bagginsbill opened this issue on Feb 27, 2011 · 94 posts
bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 11:23 AM
Here is a WIP, featuring M4 sporting the free Tyrese texture, VSS PR4 shader, and the BBEye, auto fitted to M4 by a script I'm writing. If the script does its job, it will load the BBEye correctly onto any figure, even one I've never seen before.
Crits are welcome - I especially am struggling with getting the specularity right, and compensating for the difference between sRGB and GC.
This was rendered in Poser Pro 2010 with IDL, but NOT with render GC - using shader GC only for the moment. So this is a P8-style render.
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bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 11:23 AM
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Cariad posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 11:32 AM
gets in line to wait for this
Honestly, this is awesome, I have a character I am working on using that texture and that is about what I have been trying to achieve for him.
Since I don't have PP2010 (come on tax return) I am glad to see the P8 style render.
hborre posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 11:45 AM
Good to see you back writing major Poser scripts.
lkiilerich posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 12:54 PM
Oh that will really be nice I'm looking forward to it :-)
richardson posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 2:13 PM
What is your SSS color on him? Looks like you have avoided the usual pitfalls with black skin. His nose does have some red glow, though.
RobynsVeil posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 3:13 PM
Quote - Crits are welcome - I especially am struggling with getting the specularity right, and compensating for the difference between sRGB and GC. This was rendered in Poser Pro 2010 with IDL, but NOT with render GC - using shader GC only for the moment. So this is a P8-style render.
Shader GC being that 2.2-based gamma-correction, or the corrected-sRGB you and KobaltKween talked about? Have you used the latter much?
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bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 3:28 PM
Quote - What is your SSS color on him? Looks like you have avoided the usual pitfalls with black skin. His nose does have some red glow, though.
The same as in PR3 I think - RGB 255, 51, 0, with the SSS amount set to .3. Even setting it to 0 does not get rid of that redness - it is from using IDL and gamma corrected luminance. The bounced light is over-emphasized due to the shader GC. It is only avoidable by making the shaders not do the final GC.
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bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 3:30 PM
Quote - > Quote - Crits are welcome - I especially am struggling with getting the specularity right, and compensating for the difference between sRGB and GC. This was rendered in Poser Pro 2010 with IDL, but NOT with render GC - using shader GC only for the moment. So this is a P8-style render.
Shader GC being that 2.2-based gamma-correction, or the corrected-sRGB you and KobaltKween talked about? Have you used the latter much?
Well it's shader GC at 2.2, but with an adjustment in the whole process that changes the equation. I'm not actually seeking math purity of sRGB here so it is hard to explain the math as I am making it up. I'm trying to make a parameter that "artists" will find helpful. We could call it "contrast" but it's more complicated than that.
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Vestmann posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 6:07 PM
Yes! A VSS update! Can't wait. The renders look promising. Will the new script create procedural bump maps or will it rely on texture maps? It would be great if it would eliminate the need for specular and bump maps.
manoloz posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 6:36 PM
It looks better than any eye shader I've done!
The only thing I could say is, sometimes the white in the eye is not completely white. Especially in people with high blood pressure, anemia, etc. And sometimes you can barely see some veins in there.
But you would probably have to put the camera quite near the eyes to notice that.
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bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 8:34 PM
Quote - Yes! A VSS update! Can't wait. The renders look promising. Will the new script create procedural bump maps or will it rely on texture maps?
Either or both. I have never seen a Poser/Daz-character bump map that was better than my procedural. But if you really want to use one, you can. Maybe you have a good one.
Quote - It would be great if it would eliminate the need for specular and bump maps.
That's why I'm doing this update. I honestly don't think the bump in skin is character specific, and you should be able to use any color map alone, as I've done here.
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bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 8:41 PM
Quote - It looks better than any eye shader I've done!
The only thing I could say is, sometimes the white in the eye is not completely white. Especially in people with high blood pressure, anemia, etc. And sometimes you can barely see some veins in there.
But you would probably have to put the camera quite near the eyes to notice that.
I am not going to be supplying any textures with the eye - you will use whatever you want.
The renders above are showing, from a distance, this texture that you can see on my free stuff page for the Antonia BBEye. (The original version - I'm changing the geometry now.)
http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff/bbeye
I will not be distributing that texture, or any other at the moment. But if you look at the render in the linked page, you will see the details possible in a closeup.
I am remapping the eye to work with existing eye mappings from well-known figures.
In these renders, I have not done that yet. I was simply testing the automated fits.
Note that the eye shaders will include simple parameters to:
Change the tint of the sclera (the white part).
Change the tint of the iris (the color part).
Change the strength of the dark outer ring of the iris.
And because of the script, you will be able to use V4 eye maps on V3 or Alyson or Ryan, Ryan maps on M4 or V4, etc - mix and match. These will be universal eyes that take any texture and fit any figure.
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Vestmann posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 8:45 PM
Quote - Either or both. I have never seen a Poser/Daz-character bump map that was better than my procedural. But if you really want to use one, you can. Maybe you have a good one.
No I haven't. I sometimes edit the color maps in Photoshop to get a more natural color but finding a good bump-specular combination has always been a headache. So when will the update be ready? ;) (I had to ask)
bagginsbill posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 8:46 PM
I will post a WIP PR4 skin shader to get feedback tomorrow.
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Vestmann posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 8:51 PM
GeneralNutt posted Sun, 27 February 2011 at 10:09 PM Online Now!
Quote - I will post a WIP PR4 skin shader to get feedback tomorrow.
So that being 1 hr from now here, I can't wait. ;)
The eye script is what I am really looking forward to. Your last skin shader can hold me over (at least until I see more of the new one). The new geometry eye add so much to a render, but I can never seem to get the placement right.
hborre posted Mon, 28 February 2011 at 12:44 PM
Hopefully we will see this soon. BB's got a birthday coming up, and if he celebrates before finishing, he will be totally useless afterwards.
richardson posted Mon, 28 February 2011 at 1:27 PM
Hopefully we will see this soon. BB's got a birthday coming up, and if he celebrates before finishing, he will be totally useless afterwards.
May I suggest a few shots of Powers Irish (smooth)chased with a Rogue Brutal IPA*.* No bad aftereffects.. (I just got turned on to it)..haar*
NanetteTredoux posted Mon, 28 February 2011 at 2:14 PM
Bagginsbill, this is so encouraging. I have really been struggling with Black skins and GC, and mostly I just end up not using GC on my Black characters, because of the pinky-grey washed out look. This looks so much better.
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corinthianscori posted Mon, 28 February 2011 at 2:15 PM
Quote - > Quote - What is your SSS color on him? Looks like you have avoided the usual pitfalls with black skin. His nose does have some red glow, though.
The same as in PR3 I think - RGB 255, 51, 0, with the SSS amount set to .3. Even setting it to 0 does not get rid of that redness - it is from using IDL and gamma corrected luminance. The bounced light is over-emphasized due to the shader GC. It is only avoidable by making the shaders not do the final GC.
I haven't ever used or operated Gamma Correction. Don't know or care what it is yet(JUST purchased Poser 8 to upgrade from Poser 6, ten minutes ago!)
You can use a simple blur map to compensate for the GC'ed light in the nose. Well, I'd imagine so anyway.
Sometimes its best to use a tiny map( or just a series of well placed Tile-node circles) to compensate for the too-much light in the nose.
Re-think this. It could work.
Miss Nancy posted Mon, 28 February 2011 at 11:47 PM
it looks nice IMVHO. nose doesn't appear red on my monitor. Gamma Correction is a means to move beyond the muddy, low-dynamic-range poser4 renders that useta be the norm in poser 5 - 7.
bagginsbill posted Tue, 01 March 2011 at 10:52 AM
Quote - I will post a WIP PR4 skin shader to get feedback tomorrow.
No I didn't. I got really sick (flu maybe?) Sunday evening and I was in bed all day Monday. I'm at work today but hopefully this evening I will post a test shader for you guys to play with.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 01 March 2011 at 10:58 AM
Regarding the glow caused by IDL, this is due to the shader producing gamma-corrected colors, and the luminance of these false colors being used for lighting pre-calc as well as final render. I wonder if there is some way for the shader to detect its use in pre-calc and during that phase produce linear colors. Hmmm.
I'm at work and cannot play, but I wonder if any other intrepid shader masters can experiment and see if one of the nodes can be employed to detect the pre-calc phase. Maybe one of the specular nodes won't fire during pre-calc?
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Winterclaw posted Tue, 01 March 2011 at 11:30 AM
Your other trick to detect if something was gamma corrected first didn't work on this I take it.
When someone gets a chance, what is this pre-calc thingy?
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 01 March 2011 at 12:09 PM
My GC detection trick does work. The trick there is to have a SimpleColor node with middle-gray RGB(128,128,128) in it and compare that to the number .5. If render GC is on, the measured value will be less than .5. When middle-gray is less than .5 I disable the shader GC.
The problem is that shader GC is enabled (correctly) but it affects the indirect diffuse lighting pre-calculation. Objects near each other emit light on each other. (Such as the bottom of the nose and the skin under the nose - they light each other.)
We want shader GC to correct the colors for display on the monitor, but this messes up the diffuse inter-reflection (IDL) calculation. Gamma corrected colors are not being presented as linear values but the lighting equation is based on linear values. The boosted values cause the lighting to be boosted, and this is undesirable.
The use of IDL without render GC is really troublesome. The whole point of IDL is to get accurate secondary lighting, but all lighting is inaccurate as it appears in the final image without gamma correction.
I could skip the shader GC altogether, but then it will look like crap unless you do a bunch of compensations - the kind we always did - like adding fill lights and setting shader response values to unrealistic levels. Doing that sort of thing is counterproductive when the intent is to use and benefit by a built-in accurate lighting and rendering model.
I could also build half-GC into the shader - where it does the incoming anti-GC, but does not do that final render GC. Then you'd have to do the final GC as a post-processing step on the whole image, outside of Poser. Or you could do it with my artistic lens. But all of these other tactics are ugly compared to just enabling IDL and GC, ala Poser Pro 2010.
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Winterclaw posted Tue, 01 March 2011 at 12:37 PM
Yikes, that sounds complicated (I'm way too inexperienced to help and I still need to load P8 onto my PC). Too bad you can't just add an AO node to your shader to compensate. :(
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kobaltkween posted Wed, 02 March 2011 at 8:40 AM
bagginsbill posted Wed, 02 March 2011 at 11:14 AM
My plan is to make multiple versions with different UV mappings so it can use various popular maps without having to scale the images in the shader. I did already make a shader for it where you can adjust the center and diameter for both the sclera and the iris. With this node setup you can make any texture work on the original BBEye. But making those adjustments is tedious.
Instead I'm producing multiple OBJ files, each with different UV layout.
The loader script is a pose file with nothing in it but a call to a Python script. So it's a Py-Pose file I suppose. So far I just have one OBJ for V4 mapping, and one OBJ for Antonia mapping. To load the V4 mapping, you double click the BBEye-V4 Py-Pose file. To load the Antonia mapping, you double click the BBEye-Antonia Py-Pose file.
You don't have to load the correct Py-Pose file for different figures - any will work on all figures. The choice is made entirely by which mapping style you want. You can load Antonia mapped eyes on V4 or M4 or Ryan or Alyson or V3 or Sydney or Jessie or James. You can do the same with V4 mapped eyes.
The loader script examines the eyes on the currently selected figure. It measures them and figures out where the center of rotation is for each. Then it loads the desired OBJ file for each eye, positioning the BBEye to line up with the figure's eye and parents the BBEye so it tracks movement and rotation of the original. It hides the original eye automatically. The next part I haven't done yet, but expect it will be workable. The script will examine the geometry of the figure's existing eye, and scale the BBEye to match automatically. I'm hoping to measure the existing iris as well, and scale the BBEye iris and cornea to match.
The final step I hope to do is examine the existing shader on the figure's real eye, locate the maps, and copy them into the BBEye shader.
Hopefully, if all goes will, the workflow is:
Load a figure.
Load some textures onto the figure.
Load the desired BBEye loader.
That's you you'll have to do.
If you want to change eye maps, you would:
Load some new textures onto the figure.
Click the BBEye Refresh pose file to copy the maps into the BBEyes.
I also already have pose files that hide the BBEyes and reveal the original eyes, and vice versa.
If I do this right, you'll even be able to load the BBEye on dogs, cats, horses, etc. You'll need to know which mapping to deal with, and if I don't have a mapping, you'll have to use the generic version with parameter nodes for adjusting the center and scale of the sclera and the iris in UV space.
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GeneralNutt posted Wed, 02 March 2011 at 11:45 AM Online Now!
jartz posted Wed, 02 March 2011 at 9:28 PM
Interesting.
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Vestmann posted Wed, 02 March 2011 at 9:44 PM
bagginsbill posted Wed, 02 March 2011 at 11:02 PM
Sorry I'm so slow on this. I didn't expect to be working very much this week but now I'm out of town and working long hours. The files are at home and I'm a little mixed up as to which is which.
I'll be returning home tomorrow night and I'm pretty sure I'll post Friday.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 3:24 PM
The important thing to examine here is how the specular behaves - that's the dominant new thing. I'd like to see results, good or bad, and perhaps comparisons with PR3 using various textures. I don't have a lot of textures, nor a lot of time to test. So if you guys think this shader is wonky, please let me know. It's got quite a few new ideas in it.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 3:25 PM
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 3:26 PM
Do full size on both, and do a flip comparison. Tell me what you think.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 3:35 PM
I already know I did something wrong, because I'm getting very different results with render GC off - the shader GC is coming out much brighter. With correct math, they would come out identical. I missed something.
Sigh. Can't tweak much today - have to work.
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Vestmann posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 3:54 PM
The specular looks nice! I'm working on something now but I look forward to trying this in a moment. Happy times ;)
K1Kun posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 4:53 PM
Not bad at all. Any chance of seeing that without the texture ? I'm a newbie at poser so I may be totally off base here, but that really seems like most of the work is being done by the texture. Would be cool to see what kind of shading you get without it.
GeneralNutt posted Fri, 04 March 2011 at 10:54 PM Online Now!
First off Thank you so much.
I'll gladly play with, I mean test it for a bit. Is there setting in lights you perfer to see?
GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 2:55 AM Online Now!
The following images are new shader upfront and old one behind, then reversed.
GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 2:55 AM Online Now!
GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 2:57 AM Online Now!
GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 2:59 AM Online Now!
hborre posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 2:50 PM
Question: does the new shaders look more natural and realistic?
bagginsbill posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 3:02 PM
In GeneralNutt's renders, I cannot tell which is which. So, I guess it's not an improvement. I think up close it might be, though, especially if the bump map in the texture set is lousy and you have to not use it. I don't know.
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Vestmann posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 3:09 PM
I've done a few tests and I'd say the new specular system is definately more natural and realistic. I tried putting specular masks in the PM:Shine Level node and it gave good results. I like the new MicroBump specular setting and it would be nice to have more control over it (or maybe I need to better understand it first) I also haven't been able to fully get my head around the Diffuse Contrast feature and I'm not sure how to use it properly.
My mother is turning 70 tommorow so haven't had time to test it fully but it's definatly an improvement over VSS3. I'll be doing more tests after the weekend.
GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 3:12 PM Online Now!
With posers slider to view the difference, you can really see a difference. but without it, it is difficult. If you look at the rim lit area's you can see how they change. So far, as a whole I think I like the older version better, but I really like the new set up with the maps at the begining of the new one. I think I want to tweek the new one more to see if it grows on me. Any idea's how to lessen the greying effect? And what is that PM node, the one on the bottem all about (show ssse)?
Vestmann posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 3:22 PM
GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 3:23 PM Online Now!
I think I agree with Vestmann on the shine looks more natural, again I want to test that more though. The Natasha skin is DAZ elite skin and I usually tweek it a bit to get where I want, but didn't here. It also comes with a specular map that I think I should try Vestmann's idea and plug it into Shine level. The Ella map is from DMR, and I love these DMR maps, but they have no specular map, and thus work better without tweeking. It would be nice if somehow VSS could have a feature to toss the specular map into the shine level instead. I think that's what all the specular maps I have really are anyway, no?
bagginsbill posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 11:14 PM
SSSe is a leftover from me debugging the shader. If you set it to 1 it shows the energy reaching the SSS layer of the shader. Or coming out of it - can't remember.
I thought I made it so that if you have a specular map in the target, that is multiplied with (essentially plugged into) Shine Level. I'll have to check.
It's been a source of confusion on my part as to whether specular maps represent what I call "shine" or "shine level".
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GeneralNutt posted Sat, 05 March 2011 at 11:23 PM Online Now!
I set the gamma correction on specular maps to "custom gamma value 1.0". Is this the right thing to do, treat them like bump maps?
<edit that made no sense, just clarification.>
hborre posted Sun, 06 March 2011 at 6:50 AM
The is correct. Any map that conveys information, such as displacement, bump, normal and transparencies maps should have gamma values of 1. If not, the model will 'bloat' at render.
bopperthijs posted Sun, 06 March 2011 at 11:04 AM
Is this also neccessary for specular maps? Poserpro2010 has a script to change the gamma level of bump, displacement, normal and transparency maps, but not for specular maps.
I can imagine that specularmaps need GC, because you plug them in a lighting node. But I'm not sure.
best regards,
Bopper.
-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?
bagginsbill posted Sun, 06 March 2011 at 11:28 AM
You can't answer "what is the correct gamma" for everything unless you can answer what the units of measurement were and what is the digital representation of the quantity in question.
If the quantity being described is a color, encoded in a gamma-corrected way, based on the observed color you were getting while drawing it on a screen, then it needs to have the gamma you used at the time you created it, in setting it up for use in Poser.
What is the gamma of a 247 HP engine? Meaningless - it has no gamma. We don't gamma correct horsepower. If we were using an image map to record the horsepower of 20,000 engines, we would say the gamma=1 because gamma doesn't apply.
What is the gamma of the number of eggs in my breakfast? Meaningless. If I make a map containing data about how many eggs were consumed in each of the houses in my town today, those numbers would not have a gamma. They are just numbers, to be used as-is. Which means if we wanted to use that data in a shader, we'd set the image gamma = 1.
Now - who can tell me the definition of a specular map? Depending on your answer, I will tell you it has a gamma of 1 or a gamma of 2.2. But I don't know the answer.
If you tell me the specular map is recording the numerical shine value to use in my VSS shader, for each point, then I would say the gamma is 1, i.e. this is not a color I looked at and chose on the basis of visual observation of the color itself. Rather, it would be a color I chose on the basis of the effect it produced after plugging it into the VSS shader. In that case, we would not want it modified.
Suppose I make a map that represents the specular reflectivity of an actual face, not as measured by looking at a photo, but as measured, linearly, but using a scientific device to measure reflectivity. Each point would be some factor between 0% reflective and 100% reflective. Plotting all those points would produce a specular reflectivity map. What is that gamma of such a map? 1.
But what if I took a photo of an actual facial reflection, somehow manipulate it to only contain specular data, in gamma = 2.2 format? Then, by definition, that gamma is 2.2.
There is no right answer. Every map is data. To understand what gamma to use on that map, you must answer the question: What does this data represent and how is it encoded?
Bump and displacement maps are height maps, and by definition represent height, without any gamma. So they must be set to 1 because they were designed to be used as is. They are data, not colors. They happen be to stored in a file that could also be used to store colors, but that is an unimportant fact.
Normal maps are not color either, even though they look colorful when you display them as if they were colors. They are the cosine components of angular deltas. They are meant to be used as is. They do not have a gamma, so to correctly use them, you set gamma = 1. When you display them as normals with the wrong gamma, it is obvious.
Pretty much the only maps we use correctly where gamma not = 1 is the right answer are diffuse color maps, and even then we're not sure. The convention is that color maps in HDR or EXR format are gamma = 1. The convention is also that all JPG are at gamma = 2.2, but I can show you maps where that is not true. You have to know how it was made, and why, and how you're supposed to be using it ACCORDING TO THE PERSON WHO MADE IT, not some standard implied by a particular 3D app.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Latexluv posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 12:28 AM
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
Latexluv posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 12:28 AM
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
Latexluv posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 12:32 AM
I'm getting a loss in the color (saturation?) of the base texture map.
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
msg24_7 posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 3:12 AM
Quote - I'm getting a loss in the color (saturation?) of the base texture map.
I must say, that I like the less saturated much better.
The skintone looks more natural, the distribution/scattering of the hilights looks more natural too.
The hilights on the first render have to much intensity, almost overblown.
Only problem is the light in the nostrils.
Yesterday's the past, tomorrow's the future, but today is a gift. That's why it's called the present.
Vestmann posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 6:21 AM
I agree with msg. bagginsbill said in an earlier post that the shader doesn't behave correctly with when it comes to gamma on/off.
incantrix posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 8:46 AM
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2177554§ion_id=&genre_id=&np
Just a quick test on Rebelmommy's cynthia texture.No tweaks or anything done as yet on it.
Having trouble loading the image for some reason
richardson posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 9:03 AM
@latexluv,
I'm seeing two speculars on eyes and lips. Is it your lights? Agree that cornea specular is the weak link and should be scaled down a bit. Or driven by a reflection. It's a great shader though. Nice milky transparent quality.
richardson posted Mon, 07 March 2011 at 11:48 PM
richardson posted Tue, 08 March 2011 at 10:25 AM
Zaarin posted Tue, 22 March 2011 at 5:00 PM
As one of the ones who PMed Bagginsbill about this, I'm very much so looking forward to this. :)
incantrix posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 4:36 AM
Zaarin posted Sun, 10 April 2011 at 9:36 PM
Any progress on the eye? I'm very eager for its release; I have a Mother's Day image I'm hoping to use it in... :)
Sentinelle posted Mon, 25 April 2011 at 7:37 PM
Quote - Here is a VSS Skin Template shader - work in progress. Load it into Template Skin on a VSS control prop.
The important thing to examine here is how the specular behaves - that's the dominant new thing. I'd like to see results, good or bad, and perhaps comparisons with PR3 using various textures. I don't have a lot of textures, nor a lot of time to test. So if you guys think this shader is wonky, please let me know. It's got quite a few new ideas in it.
Bagginsbill, thanks so much for the PR4 skin shader. The specular effect on the skin is amazing. You're a genius.
Afrodite-Ohki posted Mon, 13 June 2011 at 7:49 PM
B-b-b-b-bookmark!
Great stuff, I'm so eager!
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
zpenumbra posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 11:43 PM
The big problem I was having with the VSS3 was the makeup and eyebrows getting washed out. I don't seem to be having this problem with VSS4. Here's what I have so far:
The texture is Lauren for V4.2 by MocPac, using VSSIndor light Indoor01.
zpenumbra posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 11:44 PM
zpenumbra posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 12:38 AM
hborre posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 7:01 AM
VSSindor Light Indoor? Is this an original light set from BB? IIRC, those light set were incorrectly created, casting a higher intensity than they were suppose to. Try decreasing intensity values or create your own. The difference between VSS3 and VSS4 is that VSS4 has auto gamma correction built into the shaders. VSS3 does not. That might explain the washout effect in PP2010 if Gc is active in your render settings.
zpenumbra posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 3:09 PM
Ok. I'll try some other light settings and try again.
isikol posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 8:31 AM
hi there....is there a way for someone who is not good in technicall terms very much for a small step by step guide on how to use VSS shaders?:crying:
please?
hborre posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 8:55 AM
Have you read BB's comprehensive manual yet? It is a bit outdated but it can get you started. Also, there are many post available in the forum covering specific aspects of VSS. What exactly do you want to know, and have you attempted to use VSS at all?
isikol posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 8:59 AM
yes im doing this right now...attempting...
but i can't search the entire forum...the main article has 98(?) or so pages? !!
just need some first steps...and i have so many questions...for example ..i cant find VSS4 in Bagginsbills pages...
sorry for the rush comment...im in a small pressure here :)
hborre posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 9:16 AM
VSSPR4 as an actual prop does not exist. The link below points to page 2 of this post which contains the replacement shader set for the Skin Template of VSSPR3. Hence, this becomes VSSPR4 WIP when you save back the prop into the library.
isikol posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 9:20 AM
thank you so much...i will take a look...
hborre posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 9:23 AM
I will be stepping out for a doctor's appointment shortly, and won't be back for awhile. Let me know exactly what information you would like to cover, perhaps I can put together some illustrations to cover the basics. However, this will require some time to assemble.
Ricdan posted Thu, 27 October 2011 at 3:29 PM
Quote - Here is a VSS Skin Template shader - work in progress. Load it into Template Skin on a VSS control prop.
The important thing to examine here is how the specular behaves - that's the dominant new thing. I'd like to see results, good or bad, and perhaps comparisons with PR3 using various textures. I don't have a lot of textures, nor a lot of time to test. So if you guys think this shader is wonky, please let me know. It's got quite a few new ideas in it.
Hiya Folks My first ever post over here so be gentle with me. I have just started to use Poser 8 so I am not that clued up on the terminology and what Poser can do yet. I have managed to apply VSSPR3 no problem at all, reappling the displacement maps and adjusting things learned via the main VSS thread and manual. Thanks for the PDF btw it was a great help. I am loving the results so far and very impressed BB.
OK matter at hand I have no idea how to use the VSS4.txt file in the quote above. What and how do I use this to update VSSPR3. Can some kind soul spell it out for this Poser newcomer. I have a lot of Daz Studio experence and have been playing with Poser but just not at this level. :D
bagginsbill posted Thu, 27 October 2011 at 4:22 PM
Remove the .txt extension so that it is a Poser material. Place this file in a Poser runtime under the material category - anywhere you want. Something under XYZ/Runtime/Libraries/Materials/...
What it contains is a new template skin shader for loading into the control prop. You load the material into the prop as if you were loading any material into any prop or figure. Which, I assume, is something you've never done.
So here is how:
Select the VSS control prop as the current actor.
Click the Material tab.
Click the Advanced Tab.
Use the second material room pulldown, at the top, to select the Template Skin material.
Navigate to your library to find the PR4 mt5 file you saved and double click it. This will load it into the control prop.
You can now Synchronize as usual.
You may want to save the resulting PR4 modified prop.
Go back to Pose room.
Select the current actor to be the VSS control prop.
In the library choose the Prop category.
Select a folder (or make one first for your own VSS things.)
Click the + button at the bottom of the library to save the current actor as a prop. Enter a good name.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Ricdan posted Thu, 27 October 2011 at 6:26 PM
Thanks BB. Since I made that post I went away to do some homework.
After a few hours it dawned on me what I had to do. SO I did just what you said, removed the .txt and saved. Placed it in the VSS/Libaraies/Materails folder. Went in the Mat Room selected the Vss Prop, scrolled down to find the Template Skin and applied the new MT5. I am so please with myself know. :D And very impressed with the results. I prefer 4 over 3.
I have made a new Vss Prop under under your instructions thank you for that also.
I take it that all displacement maps don't get connected when appling VSS? It is not a problem in reconnecting them but it is sure nice to know if it is the case. For peace of mind that is. :D
Also I noticed a Lip Mask as a floating node, is this normal and should I be using it. I don't see an issue with rending though I haven't gone in that close to the face yet. :D
Had a look at your wiring, how you managed to figure all that out is beyond me. Yes I realise it is 3 years work but still, mind blowing.
I will report back when I have some more testing and adjusting. So far it is looking like a very nice addition to the Poser tool set.
No I have never applied a mat while in the Mat room, always in the Preview Mode. I didn't know we could until I did some lateral thinking. Well I am new to Poser, real new. :D
Again thanks for replying so quickly. Off to play some more. I am so liking this. I would buy Pro in a heart beat.
Ricdan posted Mon, 31 October 2011 at 2:10 PM
I had to make a number of adjustsments to VSS to suit the skin which wasn't a surprise as I soon learnt it is hard to make one that fits all in this game. But using the template to change all the skin surfaces is so easy. I just need to remember to add displacement after I have sycronised for the last time. :D
BB will you be finishing VSS toward the Pro version you mentioned or since 9/2012 has SSS will you be scaping it?
hborre posted Mon, 31 October 2011 at 3:53 PM
Displacement nodes can be easily added directly to the VSS templates before synchronization, you just need to auto rename everything before you sync. I don't belive BB will be scrapping VSS because of SSS in P9/PP2012. A new simplified template has been developed and can be found @ RuntimeDNA. It is fondly referred to as post 240.
Ricdan posted Mon, 31 October 2011 at 4:24 PM
Thanks for that info. If you have the link to that thread I would be much appreciated. I have serched RDNA and google but for the life of me can't find the thread you are refering to.
Kalypso posted Mon, 31 October 2011 at 5:37 PM Online Now! Site Admin
Here ya go, last post on this page: http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63200-SSS-on-Human-Figures/page12
Btw, that's a great render! The only thing I find that distracts me is the seam on his wrist and maybe the transition in the neck. It seems the "old" skin is not so well blended at these points. But I haven't seen any skin that was old looking all over. Texturers tend to just pay attention to the face and hands unfortunately so maybe a procedural shader is the way to go in this case.
Ricdan posted Mon, 31 October 2011 at 5:48 PM
Nice comments and thanks for that. Yeah I see what you mean about the wrist. I will redo that thanks.
As for the neck, I hear you on that score I wish more content makers would provide a full body of age.. I may go and try to make some displacement maps to give him some wear. :D I am new to Poser so procedual could be out of my reach at the moment.
Again thanks for making me think a little more about certain aspects.
Ricdan posted Mon, 31 October 2011 at 7:57 PM
Well I went away and moved the wrist, forearm and sholder to a better position and added some wrinkles to the dispalcement map. I think I have managed to get a nice transition going down the neck from under his chin. See how the render looks tomorrow.
Again thanks for the constructive comments, it was a great help.
Kalypso posted Tue, 01 November 2011 at 3:52 AM Online Now! Site Admin
Looking forward to seeing the revised version :) In the meantime you may find this interesting reading as BagginsBill discusses elderly skin via procedural shading:
http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?64446-Elderly-Skin
Ricdan posted Tue, 01 November 2011 at 7:19 AM
Thanks Kalypso for the link. I thought this comment to be very interesting though.
*"What would be wonderful is if somebody who is actually talented at drawing, and has a tablet, would create a proper bump/displacement map. Draw it, not derived from the color map". *
I will make sure I read and digest that thread. It could be a great addition to Bump and displacement maps.
Ricdan posted Thu, 10 November 2011 at 2:57 PM
bagginsbill posted Thu, 10 November 2011 at 9:16 PM
That looks great. I saw in your previous post something about adding displacement after synchronizing.
If you want a skin shader to have a feature that gets used on your figure, then put it in the skin shader Template Skin. So - you want displacement, add an Image_Map node connected to displacement in Template Skin. Set it how you want it. But do not put an image in. Use Auto Rename Images to get it to be named Displacement Map. Then when you synchronize, whatever displacement map is on the figure will be used.
In case there is no displacement map, you want the displacement to be shut off. VSS will use the Image_Map Background value (or nodes plugged in there) to define what to use for that image when it is not populated in the target.
And I did not completely scrap the idea of a UI for VSS - just have no time to do it.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Ricdan posted Fri, 11 November 2011 at 7:01 AM
Thanks for the info bagginsbill I have copy and pasted all that for safe keeping.
Time is always an issue with these things I hear you loud and clear. I like VSS as it is. :D
