Folks, I appreciate the time and work involved in making and marketing or giving away props, figures, textures and such.  But please, no more !!!!! in front of every name of folders, textures, objects, props and characters!  It really is time consuming to undo this into some sensible scheme in my runtime.

And.... Thank you!

o.k.

sic scribere, sic facere !!!!!

Not going to happen. We have complained about this for years. Unless the marketplace inforces this to not happen it will continue forever. Blame DAZ. IIRC they were the ones that started it. Or took advantage of it the most. Now you see so many merchants that want to be on top.

I pretty much have most of those that do it on my black list. Yes I have a long list.

I also got frustrated by this. Now I extract all my stuff to a desktop folder, do the renaming there before I just drag it over into my runtime. Its a lot easier that way rather than having to search in my runtime for the files for renaming. Also I sought by date so you know the latest files in each catagory is always at the top of the list.

My Renderosity Store

Add me to the list of people who hate it.  I never do it with my stuff; I figure people are bright enough to find the folders without my resorting to cheap tricks.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I blame the Yahoo! internet search company !!!!! (sic)

Poser 11 , 180Gb in 8 Runtimes, PaintShop Pro 9
Windows 7 64 bit, Avast AV, Comodo Firewall
Intel Q9550 Quad Core cpu,  16Gb RAM, 250Gb + 250Gb +160Gb HD, GeForce GTX 1060

Blame lazy merchants.

I think it started out so their working dir would sort to the top while working and packaging it.  Some fix it.  Some blow it off as the end user's problem.

I always install to an empty folder and then drag the stuff to my runtime where I want it anyway and that is when I rename it.

Its been going on for nearly 2 decades.  Its not gonna stop no matter how much you bitch.

I usually just bite the bullet and rename the folders as I see fit, so things fit in a proper alphabetical order.. I do agree though that it's really bad practice to start folders and names with !!! and who knows what else.

can someone show me what this is about. what marketing?

I hope I don't get creamed for this but,  --echoing Grappo--

...what all the hoopla is (with good reason) the merchants adding exclamation points, double colons, underscores into folders in Libraries (Pose Files), and Textures that are not really needed. 

ex.: !!!JartzV4!!! on the Pose library when in fact it would just simply be: Jartz V4 without the (!!!).

For the life of me, I don't understand it either.  Whether it's business practice or not.

There you have it.

I too was bewildered with the original post.  At first, I thought it was all about the flooding of texture sets and such, but...

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Asus N50-600 - Intel Core i5-8400 CPU @ 2.80GHz · Windows 10 Home/11 upgrade 64-bit · 16GB DDR4 RAM · 1TB SSD and 1TB HDD; Graphics: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 1060 - 6GB GDDR5 VRAM; Software: Poser Pro 11x

Quote - Its been going on for nearly 2 decades.  Its not gonna stop no matter how much you bitch.

Been going on at least as long as telephone directories, if not longer- think AAA Cabs. These days to get in first with adverts/listings you have to pay Google a lot of money :)

Poser 11 , 180Gb in 8 Runtimes, PaintShop Pro 9
Windows 7 64 bit, Avast AV, Comodo Firewall
Intel Q9550 Quad Core cpu,  16Gb RAM, 250Gb + 250Gb +160Gb HD, GeForce GTX 1060

It is especially annoying in the geometries folder to have !!!!MyFreeToys!!!! then having to change this to MyFreeToys or better, GeegeesFreeToys means changing within the files that reference the object files within that folder.  That is what I have been doing for hours, so pardon if I sound frantic!

I'm very new to poser and when i realized all the free and paid runtime files i'd been amassing were so disorganized with underscores and exlamations...it was already too late.

 

Now i guess i'll have to spend a day renaming everything from scratch. :(

Lol I took a day off from work to do that. The only folder that I haven't touched is my props folder. Its a mess. Now I have to open the charecter or pz3 files to see what props match it. Things for clothing and v4 are mixed with things from scenes...its quite dawnting. The same goes for my materials folder. Why cant people just use the same name for each folder in each catagory? Nowadays the products I've purchased do that, but occasionally you get the odd one that still has various names.

My Renderosity Store

Quote - I think it started out so their working dir would sort to the top while working and packaging it.  Some fix it.  Some blow it off as the end user's problem.

Actually, I think it was an underhanded means of getting around the Poser 4 (and I presume, earlier) limit of how many folders you could have in each section of the library before it wouldn't let you access any more. Particularly with the hack of using pose files to apply materials causing the Pose folder to fill up. Another hack was renaming extensions and placing MAT poses in the Camera folder.

Putting the various symbols in front of the name ensured that the folder would be placed at the top of the list, and this someone else's folder would be made inaccessible.

 

However, with Poser 5 introducing the ability to have multiple runtimes, there is no need to do that any more, and the practice really, really needs to die.

________________________________________________________________

If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

Since I always rename and reorganize files anyway, it really doesn't bother me. A good file renaming utility makes it easier, but that's just my view. I'm irritated by all the .DS_Store and thumbs.db files that litter things. The former are useless on a PC and the latter are just useless. Still, as the OP says, it takes a lot of time and effort to produce things and then give them away, so I figure I can invest a little time and effort to fix them up to suit my tastes :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

If I may take this idea a step further.  I archive files by keeping the original zip, but a lot of zip files are poorly named. For example "V4shirt" zip name is "xyz.zip".

Also I have some older files, mostly freebies of clothes that I have no idea what figure they go to because the creator neglected to mention that in the read me! Probably I should not complain about that since they were freebies ^ ^;

I agree with a lot of the above about file and folder naming, but this is not the most heinous of the various 'crimes' that vendors - not just here, but all the other sites - perpetrate. I'm going to indulge myself by briefly running through some of the gripes I have.

1. Textures. For !*@'s sake vendors, get your monitors properly set up and calibrated. Skin textures can vary from screaming blue to bright red. It's not like the internet has a shortage of images you could use for reference. Hint: if they look wrong on your monitor, it's probably your monitor that's wrong.

2. Weird shader nodes on hair. Hair does not glow, so please stop using anything in the ambient and translucence nodes: diffuse, transparency and a bit of specular are fine, anything else is overkill, and just plain WRONG in the context of Poser 8 / PoserPro 2010 using IDL.

3. Expressions and Poses: I've bought a few of these recently and was surprised that the expressions reset all the custom shaping morphs to zero - that's just plain sloppy. And the same with poses that move the character back to default loading position (X, Y and Z trans = zero) and / or reset the shaping morphs back to zero.

Every damned thing I buy I have to test and, usually, correct: it's rare that something's put together properly and 'just works'.

OK, rant over.

---

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Quote - > Quote - Its been going on for nearly 2 decades.  Its not gonna stop no matter how much you bitch.

Been going on at least as long as telephone directories, if not longer- think AAA Cabs. These days to get in first with adverts/listings you have to pay Google a lot of money :)

That is completely irrelevant.  Sure for a phone book but for a poser runtime,  BS.  There is no marketing involved.  You ALREADY bought the product.

I had asked many years ago why a certain merchant had done that and she told me that she named it that so it sorted to the top in her runtime while developing the product.  This, of course was Poser3/4 times where multiple runtimes were not an option.  Then, to a certain degree, it made sence.  I also asked why it didn't get renamed prior to packaging and again, it was explained that it was an oversite.  Eventually most of her products became packaged without the !!'s but, sometimes, even today, they appear.

With today's versions of poser there is NO EXCUSE any longer.  All versions of poser now allow multiple runtimes and so does DS.  Setting up a runtime for a product should be the FIRST STEP and there is no need for the !!'s any more.  NOW, its habit.  NOW its lazyness.

Decades ago, ok, maybe some use.  Today?  No.  Not any more.

I often wonder how much time we all waste fighting with this mess when we should be making cool pictures...

I think the whole sloppy/inconsiderate naming thing started with the Poser and DAZ developers themselves. The inconsistencies start with the naming of the basic library categories (Figures, Expressions etc) not matching their corresponding folders (Character, Faces etc) and then it all gets worse from there. In Poser7 they started putting conforming clothes in the Props area, I don't know if they still do it, and fancy hair in the figures area. Hair is hair, for crying out loud, why can't it all be in one place?

If you install something directly into your runtime you might never see it again, its parts are scattered forever in obscure and unlikely corners of your runtime because of stupid file naming.

The inconsistent naming of files and folders really drives me crazy when I'm trying to find a texture or obj to work on it. That started with early versions of Poser, where the geometry file and folder names bore no resemblance at all to the names of the items in the library browser. Every version seems to get worse and DAZ does it too.

Many of the community content creators seem to be competing to see who can make the deepest folder trees for the simplest products. A simple item doesn't need 5 sub-sub-sub-folders, I don't care who you are. And if you are going the complex folder route, be consistent from one product to the next. Otherwise I get one folder tree called "kewl productions" with a hat in it, and another whole tree called "kewl-productions" with a vest at the end of it. The 2 products should have ended up in the same place, but because of your sloppiness every customer has cleanup work to do.

Quote - I often wonder how much time we all waste fighting with this mess when we should be making cool pictures...

I think the whole sloppy/inconsiderate naming thing started with the Poser and DAZ developers themselves. The inconsistencies start with the naming of the basic library categories (Figures, Expressions etc) not matching their corresponding folders (Character, Faces etc) and then it all gets worse from there. In Poser7 they started putting conforming clothes in the Props area, I don't know if they still do it, and fancy hair in the figures area. Hair is hair, for crying out loud, why can't it all be in one place?

They changed what they call Faces and Figures a few versions back.  For compatibility, they left the folder names the same but only changed the titles in the library,  And it makes sense to do it that way.  Why they changed the titles, who the hell knows.

Because its not.

Conforming clothes are FIGURES, they have bones.  Dynamic clothes are PROPS, static, unboned objects.

No, hair is not always hair.  True hair is an auto-parenting prop really.  It has no bones and it is closer to a prop than anything.  Some hair is not really hair (though, by a mesh it looks like it).  Many modern hair items are really FIGURES.  Like conforming clothes, they have bones and are posable.  These types of hair are not the same as the true hair props.

Currently, Poser requires the different types of items to be in their respective folders.  WHY this is so today I don't know.  All it has to do is look at the file extension and it will know what it is.  I see NO reason why a conforming clothing item can't be in the same HD folder as a dynamic dress.  The only reasion I would not do it is to distinguish conforming from dynamic.

Quote - Currently, Poser requires the different types of items to be in their respective folders.  WHY this is so today I don't know.  All it has to do is look at the file extension and it will know what it is. 

That's what I'm getting at. Only .hr2 files will show up in the hair browser, only pp2 files will show up in props, only cr2 in figures and so on. The browser itself is picky about extensions, but Poser itself isn't. You can change any poser file extension to any other extension and it won't change the way it works - you'll have to move it to the relevant folder so you can see it to select it, but vicky renamed to hr2 will load from the hair folder or renamed to pp2 will load from the props window, once she's loaded she's the same old vicky.

That's what Poser did with, say, the P6 clothes. They gave everythingf a pp2 (ppz actually) extension and stuck it in the props folder, conforming and dynamic alike. Once you load, say, james's jacket from Props it behaves as a figure, you can't save it back to Props because it is a figure.

Same for hair. Rename a conforming hair figure to .hr2 and you can put it with the hair props. Sure, you'd have to remember to 'conform to', just as you now have to do with James's jacket 'prop'.

We should make a **Quality Control Checklis**t that we can edit and stickied.

We will see change!

 

YES WE CAN!

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

Pfttt!!! Much ado about nothing!

Besides the !!!!!!!!!!!!! issue!!!. The one that drives me up the wall is you are in a folder as an example of a character named Elizabeth (nice long name to start with). OK so we know where we are right. So the vendor names the pz2 something line !1 - Elizabeth - Mat - Lips-Red 01

 

Geesh we are in the Elizabeth folder, and if you want to group all the lip mat pose together the call them lips01, lips02, etc.. Not a name that shows up in library that is wider then the icon it goes under!!!!!!!!! an a few more to make my point!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - Currently, Poser requires the different types of items to be in their respective folders. 

What version of Poser are you using? I'm using P8 and I don't have that problem.

I gave up on the default installations and started using my own approach. Characters go in the Characters folder along with their mats, poses, props and anything else that was built specifically for the figure. Hair goes in the Hair folder regardless of what type of file it is. If it's hair, it goes in the Hair folder. Clothing whether conforming or dynamic, goes in the Materials folder.

Quote - Conforming clothes are FIGURES, they have bones.  Dynamic clothes are PROPS, static, unboned objects. No, hair is not always hair.  True hair is an auto-parenting prop really.  It has no bones and it is closer to a prop than anything.  Some hair is not really hair (though, by a mesh it looks like it).  Many modern hair items are really FIGURES.  Like conforming clothes, they have bones and are posable.  These types of hair are not the same as the true hair props.

All of which is no doubt true and of great importance to developers and vendors, but not to me. I am a user, not a developer. When I want to add hair to a figure, my primary consideration is finding hair that looks right. A secondary consideration might be the kind of file it is. 

Software interfaces should be designed with the user in mind, and, if at all possible, the interface should not be designed by the same people writing the code, because what you get is what you see with Poser - an interface designed from the developer's point of view.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

It is somewhat annoying, I admit.  However, I always rename the folders in the main library folders anyway, and I don't often go looking for the texture maps or geometry files, so it doesn't really bother me all that much.

What really bugs me are the thumbs.db files and .DS_store files that are often left in the zip.  Quite often 1 per folder, which can sometimes result in dozens of files adding bulk to the zip.  IMHO part of beta testing is taking notice of that kind of stuff, and if you beta test and neglect to bring that to the vendors attention so it can be fixed, then you really have no business beta testing.

I made a thread about it here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3676402

Note:  the word "you" is not directed to any one person, it is used in the general sense.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I wonder if the problem with thumbs.db files and .DS_store is due to people not having "show all hidden folders" turned on. So they don't even know they are there.

"What really bugs me are the thumbs.db files..."

That reminds me. Earlier this week I did a search for thumbs.db on my "new" computer which is about 1 1/2 years old and deleted those files. It was abut 400mb worth O.O

@ SteveJax - Admittedly, not of earth shattering importance but it's a problem many Poser users dislike and have done for a long time.  If - like me - you install a lot of stuff at one go, it's easy to spend hours reorganizing.  All of which takes away from actually using the damn things.  Not good; vendors should make things as straightforward to use as possible.

@ grichter, re long MAT names - Sometimes it's hard to give a MAT a meaningful (ie useful) name and keep it short enough to be seen in Poser's library.  I wish the library view would allow for text to scroll onto a new line, or even two.

@ Acadia, Tashar & jerr - AFAIK, thumbs.db is present when a person has Thumbnail view enabled in Windows and checks the "cache thumbnail" option.  Since I always have List view, I never have that problem, except for clearing out other people's thumbs.db.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

That's what I was talking about cleaning others. Me, I have thumbs enabled so I can see the textures before loading or working on something.

Quote - @ SteveJax - Admittedly, not of earth shattering importance but it's a problem many Poser users dislike and have done for a long time.  If - like me - you install a lot of stuff at one go, it's easy to spend hours reorganizing.  All of which takes away from actually using the damn things.  Not good; vendors should make things as straightforward to use as possible.

Well to me it doesn't matter really what they do because anything that exists under :Runtime:Libraries: is going to end up being reoganised/renamed/relocated beyond recognition by me anyway and I never touch :runtime:Geometries: or :Runtime:Textures:

 

Quote - Every damned thing I buy I have to test and, usually, correct: it's rare that something's put together properly and 'just works'.

OK, rant over.

Ya' know, it would really help if people would quit giving 5-star ratings to every single stinkin' product that comes along. I'm sure the vendors appreciate all the warm fuzzies, but I bet they would also appreciate some constructive criticism. Buyers would also like to know of any problems with a product, but I rarely see anything but platitudes.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

Quote - but I bet they would also appreciate some constructive criticism. Buyers would also like to know of any problems with a product, but I rarely see anything but platitudes.

 

You would think that they would appreciate the truth. However, that is not always the case. I've given less than 5 star ratings and I've given less than warm fuzzy reviews when I felt the product deserved it. However, I can tell you that it was not always met with acceptance, and in fact in some cases the vendor was downright nasty to me in site mail.

Most of the time I just don't bother to make comments on products anymore.

I liked Poser Pros way of rating a product. You gave it a star rating, no comments and that was it. I don't even think the vendor knew who gave what rating.

Ratings should be annonymous to protect the buyer. Annonymity would more than likely result in more honest opinions by buyers.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - > Quote - but I bet they would also appreciate some constructive criticism. Buyers would also like to know of any problems with a product, but I rarely see anything but platitudes.

 You would think that they would appreciate the truth. However, that is not always the case. I've given less than 5 star ratings and I've given less than warm fuzzy reviews when I felt the product deserved it. However, I can tell you that it was not always met with acceptance, and in fact in some cases the vendor was downright nasty to me in site mail.

I likedRatings should be annonymous to protect the buyer. Annonymity would more than likely result in more honest opinions by buyers.

I have had them site mail me too. A couple were extremely psycho about it. One just because I said it's was something I didn't have any use for it. It was just another something that was already to many of in a bundle. If I had sent them the same mail they sent me. I would have been banned. But not merchants. To many don't take the lack of sugar well.

I don't think the ratings would change much. To many friends/fans rate them. You even see ratings and comments before the paint has dried. Even ratings of how great something is and they have not even bought it yet.

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned was the fact that Poser would always jump to the top of the list of folders. Ergo, if your stuff is at the top, it's going to get used more, unless you actually scroll down to find what you want. Chances are, the stuff you wind up using the most would be on top.

Or at least in older versions of Poser...;)

In my tiny amount of freebies, I named my folder Pakled!!!, just to poke fun at the whole concept...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote -  

@ grichter, re long MAT names - Sometimes it's hard to give a MAT a meaningful (ie useful) name and keep it short enough to be seen in Poser's library.  I wish the library view would allow for text to scroll onto a new line, or even two.

 

 

I have no problem if the name is informative. What I am talking about is name bloating that serves no purpose other then make it difficult to read in the library.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - You would think that they would appreciate the truth. However, that is not always the case. I've given less than 5 star ratings and I've given less than warm fuzzy reviews when I felt the product deserved it. However, I can tell you that it was not always met with acceptance, and in fact in some cases the vendor was downright nasty to me in site mail.

I have had exactly the same experience.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I have given up contacting vendors about errors and problems in their products because most of the time they take forever to reply and either are not aware that something is a problem (because it 'works fine in Poser 5' to quote one reply I got last year) or don't know how to fix it - I've had one instance where I've sent the vendor corrected versions of their own pose files and been asked 'how did you do that?'.

Having said that, there are vendors who's stuff I buy whether I need it or not, because I know they're good and if there is any sort of problem they'll appreciate the feedback and do something constructive about it.

---

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Quote - Having said that, there are vendors who's stuff I buy whether I need it or not, because I know they're good and if there is any sort of problem they'll appreciate the feedback and do something constructive about it.

If you don't mind, will you please share those vendors with the rest of us.

Actually this ties into a proposal I made in another thread about having a "Poser Certification" for products that meet certain criteria. The idea is that Smith Micro or Renderocity or me or you or anyone should come up with a set of guidelines that any product should meet before being offered to the public. This might include things like a standard naming convention and directory setup, specific information in the ReadMe file, and of course it should be debugged and do what it claims to do. Products that meet the criteria get to carry the "Poser Certification Logo", and those that don't can still be sold just as they are now.

In the meantime, perhaps we can start with a list of merchants that consistently deliver quality products.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

You start making lists and those that don't have the fan base will get left out even if they do just as good work. It has been tried and a lot of hurt/bad feelings. Which leads to nothing good.

Ya' know, I've noticed a distinct cultural shift here at Renderosity from what I'm used to. I come from the world of programming, but I suspect that most people here come from the world of fine arts, graphic design, photography, etc. Programmers as a group have inflated and fragile egos that get bruised easily enough, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone warn against an idea because it might hurt somebody's feelings.That's just not part of the culture.

I'm not saying one approach is better or worse; I'm just making an observation.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

When you have been here as long as some of us. You will see what happens. Some just say fine. They will not do any more. So all you have accomplished is less competition for the populars. From what I have seen over the years. Not all the populars are good, just popular and that lands them on the list.

Trust me, I don't really care about feelings much. I was just pointing oiut what happens when you start popularity lists. No matter the intentions. That is what they end up as.

I never get on the Popular lists! I'm too blunt.

Welcome to the club.

The unpopulars are more fun anyways.

Besides the !!!!! (which I also despise),  it would nice if vendors put their files under a folder with their name on it so I know who to credit on my renders and to find their files easily for correcting (a constant necessity because I use Daz Studio).

Example if vendor name FRED001 then I would expect the following:-

Runtime:Geometries:FRED001:productXYZ:product.obj

Runtime:Libraries:Props:FRED001:productXYZ:product.pp2

Runtime:Textures:FRED001:productXYZ:product.jpg

If the vendor are truely after more sales then having gallery credits by the artist (purchaser) is good advertising for future sales. And the best way to remind us artists (purchasers) to credit them is to have their products under a folder with their name so as to differentiate it from all the hundreds (maybe !!!!thousands!!!!) of folders in our runtime.

@LBA - that's more or less what I do with my products, except for the Libraries folders, which are named after the product itself.  All my textures and geometries sit in folders named SamTherapy, though.  

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Quote - Welcome to the club.

The unpopulars are more fun anyways.

So instead of creating a list of vendors that everybody likes, maybe we should create a list of unpopulars the vendors don't like, except for our money. I want in and nominate Steve and Tasher as co-club chairman.

 

I have had he same experience were I made a critical review of a product and got fried in the following reviews and or in site mails.

Lately, if I am impressed, really impressd with a product I will write a review. If I have a problem, bad file, etc. I fix it myself and move on and depending on the vendor notify them of the problem with the exact back-up details privately.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - Besides the !!!!! (which I also despise),  it would nice if vendors put their files under a folder with their name on it so I know who to credit on my renders and to find their files easily for correcting (a constant necessity because I use Daz Studio).

Example if vendor name FRED001 then I would expect the following:-

Runtime:Geometries:FRED001:productXYZ:product.obj

Runtime:Libraries:Props:FRED001:productXYZ:product.pp2

Runtime:Textures:FRED001:productXYZ:product.jpg

If the vendor are truely after more sales then having gallery credits by the artist (purchaser) is good advertising for future sales. And the best way to remind us artists (purchasers) to credit them is to have their products under a folder with their name so as to differentiate it from all the hundreds (maybe !!!!thousands!!!!) of folders in our runtime.

 

All I gotta say: been there, done this almost four years ago.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2697096

=====================================================

There's a rant I want to make.  And I know several of these things have been said before, but I'd like them in one place.

After I received Poser 7 when it came out, I started on a complete re-install of my downloaded content.  Still haven't gotten through half the V3 stuff yet, but I've been doing it slowly to organize the folders in (to me) a rational manner) in different runtimes, checking the references in each zip and exe to make sure the pointers are correct, so on and so forth.  And after you do a few hundred of them in a short period of time, you tend to notice the things that bother you.  It was in this spirit that the following was inspired.

Rule 1: You Are Not the Most Important Person In the World.

Naming the readme file "Readme" sort of assumes that it's the only file I'm going to have with that name, doesn't it?  Now, while I like your stuff (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it and downloaded it), that doesn't mean that you're the only person in the world whose product I'm going to buy, and as such, so that your Readme isn't overwritten by their Readme, wouldn't it make sense to give your Readme file, heck, your Readme folder, a name which logically connects it to the product you want me to read about?

Rule 2: I Am Not A Mindreader

In a similar note, if you want me to read your readme files, it might behoove you to place said files in a location where I would expect to find them.  Buried in the library folders is not where I expect to find them.  Placing them outside the Runtime folder, that's logical.

Rule 3: I Am Not Using Your Computer

Your Geometries folder might rest happily in C:Documents and Settings/user/MyPoserStuff.  Mine doesn't.

Rule 4: I Am Still Not Using Your Computer

Which makes it rather difficult when the product I bought from you includes a reference to a reflection map or a texture that's not part of your product but is on your computer.  And not mine.

Rule 5: I Will Decide What's Important on My Computer, Not You

Quick Quiz:  Naming a file "! ! ! ImNumberOne.pz2" to get it to the top of the list in the library is
a) Dumb
b) Annoying
c) Unnecessary, since the folder it's in should have a unique name anyway, right?
d) Make me want to track down the merchant and beat them over the head with a keyboard
e) All of the above

Now that isn't to say that using the exclamation mark to get something to the top a file isn't justified.  I like having the character inj and rem files right at the top.  But having EVERY SINGLE FILE in that character's folder having multiple exclamation marks in front of it is stupid.

Rule 6: Remember That I Might Actually Buy Other Stuff From You

So when all your mat files or your pose files for all your products are named creatively, you know, like "01.pz2" and "02.pz2", and all your folders for different products also have the exact same name, one wonders if you only ever want any single person to only ever get a single one of your products so that they don't overwrite each other.

Rule 7: Just Because You Can Use Really Long Names Doesn't Mean You Have To

I mean, it's not that I don't get enjoyment out of looking at pose files and trying to figure out which one I want to use.  Who wouldn't want to joy of seeing two thumbnails in the library with the exact same truncated name underneath them and guessing which one is the one you want to use?

Rule 8: My Textures Folder Is Possibly More Complicated Than Yours

":skinbody.jpg" might be a perfectly valid reference in a cr2 or a mat file  for your apparently near-empty textures folder.  However, given that I'm likely to have about 3,122 files with that name, your folder in the Texture directory doesn't have a name I can easily find, your readme file is located in the Hands folder and doesn't tell me what your folder holding the textures is anyway, do not be surprised if people get somewhat annoyed.  See also Rules 3 and 4.

===============================================================

@ Keith - your list is superb.

I suggest you submit it to the PTB and ask them to make it part of the submission criteria.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Quote - > Quote - Welcome to the club.

The unpopulars are more fun anyways.

So instead of creating a list of vendors that everybody likes, maybe we should create a list of unpopulars the vendors don't like, except for our money. I want in and nominate Steve and Tasher as co-club chairman.

 

Though nominated I will not serve. I'm trying to be less unpoopular. :unsure:

Popular Unpopulars. Doesn't sound quite right does it. LOL

Quote - @ Keith - your list is superb.

I suggest you submit it to the PTB and ask them to make it part of the submission criteria.

PTB? What's that?

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

PTB = Powers That Be

...... Kendra

@SamTherapy - Thankyou for your efforts to help keep runtimes organised. I see it as a win-win senerio; the vendors help keep my runtime organised and I will remember to credit their products in my gallery.

@Keith - What a fantastic list!!!!!! (exclamations very appropriate in this instance. LOL).

 

BTW to others, I don't like to single out any vendors on some hit list. I think that's a bit extreme. Hopefully Rendo staff can mediate if there is too many complaints lodged to them against certain vendors/products.

I have communitated with only a few vendors and always had positive responces. Considering their products were made for Poser and not Daz Studio (as I said that's my 3D tool of choice) they have accomodated my feedback well.  A couple have even posted updates.

Vendors should keep the old marketing addage in mind; "Make customers happy and they tells their friends but make them unhappy and they tell the world". This is more true when you consider the power of the internet to create global communities AND I note from "artists on line" up top of Rendo's web page that I have never seen the number drop below 2000 AND has recently tripled to 6000!!!! (more appropiately placed exclamations. LOL).

 

Quote - One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned was the fact that Poser would always jump to the top of the list of folders. Ergo, if your stuff is at the top, it's going to get used more, unless you actually scroll down to find what you want. Chances are, the stuff you wind up using the most would be on top.

Or at least in older versions of Poser...;)

In my tiny amount of freebies, I named my folder Pakled!!!, just to poke fun at the whole concept...;)

 

Hehehe... ;D  I'm getting all kinds of ideas reading this thread...

My next freebie will have the following folder structure (for the 2 people stupid enough to download it):

Runtime:libraries:character: !!!!OMG Terrymcg is AWESOME!!!!

and

Runtime:libraries:Pose: !!!I ROCK!!!!!

Rest of the files will be in the folder:

Runtime: !!!!!!!!!!!!!

D'oh! Why do things that happen to stupid people keep happening to me?

@Terrymcg - LOL. Your comment cracks me up!!!!

Quote - BTW to others, I don't like to single out any vendors on some hit list. I think that's a bit extreme.

Hit list? What? There talking about an 'Angie’s List' Sort of list not a 'Berlin 1938' kind of list. There is nothing extreme about consumers banding together to better insure quality and professionalism. If some vendor produced a product with exceptional promotional images yet the product itself is actually crap, I'd like to know about it before I whip out the credit card, and given the fact that 5 stars are the all to constant rating, I would rather know what people like Samtherapy, Acadia and such others think about the product. That's not an extreme concept, it's a smart one. Maybe you don't like the concept or truly think that it is unnecessary but to call it a 'hit list' IS extreme and by default labels those who do support the concept as bad guys (i.e. those who support hit lists are often bad guys).

@ Terrymcg:  Don't forget the geometries folder so folks have to cut the durn !!!! from all the cr2s and other files.   That is what got me whining so in the first place :(

@Doran - Ok the term "hit list"is a bit extreme but honestly I couldn't think of another name for a group of people getting together to single out others. Having myself been bullied at school when very young strong emotions still haunt me.

If enougth customers lodge complaints to Rendo about a product or vendor then I'd thrust they will act. Hopefully act faster than they do in the galleries against nudity in thumbs; which is neck breaking fast. LOL.

Also customers have the Administration forums to also voice their dissatisfaction in. Worth checking out now and again. Some juicy stuff turns up there; even from vendors against other vendors.

Spiderman's Uncle "With great power comes great responsibility". Just be careful about your list, whatever you call it.

With which product sources does this problem most reside with?  I can understand freebies from ShareCG or similar being all over the board (like no runtime at all) since there is no QA process to get something published (that I know of), but doesn't Renderosity and Daz have a fairly stringent QA that could be leveraged to fix this?

With the exception of the common, most widely used packages, I generally build a fresh "project-specific" runtime whenever I start a new project.  That way I'm only presented with what I need and I can contain the "mess".  I also maintain the original product download in a very granular folder hierarchy that makes locating them much easier.  I'll also stick original zips or exe's in another archive named to match the exact product name and include some product shots for easy reference.   

I know this strategy wouldn't work for everyone but since I need to be able to account for every dollar spent, it works.  By the way, this problem isn't just a Poser problem. :)  It would seem that organization and art mix about as well as initiative and complacency.

@Andrew-DEC - No vendors names has been mentioned yet, which is a good thing.

One can't really raise an issue with freebies. They're free and so one has to just grin an bear it and maybe get their hands dirty fixing up the files. Actually I learnt a lot about Poser files and how Poser works by fixing up others freebies, and I can get about 90% of them to work in Daz Studio (my 3D tool of choice).

So the issues here are really about sold products where one would expect a bit more attention to detail and understanding of the structure of Runtimes.

The thread started with an issue about using exclamations !!!! in file/folder names (which I agree with). Then others added their issues, including yours truely (being human I naturally had to put my 2 cents worth into this mix). A list to single out vendors was suggested (make up your own title to the list) and I hope will not be implemented. And of coarse the thread sort of drifted about as we brain stormed.

Anyhoot I feel the core of the issues are really well summed up by Keith's excellent list (which should maybe be turned into a mantra for vendors, possibly as a post-it-note superglued to the foreheads of some vendors. LOL).

I wasn't looking for actual vendor names, but moreso the marketplaces that this sort of thing is deemed acceptable.  From what I've read DAZ can be quite particular about what gets published but I've not read anything regarding QA at other marketplaces to comment.  One would think that some general conventions around naming and folder structure (and of course if the darn thing even functions) could be added to said QA process, if it exists.  If not, then a non-profit, fan-run governing body could be established to provide an additional "Quality-Approved" certfication to their product.  It would be entirely voluntary for vendors to use obviously but is a little more official than just a white or black list of vendors.  Those vendors that care enough about selling quality products will submit their work for review to gain that certification.  That's the idea anyway.

Again, the better method would be for the marketplaces to add this sort of thing to their own QA checklist, but in the absence of that, perhaps a "Fan Approved" certification that a vendor could tote (even provide a logo for them to add to the product page) would be enough to sway behaviour towards using best practices.

@Andrew_DEC - Sorry for my missunderstanding. I remember suggestion a Quality system last year in the Adimistration forums. It was noted as a good idea but not sure if it was ever implemented.

One thing that has to be sorted out is what does "Quality" actually mean and what should it cover.

For example - I know professional artists want whopping huge texture files 2000x2000pixels and larger because of render quality on close up work. But for me a hobbiest I don't really care and such large texture files are a burden to my PC CPU/RAM/Video Card whatever.

So already a professional artist and a hobbiest are going to have different perceptions of Quality they want from a product.

Quote - So already a professional artist and a hobbiest are going to have different perceptions of Quality they want from a product.

Even as a hobbiest, I'm glad products give me the option of High Quality textures, which I can scale down myself if I don't need them. You can't scale up though.

 

Quote - Even as a hobbiest, I'm glad products give me the option of High Quality textures, which I can scale down myself if I don't need them. You can't scale up though.

True. I used a poor example.

Perhaps quality is a bad term to use here as I don't feel it's appropriate to circumvent the user review section.  Perhaps Compliance would be a better term.  Here's a quick example of things that a "certified" product would be checked against.

Items of Compliance

• Adhere to standard naming convention, both in file and folder (this would need to be clearly defined)
• Adhere to standard folder hierarchy, starting at Runtime
• No extraneous files within Runtime
• Readme includes all appropriate information pertaining to package
• Package generally works as it should (very light touch review like checking that poses don't wipe out morphs for instance)
• Zip names actually include the product name somewhere 

@Andrew-DEC - Good list. Short, simple and to the point. Point one was the issue that started this thread. All those exclamation marks !!!! should be thrown out or used very sparingly for specific files (such as INJ/REM as suggested by Kieth under Rule 5) . Also I like the list name change to "Compliance". It's less of a grey area than Quality.

I've been lobbying for a certification program for a while. It would be nice if SM or Renderocity took the lead, but anyone with a little more free time and ambition than I have could get it going. Just create a web site like "PoserCertification.org", list the criteria for certification, and start certifying. Some thoughts:

• Anyone could certify a product but you might want to limit it to official certifiers.
• Certification is a pass-fail thing - you either meet the criteria or you don't.
• The quality of the product is not an issue.
• Vendors who don't want to be certified or object to the idea can go about selling their products just as they do now.

I wonder if SM and sites like Renderosity realize how many potential clients and sales they are losing out on because of problems like those listed above. I know I gave up on Poser and Daz twice before slogging my way through the stinkin' swamp pit that passes for content management. It seems to me that it is in everyone's best interests to implement some set of basic standards.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

@ElZagna - Poser Debut & Daz Studio in Schools to get kids interested in / exposed to 3D creation (which is a fair size market interest now because of movies like Avatar). That would open up new market.

Of coarse they will have to be careful about content to kids (parents would be waving a big stick). You know how irresponsible & experimental kids can be. They should wait to become adults to become irresponsible and experimental like the rest of us. LOL.

May have to introduce ratings for content to kids just like movies, G, PG, M, R, XXX, WTF ;-)

:: shrug :: I dont see it as a big deal, TTTT. It's easy enough to rename things in the libraries, but since I work heavily with external RTs for each current project, it's kind of a non-issue for me. Annoying, but only until I take five seconds and change "!!!!!Hiro" to just plain ol' Hiro. I dont think it bothers him any. :-)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

@SeanMartin - In someways you are right and taken to the extreme one could say that all that we have been, all that we are, and all that we will ever be won't even rate an eye blink on the face of Eternity so it becomes meaningless to gripe about anything.

However I live in the momment, and each momment to the next momment is measured by the breath of Life I take inbetween. So those momments become precious to me not knowing when my last breath will be.

And those momments become wasted as I wade through the war of exlamation marks !!!! and bad content structure in my runtime. Actually it shouldn't be called a "runtime" folder anymore; SM should rename it to a "crawltime" folder.

BTW no angst is directed personnally; just venting my frustration, that's all.

Hmmmm...Reading what I just blurted out above; that's a good bit of prose.

I'm a poet and didn't know it. LOL.

Quote - I've been lobbying for a certification program for a while. It would be nice if SM or Renderocity took the lead, but anyone with a little more free time and ambition than I have could get it going. Just create a web site like "PoserCertification.org", list the criteria for certification, and start certifying. Some thoughts:

• Anyone could certify a product but you might want to limit it to official certifiers.
• Certification is a pass-fail thing - you either meet the criteria or you don't.
• The quality of the product is not an issue.
• Vendors who don't want to be certified or object to the idea can go about selling their products just as they do now.

Creating a site like the one quoted would set up an elitist caste system among Poser users and anyone with enough cash to throw at the certification site would get certified!

What? You think someone's going to start a certification.org site like the one above and do all that file checking and certifying for free? You must think Pie falls out of the sky!

 

*>> "Creating a site like the one quoted would set up an elitist caste system among Poser users and anyone with enough cash to throw at the certification site would get certified!"*If that's how you approach it, yes, it'll happen. But if it's a site where the QA is a little more ruthless so customers dont have to come back and tell the vendor or the vendor site, "Hey, didnt anyone see this in testing?", I could see a certification program as possibly a good thing.

Thing is, there are very few "professional" vendors in the Poserverse: most are hobbyists just looking to feed that Vicky monkey on their backs -- and as such, sometimes a few corners are cut just to get the product out the door. Most users these days seem to shrug their shoulders and say "Hey it only cost me a few bucks, I can fix it myself"... but when it comes to that happening from a upper echelon vendor, you have to wonder why fixing would be necessary for someone who, by now anyway, would know better.

I dont think this would be the kind of thing one could simply buy their way in. At least I would hope not.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Besides the !!!!! (which I also despise),  it would nice if vendors put their files under a folder with their name on it so I know who to credit on my renders and to find their files easily for correcting (a constant necessity because I use Daz Studio).

Example if vendor name FRED001 then I would expect the following:-

Runtime:Geometries:FRED001:productXYZ:product.obj

Runtime:Libraries:Props:FRED001:productXYZ:product.pp2

Runtime:Textures:FRED001:productXYZ:product.jpg

If the vendor are truely after more sales then having gallery credits by the artist (purchaser) is good advertising for future sales. And the best way to remind us artists (purchasers) to credit them is to have their products under a folder with their name so as to differentiate it from all the hundreds (maybe !!!!thousands!!!!) of folders in our runtime.

I agree and disagree.... Do the Geometries and Textures if you want, but do not do that in the Library Props, Figures, etc...

If I have Miki in a Scene and I go to the Pose Library looking for Poses (not Textures), I will not look in a Vendors Folder to see if it contains Poses or Morphs or MAT Poses

Better would be this...

Example if vendor name FRED001 then I would expect the following:-

Runtime:Geometries:FRED001:productXYZ:product.obj

Runtime:Libraries:Props:<Type of Prop (IE Car, Plant, etc..>: FRED001:productXYZ:product.pp2

Runtime:Textures:FRED001:productXYZ:product.jpg

While we are on the topic of naming folders... be consistant. If you start calling the Figure Folder by the Name of the Product, do so in the Pose, Material, Props, etc Folders. I hate having to play hunt and find to locate Materials, Fit Poses, etc.. in the Library because one is located in the Folder called "Cool Blue" in the Figures Library, but the rest are in Folders named "Look At Me, I Created Stuff" Folders in the Props, Poses, etc...

Also, do not use too generic of names.. Box.obj is used... if you create a new box, call it Box.obj  This goes for pants, shoes, etc....

On the topic of issues with packaging... Top Folder should be Runtime, not your Products Name for a Folder... it is a pain to add to a Library and I will never buy from you again.

Also, name your Zip File for the Product and if there is more than one file, name them all the same Starting with the name. I bought one product that never worked right when I got around to installing it because the product had three files... one was called (real names removed to protect the idiots) "Product A", the second was called "Product A 02", the third was called "03 Additional Files needed for the Item I created"

If you have more than one file, the first file should also indicate it.. Try

Product A 1of3, Product A 2of3, Product A 3of3

On MAT Poses... Poser 8 is now out... Poser 4 is older than any of my computers... Consider using the Material Room... so much cleaner. If you want it to work in DS too, make a DS Package. DS may have originally been designed to use Poser Content as is, but things have changed. There are differences in how the Material Values work between the two programs. Take the effort to make your product stand out.

ratscloset
aka John

Quote - >> "Creating a site like the one quoted would set up an elitist caste system among Poser users and anyone with enough cash to throw at the certification site would get certified!"

Quote - If that's how you approach it, yes, it'll happen. But if it's a site where the QA is a little more ruthless so customers dont have to come back and tell the vendor or the vendor site, "Hey, didnt anyone see this in testing?", I could see a certification program as possibly a good thing. Thing is, there are very few "professional" vendors in the Poserverse: most are hobbyists just looking to feed that Vicky monkey on their backs -- and as such, sometimes a few corners are cut just to get the product out the door. Most users these days seem to shrug their shoulders and say "Hey it only cost me a few bucks, I can fix it myself"... but when it comes to that happening from a upper echelon vendor, you have to wonder why fixing would be necessary for someone who, by now anyway, would know better.

I dont think this would be the kind of thing one could simply buy their way in. At least I would hope not.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that kind of world Sean. Just look at what you wrote. Most vendors in the Poser market really are just hobbiests who moved into semi professionalism to justify all the money they were spending on the hobby. Do you really think anyone opening a "Certifications" website would be doing it for altruistic reasons? Seriously?

First off it would be costing them just to host such a site. Then it would be costing them time to actually certify all of these items and probably cash if they had to pay someone else to certify items for them. It's just not the sort of thing you'll see going "Open Source". I'd love to see someone proove me wrong though.

 

My preferred runtime structures are here:

:Runtime:libraries:Character:People:DAZ:Mil1:

Mike
:Runtime:libraries:Character:People:DAZ:Mil2:

Vicky
......etcetra
:Runtime:libraries:Character:People:SmithMicro:Poser4:

Dork
:Runtime:libraries:Character:People:SmithMicro:Poser5:

Judy
:Runtime:libraries:Character:People:SmithMicro:G2:

Olivia
......etcetra
:Runtime:libraries:Character:Clothing:SmithMicro:Poser5:

Judy:Whoever:FancyDress
......etcetra
:runtime:libraries:Props:Clothing:SmithMicro:Poser5:

Judy:Whoever:FancyDress
......etcetra
:runtime:Libraries:Pose:Material Poses:Skin Textures:DAZ:Mil1:

Mike
:runtime:Libraries:Pose:Material Poses:Skin Textures:SmithMicro:Poser4:

Dork
......etcetra
:runtime:Libraries:Pose:MaterialPoses:clothing:SmithMicro:Poser5:

Judy:Whoever:Fancy
......etcetra

 

Quote - Creating a site like the one quoted would set up an elitist caste system among Poser users and anyone with enough cash to throw at the certification site would get certified!

You may have missed this bullet: "The quality of the product is not an issue."

The criteria for certification are pretty black and white (see the lists by Andrwe_DEC and Keith). If a vendor doesn't adhear to a naming convention, for example, how much do you think it would cost them to bribe a certifier, and how much do you think it would cost them to simply follow the guidelines? In my experience, most people are willing to follow a standard if they know what the stabdard is, even when they don't especially like it. I've heard the expression, "Any standard is better than no standard."

Quote - What? You think someone's going to start a certification.org site like the one above and do all that file checking and certifying for free? You must think Pie falls out of the sky!

Yep. Look at all the Wikis out there, and look at all the open source work being done. People do stuff like this all the time.

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OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

Quote - Actually it shouldn't be called a "runtime" folder anymore; SM should rename it to a "crawltime" folder.

Actually it should never have been called Runtime. "Runtime" has a specific technical meaning that is significant to the developers writing the code but is meaningless to the average Poser user. It should have been called "Content" or perhaps "!!!!!Content" ;)

@LBAMagic: I can easily see 3D grapics becoming the next big deal on web sites and advertising media, but for that to happen it will have to be much, much easier to use and much, much more stable.

There is another thread on this forum where people were talking about the idea of DAZ buying out Poser. I mentioned that my preference would be for someone like Adobe to snatch it up and intergrate it into their suite of tools. It will take a major software publisher with a solid understanding of what makes a good business model to bring Poser out of the hobbiest arena and turn it into a real tool that we can maybe start making some money out of.

Oh, yeah - that was a good piece of prose you wrote. **
**

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OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

>> "Do you really think anyone opening a "Certifications" website would be doing it for altruistic reasons?

Of course not. But if you're a high-profile content provider (or aspire to be one), certification would seem to be something that can work in your favour. And I'd see that as an investment myself... but hey, that's just me. YRMV.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Attached is just one example of badly organising files. See the folder "!DAZ", pathetically lost amongst all the other exclamation marks!!!

Unfortunatley if I move all those folders out on "Libraries" and into a more appropriate folder called "Morphs" then all the links will be broken and the vendor updates won't work.

And this is just an example of the chaos in the first level of folders without going into the Libraries subfolders!!!!

Funny to see that Rawart made two folders "!Raw" and "Raw". Obviously thought the exclamation mark would help find their folder. Sorry mate didn't work! Use a truck load more exlamation marks next time!!!! LOL

Poser has passed through various distributor hands and so I suspect noone seems to have given much thought on all the content being created and how best to organise it to be shared.

Poser created a Libraries folder called Materials in Poser 5 (I think). So any Libraries folders previously created by others also called Materials in earlier Poser versions would a been a right nightmare to fix up after the new official Materials folder was created.

Another issue is that Daz Studio is very specific with seaching files in accordance exactly by the filepath written. Poser is more flexible and as long as the file is in the Runtime folder it will find it even if the filepath is incorrect. I prefer th use Daz Studio. So you Poser users have got it easy in this regards. I have to be extremely careful to move files around. Files with exclamation marks (as anoying as they are) are the least of my woes. !!Sigh!!

Typically the files that use the ones you want or wish where in the Morph folder are Injection poses. I use textwranger by bare bones software (mac) which has a search and replace you can point at a whole a folder, not just a file or all open files. I have nothing in the Library folder other then the standard folders, !Daz and a folder called Morphs it takes less then a minute to do a mass search and replace on say "Runtimes:Libraries:Raw: and change it to "Runtimes:Libraries:Morphs:Raw: as an example you pointed out.

 

I edit files all the time. Not one supplied .pmd file is inside my libraries folder. They are all in the same folder as the geometry files that came with the product. I want to be able to reorganize, move, change, subdivide my runtimes freely and as a result of taking a maybe a minute or two up front I save hours when I want to shuffle the deck so to speak.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

@gritcher - textwranger sound interesting but I use a PC (not Mac). Anyhoot I use Dimension3D RuntimeRepair to help fix up / rewrite filepaths so the file can be found by Daz Studio.

I find that moving files around within the official Libraries folders Camera/Character/Face/Hair/Hand/Light/Materials/Pose/Props is ok provided there isn't a geometry(obj), texture(jpg, png, etc), and pmd left in those Libraries folders as well.

All geomeries should be in Geometries and all textures should be in Textures. But I don't think the pmd file was well thought out by the Poser developers to just have it sit in the Libraries folders. Like the InjDelta.PZ2/RemDelta.PZ2, the pmd file should be in a special place such as "Morphs" outside the Libraries folder.

I just hope the Poser developers don't create a new official Room called "Morphs" otherwise that will give me a big headache. And if Poser developers give too much free reign for others to create folders then they will cause themselves a headache on future developments of Poser.

Anyhoot as I said, if I start moving files/folders around I have to be real careful because then content updates from Vendors will not work or take more file editing on my part to make the update work.

I don't want to be forever fixing up files. I just want to make art!!!!!!

Quote - > Quote - "Creating a site like the one quoted would set up an elitist caste system among Poser users and anyone with enough cash to throw at the certification site would get certified!"

You may have missed this bullet: "The quality of the product is not an issue."

What does quality have to do with the text you quoted? I still don't see anyone ponying up their time, and cash to run this site without actually charging people to get certified. And by charging them I can see abuses from the get go.

Quote - Yep. Look at all the Wikis out there, and look at all the open source work being done. People do stuff like this all the time.

I think that you should look at the Wikis. Specifically, the Poser Wikis. DAZ has one that they can't get anyone to fill out and Rendo has a barebones one here which I've submitted two entries to but it's just not taking off either. Poser users in general, just aren't the Wiki filling out sort. These are the people you're expecting to do this work non-gratis? 

You want to compare Certification to Open Source? Look at how few people are actually doing the work on Antonia. It would take 100 times that amount of people to do the work to certify files to get the Poser Certified sticker if people actually took their stuff there to be certified.

But hey, don't let me rain on your parade. I like pie too. Pie in the sky is just too hard to get to IMHO. :rolleyes:

@SteveJax -  There seemsto be a significant disconnect between what you see as the certification process and what I and others are suggesting. The criteria for certification are straightforward and black and white. The effort required to review a product should be about five minutes. The idea is not to create some hurdle that the vendors have to overcome, it's to simply give them a set of standards to meet.

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OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

The disconnect is that I KNOW what's involved in product checking a file for release to the Poser public. It's NOT something that can be done in 5 minutes. Checking file structure alone will take 5 minutes. Checking that poses work, well that involves actually loading the runtime into Poser, loading figures and possibly clothing if there are MAT Poses involved. None of which can be done in less than an half an hour. Multiply that by 20 products and there's your whole day.

OK. Whatever.

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OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

OK...Let's say some good company finds out that the Poser company has a great breakroom with an excellent pooltable and based on that information decides to buy it.  Now you're saying that after they get done buying Poser and playing much pool they should start this certification program?

 

 

Quote - OK. Whatever.

O.o

SteveJax is absolutely correct.  I'd expect that much at least from my beta testers.  Any certification process should be at least as thorough.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I originally wrote the following in a PM. I wasn't going to say any more in this thread because I hate being the hope crusher. I guess the following explaination best describes why I don't ever see Certification happening, much as I'd like to see a Poser Certified Logo on stuff:

This is why I don't see Smith Micro or anyone else doing this. First and foremost, I can see no return on their investment costs to do such a thing. None. Zilch. There is no profit to be made in certifying content.

Here's the thing. I've MADE content for sale and free to redistribute. I know just how much time it takes to verify that a package is not only setup properly runtime wise but tested to verify that it works. The 35 minute estimate I gave in the thread was an extreemly conservative estimate basically just for a package of MAT poses. I can see where testing figures could actually take days to be certified that they work properly. DAYS!

First, a figure isn't JUST a figure. It's a new figure with Morphs, maybe with a complete set of basic clothing, and maybe a whole pose set including hand poses and facial expressions and MAT poses. That's a LOT of content to test and every thing must be tested to get "Poser Certified"! It Has to be. If you don't test everything you will get complaints with any item that passes and ends up problematic. Get enough of these pass through problems and your "Poser Certified" is suddenly just a joke and people stop submitting things at all. Then you're just back to where we are now.

The end result being, most people either learn to fix things they find or they quit the hobby. They're better off learning to do it themselves because honestly? This isn't a hobby for lazy people. You either learn and learn and learn some more, or you quit. I've been doing this since 1998 and I still learn new things every day because I dig into it and I don't know squat about a lot of aspects of Poser still to this day.

In the past 13 years or so, I've seen this "Poser Certified" topic crop up at least half a dozen times under various scenarios and names and it always fizzles of it's own accord. Why? Because as people dig into it, they discover it is WORK and it's not gonna get done for them for free. Nobody wants to do the work. Simple as that. So end users will just continue to bitch because they either have to learn to fix things IE: Do the work themselves or quit.

 There. I said it. Hate me now?   

There. I said it. Hate me now?

Nah...We're all on the same page that a certification program is needed.  What i would like to see is instead of a "no you're wrong" reply is someone take the issues you've pointed out and present some solutions. 

 

 

Not me.  Your reasoning is perfectly sound.

It's incumbent upon vendors to do their bit by testing and getting reliable beta testers.  Without a paid incentive, expecting anything above and beyond that is - as you said previously - pie in the sky.  I do, however, wish Marketplace testing was more stringent.  There have been packages sold here in the past which broke submission criteria.  That should never happen.

OTOH, there are many damn good vendors who get it right anyhow.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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i have a question...if the details are hammered out and a certification program is implemented,  how will daz react?

 

 

Quote - i have a question...if the details are hammered out and a certification program is implemented,  how will daz react?

That's a whole different thread I suspect.

That's a whole different thread I suspect.

i'm wondering if daz would see it as cooperation or competition?  You're right though,  it is an issue for another thread? 

Should the certification program have training for aspiring vendors?

 

 

That's a neat idea, Pat.

Something to mull over...

I don't know how you'd get a site to accept the certification process, in any case.  Not unless it was handed down on high from SM.  Even then, people may react badly to it, believing it to be a similar scenario to Sony et al and their stance on content development for their consoles.

For example, Rendo and DAZ both walk a line regarding quality and quantity.  True enough, there are some terrible products out there which should have never seen the light of day but is any merchanting site really going to put a stop to it when they get a hefty slice of the cake on any item sold?  Anything slowing down their throughput wouldn't be very welcome, IMO.

It could also lead to a two tier system, where some sites sell only certified content and others don't.  True or not, some buyers would percieve the non certified content to be inferior.  It may well not be inferior but just a case of some vendors not wishing to jump through hoops to sell what they made.  F'rinstance, I'd happily subscribe to certification - in theory - provided it didn't put any obstacles in my way.  By that I mean pointless steps undertaken just to get the magic badge.   I could also forsee a backlog of products awaiting the OK, too.  Vendors ain't gonna like that.

Sorry Pat, I guess I just killed the "other thread" option stone dead.  Or kick started it.  :)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I work with industrial equipment and for us quality checks are part of the manufacturing process at every stage. You have to maintain a structured process to ensure a level of quality. It's quite rigid. To translate this process to vendor content creation (or a Certification process by others) it would mean the vendor (or Certifying body) would have to have a certain amount of self disipline and a systematic approach to content creation. All very boaring stuff that sucks the fun out of the job.

I made a couple of freebies and I used my runtime to see how others structured their content. It was quite a learning experience. But as I was making them I was always doing checks along the way. It just comes natural to me from my day job. Anyhoot I wanted want I made to work for myself too! And since the content had my name attached, it was also a bit of personal pride to get it right. But I didn't quite get it right the first time. LOL.

Or kick started it.  :)

That brings back memories...Long ago a dear friend of mine said," Your Revolution began with Our Magna Carta." 

Sam,  i see what you are saying.  i see alot of potential for abuse too.  How do we balance the power between customers,  vendors,  Daz and SM,  and investors?

Is there a way to ease people into this? 

 

 

I work with industrial equipment and for us quality checks are part of the manufacturing process at every stage. You have to maintain a structured process to ensure a level of quality. It's quite rigid. To translate this process to vendor content creation (or a Certification process by others) it would mean the vendor (or Certifying body) would have to have a certain amount of self disipline and a systematic approach to content creation. All very boaring stuff that sucks the fun out of the job.

How would you set up the certification process?

 

 

 

Quote - How would you set up the certification process?

I was afraid someone might ask me that. LOL.

But seriously the certification process has to be a measure against a standard / criteria that has to be agreed with between the stakeholders (example - SM / Rendo / Content Creator). In this way a check list can be made such as the following example:-

001 Are all geometries in the Geometries folder? yes / no.

002 Are all textures in the Textures folder? yes / no.

003 Are there absolutely NO exclamation marks in the file/folder name? yes / no / depends!

999 And so on....

This check list can be part of Rendo's package to the Content Creators so that the CC's can check it themself and submit it with the product to Rendo for verification.

The check list should be reviewed often based on customer feedback (we customers are also stakeholders) on the products.

The check list should be realistic and applicable, and not just a wish list.

I'm not sure if the check list should be made public or included in the product package sold. That maybe a bit of a touchy point. Just like all other manufacturers our company does not publicly display it's internal quality check reports or neither should it. At the end there is always a warranty period and of course the Law.

Most manufacturing companies have Quality Assurance accreditation, but that is a huge overhead of time / labour / costs that someone (dearly beloved consumers) has to pay for at the end of the day.

Therefore the check list should be part of the natural workflow and assistance to, but not a burdon to, the Content Creators.

Just thought I'll add to my above certification process "guide" that this doesn't happen in any Company. Instead the Company creates a QA department.

At worst the QA department asks noone about how the work is actually done in each department and makes procedures that have nothing to do with the workflow and are a burden to all.

At best the QA department may ask the depatment managers how the work is done in their depatment.....as if they know!!! And then the QA department makes procedures that have nothing to do with the workflow and are a burden to those actually doing the work.

Let me reiterate my previous comment "All very boaring stuff that sucks the fun out of the job."

i like it.  i think you have provided a very solid approach.  If you have the time, talk with the others, get their input and have something i can present to the investors by apr 30th

 

 

All very boaring stuff that sucks the fun out of the job

That's with we need the breakroom*.lol

 

 

Quote - i like it.  i think you have provided a very solid approach.  If you have the time, talk with the others, get their input and have something i can present to the investors by apr 30th

Well I was even more afraid someone may ask that!

Thank you for your confidence in me and I hate to dissapoint you. But my day job is normally busy enough. Actually a little too quite at the moment because of the cascading effects of the Global Financial Crisis. Hence some quite time taken to check out Rendo's Galleries & Forums.

I understand the Certification process from what we do for our Company products and from what I learnt in Management classes (4 years of wishy washy stuff, except Accounting which seemed more solid). But I come to Rendo to relax and not do what I consider as their and the Content Creator's job discription to provide <> quality in products to the market.

Quote - That's with we need the breakroom*.*lol

AMEN brother!

Thank you for your confidence in me and I hate to dissapoint you. But my day job is normally busy enough. Actually a little too quite at the moment because of the cascading effects of the Global Financial Crisis. Hence some quite time taken to check out Rendo's Galleries & Forums.

You're welcome and thank you for your presentation.

Enjoy the quite while it last.  Eventually the Bulls must run.

 

 

I don't fret over this anymore. I've fixed so many Poser files over the years, free & paid content, that I can do it with my eyes closed and I'm not a content maker. Infact, I spend more time fixing files then I do rendering them. It's just the nature of the beast.

I don't fret over this anymore. I've fixed so many Poser files over the years, free & paid content, that I can do it with my eyes closed and I'm not a content maker. Infact, I spend more time fixing files then I do rendering them. It's just the nature of the beast.

Should we offer a repair service along with the certification process?

 

 

I recently put a ! in front of a folder name, for the sole purpose of putting it at at the top of the MAT folders in one of my products. It's located in MaterialsBionicRoosterProductName, so I saw no harm in doing it. I would never do that in the main library, only within the confines of my own folders, and only in certain circumstances. I've never done it before, but saw the need this time to keep a Bonus MATs folder at the top of the list instead of mixed in with the rest, somewhat hidden.

                                                                                                                    

Poser 10

Octane Render

Wings 3D

I recently put a ! in front of a folder name, for the sole purpose of putting it at at the top of the MAT folders in one of my products. It's located in MaterialsBionicRoosterProductName, so I saw no harm in doing it. I would never do that in the main library, only within the confines of my own folders, and only in certain circumstances. I've never done it before, but saw the need this time to keep a Bonus MATs folder at the top of the list instead of mixed in with the rest, somewhat hidden.

i don't see any harm in that.

 

 

I don't think certification is the right approach, I think it is too complex a solution, too costly in terms of effort required to police/manage it. It won't fix everything, there will still be vendors who don't seek certification for whatever reason, so there'll still be products out there that need fixing after you buy them. And Free stuff will still be a mess.

I think the simplest approach would be to draw up a really detailed set of guidelines based on some of the checklists that have been touched on in this thread and then to make those guidelines available to content creators. It would basically become a set of instructions on how to package a product.

Sure, there are vendors who will choose to stick with their !!!names and convoluted folder structures, but they wouldn't have bought into the certification process anyway.

The vast majority of vendors and freebie creators would welcome it, it's a heck of a lot easier to follow detailed guidelines/checklists than it is to invent your own system every time you do it and wonder if you got everything. At the moment everyone is making it up as they go along and the result is chaos. The end user probably can't tell a well-packaged product from a sloppy one anymore because the bad ones outnumber the good. Vendors have been getting away with sloppy work because customers often don't know any better.

Once Joe customer has a better idea of what constitutes a good product (via "The Guidelines") vendors will be under a bit more pressure to come up to standard, or risk bad reviews for sloppy work. A Pose should never ruin a facial expression or move the figure to a different place in the scene, but a lot of customers don't know that, they just get frustrated when it happens. If more customers demanded their money back (or a fix) when they encountered it you'd soon see vendors improving their standards and checking more thoroughly.

Quote - I don't think certification is the right approach, I think it is too complex a solution, too costly in terms of effort required to police/manage it. It won't fix everything, there will still be vendors who don't seek certification for whatever reason, so there'll still be products out there that need fixing after you buy them. And Free stuff will still be a mess.

I think the simplest approach would be to draw up a really detailed set of guidelines based on some of the checklists that have been touched on in this thread and then to make those guidelines available to content creators. It would basically become a set of instructions on how to package a product.

Sure, there are vendors who will choose to stick with their !!!names and convoluted folder structures, but they wouldn't have bought into the certification process anyway.

The vast majority of vendors and freebie creators would welcome it, it's a heck of a lot easier to follow detailed guidelines/checklists than it is to invent your own system every time you do it and wonder if you got everything. At the moment everyone is making it up as they go along and the result is chaos. The end user probably can't tell a well-packaged product from a sloppy one anymore because the bad ones outnumber the good. Vendors have been getting away with sloppy work because customers often don't know any better.

Once Joe customer has a better idea of what constitutes a good product (via "The Guidelines") vendors will be under a bit more pressure to come up to standard, or risk bad reviews for sloppy work. A Pose should never ruin a facial expression or move the figure to a different place in the scene, but a lot of customers don't know that, they just get frustrated when it happens. If more customers demanded their money back (or a fix) when they encountered it you'd soon see vendors improving their standards and checking more thoroughly.

That's the most sensible suggestion I've seen in this whole thread!!! If this were Facebook I'd have clicked on the Like link!

 

To use another post of mine from that 4 year old thread I mentioned before, I suggested something like this:

Quote - ReadMe
    Merchant  
        ProductName folder
            product readme files
Runtime
    Geometries
        Merchant
            ProductName
                product obj files
    Libraries
        Regular library folders
            Merchant
                ProductName
                    product files
                    AddOn folders*
    Textures
        Merchant
            ProductName
                product textures
                AddOn folders*
               
For the AddOn folders (marked by asterisks), what I mean are merchant addons to an existing product.  For example, if I made mats and textures for the Daz Morphing Fantasy Dress and sold them, my texture directory layout might look something like this:

    Pose
        MATs
            DAZ
                MorphingFantasyDress
                    KeithsAmazingMFD

    Textures
        DAZ
            Clothing (if organized like this, otherwise move stuff up a level by removing this one)
                MorphingFantasyDress
                    KeithsAmazingMFD

Doing it this way means it's a lot easier to find things.  I know all the MAT files from everyone making stuff for the MFD will be in the MFD directory structure.  If I want to move the dress from, say, the V3 runtime to a dedicated DAZ clothing runtime, it's easy to find all the files and the add-on products that I've bought.

 

At the time I suggested this, someone pointed out that they'd hate the structure the way I did it, and that's fair enough because that sort of thing was personal preference. What I was getting at, though, is that it isn't trying to create a folder structure that would make everyone happy, which is an impossibility, but one that's consistent, so that if and when I want to reorganize things to suit my preferences, I know where they can be found as a default in a newly unzipped/installed file.

The single biggest pain in the ass with the wildly individual structures in product distribution is the textures folder.

Quote - To use another post of mine from that 4 year old thread I mentioned before, I suggested something like this:

Quote -     Libraries
        Regular library folders
            Merchant
                ProductName
                    product files
                    AddOn folders*

    Pose
        MATs
            DAZ
                MorphingFantasyDress
                    KeithsAmazingMFD

At the time I suggested this, someone pointed out that they'd hate the structure the way I did it, and that's fair enough because that sort of thing was personal preference.

I would hate it too! In the libraries I don't want my top level folder to be cluttered with a million merchant names and not have any clue what's in them or what figure they are for. That's why I would structure it by figures first. IE:

    Libraries
        Regular library folders
            Figure Vendor (IE: DAZ or SM or 3D Zone etcetra)
                     Figure (IE: Victoria or Jessi or Toon Sam etcetra)
THEN I would go      Merchant
                                         ProductName
                                                    product files
                                                                    AddOn folders*

Yeah my tree structures are deeper but the top levels are very clean.

Quote - At the time I suggested this, someone pointed out that they'd hate the structure the way I did it, and that's fair enough because that sort of thing was personal preference. What I was getting at, though, is that it isn't trying to create a folder structure that would make everyone happy, which is an impossibility, but one that's consistent, so that if and when I want to reorganize things to suit my preferences, I know where they can be found as a default in a newly unzipped/installed file. The single biggest pain in the ass with the wildly individual structures in product distribution is the textures folder.

Amen!

I totally agree. I would not really like that particular structure. But as you say, it's not the specifics of any given structure that are important. No way will anyone come up with something that would satisfy everyone. All that matters is that the structure is logical and consistent.

With your suggestion, I'd probably rename or move an average of two folders for every product. At the moment, I'm renaming most of them. But I don't even bother with textures because I'd like to have time to render something occasionally. As a result, the mere thought of actually moving products from one runtime to another makes me want to cry.

 

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote -

That's the most sensible suggestion I've seen in this whole thread!!! If this were Facebook I'd have clicked on the Like link!

Really?! Because that's what I've been advocating from the get go. I guess I haven't been very clear. Maybe "certification" was the wrong word; it was one I borrowed from MicroSoft.

As obm890 rightly states, the core of all of this is nothing more than a clearly defined set of standards, guidelines, conventions - whatever you want to call them.

When I was doing programming work, the better run shops all had some set of standards regarding coding, naming conventions etc. While these standards were never entirely satisfactory to everyone, everyone agreed that any standard was better than no standard at all, but that's what we have right now with Poser - no standards. To say that merchants are free to come up with their own standards is a little misleading. It would be more accurate to say that they are obligated to come up with their own standards. I suspect that most merchants would be delighted to have a set of clearly defined standards to follow.

Earlier today I was at the Dimension 3D site looking at some of the tools they have there, and I realized that almost everything we have been talking about on this thread could be automated, and in fact probably has been automated. See, e.g., the Poser File Organizer and the Runtime Repair tools. So what I'm suggesting is very simple and very easy to follow and very easy to check. The hard part will be in putting the list together.

As I said earlier, it would be nice if SM or Renderocity took the lead with this, but, really, anyone could do it. Remember - any standard is better than no standard at all. No matter what the standards are, there will be those who will object and often they will have very valid reasons for their objections. That's just the nature of the beast. Of course, users could still reorganize and rename everything to their hearts' content.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

Quote - I would hate it too! In the libraries I don't want my top level folder to be cluttered with a million merchant names and not have any clue what's in them or what figure they are for. That's why I would structure it by figures first. IE:

I keep all my stuff in seperate runtimes, so that isn't relevant in my case.

 

OK this is my suggestion for folder / file structure (based on Poser 5 and later for the PC). And you may notice no exclamation marks. !!Please!! LOL

One main thing to point out is that some files can be moved around whilst other files shouldn't. This is because of the file path created withing the library files to load geometries, textures, etc.

Basically the library files are an instruction file to load content (but of coarse they do a bit more than that). And the geometries, textures, etc are the content to be loaded.

For example: Mum wants to make omlet and gives you an instruction to get some eggs from farmer John at No 3 Lanes End. But farmer John has moved. The instructions are no longer valid so mum can't make you an omlet. Sigh!

Please note I got the Hand file and the Face file mixed up in my previous post.

The Hand file should be hd2 / hdz. And the Face file should be fc2 / fcz.

This is the correct image now. Sorry about that, my eggs were scrambled. LOL

Again, there is no way I would ever have a million vendor names at the top of my runtime libraries structures with no indication as to which figure their products were for. First of all you would very quickly find that your top folder was over run by vendor names and second you would have to root down their file structure and HOPE that their products tell you which figure they are for. (That hardly EVER happens).

The above method is the quickest way to clutter your runtime and waste your time forever searching for items for the character you are using in your scene.

The market is still the best place for vetting products. I do not mean they should not be tested by the creator, but I have bought products that were reportedly tested and fixed and retested and still encountered issues. I also have bought products that no indication that they were tested and never encountered a problem. (I also have bought products that there was no indication they were tested and they were dogs)

The market is best because if you buy something that is no good, you will not turn around and buy another similar product without some reason to try it again (unless you are an idiot or a masochist)...  There are some vendors I will never buy from again. There are some I will always buy from.

I do think vendors do need our feedback. If we buy a product and encounter an issue, contact the vendor. Do not give them a bad rating, give them a chance to fix it. On the same note, just because the vendor is a friend, do not give them glowing reviews. If you are a true friend, be honest (with Sitemail) give them a chance to improve the product and then write a factual review. Piling sugar on crap will not make the crap any better and will ruin the sugar.. (you will ruin your reputation and do nothing for the vendors)

ratscloset
aka John

@SteveJax - The vendor does not know your runtime structure one level after the official Poser folders. And basically a purchaser doesn't give a F%$#K about the vendors runtime structure either.

I am 100% certain that we all like to structure our folders differently to each other with noone willing to budge because we all think and work differently. Our workflows are not all the same. So there has to be some reasonable compromise.

Provided that the vendor keeps to the folder/file structure as I suggested then you can move (yes move) the library instruction files (cr2, pp2, pz2, etc) where ever you want within the appropriate official Poser library folder and your prefered subfolder (not mine, or the vendors, or others, but your prefered subfolder).

However the files/folders within the external folders (geomeries, textures, morphs, etc) must not be moved (so as not to break the file addressing link as I previously advised). Considering a purchaser (and most noobs) normally only needs to access the files in the library folders then that should not be a problem.

I expect the vendor subfolder would be named appropriately to identify what the contents are for and I expect the name of the zip file would also give you a hint to what the files are for (and it should always include a readme).

Example: vendorname_V4_naughtystuff_253747.zip

 

That was uncalled for. I was merely voicing my opinion the same as everyone else. Your assumption that purchasers don't give a hoot about the vendors runtime structure is however, complete nonsense. This thread wouldn't exist if we all didn't care about the product runtimes that vendors are using.

@SteveJax - My sincere appologies if what I wrote came across rude. I was venting some frustration, and that lead me to exaggerate a bit, but I wasn't trying to target anyone personally.

I recently had an experience with a customer on the supply of technical documentations. All because what our factory names the documents  is not what the customer names the documents then the customer has not accepted we have actually supplied the required documents.

I cannot change our factory documentation because it is part of the internal control system that has been developed for the global market; not for a specific customer. Therefore to reach a compromise I have to reissue the documents with two title blocks; our factory title block and another one I created specifically for this perdantic customer. It's been a frustrating week.

My sincere appologies again.

Appology accepted. I'm familiar with stress related foot in mouth disease. You're quite forgiven. If I knew you were a huggy person I'd give you one. LOL! (Yeah I'm a hugger)

When I was first working with Poser and trying to figure out their library (dis)organization, I was struck by how many people took a vendor-centric approach to their runtimes. My feeling was that if I wanted an evening dress I would look for evening dresses regardless of the vendor. Having done this for a while I'm beginning to gravitate to the vendor-centric approach myself.

So not only will it be impossible to please everyone with a single standard, you're not even going to be able to please the same individual as their style evolves. Still, that's OK. Any standard is better than no standard.

However, one of the considerations to any proposed standard should be ease of reorganization.

---

OS: Windows 10 64-bit, Poser: 10

LBAMagic,

If I used your file setup, I would have to change EVERY folder.

Anytime I have a folder with the vendor's name, that folder goes to the bit-bucket.

It may hurt their egos, but I don't want to see the vendor's name as a seperate folder or as the leading part of the folder.  I care about the product, not the vendor. 

How about this example instead:

Libraries

               Character -

                                   Product name(Vendor Name)

Libraries

                   Character - Evening Dress(Hongyu)

                                      Evening Dress(Idler 68)

                                      Evening Dress(Vendor Name Here)

 

 

With this set-up in the Poser runtime, all the dresses are together, and if the vendor wants to add a million exclaimation points, it will just reorder my list of evening dresses, not the entire folder.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote - LBAMagic,

If I used your file setup, I would have to change EVERY folder.

Anytime I have a folder with the vendor's name, that folder goes to the bit-bucket.

It may hurt their egos, but I don't want to see the vendor's name as a seperate folder or as the leading part of the folder.  I care about the product, not the vendor. 

How about this example instead:

Libraries

               Character -

                                   Product name(Vendor Name)

Libraries

                   Character - Evening Dress(Hongyu)

                                      Evening Dress(Idler 68)

                                      Evening Dress(Vendor Name Here)

 With this set-up in the Poser runtime, all the dresses are together, and if the vendor wants to add a million exclaimation points, it will just reorder my list of evening dresses, not the entire folder.

I'd even be satisfied with this simplified version of what I suggested. Simple fact. It's easier to find a dress for your figure if it's in a "Clothing Subfolder" under that figures main folder. Plain and simple. I just go the extra step and put all my characters under main folders for who made them like:

Character
          DAZ
               Figure
                    Clothing
                           Dresses
                           Shoes
                           Pants
                           Shirts
                           Underwear
                           Other
          Smith Micro
               Figure
                    Clothing
                           Dresses
                           Shoes
                           Pants
                           Shirts
                           Underwear
                           Other

 

This my actual libraries (sorry it in in Das Studio).

@All - I think now I understand there has been some missunderstanding. My file setup is only for  the vendor to distribute their products. It is not for the end user (purchaser).

There really can't be one standard for all as everyone agrees that we like to organise our files differently as our workflows and think are different.

However with the vendor distributing their product in one standard then the end user can easily find andthe products and relocate them to their library subfolder of their choice.

Setting standards isn't a problem, many stores already do that and some are stricter than others and the concept  of a "ISO" style standard makes sense. The question I see here is going to over see this?

Because stores and content creators have time and financial constraints which might clash with the standards, would you go back to the longstanding idea of the "poser guild"?

If so then, then the 2nd question is who runs the guild?

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Quote - Setting standards isn't a problem, many stores already do that and some are stricter than others and the concept  of a "ISO" style standard makes sense. The question I see here is going to over see this?

Because stores and content creators have time and financial constraints which might clash with the standards, would you go back to the longstanding idea of the "poser guild"?

If so then, then the 2nd question is who runs the guild?

Yeah I remember "The Poser Guild"! That sure lasted long didn't it?

Quote - I'd even be satisfied with this simplified version of what I suggested. Simple fact. It's easier to find a dress for your figure if it's in a "Clothing Subfolder" under that figures main folder. Plain and simple. I just go the extra step and put all my characters under main folders for who made them like:

 

People are missing the point.

This isn't about setting up a file system that everyone would switch over to. As has clearly been demonstrated, this simply is not going to happen.

It's about some consistency in the installation. What you do after that, however you want to reorganize it, is your own damn business. Which is exactly the situation as it stands right now, so you're not any further behind. The goal would be to provide some sort of logical basis, the raw material, as it were, for your later reorganization. If you want to put all your dress CR2s in one folder, knock yourself out. The point is that when you install, you know that what you just installed would have a certain organization so that you know where everything is. It doesn't matter if you like where it is or not; nothing prevents you from changing it.

Think of it like going into a supermarket. The vast majority of supermarkets look pretty much the same. Fresh vegetables and fruit are off on one side, the meat and dairy on another, there's an aisle where all the cereals are, so on and so forth.

Maybe you don't like the way it's organized. Maybe you'd organize the food in a different way, just like you do at home when you take the food there. But that's not the point. The point is that there's a pretty standard supermarket setup that allows a wide range of people to quickly locate what they need and then go off and do whatever they want with what they've got.

Same thing for department stores. There's a very good reason why the inside of a WalMart looks a lot like the inside of a Zellers looks a lot like the inside of a K-Mart looks a lot like the inside of a Target looks a lot like the inside of a Sears. They've adopted a standardized approach that allows the costumer to find things. I've been in department stores that didn't belong to a major chain, and didn't follow their type of layout, and it took me forever to find anything I was looking for because of their individualistic way of organizing things.

Yes.  This is it, here.  Consistancy would be a plus.

Quote - People are missing the point.

This isn't about setting up a file system that everyone would switch over to. As has clearly been demonstrated, this simply is not going to happen.

It's about some consistency in the installation. What you do after that, however you want to reorganize it, is your own damn business. Which is exactly the situation as it stands right now, so you're not any further behind. The goal would be to provide some sort of logical basis, the raw material, as it were, for your later reorganization. If you want to put all your dress CR2s in one folder, knock yourself out. The point is that when you install, you know that what you just installed would have a certain organization so that you know where everything is. It doesn't matter if you like where it is or not; nothing prevents you from changing it.

Think of it like going into a supermarket. The vast majority of supermarkets look pretty much the same. Fresh vegetables and fruit are off on one side, the meat and dairy on another, there's an aisle where all the cereals are, so on and so forth.

Maybe you don't like the way it's organized. Maybe you'd organize the food in a different way, just like you do at home when you take the food there. But that's not the point. The point is that there's a pretty standard supermarket setup that allows a wide range of people to quickly locate what they need and then go off and do whatever they want with what they've got.

Same thing for department stores. There's a very good reason why the inside of a WalMart looks a lot like the inside of a Zellers looks a lot like the inside of a K-Mart looks a lot like the inside of a Target looks a lot like the inside of a Sears. They've adopted a standardized approach that allows the costumer to find things. I've been in department stores that didn't belong to a major chain, and didn't follow their type of layout, and it took me forever to find anything I was looking for because of their individualistic way of organizing things.

Because stores and content creators have time and financial constraints which might clash with the standards, would you go back to the longstanding idea of the "poser guild"?

Most certainly...Question is though,  if the Poser Guild is reborn from the ashes of its former self,  will the new members carry the idea in their hearts or in their wallets?

If so then, then the 2nd question is who runs the guild?

Good question...  Should we consider the triangle as a symbol of the balance of power?

 

 

Exactly, Keith.

I'm going to fiddle with any imposed structure, in order to suit my needs. And I will probably change it over time.

But it would make it so much easier if the structure I started with, directly from the vendors, was consistent.

Heck, it would make a HUGE difference if vendors would just agree to put their morphs in the same morph folder and their readme's in the same place -- with unique file names. If we could get extra userguides, templates, backgrounds, and pz3's in the same places, I'd be ecstatic.

I don't see why these small changes would be so hard. But it's not unlike making public policy. The perfect really does turn out to be the enemy of the good.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

 It is very irritating when you have quite a few resources and it takes awhile to find what youd like to use. Honestly when im working I dont care to waste time searching for things nor renaming unless its a really really needed product, i just avoid those merchants. My dream is for a uniform and sensible naming scheme that everyone would use instead of variously the "!!!" etc, or the vendors name or the studios name or some other name. Thats ok tho, Im moving on to other software so poser will just be a side and its respurces will be exported.