when would a model become my own?

I have a model of a train paid for.

I have taken said model and chopped it up.into about 8 sections. removed parts of the body. copied other parts and added them. changed the scale of others.

so how much do I have to change to make it my own to do with as I wish,

with out sued?

or would I have to start all over. even if I liked the shape so much that if I did start over it looked like the first one after I had finished chopping?

A model is your own when:

1. You have created it from the ground up, e.g., from nothing.

2. It does not contain any mesh (or parts of) someone else's creation.

3. You have not duplicated any part of another model, including textures, bump maps, etc.

I believe that covers it but I may have left something out, sooooo .... :blink:

re: " ... start all over ..." ? ... In a word, .............. Yes! :biggrin:

Then, you can claim it as "yours."

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

I think that you would have to change it so much (real modeling not cosmetic changes) that it would be faster to model it from scratch.

Quote - when would a model become my own?

I have a model of a train paid for.

I have taken said model and chopped it up.into about 8 sections. removed parts of the body. copied other parts and added them. changed the scale of others.

so how much do I have to change to make it my own to do with as I wish,

with out sued?

or would I have to start all over. even if I liked the shape so much that if I did start over it looked like the first one after I had finished chopping?

Answer:  NEVER.  This is plainly a derivative work.

I'm sorry to say that they are right.

If any a model holds even just the smallest piece of anouther persons creation you can not refer to it as your own. If you are looking at adjusting a model severly and then trying to sell it under your own name you will get a lot of hate mail..

however.. If you upgrade the model with new add-ons or textures then you can sell only the parts/textures you have desighned for that model but not the model itself..

These days it is just a lot easier to start from scratch and build it from the floor up as I do.

Dr. Geep has it covered.  It becomes yours only if you create it from scratch.

 model creator may allow redistrib. of some mod. as rte file; recipients own creator's file prior to receiving the distrib.

As stated above - and for the record - changing something, no matter how much does not give you the right to claim it as your own work.

There's a myth (still) circulating that you are allowed to incorporate 10% of someone else's work in your own stuff.  It's incorrect.  The actual amount is 0%.

MissNancy is also correct, in that some (actually very few) people allow you to modify things and distribute them. One case that I can think of at the top of my head, is the generic Quick suits/dresses/shirts/coats at:

http://www.morphography.uk.vu/

Those can be altered to your liking and used however you wish. That was the whole intention of those models though, to give people a clothing starting point. Most other models, however, you can't do such a thing.

BUT, say you create something cool that goes with someone else's model. You CAN save that as a smart-prop for it and distribute the hell out of it. You made it, even if it is for someone else's original model. Just don't try and distribute the original model with your addition, remember to just post a link to what it goes with.

Edit: That 10% myth is actually true, just not for 3D modeling. It works for recipes, and some other products you find in stores. I know of a company that orders a certain popular brand of picante sauce, they add a few of their ingredients, put it in their jars with their labels, and sell it commercially. So yes, the 10% rule does apply somewhere, just not in the 3D world.

Quote - There's a myth (still) circulating that you are allowed to incorporate 10% of someone else's work in your own stuff.  It's incorrect.  The actual amount is 0%.

Just so:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch

Some loudmouth will probably come along and argue against this, but do not listen to such people as they are stupid and wrong.

Quote - Edit: That 10% myth is actually true, just not for 3D modeling. It works for recipes, and some other products you find in stores. I know of a company that orders a certain popular brand of picante sauce, they add a few of their ingredients, put it in their jars with their labels, and sell it commercially. So yes, the 10% rule does apply somewhere, just not in the 3D world.

It's not true in any aspect of copyright law.  Food recipes and formulae are generally considered trade secrets and have little to do with how copyrights are handled.  Aside from that, simply mixing food products together and reselling them doesn't actually have anything to do with either, it has to do with whether it's legally okay to resell that food item.  Likely that example of yours involves some form of permit from a government agency (USDA I suppose) and permission from the original manufacturer.

In copyright context, any derivative work requires permission, there is no percentage rule.  The only exception is "fair use", and resale or free redistribution definitely does not qualify as "fair use".  Read:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html (fair use in general)

ok, so using a food reference doesn't really apply to copyrights. I was only using it as an example where one company took a product, added to it, and resell it. Kinda the same, but still different.

I DO agree with you though, I thought it was kinda F'ed up when I found out that's what the company did to make their salsa.

I take pjz99's point of view.

1. For the first, if you look at CURRENT PRACTICE in courts all over the world, it IS allowed to use small insignifant parts of other's work.

2. For the second, any mesh can easely be retopologized in 5-10 min. Then its yours.

It is always good to know what you are talking about.

There seems to be some confusion here as to if he is asking when a derivative work is ethically an original work (never), ...and when a court might find damages to the original author (sometimes, depending on the nature and extent of the usage of the original author’s works).

It might also be fruitful to discuss "which direction are the copyright laws going?"

After all "Fair Use" were being practiced for many years before it was written into law..there are many  people today who claim that the current copyright laws benefite the big companies, instead of the common man..

In that context it might be interesting to think about that Japan is considering to change the law so that you are only eligible to compensation if you can PROVE  that you lost money by the act.

I've edited/fixed plenty of meshes of models others have created.  But I've never thought of any of the meshes as being mine or my own.  I've only thought of the meshes as being just fixed.

SoulTaker,

Let us be practical. Of course it is inefficient that millions of users all over the world recreate the same simple stuff over and over again, reinventing the wheel.

If you don't know how to retopology, or don't have the right tools, do like this,

1. Make your derivative, nobody is going to care about what you do in your own home.

2. When finished, maybe 70 % is your work and 30 % the orginator's.

3. Then replace the orginal mesh that is left with you own. It is easier to do 30 % than 100 %!

Also remember that there are millions of models in 3D warehouse that is completly free, even to sell and distribute.

If you plan to edit something for personal use, there's not really anything anyone can do to stop you, but, if you plan to redistribute in any way, remember the community of people you're in.  Most modelling artists watch releases (freebies and for sale) like a hawk, looking for something similar to theirs.  If even so much as 10 facets line up perfectly, you may not be in a legal quagmire, but you will be dragged through the mud, verbally and in screenshot form.

You could still be sued on top of that, should the artist in question have the  money to do so.  They don't have to win the lawsuit in order to bankrupt you with legal fees.

Quote - It might also be fruitful to discuss "which direction are the copyright laws going?"

No it wouldn't.  Really, read the applicable copyright law.  The stuff is not ambiguous. 

A derivative is something that comes from modification of an existing product. Copyright has nothing to do with it. The Content you purchase is Licensed to you for your use and by accepting the License, you agree not to use any portion of the model, or derivatives of the model in any redistributed format. (Period)

Quote - You could still be sued on top of that, should the artist in question have the  money to do so.  They don't have to win the lawsuit in order to bankrupt you with legal fees.

In the US, this would only apply if the copyright is registered, which most people do not do, assuming that because copyright is automatic, registration is unecessary.  Registration of a copyright is required in order for a U.S. citizen or resident to file suit for infringement.  Placing your own statement "copyright 2011" within the file or metadata does not constitute registration.  Actually, the copyright office has streamlined the registration process and it can be completed on line.  Naturally, there is a fee.

Klebnor

Yup, and all you have to do is register your copyright, then file the lawsuit.  However, your copyright BEGINS at the moment of creation, not at the moment of filing, and the law takes that into account. 

pjz99, "read the applicable copyright law.."

That I have done many times. No it is you who need to read about the "Common law" system used in US and in the UK Commonwealth Countries. In our last discussion you were the expert, now I am the expert and have in fact written a treatise about copyright.

If you think it is too much work to read, use modern common sense and logic. If it is as you say how is it the "Fair Use" was practiced long before it was writtin into a law?

?

Before a fight ensues, let me point out, Vintorix, that many times our own copyright agents have, in the past, pointed out where your arguments are wrong or not wholly true, at least in the US.  Repeating an argument over and over does not increase it's truth, no matter how many times you repeat it.

I think, for the most part, that SoulTaker's question has been answered, so if you guys want to argue, by all means, do so, but take it to sitemail.

JenX,

I have no more to argue, as I know I'm right. You must understand the common law system to have on opinion in this matter. I am backing out.  Still this thread has given better information to both beginners and others alike than most threads here about the matter.

Going back to the original question posed:

when would a model become my own?

The answer is obvious ... when you have wined and dined her and she follows you home.

Quote -  

pjz99, "read the applicable copyright law.."

That I have done many times. No it is you who need to read about the "Common law" system used in US and in the UK Commonwealth Countries. In our last discussion you were the expert, now I am the expert and have in fact written a treatise about copyright.

If you think it is too much work to read, use modern common sense and logic. If it is as you say how is it the "Fair Use" was practiced long before it was writtin into a law?

?

"Common law" is state.  Fair Use Doctrine is federal.  Two different court systems.

Quote - Going back to the original question posed:

when would a model become my own?

The answer is obvious ... when you have wined and dined her and she follows you home.

Purr-feck !!! ...................... Meow ...

I got a question...How long did it take rework the model?  How long would it take for you to create your own model from scratch?

Quote - If you think it is too much work to read, ...

Your wonderful and amazing opinions aside, the language of copyright law is very simple and very clear.  I encourage you to read it more until the very simple and very clear meaning gets through.  If you just don't like how copyright law works, think it sucks and choose not to follow it, fine, congratulations, but seriously the law is not ambiguous.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

"Fair use"...

Not a worldwide law, in fact, not really a law at all.  It can be used as a defense in a copyright claim but of itself grants no rights to anything.  Copyright still belongs to the owner.

The proposed changes to US copyright law will, if anything, make the situation better for businesses and worse for individuals.  Most people would like to keep things the way they are.

And furthermore...

If it's allowable to use a portion of something, how come aleknest got into hot water for using the feet from one model for his own?  Should he have used half a foot?  A toe?  A toenail?  In fact, another person did something similar at RDNA with the figure they were selling and it also happened here with Renda.  So, all these incidents were handled wrongly?

Also, if you can alter the topology of a model to make it your own, by which it's yours to sell or give away legally, please do so with one of the DAZ people.  Go on, I dare you.  I double dare you.

TBH if you're competent to redo the topology of someone else's model, then you're MORE THAN COMPETENT to do an original one yourself with less effort.  I've heard this notion repeated a few times and it's a retarded idea.

I believe the correct construction is "I double dog dare you".

Although ... now that I think about it, that might be copyrighted by Jean Shepherd.

Klebnor

I am sorry I cannot answer you but if I do jenX will close down the thread immediatly. I guess I should be thankful for experiencing a small taste of how it was to live in the Sovjet Union under the cold war!

Quote - I believe the correct construction is "I double dog dare you".

Never seen Pulp Fiction?

Yes, but I've also seen A Christmas Story.

Tongue on flag pole?

Hmmm, perhaps I'll have a Royale with cheese for lunch.

Regards,

Klebnor

Hmmm, perhaps I'll have a Royale with cheese for lunch.

Mmmm,  sounds good!  BTW what is a Royal?

Royale with cheese = quarter pounder with cheese, in France.

Pulp Fiction / metric system reference.

Quote - Hmmm, perhaps I'll have a Royale with cheese for lunch.

Mmmm,  sounds good!  BTW what is a Royal?

A Quarter Pounder with cheese.

Laurie

A quarter pounder!

Excellent!  Did you get french fries with that?  Wait a minute...what do they call french fries in France?

Pommes Frittes

And they put mayonaise on them !!!!!!!

Pommes Frittes

And they put mayonaise on them !!!!!!!

Mmmm...Can they super size 'em?

Even a  complete retopo using 3D Coat or Silo2 Might get you in trouble in this community or at the very least tarnish you as a filthy "thief" in the various Forums.
Did Not Daz  Kill the original Alexa1 Because  it copied the vertice arrangement of
the original "GIRL" ( Koosens version)???

Quote - Even a  complete retopo using 3D Coat or Silo2 Might get you in trouble in this community or at the very least tarnish you as a filthy "thief" in the various Forums.
Did Not Daz  Kill the original Alexa1 Because  it copied the vertice arrangement of
the original "GIRL" ( Koosens version)???

Something like that.  IIRC, the creator (again, aleknest) used Girl's head as reference for modelling.  Around the same time, 3DUniverse withdrew and remodelled one of their figures because it had a remarkable similarity to Girl.

Quote - Pommes Frittes

And they put mayonaise on them !!!!!!!

Nope, that's in the Netherlands.

the daz girl model also seemed like it was based on a porno cartoon character by some french or belgian artist (can't recall name).  they never clarified if that artist got royalties or credit IIRC.  I also never understood why they put tomato sauce on their french fries.  I tried asking one of them and he said that's the way his pappy done it.  it would be better to skip the fries IMVHO, as they go straight to the abdominal fat AFAIK.

Brits usually put vinegar and/or tomato sauce on fries.  Mayo on fries is just plain weird but a friend in Den Haag likes 'em that way.

Actually, I've seen it (mayo) done throughout the benelux, can't swear to France - I tend to avoid it when possible.  Definitely the preference in Maastricht, ketchup receives strange looks.

Of course, it could be the coffee shop smoking clouds my perception.

Skunk, anyone?

Klebnor

Quote - Brits usually put vinegar and/or tomato sauce on fries.  Mayo on fries is just plain weird but a friend in Den Haag likes 'em that way.

Wut?

no Salad Cream with chips? trust me.... thats heaven..... oh for the love of Salad Cream Sandwhiches....

Retopo(UGH!)...A figure has to have 44 animation edgeloops.  Best to start with a rig of primitives then add your animation edgeloops.

Who is Alexa1?

Vinegar sauce on fries... Mmmm...I really miss Arthur Treachers Fish an' Chips.

Your right them #$%&* fries raised me from a 34" waist to a 38".