how many times did you ant to model conforming gloves but didnt to it because it would take to much time? making the base model takes some hours.

 

so here i will realese a base model that can be used for FREE conforming gloves. is it perfect? no its not. is it a guide starting point? YES.

 

as you see i modeled around the finger groups so that  its easier to add polygroups around the fingers and thumb.

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That's very well done :)  I notice that in the space between the fingers you have it down to two polys, which I found a mite hard to rig, it worked better for me with four.  I also see that the poly count on the thumb is quite a bit higher than it is on the fingers - I think you probably want to have the fingers similar to how the thumb is done, for a more natural appearance and bend, but low poly count is not a bad thing either.  Check your PM :)

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thanks for your post.this is just a base model to start modeling. i am using blender. and in blender i would subdivide 1 or 2 times.

p.s.: thanks for the thumb tip. it is more detailed then the fingers.i think i will need to change this.

 

this is subdivided for a more final look. of course this is without details and shape.

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For capturing the shape of the fingers, I think you're better off with the kind of poly count you have on the thumb actually.  Also on the anatomy of the hand, the tendons that flex the fingers on the back of the hand should not appear to go all the way to the wrist; plus they should taper together a bit, they aren't parallel on a real hand.

ps: that part of the base of the pinky finger/palm of the hand is probably going to bite you on the ass if you leave it diagonally cut the way it is, imo you should turn a few edges/spin polys (whatever your modeler calls it) to avoid that diagonal cut.

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Quote -  

ps: that part of the base of the pinky finger/palm of the hand is probably going to bite you on the ass if you leave it diagonally cut the way it is, imo you should turn a few edges/spin polys (whatever your modeler calls it) to avoid that diagonal cut.

where do you mean?

thus

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you are right. i will ned to clean this up.

IceBoy your topology is looking fine to me (imo). If it were going to remain at a low subdivision level then perhaps that area of the pinky would be a problem. But once you subdivide it the polys start to blur between themselves and you shouldn't have any bending problems.

I agree about more space between the fingers, you'll need that for rigging. Great job, looking good!

Comitted to excellence through art.

thanks

i just want to make it again clear that this is meant to be a starting point. you load this model up and you start modeling from there.

 

its not meant to be a final model . not even 80%. more like 45% hehehehe ;)

Just for comparison, this is how I did the base for the set I've been working on recently - as to why the index and thumb have a little extra geometry I don't exactly remember, probably there is a better way to cut it so that extra line of edges isn't necessary but this was where I stopped.

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&so

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Question: shouldn't the mesh of the gloves loop more around the fingers instead of being so square?  IE the pointer faces loop towards the pinky and middle loops towards ring.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Who are you asking?  And tbh what are you asking, I don't really understand the question.

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Well, I saw a tut on modeling and it was talking about fingers and how to design the mesh in the best way.

 

iceboys mesh, and to a degree yours, are very square lay out.  I've made a crude layout of what I'm trying to explain since it'd be easier to show it.  Notice how the area around the knuckles are more loopy?

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I see what you're asking - that's a technique to try to reduce polys without creating to messy an edge loop structure, that's all.  That method isn't actually true to the anatomy of a real hand, and imo it's not exactly the "best" way, just one way that uses a smaller number of polygons than some other ways.

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Ah okay.  It's just that I know there are times when you need the mesh to be a certain way in order to rig things properly and I heard about that technique so I thought I should ask because I didn't know.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

While that's true, it doesn't apply to the specific trick you're asking about, since it wouldn't make rigging easier or harder - in Poser it doesn't matter at all, since the number of points doesn't have any bearing on rigging, but in other apps it does help to reduce the number of points because a weight map must be done for each joint, and the fewer vertices you have to weight the less work it will be. 

Poser uses geometrical volumes to control joint falloff (spheres and capsules, along with wedges for bending) and doesn't expose vertex weights to the user, although it seems to apply them internally in a way you can't control.  Technically it's "better" to have as low a poly count as possible, but in practice it doesn't really matter if your conformer model is 5k or 10k polys when the character itself is around 70k and typical poly hairs are usually around 20k (!)

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pjz i see that you use diamonds for topology.

 

fantaaaaaaaaaastic.

Quote - pjz i see that you use diamonds for topology.

 

fantaaaaaaaaaastic.

The diamonds aren't really modeled in per say, but an end result of subdividing. The topology has probably been subdivided once and the diamonds are a result from that.

Of course they're modeled in.  If you subdivide a grid, you get more grid.  Duh.  Topology isn't delivered by fairies in the night.

edit: Look, this is the technique used.  Obviously I didn't invent this technique but I've been using it for a couple of years now.

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Okay, show your low topology mesh and we'll see if you modeled in the diamonds (exactly as shown in your above pic) or if they are a result of subdividing.

duh yourself.

"low topology mesh" ... What do you think those pics above are?  Do you model?

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Yes I do. If that is your low topology mesh then you work too hard and are sloppy to boot!

IceBoys 1st pic is a good example of a low topology mesh.

Perhaps you should show some of your work to give some perspective.  As always I appreciate your flattering and valuable feedback.

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does a fingertip render bad (smoothing) in poser if it's several triangles all going to the same polar pt.?

As long as the geometry isn't too nutty, polygon smoothing does pretty good with that.

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wireframe

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pjz99,

Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I had to model up a hand for you.

My issue with you is you always come off as the only one who knows something, or you and only you, have the final answer. Case in point would be IceBoys original 1st pic of a low poly hand, it was very well done. You smashed it. To concede a point he may have needed to turn an egde or two in the palm area. But that was it. I say, well done IceBoy!

You say you model in the diamonds but I remain in my stance that the diamonds are a result of subdividing (as you will see in my pics). No one who is a professional in 3d modeling models a high poly mesh (as you said you do in previous post). It is always a low poly version that gets subdivided. And after subdivision takes place there are certainly some tweaks that will happen (more subdivisions, pushing and pulling polys, zbrush). If you keep your stack in place (not collapsing) then you can edit the low poly version and see how that effects the high poly version There are at least 10 different ways to get the same end result in modeling.

The first pic is of the low poly palm area, notice the tris in red. Most people think tris are bad, but not if you are going to subdivide. Also notice the box end fingers.

Now here is the next pic of the same area subdivided once. Notice how the tri's turned into little diamonds. This is the result of subdividing. Also notice how the ends of the fingers smoothed out for us.

Now we go to the top of the hand, very rough and blocky...this is low poly. Notice the tris in red.

Now after one subdivision the tris turn into diamonds. To say that you actually model these in is nonsense. They are the end result of subdividing. If you actually are modeling these in then you have waaaaay too much time on your hands. Being able to develop a proper low poly mesh that will result in anticipated topology is the key.

Keep up the good work IceBoy.

Quote - To say that you actually model these in is nonsense. They are the end result of subdividing.

You don't read very well do you:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2746568

Perhaps you just don't understand what's going on with your modeler, I don't know. You just demonstrated exactly the same technique I mentioned several posts back.  Those polys are there because you modeled them there.  Seriously, what the fuck?  You put them there, just the same as I put them there in my own wire.  Scratching my head over what you're trying to get across here, other than patting yourself on the back for one-upping me a couple of years late.

PS many 6 edge poles in your wires, your topology could use some work.

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You are a goob.

IceBoy your glove model is fine, run with it.

I don't even know WTF you're talking about saying I "smashed" Ice Boy's wire, I told him it was well done and offered him two points of feedback that were reasonable and true (tendon anatomy and the twist at the base of the pinky).

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> Quote - PS many 6 edge poles in your wires, your topology could use some work.

Really. And you are going to say my topology needs work? Let's compare shall we? Yours is on the left. See all the lines going every which way?? That looks like a bad downtown map of L.A. Mine is on the right. See how all the lines are smooth and continuous?

Nice try.

Yes really, you are in zero position to advise anyone on topology.  Six edge poles are telltale noob topo.  I don't walk around critiquing people's topo, especially for Poser stuff, but well, you brought it up.  Some educational material for you, which I encourage you to read before any future smacktalk:

http://gregory.kramida.home.comcast.net/~gregory.kramida/AlgoTutorials/TopologyGuide/TopologyGuide.html

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=93651

Additonally, your topo does nothing to convey the anatomy of an actual hand; if one were modeling conforming clothing for this guy then your topo would might be great.  Bragging about low poly count in your base mesh is also ridiculous, when the fingers of your models look like rubber tubing.

Seriously what is your issue?  Maybe half your posting history is flames directed at me personally, and you end up demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about.  What's wrong with you?

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I am a total noob, so why is six edge pole a bad thing? And where are they (it that at the tip of the fingers)? Thaks for the links though I'll try to read through them. Is it really bad to model a little higher poly count at the begining (other than time)? If so why? BTW I tried to model latex cloves for the Daz Troll once, oh it was a terrible horrid thing. All your gloves look much better.

It's not a hugely important thing unless it is near a place where bending will be happening, where having excessive numbers of edges come to a single point often produces a bump or other blemish.  The six edge poles I'm talking about are at the base of the fingers in whatsisname's model, which is where a lot of bending is probably going to be expected.  While there isn't really any good place to have more than 5 edges intersect, that is an especially bad one.

For Poser, imo absolute minimum poly count is much less a priority than how the model looks.  Models look marshmallow-y when you don't use enough polys.  I don't like marshmallow-y models, and neither do lots of other people.  Opinions vary though I'm sure.  The character figures are 70k polys, nobody gives a shit if you have a few hundred "inefficient" polys in your conformer.  How it looks and how it bends is what I care about.

This is much less important when dealing with static models that aren't rigged, but that's not the topic at hand.

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Ok, thanks. I see what you mean now. I watched a tutorial where the mesh ended up having that issuse and guy worked around it to avoid it. Now I know why. I don't plan to make anything conforming, but making a couple dynamic items before poser 10 is released would be nice.

Here's another source of a ton of good information:

http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=ddf17c4b9c1bedd367e6d1092398c798&f=25

A notion that a lot of beginning modelers have is that subdivision magically adds detail, and you can create a highly detailed model of something (say, for example, a hand) with an absurdly small number of polys.  In the real world it simply doesn't work that way.  If you start with a structure that doesn't have detail cut into it, you can subdivide it ten times and the result will be a very smooth featureless object (for example, leaving you with fingers like rubber tubing).

Ice-boy I apologize for detouring your thread.  Your glove is very well done (as I told you in my first post).

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one way to see how a polar pt. with multiple triangles causes probs in poser smoothing is to render the default poser cone (P8 or later).  they are gonna fix it, but the key for now is quads.

Quote - Ice-boy I apologize for detouring your thread.  Your glove is very well done (as I told you in my first post).

nothing wrong with talking about topology. if only we would talk more about topology. everytime a buy some conforming clothes i scratch my head. because all i see is duplicaed vertices,unvelded vertices and topology that makes no sense even on mars.  

i am working now on a new base model . but its easier because i dont need to start from beginning. hehe ;)

 

A great introduction to topology that covers a lot of ground, although not to a great deal of depth:

http://guerrillacg.org/home/3d-polygon-modeling/subdivision-topology-artifacts

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Here's a pretty badass hand topology, I wish I could remember who did this.  Somebody at cgTalk, I was bright enough to save a copy of the wireframe pic at least.

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lovely

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Isn't that five sided face on the top pic at wrist a problem?

its a five sided face.

 

but it can be fixed.

Yes, although some apps don't have trouble with them - easy enough to fix though, just cut the N-gon.  Considering how slick and perfect that model is otherwise, I doubt it was an accident, probably the person just had no reason to avoid N-gons. 

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I think that's supposed to represent the bony bit on the outside of the wrist

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Nah they're talking about this:

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oh right :)  Thought he meant the one on the outside

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Oh sure enough, I didn't notice that one :)  Dirty little N-gons!

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i worked today on some topology for a base mesh.

 

pjz what do you think?

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Lookin good, very clean :)  I think if you plan to have geometry that will handle the detail of tendons on the back of the hand, you need to go ahead and cut it into the base, but that's your choice.  I still think the tops and bottoms of the fingers are a bit more flattened than I'd have done it but good work nevertheless.

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i agree the fingers are to flat. i will fix this today.

ok new topology. tryed to lower the poly count.for a final model we will need to add more edge lopps to the fingers.

 

feedback

 

 

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I like that a lot, great job :)

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hmm i think the topology around the thumb could be a problem?

In what respect ? (looks good to me but I'm not too great at modelling yet)

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