Hi guys Here is my new shader, hope you like the progress. I will post various W.I.P. renders. Please be as critical as you can. Thx She looks abit like Megan Foxx right?

The skin shaders look good. The eyebrows are a bit over the top, could be thinned better.

Which Poser version are you using? You experiencing quite a bit of yellow bloom with your lighting set up which can detract from your shader accuracy.

Needs GC and the specular is wrong. And there is a bump-map seam in front of the ears. Make sure the bump settings match head and face, and for perfection you should just subtract .5 from the bump map. And there needs to be a hint of SSS.

In other words, I think you need to do all the things I do in the VSS skin shader. If I didn't think all skin needed those things, I would have left them out.

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ok this is my first real time creating my own. Here is another, abit of reckle. BTW It isn't the bmp map seam, I only applied the shader to the face lip map.

I think her eyebrows are lovely hborre. Thick eyebrows are back you know ;)

This is first test. The lighting is abit bright so i'll work on that.

BB your shader is too complex for me to use lol I tried but the skin came out too much and looked monstrous, but i guess i need to practise with it.

Looks pretty good. I can't use VSS either.

One of the things I learned the hard way was that testing skin shaders in isolation is dangerous. It's all too easy to push the lights into a high intensity that looks good, but leads you to adjust the shader for a light level that is not going to work well in general.

To help with that, I devised a light meter. This is a prop that you place in the scene with the figure and you adjust the lights to a known level, which the meter helps you find. Then you work with the skin to produce good results in that level, instead of adjusting the level to produce good skin results.

You can get the meter here:

http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/file-cabinet/BBLightMeter.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

Read about how to use it here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3627657&ebot_calc_page#message_3627657

Once your light levels produce no red on the meter, render your skin shader again and we'll talk.

Also, the very very first thing to talk about is gamma correction. Are you using render GC? If not, then you must use shader GC or you're just wasting your time.

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You guys say you have trouble using VSS. But you don't say what you're doing. So I can't help fix it.

To use VSS is simple:

Load a figure
Load some texture set on it
Load my VSS PR3 control prop.
Run vssMainButtons.py. This populates the Python Scripts window with new buttons that do things.
Click Synchronize.

That's all.

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I am on a Mac and the Main Buttons python doesn't do anything so you have run wacro 1 (I think it is that, not at a computer with Poser) to get it to do anything and you don't have the control window. It also disregards displacement and I sort of know there is a way to get it to do it but since the setup has issues for me, I just ignore it.

The problem with Mac was a bug in Poser, fixed in Poser 7 SR3. Also, IsaoShi found a workaround for earlier versions of Poser. Which are you using?

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Do people have freckles on their lips?

I have lots of the little buggers in my face, but not, so far as I can see, on my lips.

(oh and why is it people who are blessed with a spot-less skin always thinks freckles are "so adorable"? L They're NOT.. If I had three or four more I'd be tanned.. as it is, I look like I've been sunbathing under a sieve...)

There was work around for Poser 7 that I tried and it was the wacro thing but it wasn't complete. At least I don't think it was. I think what I use is Poser 7 with no updates but maybe I will try it in Poser 2010. I just don't use it very much.

I just googled it and it isn't as common but it is possible to have the freckles on the lips. I do like them on the right person but I like most types of skins.

Make a freckle mask - similar to a transparency map. It should be white where you want freckles, black where you don't, and a smooth gradient between these areas. Then you hook it to the Blending value of a Blender node. In Input_1 you put clear skin. In Input_2 you put the freckled skin (usually by passing the color map through a spots node).

I wrote a thread about this around 4 years ago. If needed, I could try to find it.

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Quote - There was work around for Poser 7 that I tried and it was the wacro thing but it wasn't complete. At least I don't think it was. I think what I use is Poser 7 with no updates but maybe I will try it in Poser 2010. I just don't use it very much.

I wasn't referring to the workaround of manually running the wacro. I mean a code change to my VSS Python script that fixes it permanently so it actually works. But we all dropped that line of investigation because SR3 came along and solved the problem.

Original P7 without SR's is buggy as hell. I wouldn't use that.

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Thank you Bagginsbill! I will try that light meter and I will try your VSS again. I did it right but the results were unflattrering on the texture I was using.

I will post some more renders tonight

Thanks again.

MD:

Since you mentioned 2010 in the thread title, are you using Poser Pro 2010? If so, are you using render GC? If so, when you used VSS, did you remember to turn off the shader GC - setting the gamma to 1? If not, you would get bad results.

You want to use render GC or shader GC but not both.

Otherwise, if that wasn't the problem, please post your results. I have never seen VSS be unflattering to any texture. Usually it's the opposite outcome.

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A little demo. These are the four P8 Ryan ethnic textures, without VSS.

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And now with VSS.

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no I don't have poser 2010 lol I just called the thread that

Thanks for the tips though.
*BUsy now with the shader, and I will get back to you later, assuming you will be online. Thanks again Bagginsbill for the help. Its greatly appreciated

Quote - > Quote - There was work around for Poser 7 that I tried and it was the wacro thing but it wasn't complete. At least I don't think it was. I think what I use is Poser 7 with no updates but maybe I will try it in Poser 2010. I just don't use it very much.

I wasn't referring to the workaround of manually running the wacro. I mean a code change to my VSS Python script that fixes it permanently so it actually works. But we all dropped that line of investigation because SR3 came along and solved the problem.

Original P7 without SR's is buggy as hell. I wouldn't use that.

Ahh, I didn't know about that work around. Original P7 does some things with hair that they broke in the SRs so I don't want to upgrade. I will see if it works in Poser Pro 2010.

Looks like it does work in Poser Pro 2010 so I will give it a look and see if I can save it back to Poser 7 for working on stuff.

Quote - Original P7 does some things with hair that they broke in the SRs so I don't want to upgrade. I will see if it works in Poser Pro 2010.

What?!

Ok I was playing around with the shader. Sorry BB, I will use your VSS tomorrow, its getting late now. So what do you all think lol

It looks good except for the parts that don't. I pretty much have the same opinions as I first posted, except I see a smidgeon of SSS in the belly button, so that looks nice. But I don't see it around the nose or in the ears.

I still need my questions answered to provide specific advice.

It looks better than most people produce, but there are problems. First I need to understand how much light you're working with. I suspect it is too much. I need to know if you're using shader GC. I need to see the light meter rendered next to the head. I need to understand what you're doing (or not doing) with the Blinn node. We need to talk about light level, specularity, conservation of energy, lots of things. But I have no data - just some renders that I know I can make better. But first I need to know where things stand before I can give accurate advice as to how to change it.

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BB, out of curiosity...have you tried vss on Freak4?
I know how to use vss and have used it many times with V4, did a render yesterday of Freak4, loaded textures (that came with freak4) and then vss...the outcome was tossed but the skin looked a weird glowy fakeness. I know that is quite a lame description but it is the best I can do right now. :P
If you don't have Freak4 let me know and I'll re-render somerthing to show you.
Regards

Comitted to excellence through art.

The base is free, no? I'll go get it. I certainly won't have the texture map you're using.

[EDIT] Oh - I see you said to use the base texture map it comes with. OK - donwloading.

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What's the Power Loader? Do I need to download that?

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Hang on chief, I'm creating a render right now. I think the Power loader is for morphs??? but not too sure what the heck it is.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Hmmm, well now it isn't doing it! lol. Isn't that the Poser way? You see something, post a remark, "Hey, this is buggered" go to replicate it...and you got **nothing!

**Here is my render with D3D

Comitted to excellence through art.

and then another with Poser's manual setting that I use/tweak...to me it looks no different from D3D's render.

It definately isn't showing that weird glow thing it did yesterday...maybe my 12 oz. curls caught me off guard? :P

Comitted to excellence through art.

Are you seeing anything on your end that I am not BB?

Comitted to excellence through art.

I've posted before that you have to turn down the SSS in the skin shader when using IDL. And if you were doubling up on the GC, that would cause a glow, too.

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Grrr. The stupid f'ing Daz installer refuses to install the files where I say. I even tried the fake Poser.exe file, and tried asking for install for DS instead of Poser. It won't let me put the files where I want to. It insists they have to be in the main runtime, and I know for a GD* fact it does not.

I refuse to pollute my main runtime with Daz files.

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Wait - maybe this is the other installer problem. It's saying:

**Dependency Error

The required file has NOT been found. Blah blah will quit.

**It doesn't say what required file has NOT (SHOUTING BASTARDS) been found.

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Ok I can't sleep lol Ok here's my data! If only I could take screen captures.
My blinn node is plugged into the alternative_specular node, and haseccentricity at 1.00 and sec roll off at 0.0006 and the reflectivity at 0.0007. I have no Gc at all and the lighting rig is simple-1 ibl light at 100% intensity, 1 grey main light at 50% intensity and one spot light at 57% intensity.

Anything else you would like to know?

The IBL has no image on it? It is white?

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Quote - I've posted before that you have to turn down the SSS in the skin shader when using IDL. And if you were doubling up on the GC, that would cause a glow, too.

I haven't heard that before so this fact is new to me. The last 2 renders were with 1 IBL and 1 Infinite with IDL in the render. What is GC?
And...what would be the %/ratio that I turn them down by?

Don't you just love having to outsmart $20 apps? And in speaking with a current history DAZ is getting better and better at making you submit to their install demands. Just let me install the damn &*%# where I want to...okay?

Comitted to excellence through art.

Have you considered rendering my light meter so you and I can both confirm that you have a ridiculous amount of light, without having to list a bunch of parameter values?

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yes I tried installing the prop but I am using poser 8 and the folder system is crap. I downloaded the files and put them in a runtime folder but it doesn't pop up in the library. The folder shows up, but nothing in it (0)

Quote - yes I tried installing the prop but I am using poser 8 and the folder system is crap. I downloaded the files and put them in a runtime folder but it doesn't pop up in the library. The folder shows up, but nothing in it (0)

You installed it while Poser was running? Did you refresh the folder? If that failed, did you restart Poser?

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Quote - The IBL has no image on it? It is white?

Repeating my question.

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Quote - > Quote - Original P7 does some things with hair that they broke in the SRs so I don't want to upgrade. I will see if it works in Poser Pro 2010.

What?!

Poser 7 SR1 and subsequent things broke something that worked in Poser 7 with the hair room so I don't want to upgrade in case I ever want to render the hair.

I will give it a go. be back in a few mins, ok?

sorry about double post, but yes the ibl is white. is that a problem? I didn't add any Ambient occlusion either.

Quote - sorry about double post, but yes the ibl is white. is that a problem? I didn't add any Ambient occlusion either.

I asked if it was white because unless I know the color and intensity I don't know how strong it is. The effective luminance is the product of the two. White is the number 1.

So - the IBL intensity you are using is 100%. That's insane. That's like being inside a blast furnace.

And what do you mean you didn't add any AO? I see the AO clearly. Because you're in a blast furnace, without the AO there would be no shadowing at all.

A plain white IBL should never be above 20% intensity, and even that is too much in most situations.

Your figure is lit like she's inside a glowing ping pong ball. This is exactly the situation I first spoke about. Adjusting a shader to look good in this situation is basically a guarantee that when you try to use the figure in a scene with other props, it will look insane.

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If you can ever render the light meter, you'll see it is completely red.

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BB, the Power Loader is specific to DAZStudio. It has no bearing on Poser at all. For my Millinneum 4 installers, I select Poser (All Files) and then redirect them to whatever runtime I choose.

Quote - > Quote - I've posted before that you have to turn down the SSS in the skin shader when using IDL. And if you were doubling up on the GC, that would cause a glow, too.

I haven't heard that before so this fact is new to me. The last 2 renders were with 1 IBL and 1 Infinite with IDL in the render. What is GC?
And...what would be the %/ratio that I turn them down by?

GC is gamma correction. Poser Pro has GC built in. Regular Poser does not.

I've only written about GC a thousand times. Where have you been? LOL

And you ask what would be the %/ratio that I turn them down by. Turn what down by? Your lights? I never said to turn down your lights. I said to turn down the SSS. I'm talking about the PM:SSS parameter node inside the VSS Template Skin shader.

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here it is with Ao,(on the ibl) she looks different, you see. I am rendering with the light meter now, if that's still useful

Where is the light meter in the image?

lol I meant I am doing a render at this moment with the light meter

Quote - here it is with Ao,(on the ibl) she looks different, you see.
I am rendering with the light meter now, if that's still useful

It would be useful if we could see it.

And your earlier images also had AO.

You know there are two kinds of AO - light-based and material based.

You just said "here it is with AO". That's incorrect. Here it is with MORE AO.

You had it on somewhere before as well. Now you have more of it.

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ah ok more Ao lol sorry I am only learning as you can see from my join date.

Here is the render, this isn't good is it? too much red to the extreme.

sorry the file size was too big, hard to scale it down

Right - just for grins, turn off the IBL. How much light is there then. How does your skin look then?

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Notice how the outer ring, which measures specular, is almost black. In Poser, IBL is not used for specular (too bad). By having the 100% IBL and relatively weak main lights, your specular effect is completely unbalanced. The two parts should be roughly equally reacting to light.

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ok i will turn off ibl give me a few mins
Thanks for being patient, it must be frustrating people not knowing what to do. I plan to read your pots and other threads tomorrow. I never read them before

Quote - Ok I can't sleep lol Ok here's my data! If only I could take screen captures.
My blinn node is plugged into the alternative_specular node, and haseccentricity at 1.00 and sec roll off at 0.0006 and the reflectivity at 0.0007. I have no Gc at all and the lighting rig is simple-1 ibl light at 100% intensity, 1 grey main light at 50% intensity and one spot light at 57% intensity.

Don't use gray lights. Use white and adjust the intensity with the intensity dial.

The effective luminance of lighting is the product (multiplication) of the color and the intensity. Gray is a number less than 1. Talking about lights with an unspecified gray is pretty much the same as telling me nothing about your light. Plus, if you ever start using render GC, such light sets will be completely different, because the gray will be anti-gamma corrected, resulting in a different luminance. Get used to white lights, unless you're trying to make a colored light, like blue or red.

Your Blinn parameters are out of whack. But you wouldn't know it, because you have so little specular light and so much diffuse light. (Note: This is a Poser concept and has nothing to do with physics. There is only one kind of light in real life. The material decides to treat it as specular or diffuse.)

As a starting point, your Blinn values should be .4, .4, .4. It's easy to remember that way. It's not perfect, but way better to start with than what you have.

Once you get things balanced, then we tweak.

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ok here you go..hahahahaha.so dark

Great. Now we're getting somewhere.

Set your non-IBL lights to white. You said you have one gray main light and one spot light. By main, did you mean infinite? The light types are infinite, point, spot, and IBL. There is no "main".

Drop the spot light for now. Set your main (infinite) to 75%, white.

Set your white IBL to 15%. Set the IBL Contrast (in the material room for the light) to 1.

Your figure will still be dark, but that's a valid light setup. We will then GC your figure and all will be well.

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When I'm adjusting lighting, I don't do big renders or high render settings. You can get faster turnaround by doing a half-size render. On the render panel, there is a pulldown that usually says "Full". Change that to half for test renders.

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ok thanks bb, give me a mo

ok i did what you said. Here you go. Sorrry I forgot to include the prop in the render size...so stupid

Light Meter!

Right. So the figure looks really dark because you tuned it to work in a blast furnace.

What is the Diffuse_Value? Probably a pretty low number. Usually it should be .8.

Or is the shader more complicated, such that a simple number is not meaningful?

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Wait. I just did a check. This is why the light meter is so useful. You're not telling the truth about doing what I said. Which "what I said" did you do?

This is what the meter looks like with a 75% white infinite and a 15% white IBL.

The figure is stock base V4. No fancy shaders.

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the diffuse value is 1.0

I did exactly what you did lol Why is mine so dark? How do i do screen capture?

OK go fix your lights.

75% white
15% white IBL contrast = 1

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I did that, but when I put the white ibl to 15% it turns black

i know whats wrong give me a sec

ok I don't know lol

What is it I'm doing wrong I wonder?

I don't know. Look at your light colors. On the Parameters tab, the Red, Green, and Blue should be 1.000.

I have to get to bed - have a meeting early in the morning. I'll catch up with you tomorrow.

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yes i need to sleep too. I will try to post a screenshot of my settings tomorrow.

Thanks for the help

more tweeking! still can't figure out why I can't get my render like yours Bagginsbill.

ignore the seams, i didn't add the shader to them. I love the ambient of the skin now. You can see the blood underneath.

Your bump appears too high. You should decrease it. Also, did you set up your lighting as BB recommended?

yes, did you not see the previous posts? lol
All I get is darkness

Can you give us a screencap of your skin shader arrangement, extreme left side of the VSSProp, the number and type of lights you are using and their intensities.

I don't think it's VSS. There is no specular.

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you are right, there is no specular. I actually quite like the shader as is, even though there is no specular. I think I will keep this shader as seperate one, but advance with your ideas BB.
Sorry I have been busy all day, didn't have time to do any more work on the shader. So i will show you more tomorrow, ok?

BB, I sent you a sitemail

Sorry to reiterate and it's not really important since I'm using P8 now.. but I never heard about anything that broke hair in Poser 7, so I'm curious.. what exactly was broken with SR3?

MD - got your face here. It looks fine with VSS and the lighting I suggested. It will look even better with good lighting, instead of this ultra-simple basic test lighting.

I like the detail in the face, but the face is a bit pink, and the scalp is a bit gray.

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I tweaked a few VSS shader parameters and got this. But now the scalp is green.

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wow she looks great BB, but the lighting is a bit dull still, i think, could you show me something in a daylight scene.

Thanks, how did you get this result? I couldn't for the life of me lol

I don't mind the scalp being green, because I will be applying hair to her.

This is specular added. Can you tell, this is also a different light by Corvas.

BB's light setting for these renders pretty much simulate daylight conditions. The only difference is the lack of color tinting to the lights themselves. However, not all scene daylight conditions are the same and is dependent on your background images. In those instances, using P8 or PP 2010, you would elect using IDL within a skydome and forego using IBL.

Thanks hborre Heres more, what do you think?

It's improving. I noticed some artifacting on the upper left edge of her lip. Actually, I see it at both ends. What lights are your running now with this render?

lol the ears are the same, I haven't applied the shader to the lips and ears yet. I am using Valeria'a lights at Daz3ds store

New little experiment, added more imperfection, think I got abit carried away but I will tone it down, but I like the effect. This is my own light.

with hair and I added more shader details too, I think I am pretty much done here as I am happy with the result, but comments are more than welcome.

That looks very good.

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Agreed.

Thanks BB and hborre! Here's one more, a nice portrait ; )

thanks for the tips and about the specular! Doing specular maps really improves the skin.

BB, freak 4 is a morph of M4, were you installing it in the same folder as M4? Just a thought.

> Quote - BB, freak 4 is a morph of M4, were you installing it in the same folder as M4? Just a thought.

I am an idiot. Of course.

Yah, so VSS works great with the Sarsa textures that come with the Freak, as far as I can tell.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Head shot. I love the brows. This figure is a lot of fun.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

**MysticDaniel, are you going to offer your shader for sale or download?
**

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: My Shader 2010 opinions plz