Ok disclaimer: this post is not a pop at anyone or at any vendor.

( this has no reference to a post on another site)

I have been here for 7 years now and spent god knows how much on models.

But since poser 5. I really don’t think the standard of models has improved over the years. Ok there are the odd one or two out there that you look at and say wow. But on the whole it’s the same things over and over again.

To start with the market place.

Promo images, that are so dark you cannot see just what it is they are trying to sell.

Maybe they don’t want you to see.

Descriptions, if they are there at all are so vague you don’t know if it a model or poses or lights.

Then there’s the models themselves:

Some are so poor that I cannot see anyone wanting to pay good money for them, no matter how cheap they are.

A lot look like they are made out of square block with edges and corners so sharp they could be used in surgery.

Copies of other vendors work (generally cheaper but also a lot poorer)

Things for sale like a model of a light. Where there are lots of free model of lights out there that are much better.

Spaceship that have no visible doors, motorcycles that the rider could not put their feet down (maybe they have gyros on them)

Cars that when the doors open, the door pillars look about 1cm wide

In general models of things where the modeller has not taken the time to do the homework or get reference photos (google is your friend) they think they know what it looks like so thats ok.

So I ask you the customers.

Are you happy with the standard of models out there?
Do you think that standard has kept pace with the progress of the rendering software?
Do you think there should be standards here at Rendo that models have to meet before they can go on sale?
Or are you happy with the way things are and there’s no point anyway as things will not change anyway

I f you feel you want to reply to this post

Don’t name any products or vendors, don’t start any flame wars unless you’re a troll and want this post shut down

I haven't been doing Poser for very long, but it does seem that many of the models are the same thing. I have a few in my runtime that I am very happy with and then others that I load from my days of buying so much that I load up and think.. 'Wow, that doesn't look nearly as good here as it did over there.'

Some of the texturing on clothes I'm baffled by. It simply doesn't look like the type of cloth an outfit of that type would be made from. And you have to understand where I'm coming from on that statement. My mother sewed beautifully for years, made dresses, suits, made my wedding dress and bridesmaids dress and no one knew they were made and not bought. I also sew some, especially costumes - did some for theater and always made my daughter's Halloween costumes.

I'm very fabric sensitive, I suppose. Some of the prints and textures look like something dragged out of one of my grandmother's trunks, and not in a good way. They look like that horrid double knit that she used to use for cheap and easy quilts. Never something I'd wear and not something I'd put on my characters.

added I am a little confused by some sets that say they are models of ruins, but they have perfect edges, perfect textures. There are no broken parts, no fallen walls, no rubble, no columns broken in half. How is that a ruin? I didn't buy it of course as I found other props that suited my purpose, but it did make me wonder how much research the modeler did.

On the other hand I've been very happy with other models and clothing sets I've bought. They really have worked as advertised.

re: promo images.

Have you calibrated your monitor's gamma? I'm not seeing these sorts of problems in the promo images, nor I suspect, is the Rendo staff. As one who has been through the submission process, let me assure you, their QC is pretty stringent!

re: descriptions.

I don't buy what I don't have any information for. I suggest all buyers do the same. That's the quickest way to get meaningful descriptions. In defense of some of the vendors, English is not the mother tongue of some of them, so I cut slack if the descriptions are terse as long as I can see enough in the promo images.

To answer your questions:

Yes. There is enough good material out there that I can generally find what I want/need.
Yes. The quality of character textures has improved remarkably since V2, and substantially since V3. The use of complex shaders (pioneered here by the work of BB and others) has completely changed the way the newest generation of characters render.
There are. Let me assure you there are. Try submitting a product and see!
I'm happy with the way things are. I don't buy what I deem to be over-priced or poorly done products, and if I get one, I'm the first one at the refund window. To me, this free-market approach is the best encouragement we can give the merchants to produce quality.

In short, I'm hard-put to see what your displeasure is about.

I´m generally happy with product description at the store. Sure, there are a few product almost no description and I never buy those. It's not my loss. As for your questions:

Yes, for the most part. I would like to see more of good quality interior scenes but, as I'm sure someone will point out soon, it's a question of supply and demand. Also, the store cycles in a loop that follows the release of new Daz figures. V3 comes out and we get tons of fantasy gear, fetish clothing and model essentials along with new techniques and tricks. Then V4 comes out and it all starts over without moving much forward.
No. Mostly because vendors don't give enough attention to good materials!
No. Too much hassle and I don't like too many rules!
Things could always be better and, truth be told, I've gotten much more Poser value from Bagginsbill's freestuff and techniques then any product I've bought. There are so many schools of thought when it comes to Poser and there's no way to make all vendors conform to a straight line of thought. It is what it is...

Vestmann's Gallery

it's still as uneven as ever on the quality...

Specific vendors have certainly increased their quality over the years. On the other hand I've bought one or two things lately that are really quite poor, but those are exceptions.

One thing that really bugs me is that some vendors are clearly working with monitors that are wildly out of whack: the texture maps have been corrected to look OK on their systems, but on anything vaguely accurate they look terrible. It's such a common problem that I check the textures for everything I buy, and often have to correct those that are too blue, too red, too yellow, too dark, too light (etc. etc.).

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Well, with an MP as big as RO's you're bound to have many things of different quality ;o). As for the types of things? I believe the community as a whole is stuck. Seems that the more "sleazy" type stuff (for want of a better word) sells best, so that's what gets perpetuated. Oddly enough though, there are a lot of more "normal" (also for want of a better word) type clothes in the freebies section that also get a lot of downloads, yet don't sell well. Maybe people figure they'd rather pay for the former and not for the latter, or, they feel they must get some use out of what they payed for rather than what they didn't. Or, just maybe, vendors think that more normal clothing won't sell well, so they don't bother making it. It's hard to tell ;o).

Truth is though, there are a finite number of ideas one can come up with as far as what can be made for each genre...the store has been open for so long, me have have hit or are close to the brick wall as far as really original ideas are concerned ;o). I don't think we have as far as figures go, but we may have with clothing...lol.

Laurie

Quote - Specific vendors have certainly increased their quality over the years. On the other hand I've bought one or two things lately that are really quite poor, but those are exceptions.

One thing that really bugs me is that some vendors are clearly working with monitors that are wildly out of whack: the texture maps have been corrected to look OK on their systems, but on anything vaguely accurate they look terrible. It's such a common problem that I check the textures for everything I buy, and often have to correct those that are too blue, too red, too yellow, too dark, too light (etc. etc.).

Oh yes, the orange people of Poser World! I find almost every texture set I buy too yellow or orange. Luckily VSS can correct most materials settings although I often have to apply specular or bump maps manually after conversion. But I've also gotten into the habit of loading the texture maps into Photoshop and color adjust them. This became much easier when you could make color adjustment layers in PS. Like I said, most vendors don't do good material work. You might say I only buy texture maps, not materials when I buy a character. Hopefully more vendors will make use of VSS in the future. Bagginsbill has said recently that he won't make money demands for use of VSS, just the credit. Wonderful man, that Baggo!

Vestmann's Gallery

Hi,
Dont use much Human these days but
On non organic Props,sets& Vehicles ,especial Sci-Fi,
the Quality of poser content has plummeted Dramaticly in recent years.
I have yet to see anything in the sci-fi set arena that even comes close to the "RDL7" set from Sanctumart and how old is that?

and no Disrespect intended but those high quality Urban/City sets from a certain vendor are still very high quality ..but have gotten very repetitive to be quite frank.

Cheers.

My website

YouTube Channel

I'd say the quality hasn't improved. Maybe declined in some ways. The increased
focus on surfaces and optics has led to a decreased focus on basic shapes.

The artists who made good meshes 5 years ago are still making good meshes,
but I don't see any newer artists that impress me.

My python page
My ShareCG freebies

As an aside; I echo Wolf's statement that grungy/postapocalyptic/junkyard world sci-fi is too played out across the market, and I am greatly disappointed by this.

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Coming from a shader standpoint, I have seen some enlightened shaderwork on models, but it seems the bulk of those putting together nodes are still sort of eyeballing instead of using any of the information that has been made available here on how it really needs to be done.
As a result, we have an increasing number of people complaining on this forum about how things look... wrong.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Well, with an MP as big as RO's you're bound to have many things of different quality ;o). As for the types of things? I believe the community as a whole is stuck. Seems that the more "sleazy" type stuff (for want of a better word) sells best, so that's what gets perpetuated. Oddly enough though, there are a lot of more "normal" (also for want of a better word) type clothes in the freebies section that also get a lot of downloads, yet don't sell well.

Exactly! and Despite the seemingly endless supply
of V-chick hookerware outfits&puff lipped
"Jessica Alba"/Angelina Jolie" styled Character morph packs.
Merchants continue to produce more to feed the apparent demand.

And again not to Disparage any particular vendor
but there is a new release for V4 out right now
that is basicly just a redux of his previous releases
of this type of Sci -Fi Suit for V3/M3 .
So even those merchants known for high quality and Detail have sort of stagnated in their ideas.

My website

YouTube Channel

the models that come with poser 8 are considerable improvements over the models that
came with previous versions (e.g. posette, dork, judy, sydney). however, peer pressure
dictates that users must largely restrict themselves to vicky4 et seq., which has become
unwieldy in application of morphs, installation, updating and polygon count compared to
earlier daz/zygote models (dork/posette/v1) IMVHO.

I continue to pump out high quality models.

Comitted to excellence through art.

LOL Dark Edge.

I continue to pump out mediocre freebies ;o).

Laurie

@ Laurie.

Unfortunately very few modelers/artists stay true to their vision or style and ultimately submit to what the masses buy.
And what do the masses buy? T and A.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote - @ Laurie.

Unfortunately very few modelers/artists stay true to their vision or style and ultimately submit to what the masses buy.
And what do the masses buy? T and A.

...and they've been doing so for hundreds of years.

Vestmann's Gallery

That's exactly my point.
How's that working for you (or them?)

Comitted to excellence through art.

I´m fed up with all the erotic fantasy style clothing. How many fantasy clothing sets can you name that doesn't have the heroine in high heels!? I mean how practical is that? And why is it, in 2010, that most of Poser clothing seems to be made out of plastic?! Bugs the sh.. sh.. shin out of me. But there isn't much we can do about it while the masses are pleased with the selection available.

Vestmann's Gallery

I don't have time to keep it up with my freebies even I tried. It takes time to improve.

Quote - Are you happy with the standard of models out there?

that's sort of an odd question for me. it would assume that there's some sort of uniform or single standard, which wouldn't make much sense. there are always new people entering the market, always new comers, and frankly, the technology of modeling doesn't seem to have significantly changed in at least a decade if not more. so the various levels of experience, skill and talent are still about what they always have been.

what's changed imho by is the originality and artistry. when i started, i found tons of free clothes, figures, and textures. there was a lot of T&A/pinup style stuff, but even that was pretty, um, interesting. anyone here remember BATLAB's freebies? i still remember colonial freebies for Posette and Dork. people made things that fit their own vision. there was more diversity.

freebies are now most commonly an entry to the commercial market. so even the freebies are more standard, more crowd pleasing, and less interesting and diverse. which is cool, but it means lots of people start by thinking about what sells and what's popular instead of what they personally want to make. everyone has to pay bills, and i'm not criticizing anyone's hustle, but as a consumer and a community member, i'm kind of sad to see joyful creativity and experimentation get replaced by practical mercantilism.

the best merchants that have remained in the field are improving their skills. some of the mediocre ones are basically staying level and just making the same stuff over and over. but mostly, i've seen less and less work that seems to have come from someone's personal vision and creativity and more and more work that simply lacks imagination.

Quote - Do you think that standard has kept pace with the progress of the rendering software?

rendering software? no. materials are still mostly plug and pray, textures mostly have burned in specular and shading, and very few merchants who own it use Zbrush to make the high quality displacement maps like Poser and D|S both support now.

Quote - Do you think there should be standards here at Rendo that models have to meet before they can go on sale?

not as i think you mean it. Rendo is the only major store open to new merchants. no, people shouldn't be able to sell broken or faulty items. but Rendo's QA already works at that. i'm sure they're not perfect, but i've never had a problem in all my years here.

also, i think it would suppose some communal standard of quality. i love a lot of texture artists whose materials don't meet my basic quality standards. but for many, they find those materials quality. to me, burned in specular and shading is a loss of quality, but people flock to textures like this because they look realistic in ambient lighting regardless of how bad the material handles specular.

Quote - Or are you happy with the way things are and there’s no point anyway as things will not change anyway?

i'm not sure it's an either or question. no, i'm not happy with things as they are, but i don't believe more rules will change them. i think positive change has to come from community leaders, and that's not happening. instead, the people with the power to change things have just done things like more rules and cessation of good-neighbor policies. Renderosity won't die, but the way it was will. many of the artists i've favorited have left due to the changes in rules. i just recently looked through the gallery for images that speak to me like some particular images have in the past. i found some new favorite works and even artists, but nothing i loved rather than liked. even after 40+ pages of digging. even a year or so ago, it was easier for me to find artists whose work really struck me.

i guess the saddest aspect to me is that we're the underground of the CG industry. we're the ones who can and should be taking risks, doing interesting work. we're the ones who should be trying wild ideas and bouncing them back and forth. we're the equivalent of garage bands and ciphers in the parks, of underground zines and cafe shop comics, of small comedy shops and theatres.. but we're more commercially minded and less willing to take risks than Pixar, Disney, or Dreamworks. we get ideas from the mainstream, instead of being where the mainstream gets it's best ideas.

"i guess the saddest aspect to me is that we're the underground of the CG industry. we're the ones who can and should be taking risks, doing interesting work. we're the ones who should be trying wild ideas and bouncing them back and forth. we're the equivalent of garage bands and ciphers in the parks, of underground zines and cafe shop comics, of small comedy shops and theatres.. but we're more commercially minded and less willing to take risks than Pixar, Disney, or Dreamworks. we get ideas from the mainstream, instead of being where the mainstream gets it's best ideas."

For the most part, I do agree with you, KobaltKween. The odfs and BagginsBills and KobaltKweens and LaurieAs are in the extreme minority... and typically, do not have a prominent place in the marketplace. There is a certain freedom in that, believe me.

I am in the marketplace, in a small way. I have a vision of creating realistic current fashion for the gamut of female humanoids populating Poser/Daz pose rooms. I'm talking tasteful, original fashion, not copies of Versace or Dior or Country Road or Guess: my own take on styles that women in the Western world actually wear. I guess it would be a consolidation of what I like the best of those styles. And I look at the MP and think: "would I be wasting my time?" Does it matter... if I have a vision? Perhaps start a line for Miki2 or Sydney and Alyson and have V4 people start clamouring for conversions?

Point being: I'm not that naive. What sells in the marketplace sells because that's what the market wants. People ask me: "Yeah, but what do you do with this once you've made it?" speaking of a clothing item or a morph on V4. That's actually a good question. What do people do with all this tart-wear? Dare I even ask this? I mean really? Is it really all meant to end up in the Rendo or Deviant-Art gallery?
Really?

Okay, sorry I asked.... but y'all must have suspected that the conversation was going to go there.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

oh, i know there are innovators and risk-takers out there. frankly, i wouldn't include myself. i was thinking about figure makers like Nursoda and Gareee, and material makers like you.

i don't think it's about being naive. but can you imagine what the field of music would be like if every musician learned to make music with the attitude of, "well, what will sell?" all we'd have are boy bands and teeny-bopper pop. which launched some greats back in the day, but would mean we wouldn't even have whole genres like punk, metal, new wave, techno, industrial, hip hop, and, well, almost everything. which is kind of the state we're in in CG, because even the underground is afraid to try things for fear they'll be unpopular and won't get sales, or views, or comments. everyone is so afraid of being unpopular, it's severely limiting.

Sex sells.
Always has.
Hopefully, always will.

The problem in that area is that there can be too great a concentration on the 'in your face' style of sex....just because it's 'easy'. Once you get out of the fetish area, what is 'sexy' gets into the very subjective gray area of 'I'll know it when I see it'. T shirt, shorts, and sandals can be slobbing around or hellishly sexy, depending on the wearer, the attitude, and the viewers taste. That tends to scare off the timid, as there is too much of a current want for a 'sure thing'. And so we get variant #166 of that outfit WhosiswhatisDaddy did X years ago that =everyone= wanted because it was so unique and new.

On the tech end we've had a long, dry spell that is only beginning to break up. Part of it has been due to DAZ's decision to keep their compatibility at P4/PP levels. A lot of vendors deliberately avoided the newer gimmicks in P5-PP2010 for that reason. But that was only part of it. Fear of learning new things was a much bigger part. Dynamic cloth has been in since P5, and opens up the area for fitting different sized characters without a lot of work. But users were and are scared of it, and quite a few content creators as well. Same with dynamic hair and the shader room. Sergemarck's period clothing was and still is fanstastic.....but he has gone elsewhere. Adorana's hair is excellent both to use and to study how it's done.....but the site seems to be temporarily gone. Bagginsbill has been the driving force behind the increase in actual shader usage....but as of yet there seems to be no apprentice to keep the ideas out there, should he decide to move on. The innovators are still there, and always have been.....but the layers of 'Buy it loadit renderit' users has increased. Which may be good for business, but truly can smash the creativity out of the best of us.

Odf's work with Antonia is one example of how to beat this. He started her, and is the guiding hand in her making. Then he got Phantom3D interested in rigging her. BB started working on shader tricks for her eyes, and produced some of the best looking eyes seen so far. Others began to show interest, and at least on content maker took the plunge and experimented with dynamic cloth....and got jazzed. Which is the 3rd problem.

People are jaded. VickyMikeVickyMikeVickyMikeAkoAkoGirl etc....... I grab every decently crafted and rigged figure mesh I can get my hands on, as that sameness is like getting smacked over and over. Eventually, you feel nothing. It is looking like there may be a schism between Poser and DS in the offing, which might be a good thing. Particularly if they get a solid 3rd party interface like Collada working fully.

Postulating here:
When you learn to play the guitar or drums or whatever, there's a certain amount of basic knowledge you need to absorb about chords or whatever-you-need-to-learn-to-bang-on-a-drum... IOW, core skills.

Poser's different in that respect, particularly in some key areas. You can just muck around and start rendering and pretty soon you start to think: "yep, got it.. I know how this works, now"... this - my personal bee-in-my-bonnet - one sees most notably in the mat room. It is the aCCEPTed way to create materials. Everyone I talk to say the same thing:

"oh, you know, I just put stuff together until it looks right" ...

and because so MANY use this "technique", it's become the way to do it. And these people all just patently ignore all the information that is available on this forum... because, for the most part, people only come in here if they need help with a problem. And creating a bogus material isn't a problem. Looks okay, walks okay, quacks okay, must be okay. Until someone else tries to use it. But by then, it's someone elses problem.

This forum is not the ideal venue for learning proper technique, because it's not the intuitive choice for "I wonder if there is actually a RIGHT way to make materials".
This apathetic approach - if it's not in the manual, it must not be valid/important - drives a large part of the mediocrity of what's available.

When someone decided that V4 didn't meet his basic ideas of what a 3D human should behave like and started creating a higher-quality model in Wing3D, he also realised that he was going to be up against popularity and high market profile. So what? Like Linux: market share isn't important: usability and stability is. And free is good too. And community rallying round the new developer is what needs to happen to keep Poser as a dynamic growing community alive.

That's what made Poser great in the first place... this is where the face_Offs and Travellers and Semidieus shine: innovation.

People will always buy stuff at the MP. People will always buy at Maccas (Aussie for the popular burger joint). But that doesn't have to keep Poser from staying interesting. Matmatic and VSS and The Node Cult and Antonia and Blender3D and people who like to muck around with better lights and materials and camera settings will take so-called "inferior" meshes or products or whatever and turn them into something useful and brilliant using................. imagination. So, who cares if the quality of said products appear to have leveled off? Who reading this actually uses products as they come? Not me... everything gets tweaked... and mostly it's shaders. Gotta make that mine... make it unique.

Otherwise, we're just all dressing up Barbie Dolls...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

auto-tuned pop by pretty girls who can't sing sells, too. but it would suck if that were the only music being made. and most people won't pay very much for it. the burn-out you're describing is the same thing that's been happening to the music industry for the last decade or so because too many have taken the attitude of they already know what sells so why try anything else.

it's like movie sequels and remakes: even though there's a floor for how much you can make, there's also a ceiling. and both keep getting lower as the market gets more and more saturated.

there are many, many, many fewer innovators than there used to be. and not because fewer people have the skill and tools to be. there's a larger percentage of people who are just "users," but the number of content creators has still grown. i'm reading more and more posts that every merchant should use certain high-end tools now. like 3d painting tools, professional UV mapping software, and other advances. sure materials and dynamics haven't been understood as much as they could have been by most creators, but rigging, modeling, mapping and texturing keep advancing. what's been dying off for a while now is originality in how those skills are used.

i definitely think we need more technical experimentation. i don't think there are many in the world who could apprentice to bagginsbill, but there are those of us using his tools and learning from him. odf and Phantom3d are doing incredible work, and drawing other talented and bright people into their sphere but more important, imho, than technical experimentation is artistic and creative experimentation. the very best sci fi catsuit with impractical boots in the world is still just one of the dozens if not hundreds of sci fi catsuits with boots.

how many hundreds of posts do the perennial "is Poser work art?" threads attract? and how many people go on and on about creativity and tools and photographs? but i've literally never seen a photo community with a gallery as unvaried in content and message as this gallery. i'm beginning to see the same sort of threads about D|S specifically. somehow, even designers and illustrators in the advertising industry manage to be more broad and creative than our galleries show we are. heck, our own professional arm has more diverse works.

like i said, we're the CG underground. but we're far more conservative in our work than the CG mainstream.

I was considering becomming a vendor but having read this post I have decided against it. I have a number of models in the free stuff section and all have been made for my own pleasure. I put them into the free stuff in case anyone else can find a use for them, or simply to play with them for a few minutes.

If you consider work is not original or innivative enough why not build your own innovative models: show us inadeguate modelers how it's done. If you don't like the quality of an item that you have paid for, or if the thumb misrepresents a purchaed item you have recourse in the MP.

As for higher end modelling programms: There is no way that I, as an ameture, will pay 850 gbp for such as 3D max. My models are by and large made in the less expensive ULEAD COOL 3D PS, it has limitations but that's what I will stick with.

I model for pleasure but vendors model for money and some may model what they think will sell, even if it lacks originality, and as they are doing it commercially I applaud them: It makes sense.

I have to add a Post script:

I believe that the multiprops I made are inovative and furthur I believe they produce nebulae tha are at least as good, probaboly better, than any nebula Hollywood have ever produced. This thread has really annoyed me.

I don't think anyone is pointing a finger at anyone in particular Apple_UK :o). I think that most are just old timers such as myself who have watched from the very beginning. Things went from generous people everywhere sharing their creations with everyone else (freebies were all you could get here in the early years and there WAS no store). Even in the early years of the store, there was some innovative stuff going on...some in the community caught on to mat pose files, easy pose, geometry switching, JCM's....just to name a few. There is still some of that going on, especially with the wizards of Python and bagginsbill and his shader work. There are always mavericks in the community who pave the way for the rest of us. It just seems that there are fewer now than there used to be and more end-users.

I myself give my stuff away because I only like to make what I like, not what seems to be norm around here. It probably wouldn't sell well anyway. But if someone can use it and likes it, it's enough for me :o). I never, ever start a project thinking "will anyone use this?" I don't really care...lol.

Laurie

"As for higher end modelling programms: There is no way that I, as an ameture, will pay 850 gbp for such as 3D max. My models are by and large made in the less expensive ULEAD COOL 3D PS, it has limitations but that's what I will stick with."

you don't need max.
you can use any modeler you want... Lightwave, Wings, Sketchup, trueSpace, Blender. Max is just the buzzword for the industry standard in a lot of areas.. but you don't have to have it.

I use Wings myself and it does everything I've wanted it to do so far ;o). No high-end stuff here...lol.

And to expand a little on my last post, I mentioned that I don't care if anyone likes the stuff I make or not... I was totally serious and I think that's really the attitude to have. If you try and try and try to make what everyone wants, 1. You'll be making what everyone else is already making and 2. There will never be anything different. :o).

Laurie

Generally speaking, the newgen females seem to have have too much of an anime style to them for my taste.

If I might have my wishes fulfilled, I'd love for Daz to release an updated V3 figure. By that, I mean more polygons and improved rigging to take advantage of the increased model resolution. Especially with her facial features, elbows, neck and hips.

Oh, one more thing @ Apple_UK...

Who's to say that something you make might not really catch on? You might be the creator of the next big thing...lol. Don't quit before you start :o).

Laurie

Quality of the models really hasn't changed much but the overdeveloped sense of entitlement of the user's sure has become enlarged

My take on things:

I post a few craptacular models, it's going to be what I feel like making.

If you like it download it and use it.

If there is a technical problem with the upload contact me, I want to fix that immediately.

If you want it in a different color or the specular level changed, etc....STFU and do it yourself you lazy sod, don't talk to me about it.

I wasn't like that when I started but a few of e-mails telling me how my models aren't any good because they don't include poses for X, that one morph only person Y even knows about, or Mats in color Z; has just about made me want to pull everything and just not share anything I do with the Poser/DS community anymore.

The only reason I haven't yet is because of the handful of people who do appreciate other people's efforts and generosity.

Oh, and if the above "burnt a bridge"....it didn't lead back to anywhere I wanted to see again anyway.

I've only been in for about 3 years, so I can't speak about then, but one thing that really irks me is that product documentation (with a few exceptions) really stinks. For one thing, many come with a file called "readme.txt"-you can only have one per directory, so if a bunch of stuff is getting installed, invariably I end up overwriteing readme.txt-perhaps even more than once. I find readme files in any number of different directories, sometimes in runtime/readme's (or various misspellings thereof) under runtime/libraries, etc.

When I do find it, it usually contains little useful information outside of the list of files. Particularly in the case of conforming or prop hair, an explanation of the various morphs and what they do would be welcome. When ever I load a hair I need to spend at least ten minutes playing wiht the morphs to figure out how it works and ahat dial controls what part of the hair. This issue isn't confined to hair, either-look at DAZ V4 Morphs++...

Flame off ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - I was considering becomming a vendor but having read this post I have decided against it. I have a number of models in the free stuff section and all have been made for my own pleasure. I put them into the free stuff in case anyone else can find a use for them, or simply to play with them for a few minutes.

if you really and truly made it for your own pleasure, with no thought at all of what anyone would think of it, and then posted it publicly, i'm incredibly impressed. most human beings care about what others in the community they're part of think of them, at least a little bit. i'm certainly not able to do that, and i do try to.

why not become a merchant? just try and sell the things you make now. and since every sale will be icing on what you're doing now, you shouldn't need to change what you make.

Quote - If you consider work is not original or innivative enough why not build your own innovative models: show us inadeguate modelers how it's done. If you don't like the quality of an item that you have paid for, or if the thumb misrepresents a purchaed item you have recourse in the MP.

assuming this is directed at my post, did you read where i said i don't support some sort of standard for quality because it's too personal? i have certain things i think make something quality, but i noted that they are very specific to me. i don't personally judge artists on whether or not they use techniques i chose to use myself. i have no complaint about any specific product. as i mentioned, i'm sure the Rendo QC people make errors and miss some stuff, but everything i've bought has been great. no complaints in terms of technical quality.

i never said anyone was an inadequate modeler. in fact, i said the exact opposite. and i am not trying to comment on any single person's work or choices.

if you look at my gallery, you'll see i have begun modeling. nothing really special or innovative yet, but i have ideas for a couple of projects that are very particular to me. the several i have in progress now are not innovative in the slightest, and yet some have oddly never been done to my knowledge. like a dance outfit for a male figure. some of the sketches and plans i have are just plain weird, and if i ever manage to make them into products and anyone buys them, i'll be over the top.

Quote - I model for pleasure but vendors model for money and some may model what they think will sell, even if it lacks originality, and as they are doing it commercially I applaud them: It makes sense.

first of all, i don't see a need to be defensive about this. i'm just saying it's sad that people are so scared of not being popular that very few venture outside the very, very tiny box of most popular CG content. not that they're bad people, or that they shouldn't feed their families.

second, again, i'll point to every single other creative industry i know of. meaning, fields where people make money (even lots of money). music, writing, painting, sculpting, commercial design and advertising, film, fashion, etc. they have their mainstream, and then they have their small budget underground where people are trying to make money and take lots of creative risks. so you get the punk movement, and then it bubbles up to the mainstream. you get indie comic artists who are eventually hired by Marvel and DC. you get incredible graffiti and indie poster styles that eventually get incorporated into commercial print and web design.

i live in a city with an unusually large number of independent artists in various fields. literally almost everyone you meet here has been involved in making a movie and plays an instrument. i'm kind of unusual because i only do visual and tech stuff. i grew up around fine artists, and i have a few friends involved in dance and theater. i follow design, both print and electronic, and have a pretty extensive indie comic collection. so i'm familiar with a lot of different creative underground communities. and all of them take more creative risks (as a whole and on average) than this one. most of the people here who don't make any content, who don't sell anything, even they don't even try to post something that might be weird, or interesting, or disturbing, or just plain different.

i can and do try to participate in this community and still clear enough mental space to be true to my own internal muse. so do some others whose work i've seen and some whose work i follow. and i try to support artists i appreciate with comments and favorites and general signs that i am watching and i do appreciate their work. but i, alone, am not a community. i'm not talking about any one artist or merchant, nor am i trying to make decisions for anyone else. i'm just saying that it's sad that we, as a community, who are in the CG underground, haven't found a way to have the same strength, independence, and culture of innovation and experimentation of the undergrounds of literally every artistic industry i know of.

quote
"if you really and truly made it for your own pleasure, with no thought at all of what anyone would think of it, and then posted it publicly, i'm incredibly impressed. most human beings care about what others in the community they're part of think of them, at least a little bit. i'm certainly not able to do that, and i do try to."

I detect a note of disbelief in the above comment, but if one does not creat for money then what else? Very few people bother to say thank you (the ones who do are memorable) so it's not that . There is, however, a great deal of satisfaction in creation and self improvement.

I do not see how it is reasonable to criticise a body of people because they are not considered creative enough. I also beleive that whoever critcsices others for lack of creativity is honour bound to themselves be creative so we can judge the thier criticism fairly.

LaurieA - your words are, as ever, calming :)

but if one does not creat for money then what else?

the simple joy of creating here :)

but if one does not create for money then what else?

I 'build' places where I'd like to live, then 'live' in them for a while.
Cheaper and faster than doing it with bricks and wood!

My python page
My ShareCG freebies

As basicWiz said, there's two basic kinds of Poser people: end-users who just want things to work (according to some as-yet-undefined standard) and those who like to tinker. I belong to the latter, perhaps because when I got into Poser there wasn't gigbytes of stuff out there, so if you wanted something, you made it or tweaked something similar to what you wanted.

This forum is still very much a haven of tweakers, but we're seeing more load-and-renderers asking questions on here. It's very hard to define which is which sometimes: some stuff I'd rather not really mess around with much, like ERC and fall-off zones but that doen't mean I won't in the future.

What I do appreciate is when people kind-of put in the name: "Poser Pro2010:" or "Installing V4:" or something like that, instead of "Can someone tell me..." - since I don't have Poser Pro and I have V4 installed, I can avoid those threads if I wish to.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - I detect a note of disbelief in the above comment, but if one does not create for money then what else? Very few people bother to say thank you (the ones who do are memorable) so it's not that. There is, however, a great deal of satisfaction in creation and self improvement.

I do not see how it is reasonable to criticise a body of people because they are not considered creative enough. I also believe that whoever criticises others for lack of creativity is honour bound to themselves be creative so we can judge the their criticism fairly.

I think the point KobaltKween was trying to make was that as a group, Poser content creators are making more and more the same sort of things (clothing, in particular) instead of taking creative risks. She was not targeting any developer in particular and certainly not people who create new stuff to offer as freebies. Look at the top-selling items - it's pretty obvious when money talks.

As I said: market taste determines what the market will create. What sells most is sex (unfortunately). I personally hesitate to send people who are curious about Poser and what I do to the main Rendo site because to the uninitiated, some of the content advertisement images must look a bit over-the-top tarty ... something we who have been "Poserised" can't really appreciate anymore. It's a bit monochromic in that sense. Yes, sex is fine, but when that's the main theme, one gets a reputation... :biggrin:

Feel free to shoot me down... :rolleyes:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Nope, I agree with ya! I am seeing, however, some REALLY nice vehicles in the MP lately.
Since I'm a scifi buff, I snap up ANY starfighters and ships I can get, though I am learning
to make my own. One of the first tuts I picked up was modeling a Mk1 Viper in Lightwave.
I have Modo, but it was easy to follow anyway. I improved on it by making the Viper much
more detailed, UVmapping and transfering the model, piece by piece, to Poser 7.

Now Poser can be a PITA to model for, because what looks good in Modo and DS, can
still general smoothing errors in Poser. Adding extra edges to fix that was a bit of a pain,
but a learning experience just the same.

Now me, there are enough modelers producing quality scifi stuff, that I really have no
complaints, but I do wish for quality, non-slutwear, scifi clothing, because THAT is
something I CAN'T do yet. :)

Eric

Quote - I detect a note of disbelief in the above comment, but if one does not creat for money then what else? Very few people bother to say thank you (the ones who do are memorable) so it's not that . There is, however, a great deal of satisfaction in creation and self improvement.

well, most people online create for popularity. pure and simple. hence the threads about popularity and comments in the galleries that are at least as common and well-trafficked as the, "why isn't Poser considered art?" threads. lots of people like to play the popularity game, and it makes them happy. which is cool, and emotionally supportive for some, but not very creative. a lesser but still substantial number create for some popularity (downloads, views, comments, etc.) and some personal enjoyjment. a balance of the two individual to the person. and a very, very small group that might exist really and truly doesn't care at all about what anyone thinks, never thinks at all about comments, and is completely indifferent to praise and criticism alike.

it is, i'll admit, hard to believe you belong to that last group since you're taking a comment about a community as a whole, a comment made by someone who's been a part of that community for almost a decade, and reacting pretty personally and defensively. if you really create without thinking about how people react, why in the world are you getting so upset about the comments of someone who hasn't said anything about your personal work, or even the work of people you like? but i actually was giving you the benefit of the doubt, and was properly impressed. which was why i suggested you do start selling your work. i wouldn't suggest that if i thought you were too thin-skinned to take criticism from people like bob1965 talked about, or if i though you would be too swayed by popular opinion to make products you enjoyed making.

Quote - I do not see how it is reasonable to criticise a body of people because they are not considered creative enough. I also beleive that whoever critcsices others for lack of creativity is honour bound to themselves be creative so we can judge the thier criticism fairly.

first of all, you don't have to be a musician to be a music critic, or to be kind of sad when the industry pushes out the kind of artists you enjoy and promotes singers dependent on auto-tune. nor do you have to be a musician to comment on trends in the industry, or (as some people here in town did) take part in protests when one of those singers comes and plays venues more talented, local musicians are excluded from. second of all, while i don't claim to have the greatest gallery, or even one that meets my own standards (yet), i do have one. i mentioned it before. as i mentioned that i have made my own efforts to be creative and support others i found creative. i have, to the best of my ability, tried. so what else am i supposed to do to be honorable? besides just not have my opinion?

and i think you're either misspeaking or misunderstanding. i'm not criticizing the community because we're "considered" not creative enough. that would imply i care what some outsider thinks. i'm not even exactly criticizing. what i'm saying is i think it's sad and disappointing to me that i have watched this community take fewer creative risks than any other underground / independent community i know of, and that the risks it takes have decreased rather than increased over time. if you feel that is criticism, then you have to take the line that the community should be creative. which is rather at odds with your statement about applauding people sacrificing creativity for sales.

i cannot stress how much i'm not saying anything about any individual. everyone tries their best. i am most certainly not commenting on what you make yourself, or on the work of any freebie maker. i have never seen your work, and i certainly didn't post thinking i wish you were more creative. i am not even commenting on any merchants. heck, i'm not even making one of those, "things suck now. in the old days they were good, but now i'm leaving," posts. i'm saying that there's something about this community that i am a part of and enjoy that i wish were different. now am i supposed to just think everything's perfect, or can you bear me having my own opinion about some problem that, by your own account, has nothing to do with you?

The irony of these periodic laments on the death of creativity is that creativity has blossomed. Poserdom has gone from Willow and Grey’s little corner of the interwebs to a fairly big thing. In the process, countless people who always wanted to do “art,” but couldn’t draw a straight line with a ruler have been empowered to realize their modest visions. It may not agree with the taste of everyone, it may be crude, repetitive sophomoric or whatever you want to throw at it, but it works for them. Naturally enough, folks saw an opportunity to make some money catering to the needs of a growing market. That is the way markets evolve. Why should they care about quality when people (probably including a few of those complaining about the lack of it) continue to accumulate terabyte collections of stuff – half of which they haven’t even installed?

When the tools of creativity are democratized, a thousand flowers bloom but it should be no surprise that most of them look alike and precious few of them are prize orchids. The advent of consumer video, for instance, has produced some great stuff no doubt, but most of it is derivative, mundane and bonus points if you flash your teats. The garage bands are on ‘Who Wants to be a Garage Band Millionaire in 60 Seconds’, and the underground comics are on YouTube. The impulse to individuality competes with a deep seated desire to conform and fit in, to go with the meme of the day, and maybe get famous enough for someone to actually care about watching your leaked sex video.

The Poser market is also largely fantasy driven. People, by and large, probably don’t want to unwind and render people in dungarees or JC Penney’s spring line for V4, when they can look out the window and see plenty of them. ‘Sex (and violence) sells’ is as much about neurobiology as it is about marketing. You can’t have it both ways. You either remain a small, select entity that relies on its own resources or you take the money and let the crowd into the tent. If they prefer to watch the hootchie cootchie show, that’s life.

Anyone who was in on the early days of something can fondly remember the clubbiness of the small community, the shared experience and the secret handshakes before it all changed. I certainly feel that way about programming before 500 schlocky video converters and pull my finger – there’s an app for that nonsense, but there are still gems to be found. As Eric Hoffer said, "Every great cause, begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket."

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - how many hundreds of posts do the perennial "is Poser work art?" threads attract? and how many people go on and on about creativity and tools and photographs? but i've literally never seen a photo community with a gallery as unvaried in content and message as this gallery.

Photographers are pretty limited in what kind of work they can produce. They just don't all have access to the exact same model. And even if there are a lot of them who can reach one particular location, they're never there on the same day, with the same light and weather conditions, looking at a scene from the exact same view. Variety is an unavoidable component of photography, and trying to reproduce others' work with as much precision as possible is one of the best ways to learn the trade because it's actually hard to do.

Not that there aren't photography forums filled with what looks like the exact same unspectacular sunset posted over and over again. There are lots of those. But they tend to draw almost no attention and fall off the front pages into obscurity.

I expect that the galleries here and in other similar places are lacking in variety is because, despite everyone saying that they only produce or should produce art for their own pleasure, the neurotransmitter hit to the reward centre of the brain when we get a lot of views or comments "from the masses" is simply too strong for most people. So they make art -- and buy stuff that helps them make art -- that pleases the masses. And when it comes to poser art, the masses don't seem to have very original taste.

At least, that's how it seems if you look at the galleries here.

I think, though, that there is some truly spectacular art in the galleries here. But OMG is it ever hard to find.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"I expect that the galleries here and in other similar places are lacking in variety is because, despite everyone saying that they only produce or should produce art for their own pleasure, the neurotransmitter hit to the reward centre of the brain when we get a lot of views or comments "from the masses" is simply too strong for most people. So they make art -- and buy stuff that helps them make art -- that pleases the masses. And when it comes to poser art, the masses don't seem to have very original taste."

This sums it up perfectly. This is why Victoria in a dungeon with a sword dominates the galleries. "Hey, I can do that!"

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

kobaltkween:
1.Thank you for your insights into my psyche. Next time I see my shirnk I'll ask him if you're right.
2.regarding your contimuing disbelief: Everything I have put into th free stuff is made as part of illustrations for a book. I like to make them and having used them I then put them online for the reasons stated above. Not all models i make are popular but they are still in the freebies. I will agree agree though that high download figures might be rewarding. When I get to that level I will let you know.

I acknowledge that you have not targetd any inindiviual
I maintain that it is unreasonable to complain about the lack of creativity: no one who is not formally employed to be creative is obliged to be.
I continue to look forward to your creativity

My stars, Apple!! - just had a look at your free stuff. You should be selling. You have such a broad range of items and they all (from first glance) look very sophisticated. What I find particularly refreshing is that none of these items resemble anything already in the freebie area or even the marketplace. You are unique in this: you exude creativity.

Strong work!

I really look forward to your future creations.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Hm.. I model both things. I model things I assume will sell when I need money, and I model freebies and the odd things when I'm having fun L Sometimes those two things coexist. A few times I've managed to model a really off-beat thing that sold like hotcakes.. and other times I've made something I assumed would sell like mad... and just ... didn't.

So most of the time I'm now making things I would like to buy, If someone else agrees, then yay me. If not.. well.. At least I still made myself something i wanted L

In my opinion, the quality of Poser products has certainly improved thought the years. But there's still things in the Marketplace I wouldn't even release as a freebie... It's not being high-and-mighty... it's being honest. And yes. My oldest models generally makes me cringe, too. I leave them online though because.. they still work - they may not be photoreal by today's standards, but they're still for the most parts, one of a kind sorta props :)

Yes Apple_UK, your things are very, very nice! I'm afraid to admit this is the first time I've seen them. You'll have to forgive me...I hardly download anything anymore because I can make my own (or at least try to make my own ;o)). But they are very nice - outside the norm and something I don't think you'd have trouble selling, if you chose to do so :o).

Laurie

RobynViel / LaurA: your comments are kind and I thank you for them but I have seen too many complaints in the forum about items in the MP and I don't want that hassle. I'll stick to depositing stuff in the freebie section.

That's a bit of an ethical problem though: This site has to be financed - peoples' wages have to be paid. It's a quandy

Quote - RobynViel / LaurA: your comments are kind and I thank you for them but I have seen too many complaints in the forum about items in the MP and I don't want that hassle. I'll stick to depositing stuff in the freebie section.

That's a bit of an ethical problem though: This site has to be financed - peoples' wages have to be paid. It's a quandy

Well, customer complaints kinda go with the territory of selling...lol...even for the best and most popular merchants I'm sure. If it's one thing you can be certain of it's that you can never satisfy everyone. And some you never can...lol.

Laurie

What Laurie said. If you state clearly what your products do, what they are for, and "that if you break it, you get to keep both pieces" you should be covered. I.e, a disclaimer.
Testing helps... run it by your friends and see if they can find any issues. Then, run it by me... :biggrin: I'm pedantic. Rendo staff will also test it. Pass all those tests, and you're laffin'... all the way to the bank, whilst Rendo is chuckling on the way to another bank with the other half.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

@ lmckenzie - i'd entirely agree with you (instead of mostly) if i saw in the movies produced after the birth of the video camera the same lack of individuality i do on this site i didn't, and still don't. i mean, i know that even porn got lower quality with the advent of the video camera and that the industry exploded. but so did indie documentaries, animation, and other genres. the underground of film was very diverse, and in my opinion, more diverse than here. i don't think it's just the democratization of tools. it's also the particular culture of Poserdom. i think it's due to a number of different factors, but i'm not sure what they are.

more people make stuff, but fewer seem to make original stuff. most of the artists and merchants i've followed who have made original stuff (in my opinion, of course) have left the community. some are still here, and i search pretty hard for new ones. i'm noticing that it's much harder than it used to be. even a year ago i found more of certain styles of work in the gallery.

i'm not thinking about the exclusivity. quite the opposite. i've watched a lot of people whose work i respect (including newcomers who were just picking up Poser) turn away from this community and its culture over the years. i sometimes think we don't realize how many are in fact pushed away by the culture, and turn away from what they see as a community that has no place for their type of work. i mean, yeah, the site as a whole grows. but as far as i've seen, the cultures of all the Poser sites are consolidating and becoming more uniform. which isn't bad if you don't miss the diversity. i do.

@moriador - i pretty much agree with you, too, except that photographers can do just Playboy and Maxim shots with different women pretty easily. and in fact, most of the photographers i follow here have left, too. again, i actively search for new ones, but i'm finding fewer and fewer. i'm actually seeing some (not much, but some) of the uniformity of the dominant Poser/D|S culture creep into some of the other areas here. while on other non-Poser gallery sites i look at, that doesn't seem to be happening.

i have a lot of sites for photo galleries and photographers bookmarked, and i haven't seen one like you describe. but i'm most definitely not a photographer, so i don't know the culture or the online hang-outs like you probably do (from how you speak of them).

@Trekkie-Grrl - thanks so much for your creations. i've followed your work for a while, and it's always been interesting. i'm definitely not saying i think merchants shouldn't mix it up. i'm not even trying to tell merchants what to sell like the "we want male clothes," "we want ordinary contemporary clothes," and "we want stuff for kids," threads. i don't even think it's just merchants contributing to the state of the market, or it probably would change. i think it's all of us. and i'm very glad that you continue to be able to do your own thing.

@Apple_UK - as i mentioned to RobynsVeil last night/this morning, after looking at your work, i have no clue why you reacted to any of the statements here, including mine, as if your work had been criticized. that's not insight into your psyche, that's reporting on your behavior. your work is high quality modeling (an area i never complained about despite you posting as if i had), and very original. you are actually the type of artist i find it harder and harder to find. i really hope you put aside your emotional reaction to critiques and start selling. i would hope that you could make a good amount of money, and i know that you would add to the diversity of the marketplace which i personally appreciate.

if you think it's unreasonable to have an opinion on creativity, well, that's very unusual. people comment on the creativity of all the fields i mentioned all the time. just as an example, most conversations about any movie or movies in general that i've witnessed or have been a part of, both online and in real life, at some point touched on whether the movie was original and interesting or not. and a fairly large percentage of those conversations touched on the originality of the film industry in general. i see no reason why this community should be exempt from the same kind of analysis.

that said, i never said anyone was obligated to be creative. i said i wish the community as a whole took more creative risks. maybe you feel people are obligated to give you what you wish, but i do not.

as for your comments on my creativity, well, i acknowledge you moving to personal attacks but i'm not going to respond in kind.

Quote - RobynViel / LaurA: your comments are kind and I thank you for them but I have seen too many complaints in the forum about items in the MP and I don't want that hassle. I'll stick to depositing stuff in the freebie section.

That's a bit of an ethical problem though: This site has to be financed - peoples' wages have to be paid. It's a quandy

Complaints in the forum... can you be more specific? Are they quality of mesh complaints, or shader complaints or what, exactly?
I haven't seen too many mesh complaints, but have seen shader complaints, and they are warranted. Usually those shader-complaints are followed by comments from people who do have information on optimising shaders. Since this is all a learning experience - I'm certain you didn't start out modelling as beautifully as you do now - it is worthwhile to have a read of those suggestions and try them out. Vendors as a rule don't, judging by the quality of the shaders still being produced.

The biggest challenge I have had as vendor is keeping up with my energetic partner, who is light-years faster than I am at producing things. Much as I hate to say it, what sells best (at our skill level) is "sexy" - I know it and she knows it. I wish I could model like you do, but since we always have something in the oven I feel guilty taking time to learn stuff when I should be producing.
When (notice I didn't say if) you do start selling, do it at a pace where it stays enjoyable for you, where you can still explore new concepts and technologies. Growth is a crucial factor to keep from falling into the productivity rut that most vendors on here have fallen into (which is what I believe KobaltKween is refering to... not your work, or anyone else's that IS creative).

You don't owe anyone anything. If you want to keep giving away freebies, feel free. Rendo's making heaps off us vendors so they're happy. You can always just do this as a hobby. That's what I do. I think the trend is bound to change in terms of how things sell, but in which direction is anyone's guess.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Woot!

Comitted to excellence through art.

wow! very nice work. it looks like you're planning to expand it?

Thanks. Yup, it's going to be a interlocking section that can go on as far as you want it to. I'm going to have it broken up into bits and pieces so 1 whole section with both sides, 1 section half of a side, 2 section halfs and 2 section wholes.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote - I've only been in for about 3 years, so I can't speak about then, but one thing that really irks me is that product documentation (with a few exceptions) really stinks. For one thing, many come with a file called "readme.txt"-you can only have one per directory, so if a bunch of stuff is getting installed, invariably I end up overwriteing readme.txt-perhaps even more than once. I find readme files in any number of different directories, sometimes in runtime/readme's (or various misspellings thereof) under runtime/libraries, etc.

Arggh. My own pet peeve too. A community standard that included unique file naming and standard folder/file locations would not be that hard to follow.
Other aspects of the file structure of zips, on the other hand, has improved. Really old content is often not organized even in to runtime structure. Everything shoved into a single file with a readme detailing file placement. So, we do get better at some things! :)

Have the models improved, in general?

As others have said, some is better, some is worse, and there's a whole lot more in the middle than there used to be. So the impression is of a reduced quality. I was thinking about a year ago, about a particular merchant/marketplace whose offerings didn't seem, in general, to be as detailed or well-crafted as they did 4 or 5 years ago. So maybe I agree.

On the other hand, poser models are offered at ridiculous prices and most merchants can't (can they?) really be earning much more than sweatshop wages, given the sheer amount of work that goes into making even a "mediocre" model. Surely, it must be a labour of love that drives most creators, rather than a reasonable expectations of riches. It's hardly surprising that the most creative people get burned out periodically or that other markets attract their talent.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Kobaltkween, no more bikering but could you be more precise on a definition of creativity? Is it visual style, the message within a picture, new techiques?

For me a picture has to have a meaning, and I can't be doing with all this fantasy sleeze. I have looked at your gallery and it looks to me that you there is a message there, though I haven't yet deciphered it. That is not a cricism of your work, it is a compliment. Messages in pictures should never be 'in your face' for me.

So come on, let's get to the bottom of what you mean by creativity and the lack of it.

As someone who has been on every side of where this discussion has gone, I can tell you it's hard. I started out giving stuff away to the Rhino users - partially because I was a mod and didn't feel right selling it (foolish that) and partially because I like to share what I've made. Later, I needed "fun money" because my job at the time wasn't paying enough for me to really do more than make ends meet. So I made my first Poser figure. A toon. Let me tell you right now, that was when I realized something : the Poser community is a paradox for the content creator. Simply put, you create something you think will be popular because it's what you love. You put blood sweat and tears into it. The act is akin to giving birth. Once done, you marvel at it for a moment and then you share it with everyone. That's when you realize what you thought was cool is NOT what everyone thinks is cool. Despite any evidence to the contrary (ie. forum posts, requests for models, or motion picture viewing habits).

Example: Pixar is by far the most successfull 3D cartoon animation house in America right now. Even their failures are making money. People eat their stuff up. Many of those people are Poser users. You would assume then, that these people must have some love for toons, yes? NO. Far from it in fact.

Okay, so you made a mistake. Now what? Should you attempt to stick to your guns and make what you love or should you seek out what's popular and try to mimic it - remember now, you need the cash and you're spending nights and weekends working on this thing. A little recognition that it even exists would go a long way to making the experience worthwhile, right? Right. Well, I'll tell you what I did. I stuck to my guns and made something I liked - a dragon. That did ok but again, did not have the impact I expected and was used by exactly two people (I can point you to the gallery pics). So now you've failed (again) and you're wondering if you should continue or just give up. I decided to pull back and work on my craft, assuming my lack of skill to be the cause of my misfortune. Others in that situation continued on but instead of making what they loved, they looked around and made what sells.

So really, it boils down to this - People won't make for sale things that people aren't going to buy but people can't buy it if people don't make it. It's a vicious cycle and tends to explain why so many people who got into this with the best of intentions end up making cookie cutter copies of what's "popular" (which is only popular because there's little else available).

On the original topic:

Yes, models are getting better but as they get better, the Poser user expects more. What's worse - they expect more at the same price they paid for the stuff that wasn't so good. I just got through making a character with 568 morphs - originally, I had offered to do the textures and rig also but by the end, after listening to the masses, I realized I didn't have it in me. We content creators end up doing the work of a small production studio by ourselves and see little in the way of acknowledgement, grattitude or money. Not to mention the knowledge that outside of our little community, our work wouldn't be taken seriously due to the stigmata of the program it's made for. Meanwhile, we're selling for $15 to $40 a fully rigged and morphed character set that would, in other circles, cost a few hundred dollars. So there's not a lot of incentive to improve the quality of figures but I do believe people are doing it. I know I constantly try to find a better way to invent the wheel we call "Poser characters" and I think I may have finally stumbled onto something. We'll see in a few months.

The only way I stay sane though, is I do what's asked of me at work and on my own time, I sculpt or model what I would rather be making (often fantasizing of releasing them someday).

Teyon - i totally get it. i think you've described the dilemma merchants experience and observe pretty well. but you've also just described the situation for most of my friends and acquaintances and even most of the people i used to work with. only they make music. but while some stop playing in bands, or such, most just keep making the music they like and finding (or trying to find) ways to make money at it.

i know a young woman in NYC working 3 jobs so she can dance. has she become an exotic dancer so she can pay her rent? nope. and she's highly unlikely to, even though she could make tons of money at it in a short period of time.

the family friends who are painters, sculptors, writers, etc. had the same problems. none of them decided the solution was to give up on their vision.

i totally understand that this is the choice many merchants face, and why they choose what they do. and i don't think anyone is obligated or should make the decisions other artists i know have. but if it were just the choice that were an issue, then our community wouldn't be different from those of other indie artist communities, and it is.

i don't know what the difference is, or what part of the merchant experience neither merchants nor customers can see that affects Poser communities in particular. but it actually seems to be pretty independent of actual money made. most merchants here make way more than just about every musician i know (most making more than 0), and no one here has to lug around a drum set. ;D

on quality- realize that you just described the top of the line models. you've gotten better, Stonemason's gotten better, Morris has gotten better, Aery Soul has gotten better, etc. but the mid and bottom of the market is still pretty much where it was. people are more demanding, because the people who stay and keep improving keep setting the bar higher. but there's still a lot of newcomers making basic stuff that has errors you'd never make.

i guess what i'm trying to say is don't make yourself crazy trying to be perfect because it's what people ask for. tons of people sell quickie little items of mid to low quality and still sell copies. but, you know, it's like the difference between usability testing with focus groups and questionnaires and actual A/B testing. ask people what they don't like and they'll go on and on. ask people what they want, and they'll list the sun, moon and stars. actually test what they do, and it will probably be entirely different from what they predicted (vehemently, no less).

i always think corvas' !TheGlamorousCollection!V4 is a good example of how you can't go by what people say. the dresses aren't latex or pvc tight or especially revealing. they don't have any thickness. they don't come with textures. they're not even UV mapped. they're not conforming, they're dynamic. and they spent ages on the best seller list.

what do you think would have been the response if he had asked in the forums, "will a set of 5 dynamic dresses and 30 materials with no textures, no UV mapping and paper thin edges sell well?" how many features do you think people would have demanded?

"The only way I stay sane though, is I do what's asked of me at work and on my own time, I sculpt or model what I would rather be making (often fantasizing of releasing them someday)."

Mucking around with Poser shaders keeps me sane (I work as a nurse in recovery). I can't say I'm good at it... not yet. Who is good at what she does - marketing and knowing what people want - is my business partner HeRaZa. She's very successful (by my standards, anyway). Me, I'm a bit of a wannabe.

Anyway, I feel lucky to know her.

Will I ever make a business of this? To answer that, I still have the luxury of being able to ask: which way is the market going? I glance at the "What's Hot" every now and then to see what people ostensibly want and then I think: "would I even be remotely interested in making something like that?" For me: that's the kicker. Can I get inspired to work on something like what I see for hours on end? days on end? No? Well, I don't have to.

At present (and for some months now) I've been obsessed with Matmatic and GC and CoE and tweaking every shader I've come across but I can't help wonder: am I developing a marketable skill? Is this going to be useful someday? Already, GC is in some versions of Poser, and I would guess as more people realise how important it is, this Pro feature may (I did say may, Bill) become part of the non-Pro version of Poser of the future as they dream up more exotic features. But then again, maybe not.

My Point? For those who do this for a living, more power to you! It is as grueling a job to sit and model and texture (and for me: code) for days and days on end, only to find your supposed Next-Best-Thing go down the gurgler. This is hard work if you do it for a business. I do it as a hobby, and even so, I sometimes feel the pressure of deadlines and testing.

Going out on a limb: I'd like to see the Poser BUYERS change the tenor of Poser content... just how many more skimpy outfits do you need? Come-on people: enough V4s in a dungeon with a sword, already. Let's come up with some original ideas for Poser images... and let content-makers rise to meet THAT challenge.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Has the quality of models for sale improved over the years?