Some of you may not know me very well, but I sit around and think a lot about various things. Things I see and notice make me muse on hypothetical situations that, based on current events, are a distinct possibility. On that note, allow me to throw something past the group and see what the rest of you think:

We're all familiar with the Daz version 4 figures. Of course we are. We're also aware that the functionality of those said figures pose some problems over the version 3's due to the existence of DazStudio and the need for said figures to play nice in that program. Being that DS is Daz owned software and that Daz figures are of course Daz owned, and being that (they're a business after all) future versions will probably drift even farther away from Poser compatibility, has anyone given any thought to the future of replacement figures for Poser? Yes, yes...I know Poser has it's own figures. And I applaud SM's efforts in making them. However, they fall far short of what most folks want in functionality and, well, appearance ;o). I'm being nice here.

What if, in the event that there were NO MORE Daz figures, would the Poser community do? After all, we depend on Daz for the figures we use and make products for. Let's say for the sake of argument that there were no more future versions of Daz figures. Without a plan B, there goes the vendor sales, the market in general. Things grind to a halt. Much as I hate to admit it, this community is driven by those figures. So what do we do? Do we all become traitors and drop Poser for DS? Some of us will, I'm sure, but what about those that love Poser and don't care to jump ship?

I guess what I'm saying is that this might be an opportunity for the right people. People that love Poser. People that are good modelers and scripters. People that have excellent ideas that have never come to fruition because, well, everyone uses Daz figures...lol. Where are the people who are working on Poser only figures, plugins and products that improve just Poser's functionality? Sure, there are some nice plugins for Poser, but nothing really innovative (I must however give a nod to people like bagginsbill, who with Matmatic and other scripts have made things more functional, but not really in an easy way...lol). Certainly no figures that have caught on like the Daz figures. With the gobs and gobs of talent in this community that astounds me.

What would we do if the Daz figures went away? Would we go away too? Or would we have something planned? A community plan B as it were? We may in the future, if things go like I foresee, need to save our own asses if we want to continue Poser as a hobby and have it shine and innovate and continue.

Sorry for being so verbose. I'm not normally...hehe.

What do you think? Have any of you thought about it as well? Inquiring minds wanna know ;o).

Laurie

I don't know that Poser would survive if DAZ figure support goes away. It could, and should, but the masses would migrate over to DS. The problem is marketing. DAZ are masters at it. No matter how good a figure is that is not DAZ, it won't do exceptionally well because it doesn't have the DAZ name attached. Part of that is that people figure if it is a DAZ figure, there will be support of it in the future.

There have been very good figures that weren't DAZ in the past. Where are they now?

This is just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Quote - I don't know that Poser would survive if DAZ figure support goes away. It could, and should, but the masses would migrate over to DS. The problem is marketing. DAZ are masters at it. No matter how good a figure is that is not DAZ, it won't do exceptionally well because it doesn't have the DAZ name attached. Part of that is that people figure if it is a DAZ figure, there will be support of it in the future.

There have been very good figures that weren't DAZ in the past. Where are they now?

This is just my opinion, for what it's worth.

IMVHO, that mindset is gonna have to change. Is anyone really thrilled with the version 4 figures anyway? I'm not. They look unrealistic - even a step backward from the version 3 figures and they're, frankly, a nightmare to use what with all the morph injections and initializations and hoop jumping and everything else. That's only gonna get worse. Daz isn't the only business on the planet that has brilliant marketing skills ;o). Some enterprising folks could do just fine I'm thinking...lol.

Laurie

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees something like this coming in the not too distant future, I've mentioned it before & been told to pull my head out of where they suggest I've got it firmly placed.

The Daz Gen4 Figure is nice, but it's not great & yes I said figure not figures, it's a single template that they've morphed to different shapes, a bit like the Emperors new clothes in my opinion, they're selling thin air & people are falling over themselves in their haste to beg for more.

I'm not too sure if there is a plan B though, I'm no modeller & my texturing skills are next to useless. Lets hope someone who can do it actually does it & we can get back to normal even without Daz & it's naked Emperor.

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Poser Pro 2010 SR1

I've been thinking about this a long time Lucifer_The_Dark...lol. You definitely don't have your head up your ass. It's those that tell you that you do that have theirs firmly placed ;o). Some don't want to think about the possibility and so just blow it off as something that will never happen. I however, am a realist. I can see the way the wind is blowing. And it's a foul wind indeed ;o). As far as I'm aware, no one's prepared or been planning for it. I posted this thread mostly in an effort to make people really think.

Laurie

We only have ourselves to blame.

"I must use V4 because everyone else is using V4"

"I must do another V4 bra of the week because that's all that sells."

Or one could get creative. There are a boat load of other figures available, the vast majority of which are supported by Wardrobe Wizard and the other clothing converters. Granted one might actually need to learn how to use Poser if one wanted the figure's rear calf muscle to be just so; because there would be no instant rear calf FBM with a one click pose file to apply it. Again get creative, deal with it.

Oh but my figure only uses 15 files but V4 needs nearly 3000 to make it work so my figure must be no good. Really? Someone recently put up a reworked Posette. I thought it was a very good illustration of what can be done if one put ones mind to it. We don't need new figures, just learn how to use the ones we have got.

Oh but its so difficult.
Yes 3D graphics is difficult, if it were easy I would have lost interest years ago.You have a choice, continue to be spoon fed with 64 hair shade MATS and 16 hair fit poses or spend some time learning by trial and error.

Crabs in a bucket.
Break out, do something
Get creative.

Quote - Crabs in a bucket.
Break out, do something
Get creative.

And I couldn't agree more ;o).

BTW PhilC, you were one of the names I can count on one hand who actually try to innovate the program...lmao.

Laurie

The thing is that if DAZ creates a new figure, the old ones are still there. Sure, a lot of people might want to update, since that seems to be the way things work, but some are fine just working with the last generation. It is a question on whether the benefits will outweigh the cons.

To be honest, I am not a big fan of DS and I am not a big fan of V4 (Though I do like M4) but I do see splits happening.

Poser tried a new joint system in the latest iteration but I know it wasn't very well received.

I do think the two companies need to talk more (which has been happening to some degree) so there is hope.

I made the decision a while back to leave. (you can see how that worked out! LOL in the end it's turned into a real cut down in posting).

why? mainly because of the mindsets. sorry, I want to use my mind and think, not use some canned solution marketed to me by someone. examples of this are when someone asks 'can you do insert here in poser?' and are told to 'buy insert Carrara/Cinema/Vue/flavour of the moment' instead of someone sitting and thinking how can we do this in what we have?

add in the total reliance on one set of figures (yes I dislike Daz but thats for different reasons) that are used over and over and over.. c'mon! you yell when someone says 'cookie cutter art' yet using the same figures and techniques over and over is the very definition of Cookie Cutter!

For the most part, with some welcomed exceptions, Poser/DS 'art' has become just a product shot eye candy. If that's your thing, then great!

I myself use older figures mostly. Actually, my main art centers on landscapes and architecture so i tend to use Vue more; but when i need a person in the scene I generally use V2 or Miki 2 or Apollo. They are much easier to deal with.

I still use V3 and M3 because I have the most stuff for them. I will use V4 and M4 but mainly if they can be naked , or wearing the one outfit I have for them. I know I should buy stuff but I really cant afford it , so I am FORCED to make mostly naked pics.

I hink if Daz quit Poser compatibility , a bunch of vendors would step up. There are figures at Renderotica and I am sure others are there.

In that case, we can only hope someone like Aery Soul or Blackhearted steps in and makes a totally new figure. I'd also suggest dinoraul, but he might accidentally add a tail or something out of habit. ;)

Anyways, Laurie Rpublishing would be foolish in the case you've presented not to put out a figure ASAP. If it's good enough, it might be able to capture a lot of the post-daz market. In fact I think I've suggested that they make their own figure to them before in chat.

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Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

There are plenty of other figure artists out there. For example, Anton could create a girlfriend for Apollo and corner the market. Yeah, it would be a shame if Daz went away, but nature abhores a vacuum, someone would step in.

How about this scenario: all Daz and other 3d human figures are made illegal for possession by unlicensed persons because they enable the creation of child pornography and presence of any modify-able 3d human figures on your computer makes you a suspected child pornographer.

"Facts are the enemy of truth."

how about no Skuts?

that scenario will just cause a huge fight and get the thread locked. how about we don't go there and keep things moving along ? (plus it's been covered to death already)

Anton is gone and probably for good; 2. If "someone" steps in, who? Is anyone actually working on it?; 3. As for your last question, I'm not even going there.

Laurie

Attached Link: LINK Poser 5 question

In honor of the topic( Working the Stuff one already has)

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Heat and animosity, contest and conflict, may sharpen the wits, although they rarely do;they never strengthen the understanding, clear the perspicacity, guide the judgment, or improve the heart
Walter Savage Landor

So is that TTFN or TANSTAAFL?

Have we forgotten Miki, Koji, Jessi, Marvin, etc? They are still out there with some Face Room support from Content Paradise. There is also still content available. Maybe these G2's might get resurrected. Miki3 is definitely on her way to be released some time soon.

not forgotten them at all.
but the practical fact is, without a certain name on them, they've been ignored.. and that's a rather stupid attitude really.

now someone will popup and go on about market forces etc. ok valid... but hey. why not push to break the monotony?

What we need is a name we already know to get the ball rolling and the assumption that the figure/figures will stay updated ;o). Miki has been sporadic at best (although her makers do have the Daz practice of "will be released soon" down to a T...lol).

Laurie

Laurie, the possibility is real and I am sure we all think about it from time to time. I, for one, am looking closely at the MakeHuman development. Either with Blender or with Poser, that seems a possible source of figure material for the future.

http://www.makehuman.org/

I am not likely to convert to Daz Studio, unless that interface gets a major overhaul. I just don't relate to it.

It does seem ironic that I am sitting with over 40GB of Poser content and worrying where figures will come from in the future.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

It is not the fact that it is a name, it is the fact that they bend in the middle of the forearm ;) I like parts of the G2 series (mainly the heads) but anything below the neck has a lot of issues if you want to bend them.

I occasionally use the poser native figures, if I need an out of the box background figure, but they have a disadvantage over the daz figures.
Poser native figures look like people.
I sometimes see posts by people like dphoadley and think "why does he still go on about using posette when the Daz figures are better?" But you know he's right! After Poser 4, when the bundled figures were given names, they became people. They already had human faces.
You would think that an advantage, but even as someone who doesn't create figures I can see that this makes it harder to create unique morphs and characters for them, where as with the Daz figures you are starting with a blank slate.

:-) if I'm redecorating the walls in my house, it's easier if they are plain and flat. I can paper them or paint them. If they are already papered or have some kind of textured finish on them, I have to strip all of that off and possibly use tons of filler before I can even think about starting on the finish.

It's good to have out of the box ready to use characters, I would imagine that most people want something that they can build upon, with plenty of partial morphs etc to help them. The face room seemed like a great idea when it was announced, but the vast majority of people cannot get a half decent head morph from it and although I own Poser 8, I don't even know if the new figures support it (and frankly couldn't care less). I've seen head morphs done with software like Face Gen etc which are way better than ones done in the Face Room.
Several people have mention creating their own figures, that's great. I've used PhilC's quite a bit, I like them, but like the post Poser 4 figures, they are characters, they've already been "moulded". I know that other people have created figures in a similar vein to the Daz ones, but without the support they need from customers or merchants.
The bottom line is that if Poser wants to continue in the future without it's reliance on Daz figures, it is the company who owns and sells it (whoever that is this week) that needs to rethink the type of figures it produces and add better support for them. That should be their goal. After all we are buying a character based 3d program from them, and it seems that although many people here have said they don't like the Daz figures ( I do for the most part, although I cannot get my head around Daz Studio therefore hate that!), they are the ones that are being used the most, so something has to be seriously wrong!

I hope that in Laurie's revolution, many great new figures get made, :-) but ultimately shouldn't that be what the people who are selling us this program should be doing!

Daz Studio 4.8 and 4.9beta, Blender 2.78, Sketchup, Poser Pro 2014 Game Dev SR5 on Windows 8 Pro x64. Poser Display Units are inches

Quote - It does seem ironic that I am sitting with over 40GB of Poser content and worrying where figures will come from in the future.

I know! LOL. It seems absolutely crazy, but the simple fact is that the Poser program itself doesn't stay the same, therefore the figures can't either ;o). They have to keep up with the software. But if it helps, everyone else has the same massive collection...lol.

Laurie

I rather agree with you DarrenUK. Daz figures are as fugly as the day is long, but at least you can make them look like different people (for the most part). I think they may be a little TOO bland, at least the version 4s, but oh well. It's easier to add things than it is to take them away, like you said. And I think it should be the maker of the software who replaces the Daz figures for Poser. What they need to do though is get more input from the people who will ultimately be using those figures rather than forging ahead with no idea what anyone wants (or doesn't). Until they do that, everyone will be totally dissatisfied with them.

Laurie

Quote - how about no Skuts?

I work for law enforcement. When I demonstrate Poser, the first question I'm asked is enevitably can I use this to make porn. I'm only speaking from experience.

"Facts are the enemy of truth."

LaurieA, I think you guys have hit on the key.

Unless there is a change in either Poser or the Characters in the future that offers dramatic new capabilities, there is no real motivation to upgrade. I didn't go to M4/V4 when they were first released. I saw no real advantage UNTIL the vendors started making stuff FOR THEM that I wanted to be able to use.

The Gen 4 characters could be the end of the line and it wouldn't affect what I do with Poser. With over 100 Gigs of content, I think I'm fixed for the forseeable future. It's not what do I really need it's what would I LIKE that I don't already have.

I think there is going to have to be a paradigm shift in the way the programs do what they do for the scenario you imagine to come to be.

Besides, I think Daz knows that making the figures incompatible would be major foot-shooting. It would be like Poser making the Daz characters not work anymore.

Skuts, I'm speaking from experience with this forum... we go down that path (which has been taken many times already) and the thread will get locked.... and we'll have to start another thread to talk about the issues it was started for instead.

I think many people here have valid points. Daz seems to be drifting away. Daz models have more flexibiltiy and support. Poser people are harder to customize. Poser and Daz are semi-dependent of each other. Poser for the great software Daz for the people.

So what we need to do is support poser. everybody needs to make a prop, morph, texture, or hair for one of the poser people. If everyone here did that the poser people would have as much stuff as the daz ones do. and maybe they could have a variety of cloths, not just bras and thongs.

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Quote - I think many people here have valid points. Daz seems to be drifting away. Daz models have more flexibiltiy and support. Poser people are harder to customize. Poser and Daz are semi-dependent of each other. Poser for the great software Daz for the people.

So what we need to do is support poser. everybody needs to make a prop, morph, texture, or hair for one of the poser people. If everyone here did that the poser people would have as much stuff as the daz ones do. and maybe they could have a variety of cloths, not just bras and thongs.

I think we've made the point tho that Poser's figures aren't what ppl want. So making things for them will make no difference other than the fact that there will be tons more stuff for figures that almost no one uses ;o). Of course, make them for those that do use those figures. They need the stuff too..lol.

Laurie

Ali created a female character named Angela I have never used her but she doesn't look half bad in my opinion. I just feel that if Daz no longer created content for Poser there would be people like Anton and Ali and a few other that would step into the breech.

In many ways I agree with PhilC it seems to me that Poser and D/S style art is not about learning the programs and the workings. Instead for many it's wanting a make art button. Just load figures, props and scenes, hit the button and voilá tout c'est bon! I have made the pretty picture.

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I have to add myself to the ranks of I bought because of the content, not the figures... Personally, you can find fault with every figure. Some do somethings better than others, some have more content than others, but now with Wardrobe Wizard and other features, it really does not matter who the clothing is for or what you need the figure to do. It would be nice to see more content creators creating high quality textures and other content for the Poser Figures, but until users actually buy the Content that is being made, I suspect that will continue to be a slow progress.

In all honesty, it seems that most newer Poser users use the figures that come with Poser.

I have V4 and the others, but I only use them to assist users and test issues. I used V3 a lot up until the last year or so... since then my favorite became Miki 2, and I find myself using Alyson and Ryan when I need a Human Figure more and more, now that I have created some Normal Maps and Morphs for them.

ratscloset
aka John

Angela, Eva, and that Antonia figure is quite attractive even textureless.

Nursoda, 3DU, and Littlefox would save us in any case.

Maybe third parties could work on rigging fixes (you can inject those right? Capses seems to do that) or more expression morphs for the figures deemed imperfect such as my girl Sydney.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

I will not buy another new figure from Daz! Scaling problems started with the Freak 4, then the Toddler, then Steph....I did buy the kids but that's it. I'll use what I have which is about 65 gigs for all my runtimes - I've been collecting since '99.

Those were mostly fixed in Poser 8 and Poser Pro 2010

Quote - Angela, Eva, and that Antonia figure is quite attractive even textureless.

Nursoda, 3DU, and Littlefox would save us in any case.

Maybe third parties could work on rigging fixes (you can inject those right? Capses seems to do that) or more expression morphs for the figures deemed imperfect such as my girl Sydney.

Eva does not count not enough people have her... ok not enough people have that version of Jessi (or whatever figure eva was made from) so you can't really count that one.

Antonia on the other hand that is a nice figure for a free figure that has been worked on for what years now? I have not messed with her that much but what i have seen i like for the most part.

Cant go wrong with rigging done by Phantom 3D.

Quote - Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees something like this coming in the not too distant future, I've mentioned it before & been told to pull my head out of where they suggest I've got it firmly placed.

The Daz Gen4 Figure is nice, but it's not great & yes I said figure not figures, it's a single template that they've morphed to different shapes, a bit like the Emperors new clothes in my opinion, they're selling thin air & people are falling over themselves in their haste to beg for more.

I'm not too sure if there is a plan B though, I'm no modeller & my texturing skills are next to useless. Lets hope someone who can do it actually does it & we can get back to normal even without Daz & it's naked Emperor.

AH-fucking-HEM!

I first mentioned this way, way back when Penguinisto was working for DAZ and was called names for mentioning it and accused of scaremongering.

It gives me no satisfaction to say "I told you so" but I did. The posts will be in the forum archives somewhere but I'm buggered if I can be bothered to look for them.

Anyhow, I think the situation may well be taken care of by the likes of Antonia and other, future, "independent" figures.

Either that or, Smith Micro will get a modelling team who knows what humans actually look like, and how they are proportioned. Or not.

In any case, who really cares? It's not like the existing models wear out, is it?

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You can't really blame the commercial vendors for doing what will make a profit - just because you do content for use with a figure nobody uses doesn't make it easier to do. You can do X amount of work and make Y money, and X will be pretty much the same regardless of the target figure but Y will depend heavily on what the target figure is. Tell the buyers to buy different stuff, that's really what drives it - mass numbers of people breaking down the door and waving money for "yet another bra for V4".

My Freebies

thanks PJZ... I knew someone would mention money .... thats $5 I just made :)

but seriously. yup. the vendors will make what sells...at that time.

but thats not the point of the thread. read back to the start. the point is, what happens when Daz and SM diverge to the point we can't use Daz figures.

"...*even a step backward from the version 3 figures and they're, frankly, a nightmare to use..."

*Needed to be said twice :)

Quote - thanks PJZ... I knew someone would mention money .... thats $5 I just made :)

Congratulations on making 5 bucks off of SOMETHING COMPLETELY OBVIOUS. I mean don't look at all the billion animated flashing ad banners at top right and bottom of every page here, this is just about hobbyists and charity.

and I don't particularly care if you don't think it's the point of the thread or not, to a very large degree it is and will go on being that.

My Freebies

so if it's ***SOMETHING COMPLETELY OBVIOUS

***why did you have to post it like you keep doing many times before? ***

Wouldn't they be cutting off a very strong source of income by making future figures non Poser compatible though...?

Because it hadn't been said, and y'know, I'm not an asshole for pointing out this very basic fact.

My Freebies

Quote - Wouldn't they be cutting off a very strong source of income by making future figures non Poser compatible though...?

exactly

My Freebies

Money is vaguely involved, it's true. Daz are the big dogz of the Poser figure market. The main thrust of my point was though that should they dry up tomorrow, there's nothing currently that will fill the gap. More precisely, there are too many others to fill the gap...lol. I realize that most vendors like to specialize in one particular popular figure (which this month is V4) but without advancements in Victoria, the Marketplace may as well close up shop. Even now it's an endless sea of clone textures, morphs, and clothing. Will the next big figure be a figure we chose? Or a figure vendors decide to support? It's a chicken and egg question, I know, but warrants some thought. And for those that think they already have enough? While that might do you for a period of time, are you going to be using V4 10 years from now? When the figure looks dated, no longer is supported and, more likely, won't even work in a future version of Poser? ;o) She barely works in the current version of Poser...lmao.

Laurie

I dunno, it seems like the management between EF/Smith Micro and DAZ have shaken hands and agreed to go a bit closer together with Poser 8, SM finally got the damn conforming scale stuff working pretty well. Maybe they decided to do that on their own but it was a huge favor to DAZ and will end up making a ton of money for both parties (e.g. the only reason I ever bought Poser when I got started was to fool with the DAZ figures, and I didn't like DAZ|Studio).

My Freebies

Thought provoking topic.

When I started Poser 3, DAZ had not spilt off from Zygote yet. The most beautiful figures around were resculpted Posettes from brilliant Japanese artists who hand painted textures. So as far as I can see, Poser has always been reliantly on third party providers.

Are we addicted to Poser or addicted to Poser content? And how many times have people posted "it'd be great if Poser had feature X" or "why does Poser keep crashing" or "how can I get my scene into a different renderer" (no disrespect to the Material Room / Firefly). If there is no DAZ support for Poser, Poser users will still be reliant on a different 3rd party provider and a thread similar to this is posted 15 years from now.

But for all of Poser's shortcomings, the main reason why people are hesitant to move to another program, purchase price notwithstanding is ironically the amount we've invested into our Runtimes and how time consuming it would be to convert it all to a new "native" format.

So I started soul searching. As an animator, how can make this better / work easier / more efficiently for what I'm doing? I started by throwing away all the characters in my Runtime and built my own but kept the props and sets if I need something in a pinch. My characters are smooth, low-poly, they animate and render quickly.

It took a lot of dedication, time, and frustration to develop them. Turns out that DAZ figures were my biggest inspiration. The Unimesh concept is genius; my characters also share textures between them but not morphs since each individual is hand scuplted from a male or female base figure. And I learned alot about human anatomy in the process. It took a while to get used to their "realistic" proportions rather that DAZ's "ideal" proportions but that only makes me love them more.

My solution doesn't work for everyone. I like to think of it as driving a car with an alternative energy source, independent from a reliance on a finite amount of foreign oil.

Quote - What if, in the event that there were NO MORE Daz figures, would the Poser community do?

I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, but here is my take on the original question.

Personally I doubt that DAZ could afford to forsake a large portion of their market by abandoning compatibility with Poser any time in the near future. But if they did, I suspect that market forces would mean that someone would step in to fill the gap. At the moment is is hard for a potential competitor to get foot hold because DAZ dominates the scene, but if DAZ left the field of battle, it would leave a very attractive evolutionary niche open to new species. That might be a very good thing for the Poser community. After all DAZ are not very good at making 3D figures. It took them 4 versions of Victoria to come up with something that was significantly better than Posette. Where the DAZ figures have excelled, is not in the design and function of the figures themselves, but rather in the amount of support they have managed to engender in terms of add-on content available for their figures. Take away the textures and clothing, and the figures by themselves are not that impressive.

If T-Rex disappears, will the jungle remain bereft of a top predator, or will the mouse of today evolve into the tiger of the future?

I'd really like to use the Smith-Micro ( formerly E-Frontier) figures more often, but the wardrobe and character choices in the marketplace are far less than for the DAZ3D figures.

If the day should come when I find DAZ3D figures less compatible with Poser than ever before, I'd simply have to choose Poser figures. Or use the Daz3D figures strictly inside DAZ Studio.... ( For realistic East Asian characters, I much prefer using the Koji and Miki figures.)

Eternal Hobbyist

I think that DAZ will make future figures for DazStudio and improve these figures and DazStudio with new and better features.
But, as Poser is still a great commercial market, it would be wise for Daz to release two versions, one classic version for Poser and one with improved features for DazStudio.
The geometry,at least for many ling years, will continue to be triangles and quads, body parts can be added or removed, the same with materials and texture mapping will continue to be texture mapping, so all will remain the same for Poser, Daz or any other app.
What can change are the joint deformers and parameters and also the magnets and here the compatibilty will go away.
Probably Daz figures for DazStudio will bend better than Daz figures for Poser.
And if you want to use both Poser and DazStudio you will need to purchase both versions probably with some discount.

Stupidity also evolves!

Do you guys really think the DAZ Gen 4 figures are ugly or are you frustrated because they're more difficult than they ought to be to use in Poser? This is just my personal opinion, and I'm not representing DAZ as so many like to assume whenever I post here now, but I honestly don't know how anyone can think V4 and M4 are not vastly superior to any other available figure. There are fixes for the armpits, you only have to put in the morphs you need, there are a ton of morphs as well as additional ones to change the face and body shape, the clothing support is obviously better than any other figure...aside from Poser-specific issues, I don't see why you feel the need for alternate figures that will almost certainly receive little support and likely not be as flexible as the DAZ ones.

I think we've reached a point where the figures and accessories are more important than the program. If Poser disappeared and DAZ stopped supporting Studio, we'd take our favorite figures to Vue, Carrara, Bryce, or even Blender. If the DAZ figures went away and we were left with a half dozen figures of wildly varying quality and a handful of clothing items, I don't think we'd see much casual 3D art.

SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

The body proportions and general appearance are pretty wacko, but I don't really have any technical problems any more in P8 SR3 now that scaling is sorted. I really wish the default shape and proprtions was closer to actual normal human beings and not what is, but on the other hand it's money-driven and DAZ makes what sells the most into the default. As I'm sure you realize from your texturing experience, having a starting point that is so far away from normal means that when you take the character to a more normal proportion and shape, basically all your textures and conformers are going to get mashed.

My Freebies

It would really have to be a joint effort and have sustained support for the character to really take hold and get wide use.

When DAZ releases a new character, they already have numerous poses, clothes, skins, etc ready for them at the same time.

There are independent models out now....

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=79422&vendor=28245

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=odegami

But it usually falls on the character's creator to make most of the content. Whereas Vicki4 has a constant stream of content released daily.

The totally free original characters usually have a beta lifespan and newbie users have to know which version works with which morphs and which new uv map, etc... a lot of newbies may have a hard time using free original content that's always in a kind of beta status.

The great minds of this community could do it though.

Quote - In many ways I agree with PhilC it seems to me that Poser and D/S style art is not about learning the programs and the workings. Instead for many it's wanting a make art button. Just load figures, props and scenes, hit the button and voilá tout c'est bon! I have made the pretty picture.

I think that the whole "people just want a make art button" argument kind of undermines the amount of work that many people do put into their work, but that's essentially what Poser and Daz Studio are supposed to do, simple to use 3d figure posing programs. Sure if you delve deeper into the programs you can do more, and if you're really clever like BB or Ockham and can write scripts etc you can create even more wonderous things. But lets face it, if you wanted the type of program that is not "make art", then you would be using a proper 3d modelling program, building and texturing every minute element from scratch. Most people don't have the time or the patience to think or work like that. Why do you think there are so many websites and companies providing pre-built 3d content. Sure you might want to change a few things on it, but say you needed to use a model of the space shuttle, why would you build one from scratch if there was an existing one that would do the job just as well? People that tend to build these things from scratch enjoy the modelmaking process, but possibly not the final art/render side as much, Poser and Daz Studio are for people who prefer the latter.

I used to develop my own films and photographic prints, I enjoyed it, but the truth is that now I use a digital camera, it's less to worry about. I can spend more time thinking about my composition etc and then correct any mistakes without having to start again from scratch. I can be more creative. I can save time, and therefore money.

Daz Studio 4.8 and 4.9beta, Blender 2.78, Sketchup, Poser Pro 2014 Game Dev SR5 on Windows 8 Pro x64. Poser Display Units are inches

Quote - Do you guys really think the DAZ Gen 4 figures are ugly or are you frustrated because they're more difficult than they ought to be to use in Poser?

Ugly and, in many (most?) cases, very badly proportioned.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Maybe there are not so popular figures for Poser because there is not enough Poser market to make figures for? And there can only be one market standard as far as 3D figure clothes, hair, poses go. Who is catering more to that 3D figure market? DAZ or SM?

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

heres a silly responce to the whole "what if daz stops supporting poser thing".... What if renderosity itself creates its own figure sets ?

With the amount of profit that renderosity makes surely it could afford to hire some 3d modelers and artists with the skills to create a proffessional 3D person(s) series... If they made decent easy to work with models and had the support of most of the popular poser vendors renderosity could have a real money maker....

Just undercut daz and have the bulk of the vendors releasing renderosity 3d figure exclusives... hell renderosity could even give vendors nice "exclusive" profit shares just for the initial support, with the hint of higher profits im sure most vendors would fall in line... with the size of renderosity and the support of the community im sure it could easily do something like this...

Quote - Wouldn't they be cutting off a very strong source of income by making future figures non Poser compatible though...?

Yes & No, Right now there are probably more vocal Poser users around than vocal DS users, but with recent developments like Reality & LuxRender I can see quite a few of them being tempted to switch permanently, heck I've reinstalled DS myself even though I can't get my head round it.

It's long overdue for some of us to learn how to model & texture properly, everything we could ever need to do that is there free or very cheap, are we going to step up to the challenge?

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Quote - It's long overdue for some of us to learn how to model & texture properly, everything we could ever need to do that is there free or very cheap, are we going to step up to the challenge?

It's "free" to make your own content in terms of money only. I don't want to discourage you, but I don't think you have any idea how hard and labor-intensive this stuff is to make, and truly brainbusting to make it work WELL. There's a good reason that people are willing to pay for content, even mediocre content - the stuff is just brutally hard to learn and execute and it takes a lot of time. And I'm saying this as someone who has learned it and does execute it. I'm not trying to scare people off from it, I try to be as helpful as possible for people who want to figure out how to model and rig Poser content.

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Quote - Just undercut daz and have the bulk of the vendors releasing renderosity 3d figure exclusives... hell renderosity could even give vendors nice "exclusive" profit shares just for the initial support...

Worth noting that Renderosity already does this with Poser content in general - look at prices for different categories of items here vs. at DAZ. It certainly isn't bothering DAZ's business too much, and they don't even charge money for the base figures. Again, not trying to be discouraging, but, well, DAZ kinda has their finger on the majority's pulse (as sad as that is).

My Freebies

Stepping in to get my head chopped off...

I like the Victoria4 figure. Oh, she took some getting used to, but what I find attractive is her versatility. By which I mean what's been made for her, both in the freebie arena and commercially. There's just so MUCH... I have gigabytes of stuff to play with... stuff I haven't even unzipped. Like BasicWiz, I reckon I'm set until the Greens are voted in here in Oz.

However, as I said before, V4 did require some getting used to. One can get used to just about anything, I guess: a toothache, cold weather, being pregnant, Blender... well, maybe not Blender :lol: but anyway, with all her vagaries, I got used to V4 simply because there's so much that's been made for her and what one can do for her and with her.

Now, most of my poses with her are of her in some standing position. She doesn't bend right - not her arms, not her legs: Antonia wins in that ability challenge, hands (and feet) down. Terai Yuki 2 wins in the charm department. But like when I bring out Miki 2 to play, I keep running into limitations. Same with Terai.

So, here's the thing... (see, I say that too, Laurie :biggrin:) I'm going to guess - haven't really had a close look but people seem to think this is significant - that the overwhelming problem with non-Daz figures are the lack of morphs and dials available. What's involved in adding some to say Alison (sp?) or some of the other Poser-natives? I'm talking heaps more facial stuff, morphs galore. More dials than V. What indeed is involved in making them?

Someone makes those - and also for older figures... that would suddenly breathe a lot more life into them. Who the heck needs V4 then? Wee doan need no steenkeeng V4!

Tedious to make, you say? Teach ME and I'll make them. Or we could make this a community effort... you Laurie do the mouth area, you Paul do the brows, I'll muck around with cheeks, let Fred there clean up the ears, and Glenda... ummmmmmmmmm, you can do textures, Glenda... you're GOOD at that!

Whaddaya say?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - It's "free" to make your own content in terms of money only. I don't want to discourage you, but I don't think you have any idea how hard and labor-intensive this stuff is to make, and truly brainbusting to make it work WELL. There's a good reason that people are willing to pay for content, even mediocre content - the stuff is just brutally hard to learn and execute and it takes a lot of time. And I'm saying this as someone who has learned it and does execute it. I'm not trying to scare people off from it, I try to be as helpful as possible for people who want to figure out how to model and rig Poser content.

I had one freebie to my old name for Poser 4, nothing special but it took weeks & weeks to get right, laziness got the better of me & I quit after that, I think that's part of why we're facing this potential loss of Poser.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Well, I haven't bought any content in a long, long time. :laugh:

I think I agree with what lesbentley said: if DAZ stopped making Poser-compatible figures, someone else would fill the niche.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

Quote - heres a silly responce to the whole "what if daz stops supporting poser thing".... What if renderosity itself creates its own figure sets ?

RENDA 2

I like this though, commission or buy a figure (Angela e.g.) and pump money into having clothes and stuff made even if they don't sell much at first. Eventually you'd have well-rounded figure support and some people would make her their staple

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Hmmm...It would need a team.

Quote - Wouldn't they be cutting off a very strong source of income by making future figures non Poser compatible though...?

Sorry but that is just Wishful thinking IMHO.
I see ZERO evidence that DAZ is still so Financially dependent on poser users
that ending poser support with be "financial suicide"

Spend some time over at the DAZ Forums.

I have never seen a group of people so
hopelessy addicted to Compulsive buying of content.
The DAZ business model has never been to keep
poser users IMHO and recent technical developments make it obvious to me at least that a Complete abandonment of poser support
is inevitable.

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as long as SM wants to keep supporting DAZ figures and DAZ doesn't try to implement crucial things that could never be made to work in Poser, crisis should be avoided

If V5 has major problems in Poser I'll change my mind.

I wouldn't judge DAZ's market based on the forums... plenty of those people are Poser users for one thing...

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Quote - Sorry but that is just Wishful thinking IMHO.
I see ZERO evidence that DAZ is still so Financially dependent on poser users
that ending poser support with be "financial suicide"

I don't think they're exactly financially dependent, but they'd be throwing away a pretty massive portion of their profits if they diverged from Poser completely. I think they could afford to do this but they'd be morons if they did, and as wonky as DAZ are about some things, "Let's make less money" doesn't seem to be one of their core business objectives.

My Freebies

"I dunno, it seems like the management between EF/Smith Micro and DAZ have shaken hands and agreed to go a bit closer together with Poser 8, SM finally got the damn conforming scale stuff working pretty well. Maybe they decided to do that on their own but it was a huge favor to DAZ and will end up making a ton of money for both parties"

It was done through mutual collaboration.

Ok, here's a paradox. Some people don't seem to be too fond of the DAZ figures. On the other hand, they don't appear to be crazy about the Poser figures either. So what exactly do they want? And before anyone answers, I can guarantee that if you ask 100 people that question, you'll get maybe 10 of them who actually agree on a similar figure type.

I'm all for 3rd-party development, but you also have to ask yourself why the DAZ figures get so much support. Obviously, it's partly because they're now an established 'brand', but even more so is the fact that they're FREE. That's the clincher. And yes, you can say it's an evil plot to sell morph packs or whatever. Doesn't matter a hoot. It works. IIRC, V4 was downloaded 10,000 times in the first couple of weeks. Of course vendors support her. Wouldn't you be looking to sell to 10,000 people?

Before any 3rd-party figure can compete, it would need to be free, heavily promoted and supported, and of course, better than anything else around. Given that figure modelling is now done by large teams of people, to say nothing of using expensive body scans for textures, I think the likelihood of any one person, or small group of people matching those resources is slim - not impossible, but slim.

I also have to agree with what DarrenUK said about the various approaches to 3d art and content. There's a certain vein of snobbery in a lot of people who make comments along the lines of "Oh, that's just click and render art", etc. In fact, an often-expressed train of thought here in these forums is that the entire DAZ community are just a bunch of mindless morons who shell out good money for the same products over and over again.

What these people seem to forget is that this is a hobby - You know? Something that people do for fun? Many people have no interest in getting into the guts of software, editing and hacking the files, spending hours making complex node setups. They're quite happy to use pre-made content, apply the MATs that come with it, and get a nice render. What exactly is the problem with that? If they're happy doing it, that's ok. No need to refer to them as 'sheep' and other derogatory names. Let them get on with it, and you do whatever you want to do.

And for the record, I've been at this for over 12 years, and I'm quite happy to spend long hours editing files, if necessary. I just don't expect everyone to do the same.

mac

Quote - It was done through mutual collaboration.

That doesn't surprise me and I think it was a smart move, glad to hear that.

My Freebies

I believe I can answer the OP since I use Carrara pretty much exclusively.

If DAZ stops supporting Poser (I think it's a stretch to think there's much concern about Poser and it's users in the DAZ organization anyway, but that's a different topic), then Poser users will do what I have always done - work around the minor annoyances created by using objects intended for another software package.

I would say that 95% of my content is Poser or DAZ centric. This means things don't always import properly, shaders are nearly always off and morphs frequently don't work. I won't give up the advantages of Carrara, so I just bring the content in any way I can, fix it, and save it in Carrara for future use.

This means clearing up bumps, highlights and properly assigning textures in shaders.
It involves opening items with external morphs in Poser, turning off external morphs, and saving them again so the bloody morphs work.
On the plus side, in Carrara it is very easy to make adjustments and new morphs for the mesh on the fly and then save them in the modified object file.

I suspect that is what Poser users will do if DAZ continues to move away from Poser interoperability.

On a final thought, this will create opportunities for "fixes" like the simple armpit correction.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device. Beige horizontal case. I don't display my unit.

When CDs replaced vinyl, people followed the content. The comparison is far from perfect for a number of reasons. CDs offered greater convenience and, to most non-audiophiles, superior sound quality. Unlike Poser, People did not have many hours invested in learning how to use a turntable and there was only a minor learning curve to the new technology. Still, it is not unreasonable to expect that a number of users, especially the newer ones might simply follow the new content and move to DS. The more that you believe the market is content driven, the more likely that is to be true.

It is in the interests of both companies to cooperate. In the past Daz has not has a long term stable partner to work with, only a succession of different ones – perhaps one of the reasons Studio was created to begin with. Assuming Smith Micro is in it for the long haul, cooperation seems like the smart thing. The balance of power has shifted though. Daz is in a position (with DS) where they can at least think about going it alone. They may feel more comfortable making changes and leaving SM to adopt them or be shut out. SM could restore the balance by creating figures that represented a more credible defensive threat.

If a war breaks out, who has the upper hand? SM has application lock in with existing users who are reluctant to switch to DS because of the interface or the capabilities. Daz has content lock in because an awful lot of people like their figures and the abundance of accessories. What happens in Laurie’s scenario, if Daz pulls the trigger?

People are talking about someone stepping in to fill the vacuum. I’m afraid it might be more like the Balkans after the fall for the former Soviet Union, or Iraq after the fall of Saddam, at least in the short term. There is little if any history that I see of a single independent figure achieving critical mass. Maya Doll was quite popular but even at her peak only a small fraction of people probably used her. Renderosity creating a figure? Maybe, it didn’t work for Renderotica with Dina but Renderosity is a lot bigger. To match Daz, you need a family of figures, whether based on a single mesh or not. You need massive support, which means content creators either have to abandon the Daz market or try to produce quality products for both. You need a large number of people willing to buy in early on, including a lot of ‘click art’ people because the number of independent hacker/tweakers isn’t likely to get it done revenue wise IMO. Most importantly, you need central coordination. When the bomb falls, it’s gonna be the wild west. Maybe it can be Renderosity. It should be SM, but it has to be somebody who will wrangle all the things that Daz does now, research, conceptualize, design, create, market, coordinate independent content etc. IF that can be done, then it needs to be tested/proven/done now, not when the hammer falls. I know there’s nothing like getting shot at to focus the attention, but we have two excellent figures in Apollo and Antonia. If the community can’t get them above the traditional status of niche figures then I’m not optimistic about the results come doomsday.

Of course, I’m assuming that something on the order of the Daz business model would be required, not only to retain existing users, but more importantly attract new ones. Could Poser retain its popularity with something resembling the current 3rd party figure market? Not from your personal POV and what you could or would do but from the perspective of all users or as a SM stockholder.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - When CDs replaced vinyl, people followed the content. The comparison is far from perfect for a number of reasons. CDs offered greater convenience and, to most non-audiophiles, superior sound quality. Unlike Poser, People did not have many hours invested in learning how to use a turntable and there was only a minor learning curve to the new technology. Still, it is not unreasonable to expect that a number of users, especially the newer ones might simply follow the new content and move to DS. The more that you believe the market is content driven, the more likely that is to be true.

It is in the interests of both companies to cooperate. In the past Daz has not has a long term stable partner to work with, only a succession of different ones – perhaps one of the reasons Studio was created to begin with. Assuming Smith Micro is in it for the long haul, cooperation seems like the smart thing. The balance of power has shifted though. Daz is in a position (with DS) where they can at least think about going it alone. They may feel more comfortable making changes and leaving SM to adopt them or be shut out. SM could restore the balance by creating figures that represented a more credible defensive threat.

If a war breaks out, who has the upper hand? SM has application lock in with existing users who are reluctant to switch to DS because of the interface or the capabilities. Daz has content lock in because an awful lot of people like their figures and the abundance of accessories. What happens in Laurie’s scenario, if Daz pulls the trigger?

People are talking about someone stepping in to fill the vacuum. I’m afraid it might be more like the Balkans after the fall for the former Soviet Union, or Iraq after the fall of Saddam, at least in the short term. There is little if any history that I see of a single independent figure achieving critical mass. Maya Doll was quite popular but even at her peak only a small fraction of people probably used her. Renderosity creating a figure? Maybe, it didn’t work for Renderotica with Dina but Renderosity is a lot bigger. To match Daz, you need a family of figures, whether based on a single mesh or not. You need massive support, which means content creators either have to abandon the Daz market or try to produce quality products for both. You need a large number of people willing to buy in early on, including a lot of ‘click art’ people because the number of independent hacker/tweakers isn’t likely to get it done revenue wise IMO. Most importantly, you need central coordination. When the bomb falls, it’s gonna be the wild west. Maybe it can be Renderosity. It should be SM, but it has to be somebody who will wrangle all the things that Daz does now, research, conceptualize, design, create, market, coordinate independent content etc. IF that can be done, then it needs to be tested/proven/done now, not when the hammer falls. I know there’s nothing like getting shot at to focus the attention, but we have two excellent figures in Apollo and Antonia. If the community can’t get them above the traditional status of niche figures then I’m not optimistic about the results come doomsday.

Of course, I’m assuming that something on the order of the Daz business model would be required, not only to retain existing users, but more importantly attract new ones. Could Poser retain its popularity with something resembling the current 3rd party figure market? Not from your personal POV and what you could or would do but from the perspective of all users or as a SM stockholder.

My thoughts EXACTLY. You said it better tho ;o).

Laurie

"Could Poser retain its popularity with something resembling the current 3rd party figure market?"

Simple question: what makes those Daz characters popular amongst those who do like them?
a. Daz's marketing scheme? give 'em out free, and charge little for supporting stuff like morphs and like that?
b. the broad range of morphs included in the package? would it be hard to provide/develop something similar for Poser-natives or 3d-party figures?
c. the fact that they are currently Poser compatible and reasonably easy to use (well-supported)?

You only have to look at dynamic cloth - which I am currently struggling with, and I mean struggling! - versus conforming cloth for clues how a well-supported figure will gain in popularity over one for which support is sketchy. (I'm reading two tutorials on our tutorials page: one is for Poser 5 claim to be dead easy, but I'm solidly confused right at the get-go with talk about draping ... there is no drape button in my version of Poser ... and the other involves a dress that I need to shell out money for, which I'm not about to do since I'm not all that enchanted with the whole concept yet -- easy-to-use, PAH! plus the tutorial has images where I can't even make up the words on them, since they've been scaled down in size, with resultant loss in detail). In case you've missed it, my enthusiasm for dynamic is shrinking and it wasn't all that great to begin with.

I warrant that this is the experience of most Poser users and that is why dynamics haven't caught on with the bulk of Poser users... only those who battle on finally have the penny drop, and then they all claim it's dead easy.

Which means I'm an idiot, because I'm just not getting it.

Victoria 4 is easy to use. She may not be accurate but jeez-louise, she really is point-and-click.

Okay, back to my struggling. If I can get my head around nodes and maths, this should eventually COME.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Robyn, dynamic cloth does take some getting used to. I won't insult your intelligence by saying it's dead easy, but it does get "easier" ;o). It just takes some major fiddling to get used to it...hehe. If you need any help, just shoot me a sitemail.

Laurie

i haven't gotten all the use i could have out of V3, let alone V4. i mean, texture sales, that would be an issue. that said, V4's been out a long time, and the most popular textures for her right now are very conventional. i think quality work for the latest version of Vicky that worked in Poser would remain popular.

Antonia seems pretty high quality and has pretty good support for a figure that isn't even to a 1.0 version yet.

i think it would be a case of adapt or die for the community. and i can't say which way it would go. but if the community died off, then death would be very slow.

i suspect that even if no new versions or figures came out for Poser, there would still be a pretty significant community and market for some time to come. i mean, i keep seeing people complain about losing the P4 renderer. the main reason we get new figures is all the cool new stuff we want to buy that works on them. right now there are nearly 6000 people on this site, and most of numbers seem to be from the Poser community. the Vue forum is more active than the DS forum. Poser users stay pretty well behind the leading edge of Poser use or even just Poser versions. the bulk of the market runs on users who buy on impulse and want to spend no longer than an hour waiting for a render. look at the top viewed, rated, and favorited images. you'll see lots of incredible technique, but most of it is 2D, not 3D.

i think anyone who wanted to try to make money off the exceedingly disgruntled Poser users would have several years to do so. the more entitled, demanding, and emotionally volatile aspect of the community would actually work in the favor of independent development for once. if DAZ completely dropped Poser support, or even made flagship figures that didn't work very well in Poser, it would open a major door to independent developers. i mean, can you imagine if there were no DAZ males for Poser when Apollo came out? Anton said he sold over 1000 copies during his release sale. considering how many independent figures i already have in my runtime, my guess is people would be scrambling to fill that niche.

i think we'd have a chance at breaking our DAZ dependence and seeing the emergence of stronger independent developers. this community isn't big on change as drastic as switching to DS, and even more importantly, mostly doesn't need it anything Poser 6 can't do right now. if tomorrow all versions of Poser were updated to use Vray as a renderer, people would still render without shadows.

Interesting hypothetical from the original post... what will Poser users, who currently use DAZ content*, do if they can't/won't use DS and/or DAZ content anymore. Hmm, most 3d assets are importable and useable in most 3d apps already. Anyway, it was an interesting question ;)

(*otherwise it wouldn't be relevant)

What's also interesting to me is this excerpt:

Quote - LaurieA wrote: Do we all become traitors and drop Poser for DS? Some of us will, I'm sure, but what about those that love Poser and don't care to jump ship?

Why is there a stigma of "traitor" if you use DS too/instead? Why must there be an "us vs them" ? They're just tools. shrug

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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part

Quote - When CDs replaced vinyl, people followed the content.

Nothing was better than the 78 RPM discs with their characteristic frequency modulation and pop, tick and crack special effects. It were also ecological because didn't use any kind of plastic and no need for BP.

Sadly things change and more dramatics changes will come. The next generation of figures will be Universal figures, in other words only two figures that will fulfill all the needs: the Mao male figure and the Chung-Li female figure (no gays are allowed). For what do you need different figures if all look the same?

Stupidity also evolves!

Or something could happen to either app like what happened with Bryce while Corel owned it. Corel just sat on it and did nothing for a long time. Other 3D terrain programs played catchup during that time. Say SM releases Poser 9 now and no one here can really tell what the reason for getting it is. So they stick with Poser 8 that has the best SR5 or whatever and it just works. Would you say SM is just sitting on Poser then and allowing other 3D figure apps to catchup and/or pass it by?

I'm thinking that some companies let their apps slip behind the curve. Then it is too late for them to be on top again.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Quote - What's also interesting to me is this excerpt:

Quote - LaurieA wrote: Do we all become traitors and drop Poser for DS? Some of us will, I'm sure, but what about those that love Poser and don't care to jump ship?

Why is there a stigma of "traitor" if you use DS too/instead? Why must there be an "us vs them" ? They're just tools. shrug

Figure of speech. That's all I meant by it. Pehaps the wrong one, but oh well.

Laurie

This is the Poser forum, afterall.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

RobynsVeil, you can't drape in place in Poser. You gotta animate that.

It's not the tool used, it's the tool using it

Well your animation doesn't actually have to contain any change in pose, so you can still do it (unless I don't understand what you mean).

My Freebies

I'd tell you what I'd do, Laurie...

I'd keep using Krystal and Terai Yuki 2. :D

And keep struggling to make Miki look like a feasible model to use.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Hmm... Interesting read.

If there was a Figure Apocalypse:

I think "some" people would move over to DAZ but I think for the most part, people would still be in the "camp" that they are in right now: "Only use DS", "Only use Poser" and "Use a Bit of Both" (which this camp still would have folks that strongly lean towards Poser or DS) I think folks are inherently stubborn and if they haven't moved already, this will not make them move. Program features or drawbacks are more likely to make someone go elsewhere.

I do strongly feel that somehow the void would be filled. A figure might be a strong reason to use an app but I don't at all think that it's the prime reason. At the same time that folks gravitate towards a single figure, they also gravitate towards variety and flexibility.

I agree with a flagship figure (base) will need to be free to have a chance. This is the bar that we are looking at. You can't go lower than FREE unless you include more for free than the other guy.

You would need to match or excel the flexibility and basic feature set of the leading figure, including bending ability and user friendliness.

You must have core support from the get-go. You might not need everything all at once, up front, but you would need to have a core group of individuals, preferrably with some big names in there (not essential as all big names were once little names), who maybe were in on the design team that will pledge support for the figure.

I would love to see this and if it looked serious, I would be along for the ride.

I think the most important thing is that any flagship figure needs competition. All softwares need competition. I truly believe it makes better programs or figures when those things are on the line.

i think the question of who would make the new figures is kind of moot, though. frankly, i don't find V4 a step forward from V3. i find the content for her a step forward. i find there to be some useful improvements in V4, but honestly most people don't take advantage of them. mainly, the community makes the same sort of art and same sort of products we did with V3. so i don't really see a compelling community need for a better figure than V4. and to me it looks like DAZ has plateaued on their female figures. i mean, cool new stuff, but just as many losses as gains. imho, M4 is way better than M3, but i feel the same way about David.

i've been going through my runtimes recently, and the main improvements have been figure independent. more detailed textures with less artifacts. more texture sets with bump, specular, and displacement. better clothing topology. clothing with more features. none of that needed a new figure. a new figure needed those benefits to make people walk away from hundreds or even thousands of dollars of collected content.

i'd love a much more realistic figure than V4 or M4. i could do tons with it. and i certainly think the market exists for such a figure. i will do my best to support any quality new figures. i totally endorse efforts by any and all to fill the niche if and when DAZ leaves Poser behind (and yeah, i've thought this was coming since DS was announced, too). but all this talk about what a new figure would need to do seems beside the point, because the majority of Poser users don't need as much as they have now.

and i think Netherworks is right about people not changing their minds. if the traffic here were getting lower, or the DS forum was more popular, i'd say that the Poser community couldn't survive on its own. but as it is, better than V4 is dessert. i mean, we all love dessert, but we don't need it to survive. if V5 doesn't support Poser well, i suspect about as many people will switch to DS as totally boycott DAZ in a fit of pique. and all those Poser users will use V4 until something better comes along. breaking the figure upgrade cycle, but not the content upgrade cycle. i very much doubt that no one will make new V4 textures if there's still a big market for them. same goes for clothes, props, etc.

content drives the market, but the figures aren't the primary content. they're just part of the platform.

not only free but a low, med, and high poly count version to boot. nothin' fancy just basic rigging too.

I migrated from V3 to V4 because V4 does such great face morphs (and expressions). I truly don't think I gave V3 enough of a chance, though. And really, I don't think the last word has been said about either of these figures. True, V4 doesn't bend well... but who's to say someone isn't going to come up with a fix for that. Or a fix for some other aspects of V4 that will make her more of the figure she could have been.

I so wish I could sort out how expression/facial and other morphs are made so I could make them not only for V4 but also for TY2 and Miki2 (she needs a lot of de-Miki-ising) and some of the really awesome figures like Antonia. Now that I have PP2010, might have another go at doing morphs in Blender and importing, now that I'm getting a handle on the Cloth Room.

We already have a lot of figures... most have not had their potential totally exhausted.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - So what we need to do is support poser. everybody needs to make a prop, morph, texture, or hair for one of the poser people. If everyone here did that the poser people would have as much stuff as the daz ones do. and maybe they could have a variety of cloths, not just bras and thongs.

I still DO make things for the Poser people. I just no longer release them. It didn't pay as a merchant and I got no joy giving them away for free because I never saw them used.

Quote - It is not the fact that it is a name, it is the fact that they bend in the middle of the forearm ;) I like parts of the G2 series (mainly the heads) but anything below the neck has a lot of issues if you want to bend them.

And those issues can be dealt with if you learn to use the new capsule falloff zones in Poser 8 and Poser Pro 2010. I still prefer the Poser content to that of DAZ because it seems easier to work with and learn from "for me".

Quote - and I find myself using Alyson and Ryan when I need a Human Figure more and more, now that I have created some Normal Maps and Morphs for them.

I'd love to know how to make those Normal Maps!

Quote -
In any case, who really cares? It's not like the existing models wear out, is it?

And with over 120Gigs of content I can live with that!

Quote - what happens when Daz and SM diverge to the point we can't use Daz figures.

For those of us not driven to buy the next pair of panties, nothing really happens. We just keep enjoying and using the Gigs and Gigs of content we already have. I know I won't be buying any more DAZ figures any time soon.

Quote - While that might do you for a period of time, are you going to be using V4 10 years from now? When the figure looks dated, no longer is supported and, more likely, won't even work in a future version of Poser? ;o) She barely works in the current version of Poser...lmao.
Laurie

Now that's a bit of over exageration. V3 works just fine in the current versions of Poser and if you are brave enough to play with the new capsule falloff zones you can even make the Mil2 shoulders look decent! Not to mention Poser 2 figures still work just FINE in Poser 8 and Poser pro 2010, even better with the ability to morph and re-rig them inside Poser itself!

Quote - We already have a lot of figures... most have not had their potential totally exhausted.

And that SHOULD be the final word on the subject but it won't be. Those who are driven to buy buy buy will continue to do so until their wallets fry or they burn out on the hobby. Heaven forbid people actually learn to use what they have to it's fullest potential. The rest of us will continue pushing our existing content to the next levels and sharing if we're not driven from the forums by intolerance for our passions as DPHoadley was.

Normal maps and bump maps are functionally the same, just normal maps can't really be done by hand. They don't work the same way but they obtain the same effect. Displacement maps actually do something profoundly different, I think you may want to look into those - you can paint those by hand, it's not really any different from painting a bump map. You can also use a sculpting app that can export displacement maps, like Zbrush can.

Quote - For those of us not driven to buy the next pair of panties, nothing really happens. We just keep enjoying and using the Gigs and Gigs of content we already have. I know I won't be buying any more DAZ figures any time soon.

It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply. We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;) Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

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Quote -
It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply. We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;) Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

Quote - It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply. We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;) Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

I don't think that's harsh at all, however I wasn't really catered to much when I was a consumer either since most of my figures of preference were the ones that came with Poser to begin with. I don't say that out of anger over it though. I discovered that, since I wasn't being catered to, I learned to do a lot of things myself. Frankly, I'm better off for that.

Quote - > Quote -

It's certainly true there are people who stop consuming, e.g. I mostly have also - we have zero influence on what DAZ and other major content makers will do, because since we do not contribute demand, they won't cater to us with supply. We have our opinions but they have no impact on the world ;) Not saying that to be harsh, I'm in the same category with you, just our opinions will be ignored by any sane business.

You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

There is that too...but personally, I'm finding less and less can get me to buy content as I learn to make more on my own.

I've become a non-consumer in recent years as well actually...

Laurie

Quote - You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

How am I an untapped market when I don't buy anything at all? It's not that I have a big urge to consume stuff and there is no stuff that I want to consume - I stopped being a consumer and became a producer. If there is something I want, then I model and rig it (and usually either give it away or sell it). Maybe you didn't mean me in particular though, or content producers in general, I dunno.

And since I'm now a producer, albeit on a small scale, I understand totally why other producers like DAZ will produce what consumers want. They've been selling this stuff for quite a long time now and as wonky as the current crop of figures looks, it pains me to say it - that's what the majority of buyers demand. Why do you think V4 is their default and the one they put out for sale first, and Stephanie is a morph/scale change a few years later? Why do you think they haven't even done a David 4 yet? Low sales for the previous iterations, compared to much higher for the 6'4" DD-breast Barbie. DAZ are not a charity or a religious instituion, and they aren't managed by stupid people. Money is their only real goal, just like any business.

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Quote - I discovered that, since I wasn't being catered to, I learned to do a lot of things myself. Frankly, I'm better off for that.

And so am I!

My Freebies

I'll have to admit: I'm a happy little shopper, enticed by pretty pictures and the promises they contain. Half the time, those promises are broken, but it doesn't seem to stop me. :blink:

What I seem to be buying mostly these days are items I think I can convert to my purposes, via Blender and Obj2Cr2 and Morphing Clothes, and then mucking around with the shaders. I almost never use items as they come out of the box. So I guess the promises really apply only whilst shopping... :lol:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Im a noob to poser, bout 1 year. but been 3d modeling with AutoCAD since about 2000 and Viz since about 2006, so I do know my way around software.

I do notice the level of support for DAZ figures and nearly a nonexistant market for Poser characters, EVEN inside of content paradise. I thought to myself jeez, what kind of business provides more support for a "competing model" than its own, on its own site? Vicky is ok, but honestly I should be able to get at least the same level of support for SydneyG2 on Content Paradise.

I think Poser has a lot of potential, and will be upgrading to pro 2010 in the near future. I think the hottest thing ive seen for SydneyG2 is the Jasmina morphs and ultimate headmorphs from Runtime DNA. Combined with a few tweaks in the faceroom, and some portability to Mudbox, I am pretty much entrenched in the SM Poser camp.

I would like to see more for the G2 figures, i do have victoria 4.2, and she is really versatile, but its pretty obvious that the perception of which model is "better" is really a matter of smart marketing. Daz has the edge for sure, but I like the G2 figures better.

Quote - I think Poser has a lot of potential, and will be upgrading to pro 2010 in the near future. I think the hottest thing ive seen for SydneyG2 is the Jasmina morphs and ultimate headmorphs from Runtime DNA. Combined with a few tweaks in the faceroom, and some portability to Mudbox, I am pretty much entrenched in the SM Poser camp.

I would like to see more for the G2 figures, i do have victoria 4.2, and she is really versatile, but its pretty obvious that the perception of which model is "better" is really a matter of smart marketing. Daz has the edge for sure, but I like the G2 figures better.

Yeah you'll find RDNA has the best overall support for the Poser built in character content when it comes to Morph packages. For clothing for them you still can't beat a good PoserWorld subscription!

Quote - > Quote - You have a strange way of spelling "untapped market".

How am I an untapped market when I don't buy anything at all? It's not that I have a big urge to consume stuff and there is no stuff that I want to consume - I stopped being a consumer and became a producer. If there is something I want, then I model and rig it (and usually either give it away or sell it). Maybe you didn't mean me in particular though, or content producers in general, I dunno.

I meant it more generally. You said something about us not contributing demand simply because we are not buyers. I just don't think that's how marketing departments think. If I were DAZ, I'd be immensely interested in people's reasons to stop buying my products. For all I know, it might be quite easy to change my marketing or extend my product range just a little bit in order to catch their interest again. Also, I'd be very keen on keeping my current customers from running away, as well.

Of course it might not be lucrative for DAZ to cater specifically to people like you, or me, or Laurie. But that's a different story.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

"if we're not driven from the forums by intolerance for our passions as DPHoadley was."

When did this happen? I'll admit to being puzzled by his insistence that Posette was better than any version of Victoria, but I don't remember anyone being intolerant towards him.

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

I suspect it was his political views rather than his opinions on figures that got him booted, but no one will say and we're not allowed to ask.

Quote - I meant it more generally. You said something about us not contributing demand simply because we are not buyers. I just don't think that's how marketing departments think. If I were DAZ, I'd be immensely interested in people's reasons to stop buying my products.

Okay, I understand what you mean. Expanding sales to new buyers is always good, but a whole lot of businesses are very happy to exploit the known very successful market rather than explore unknown markets - and tbh the "semi-normal" Poser market is not exactly unknown (Stephanie types, Miki types, at least among the females), it's just not all that heavily demanded by buyers compared to the aforementioned Barbie - I think that's a bad thing, it's a terrible thing, but so is mass killing in Darfur and I can't do very much about that either.

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Quote - Interesting.

You have to pretty much bust your ass to get banned from here, so if he's actually banned I'm sure it's exactly what he wanted. Not like you forget to punctuate a sentence and they ban you instantly.

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So... Vicki4 reigns?

Throw in the towel?

Eh, creators who don't buy anything? Gonna continue selling V4 stuff then afterall?

Seems like the resolve of this thread leads to it... eh?

Those vendors that don't care about profit will sell what pleases them, that won't change. The ones that actually, you know, like money and stuff, as awful as that is, they'll probably go with what makes max profit for same effort.

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yes Daz could stop making Poser compatable Figures, But look at the big picture. If they quit they would loose sales, You could say they would gain a lot of Poser owners to switch. But the bigger picture is, if they are thinking. What if Poser came out with a better figure than the Daz figure. Goodby DAZ figures?

I've sceen some excelent figures, They are very expesive and are for 3DMax. But they sell very few of those figures in relation to what DAZ does, by making up in numbers. I was going to buy one of a Gorilla, and rig him up. An excelent model, Blows the DAZ Gorilla out of the water, Very expesive in relation to other Poser compatable models. But I wanted the very best for my project.

Mass sells can turn a lot of heads. There is big maket potential, I think what should be done is sell the Top Quality Figures Seperate from the Poser Figures from the Program, That will give a Figure maker more insentive to make a super model and make his money on Mass sales. One could say it's a gamble to put in that kind of work with no guarantees. But a modeler has to have confidence in what he can achieve before he attempts such a project.

The biggest problems with new models is Clothing, and hair support. If I had the time I would do some modeling. The real trick is to get the figure rigged so all the movements don't distort. There is no reason that a modeler out there can't make an excellent figure. I see excellent models out there at the high end program stores. That don't mean they wouldn't be interested in making models for poser. If you like modeling, You will model. The rewards will be there. Especially if DAZ turns away from Poser.

I like Poser much better than DAZ Studio, the only reason I have Daz Studio is so I can import the Aniblocks into Poser so I can then fine tune them in Poser. There are couple of things that DAZ Studio has I'd like to see incooperated into Poser, but that's a different story. The main thing is not making a model in a rush.

I would rather see Poser not make a new model for a few Poser Versions, and keep what they havein those versions, than rush to put something out that the cloths don't stay on as good as the DAZ figures and the body part meshes distort very easy. You clean those areas up with a very good model, then Who needs DAZ, all of a sudden, Daz may have cut their own throat. There is aways two side to every coin.

a figure better than daz...no problem for a well disciplined team ( although not for free, the team would have to be compensated for their talent and time.)

imho, the team leader should be knowledgeable in testing, copyright laws, posing and preferably from england.

Quote - a figure better than daz...no problem for a well disciplined team ( although not for free, the team would have to be compensated for their talent and time.)

imho, the team leader should be knowledgeable in testing, copyright laws, posing and preferably from england.

LMAO!!!

Laurie

Sorry, Laurie gets my nomination to head the team. No matter how it turned out, we'd all have a BALL!

Quote - Sorry, Laurie gets my nomination to head the team. No matter how it turned out, we'd all have a BALL!

I'm disqualified. I'm not British...lolol.

giggle

Laurie

How are Daz figures becoming incompatible with Poser? I've seen it mentioned in a couple of threads now, but I haven't noticed an explanation. (Apologies if I missed an explanation earlier in this thread....)

Zygote (Daz) figures would seem to have been what made Posers 3 and 4 desirable products. It's strange to think of the two growing apart, but somehow it also seems a bit remarkable that they've stayed together as long as they have.

I think the thing which makes me most concerned here is the idea that Poser is being changed enough that certain figures will stop working. Given the extensive reliance on ERC in Poser figures, I'm very concerned that it will end up being broken. If SM is stating that they simply don't, and won't, support certain things, I really do worry about the future of all of the hacks and tricks we use so often to improve the results we get from Poser.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I don't know either, especially since SM fixed the conformer scale bug(s).

I wouldn't worry about ERC too much since SM has finally embraced it as a supported feature (Dependent Parameters).

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Quote - I wouldn't worry about ERC too much since SM has finally embraced it as a supported feature (Dependent Parameters).

I thought the Dependent Parameters tools were restricted to editing ValueParm links. Which would make it an extension of the original FBM functionality. Can the feature do more than that?

They did introduce that largely unused alternative to ERC, with Poser 7. But that doesn't seem to be quite the same thing. I may be confused, however. :lol:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

The DAZ figures are starting to use Scaling in their rigging that is inconsistant with Poser's scaling ability and the SM figures are now using Capsule Falloff zones which do not work at ALL in DS. Tit for tat I'd say.

I want to point out that DS wouldn't be where it is right now without community effort. Not bagging on it, I LIKE the program.
But...
Uber shaders and lighting? Thank omnifreaker.
Most of the original shaders outside the base? Poseworks was the one who made them.
Hand Grip? That was rigger (sadly, that was a much-needed program that kind of just fizzled out).
AniMate? gofigure!

See, we're still waiting for Smith Micro to do it for us. If innovation is going to come in Poser, it's got to come from the community. Smith Micro is going to fix flaws in the base program, and maybe add some new features. If we want Poser to be something better, we have to be willing to MAKE it better. This isn't just figures. I love that Phil is still making plugins for Poser. It's probably not making him the same kind of money that he might be making had he chosen to take a walk down another path. But you can see his passion for the program AND the community behind it.
I'm not saying making money is a bad thing. But that can't be all of what it's about.

On the other hand....if you're going to proclaim from the rooftops that it's an absolute NECESSITY, for god's sake, find a way to support the creator. I hear over and over how we need regular clothes and regular looking people....and, you know what? Those get clearanced out of the store within a year. Why? NO ONE IS BUYING THEM.

Some of the stuff we want will end up free. Most of it won't, and we have to accept that. We have to kind of realize that DAZ's model may not be what everyone goes with. But, on both sides, vendors and users, we need to build up the program to what we want, not blame everything on Smith Micro. You can get some freaking amazing work from Poser. You just have to be willing to do the work. So, if your answer to "how can I do this in Poser?" is "Use another program", maybe this isn't really the forum for you. We, as a community (not just Renderosity, but RDNA, SM, DAZ, etc) need to be willing to work, not just look for a Make Art button.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I don't what I could possibly replace the Daz figures with if the next generation releases are Poser unfriendly.

Phil has rightly encouraged user creativity as part of the solution, however, let's be honest: new figure creation or extensive modifications of already available suitable human models is extremely difficult and tedious work. My experience as a consumer suggests that only a handful of artists have the skill and patience to create something worth using. And I'm not one of them. While I'm a pretty fair hand at creating models of mechanical devices and buildings, my attempts at creating a human figure have been laughably pitiful at best.

I'd also like to point that that while Daz takes a lot of hits in the 3D forums, and not just here, for years they've been turning out complex, fairly high quality products at bargain prices. My main complaint with their latest figures is what seems to be a deliberate policy of giving every model an exaggerated anime caricature look. While users can overcome this limitation with lots of tweaking, I'm not sure the resuts consistently justify the effort. At least, not for me.

(ok, finally deciding to post this.)

actually, no, it's really not that hard to get banned. i mean, i don't know any details of communication, but the base issue was pretty easy to step into. i know i would have made the same mistake in his position, if you consider it a mistake.

and i don't think V4's popularity is due to anything but her support. certainly not any notion of quality or performance for average users. if V4 had Miki 1's support, i don't think she'd be anywhere near as popular as Miki was on release. new figures don't work because there's pretty much no follow-through, and that's assuming they get lots of support on launch. imho, people have to see new stuff they crave for the a figure at least once a week, and once a day would be better. they have to want to use the figure, and that means wanting to get content for the figure. even more importantly, they have to believe there will be more stuff they'll like in the future. they have to know that when they return to the market place, there will be more stuff they crave, and more to spend money on.

sure perfectionists care about how a figure bends. but if most people cared about that, there wouldn't have been so many images with V4's craptastic shoulders unaltered before corvas came out with his fix. people who are perfectionists with textures seem to be happy with the new UV mapping. but average texture merchants just tweak merchant resources a little, and don't worry that much about things like stretching or seams because they let the resource handle seams and resolution. and that's the people selling textures, not using them. if people really cared about realistic proportions and anatomy, i can't imagine anyone would use V4. my boyfriend cannot help actually exclaiming and talking about her arms every time i load her. and even i can tell her back is just awful in default, and very, very few morphs improve it. if expressions were that important to most users, V4's would be used more than versions before her. her topology is smoother, but how many people take advantage of it by making custom morphs?

the average user likes V4 because she gets all the cool new stuff, and will get all the cool new stuff until she's replaced.

for a figure to be loved by the masses, people have to see and want it in the galleries. they have to see and want the stuff for it in the market. they have to want to feed and clothe that figure, so to speak. and they have to be able to load and render. not load and render and achieve perfection. just load and render make what everyone else is making.

the thing is, if (when?) DAZ stops supporting Poser, the same people who won't bother switching to a new figure probably won't bother switching to new software. and people like new stuff, not old. if lots of merchants, especially those in the top 50 or 100, make it clear they'll support a specific new figure, they could set a new standard and make lots of money. or they could just keep supporting the last Vicky to work in Poser, and still make lots of money. but it's up to developers. the issue is that it's not up to developers as individuals, but as a large group.

so this thread is as relevant to merchants (or merchants to be) as they want to make it. if DAZ does stop supporting Poser, or even significantly undercut their Poser version of V4, then it is an opportunity. but i think the big issue would be coordination of effort rather than independent choice.

Quote - a figure better than daz...no problem for a well disciplined team ( although not for free, the team would have to be compensated for their talent and time.)

imho, the team leader should be knowledgeable in testing, copyright laws, posing and preferably from england.

If anyone can make this happen, IMO, it's you.

Good to read you, matey.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I'm amazed that no more people have jumped in here and screamed ANTONIA!

Right.. she's not done, but she WILL be. As will Brad, who, although a lot less exposed here, will be equally amazing.

There ARE other people than the modelers at Daz (whomever they are after Anton left?) that can make GOOD looking humans!

And from all I have seen, Antonia is going to be as free as Vickie[insert number here] - as will (at leas I think...) Brad.

And both of these figures have joints that FAR surpasses anything Daz has ever come out with.

Seriously.. I'm puzzled.. Why are you all acting like Antonia doesn't exist? she has a thread her with more than 100 pages... it's not like she's a secret! There's a working beta out - for free. She has an awesome body and a nice, easily morphable face (I should know, I made several face morphs for her in an even earlier beta stage)

I can sorta understand why Brad is overlooked.. I haven't heard about him for a while either and he is a gasp MALE figure. And we all know that only gay people (and TrekkieGrrrl) ever renders males ;) But still.. he is absolutely up to par for a male counterpart for Antonia.

BUT...

the thing is.. just as some people do not like the Daz characters, or the native Poser ones, there are thouse who'll shun everything JUST BECAUSE IT COMES FROM RENDEROSITY! There. I said it. Some people actually hates this place! Whether or not their hatred is justified is beyond the point. They do and they would rather break their arm than download a figure if it came from here.

Is it stupid? Yes. Is it stupid to disregard the native Poser figures after ONE load of them with their default low rez textures? Yes.

As it is easily seen from my renders, my favourite figure is Simon. A native Poser character. He has a GREAT body and a very morph-friendly face. But a lot of people just doesn't even consider the native Poser figures because they've HEARD that ther'yre crap.

The women are. They look odd. But the males are absolutely quite lovely!

And no there isn't a lot of content for them. But as it's been said. it's buyer's market here. I have made stuff for the native Poser figures (Simon et. al..) and it sold so bad that most of it has even fallen off the Clearance vagon and into the great big void of Has Beens.

And it doesn't really make me feel like doing a lot more for those characters, eventhough they're my personal favourites... Not much of an idea in spending weeks on something that'll sell once or twice and then no more...

So the last two things i've made has (semi-reluctantly) been something for V4. A character I never use myself other than to make promos for my stuff.. but.. it sells... Go figure...

just to say, i didn't mention Antonia not because she's not a quality figure. she is. it's because quality of the figure is pretty much irrelevant, imho. it's mainly the quantity of support. quality of support is important too, but i'd say quantity is more important.

We'll have to see what happens when there's a stable, official release out for Antonia. I know that some people, including content developers, are holding back while she's still in beta, which is quite understandable. Honestly, I've never thought of her as a serious competitor to any of the DAZ figures. I think that at best, she might serve a niche market of people interested in higher levels of realism then what the more doll-like DAZ creations provide.

If of course DAZ really decided to throw Poser-compatibility out the window - which I believe when I see it - that might change.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

sigh Since people keep bringing up the dphoadley thing...
He's not banned anymore. He had a 7-day ban. It's over. Been over for a while. He's not here right now by his own choice.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

i know. i was just responding to what pjz99 said.

For the record, I never said he was still banned. I said he was driven off by intolerance. He feels unwelcome here due to the treatment he has received for daring to be open, honest and opinionated. I can't say I haven't felt the same way on certain days.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. And, I'm very sorry to hear that he'd rather remember the one occasion we asked him to treat others with the respect that we asked others to show him on several occasions. if he wants to think that's the reason for his ban, that's fine, but that doesn't make it the truth. sigh

Anyway, we were on the subject of Poser, Figures, and what would happen if....?

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

the figures would have to be kept out of the forums and kept secret.

sorry, not me Sam, there's a far better leader in our community than i.

the team leader, i think she should have my sister's first name and, having been put through the fire, she should have my cousin's courage too.

Quote - sigh Since people keep bringing up the dphoadley thing...
.... He's not here right now by his own choice.

Hehe, so that's why this thread isn't full of renders of posette... I knew there must be a reason. ;-)

Quote - I'm amazed that no more people have jumped in here and screamed ANTONIA!

Okay. :laugh:

Antonia is the only figure I use. The figure rescued Poser for me. I was ready to give up on it because of bad joints and ever-increasing poly counts and all of the figures and garments that only look decent in their default states, before any posing or morphing is applied. Antonia is the best thing going right now in Poserdom, IMO. I pine for a male counterpart for her, and really, really hope phantom3D is coming back with Brad.

:thumbupboth:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

"...they would rather break their arm than download a figure if it came from here."

Unless Renderosity creates the figure, why should it be limited to here? The UberWench and her accessories better be available everywhere I would think.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - the figures would have to be kept out of the forums and kept secret.

sorry, not me Sam, there's a far better leader in our community than i.

the team leader, i think she should have my sister's first name and, having been put through the fire, she should have my cousin's courage too.

I await with great interest.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Renderosity has a lot of Quality Clothes, Hair, and Props, and also Figure textures. They match up with anything at DAZ. The hard part is Breaking the monopoly of the DAZ Figures. Why. When they come out with a figure. They already have Clothes and Hair in the works that are comming out at the same time. They usually are some common everyday cloths that is a must. and they are off. Then you all ready know they are comming out with the Charactures counter part person. They have that reputation.

If you want to compete, you can't come out with one figure. Male or Female. You need a committed package working with a group of clothing artist. If it is not coorinated, you are waisting your time. DAZ you know what is comming, they announce it in advance. The only reason Posers Figures don't match up is Quality Figures and Clothing. If you had Quality Figures with Poser. There wouldn't be this conversation. I do have some nice G2 Poser Figures. But as mentioned before. They don't compare with DAZs charatures, as there meshes fall apart. I only use them as background figures.

Poser has to coordinate with some good artist. I've Scene a little bit of ANTONIA. Then there is the other figure mentioned as a good Male Characture. Something to considder is how do you use the dials match up with each other. You have to remember there are always new people comming into the Poser Comunity. If they have to figure out 2 different styles of how to manipulate the charactures which may be different. This is something to take into account.

I only get to go throught the forum everyonce in a while, as I am finishing up on a full lenght movie, and have very little extra time to look at every thing. If I need something I look at what's new. I have every thing I will use as the need comes up marked, and buy at that time.

I am happy with M4 and V4, but by no means wouldn't be open to a Quality Female and Male figure. But with out cloths that work well. Well lets say my movies are not people running around nude all the time. Lets face it. How many times have you walked down the street and every body walking down the street was nude. I like a little realality here.

Trekkie, I don't really think about antonia as an option because when I saw that ugly nose of her the first time, I just couldn't get interested. :

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

This question may be slightly off the central topic here, but it does relate to some points that have already been raised in the discussion.

Why do male Daz figures generally receive far less support than the females? Is there that much of a disparity in their popularity when measured by sales?

Try finding something as simple as a t-shirt for M3 in the free section, and I think you might be surprised at how little is available. I was.

@Winterclaw - noses can be altered. Just ask 90% of American women.

ducks

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Sam, true but I still don't like it. :

Quote - Why do male Daz figures generally receive far less support than the females?

Boobs.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - Trekkie, I don't really think about antonia as an option because when I saw that ugly nose of her the first time, I just couldn't get interested. :

Antonia has a very morphable nose :)

IMO all versons of Vickie has been fugly out of the box. But they, too, asre easily morphed :)

There are some figures that are hard to morph though. There was this females, whose name eludes me right now, the one that looked very latin. No matter what I ever did I couldn't get rid of her oversized conk...

As I said, Antonia caters to a niche market. I'm just not sure which one, nose-fetishists or people who can use morphs.

-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.

Any human model that actually HAS a nose is number one with me ;o)....lol.

No-nose Vickys have been a pet peeve of mine since there was a Vicky ;o).

Laurie

I vote for Antonia as well, as the new flagship figure. I happen to like her nose the way it is. Much more natural shape and size IMHO. odf and friends have done a super job. And her rigging is just amazing, phantom3D's best work IMHO. So, if Daz does quit making Poser compatible figures, (which I dont see happening) no worries, there are already suitable replacements.

Life is hard, but what a ride.

Antonia and Brad could indeed fill much of the void, if they are not ignored. As someone above mentioned though they need to be seen being used in the galleries. As nice as the forums are, the forums do not make a trend. There are too few people who actually even read the forums. But if the figures had some organized marketing advertisement in the galleries (like Daz does) they may have a chance.

More important, if the various content creators see the figures being used and as a viable new source of cash. Without that any figure is likely doomed to obscurity.

I agree that it does not matter how good or craptacular a figure is. It all depends on the perception of the masses. People will truly buy anything as long as its the popular thing to do. You could likely sell them a stick figure, and call it the most fantastic Poser figure ever made as long as it was all the fad this year, they'd buy it.

Life is hard, but what a ride.

I see an opening in the market for a 3rd party Daz to Poser import plug-in or Python fix for the problem of compatibility.

As to figures, more, I want more and better, then I'll want more and betterer, and.....

Quote - JenX: See, we're still waiting for Smith Micro to do it for us. If innovation is going to come in Poser, it's got to come from the community. Smith Micro is going to fix flaws in the base program, and maybe add some new features. If we want Poser to be something better, we have to be willing to MAKE it better. This isn't just figures. I love that Phil is still making plugins for Poser. It's probably not making him the same kind of money that he might be making had he chosen to take a walk down another path. But you can see his passion for the program AND the community behind it.

My point exactly. You just said it better, Jen.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

the team leader should be charitable as well, considering a percentage of the profits will be going to help the less fortunate.

hi Sam

my sister's name is Karen.

Quote - hi Sam

my sister's name is Karen.

O.o

Yer got mail.

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I don't know why I am bothering to post on this but it seems to me the best strategy would be to adapt an existing figure. Say the Victoria 3 Reduced Resolution model since it is light on resources and there is still a lot of content around and software to convert V4 content etc. to it. There are new tools that make distributable changes easier, legal and kosher.

V3 makes strong male characters, kids, realistic, toon... what ever you want. Thing to do is make a V3RR variant like the Eve or Nea variant of Posette. Unimesh has great topology and sensible UVs. Re-rig with capsule fall-offs... make injection JPs for male and child variants, fix the scalability and de-particularize the face with new nostril and eyelid morphs and create new more sophisticated expression morphs. Give her a nice vulva like Judy's. I find the Generation 3 mesh incredibly robust... a good test of a mesh is how well it can body bag disparate figure shapes...

The Poser 4 Nude figures and the DAZ3 Unimesh can be successfuly shaped to pretty much any figure... try it with Wardrobe Wizard (though the head and feet will be locked). Those mesh can do M4 and V4 beautifully but also Rikishi and other dramatically different shaped figures. Has to do with mesh flow as far as I can tell... V4 and the EF figures just break when you try that radical stuff with them.

V3 and Posette had excellent mesh... in each case it was the sculpting and rigging that failed. The problem with both DAZ and EF figures is that the designers seem loath to base them on realistic anatomy and just provide a heroic or super-model injection for them. Post-P4 Poser figures seem to have almost perversely ugly default surface sculpting and DAZ makes outlandishly stylized proportions and structural sculpting.

They just don't seem to employ artists or scale modelers in the design process... that or the desire to pander to an imagined audience distorts the hell out of the sculpting. Independent modlers seem quite capable of realism that the big companies can't or will not attempt... the big guys seem not to get that a proportional and realistic and somewhat neutral base is easier for users to change into heroic fantasy forms then a wild fantasy figure is to be turned into something half-way realistic.

As a retired commercial artist of some respectable success... I feel Poser/DAZ has miss-calculated by splitting Poser between the tech enthusiasts and Fantasy theme end-users... work-a-day artist would have embraced Poser had the figures been realistic and more non-specific in the face sculpting. I used the P4 Figures and V2 and V2 Male extensively for paid work because I could make them my own from Toon to realistic. The only problem was finding respectable clothing, realistic settings and realistic hair styles. The original Poser 4 hair was the last truly real world style hair I've seen. Not even Hollywood stars wear the Poser hair available now.

You will notice when you see commercial work that the P4 and P5 are most often used... not out of laziness by the artist as many non-professionals seem to believe but simply because they are the most appropriate figures for commercial work.

I'll climb back in my hole now.

Please don't crawl back into your "hole." I agree with every word.

Quote - I don't know why I am bothering to post on this but it seems to me the best strategy would be to adapt an existing figure. Say the Victoria 3 Reduced Resolution model since it is light on resources and there is still a lot of content around and software to convert V4 content etc. to it. There are new tools that make distributable changes easier, legal and kosher.

V3 makes strong male characters, kids, realistic, toon... what ever you want. Thing to do is make a V3RR variant like the Eve or Nea variant of Posette. Unimesh has great topology and sensible UVs. Re-rig with capsule fall-offs... make injection JPs for male and child variants, fix the scalability and de-particularize the face with new nostril and eyelid morphs and create new more sophisticated expression morphs. Give her a nice vulva like Judy's. I find the Generation 3 mesh incredibly robust... a good test of a mesh is how well it can body bag disparate figure shapes...

The Poser 4 Nude figures and the DAZ3 Unimesh can be successfuly shaped to pretty much any figure... try it with Wardrobe Wizard (though the head and feet will be locked). Those mesh can do M4 and V4 beautifully but also Rikishi and other dramatically different shaped figures. Has to do with mesh flow as far as I can tell... V4 and the EF figures just break when you try that radical stuff with them.

V3 and Posette had excellent mesh... in each case it was the sculpting and rigging that failed. The problem with both DAZ and EF figures is that the designers seem loath to base them on realistic anatomy and just provide a heroic or super-model injection for them. Post-P4 Poser figures seem to have almost perversely ugly default surface sculpting and DAZ makes outlandishly stylized proportions and structural sculpting.

They just don't seem to employ artists or scale modelers in the design process... that or the desire to pander to an imagined audience distorts the hell out of the sculpting. Independent modlers seem quite capable of realism that the big companies can't or will not attempt... the big guys seem not to get that a proportional and realistic and somewhat neutral base is easier for users to change into heroic fantasy forms then a wild fantasy figure is to be turned into something half-way realistic.

As a retired commercial artist of some respectable success... I feel Poser/DAZ has miss-calculated by splitting Poser between the tech enthusiasts and Fantasy theme end-users... work-a-day artist would have embraced Poser had the figures been realistic and more non-specific in the face sculpting. I used the P4 Figures and V2 and V2 Male extensively for paid work because I could make them my own from Toon to realistic. The only problem was finding respectable clothing, realistic settings and realistic hair styles. The original Poser 4 hair was the last truly real world style hair I've seen. Not even Hollywood stars wear the Poser hair available now.

You will notice when you see commercial work that the P4 and P5 are most often used... not out of laziness by the artist as many non-professionals seem to believe but simply because they are the most appropriate figures for commercial work.

I'll climb back in my hole now.

I know that it's a fault to post here because my time is so limited at the moment but anyway ... *

You are right, Trekkie! When it comes to character creation I am hardly able to finish one character within a month as textures and morphs have to be done from scratch. And I confess that it hurts a lot to sell at most up to 30 units and then the item drowns in clearance. But it really seems to be all about that support thing. When it comes to "non-Victorias" I can see that even a little amount of new add-ons (clothes, hair) here and there makes characters sell for a long time. Each time a new set for Terai Yuki or Miki 2 hits the marketplace several sales of (rather old) character sets I offer are guaranteed. And as I do not care for selling two dozens of copies on the first day but more for a long lifetime of a product I can say that the "niche" character I've made that still get some add-ons here and there where worth the effort it took to make them.

Antonia has a very morphable nose :)

Yes, she has! Better some more polygons to tweak but a doll-nose that has to be stretched to fit an adult woman...

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:

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Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: OT sort of: Poser and a hypothetical (but very possible) situation...