I read the entire post about Gamma Correction and I'm a bit surprised at the stances that were taken on Gamma Correction.

I consider myself artist. Not because I do traditional art be it sketching or water painting. I don't consider myself an artist because I render in poser.  I consider myself an artist because I have taken an idea from my mind and have made a presentation of it.  I don't care if it looks photo realistic, I don't care if it looks fake, I don't care if it looks like a child did it.  How many times have people said that Picasso's work looks like something their child has done.  Did it make him less than an artist?  Does it make the child less than artist? No.

Regardless of if you use Gamma Correction or not, you have to first determine why you are rendering.  If you are rendering to produce realistic effects and lighting then you have to do the things that will help you accomplish it.  If you are rendering to produce work that stirs emotion in the human heart then realism is rarely what gets the job done.  Because it's not the realism that you are trying to capture but the emotion of it.

So before the battle lines are drawn just remember that we are trying to accomplish different things when we render.  Some of us express ourselves as more like Picasso and Salvador Dali, while other may prefer photo realism. When it comes to art there is no wrong way or right way to do it, unless you are trying to follow a certain style.  Other than that "the world is yours" so express and create what makes you feel good.

An argument that is never won. Because art is subjective in nature means that no one will ever agree exactly what it is ;o).

Laurie

Quote - An argument that is never won. Because art is subjective in nature means that no one will ever agree exactly what it is ;o).

Laurie

That even more reason to create what feels right for them then stick with that style.  If I had known Picasso's work as a child then I probably would have drawn more pictures and not cared if they looked real or not so long as they were creative.  And now as an adult, I find it nearly impossible to draw like a child even when I try using the opposite hand that I write with.

there are like 3 different sides to a coin LOL (i know there is only two in a normal world)

1. there are people that just render an image because they are interested in 3d but either dont feel motivated or inspired enough to grow out of their comfort zone. or they just wanna stay as is.

2. artists like me who are forever trying to learn new things and improve on what they already know.

3. those artists that are already good at what they do from years of schooling or self tutoring ....

and hence from there each artist has their own genre ....

me i feel comfortable only in dark fantasy or sci fi or just fantasy .... i'm not good at fluffy or child like images. .....

and i dont use gamma correction it does absolutely nothing for me.

My suggestion is: whatever makes it easier for you to achieve your vision, go for it.  The current Gc discussion/argument as definitely drawn battlelines, but understand that there are methods that simplify your workflow and reduces rendering overhead to create your art.  You may use a brute force method of expensive processors, mega ram and luxury video cards to blast your images into submission, or a technical approach which applies sensible settings and technology to reduce you computer's workload to accomplish the same end.  Which would you select? 

It is a matter of choosing the right tools to develop the style that is right for creating your art.

Well thats where that kind of opinion of what i am really doesnt concern me...

i'm not taking what your saying personally .... it just my thoughts after all .. on the whole "artist" matter that noone ever agrees on.

everyone can call themselves what they want, if someone like you chooses to give a name of sorts to the stages of where everyone is at with their work then so be it.

Sam - We do need a word for people who have an idea and try to visually represent it, and the word is 'Artist'.

I refer to people who create pictures, sculptures, drama, text, and sound for purposes other than pure instruction and technical illustration, and whose primary emphasis is aesthetic value and/or self-expression "artists" because it's much easier to type.

It seems kind of silly to say that no one is an artist. If no one is, the word cannot be used. I prefer not to strangle the English language in that manner..

Quote - IMO, you failed - EPIC FAILed - even, in the first sentence because you say you're an "Artist".  No you aren't.  Nobody is.  Anyone, even Picasso or Dali, Botticelli, Da Vinci or any of them cats, would curl up and die rather than proclaim themselves "Artists".  Except maybe Dali but he was taking the piss most of the time anyhow.  

You're as much an  artist as I am and I'm more of an artist than you'll ever be.  See what I mean?  It's total and complete bollocks.

Forget about what "you" are and think about what your images are.  No matter how easy/difficult/good bad/black/white/good/shite your pics are, if you claim you're an "Artist", you just scored 2 million per cent (yes, I know) on the pretension-o-meter and I'll slap you purple. 

Well from the history of people claim that they are an artist.  They usually share a few things in common.

1. They love what they do and could really care less about what other people think about their art.  Including the fact that other people may think otherwise that they are an artist.  I define myself.  I don't let other define me.  I'm an artist in what I enjoy doing because I enjoy it.  I may not be on the same level as other artists but that doesn't make me any less. 

If you are more artist than I am then that's fine. What you do that makes you an artist has nothing to do with what makes me an artist. Spend less time telling people what they aren't and more time enjoying what they share.

well said fighting wolf .... i agree with you.

Quote - My suggestion is: whatever makes it easier for you to achieve your vision, go for it.  The current Gc discussion/argument as definitely drawn battlelines, but understand that there are methods that simplify your workflow and reduces rendering overhead to create your art.  You may use a brute force method of expensive processors, mega ram and luxury video cards to blast your images into submission, or a technical approach which applies sensible settings and technology to reduce you computer's workload to accomplish the same end.  Which would you select? 

It is a matter of choosing the right tools to develop the style that is right for creating your art.

Yes I can understand the right tools for the right type of art  there's nothing wrong with that.  If a person wants to create Anime cartoons then books on Realism aren't going to help.  If a person wants to create Realism then abstract art isn't going to be the best tool.  A person always has to pick the right tools for the job. But if they are exploring on their own creating something that's neither "this or that".. or maybe part of "this and part of that" then there is no reason to stick to the traditional tools.  Many times a new path requires new tools that combine two art styles or some that invent new tools to get the job done.

.

Do you ever get the feeling that people aren't really listening when you talk?

This is one of those times.

The science of gamma-correction has little or nothing to do with art. It has everything to do with what a renderer does: uses linear data to process colours.

That's it.

Why is no one listening to that? Why all the hubbub, anyway? If you feed a sausage-maker eggs when it expects meat, you're going to get something like sausages, but not really. If you feed a render process sRGB data when it expects linear data...

There's no point to continue. No wonder BB started to lose his cool.

Art is art. Rendering is something software does. One is not the other.

Let me give you an example from the medical arena: sedation is not equal to analgesia. The degree of sleepiness is not the same as pain relief. Do you know how many nurses understand that? The fewest. And patients suffer needlessly because of this simple misunderstanding.

Applying or not applying GC has nothing to do with art. It has everything to do with giving your render engine appropriate colour information to work with.

Can it be that easy? YES! it's just that easy!!!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

the last time I used gamma correction was playing the original Doom...;)

Chances are, you'll never face a harsher critic than yourself, so if you're satisfied, it should be 'good enough' for anyone...

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - My suggestion is: whatever makes it easier for you to achieve your vision, go for it.  The current Gc discussion/argument as definitely drawn battlelines, but understand that there are methods that simplify your workflow and reduces rendering overhead to create your art.  You may use a brute force method of expensive processors, mega ram and luxury video cards to blast your images into submission, or a technical approach which applies sensible settings and technology to reduce you computer's workload to accomplish the same end.  Which would you select? 

It is a matter of choosing the right tools to develop the style that is right for creating your art.

I guarantee that those who use "the technical approach" are doing so on machines with a lot more processing and ram than I am. Nor has anyone managed to persuade me that that "the technical approach" will simplify my workflow, as opposed to making it impossibly complex.

I am beginning to think that I'm in the wrong forum.

Perhaps Poser, with all its flaws and the "necessity" of overly complex workarounds, just isn't the right software.

It's apparent that using GC makes one an artist. Is this even up for discussion?

Quote - > Quote - Sam - We do need a word for people who have an idea and try to visually represent it, and the word is 'Artist'.

Wrong, wrong and yet again wrong.

Anyone, yes Anyone who defines themself as an "Artist" with a capital A deserves rotten tomatoes, cabbages and other splashy and/or smelly fruit and veg throwing at them at high velocity.

Yes, but you threw the veggies at FW whose post most emphatically does not refer to artist with a capital letter. You're the first one who used it that way.

I also tend to use it with a capital letter at the beginning of sentences. It's an old grammatical convention, I know, but one that we still expect writers to follow except when they're being purposefully obtuse.

I prefer to call myself "artistic". I'm artistic, but I'm not an artist. There's a connotation of narcissism in that to me...lol. But that's just me ;o). And as one very smart person pointed out to me, someone who's been deemed an artist is most likely dead and if that's the price one must pay, I'd rather remain plain old "artistIC" for now...lol.

Laurie

Quote - Do you ever get the feeling that people aren't really listening when you talk?

This is one of those times.

The science of gamma-correction has little or nothing to do with art. It has everything to do with what a renderer does: uses linear data to process colours.

That's it.

I purchased Poser to create and not to be stuck on various technical things such as GC.  My entire goal for poser is to create what I like.  There are people that think the same way and there are people who purchased Poser to learn the technical side of things and there are people who go from creative to technical and have the ability to mix both.

So while GC has it's function, it's function has no importance of why many people use Poser.  Many people may get to the point where they want to get technical about things like that.  Take it like this. Someone can ask you to make a website based on what they want.  You see that everything that they want for the design of the site is wrong in terms of user friendliness, and search engine optimization.  Well guess what.  maybe the person doesn't care about that so you can mentioned it once and if they still feel the same way then that is just the way that it is.

How easy is? Simple.  Why did you buy poser? and for what ever reason. That's the way it is. Regardless of if you bought it to create art or to learn more about the technical side of it.  Either way.  It all goes back to what you like and what makes you happy.  And all of the pushing from either side isn't going to change anyone's mind if there goal is set.

Quote - I guarantee that those who use "the technical approach" are doing so on machines with a lot more processing and ram than I am.

Pentium 4 2.8 gHz with 1 gig RAM (almost 6 years old), NVidia GeForce 6600GT.

I chose the "technical approach" because I like to get the most out of Poser, not to show off my system's processing prowess.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

And there you just answered your own question.

What makes an artist and what is art? Whatever trips your trigger ;o). End of story...lol. Of course, for each person, that's gonna be different. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just means for every 50 people you ask that question, you're gonna get 50 different answers. It's pointless to argue.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Sam - We do need a word for people who have an idea and try to visually represent it, and the word is 'Artist'.

Wrong, wrong and yet again wrong.

Anyone, yes Anyone who defines themself as an "Artist" with a capital A deserves rotten tomatoes, cabbages and other splashy and/or smelly fruit and veg throwing at them at high velocity.   Art is a nebulous concept at best; those who define it or themselves by it end up vanishing up their own fundamental orifices.

Better to be a paint monkey, a pixel hack, a colour junkie than an "Artist".  Just make pictures however you make them and fuck the rest.

I've thrown paint around for probably longer than most people on this forum have been alive - and I'm damn good at it, too - yet I'm no artist.  Nor is anyone else here.   As I said before, pretension overload.

That's not to say we can't produce works of art.  Note the lower case.  Honest, it's really important.  I believe some of my 3D stuff has artistic merit and I know for sure there are several others here who tick all the boxes but to call any of us "Artists" is just taking the piss.

 

Don't sell yourself short.  There are things that you can do that some people only dream about doing.  Don't ever minimize your talents. Give your talents the credit they deserve FROM YOU. 
Why do you dislike the term "Artist" so much?

Quote - > Quote - I guarantee that those who use "the technical approach" are doing so on machines with a lot more processing and ram than I am.

Pentium 4 2.8 gHz with 1 gig RAM (almost 6 years old), NVidia GeForce 6600GT.

I chose the "technical approach" because I like to get the most out of Poser, not to show off my system's processing prowess.

I'm glad you take the "technical approach" because it's people like you that I go to first when I need to learn something about the technical side about Poser..  When I need to know something technical I'm always looking for BagginsBill's response or another technical person's response.  The first thing that I think is.  "hmmm that sounds technical" I better ask this question in the Renderosity forum because I need to know the technical answer to my problem and someone there knows.

Quote - ...Why do you dislike the term "Artist" so much?

Have you ever met someone who regards himself or herself as an Artist? :lol:

If I may, Sam, I think this is all about self-perception. People do innocently (i.e., without guile or pretension) refer to themselves as "artists" - as opposed to technicians or mathematicians or clinicians - but too many then claim some sort of "Licence" on that basis and that just plain tastes bad.
I'm guessing Sam's in the UK... being seen as "pretentious" is right down there with pompous or bourgeois or having halitosis: people tend to cringe. Learnt all that here in Oz (I'm from California most recently: "ten years ago" recently), which subscribes to much of the same standards.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - I'm glad you take the "technical approach" because it's people like you that I go to first when I need to learn something about the technical side about Poser..  When I need to know something technical I'm always looking for BagginsBill's response or another technical person's response.  The first thing that I think is.  "hmmm that sounds technical" I better ask this question in the Renderosity forum because I need to know the technical answer to my problem and someone there knows.

You flatter me enormously by putting me in the same space as BB, when he and I both know there's a chasm of understanding between his knowledge and mine.

As far as the art side of things: I'm lost. My lovely business partner has so much more skill and sense for this than I do, on the order of point-something to seventy-five thousand or so. Roughly. You know her as HeRaZa. So, perhaps I focus on the technical side because a true sense of art eludes me. I see art a bit like the ability to perceive colours or to put notes together to make music. You got it or you don't.

The technical side by itself cannot ever hope to achieve anything enduring, anything with an emotional impact, because it's just technical. Art appeals, inspires, evokes emotion of some sort or fuels the imagination. I haven't put anything into my galleries that would generate any of those responses, and I don't intend to: I know my limitations.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Ooo... another seasonal pissing contest! How drole.

Most of my friends are paint, draw, take photographs, sing, play music, write poetry, or plays some kind of sport.  They would all consider themselves some sort of artist in their own mind based on their skill level.. They often say things like  "I may not be the best but I still consider myself an artist because what I do means more to me than getting paid for it" and they say it's a part of them.

The only arrogant artist that I met was my 7th grade art teacher who constantly yelled at me about how sorry my art is and how I had no artistic talents and would never possess the ability to draw.  All of my life I enjoyed drawing up to that point.  From that point on I spent most of my life trying to erase the voice of her saying that. every time I picked up a pencil.  She wasn't horrible because she considered herself as an artist.  She was just a  horrible person regardless. She probably ate her own kids.  ha ha ha.

It wasn't until college where people would sit and watch me draw that it became clear to me that she lied and that there was probably something in her life that she hated and every time she saw me it reminded her of what she was lacking.

But that was the only bad person that said she was an Artist that I've met.

Quote - > Quote - I'm glad you take the "technical approach" because it's people like you that I go to first when I need to learn something about the technical side about Poser..  When I need to know something technical I'm always looking for BagginsBill's response or another technical person's response.  The first thing that I think is.  "hmmm that sounds technical" I better ask this question in the Renderosity forum because I need to know the technical answer to my problem and someone there knows.

You flatter me enormously by putting me in the same space as BB, when he and I both know there's a chasm of understanding between his knowledge and mine.

As far as the art side of things: I'm lost. My lovely business partner has so much more skill and sense for this than I do, on the order of point-something to seventy-five thousand or so. Roughly. You know her as HeRaZa. So, perhaps I focus on the technical side because a true sense of art eludes me. I see art a bit like the ability to perceive colours or to put notes together to make music. You got it or you don't.

The technical side by itself cannot ever hope to achieve anything enduring, anything with an emotional impact, because it's just technical. Art appeals, inspires, evokes emotion of some sort or fuels the imagination. I haven't put anything into my galleries that would generate any of those responses, and I don't intend to: I know my limitations.

Yes he knows a lot but sometimes that's not always a good thing. People who are highly knowledgeable sometimes forget to speak about what he knows from the perspective of a beginner.  Things that are basic to him may be way over someone's head.  But someone that's knows more than me, but less than him may be a better teacher to help me understand because that person has a better understanding of why I may not be grasping the knowledge because it was fairly recent that they were having the same problem.

That's correct that the technical side by itself cannot stand on it's own but even creative people have to learn something technical.  The reason my  renders after I learned poser were much better than some beginners is because I applied some of the technical art stuff I learned when I took art classes.   The technical things I learned from junior high art classes and college art classes I use in my poser renders.  But I couldn't use it until I learned some of the basic technical stuff with poser lighting.

oh by the way RobynVeil
Your gallery is full of comments from people who are impressed by your renders. 

Oh, my just when I thought we were all going to buy the world a Coke and live happily ever after. Oh well, what the hell.

BB lost his cool because that's his personality - brilliant man and probably a great guy, but that's just his style - don't blame the audience. I hear Einstein wasn't exactly warm and fussy either. And to be fair, I've seen him be very patient and tolerant and even shrug off chaff from people - you just never know which one you're going to get. He deserves a great deal of gratitude and respect for his contributions. I’m just as awed by his skills as anyone and I read his stuff even if it doesn’t apply to what I’m doing, just to see the man work. But, people cut him hella slack, to the point fawning indifference at times, and ultimately, I don’t think that is a good thing. I understand the rationale. As I believe he himself has said, he doesn’t have to do this, so I imagine folks tread softly lest he take his stuff and depart. If he were making cool stuff for Vue or Carrara maybe I’d feel the same way. My opinion, agree or disagree as you will.

Artemis, interesting grouping, though at the risk of incurring Sam's wrath :-) I notice you didn't use the term "artist" for the first group. Do you believe that the casual user who is comfortable with what they are doing can be an "artist?"

Sam, I do agree that there is probably a certain amount of pretension in self-designation but hey, we all want to be something when we grow up.

"...or a technical approach which applies sensible settings and technology to reduce you computer's workload to accomplish the same end. Which would you select? "

Now there's the nub of the problem to me. On the one hand you say "whatever makes it easier for you to achieve your vision, go for it," but then there's the kicker 'if you're not doing it my way, you're a not sensible dolt who substitutes horsepower for smarts.' I know, that's not literally what you're saying and, giving you the benefit of the doubt, it may not be at all what you meant, but it can come across that way. I’m not an artist (honest Sam!) but reading the GC wars threads, I certainly sometimes get that impression [in general, not to you personally]. You can blame us for being obtuse, for misunderstanding or twisting what you're saying but it is what it is. I came from psychology which, despite a bad case of physics envy, is still not an exact science. Perceptions often matter more than facts when dealing with human beings. Artists, real or self-proclaimed, if anything may be a particularly sensitive branch of the species. If you want to communicate with them, then you might consider that what may seem a perfectly logical observation to you, sometimes nets a negative response. That's just my non-scientific, non-artistic opinion and sincerely not intended as a put down. I’m just trying to explain why you’re inputting 2+2 and maybe getting pi in response.

Robyn, you keep emphasizing the difference between art and rendering. I don't think anyone is not hearing you, but it's like saying On the Origin of Species is not Genesis at a Baptist revival. I just checked the front page and “artist” is mentioned 10 times, “renderer” 0. Heck, they even used to use the tagline “The Artists Community,” or some such. The point is, most people here are here for art in some way or another. Some may be into the more technical aspects of 3D, but art is the common denominator. I’m honestly not saying that discussing technical issues shouldn’t have a place, but to the degree that you separate them from art, sometimes people may find them less compelling – any more than the technical superiority of Linux gets much traction with Windows users who just want to do their thing. I’m sorry that you or anyone else feels frustrated but I it’s just different points of view and sometimes the more one side tries to get their point across, the more less agreement there is. [Edit] I’m sure that your artistic skills on a bad day

Now that probably have succeeded in offending everyone, I will probably render a NVIATWAS as penance to Vicky for my part in profaning the temple with discord – I may or may not use GC. I suggest everyone else do the same and we can have a new, fun thread to show them off. Kumbaya peeps – peace out.

[Edit] Robyn, I’m sure your artistic skills put mine to shame any day!

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - Some of us express ourselves as more like Picasso and Salvador Dali, while other may prefer photo realism. When it comes to art there is no wrong way or right way to do it, unless you are trying to follow a certain style.  Other than that "the world is yours" so express and create what makes you feel good.

Artists are only famous if they were the first to use a new art technique.  No one cares about the artists that followed using the same techniques.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

You've missed your calling, LMcKensie: diplomacy is your forte.
And I concede your points.

In reading over the whole thread, one gets the feeling that the issue is more technology's dogmatic presence in art... where actually, technology is an assist to art. And that was really the point I was trying to make.

Quite frankly, there are enormous grey areas for ME in-so-far implementation of GC is concerned. For diffuse(), yet, no problem. Diffuse() and a bit of Blinn(), sure, I can even add the Conservation of Energy stuff to make that work. So far, my images make the Poser render machine happy (AFAIK).

But what about Reflection()? Refraction()? Transparency()? Note I spell these as functions (open-close parentheses)... and this is how I see making shaders: you make functions.

But overall, making shaders isn't art. All that stuff that goes on in the material room isn't art at all... and beautiful art has been created with Poser where the material room door wasn't even cracked once. Perhaps it wasn't correct but it was still lovely and inspirational.

Is being correct important? Dunno - now that I know about GC, can I still throw sRGB images at the renderer? Probably not... but I'm obsessive (after all, I'm a nurse - when you're a patient, you want obsessive). YMMV...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

I'm trying to resist adding to the mellee of opinion and suchlike but I just can't resist :)

Below is a dictionary definition of Artist for you

"One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts."

In my mind, if an individual can read that sentence and say yeah, I fit that, then they can call themselves whatever they want.  It is not really for others to say otherwise, they can only say whether they like that persons art or not.

Like it or not popularity is a factor, but lack of popularity is not a barrier to being an artist.

John

Fugazi (without the aid of a safety net)

https://www.facebook.com/Fugazi3D

"after all, I'm a nurse - when you're a patient, you want obsessive" 

“Doctors heal you and nurses keep you alive.”

Keep teching. I'm always delighted to see you (and others) continue to disprove the outmoded stereotype that technology is an exclusively male domain.

I seem to recall that photography was dismissed by "traditional" artists and digital art wasn't greeted all that warmly either.  Since they probably stem from different sides of the brain, it's not surprising that art and science sometimes make uncomfortable bedfellows, but they each seek to find truth in their own way. Or, as some pointy eared guy said,

"The glory of creation is in it's infinite diversity and the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty."  Let the church say Amen.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

If you drive, you're a driver, if you fight, you're a fighter, so I say that from now on all of us who make art are to be called arters!! :)

     I'm a borg with a crush on TinkerBell.

     I have that cold analytical Nordic personality, and my background is all hard sciences -even the electives- and my "craft" talents tend toward welding and blown engine modification.

     But I enjoy making TinkerBell animations. ^^  It's all sort of a mathematical play-puzzle. :D

     I'm pleased if someone else likes my models or animations, but I will follow my own interests (TinkerBell, Lord of the Rings, Narnia) regardless of how it is received by others.  I'm utterly indifferent as to whether someone judges what I make to be "art" or not.
  ~ "The dogs bark, but the caravan rolls on." ~

     My view is that if you do/make with the intent of expressing yourself artistically,   then the work is art.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

According to the topmost line on this page, there are 5136 artists currently online.

If SamTherapy's right and none of them are here, where are all the buggers? Let's go find them and poke sticks at them.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

Quote:
"The science of gamma-correction has little or nothing to do with art. It has everything to do with what a renderer does: uses linear data to process colours.

That's it.

Why is no one listening to that? Why all the hubbub, anyway? If you feed a sausage-maker eggs when it expects meat, you're going to get something like sausages, but not really. If you feed a render process sRGB data when it expects linear data...

There's no point to continue. No wonder BB started to lose his cool.

Art is art. Rendering is something software does. One is not the other."

Absolutely right.
Which is why statements from leading GC adherents such as "if you don't use GC all you'll produce is crap" are so misleading and unhelpful. Given the context in which they've been made the message comes across as: "if you don't use this mathematical technique when rendering then you can only produce crap artwork.

I fear it's the technical bods themselves that have blurred the lines and confused matters, and then they get upset because the distinction between art and rendering appears not to be clear to everyone.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

Quote - According to the topmost line on this page, there are 5136 artists currently online.

If SamTherapy's right and none of them are here, where are all the buggers? Let's go find them and poke sticks at them.

Phew! I's safe then ;o). I'm only artistic...lolol.

Laurie

What's 'linear data'

I think I tend to agree with the thought that tech aides in making art, not the other way around.
Some folks get their whities a little too tightie, but don't expect a leopard to change it's spots.
You have to make art because you want to, not for glowing reviews from others. If those nice reviews happen, then kwel. But don't be crest fallen because somebody steps on your art.
Remember, it's for your enjoyment first!

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote -
Oh dearie bloody holy buggering fuck.  Let me explain...

Anyone who defines themself as "an artist" has the capital letter implicit in the phrase.  

I am fully conversant with the rules of the English language - I have pencils older than you - and know full well that sentences tend to begin with capital letters, end with full stops and so forth, so the "mistake" I made wasn't done lightly, nor was it done carelessly,  which means, by any reasonable definition, it wasn't a mistake.  I generally expect the people I talk with - including those I post with on net forums  - to be bright enough to fill in the gaps.  I know sometimes this doesn't happen but I consider that to be collateral damage.

I'm also damn certain FW took my reply in the spirit it was intended (ie, being bright enough to fill in the gaps) so he/she/it doesn't need you to fight his/her/its corner.  That said, I could  give you a completely full and frank opinion of your post and somewhat blunt approach to irony but I'd be violating the TOS if I did.  So, take this in a sporting spirit and, have at you, Sir - or Madam - as the case may be.

Sam, you seem to be ready to go to extreme lengths to prove to yourself and others that you are not an artist despite your artistic abilities.  Pretension goes both ways and of all the posts in this thread, yours are the only ones that come off as being overly pretentious to me.  Pretension often goes hand in hand with arrogance and your last post proves this without a shadow of a doubt.  This is a public forum and there is no need for you to lay "between the lines" traps for others just so you can make yourself feel clever.

You can dress your speech with all the bollocks, fucks and shites you want but it won't hide your pretentious, arrogant nature.  Get a grip man!

 Vestmann's Gallery

 As for the OP, I don't call myself an artist and I don't know why :) But I´m sure it has absolutely nothing to do with gamma correction.  I always have GC turned on and it works for me.  I don't need to know how or why it works and I don't care if it works for someone else or not.

 Vestmann's Gallery

Quote - What's 'linear data'

I should have said "linear colour data" perhaps, but since Poser sees colour as numbers, it's just data to me.

BagginsBill explains it best, but I'll have a go. In order to be able to view images on our monitors and so forth, something called gamma-correction has been applied to the colour (and shades of grey). This includes actually any colours you see on your monitor, not only images. Poser requires uncorrected (un-gamma-corrected) colour information in order to process colours correctly. Un-gamma-corrected colour is linear colour data.
After Poser has finished processing (like in a Diffuse() node) then you have to gamma-correct those colours again in order for them to display properly.

Whether or not gamma-correctly leads to great art is not the point. It's about colour accuracy, not great artwork.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

TY RobynsVeil

Sometimes people use terms so easily and everyone else but me seems to know what they mean, so I just had to take a deep breath and ask, even if some might sigh lol

You're welcome, Apple_UK.

Please understand - few people seem to - that when you decide to change your methods to linearising colours before processing, then gamma-correcting afterward (in Poser 5-6-7-8, this can be done in the material room by adding a set of nodes; in PoserPro, you just tick a box, I think), you need to adjust your lights as well. There's another thread that goes to some length explaining why the poster has decided not to use gamma-correction and has posted images to show why. His lights were not adjusted at all, reflecting a complete lack of understanding about the whole process.

I cannot explain in as great a detail as BB did about how the whole gamma-correction process works and why your lights need to be scaled down after applying it: he's gone on exhaustively on the subject in a far clearer, better illustrated fashion than I could ever do. Just do a search on the Poser forum on "gamma" and user "bagginsbill".

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

"His lights were not adjusted at all, reflecting a complete lack of understanding about the whole process.

Stop lying. Thanks.

Quote - "His lights were not adjusted at all, reflecting a complete lack of understanding about the whole process.

Stop lying. Thanks.

stop being abusive. Thanks.

Quote - Stop lying. Thanks.

*Case 1:
A simple background scene by HoBoBo.
I plugged the textures into the ambient channel so that they aren't influenced by the lights.
As you can see, the scene renders exactly as the original photo without any changes.

There are eight infinitive lights in the scene.
Now switched on Gamma Correction. (PP 2010)
Suddely the scene renders blurry and flat !
Remember, I did not change anything else.

Let's add a figure.
While the skin is, well, OK, the face is horrible.
Brows are almost gone and everything has an ugly "soft" airbrushed style.

Now I switched Gamma Correction off, and everything looks fine.
The background is sharp and the figure has nicely sculpted shadows.
It's also neither too dark nor too bright.

Case 2: IDL + Gamma Correction

Again PoserPro 2010
The sky is self-lit by cranking up the ambient to 1.
There is a single diffuse light to add light and an infinite light to add a shadow.

Again, everything is very flat.
Especially the face is pretty bad again.
Car specularity is mostly gone, too.

Here the same lights with GC switched off.
You can see I had to "overlight" the scene to get the skin light enough.

Here is GC switched off again, but the lights have been adjusted.
Can't say I like the effect very much."

Here is the first instance of any mention of light adjustment. And this, with GC turned off.
I wasn't lying. I was carefully reading your thread, looking for some mention of light adjustment after applying gamma-correction, which, as you already know, needs to be adjusted (down) or your colours will be over-exposed.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - What's 'linear data'

y=mx+b... 

When ever I hear someone refered to as an "artist", I think of a past church organist who was utterly unpleasant to deal with.  People would excuse his egregious behavior, saying "But he's an Artist", as if that meant he was exempt  from being civil. 

When I was chair of the Council, there were issues with him, which we met about.  He started off by dramatically flourishing a letter of resignation, and I completely shocked him by practically snatching it out of his hand, saying "sorry you'll be leaving us".

Hopefully I'll be forgiven for that small lie.  I did catch Hell from some in the Congregation for calling his bluff, but I consider it one of the triumphs of my term.

So, I don't consider myself an artist-I'm a technician at best...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - > Quote - What's 'linear data'

y=mx+b... 

Not:
linear = sRGB ^ 2.2
?

Still learning, here... :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - When ever I hear someone refered to as an "artist", I think of a past church organist who was utterly unpleasant to deal with.  People would excuse his egregious behavior, saying "But he's an Artist", as if that meant he was exempt  from being civil. 

When I was chair of the Council, there were issues with him, which we met about.  He started off by dramatically flourishing a letter of resignation, and I completely shocked him by practically snatching it out of his hand, saying "sorry you'll be leaving us".

I am sorry, but you sound as if you are proud of this fact (??).
And to think how much you both would have grown had you taken the high road? Sometimes it is best to leave our first reactions at the doorstep.

Comitted to excellence through art.

 OH, heck.........I won't call myself a photographer anymore then.  Not going to call myself a mother, nor a computer tech, and......not even a female.  I might get myself into some kind of conflict with others as they proclaim to be nothin at all.  WTF,  I guess I will live with the pretense.

Teque.... who will "take the piss" and give it back.

Attached Link: Controlling Exposure Using Histograms

*"I say that from now on all of us who make art are to be called arters"*

Maybe a little too close to [F]arters. Imagineer, Conceptual Alchemist, Someone Who Wants To Draw Tits Without Being Called A Pervert?

For those interested in some post-render adjustments, here is an excellent article by Pixar's Birn with some good information on using histograms and a few good lighting tips as well. Not as hep as GC but hey, what is :-)

 

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - I am sorry, but you sound as if you are proud of this fact (??).
And to think how much you both would have grown had you taken the high road? Sometimes it is best to leave our first reactions at the doorstep.

I am Indeed.  This was not a "first reaction"-it had been going on for many years, and this was not the first time he threatened to resign.  His attitude and conduct were really hurting the Church.  We even had to hire extra outside singers to fill the Choir many Sundays. We now have a vibrant music program that is a pillar of the Church, and our Choir loft is overflowing with Church members.  I hear that he has a better situation at his new Church as well, so it was a win-win situation for all.

"Taking the high road" does not mean  being a doormat-sometimes the Moneychangers need to be tossed from the Temple...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - What's 'linear data'

y=mx+b... 

Not:
linear = sRGB ^ 2.2
?

Still learning, here... :biggrin:

OMG! My head's just fallen off

Quote - > Quote - I am sorry, but you sound as if you are proud of this fact (??).

And to think how much you both would have grown had you taken the high road? Sometimes it is best to leave our first reactions at the doorstep.

I am Indeed.  This was not a "first reaction"-it had been going on for many years, and this was not the first time he threatened to resign.  His attitude and conduct were really hurting the Church.  We even had to hire extra outside singers to fill the Choir many Sundays. We now have a vibrant music program that is a pillar of the Church, and our Choir loft is overflowing with Church members.  I hear that he has a better situation at his new Church as well, so it was a win-win situation for all.

"Taking the high road" does not mean  being a doormat-sometimes the Moneychangers need to be tossed from the Temple...

Just remember what they say about pride. Especially when it comes in taking pride in an act which lowers you to the same level as the one you're in a fight with.

Here is the real Sam Therapy, hoping to put matters right.

Please disregard all the above posts by "me".  They were made by a (now ex) friend in a misguided attempt at humour.

Sorry if any comments caused offence; you all should know me well enough by now to know I don't do that sort of thing.

@ FW, if you want to restart the topic, I'll be more than happy to contribute in a positive and helpful manner. 

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

 Man, you're friend sure knows how push ones buttons!  I got quite angry.  Serves me right though as I have played the same trick on my ex-girlfriends Facebook account ;)  Punch him in the shoulder once from me and I apologize for my reply post.

 Vestmann's Gallery

I am absolutely not going to wade through the damage done by my ex friend, so here goes from the top...

If you consider yourself to be an artist, you are.  If you don't, you may still be.

It all depends on what you're attempting and what is in your mind when you create something.  Thing is, it's back to the slippery slope of defining "art", which a lot of us - myself included - believe can't be defined.  It's a personal vision, not something imposed from on high.

My experience of developing my technical skills was such that I lost sight of what I was ultimately trying to say and ended up with a bunch of images which were improving in production values but lacking in artistic merit.  I am now at a point where I have nothing to say as an artist, but plenty to create as a technician.  That's satisfying to me because it keeps me going creatively - for now - until the Muse sees fit to visit again.

I believe all the CG tools available are there to be used if you choose.  If your image achieves your vision without them, you have created a work of art.  OTOH, you may find your image needs more bells and whistles in order to get the goal.

No real advice to offer other than, don't take your eyes off the prize.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Wow.

Ya know, if those fools in the 60's didn't add Gamma Correction to or TVs to make generated light look more like reflected light - we here, in Poser-Land, would be so much happier....

The point of CG is that it allows you to do whatever you want, however, if what you want requires photo-realism, then the laws of physics and mathematics are going to be rather demanding.

There are ONLY two rules of CG:

1. Figure out how it works and figure out how to fake it.

2. If it looks good, it IS good.

take care

Yeah! I sold my first Poster at Zazzle this weekend! Cha Ching! Prize! It was rendered in Vue though. LOL!

eh, I for one thought WandW's story made perfect sense. I don't even see that he was a jerk. The other guy (described as a big pain) tried to negotiate a conflict by threatening to resign. Why is it obvious that our hero WandW is just supposed to suck it up? He did the harder thing and took out the trash. That's not even bad as a Bible story

Sure maybe WandW is just an intolerant control freak and wanted an innocent guy gone, but that's not the story that was presented.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

I'm just doing this for fun and on a pro basis once in a while. Before I render, I envision how I want the scene to look like when it's finished. The I pick the features needed to accomplish this and that give the results I want.

Once I'm done, I want something that brings across what I intended and looks pleasing to the eye. Perhaps I didn't use all the features that I'm supposed to use according to this person or that person. Perhaps I didn't use what this or that person insist we all should use. I don't care.

All I care is that the image looks like I want it to be...... with or without CG, VSS, Tone Mapping, IDL, AO and so on. I could really care less if I didn't use IDL this time, so what? The image came out the way I wanted it to be, that's what matters. No CG used.... so what? Perhaps next time again.

Personally I'm getting of people who insist on using this or that..... I do this for fun and when I'm pleased with the image that's what matters. When I'm working for a client, I need to please him/her. I have yet to meet a client telling me you need to use CG or whatever, they really don't care. As long as the image meets their needs. They don't care what I used or didn't use, I don't care, all I care about is creasting something they way I or they like it.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

CG stands for computer graphics, not gamma correction. The abbreviation for gamma correction is GC.

Why do you insist on repeatedly responding to pressure that doesn't exist? NOBODY has told you, aeilkema, that you have to use any of the tools you mentioned. You are tilting at windmills.

The tools you mentioned are tools for realism. Your images (at least what you post in the gallery) are toons. Nobody has ever said you need any of those tools for toons.

The tools you mentioned are called for when attempting realism, particularly photorealism. I understand that you have no interest in that, and nobody is telling you to do otherwise.

Illustrations, comics, toons, these are not the topics in which anybody talks about GC, IDL, AO, and so on. It's like you're complaining that you're tired of people telling you that you have to use a hammer to make a birthday cake. While it is perfectly true that a hammer is not needed to make a cake, it makes no sense to talk about your right to make a cake without a hammer. Nobody is telling you to do that.

The conversations in which the aforementioned tools are suggested involve users who ask for help on how to get more realistic images. That is a subset of the community. That subset has a right to discuss the tools necessary to accomplish realism. This does not invalidate the work of non-photoreal artists, and as far as I can tell, everybody agrees with that. So who are you disagreeing with exactly? 

Go make some images.

---

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Is that sarcasm? I don't want to misinterpret what you said and react to something you didn't mean.

---

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Sure maybe WandW is just an intolerant control freak...

SHHHHH!  Don't let everyone know!! :lol:

LostinSpaceman does indeed  raise a valid warning about the sin of Pride  My 'pride' in being able to successfully deal with a potentially divisive issue while avoiding conflict in the Congregation is more akin to the satisfaction expressed by the Apostle Paul when wrote Timothy that he had "fought the good fight and finished the race".  However, I'm quite glad someone else has that job now-I did my time!

.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - > Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

BB posted some very interesting renders Here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - Is that sarcasm? I don't want to misinterpret what you said and react to something you didn't mean.

No sarcasm at all, I've rendered 8 images today, how many did you do?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

BB posted some very interesting renders Here.

Renders, yes, but no images......

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - > Quote - Is that sarcasm? I don't want to misinterpret what you said and react to something you didn't mean.

No sarcasm at all, I've rendered 8 images today, how many did you do?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Go make some images.

Great advice, hope you will do the same some day......

BB posted some very interesting renders Here.

Renders, yes, but no images......

What precisely is your point?  That because BB's gallery isn't filled with images he doesn't know what he's talking about?   Does pounding out renders make someone better at making images? I think not.   Rendering is easy.  Hit a button and grab a cup of coffee.  The difference is that BB understands what happens when you hit render.  Do you?  Fully?   I wouldn't recommend dismissing BB's insights because his gallery is sparse.  You may not need GC, realistic skin or anything like that but he's also come up with some great non-photoreal materials.

 Vestmann's Gallery

No point at all.... after all I didn't give the advice to go and make images, BB did and I just responded to it :-)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I truly don't understand you. I thought renders were images. You seem to be sniping, not saying anything constructive.

I made about 50 yesterday, and published 10.

Today I just published 2 more, on how to make glossy lips with just one more node in VSS.

Not in my gallery, but in threads, helping people understand how to do stuff.

So far, everything you post seems to be intended, IMO, to make people either confused or mad. What is that called again? Oh yea, trolling.

Now I'm going to a meeting with people who pay me a lot of money for my opinion.

You seem to think my opinions are worthless. What a joke.

---

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I don't understand you either, so that makes both of us :-)

Often when you make a point, you seem to need to have to back it up with one claim or another..... which cannot be verified at all....... I never understood that.

As for making people confused, for every one I confuse, but that's too much credit already, I'm sure there's one you confuse as well.

I was just replying to the OP and giving my opinion, if that's trolling fine....... what should we call you jumping on everyone that doesn't agree with you, even if it's not even directed at you at all? The only time I'm OK is when I back you up or help you, if I don't do that, then suddenly I'm a troll.

Anyway..... enough if this, until next time when I'll express my opinion again, regardless of whether you like it or not.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

No sarcasm at all, I've rendered 8 images today, how many did you do?

It takes me weeks to make one great image, and I do dozens of renders before I'm satisfied. but perhaps you prefer quantity over quality.

best regards,
Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Maybe someone could explain to me why these threads always turn into a pissing contest.

If everyone would just for a minute put their damn egos in a drawer and quit getting their digs in, some of this shit might be enjoyable...

Laurie

 If this were a real pissing contest I'd win for sure ;)

 Vestmann's Gallery

Quote -  If this were a real pissing contest I'd win for sure ;)

If it were, it sure as hell would be more fun that what's going on in this thread ;o). You can tell I'm getting tired of it...I'm resorting to bad language...lol.

I've got an idea: why don't we all check our egos and pretentiousness at the door before we respond to someone's post? Hmm?

Laurie

 Fair point and a good idea.  Sarcasm, humor and innuendos are also hazardous tools when posting on public forums.  It's a good idea to leave those at the door too.

 Vestmann's Gallery

At least humor is normally conveyed with a smile...

sigh

Laurie

Quote - If everyone would just for a minute put their damn egos in a drawer and quit getting their digs in, some of this shit might be enjoyable...

Now that I can appreciate...lol.

Laurie

So, when does the pissing contest begin?

I'm getting ready with a couple of beers...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Practice makes perfect. 

I'm about ready to go over to PoserPros and just talk to myself for awhile.

Laurie

LOL!!!!!!!

Quote - I'm about ready to go over to PoserPros and just talk to myself for awhile.

Laurie

I'm quite ready to join you there. I'm tired of being sideswiped by people's egos around here. Try to help one person and suddenly person number three jumps in out of nowhere to take offense at what you'd said and it wasn't even to them/at them. Talking to myself sounds much more relaxing. :tt2:

Quote - > Quote -  If this were a real pissing contest I'd win for sure ;)

If it were, it sure as hell would be more fun that what's going on in this thread ;o). You can tell I'm getting tired of it...I'm resorting to bad language...lol.

I've got an idea: why don't we all check our egos and pretentiousness at the door before we respond to someone's post? Hmm?

Laurie

I hope you don't mind me making an observation that might be enlightening.

Aeilkema thinks you're talking to me there, and I think you're talking to him there.  Yesterday, the same thing happened when JenX made a similar comment. JoePublic didn't believe it was directed at him and kept going, until Jen explicitly said she was referring to him, by name.

So if you think I've said something out of line on this page, please say so, because so far I thought I was being pretty conservative in what I've said.

---

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I'm talking about everybody bagginsbill. You, aeilkema and even myself on occasion and whoever else thinks that sniping and backbiting are gonna solve any damn thing or bear anything constructive. Yeah, sometimes the stuff's downright entertaining, but on the whole it's all getting very old and keeping those that want to learn something from doing so. Not only that, but it makes me wonder whether or not I really wanna participate in this place anymore because it's getting out of hand in a good many threads. I know we all have egos and I know this place has people of every sort, but we're all adults and we should be able to act like it. No, that doesn't mean that people won't disagree or that we can't get stupid and silly every now and then, but the personal dynamics that go on between certain people in this place are ruining it for some people, myself included. Light hearted banter and an occasional flare up is one thing, but it's damn near constant now. I'm getting tired of it all, aren't you?

Laurie

Yes, but you're just restating what I said in my first post on this page. Was it not valid?

I was pointing out that the constant complaining about "gurus" and "pressure" is not serving anybody. Then aeilkema responded with a sarcastic post, and later said it had no point. I don't see where any of this has anything to do with my ego. It has to do with me, too, being tired of reading this pointless complaining about something that isn't actually happening.

It seems there are people who simply do not accept any conversation about GC. We've had several threads demanding to know why it's being shoved down people's throats, and speculating all kinds of crap that is damning. All I've done is ask that those complaining about the pressure, particularly aeilkema, recognize that nobody is pressuring anybody. We're discussing and demonstrating techniques that, like any technique, do not apply everywhere. Yet there is this repeated claim that somebody is shoving it on everybody, and that simply isn't true. I'm tired of it. I want it to stop.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Sometimes you just have to be the better man and let it go because you know there are certain people who won't ;o). Ever.

Laurie

Quote - Sometimes you just have to be the better man and let it go because you know there are certain people who won't ;o). Ever.

Laurie

Words to live by!

Quote - Sometimes you just have to be the better man and let it go because you know there are certain people who won't ;o). Ever.

Laurie

At the risk of sounding like a groupie, Laurie - and not to throw fuel on the fire - but I can't see anything that BB said that should have been construed as being sarcastic or inflammatory. Aeilkema, on the other hand, has been nothing but. His attacks on what we've been learning (for which I've been immensely grateful - this stuff is available nowhere else) sounds designed to devalue the concepts being presented as worthless.
Bill speaks directly. That's to his credit. The attack is one-sided: from those who feel either threatened by this knowledge for some odd reason or who have an ax to grind about their own approach to Poser.
My 2 cents (or farthings...)

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

I see where you're coming from Robyn, but at this juncture, it's all just pointless back and forth. It goes round and round and never stops because no one's willing to give up getting in the last word and end it.

And for this thread, that's my last word ;o). I've gone on my soapbox. I'm finished now.

Laurie

So, to satisfy those naysayers: should this information only be available to a select few? Perhaps marketed with a high price-tag? No question it is valuable: perhaps giving it away is a mistake?

Pay for something, it attains value - get that same something for free, one questions its value. Human nature.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Fair enough, Laurie... and I'm going for a walk - think I need to calm down too, myself.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

the thread brings up several unanswerable questions IMVHO, as one man's troll is another's
righteous man, people who don't use poser may not consider these renders to be art, nobody
perceives these images the same as anybody else, et al.  there's just no mathematical certainty
or elegance to any of these subjective interpretations.

Leaving aside the social commentary ...

I don't believe that the gamma response curve of digital displays is at all a subjective interpretation. Forgive the "gobbledygook", but the sRGB color space is specifically a precise and well defined mathematical construct. It is well documented, and every computer display is built to that specification. Whether a given display succeeds or not in implementing that curve is, of course, a matter of calibration, but that is the curve they are supposed to implement.  It is not subjective. Any image, while it will look different on individual uncalibrated displays, on average will be producing the luminance values according the sRGB specification.

Further, it is a mathematical certainty that a screen filled with alternating black and white pixels, when seen from a distance sufficient to make it no longer possible for the observer to make out the individual pixels, will appear to have a "gray" level. This gray level is precisely half the luminance of the white pixels. Those that deny the meaning and relevance of gamma believe, wrongly, that an identical screen, filled with RGB 128, 128, 128, will be nearly the same half luminance. It is not. It isn't even close. That is the result of gamma.

If you render an object with a 50% light in Poser and compare that to the same render using a 100% light, but you don't gamma correct the outcome, then the 50%-lit render is less than half as bright as the 100% render.

Only a linear output device would produce 50% luminance given 50% lighting versus 100% lighting. There is no such device in the possession of any of the members of this community.

The contant denial of this fact is why I keep trying to explain it. The further denial, despite a never-ending series of demonstrations, is the reason we're having an argument.

The existence of a non-linear response curve in digital images is certain, mathematically precise, and can be dealt with trivially by flipping the GC switch in Poser Pro.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I've made a setup last week which actually proves your statement: I 've made scene in poser with two clothplanes and two highres spheres. On the clothplanes I've put a texture of a gradient black to white of 1024x1024, so with all the possible graytones which I made in paintshop. The two spheres only had a diffuse white shader, without any specular shader. The clothplane and the sphere on the right had gamma-correction, those one the left didn't. I used only single white infinite light which projected straight on the planes without shadows. The projection I used was a front projection , so I didn't have any perspective distortion. Above is result with a 100% light, the spheres are different but the planes just look the same.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

K, so I'll be the gadfly this time.

Since what you say is true (and I completely believe you!!!), gamma-correction is not really an optional process: it is central to correct colours since colour processing sRGB colours by a device that expects linear information will generate rubbish.

Since it isn't optional, why hasn't it been included in all versions of Poser?

Sorry, the question begs asking.

It really *isn't a "Pro" feature, is it? Not if you're going to generate rubbish without it.

I know - I should be asking SM...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Here is the second render with a 50% light. This picture actually made me understand what Gamma-correction does.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

This is a perspective view with a 100% light straight at the planes, still no difference in the planes.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

And perspective view (main camera) with an angled light, still at 100 %. notice the shadows on the balls, I didn't like the shadows on the right, but I realised that  a sphere without any indirect would look like that, like a half moon by example (look for stewers picture in the Gamma-correction thread)

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Here is the same picture but with IDL  and shadows activated, notice the difference with the other picture. The planes looks very much the same, but the spheres are very different, light is still 100 %

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Quote - K, so I'll be the gadfly this time.

Since what you say is true (and I completely believe you!!!), gamma-correction is not really an optional process: it is central to correct colours since colour processing sRGB colours by a device that expects linear information will generate rubbish.

Since it isn't optional, why hasn't it been included in all versions of Poser?

Sorry, the question begs asking.

It really *isn't a "Pro" feature, is it? Not if you're going to generate rubbish without it.

I know - I should be asking SM...

Here's where I think people get riled up. The word rubbish is only correct if NOTHING is done about it, i.e. if the user has not compensated. "Gamma correction" is the mathematically simplest and most accurate "compensation" for monitor gamma. But there are other ways. They include all the things people have done in the past:

1) Raise the light levels overall. While this raises the apparent brightness of the half-lit areas, it over exposes the fully lit areas. This produces the common yellow bloom.

2. Add fill lights selectively. Quite good results can be produced this way for a simple portrait. For a more complex scene, particularly a full room, this is difficult and time consuming.

3. Use IBL. Again, quite good results can be produced for a simple portrait, and much faster and easier than many individual fill lights. But still not easy or great for an interior shot where ambient light levels should vary throughout the different areas of the scene. I demonstrated this problem yesterday with the four Andy bots.

4. Postwork gamma correction - commonly done with the middle value in Photoshop "levels" dialog. Since this also causes hue/saturation shifts, it is usually followed by a hue/saturation adjustment, and then often a second levels adjustment. Success is possible, but requires a good eye, some skill with the tools, and must be done after each re-render. And, you can end up with information loss - the banding problem and the zero-data problem. I demonstrated this problem yesterday with the four Andy bots.

So - people have made do with these other "compensation" techniques, and they do work. But they require more effort than simply using GC.

As for why SM only includes it in the Pro version ...

I've chosen not to answer this question before and I'll choose not to do so again, if you don't mind. I do not want to have another arm-chair marketing manager discussion/argument/flamewar. I've been down that road before, with the very people grousing in this and other GC threads. Further, the factors going into that decision are not completely known to me, so I can't accurately convey their thinking. Nor is it my place to do so.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Fair enough, Bill... and thank you for your answer.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Good demo, bopper. However, the use of a 100% diffuse value on the sphere is creating a problem with IDL. The indirectly lit part of the sphere appears brighter than it really should.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

This is the same render, but with a 50% light.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

This also demonstrates why you can't use shader GC with IDL. At least, not fully at 2.2.

This is why I like Poser Pro 2010 so much more than Poser 8. With Poser 8, I have to use a mix of partial shader GC and HSV ETM. This makes things more tedious than with Pro 2010, where I can use trivial non-GC shaders.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

And my last picture with the ground plane also gamma corrected.  I had some strange "artifacts" on the spheres, untill I realised it weren't artifacts, but it is were the ground plane stops. The dark shadows on the top of the spheres are actually the background, which shows how good IDL works. Hope this was informative (a bit dull perhaps).

Best regards,
Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

I agree, but with dimension3D script you can change the strength of IDL much more then with the regular firefly settings, perhaps this will give better results with Poser8.

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

> Quote - >     4) Postwork gamma correction - commonly done with the middle value in Photoshop "levels" dialog. Since this also causes hue/saturation shifts, it is usually followed by a hue/saturation adjustment,

 

A quick tip for those who are doing postwork gamma correction in Photoshop:  To prevent hue/saturation shifts while using levels or curves, set the Adjustment Layer blend mode to Luminosity.

Interesting. I got my copy of Photoshop ten years ago. Photoshop 6 doesn't have adjustment layers. I'd have to duplicate the layer, adjust levels, then set the layer blending mode.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - > Quote - I'm about ready to go over to PoserPros and just talk to myself for awhile.

Laurie

I'm quite ready to join you there. I'm tired of being sideswiped by people's egos around here. Try to help one person and suddenly person number three jumps in out of nowhere to take offense at what you'd said and it wasn't even to them/at them. Talking to myself sounds much more relaxing. :tt2:

For the record I didn't take offense at your post. I felt bad for Wand and posted my opinion same as you, that's all.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

never mind that last post, I misunderstood it

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it