What is the 'best' clothes creating application or plugin for Poser 8 out there? I have photoshop 7. Is that all that I need? I see some pretty amazing stuff out there and I'd like to get on the path to creating my own. What do you all suggest having in my arsenal to do that?

you would need a modeler. Like Wings3D, Blender or Hexagon. I like Hexagon the best, it is not free but very reasonable.

the path to clothing in poser ..

A modeling program, and a UV tool , a texturing program, a rigging tool or tools,

And a whole lot of time to learn al the damn things and tools ...

Poser and photoshop you have .. so you need the rest..

I use MODO and Photoshop cs4 and a set of tools ..

there is NO best SET for this ...its not the Kitchen but the COOK that makes the best out of it..

Chris

IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT BAR-CODE SENT A PM to 26FAHRENHEIT "same person"

Chris

My Free Stuff

You can rig without extra tools technically, but it's a royal pain the posterior ;o). The big one is a modeling program. If you just wanna create textures for existing clothes, then you already have all you need - Photoshop. There are so many free modeling programs out there (they really must be able to export to .obj) that you can try them all and pick the one that best suits you. I use Roadkill combined with Wings3D to do my UVs - both are free. Some love Blender. There's also Anim8tor and a few others.

Laurie

Laurie, what program you use to Rig? Just curious.

Well, I've only rigged one thing so far...lol. And I used Poser for that ;o). I borrowed the rig from the V4 Dev and just deleted the bones I didn't need. Of course, there's cleanup to the .cr2 that needs to be done and the rig does not include the grouping, etc., etc.

Those other "tools" mentioned above will definitely make your life easier and much less stressful while creating conformers ;o).

Laurie

LOL ok just wondering, I know there is a system I bought for DAZ Studio but haven't heard of another one.

If the clothes are for personal use only you can cheat a whole bunch. D3D has a program where you load a character and set an offset, etc, and make a new mesh from the base mesh. I started this way, as the rigging seemed to be the issues you see posted the most about. I took the expanded mesh which had the right groups and made some simple shirts and pants and learned to rig, and learn about fall off zones and then conform first, then create my own clothes models later. Sort of working backwards so to speak.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

For polygonal modeling and for grouping and setting material selections, all that stuff is best done in your modeler. I never saw the need to external tools for rigging, whether for conformers or for custom figures. You do need a CR2 editor for many common tasks but just getting the bones in I never saw anything really helpful in any of the various external tools.

Michaelab if you've never touched any of these tools, don't expect to be productive for at least a year, probably more. It doesn't matter how much money you spend on tools or tutorials, it will take you a long time and immense mental effort to get beyond the very basic stages (and most people never even get that far before giving up).

My Freebies

Marvellous Designer to make the cloth - unbeatable - a dream come true
zBrush to clean up and making adjustments - Industri standard
UV mapper Pro to make UVs - tried and tested for over 10 years
obj2cr2 for rigging - saves hours, literally days of work

How long to learn it all? 2 weeks should be enough if you are not distracted by other things. (I have just gone through the process)

All this programs are very cheap exept zBrush but there is a 30 day version - try it out.

Vintorix you've been working on learning modeling a bit more than two weeks.

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Two weeks? Are you a savant? LOL

I've been modeling for just over a year and I still feel like a noob ;o).

As for Marvelous Designer: while I've heard it does make nice clothes, I've also heard those clothes are more suited to dynamic cloth since it makes a Delaunay triangle mesh. That would also make it a nightmare to do the uvs. Unless of course the program itself does the uvs. I'd rather map the uvs on a model that's all quads myself ;o).

Laurie

pjz99,

True I was already familiar with ZBrush and UVMapper when I started. But you need only to learn about 5% of Zbrush. The most difficult will probably be uv mapping.

I've used Hexagon for over 5 years, since DAZ purchased the program and ran it onsale for $1.99. I had an epiphany 6 months ago and now can model just about anything I choose to. I am enjoying modeling the human form now, which had eluded me for so long, and loving every moment of it.

Laurie,

Marvelous Designer's triangle mesh works well for dynamic clothing, and you get a very nice uv map for free. (Actually you make the 3d model from the UV-map - not the other way around).

For conforming cloth you can just convert to quads in ZBrush. Nice and orderly.

I'm not talking about "how long does it take to learn the interface for Application X" and neither is the original poster. Learning basic modeling technique takes EVERYONE a long time (imo at least a year and probably more). Not trying to be discouraging, just realistic.

My Freebies

Re: Marvelous Designer

Quote - For conforming cloth you can just convert to quads in ZBrush. Nice and orderly.

I'm curious to see wireframes of results of this actually.

edit: in another thread, I'm not trying to clutter up this one.

My Freebies

I agree with pjz99. I was well over 30 when I started trying to get my head around modeling. No tutorials on the web during the early 90s. Raydream studio was the only modeler I could afford. Like I said the epiphany came 6 months ago, after almost 20 years I can model almost anything now.

Still not much of an edge modeler. but I can do faces box modeling then retopologize in Zbrush, so it's a wash anyway.

pjz99, " Learning basic modeling technique takes EVERYONE a long time"

It depends. 3ds max and Maya takes years to learn. On the other hand programs like Sketchup (for architecture) and Marvelous Designer (for cloth) can be learned in a few days, enough to get started.

"I'm curious to see wireframes of results of this actually."

OK, I start a new thread. I just been working on a Wintercoat (with fur lining), it is a WIP so take it for what its worth.

Hi All

Any further tutorial links for wings, I have a couple form Dr Geep any others?

Paul, watch out. Vintorix gotcha by the coat-tails... anytime someone says "ya can't", there's always the bright young upstart to prove ya wrong. :biggrin: ooooooo I love this!

And Vintorix, don't let them give you timelines. Fly by what you know. You're a bright star... shine!

Aren't I just the PITA tonight... :lol:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

ha ha, thank you RobynsVeil for your support. I am a beginner true albeit not an young upstart but an experienced computer programmer (and humanitarian if I may say so) that sold my company and went into early retirement so I could consentrate on art. Of course it is a great advantage to have no distrations! :)

Yes, with Poser and Blender and, I dare say, Marvelous, you want to be able to hunker down and do the obsession thing. I know I would lose myself easily for hours in Bach and Blender ... and almost lost other things as well. Oh well, there's always a sacrifice, isn't there?

Good ON you! May 2011 be a bright year for you, Vintorix.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Paul, watch out. Vintorix gotcha by the coat-tails... anytime someone says "ya can't", there's always the bright young upstart to prove ya wrong. :biggrin: ooooooo I love this!

A bit longer than two weeks ago... Look, I'm not trying to crush anyone's dreams, but seriously it doesn't matter how much money you spend on tools or tutorials, it will take you a lot of time and mental effort to get anywhere beyond the very beginning stages. IMO (still) at least a year.

I should point out, even in May 2009 he was a good ways past the noob stage.

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I'm afraid I'll always be at the noob stage, Paul... there's modellers like you and Vintorix and Fabiana and people of your natural talent, and then there's those of us who dabble but never quite make the grade.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - I'm afraid I'll always be at the noob stage, Paul...

Until you stop saying that, it'll keep being true. Persistence and effort are 95% of it, talent is 5%. That's what I'm trying to get across about having realistic expectations :)

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Actually it is a matter of a switch going off in your brain. That is how it was for me. I call it my epiphany and that is exactly what it was. Just like a light comes on. A combination of learning the program you choose to use, getting your mind around working in 3 dimensions on a 2 dimensional display and grasping the concept of turning a primative into an organic shape. The latter was my biggy

can somebody post the general workflow ?
from beginning to the end result....and which programs for which steps, and why.

Thanks :)

edit: so like why you need to do the uv part, or why you need cr2 editor...etc.etc

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

If you want to model clothing (general steps):

Determine basic design, whether from a reference, or for an original design, whatever works (pencil and paper, 2d graphics program, or you can design right in the modeler like I do)
Import an un-morphed, zero pose character figure (e.g. Simon or V4 or whatever) to build the model around, to ensure a good fit and ergonomics.
Build the model of polygons in your modeling program of choice
If you're only going to apply simple color to the model, you can stop here. If you want to do anything with bitmapped textures or other material techniques, you want to UVmap the model. Read the link and others like it, it's too big a discussion for a single paragraph. Nearly all modeling applications include some form of UVmapping tools these days.
Export the geometry to the target application's format (e.g. Poser, export to OBJ format); this is often a lot more complicated than you expect. Several features in Poser require polygon groups be assigned (e.g. material zones, or body part groups) but Poser's native tools for assigning polygon groups are terrible for this purpose. It's a lot easier to do these polygon groups in the modeler and then export them with the geometry; getting this to work can be a challenge.
Import the model into the target application (e.g. Poser) and make sure all your groups etc. are correct
If the garment is to be treated as dynamic cloth, go to the Cloth Room and set up your simulation (see gobs of tutorial info from Phil Cooke and elsewhere)
If the garment is to be treated as a conforming figure, go to the Setup Room and rig it (look for tutorials on this, there are many)

A CR2 editor is just amazingly useful for many Poser content creation tasks, there are so many applications that are harder without one. Some tasks can be done within Poser but are just awkward; many tasks are simply impossible in Poser's native toolkit (removing junk materials, rename shader nodes, mass import or removal of morph targets, etc).

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Anyone thinking it takes years to learn how to model, just look at me. I downloaded Wings 3D for the 1st time about 8 months ago, 1 month after starting to mess around in Poser. Yes, it does take some tutorial watching and reading, but I think it was time well spent. Before Wings tho, I proved it was possible to make some pretty detailed props using nothing but Poser primitive shapes and a little texturing. I'm not an expert in any area by any mean, but I'm more of a Jack-of-all-Trades. Just remember, practice, practice, practice (and read, and practice some more.) And last but not least, use the most important resource tool you have at your expense, the forums! If you don't know it, chances are, someone around here does, and even more, you're probably not going to be the only person wanting the answer to your question(s). One side note, I do it the hard way and use Poser to rig my figures and conforming clothes, so I can't tell you what utilites would benefit you, but one day I hope to get something to make my life easier :o)

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

i like the summary ...very nice :)

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

PJZ99:

What are some good cr2 editors?

Best one by a huge margin

If you spend money on any single tool for Poser content creation, outside of modeling/texturing tools, spend it on that.

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So that will rig clothes, or assist in the rigging?

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

For making a mesh (obj) into conforming clothing, nothing beats PhilC's obj2cr2. It completely takes the pain out of the setup room because, well, you don't go into the setup room at all. All popular figures are supported and Phil's even provided a way to support custom figures.

An ABsolute must-Have for anyone making conforming clothing... well worth the pittance he charges for it.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

That's a tool that allows you to not learn rigging, as long as you are willing to fit your designs to one of the premade rigs. Not that that's bad, if you're just plain not interested in learning rigging, but it requires that you compromise to fit the tool - if you learn how to rig for yourself, you don't have to compromise. Any tool that applies a premade rig falls into the same category imo.

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I agree with RobynsVeil. PhilC's obj2cr2 is an absolute must-Have. You still need to do a few simple dress and t-Shirts manually though, to understand the process (which is not difficult).

When pjz99 doesn't agree, we must examine his background. And if you do, you will discern that pjz99 favor a minimalistic style with very simple mesh, easy to group. It is his style quite simple, nothing wrong with that. However if you try to rig the more complicated models from Marvelous Designer with overlapping cloth and what not, life is too short to forego obj2cr2.

This little incident illustrates how important it is to know a persons background before evaluating his views.

Well, I've already learned to rig, I just want a little help. Sooner or later I will spring for PhilC's obj2cr2, but until then, I will have to do it the hard way.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Quote - When pjz99 doesn't agree, we must examine his background. And if you do, you will discern that pjz99 favor a minimalistic style with very simple mesh, easy to group. However if you try to rig the more complicated models from Marvelous Designer with overlapping cloth and what not, life is too short to forego obj2cr2.

You are greatly in error. It would be good if you don't advise on topics you don't understand, e.g. my own work. Stick to what you know.

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Thank you for illustrating exatly what I meant. Then perhaps you can manually group and rig the model from Marvelous designer you got from me, and tell us how long time it took. So we can compare your efforts with Phil's obj2cr2 output.

Gentlemen.

if we can zip our trousers up please, we have a person asking about how to make clothes, so lets stick to that shall we?

Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.

Quote - Gentlemen.

if we can zip our trousers up please, we have a person asking about how to make clothes, so lets stick to that shall we?

So true... Only help I can offer would be in dynamic clothes really, and some rigging. I'm just barely out of the kiddie pool when it comes to this stuff.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

The point that is being missed (probably intentionally) is that if you stick to premade rigs and don't learn how to rig for yourself, you are constrained to work within the premade rigs. The basic fact is that you will be compromising to the tool and limiting yourself. Grouping and rigging the aforementioned coat is not the issue, it's grouping and rigging something like this (nudity) that no premade rig is going to be suitable for.

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pjz99,

Aren't you ashamed to actually misinform the beginners like the orginator of the thread? Making things appear more difficult than they really are? Actually today with Marvelous Designer and obj2cr2 a beginner can get started and make some models without any modeling skills at all.

The Dark Sorceress WIP - Bodice model could I group and rig manually in 5 minutes - and I'm a beginner too.

Quote - The point that is being missed (probably intentionally) is that if you stick to premade rigs and don't learn how to rig for yourself, you are constrained to work within the premade rigs. The basic fact is that you will be compromising to the tool and limiting yourself. Grouping and rigging the aforementioned coat is not the issue, it's grouping and rigging something like this (nudity) that no premade rig is going to be suitable for.

Or, we can just go a build a new figure from scratch, thus removing all the issues that V4 brings with her. For those that agree with that suggestion, I can recommend a site for you: CG Society are looking for exactly your mindset. :biggrin:

For the elitist modeller, true: nothing like struggling with the setup room. Which I've done. And learned bugger-all. Then, I found Obj2Cr2 and was able to move on. If my objective was to learn rigging, then I would have failed my objective. As it was, I succeeded: creating conforming cloth with the least amount of effort.

Relax, Paul... we're here to have fun, not re-invent the wheel. Rigging clothing in the Setup Room is daunting. I spent many a fruitless, pointless hour in there, with no help from the manual or this forum, either. I finally decided: why not make life easier using a tool that works, when the point isn't to learn jcms and ercs but to make an item of conforming clothing?

I don't look for the easiest way to do things in all cases: after all, I've chosen Blender to model in, not Wings or C4D (which I can't afford - few that I know can). That should say something about my willingness to explore concepts. I've also editted Cr2s in NotePad++, but JEEZ, isn't it ever so much easier in Poser File Editor? Hmmmm???

Get my point?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

When a beginner gets started he doesn't want in depht information special cases or exemptions from the rules. He just want information over how to get something finished in the shortest amount of time possible.

And the title of the thread implies: beginner, doesn't it? Not someone who wants to learn how to rig figures: someone who wants tools to make clothing.

However, if you are prepared to put together a rigging tutorial, I'll be the first to beat a path to your door to get it, Paul! Seriously! I haven't found one yet that speaks English i can understand (uses human-decipherable language) so that concepts gel.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

ah. so, to chose a metaphor, you think instead of showing someone the kitchen, the utensils, the ingredients and how to bring them together, we should show them the ready meals in the freezer and the microwave.

sorry, but I disagree. it's better in the long run to teach them properly, an approach which can be used with many many programs than teach them one method restricted to one program only.

Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.

It bothers me that this is turning into "my workflow is the best workflow" rather than "what do I need to learn to be able to model and rig clothes". I don't know how to say it simpler than I've already said it multiple times: If you rely on a premade rig and don't learn to rig for yourself, you are compromising yourself to the premade rig. There's nothing insulting or rude in saying this, and Phil Cooke would agree with me I'm sure (because it's basic truth). If you're OK being limited in this respect that's fine.

Quote - The Dark Sorceress WIP - Bodice model could I group and rig manually in 5 minutes - and I'm a beginner too.

If you have nothing but smacktalk please just shut up. You're being rude and spreading bad advice. Thanks.

My Freebies

I don't know about anyone else, but I think I've benefited from learning the "hard/long' way(even tho if I had the money I woulda bought obj2cr2 a LONG time ago lol), helps me understand a little more about what I am doing. When I 1st started Poser, my initial idea was to make a comic book, with some animated parts. I may still do that someday, but my interest has grown so much further then just loading figures and making "art." Now that I think about it, if I wanted to persue my comic book idea, I could do it even better now that I can make just about anything I would need, including custom costumes, etc...

But what it all boils down to is, you get out of it what you put in. Every bit of effort you take learning a different aspect, be it rigging clothes, making morphs, texturing, modeling, well, anything, you get back in the the long run. It opens up way more possibilities for you.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

"teach them properly" means: answer the request. If someone asks me the time, I'm not going to tell them how to build a clock.

The OP asked: "What is the 'best' clothes creating application or plugin for Poser 8 out there?" The OP didn't ask how to learn to rig. Op wants an application or plugin. I answered that request.

If you follow PhilC's posts, if asked a setup room question specific on to how to use it, he answers the question. He doesn't tell the user "oh but, you could do away with all that hard work... etc" and plug his products.

I'm answering the question.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - However, if you are prepared to put together a rigging tutorial, I'll be the first to beat a path to your door to get it, Paul! Seriously! I haven't found one yet that speaks English i can understand (uses human-decipherable language) so that concepts gel.

Phil Cooke speaks tolerable English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jxSOL_MAM (1 of 3)

My Freebies

Never in my long life with computer software have I seen so much resistance to beginners as in the Poser society. Arkaic, old, out-dated information, secretiveness, small-mindness, misinformation. I trust only one man, PhilC. What will happend if he is run down by a truck? Will the Poser community collapse?

?

Yep I never help anybody around here, I'm just a big meanie.

My Freebies

... right.. I'll bow out here since there seems to be a problem with one poster and the nature of whats being said vs what they reading.

Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.

I hope PhilC doesn't get hit by a truck, it's his turorials that taught me how to rig!

Quote - Yep I never help anybody around here, I'm just a big meanie.

Me niether! I never make models or clothes for anyone... :oP

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Quote - Never in my long life with computer software have I seen so much resistance to beginners as in the Poser society. Arkaic, old, out-dated information, secretiveness, small-mindness, misinformation. I trust only one man, PhilC. What will happend if he is run down by a truck? Will the Poser community collapse?

?

Actually, I have, Vintorix. It's called CG Society. If you don't build your model from scratch and shade it yourself and-and-and, you get the same sort of treatment. There is no tolerance for using tools or pre-made figures or anything: it's almost like the members coded Maya themselves.

Oh well, there are going to be elitists anywhere, I suppose. It's all what you want to do with Poser. I write shaders using Matmatic... not common practice among Poser users, for which I had to learn Python. The feedback I got was positive: i learned a lot and make reasonably decent shaders, based on sales. But I don't expect everyone who wants to get a grip on the material room to learn to code in Python and use Matmatic. it's not for everyone. And not everyone wants to get the noggin aroung GC either. I think it's essential, but others have the right to feel how they do about it.

There are some things that I'll never get my head around, I suppose. Too bad that for that reason I'm considered less of a Poser user by superb modellers-riggers like Paul. :blink:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Yep I never help anybody around here, I'm just a big meanie.

Horsehockey! LOL

Laurie

I don't understand why you think it's elitist to encourage someone to learn the Setup room. I also don't understand why you're filtering out part of what I'm saying about premade rigs - you seem to be reading "DON'T EVER USE THIS" when I'm not saying that.

Quote - Too bad that for that reason I'm considered less of a Poser user by superb modellers-riggers like Paul.

You can think this if you feel you have to, but I NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT. Where did that even come from?

My Freebies

RobynsVeil, I have seen the stuff in your store it is absolutly first class. Also I really respect a (Girl!) who use Blender, have a mixed network with windows and Linux along with a number of advanced tools.

Just to keep the allimportant sense of proportions, lets us remember that it is to paint that is the highest form of art. Like the old masters or lets say, Andy Simmons. That is just what I like with you, the painterly touch. What I hate most is plastic look and feel.

What is best?

A 3D copy lit by a flash light or the original carved in stone and lighted by the sunrise with subtle leaves shadows from the surrounding trees?

Paul, you are right, and I am wrong. Obj2Cr2 is not a valid tool (plugin) for the beginner modeller to import Obj files into Poser. Beginners need to learn how to rig or they are learning it all wrong.

I'll go let PhilC know, shall I?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Some of you know I've just used the setup room for the very first time just this week. After 13 some-odd years of using Poser. Everytime I manage to overcome something, I get a sincere feeling of satisfaction, like I've "graduated" somehow ;o). But I fall into the "tinkerer" group of Poser users. If you look at my gallery you'll notice how sparsely populated it is. That's because I don't make pictures with Poser as much as I make stuff for Poser...lol. Then, there's the other camp. The ones who prefer not to have to tinker or to tinker as little as possible so that they can achieve their main goal - making pictures. Nothing wrong with either. Which way you go all boils down to what your main goal is; learning all aspects of Poser that you can, or making things easier for yourself so that you can get down to the business of making an image.

Perhaps that's something the OP should give some thought to first before getting/buying the associated programs :o). Are you a tinkerer or are you a renderer?

Before anyone twists what I've said the wrong way, I am in no way saying that one camp is better or worse than the other. It's all down to what interest you the most.

edit: for what it's worth, it was pjz99 that patiently and willingly led me through the process of using the setup room. And I fudged it a whole lot before I finally got anything to work right...lol. He was neither condescending nor impatient but very, very helpful indeed. I'm grateful.

Laurie

Robyn I don't know why you're so dead set on ignoring what I've written and inventing your own meaning.

My Freebies

Quote - That's a tool that allows you to not learn rigging, as long as you are willing to fit your designs to one of the premade rigs. Not that that's bad, if you're just plain not interested in learning rigging, but it requires that you compromise to fit the tool - if you learn how to rig for yourself, you don't have to compromise. Any tool that applies a premade rig falls into the same category imo.[

I'm justplain not interested in learning rigging, at this point. I was interested, in the past, but failed miserably despite tutorials and hours of effort. Perhaps, in the future, I'll take it up again.

Quote - I don't know how to say it simpler than I've already said it multiple times: If you rely on a premade rig and don't learn to rig for yourself, you are compromising yourself to the premade rig. There's nothing insulting or rude in saying this, and Phil Cooke would agree with me I'm sure (because it's basic truth). If you're OK being limited in this respect that's fine.

Yep, I'm fine with that for the moment, because it works and my attempts at rigging my own failed, and on an epic scale. Something works for this beginner - particularly a plugin - I'll stick with it.

Eventually,I would like to learn how to rig. I'd like to learn dynamics first though, and I've been equally frustrated by that aspect of poser, too. I think it's because I'm basically quite challenged in terms of learning stuff. I'll try for a few days and if all I get is poo, I tend to give up. I will have another go at dynamics, though, and I will have another go at rigging. When the time's right. Thanks for your efforts at clarifying your meaning, Paul... sorry I misunderstood you.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - I think it's because I'm basically quite challenged in terms of learning stuff. I'll try for a few days and if all I get is poo, I tend to give up.

Oh my...lol. I'm exactly the opposite. I'll keep at it and keep at it like a starving dog on a ham bone...lmao.

Laurie

Good ON you, Laurie! Your work shows the result of that preserverance. It's brilliant!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Well, I do tend to get a tad obscessed...lol. To the exclusion of everything, including sleep...hehe ;o).

And on another note, it's just past midnight here. Happy New Year everyone :o).

Laurie

The forum rules say I gotta post this.

My Freebies

Happy New Years to you too, Laurie, and you Paul.... that is TOO cute!!!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - The forum rules say I gotta post this.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!

LOL

Laurie

zombie kitten going for the brain! ruuuuunnnn

Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.

Happy New Years!

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

This thread with Laurie's shoe rigging job is actually not a bad walkthrough - some details are not covered directly (grouping e.g.) but we talked about a lot of stuff:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2818594&page=1

My Freebies

I hope you do know now that you've told me all this, Paul, I'll be bugging you when I start doing rigging... :biggrin: and I do appreciate that you know of what you speak. Your models are eloquent testament to that fact!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

wow ... workflow created kiss and make up scenario. and Happy New Year too :)
I'm all into the make art button, you know, although I did rig a fish in the setup room a couple of years ago.

my last render of 2010 is now cooking. Hopefully to start doing my own stuff in 2011...after using Poser and grabbing all youse guy's stuff since 1996 or 95 ... or whenever PFO started, '99. I should learn how to do this pretty soon. :)

I truly appreciate all the advisement in this thread. I too believe better to learn the hard stuff..then the easy way is much more appreciated and you have the knowledge of both...and can tweak or whatever needs to be done.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Actually, after I got the darn thing down and managed to get a non-screwed rig, I just used the previously made one for the newest shoes I just made...lol. Shortcuts, always shortcuts ;o).

Now...to make a blank .cr2 :D

Laurie

Quote - I too believe better to learn the hard stuff..then the easy way is much more appreciated and you have the knowledge of both...and can tweak or whatever needs to be done.

Yep, I agree with this as well. But different strokes for different folks as they say ;o). These days there's so many program "helpers" that you really don't need to learn the hard stuff, as others have said. But I think it's better if you know because eventually you'll want to graduate to something more complicated that the helpers probably can't do :o).

Laurie

You know me Laurie, I [usually] agree with you :oP

After all, you were my mentor in the beginning, and for that I am greatful. If you hadn't pointed me to Wings, who knows where I would be now.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Quote - You know me Laurie, I [usually] agree with you :oP

After all, you were my mentor in the beginning, and for that I am greatful. If you hadn't pointed me to Wings, who knows where I would be now.

LMAO...well, that's nice, but a mentor normally "helps" you with something. All I did was say "Hey, go check out Wings3D"...lololol.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - You know me Laurie, I [usually] agree with you :oP

After all, you were my mentor in the beginning, and for that I am greatful. If you hadn't pointed me to Wings, who knows where I would be now.

LMAO...well, that's nice, but a mentor normally "helps" you with something. All I did was say "Hey, go check out Wings3D"...lololol.

Laurie

Don't be so modest. You answered every question I came at you with :oP

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

If you'd said: "Hey, go check out Blender3D..." I can betcha BionicR wouldn't be calling you a mentor, Laurie... it was an excellent suggestion.

I'm just masochistic: hence Blender. I guess I must have some modicum of persistence. Just finishing this:

...and just when I thought I was doing okay, my best friend in the world who was helping me with this did this:

She's a real modeller... I'll get there, but yeah, need to stick with it!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

If you have the patience to learn Blender, you should be able to tackle rigging with a little bull-headed stubborness. I went the easy route modeling, but the long way in other areas. It's worked for me so far.

BTW, nice hat. Your friend did ok too :o)

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

They look just like they're fresh from the Outback...sans dust of course...lol.

Nice :o)

Laurie

When you get around to trying rigging again I'll be happy to help. Persistence is really 95% of it in CG. Robyn as far as the hat models go, really the only structural difference between yours and the other one is the teeth, and those are just cones with a little tweaking, you can do that.

edit: Once you rig your first thing successfully, it all gets a lot easier to understand and you learn much faster. The really hard parts are just getting your head around what bones do and how the Setup room works, and then all the immense trivia collection of CR2 cleanup and morphs and whatnot. Individually these things are not terribly hard to suss out, just OH MY GOD there are so many.

My Freebies

If it's any consolation (and I feel like I'm highjacking the thread here, I'm sorry), between Morph Manager and CR2Builder, I got my shoe cr2s cleaned out pretty quick ;o). I'll be keeping those in my toolbox...hehe.

Laurie

This thread got out of hand before I had a chance to post. Two years in, I am still a beginner. This stuff is difficult for me. When I got Poser I could already model a bit in Blender. So within a few weeks I was strugging with the setup room. A few days and nights, no progress. I posted on the forum. It must have looked like a really stupid question. Who helped me? PhilC. He needn't have helped me, he could just have said "Buy my OBJ2CR2 program and it will solve your problem". He didn't. I was so impressed with his patience and willingness to explain that I checked out his website and found OBJ2CR2 there. With what I have learned now and the confidence I have gained, I might be willing to venture into the setup room again.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Another fine day and a new year!

So, to sum it up for Michaelab, which I hope is still among us, I make a final statement.

You have a choice. Either you listen to the experienced Poser user crowd, with years of Poser experience behind their backs. Or, you listen to me, a beginner like yourself, that just have gone through the process.

And my advice is this:

Start with Marvelous Designer and make dynamic clothes. You need NO other program as texturing can be done in this program too. This is not an "art with push a button" but a marvelous tool just as the name suggests.
When you have many successful dynamic models under your belt you can progress to conforming cloth. Then you first need to learn UV mapping, a prerequisite because obj2cr2m will not work if not every single pixel in the model is UVMapped. And BTW when you are learning don't work on your own models but on commercial objects you have bought, because, 'One thing at a time!' UVMapper Pro is a good choice because that is the program most commonly used. obj2cr2m to do the rigging goes without saying. Both are cheap.
When the time eventually comes up to learn modeling, buy Cinema 4D if you can afford it, otherwise Blender. But before you do that learn a simple program like Sketchup (free) just so you are not a complete beginner when you start tackling those large programs. Also it is fun to model all kind of things it is stupid to go through a such large learning process only for modeling cloth!

When you feel comfortable with all this it is time to learn manual rigging, not before. And do the manual grouping in the modeling program, not in Poser.

It is good to remember that the people who are supposed to help and guide you, the experienced Poser users don't have Marvelous Designer, and don't know it. That should give you some food for thought! :)

I might need to avail myself of your help soon than either of us thought, Paul.

The hat: it can be a smart prop, or it can be a conforming figure [ Y / N ]

If I go with making this a figure, I'll need to have a jaunt into that dread room, since Obj2Cr2 doesn't really manage headgear.. [ Y / N ]
(those that know can answer, here, like the man himself?)

If I had my druthers, I'd make it a figure over a smart-prop. Shouldn't be all that hard to do, should it? I might have a look on 1. Phil's support forum 2. on here for making that sort of thing like a hat, a figure (be a bit like making hair a figure, wouldn't it? roughly the same location)

Thanks ever so much in advance to whoever might be interested in answering this. Hmmmm perhaps this should be its own thread. I just hijacked this one (giving it back )

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Since everybody else seems to be sleeping why can't we try?

Examening some models I see that hats come in 2 varieties, smart props and figures. For instance the wizard hat in 'M4 Windy Wizard Robe' has over 30 morphs. So the question must be, what do you want to manipulate? Answer that question and we can have a go at it.

Works for me... I've found that I like figure hair better than prop hair (hr2) because it allows me better control over it once it's been parented (or conformed)... BUT I'm not really all that sure what the difference is, really. These are all such grey areas.

In terms of manipulation, I'd like to be able to move the hat about the head a bit (attitude settings) but really, I hadn't thought about much more than that. You know, come to think of it, it might be a good idea to offer two different types: figure for on the head, and smart-prop for that hat-in-hand option.

Morphs? Well, it would need to follow a size morph, in case we have a case of Aussie hydrocephaly and possibly some sort of hair morph, except there we enter into some really dark waters. This is getting more complex than I thought it would be.

Just to let you know: this is a value-added feature of an up-coming character (fair-dinkum Aussie bloke) of HeRaZa's. Modelling's pretty-much done, texturing is too, just need this bit doing and we're laughin' (as they say here in Oz )

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

If you are not sure what you want to manipulate, and never have done it before why don't you leave it as a smart prop?

You will still be able to,

Scale
xScale
yScale
zSclae
yRotate
xRotate
zRotate
xTran
yTran
zTran

in the usual fashion.

Ah vintronix...am I to assume that because some model the old-fashioned way and we don't use Marvelous Designer and never have that we're some sort of poor, misguided morons or don't know what we're talking about and because you use it you're some sort of guru - a wise Confuscious-like character that one should heed because, well - MD is the end-all, be-all?

..........

Damn the TOS....dammit, dammit, dammit....

Laurie

LaurieA, I get your point!

I leave you alone.

I was just asking if I should assume? Your posts are full of craftily "loaded" phrases that sound like "don't listen to the old-timers - they're idiots"

Quote - ...It is good to remember that the people who are supposed to help and guide you, the experienced Poser users don't have Marvelous Designer, and don't know it. That should give you some food for thought! :)

And FWIW, some of us old-timers do help and guide and have lo these many years. I'm just sayin' ;o).

Laurie

Actually I'm familiar with the type of tool, as I said before, and I'm not particularly recommending against it. Like premade rigs, Marvelous Designer and tools like it allow you to skip learning modeling but again you are compromising to the tool. A vast amount of clothing items are just not suited to dynamics at all, and the triangle mesh that it outputs is terrible by any outside standard.

Keep in mind there's a pretty serious problem with the uninstaller.

My Freebies

Quote - You have a choice. Either you listen to the experienced Poser user crowd, with years of Poser experience behind their backs. Or, you listen to me, a beginner like yourself, that just have gone through the process.

Am I a beginner since I don't have "years" of experience?

Going on 9 months here.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Guys, relax... I don't think Vintorix meant anything disparaging against the more knowlegeable group. I think he's just excited about Marv Designer particularly for beginners.

Although I've been doing Poser for 5 years or so, I totally feel like a rank novice when it comes to some of Poser's more "arcane" (well, to me, anyway :blink:) features like the Cloth Room and definitely the setup room. Paul has kindly offered to help me get my head around this... which I think is very lovely of him. I always did want to learn things properly, eventually, but you how things go when you put things on the "Eventually Bench".

So, I'll learn it now and apply it now and we'll publish it all here so we can all learn from that? Wouldn't that be awesome! :woot: Another brilliant page for Acadia to add to her Critical Poser Pointers Wiki (the "critical" bit is mine: you don't realise how important a tool is until you learn it and then, it's like: why didn't I ever use this before? Case in point: morphing brush!).

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Since I just started figuring out the setup room, I just started thinking about making a "Setup room for beginners" basic illustrated tutorial. I'll put my current projects aside for today and work on putting that together. It won't be much, but it will be what I've learned up to this point, and it may help clear some things up for some people.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Brilliant stuff, BR! :thumbupboth: I'll be the one with the wide eyes and huge smile taking notes in the front row - I just love it when the team all pulls together!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Attached Link: Poser Rigging For Dummies

Ok, it's not much, but I hope it clears a few things up and gets you started in the rigging department. The section of rope used in the 1st part of tutorial can be downloaded from the Intro screen so you can follow along for that part.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Very nice BR :o). Although these old eyes were watering at the bright yellow on the black background...lmao.

Laurie

Since you asked about a hat, Robynsveil, I'd never even consider making it a figure. There's no benefit in that that I can think of. A parented prop works just as well, and you can still have all sorts of "brim-curling" morphs ect if you want.

And it's a nice hat. Two nice hats. Different but equally nice.

I use the tools I can lay my hands on. I've never been friends with the setup room, if I am to rig a figure from scratch I use PhiBuilder and if we're talking clothes, I use OBJ2CR2. I dont' see any reason in reinventing the wheel, and so far Iv'e never been able to model anything that I couldn't rig with OBJ2CR2. I even cheat and use Wardrobe Wizard to put the body handles in (converting to and from the same figures gives you body handles ;) ) So.. I cut all the corners I can cut. I'm not that kind of masochist ;)

Quote - Very nice BR :o).

Thank you ;o)

Quote - Although these old eyes were watering at the bright yellow on the black background...lmao.

lol sorry, That was what color my text was on last time I made a Flash banner, and I didn't think to change it.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Trekkie, not all people can afford(like me) to get all the nifty tools to make life easier. If I had them, I'd use the crap out of them and make a lot more conforming clothes (hint to anyone that would buy obj2cr2 or WW2 for me...hehehehe). But I made that tutorial for people who may want to learn for themselves as well.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Nice tutorial, BionicR... you make it look really easy!

I was going to offer to start a new thread on this topic with a freebie hat... anyone interested?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Hehehe...for me, this is a hobby for now. And since times are tough and I like eating, I prefer to spend as little money as possible since I can still do everything and not spend any money other than what I paid for Poser...hehe.

Color me cheap ;o).

Laurie

Quote - Hehehe...for me, this is a hobby for now. And since times are tough and I like eating, I prefer to spend as little money as possible since I can still do everything and not spend any money other than what I paid for Poser...hehe.

Color me cheap ;o).

Laurie

...with a good sense of priorities, too, Laurie, like shoes for the kids and dinner on the table. :blink: I tend to agree. Had this discussion about Reality on that other forum, and the Reality enthusiasts countered with "but that hardly a dinner out for two!" Actually, that will feed my family for a week: I know how and where to shop. Poser can be as inexpensive or dear, as creative or MakeArt or anything in between as we want or can afford or wish to spend or want to spend time learning to create. It's important for software junkies like me to realise that there is no such thing as "need" in Poser. Want, yes. But not need.

So, revising my statement above: Obj2Cr2 is desire-able. As long as the kids are getting their 3 squares and you don't wish to get into something (learning rigging) that would actually prove useful in your Poser experience, by all means get it. But realise the alternatives are by no means unattractive.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Oh, btw, here's that hat I'll be giving away...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

I promised to keep away but I couldn't resist, when I see the discussion stray away again.

That Marvelous Designer makes it easy for beginners is just an extra bonus, not the main thing. The main thing being that it makes cloth more natural and believable and advanced, and have the potential to turn Poser Barbie dolls and plastic cloth into real art. Instead of an occupation where grown people are dressing dolls.
You are talking as if the setup room was the problem when it is the groping that is the problem. (or should I say the tiresome part). If you go into the setup room with a real and advanced piece of cloth that is incorrect grouped you are going to have problems and no matter how hard you try it is not going to work.

So, now I am going to keep away, I promise!

-

That is impressive work, Vintorix! I'm impressed... and very jealous!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

It is not I who is the modeler in this case RobynsVeil!

Regardless, it is a spectacular piece of work!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

"So, now I am going to keep away, I promise!"

I knew that would last. not.

Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.

the question I have is ... how does this go from the questin on how to make clothing to a inflamed discussion on technique with people getting upset and all.

Isn't it possible to just discuss the creation thing, be it by whatever means? Can't we just discuss each method without having to argue on what is the better way to get to the same place?

I would like to learn whatever way.... hearing all the possibilities and explaining each would be fine with me, and I'm sure the OP as well. That's why I asked about workflow. Sure, there are different methods....why not concentrate on flushing that out instead of hashing out which is better and getting all tied up into that.

I prefer Silo to Hex ... so what? I prefer Poser to DS..so what? as long as the end result makes me all warm and fuzzy inside, what does it matter?

So with that..vintorix..get your butt back in here and lets all play nice together. I would love to learn this stuff.

Thanks :)

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

I couldn't agree with Dave more. Who cares what road we take to get from point A to point B. Sometimes it's a bit curvier road than others, but we all get there in the end. I think MD is a neat-o program, but I can model and it doesn't take much time to make things, it's uv mapping and texturing that eats away at my clock (I said CLOCK lol).

I think the post has been answered tho, so I'd like to hear the OP's opinion on the software/utilities mentioned, and which he is willing to try. Then we can go from there on assisting him with those. There's enough people here that we can train yet another, not too long ago I was the eager student (still am actually) I just like helping others and sharing what I have learned thus far.

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

also, not mentioned yet, is PhilC's Clothing DEsigner

http://www.philc.net/BasicClothing_page1.php

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

I hope to have time to learn to rig one day for my personal use

But it wont be clothing it will be GUNDAMS!!

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

I've been comtemplating making some sort of Mech, but haven't decided on anything yet. design ideas would be nice :o)

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: What if I wanted to create my own clothes?