templargfx opened this issue on Apr 27, 2010 · 103 posts
templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 6:42 PM
Hi Everyone!
Im looking for honest opinions on what in this image stands out as unrealistic or out of place. Although I'm not trying to go for "hyper realism" I do want it to look very realistic.
A few things I noticed :
Fingers are not resting on the car
black "creases" on the car should be same color as body, not black
underside of bumber should be same color as body
V4's bum should be flatter on the bonnet
car body reflections should be slightly stronger (opinions on this?)
thanks for any feedback!
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
wolf359 posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 7:32 PM
the skin texture on the V-chick looks uber fake compared to rest of textures in the image. IMHO.
KimberlyC posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 7:35 PM
I agree with Wolf. Something doesn't sit well with me with her skin.
_____________________
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ockham posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 7:43 PM
I think the hands would look more natural if the fingers were pointing more outward
than back. Roughly aimed toward the side mirrors.
The straight-back position you've used is possible but would be painful.
Skin and paint look OK to me, given that the overall lighting feels "cloudy" or shadowed
by buildings.
wolf359 posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:01 PM
There is nearly a total lack of contrast on the figures skin compared to the car & the stonemason set, her legs almost appear to have a pink "glow" like some sort of Forced SSS shader is in play.
Cheers
templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:19 PM
Im new to using VSS, any tips on how to fix the skin? it looks really nice up close, Im using Lana Elite, I might try using one of the other Elite skins. I'll post another image soon with the above changes
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:26 PM
I noticed the skin, too, and suspected it was VSS.
Because the rest of the scene is not GC'd you are using a lot of light, which nevertheless gave ockham the impression it is a cloudy day.
Meanwhile, the figure looks like she's inside a furnace.
I'd either GC the whole setup, or drop the GC down on the figure. You're basically using extra light to do the work GC should be doing, so the figure is basically double GC'd.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:27 PM
so thats just modifying the Gamma number to a lower number from 2.2 on each skin material?
can I edit the prop material and re-synch? If so, how do I get it to only sync V4, and not the car, the buildings and the sky?
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
hborre posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:28 PM
Which Poser version are you using and are you using gamma correction? Your light intensity is way too high. Show us some settings, i.e., material room, light sets, etc.
bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:29 PM
Also, the reflection on the car doesn't look like it has a realistic Fresnel-effect, and is unbalanced because it isn't GC'd. The chrome on the mirror (?) on the fender also suffers from lack of GC.
Overall, the lighting isn't balanced because of GC problems. Parts look like they're in bright sun, others like a cloudy day.
What version of Poser is this? If Poser 8 or better, I'd be using IDL, too. I'm guessing this is IBL+AO, which ain't so great for realism.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:32 PM
Quote - so thats just modifying the Gamma number to a lower number from 2.2 on each skin material?
can I edit the prop material and re-synch? If so, how do I get it to only sync V4, and not the car, the buildings and the sky?
Yeah, edit the gamma in the Template_Skin material of the control prop and re-sync.
VSS will only affect materials it knows about, so it's not likely to touch other figures. But if that is a concern, you want to edit the "Apply Rules" material. It has a node in it called
If you have Poser 8, I'd use 1.3 and I'd use HSV ETM as a substitute for the remaining GC - it would help the whole scene. I use the D3D Render Firefly dialog and set the tone mapping gain and exponent both to 1.3. (I experimented a lot to find an easy-to-remember beginner's setting for HSVETM and it's 1.3 all the way.)
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hborre posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:34 PM
Synchronization will not affect the other models unless they share the same material zones listed within the VSSProp.
Edit: Oops, I'm cross-posting with BB.
templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:37 PM
Im using Poser Pro 2010 my render settings are :
Ray Trace : on
Pixel Samples : 5
Min Shading : 0.005
IDL : on
Intensity : 1
Bounces : 5
Samples : 498
Irradiance Cache : 60
There is one infinite light source, at 75% with the slightest hint of yellow (like 1%) and a HDR Enviro Sphere of a sunny, mostly clear day using Ambient at 0.5 (no diffuse or spec)
I am absolutely clueless with GC, I will make the changes you said above, but I dont know how to gamma correct stuff that doesnt have a gamme node like vss :S
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:41 PM
Whoa backup.
Pro 2010? OK set the GC in the figure to 1.
Use render GC at 2.2. Forget what I said about HSV ETM.
The Envsphere with IDL will do a good job if you enable render GC. Everything will get more in line.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:45 PM
I don't know what luminance is found in your EnvSphere HDR image, but if you want the same "exposure" as the original scene, your ambient value should be 1. This is not always true, but generally it is. I'd have to see the image to know for sure.
Are you using my EnvironmentSphere? Are you using my shader for it? If so, set the Gamma In = 1 and the Gamma Out = 1.
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templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:48 PM
Im just using the Dimension3D sphere that comes with PP2010 with inverted normals scaled up
I set the ambient to 0.5 because it practically removed the shadows completely otherwise!
I've set the gamma on the skin to 1.0 and turned on the tone mapping thing (started rendering before you posted that)
the original image already have GC turned on at 2.2 (it defaults to on)
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:48 PM
It's funny that you posted this today. I was just reminded yesterday that I had promised to post a sample scene showing how to light an outdoor setup with IDL. You're doing it.
This is just the sort of activity I love to get sucked into. Unfortunately, I have a big out-of-town meeting all day tomorrow so won't be around much to participate until tommorow night.
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templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:50 PM
Ever since GI was "unlocked" in poser 7 ages ago, all I do is cars outdoor now :p
thankyou for all the help so far, the render is at 50% shouldnt be long now. I lowered the IDL settings a little to make it render faster as this is just a test
EDIT :
http://www.italianvillarentals.com/countryside/torre-orlando/big/SphericalImageCastello.jpg
Im using this as my enviro image
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 8:58 PM
That image isn't HDR - no JPEG is HDR. It may have been made by assembling multiple exposures (an HDR construction technique) but it's not high dynamic range. HDR images are in HDR or EXR format, not JPEG.
I'll set it up on my Environment Sphere and see how it works.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 9:02 PM
Note: Setting the EnvSphere ambient to .5 would explain why the chrome looks weak. It wasn't lack of GC - it was lack of a bright sky to reflect.
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templargfx posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 9:07 PM
skin gamma at 1.0
tone mapping (hsv) 1.3 1.3
Repositioned V4, fixed the hand positions
now that we've (read you) figured out it was gamma in the skin doing the damage, I will try it again at 1.0 on the next render.
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 9:11 PM
And no tone mapping.
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FaeMoon posted Tue, 27 April 2010 at 10:46 PM
There should be a wind machine and she should be laying on the hood of the car with Whitesnake
playing in the background?
sorry.. I just couldn't help myself!
The hands do look better turned out. :)
kobaltkween posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 1:28 AM
her skin looks like she has sunburn. make the VSS PR3 SSS color less red and more yellow. remember, it's got to fake both dermal as well as subdermal scattering, and most textures have a lot of burned in SSS.
templargfx posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 1:57 AM
Any thoughts on this last version before I start the big render tonight?
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
ShawnDriscoll posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 2:50 AM
Quote - Click to get a slightly larger version
Hi Everyone!
Im looking for honest opinions on what in this image stands out as unrealistic or out of place. Although I'm not trying to go for "hyper realism" I do want it to look very realistic.
A few things I noticed :
Fingers are not resting on the car
black "creases" on the car should be same color as body, not black
underside of bumber should be same color as body
V4's bum should be flatter on the bonnet
car body reflections should be slightly stronger (opinions on this?)thanks for any feedback!
The skin is too pastel and glowing. Ruins the photo. But skin is more difficult to achieve than car metal.
ShawnDriscoll posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 2:53 AM
Quote - Here is the latest, I think its looking pretty darn awesome now thanks to you lot!
Any thoughts on this last version before I start the big render tonight?
The car and the skin look better. Only thing left to do now is get rid of the figure and use one that looks more human and less alien. V4 may be to blame. No human has eyes that big.
WandW posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 6:24 AM
There is a bit too much shadow under her left hand-I'd try moving it even closer so it intersects the hood a bit. Otherwise it is pretty awsome.
Thanx for starting an informative thread. :)
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 7:22 AM
It looks good, tg.
You might try a few more experiments with the VSS parameters.
When rendering with IDL, I usually bump up the PM:Shine a bit, because there is so much more diffuse lighting from the IDL, it needs to be compensated. If IDL included specular effects, we'd not have to do that. But it doesn't. So we get no shine from the sky.
Try PM:Shine = .4.
You might also set PM:SSS down to .3 to remove some of the pink.
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templargfx posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 7:25 AM
thanks for the tips bagginsbill. I will mess with shine and sss and when I find some good/interesting settings I'll re-render for feedback :p
you dont know how great it is to have you guys here!
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bob1965 posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 9:38 PM
Coming along well, too bad you had to dislocate her right knee to get that pose.:biggrin:
Personally I would add a little muscle flex to the left thigh and calf since both are under tension keeping her rear from sliding off the vintage metal.
The easiest way I've found to compensate for the problem joints is to find a photo of a similar pose and create a brush of the problem area to use as a guide in postworking the render.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 10:05 PM
You inspired me to revisit my car materials, particularly the paint.
I included a figure not for artistic purposes, but just to make sure I don't send the lighting into lala land. It's all too easy to push the light in the wrong direction and adjust the car shader to match. I know what skin is supposed to look like and I know the VSS shader is right, so how the figure looks tells me I have the lighting right.
Then I adjust the paint shader under those conditions.
Here's my white.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 10:05 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 10:06 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 10:07 PM
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Vestmann posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 10:35 PM
Those car materials are pretty awesome. And the surroundings remind of a certain outdoor tutorial scene I remember someone talking about (nudge, nudge ;)
bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 10:52 PM
Thanks V. Truth is, there's nothing to it. I have one infinite light at 75% and the environment sphere, just as TG is doing, rendered in Poser Pro 2010 with IDL and render GC turned on.
In Poser 7 with shader GC and IBL+AO, it's about the same.
In Poser 8, without render GC, things get trickier. Shader GC with IDL is the problem case.
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Vestmann posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 11:05 PM
Gotcha. And you have a HDR sky map on the EnvSphere? That puddle material looks mighty tasty. How do you do that?
gamedever posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 11:07 PM
BB: That covers daylight, sure. But I've been having issue getting good natural night light, still.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 11:25 PM
Quote - Gotcha. And you have a HDR sky map on the EnvSphere? That puddle material looks mighty tasty. How do you do that?
The sky map I used is LDR.
Here's how I made the puddle shader. Using matmatic, I made a pavement shader, a water shader, and I mixed them. LOL It's just a test - not finished.
antigamma = PM(1, "Gamma")
gamma = 1 / antigamma def View(x):
return EmptySurface(Alternate_Diffuse = x)
def AGC(x):
return x ** antigamma
def GC(x):
return x ** gamma
def PuddleMask(s=8):
m = Clamp(3 * FractalSum(s, s, s, 2, 0, .45, .999))
return m
def PavementSurface():
clr = PMC(.3, "Pavement Color")
clr1 = AGC(clr)
clr2 = AGC(clr + .1)
dc = Spots(clr1, clr2, .1, 0, .25, 0, 2)
diffuse = Clay(dc, .8, .5)
output = GC(diffuse)
s = EmptySurface()
s.Alternate_Diffuse = output
s.Bump = .1 * FractalSum(.2, .2, .2, 8, 0, .5, .7)
return s, diffuse
def WaterSurface(under = BLACK, ripple = 0):
s = EmptySurface()
fresnel = TrueFresnel(1.33)
reflect = AGC(Reflect())
output = Blend(under, reflect, fresnel)
output = GC(output)
if ripple:
if isNode(ripple):
s.Bump = ripple
else:
s.Bump = ripple * FractalSum(1, 1, 1, 2, 0, .5, .93)
s.Alternate_Diffuse = output
return s
pavement, pdif = PavementSurface()
water = WaterSurface(pdif, .1)
refract = AGC(Refract(0, 1))
under = EmptySurface(Alternate_Diffuse = GC(refract))
refpuddles = Mix(under, WaterSurface(refract, .1), PuddleMask())
outputs += [
"Test", Mix(pavement, water, PuddleMask())
]
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Vestmann posted Wed, 28 April 2010 at 11:39 PM
Okay thanks BB. I still haven't taken a proper look at Matmatic but I guess it's high time I do.
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 12:08 AM
Like moonlight?
Here I set my EnvSphere luminance to .01. It's not the best image, though - others might be better.
Using parameter dials, I set the infinite light color to .9, .9, 1, making it a bit blue. I set intensity to 10%.
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gamedever posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 12:29 AM
Cool. So adjusting the luminance is a good idea, then. Thanks!
templargfx posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 12:43 AM
Heres Nissan Cobalth Blue
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
templargfx posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 12:45 AM
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
templargfx posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:09 AM
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 8:22 AM
Quote - I've noticed in your images, your tyre rubber looks a bit wrong, here is my rubber shader
Not my rubber - that's how SM shipped it. I only set the paint, chrome, and glass. The rest is still whatever it came with.
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Latexluv posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 1:36 PM
BB, what am I doing wrong? I copy and pasted the matmatic script you gave above into Notepad and saved out as an mm1. I put the file in my MatmaticDemos folder in both Materials and Pose and then I ran the compile script. I got this error message.
verbose 1
Processing script C:Poser ProRuntimeLibrariesposeMatmaticDemosBasicPavement Puddle.mm1 -> pose
MATMATIC Script Error: name 'PM' is not defined
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "c:program filescurious labsposer 6runtimepythonmatmaticcompiler.py", line 233, in processScript
File "C:Poser ProRuntimeLibrariesposeMatmaticDemosBasicPavement Puddle.mm1", line 1, in ?
antigamma = PM(1, "Gamma")
NameError: name 'PM' is not defined
So, what am I doing wrong?
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
IsaoShi posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:06 PM
Quote - So, what am I doing wrong?
Whatever it is, I'm getting the same error. Looking into it now...
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
hborre posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:17 PM
Sounds like a Parmatic node issue.
IsaoShi posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:31 PM
Quote - Sounds like a Parmatic node issue.
Yes, it's the Matmatic function used to create a shader node with a name that is recognisable to Parmatic - in this case "PM:Gamma".
I have some Matmatic scripts somewhere that I know work fine in this respect, I'm just trying to find one of them, but I went off on a tangent, as I so often do. (To tell the truth, it was closer to a radial).
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
Latexluv posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:34 PM
Okay, so it's not just me. Maybe someone can figure out what's going on. I've tried copying and pasting matmatic scripts before from the forums and from the Node Cult and haven't gotten any of them to compile right on my system. I have no problem if BB attaches a matmatic script to a post as a text file. Only when he or someone else posts the code and I manually copy and paste into Notepad.
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
IsaoShi posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:46 PM
I've added the definitions of the functions PM and PMC to the above script, but now it's falling over on the function TrueFresnel().
At a guess I'd say that BB has built these functions into his own version of Matmatic, and we don't have them (?).
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:54 PM
Sorry I took so long to answer - I have many meetings lately and I'm not in here as often sometimes.
I probably should have mentioned this with the posting...
Izi is right - I have some new functions in matmatic that the script is using. Many in fact. I'm preparing to release matmatic version 1.1!!!
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 2:55 PM
Here is TrueFresnel
def TrueFresnel(ior):
n1 = 1.0
n2 = ior
nr = n1 / n2
nrsq = nr * nr
cosAi = EdgeBlend(1, 0, 1)
if isNode(ior) or ior < 1:
cosAt = sqrt(Max(1 - nrsq * (1 - cosAi2), 0))
else:
cosAt = sqrt(1 - nrsq * (1 - cosAi2))
s1 = n1 * cosAi
s2 = n2 * cosAt
p1 = n1 * cosAt
p2 = n2 * cosAi
Rs = ((s1 - s2) / (s1 + s2)) ** 2
Rp = ((p1 - p2) / (p1 + p2)) ** 2
R = .5 * (Rs + Rp)
return R
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
IsaoShi posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:02 PM
Thanks BB! And my stock phrase: "No need for sorry".
Latexluv, here is the complete script, tested, including those missing functions.
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
Latexluv posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:06 PM
Thanks Izi! I'll give that a try. I put together a scene with the P8 car to test out the discussion in this thread.
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
Latexluv posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:19 PM
PuddleTest worked, Izi, thanks!
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:24 PM
In matmatic 1.1, PM and PMC are more interesting. Either moves all the nodes over two columns and places the parameter nodes down the left side. I used to do that with a hack, but now it is built into matmatic.
There is also PM2 to place nodes in the second column, and PM3 to place them in the third column.
Regardless of how many parameter columns you use, there will always be a blank column before the surface node. This leaves some extra space for you to manually add nodes that get plugged into the parameters.
Any other ideas I should implement?
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Vestmann posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:48 PM
...if I could jump in here with a quick question to BB and you who are proficient with Matmatic.
I've been reading the docs for matmatic and I´m at the basic stage. I'm confident that I´ll be able to understand the Python programming bit but where I start to fall off is when the actual nodes come to play. (okay this is gonna be a silly question but...) Should I play more with the basic nodes in Poser before attempting Matmatic scripting? My only experience in the material room has been with VSS and that mostly been moving image maps around and setting up blender nodes. So what node in particular should I familiarize myself with before tackling basic Matmatic scripting?
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:54 PM
Blinn, Diffuse, Reflect
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Vestmann posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 3:57 PM
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 4:13 PM
Oh - and of course Math and Color_Math, although there's nothing to understanding the node's themselves. Rather, you need to know when to add two things or multiply two things. And matmatic will almost always take care of building those for you anyway, or eliminating them when there is a way to do so.
For example, the expression a + b may result in a Math, or a Color_Math, or nothing at all. Depends on what a and b are set to.
a = RED
b = BLUE
a+b = MAGENTA
a = 1
b = 3
a+b = 4
a = Diffuse()
b = Blinn()
a+b = a Color_Math:Add node connected to a and b
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Vestmann posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 4:36 PM
Quote - Oh - and of course Math and Color_Math, although there's nothing to understanding the node's themselves. Rather, you need to know when to add two things or multiply two things. And matmatic will almost always take care of building those for you anyway, or eliminating them when there is a way to do so.
For example, the expression a + b may result in a Math, or a Color_Math, or nothing at all. Depends on what a and b are set to.
a = RED
b = BLUEa+b = MAGENTA
a = 1
b = 3
a+b = 4a = Diffuse()
b = Blinn()
a+b = a Color_Math:Add node connected to a and b
Ok. thank you. This is slowly creeping in. I will need to sit down and focus my whole attention on this (something I've been finding hard to do lately). I'll take a close look at this after the weekend.
BTW, I found your sequins material yesterday and it kept me up all last night. What a fantastic set of materials. It really makes a huge difference with dynamic clothing. I´m waiting on a render now that I hope will do the material justice. Thanks for that one! Oh and your light meter is real light safer as well (burum boom ka tisshh!). Thanks for that one too!
IsaoShi posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 5:10 PM
Quote - Any other ideas I should implement?
Do we already have access to the Texture Manager settings in Matmatic?
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 8:53 PM
Quote - > Quote - Any other ideas I should implement?
Do we already have access to the Texture Manager settings in Matmatic?
I was going to say no, based on how I thought this worked, from the original Poser Pro. But I figured I should check it with Poser Pro 2010. Good thing I did. Either I never understood how this worked, or it changed in 2010.
When I looked into this back when PPro came out, I thought I verified that the gamma setting is not stored in the material file. I recall comparing saved mt5 files after making different gamma settings and I found nothing in the material about the setting. But 2010 clearly does store the gamma value in the material if you set it to an explicit value. It does not set it if you leave it at the "use render gamma" setting.
Now this works a little strangely. I loaded an image and saved the material without setting gamma, i.e. leaving the "user render gamma" setting. Nothing is written in the material file about this. Let's call this A.
Then I changed it to explicitly gamma = 1.5 and saved it. The file has an extra line in it saying "gamma 1.5". It is not stored in the same style as other parameters - it's just sitting there naked. OK. Let's call this B.
I then re-loaded A and checked the value in the GUI. It was still 1.5. Hmmm.
I did a File/New to start a new scene. I then tried loading A again and it still said it was 1.5. But remember, when I saved A, the setting was "use render gamma", not 1.5.
I then closed Poser and started it again. This time, loading A gives me "use render gamma".
Loading B then A once again I'm stuck at 1.5.
I then set it to 2 and saved a third file, C.
Loading B or C would always produce the expected value.
But loading A always leaves the gamma value at what it was before for that image file.
So - I can't promise that you are able to load a material and get the "use render gamma" setting. It will depend on what you did before you tried to load that material. It seems that Poser remembers (during a session) how you last explicitly set the gamma for the image file itself, and loading a material with an ImageMap that doesn't say what gamma to use results in the existing value being retained. I find this odd.
No matter. I think in the use cases where this is important (bump maps, transparency maps) you're going to get the behavior you want because you'll be setting the gamma to 1 and that always seems to apply.
I'll add it to matmatic 1.1.
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templargfx posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 9:03 PM
Any feedback on my last image? kinda derailed my thread there BB
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 9:46 PM
It should look like this.
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templargfx posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 11:22 PM
heres another, using a HDR image from Dosch as the env sphere (at 1.0)
I also changed the out-of-camera buildings so its more surrounded
pixel samples at 1.0 here as these small renders take a couple of hours as it is :p
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 11:39 PM
The car looks good. The lighting is still a teeny bit underexposed, but that's easily corrected in postwork. If it were a lot underexposed, I'd raise the light level.
The figure's skin still lacks specular. It looks to me like you haven't raised the Shine since I suggested to do so.
I'd hide the car and hair (for speed) and do some tuning with just the VSS parameters.
Maybe I'd drop the Diffuse Reflectivity a bit, too.
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Latexluv posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 11:40 PM
Quote - > Quote - Here I set my EnvSphere luminance to .01. It's not the best image, though - others might be better.
Using parameter dials, I set the infinite light color to .9, .9, 1, making it a bit blue. I set intensity to 10%.
Okay??? Luminance??? Do you mean the ambient of the EnvSphere?
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
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bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 11:41 PM
Quote -
Okay??? Luminance??? Do you mean the ambient of the EnvSphere?
Yes. In my EnvSphere EnvPanoramic shader there is an HSV node. You adjust the luminance using the "Value" in the HSV node. Otherwise, if you're just connecting the image to Ambient_Color, then you'd control it with Ambient_Value.
I like using the HSV node because I like to adjust saturation as well sometimes.
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templargfx posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 11:45 PM
I set the PM:shine level to 2.0 do you suggest higher?
EDIT
lowering diffuse reflectivity seems to help. ill do another render.
please continue to discuss what you were discussing, just an odd bit of feedback on my image would be nice (as thats why I created the thread :p)
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Thu, 29 April 2010 at 11:51 PM
Nah. I don't like thread drift myself. Makes it hard to link to things or find them. Matmatic discussions should go elsewhere.
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Latexluv posted Fri, 30 April 2010 at 12:07 AM
Quote - > Quote -
Okay??? Luminance??? Do you mean the ambient of the EnvSphere?
Yes. In my EnvSphere EnvPanoramic shader there is an HSV node. You adjust the luminance using the "Value" in the HSV node. Otherwise, if you're just connecting the image to Ambient_Color, then you'd control it with Ambient_Value.
I like using the HSV node because I like to adjust saturation as well sometimes.
Ah ha! This just fixed the problem I've been having in rendering M4 this week. I was getting to the point where I hated all the M4 textures that I have (and that's not very many), because he was rendering so pale and blown out. Making that one adjustment to the EnvSphere made him look more normal in coloring. Sorry for the subject drift!
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
IsaoShi posted Fri, 30 April 2010 at 3:36 AM
Quote - pixel samples at 1.0 here as these small renders take a couple of hours as it is :p
A couple of hours each render? Your patience is doing you a disservice!
You could take Min shading rate up to 1 or even 2 and your test renders would be much faster without, I think, altering the paint shader much. I'd sooner do that than lose the anti-aliasing by reducing pixel samples. Giving your model a headshave would also help a lot. Or at least make her hair invisible to raytracing.
Sorry about the drift...
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
templargfx posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 7:46 AM
Ive adjusted the shine and the diffuse in VSS
I replaced the environment image with Dosch's free 50mb HDR sphere map and the lighting came out much more realisticly I think.
I also replaced much of the surroundings with some buildings from one of Stonemasons other products
I think this looks about as good as it gets, in the final I am going to use a little dof, but I havent played with that yet
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
IsaoShi posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 8:41 AM
I think the car looks terrific, except for the orange indicators and repeaters. Usually these are a hard, shiny, semi-transparent plastic, which should at least have some specular reflections. Here they look dull and completely opaque.
Personally, I would still not be happy about the lack of specular on the model, particularly her legs. They look very flat and lifeless to me. But perhaps the model is not your main focus.
"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of
what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki
Murakami)
templargfx posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 9:05 AM
I agree the indicators need work, there are just a simple color at the moment. the old material I had is terrible so I need to make a new one.
This image is sortof a "promo" to the re-release of my 158 Car Materials freebie (its a few more now) that I have gone over and made some adjustments to so they work in P8 with IDL.
That being said, the image is not all about the promo! I would appreciate any ideas on the skin, here is the current VSS configuration I am using :
PM:Shine 0.25
PM:Shine Spread : 0.7
PM:Shine Level : 2.0
PM:Diffuse Reflectivity : 0.5
PM:SSS 0.3
PM:SSS Color Default Red
PM:SSS Falloff 1.0
PM:SSS Boost 1.0
Texture Set : Daz3D Elite Series Lana
I'll try increasing PM:Shine and see what happens!
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bagginsbill posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 9:28 AM
The intensity of the Shine (and Shine Level) is mediated by the specular map. If the specular map is black, you'll never get any shine.
If there is no specular map, VSS uses the red component of the color map. Because the starting luminance of maps is different, this means the overall shine luminance is different from one texture set to another.
So it's really difficult to tell you what value to use. If the skin texture is very light, 2.0 can be ridiculous. If the skin texture is very dark, you may need 20 not 2.
PM:Shine is a master specular parameter that simulaneously adjusts Shine Spread and Shine Level. (In opposite directions)
For the purpose of "calibrating" the shader to your texture, just use Shine Level.
Increasing shine will decrease spread, and increase level.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 9:33 AM
Regarding the car material, it doesn't look right, if I understand what I'm seeing correctly, i.e. I think I'm seeing reflections of the sky.
If you have HDR sky, then the reflections of any surface turned away from the camera should be much brighter than what I see.
Are you using the true Fresnel equations, or just something you eyeballed? I used to eyeball it, and it was always off. Now I only use true Fresnel values.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 10:03 AM
Hmm. Scratch what I said about it not looking right. It really depends on the relative luminance of the sky photo versus the local lighting.
In real life, it can look like that, or it can look different. Sigh.
Just put a reflectivity knob in for the user.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 11:46 AM
Nevertheless, here's something to look at.
The paint reflections of the sky seem brighter to me in my image than in yours, and my glass seems darker. Mine are using the Fresnel reflectance equations I got from Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_equations
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SamTherapy posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 5:10 PM
Not read any of the above posts, just to give my impressions:
Skin looks over saturated and doesn't react to light correctly.
Way too much stepping in curved areas.
I think that's enough to go on.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
templargfx posted Tue, 04 May 2010 at 10:07 PM
are you commenting on the image in the first post, or the image I posted just above? I only ask because if its the image in the original post, some of these things may have been fixed
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
SamTherapy posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 12:20 AM
You ain't gonna like this...
Last image:
Over saturated, too dark (some of us still have real monitors which display proper colours), pose is horrible with way too much body parts sinking into other body parts, lighting and overall shading is a million times better but it's a crappy image mainly because the outfit looks dreadful. And what's with the 6 foot wide knee on a pin sized shin? Either the model or the pose (or both) needs to go.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
templargfx posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 1:11 AM
Im always open for feedback good or bad! I'll re-pose and dress v4 and give it a test, I think I'll try standing on the street behind the car...
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3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
templargfx posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 2:27 AM
BB : How do I use that true fresnel script you posted earlier?
I gotta say I like this one alot better
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
templargfx posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 2:51 AM
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
templargfx posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 5:06 AM
this image is of the other side of the model, the light is still behind (in the back of this shot) and the lighting on her skin is IDL at work
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
bob1965 posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 6:25 AM
Yeah, this is better than the heifer on the hood scene.
(4 wheeled vintage metal is to be sat IN not on!!)
templargfx posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 9:37 AM
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
hborre posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 9:46 AM
I think you got a winner.
Vestmann posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 10:13 AM
Quote - Here is a high res render, I think this is the winner, unless anyone has any last ideas
This is looks pretty awesome. One advise I'd give before doing the final render is raise the shadow samples for the sun light. It's very grainy at the moment. Apart from that, this looks perfect!
bob1965 posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 10:19 AM
Fix the parking light and blinker materials and you are there.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 12:05 PM
Quote - BB : How do I use that true fresnel script you posted earlier?
The TrueFresnel function takes an IOR as an argument, and returns a node tree that calculates the correct Reflection_Value to use. It implements the Fresnel equations exactly.
I used IOR=1.45 for car paint. Use IOR=1.33 for water. Use IOR=.75 for when you're underwater. Use 1.54 or thereabouts for paint. Use IOR=20 (approx) for softly shiny metal. Use IOR=40 for shiny metal (like chrome).
How you use the output of TrueFresnel depends on the material, and also depends on whether you're making a GC material. A full explanation is many pages.
But for plain paint, simplest version, without GC in the shader:
fresnel = TrueFresnel(1.45)
specular = Blinn(...) # whatever
diffColor = .5 * RED # or whatever
diffValue = .8 * (1 - fresnel) # Conservation of energy says if you're reflecting, you're not diffusing
s = Surface(diffColor, diffValue, 1, 0, Alternate_Specular = specular)
s.Reflection_Color = Reflect()
s.Reflection_Value = fresnel
For thin glass, there are multiple internal reflections that compound the Fresnel reflectivity. And since thin glass doesn't bend light enough to matter, we use transparency instead of refraction.
The function to generate thin-glass compound reflection is 2 * r / (1 + r), where r is the ordinary Fresnel reflectance.
fresnel = TrueFresnel(1.54)
fresnel = 2 * fresnel / (1 + fresnel)
s = Surface(1, 0, 1, 0)
s.Transparency = fresnel
s.Reflection_Color = Reflect()
s.Reflection_Value = 1
Of course you'd probably want to include a specular in that.
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ice-boy posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 1:42 PM
Quote - Here is a high res render, I think this is the winner, unless anyone has any last ideas
add the blinn node to the skin shader. it looks to dry.
ice-boy posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 1:43 PM
Quote - > Quote - BB : How do I use that true fresnel script you posted earlier?
The TrueFresnel function takes an IOR as an argument, and returns a node tree that calculates the correct Reflection_Value to use. It implements the Fresnel equations exactly.
I used IOR=1.45 for car paint. Use IOR=1.33 for water. Use IOR=.75 for when you're underwater. Use 1.54 or thereabouts for paint. Use IOR=20 (approx) for softly shiny metal. Use IOR=40 for shiny metal (like chrome).
How you use the output of TrueFresnel depends on the material, and also depends on whether you're making a GC material. A full explanation is many pages.
But for plain paint, simplest version, without GC in the shader:
fresnel = TrueFresnel(1.45)
specular = Blinn(...) # whatever
diffColor = .5 * RED # or whatever
diffValue = .8 * (1 - fresnel) # Conservation of energy says if you're reflecting, you're not diffusing
s = Surface(diffColor, diffValue, 1, 0, Alternate_Specular = specular)
s.Reflection_Color = Reflect()
s.Reflection_Value = fresnelFor thin glass, there are multiple internal reflections that compound the Fresnel reflectivity. And since thin glass doesn't bend light enough to matter, we use transparency instead of refraction.
The function to generate thin-glass compound reflection is 2 * r / (1 + r), where r is the ordinary Fresnel reflectance.
fresnel = TrueFresnel(1.54)
fresnel = 2 * fresnel / (1 + fresnel)
s = Surface(1, 0, 1, 0)
s.Transparency = fresnel
s.Reflection_Color = Reflect()
s.Reflection_Value = 1Of course you'd probably want to include a specular in that.
does this shader have a lot of nodes? can you please post a screenshot? its easier for me to see teh nodes.
thank you.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 4:50 PM
Quote - does this shader have a lot of nodes?
It's like you don't even know who I am. LOL
OK I'll show you the nodes. Give me a minute.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 5:04 PM
This is the small version. If I were to make parameters and nodes for the IOR, the color, the shine, the reflectivity, the sparkles, etc., it becomes 50 nodes, not the 18 you see here.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 5:26 PM
You need to plug the Reflect node into Alternate_Diffuse to get that to work right.
fresnel = TrueFresnel(1.54)
fresnel = 2 * fresnel / (1 + fresnel)
s = Surface(1, 0, 1, 0)
s.Transparency = fresnel
s.Alternate_Diffuse = Reflect()
Here's what that glass looks like.
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templargfx posted Wed, 05 May 2010 at 10:37 PM
sorry I am still lost, could you post a complete true fresnel matmatic script BB?
EDIT : NVM, I got it! (I think :p) it outputted a material!
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
Latexluv posted Thu, 06 May 2010 at 4:17 PM
Unfortunately I couldn't get the fresnel glass to compile. Not sure what I'm not doing right. Yes, could you please post the true fresnel matmatic script? Glass and water are always interests of mine in Poser.
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
