SamTherapy opened this issue on Jun 13, 2010 · 28 posts
SamTherapy posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 2:38 PM
I suppose all you folks will be familiar with the "infinite number of monkeys with typewriters" scenario. Has it ever occurred to you that the same thing can also apply to images? That is to say, given the right conditions, it's possible to generate absolutely every image ever possible.
Further, everyone here has the capability to do it. Good, huh?
There is a downside, though. It will take a long, long, looooong time. The programming behind it is dead simple, though. All you need to do is define a grid, say 800 x 800 pixels, then plot every single combination of pixels possible within the grid. To keep things simple, use black and white only. If you want to go the whole hog and use full colour, the time will increase dramatically; something in the order of 18 million or so greater. You could even increase the resolution of your grid but I have a feeling the universe will have ended before the program runs a full cycle. That said, if you have a long time to wait, you could, in theory, have the collected works of any artist, photographer, cartoonist, signwriter and illustrator right there on your computer, all for nothing.
Go on, I dare you. You know you want to. Hehe.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
bobbystahr posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 2:54 PM
I think that has been done mate...bout a year back there was some charity soliciting 1,000,000 images that would each be 1 pixel in a larger work....something like that, IIRC
Once
in a while I look around,
I see
a sound
and
try to write it down
Sometimes
they come out very soft
Tinkling light sound
The Sun comes up again
SamTherapy posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 2:56 PM
Larry F posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 4:24 PM
Bobby's right! I remember something about that - even went to the site they had. Don't still have the link though! Only one question, though, no disrespect intended: Why? LOL!
SamTherapy posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 4:49 PM
Answer: Why not?
It's doable and it'd be interesting to see just what would pop out in a reasonable amount of time. I'd be able to see the long lost pictures my dad painted for me when I was a kid, for one thing.
Sadly, the numbers involved are seriously big. Even a grid of 8 x 8 pixels has 18446744073709551616 possible combinations in black and white.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Larry F posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 5:09 PM
Good Grief, SamT! That sounds exactly like the kind of theoretical time-eating pastime I've worked so hard to escape! (I've fought hard with distraction all my so-called adult life!) Does sound like it might be somewhat fascinating, though! Actually, quite!
Might be something to do on a long trip - say to Mars, LOL! Maybe those guys in that Russian sequestering experiment might be interested. It certainly would ingrain patience!
pakled posted Sun, 13 June 2010 at 10:52 PM
actually, I remember reading somewhere that all those monkeys wouldn't do Shakespeare, after all...maybe Hemingway (short sentences...;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Lucifer_The_Dark posted Mon, 14 June 2010 at 4:46 AM
The monkeys & Shakespeare thing has been tried as well (sort of), someone sat a single monkey in front of a typewriter for 8 hours & got a single readable word out of it.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
bagginsbill posted Mon, 14 June 2010 at 8:43 AM
Quote - Answer: Why not?
It's doable and it'd be interesting to see just what would pop out in a reasonable amount of time. I'd be able to see the long lost pictures my dad painted for me when I was a kid, for one thing.
Sadly, the numbers involved are seriously big. Even a grid of 8 x 8 pixels has 18446744073709551616 possible combinations in black and white.
While you got the right value for 64 pixels (8 x 8) you have not seemed to grasp the significance of exponential growth.
You mentioned an 800 x 800 image. Let's consider only one ROW of that image.
That single-pixel wide row of 800 pixels, assuming only black and white possible states for each, has the following number of different possibilities:
6.68 * 10 ^ 240
That's a number with 240 DIGITS. And that is for ONE ROW.
To help you understand how big that is, the age of the universe, in seconds is only an 18 digit number. This number is 240 digits. And it is just one row.
Are you beginning to see the scale yet?
Current estimates of the number of ATOMS in the universe vary between 10 ^ 80 up to about 10^83.
Suppose you were magically able to demand that the universe start over, that every ATOM in it is an image renderer, and that every ATOM was working to produce 1 trillion images per second. Then given the current age of the universe, the number of images generated so far by the entire enslaved universe would be about 10^113.
Yet, a single row of 800 pixels has 10^240 possible states. The ratio of done versus not done is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. If each atom were an entire enslaved universe, and all were running in parallel, we'd still not have produced all the images possible in 800 pixels (one row). They would all mostly consist of black pixels yet.
Now consider that there are 800 rows in an 800 by 800 image.
I can't even begin to tell you how big that number is.
No, this is not doable at all.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
SamTherapy posted Mon, 14 June 2010 at 9:15 AM
Actually, I did consider the significance, BB. That was me whole point about the numbers being huge. It is doable. Sort of. I did state the universe would end before the program completed a cycle, though.
Let me expand on that...
Although it's simplicity itself to write the program capable of generating the output, it's a whole other matter to sit and wait for it to complete. It's simply an extension of the fact that any sequence of pseudo random numbers can, given time, be predicted flawlessly. Unfortunately, time ain't on our side.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
EnglishBob posted Mon, 14 June 2010 at 9:21 AM
Sam, you and Bagginsbill have just put paid to a render I was going to do. I'd already done the thought experiment some time ago, you see, but gave up on the maths once I realised Windows Calculator didn't have enough digits (Note: this is a joke).
I did get as far as writing the caption though.
Ars Longa, Vita Brevis
*Life is short,
Art is long-lived;
Opportunity is fleeting,
experiment perilous,
and judgement difficult.
Uncertain about what art is, don't know how to make it yourself, but you know it when you see it? Then Art-O-Tron is for you.
Using supercooled pseudorandom parallel quantum computing technology, Art-O-Tron generates every possible 46,080,000 bit binary number once and once only. Each number represents a unique 1600 x 1200 pixel image with 24 bit colour.
The attentive operator need only watch carefully, and capture desired images using the ergonomic user interface. The inattentive operator may be reassured to know that a large number of the images will differ from each other only in imperceptible details; so if you miss your ideal composition, sooner or later* you'll see something nearly as good, or maybe even better. Most of the images will be composed of formless noise, so you can get on with the rest of your life during those periods.
Art-O-Tron's output includes, in reasonable facsimile, every image that has ever, or ever will be seen by any sentient being whose visual system follows the human pattern. Among them are images of incredible beauty; images of incredible horror; and every possible variant on them. Among them are the Mona Lisa; a mirror image of the Mona Lisa; a truly marvellous proof of Fermat's Last Theorem; next week's winning lottery numbers; all of the non-winning lottery numbers for every lottery anywhere, ever, in every possible font; every page of Art-O-Tron's schematics, and an endless number of designs which won't work. Among them are a screenshot of your computer monitor right now; and my complete output, past and future, including this image, and also the ones I never got around to making. Among them are the circumstances of your death, and every possible false representation of that event.
*No warranties or guarantees of satisfaction are given, nor should they be implied. Art-O-Tron Corporation accepts no liability for the mental or physical health of its customers or bystanders except where allowed for by law. Art-O-Tron should not be relied upon as your sole source of entertainment. Art-o-Tron's textual output, where this occurs, should not be regarded as accurate without independent corroboration. Medical experts advise that you take regular breaks. Keep out of sight of children, animals, the infirm and elderly, and the mentally ill.
Due to current uncertainty over the amount of dark matter that exists, not to mention the vagaries of human taste, it is impossible to guarantee that you will find any acceptable (or even recognisable) images before the heat death of the universe, or the Big Crunch, whichever it turns out to be.
SamTherapy posted Mon, 14 June 2010 at 9:36 AM
ar3d posted Mon, 14 June 2010 at 3:46 PM
Have you considered looking at some kind of machine learning algorithms? Otherwise it seems to take more then the lifetime of the Universe.
raven posted Tue, 15 June 2010 at 10:58 AM
Attached Link: http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/
For bobbystahr and Larry F, here's the link for the site that sold a million pixels. And they all went too!jeffg3 posted Tue, 15 June 2010 at 5:33 PM
Quote - Although it's simplicity itself to write the program capable of generating the output, it's a whole other matter to sit and wait for it to complete.
Quite simple, just upgrade your processor!
SamTherapy posted Tue, 15 June 2010 at 7:44 PM
Quote - > Quote - Although it's simplicity itself to write the program capable of generating the output, it's a whole other matter to sit and wait for it to complete.
Quite simple, just upgrade your processor!
True. The newly developed dark beam laser looks promising for a quantum processor switching device. May have to wait a few years for it to be developed, though.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Nance posted Tue, 15 June 2010 at 8:20 PM
Musta been interesting to have sat in a circle with you guys in the 70's.
SamTherapy posted Tue, 15 June 2010 at 8:24 PM
Quote - Musta been interesting to have sat in a circle with you guys in the 70's.
I was 11 in 1970 and I feel very sorry for anyone who was around me through that decade. :)
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
jenay posted Wed, 16 June 2010 at 7:41 AM
templargfx posted Wed, 16 June 2010 at 8:07 AM
I'll write a small application that does this, that also estimates the time it would take to finish a predifined grid, and let you know what it comes up with for an 800x800 black'n'white image!
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
jenay posted Wed, 16 June 2010 at 8:17 AM
OK, folks - my pic was a cheat, you are right.
and here is the equation, just as simple as:
400*300=120000 (number ox pixels)
2^120000 (number of possible combinations, where a pixel can only hold black and white)
unfortunatel my computer doesn't compute this value ...
bagginsbill posted Wed, 16 June 2010 at 10:50 AM
The number is 36,124 digits long and is approximately:
3.97630489427430977695532180774654284295828462954550... x 10^36123
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
SamTherapy posted Wed, 16 June 2010 at 11:13 AM
Quote - The number is 36,124 digits long and is approximately:
3.97630489427430977695532180774654284295828462954550... x 10^36123
Or, an afternoon's work. :lol:
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
3Dave posted Fri, 18 June 2010 at 9:33 AM
Quote - > Quote - The number is 36,124 digits long and is approximately:
3.97630489427430977695532180774654284295828462954550... x 10^36123
Or, an afternoon's work. :lol:
I think it might take longer than an afternoon to say that number let alone calculate.
Didn't someone actually try the monkey/Shakespeare thing, after a long while the nearest they got to the bard was "The quality of mercy is not strnen" Used by The Mekons as a title for their first album.
bagginsbill posted Fri, 18 June 2010 at 10:20 AM
Just to add to the silliness, I calculate the time it would take to say the number out loud as about 3 hours 21 minutes.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
SamTherapy posted Fri, 18 June 2010 at 4:49 PM
Quote - Just to add to the silliness, I calculate the time it would take to say the number out loud as about 3 hours 21 minutes.
Impressive. :)
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
moogal posted Fri, 18 June 2010 at 7:50 PM
Quote - The monkeys & Shakespeare thing has been tried as well (sort of), someone sat a single monkey in front of a typewriter for 8 hours & got a single readable word out of it.
That's only because they didn't translate it from Monkey to English.
flibbits posted Sat, 19 June 2010 at 1:00 AM
Shakespeare written by Monkeys.
A rose, geeeeeeeeeek!!!!!!!! ah aH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! sweet.