range of body/head morphs to make them usable (have enough variety  mean).

Of course, at this present time there is nothing quite like this on the market (i.e a complete system of character rigs).There's a mish-mash of different figures but they lack a cohesive approach, which is what I think you need to have. I suppose the Daz approach isn't a million miles away from this idea, but they do seem to milk it for all it's worth with each individual figure they release - they don't sell their figures in terms of being a unified set that all share the same morphs and textures, even though you can achieve this to a greater or lesser degree.

So, have you been working on something like this?

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Quote - I think one of the main reasons that the Poser figures that came with the program died is the lack of versatility. So people do want it. If you don't provide it people do complain.

I agree, people have come to expect all those morphs, and various characters from a single mesh. Which is good perhaps for the business that is creating the figures that people want.  But I think its also sad, it makes people lazy, they dont have the need to get their hands dirty and make those morphs themselves. Or to learn much about the apps they use.

Different rigs for different figures Is of course what I would prefer too LOL. But it does create a lot of extra work. But I think that more and more, that is becoming a viable option. You have WW for clothes, and Cage has been writting a PY for doing the same thing with morphs. Plus you have morphing clothes. Once we have enough avenues of transfering between differently rigged figures (which may be now) This option could become popular.

You can honestly only do so much with size and shape befor you really need to move and readjust the joints. I've always thought an obese figure, an average figure and an emaciated figure could cover pretty much the full range of body types. Using morphs etc to get all varients in between. The same for different age groups if you had a few well made well rigged figures at different ages you could cover all in between.  Like stepping instead of going from full sized full grown human to a very young child.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - From my point of view it's not so much about 'cheap' , rather how easily I can create the variety of character I desire. I'm not exactly flush, but I will pay for what works for me.

JoePublic -Your points about using lindividual rigs for certain meta types of characters do make sense - I'm starting to come around to this idea much more. I'd still suggest you'd need (in each of those Cr2's) a full range of body/head morphs to make them usable (have enough variety  mean).

Of course, at this present time there is nothing quite like this on the market (i.e a complete system of character rigs).There's a mish-mash of different figures but they lack a cohesive approach, which is what I think you need to have. I suppose the Daz approach isn't a million miles away from this idea, but they do seem to milk it for all it's worth with each individual figure they release - they don't sell their figures in terms of being a unified set that all share the same morphs and textures, even though you can achieve this to a greater or lesser degree.

So, have you been working on something like this?

Where it becomes troublesome is in clothing support, which is often crucial to figure success. Most clothing makers, those of us who like to make detailed stuff anyway, and who are trying to pay bills doing this, can only succesfully support one or two figures.

This means that if Aiko, and the Girl, and Elite series and She freak, and hiro, and freak etc, were all using separate rigs (as opposed to being morphs on a single rig) I would not be able to afford the time to make a separate piece for each one. Especially since each of those figures would sell considerably fewer number of pieces. Poserdom as a market is small enough that for people like me, selling fewer number of pieces doesn't mean a difference between making a lot of money, and a little bit less... but a difference between, do I make my bills this month or not.

So, it becomes a catch 22, what direction to take, unimesh concept, and more clothing, or more optimized base figure, better nudes, less clothing. Figure not having enough clothing support is yet another very contentious thing in poserdom, where a lot of people feel snubbed and ignored, while the reality of the situation is, most clothing makers can't keep up.

That's another thing, if poser rigging was more modernized, making clothing would be lot less time consuming too, and we'd be able to make more stuff, for a greater variety of figures..

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Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Of course, dynamic clothing is always an option ;o). You can make a piece of clothing made for one figure fit another with just a little time on rescaling and maybe a magnet or two here and there. Nope, it's not as simple as conforming clothing and it ain't gonna happen in one click and one minute, but in the end, it looks much better.

Laurie (a fan of dynamic clothing)

I always find it fascinating when people say they want "versatility", because it usually means "how big can I make these titties?" Let's face it, there's not a whole lot of versatility out there -- it's like the old New Yorker cartoon of the couple telling their friends, "We never go to restaurants or movies or museums or plays... but it's nice to know they're there."

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Most clothing makers, those of us who like to make detailed stuff anyway, and who are trying to pay bills doing this, can only succesfully support one or two figures.

Which sounds to me like a very good reason to not go around insulting your customer base.

More than not, this discussion proves one point more than any other...

Even the advancements made in the software do not get use. People (for a reason totally unknown to me) still want MAT files when we haven't needed them for years (but DS still uses them). We still for some reason want conforming clothing instead of dynamics when dynamics is more versitile, doesn't depend in the least on joints or anything else and looks superior in the end. All because it's "easier" (opinions may vary ;o)).

Laurie

I think, from this end-user's point of view (I'm really just an artist wanting to concentrate on composing and making pictures), what I've always wanted in Poser is the ability to create any given character (at least in terms of human forms) without having to spend an in-ordinate amount of time either shopping around to find suitable figures and morphs (which may end up being badly made) or having to make endless adjustments to achieve it.

I don't think this makes me a lazy Poser user - I just have other focuses for the time and enery I'm putting into projects. I can and do make my own tweak morphs and textures etc, I do adjust jp's (albeit in a very limited way) and I do use both the hair and cloth room regularly and with very pleasing results. It's important to know about and be able to use the tools to some degree.
Incidentally, I've always had a problem using conforming clothes - I love dynamics and use them for all projects now. The time it takes to run the sims seem minimal compared to the amount of time it used to take to sort oy pokethrough and deformed meshes due to one problem or another.

To me it's all about systems. IMO as an end user you need reliable systems of some kind (whether it be single versatile figures or the multiple rig concept) in order to have a reasonably manageable workflow. The alternative is that we all end up having to learn all the tools and processes in all their minute detail - which to do to an expert level with something like rigging alone takes a lot of time and just doesn't make sense in my mind. Better to have some experts in certain fields - they cam make stuff that we then buy - good for the economy.
I'm not averse to learning to use the tools any given system requires, but if the process of coming up with a character I have in mind for a project takes too much time and then doesn't work well anyway, it kills the creativity and momentum for that project.

Another problem for me (certainly when I came to Poser 7 or 8 years ago) is that there don't really seem to be any particularly well defined or documented systems/processes for character design in Poser - step-by-step, start to finish I mean (perhaps there are in books in the marketplace).  Sure, there were and still are lots of apparent ways of doing so, and a vast amount of quality 'bits' of info (tutorials to cover this aspect or that) but there's an overriding lack of cohesion to much of the process of using Poser and it's tools & content. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that there are lots of options, but it's an overwhelming experience for the newcomer (and sometimes the veteran user), even if they do have some knowledge of 3d and image making before they start.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Thats true carodan didn't mean to call you lazy :biggrin: I guess it all depends on what you're goals are.  I havn't had time in years to actually sit down and put together a nice scene and render it.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

>> "there don't really seem to be any particularly well defined or documented systems/processes for character design in Poser"

That's because Poser was never meant for that kind of work. It was designed to be an artist's tool, but not an end tool, which is why the wholesale character transformations we see as morphs have all been created in something else, like Max.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Thats true carodan didn't mean to call you lazy :biggrin: I guess it all depends on what you're goals are.  I havn't had time in years to actually sit down and put together a nice scene and render it.

LOL - I usually run out of time to do anything more complex than a single clothed figure and a backdrop. If I ever make it to retirement age (quite a few years off yet) and have some quality time for this medium I'm gonna have a ball.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Frankly I DO still use the figures that come with Poser, always have used them more than DAZ figures. I do make my own morphs & dynamic clothing and Dynamic hair and I do mess around with JP's on figures as well as Props. Lazy doesn't even come into it. What I don't do much of anymore is post my work around here.

Quote - >> "there don't really seem to be any particularly well defined or documented systems/processes for character design in Poser"

That's because Poser was never meant for that kind of work. It was designed to be an artist's tool, but not an end tool, which is why the wholesale character transformations we see as morphs have all been created in something else, like Max.

I suppose it depends on what you define character design to be. If you consider the base figure in itself as a development tool, what I mean is using the dial spins to create a certain variation from the base, then using magnets and (since P7) the morph-brush tool to refine this. Then spawning the body-parts to create a single full body morph so you can loose the development morphs from the Cr2 and save to the library. Took me an age to find the info to work through all those bits so I could end up with a reasonably light Cr2 for extensive use in graphic projects, and as time has gone on more tools have come along to make this process much easier.
You've been able to do this kind of character creation from inside Poser for some time, but I'm not sure if there are even now (m)any comprehensive and up-to-date step-by-step guides for doing this - or how easy they would be to find by the new user.

I still use Poser renders as basic painting references from time to time (mostly to get a rough idea of how light falls across a form), but it's moved a long way on from being limited to this usage now. I've exhibited pretty much un-post-worked Poser renders in small exhibitions on several occasions.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

All my figures are based on V3RR, M3RR, or a V3RR/M3RR Head combined with SP3 or David Body mesh. That means overall vertex count is 45.000 or less. The lower resulution head is practically unnoticeable and I still have full body mesh resolution for sculpting.

Left to right:

1. SP3 "LoRes".
   Derived from V3RR given SP3's shape.
   Mostly a bigger head, new neck and better shoulders and other minor rigging improvements.
   Keep her around to quickly create fully clothed "casual" figures with fused on clothing.
   Despite being called "Petite", her proportions are actually that of a pretty tall woman.

2. HANA. V3RR/SP3 hybrid.
   Sculpted in ZBrush after a real woman.
   No "artistic license" here.
   Except for the face which "just happened", I made her as accurate as I could. She just is that thin.
   Uses heavily modifed SP3 rigging.

3. Aneta.
   Yep, looks like a V3/MIKI hybrid, but she isn't.
   Again using V3RR/SP3 mesh.
   Sculpted in ZBrush after the same real life girl MIKI was sculpted after, so they look similar.
   Only my version is more exact, as I didn't ballon her boobs. ;-)
   The rigging is again based on SP3 with a lot of changes.

Left to right: 1. Mr Big. M3RR/David mesh. Shameless copy of Rikishi using his rig. Rikishi is pretty much perfect, but I wanted to use M3's head morphs and Unimesh textures.

2. Martin.
   M3RR/David mesh.
   Older, completely "average" guy.
   Modified David rigging.

3. M3RR "normal".
   M3RR made to look less towering.
   Use him mostly to quickly create clothed "casual" figures.

Love Mr Big - these are exactly the extremes of characters I love - thanks for posting these.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

CORA x3

Again a V3RR/SP3 hybrid.
SP3 is way too tall so the idea was to create a variation with truly "average" or "below average"  height.
Still kept her overall sculpting so that I could easily modify SP3 or V3 clothing.
Lots of rigging improvements.

And as you can see, she's still a "tiny" bit versatile.

;-)

"Love Mr Big - these are exactly the extremes of characters I love - thanks for posting these."

Thank you, carodan.
Yes, the extremes are surely the most fun.

He first started as an M3RR/Rikishi  hybrid, but I really wasn't happy with that.
So I  started resculpting/regrouping David.
He's NOT a "bodybag" but was sculpted by hand.
Still he fits fine into Rikishi's clothes.

Well, I have to say that I'm getting really interested in this concept of an end user character development kit consisting of multiple rigged base figures that share one or two core meshes ( male and female presumably).

It sounds like it'd be quite an undertaking as a project though - one for a serious collaboratation of several creators over quite a period of time, and requiring some thoughtful planning to provide a cohesive system.

I think, as Phantom3d and others have suggested, tools like Wardrobe Wizard and the morph transfer script would start to make this quite a realististic proposition in terms of an ensured clothing support.

I'd love to see something as ambitious as this realised as a solid development.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Ok, I don't think it's legal to post any pictures of the kid's mesh, but after viewing the video from Phantom3d, I was very hopeful.  I had never seen the "necksmooy"  little adjustable line in Poser.

I managed to fix the arms and legs scaling using that method, it's fantastic.  However, I saw no actual parameters being changed in either the Joint Editor palette or the Parameters palette.  So my first question is, what exactly am I changing when I grab and stretch/compress that little line?  Is there anywhere I can see that parameter and adjust it manually?  When the joints are set up, is that an automatic joint parameter like twist/bend/side-side, or can I set up another one, like necksmooZ?

Why?  Because the neck was a different issue.  The neck in the toddler morph of the Kids is y-scaled down, not stretched out, and for some reason that's making the neck, in Poser (not Daz), squish out along the z-axis (didn't seem to affect the x-axis).  Nothing I did with the necksmooy joint (with or without falloff spheres) would correct that. 

Is there anywhere else I could look and adjust?  (hmm... perhaps I should duplicate this on a public figure and post?)  Is Antonia available to everyone?

Of course it's okay to post pictures of the mesh. It's distributing the mesh that they kinda frown on.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Thanks Sean,  :)

I'll put together some pics and post the issues.  I'm passing out shortly, so it will be 24 hrs.

Indi.

Quote - I always find it fascinating when people say they want "versatility", because it usually means "how big can I make these titties?" Let's face it, there's not a whole lot of versatility out there -- it's like the old New Yorker cartoon of the couple telling their friends, "We never go to restaurants or movies or museums or plays... but it's nice to know they're there."

Some guys like them big, some guys like them little, or no tittes at all.
See, its' all about the titties.

[Kitty ducking and running...........]

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

Quote - Of course, dynamic clothing is always an option ;o). You can make a piece of clothing made for one figure fit another with just a little time on rescaling and maybe a magnet or two here and there. Nope, it's not as simple as conforming clothing and it ain't gonna happen in one click and one minute, but in the end, it looks much better.

Laurie (a fan of dynamic clothing)

I'm a fan too, and many of the OBj files for clothing Crs in your runtime can be converted to cloth. and it sizes good too , thin to fat ,muscular and so on.

In case anyone is interested about the latest on the scaling thing:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=137495&start=231

___
Renderosity Store  Personal nick: Conniekat8
Hi, my name is "No, Bad Kitteh, NOO", what's yours? 

The lack of full Poser compatibility would make more sense if Daz Studio had essential features like IK or a cloth engine that wasn't just a ploy to sell exclusive content. Of course, in a serious business, there is probably the realization that most people use Daz Studio and Poser to render junk anyway. Why bother with advanced features with a user base that largely doesn't know the difference between high quality and junk? The dolls are to be cranked out, purchased and largely forgotten a short time later. People want things regardless of whether they will use them.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&amp;userid=323368

Quote - The lack of full Poser compatibility would make more sense if Daz Studio had essential features like IK or a cloth engine that wasn't just a ploy to sell exclusive content. Of course, in a serious business, there is probably the realization that most people use Daz Studio and Poser to render junk anyway. Why bother with advanced features with a user base that largely doesn't know the difference between high quality and junk? The dolls are to be cranked out, purchased and largely forgotten a short time later. People want things regardless of whether they will use them.

Sadly, you're right. We dont let things develop or mature much; we just grab up the next bright n shiny, put it in a couple of renders, and then move on to the next one.

For the bulk of my work, I've been using the same mesh for almost six years. Thanks to WW, I have a huge wardrobe for it and -- now, thanks to Phantom -- I'll be able to fine tune that even more. My investment in Poser stuff these days is next to zero, and I'm pushing out even more work than I used to.

Yes, I have a frightful number of CDs of Poser materials (dont ask how many: right now it's almost embrassing), most of which I bought on a whim, with the thought of "gosh, I know I'll use that somehow!". And someitmes I actually do LOL: it took a few years, but I finally got around to finishing that Gilgamesh series with things Id bought almost four years before.

But I look at the interchangable skins and interchangable head morphs and I think "Do people actually buy this stuff" Maybe they do. Maybe that;s how the market is designed to work, like a e-version of McDonalds.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - I managed to fix the arms and legs scaling using that method, it's fantastic.  However, I saw no actual parameters being changed in either the Joint Editor palette or the Parameters palette.  So my first question is, what exactly am I changing when I grab and stretch/compress that little line?  Is there anywhere I can see that parameter and adjust it manually?  When the joints are set up, is that an automatic joint parameter like twist/bend/side-side, or can I set up another one, like necksmooZ?

Go back into the Joint Editor, after changing. You should see a different bottom start value

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson