Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Well last time i asked about the new Poser comin' out i was told "don't worry about it" and in my neighborhood when someone says "don't worry about it" ya don't. 'Specially if Bulldog Mac says it.

Whoa...BlenRig looks good. How come his winkydink ain't rigged?

Point taken but honestly any poser user who wants to use those "genesis Figures"
better be prepared to switch to DAZ studio4 just as One would have to move to blender to use their new rig system.

Thats the reality

Cheers

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

I'd say there is a very good chance you will be able to use the Genesis figures in Poser 9.

Coldrake

I'm sure you can use it in Poser, but most likely with limitations.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I say it will be implemented in 9. Financialy for Daz it would be silly to cut their market in half.

I think enough hints have been dropped here and over at the other place that SM and DAZ have been talking and that the next gen DAZ figures will work in (future) versions of Poser.

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

If most of one's renders will be of clothed figures, the refinements in the mesh - which certainly produce more realistic bends - are not really a must-have for now.

Eternal Hobbyist

Someone does CLOTHED renders?

Quote - If most of one's renders will be of clothed figures, the refinements in the mesh - which certainly produce more realistic bends - are not really a must-have for now.

There will also be refinements in the clothing, which will be better fitting and also have more realistic bends.

Coldrake

I think it will take quite some time before the new figures really take off. Compatibility with Poser is definitely one thing. Another is that it will be a while before there's enough content/converted content for it. By that time, things will have found a way to become stable.

The majoriy of users are not going to jump to new figures overnight. I for one can't even work with Daz Studio, since it doesn't allow custom created dynamic clothing, which I use for pretty much all clothing.

A year from now, everyone will have doubts about Genesis 2.0 characters working with Poser 10.

I like these discussions.

Will all airplanes fly on bio fuel?

Will wind provide all our energy?

Will figures work in?

Will rigging improve?

Will clothes fit?

Will Victoria XYZ wash my clothes?
Will she make me breakfest?
Keep me warm on cold nights?

One can dream, no?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Just to get back on track.
Poser is still the "main" software.

Anyone building something will make it compatible. One way or another.

Dsynamic clothes will be easyer to convert.
Conforming clothes will have more problems to adapt to the rigging.
Just my 2 cents.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Wow, that blender video is impressive. Makes me seriously consider giving it a try, even though the time investiment would be high in terms of learning the interface and everything else.

Hioushi, the new Blender is much easier to learn than the previous versions!

The Genesis figures look impressive, but not impressive enough to make me move to Daz Studio.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

I'm sure that when (if) the Genesis figure comes out it will be met with the same universal acclaim that Victoria 1, Victoria 3, Victoria 4, and Michael 4 were met with.

cough

video is private? Thats what i get when trying to access the genesis figure video mentioned in the first post of this thread.

Yup, video is private. Maybe we are not meant to see it yet.

Quote - Just to get back on track.
Poser is still the "main" software.

Anyone building something will make it compatible. One way or another.
..........

"* Compatibility with other DAZ 3D applications, such as Carrara and Bryce will be available in the next several months. For compatibility with Poser, or other software packages, please contact their respective developers to express your interest in their support of our latest technologies"

Make sure to Contact Smith Micro with your "requests"

Cheers**
**

Quote - video is private? Thats what i get when trying to access the genesis figure video mentioned in the first post of this thread.

That's weird, it hasn't been private for the last several days.

Coldrake

Yeah, when I asked if Miki3 would be supported in DS4, I was told that Miki3 would not work because of her rigging. One then wonders if DAZ prefers a one way street when it comes to figures working in programs.

The genesis figure bending looks great, a good step towards more realistic body movement. But I'm sticking with Poser and never touching DAZ.

Quote - Yeah, when I asked if Miki3 would be supported in DS4, I was told that Miki3 would not work because of her rigging. One then wonders if DAZ prefers a one way street when it comes to figures working in programs.

I hardly think they would go to the trouble of adding rigging support for a single figure.

Coldrake

Says it's private and I have to get permission to view it.

It was a limited preview. It'll return though with more.

Quote - > Quote - Yeah, when I asked if Miki3 would be supported in DS4, I was told that Miki3 would not work because of her rigging. One then wonders if DAZ prefers a one way street when it comes to figures working in programs.

I hardly think they would go to the trouble of adding rigging support for a single figure.

Coldrake

Isn't that essentially what they're asking SM to do? The Genesis figure is one figure that can morph into male and female models, right? Then again, for all we know, the P9 figures may ALL have Miki3's rigging. I would think a little reciprocity is in order here. If DAZ wants SM to support their new technology, then shouldn't DAZ do the same?

Quote - If DAZ wants SM to support their new technology, then shouldn't DAZ do the same?

Why???
DAZ has it own increasingly "Closed Garden" Program which, sans 3rd party plugins,
(aniMate+, Reality to LUX etc),.. DS is Garbage.
But they Make sure their Figure tech remains
tied to using DAZ studio....not poser
It seems to me that its the poser users who want/need
S/M the Support DAZ Technology Not DAZ itself so much.

Cheers

Quote - > Quote - If DAZ wants SM to support their new technology, then shouldn't DAZ do the same?

Why???
DAZ has it own increasingly "Closed Garden" Program which, sans 3rd party plugins,
(aniMate+, Reality to LUX etc),.. DS is Garbage.
But they Make sure their Figure tech remains
tied to using DAZ studio....not poser
It seems to me that its the poser users who want/need
S/M the Support DAZ Technology Not DAZ itself so much.

Cheers

I don't see it. It's in DAZ's own interest to have the Gen 5 tech compatible in Poser, not Poser's or Poser users. Miki3 aside, Smith Micro does not make it's money off of her. Plus in order for even DAZ4 users to use Gen five they have to scrap DS3 or older.

Here's the deal though, are vendor's going to migrate to the new Gen5 characters or are they going to stay where the money is at? If they move to GEN5 then essentially their market is cut is half, because if G5 doesn't work in Poser guess who won't be buying new products from the vendors? But Poser and DS users can always continue to use V4, V3 and Miki3. And that's not even including the users of Carrara and Vue.

And if the lack of support for Ryan and Alyson has shown anything, the vendors will stick with the figures that make them money.

Be realistic

Most are way past "the point of no return" in V4 investment.

Any "New" model will have to be a "VAST" improvement to change that.

Let us be ckear:

Recent models had

-None to bad topology

-Way to many useless poly's or poly saturation in the wrong bodyparts.
Who cares for a 5000 poly ear?
That will be covered with hair for 95% of the time?

-Where a texturing nightmare.

Correct those 3, and any new model has a chance to survive.
To become a hit.. ?

Do not know, but it would have to be a major-major improvement in all deptments.

I have seen the movie, liked the rigging.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

"I don't see it. It's in DAZ's own interest to have the Gen 5 tech compatible in Poser, not Poser's or Poser users. .........."

You Keep repeating that
But they bluntly state
they only plan to support THIER
programs ( bryce & Carrara) with this new figure type.
and politely suggest that you poser users take it up with
S/M.

not my opinion here ,as I dont Care, just quoting from the DAZ Web site.

Cheers

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Quote - Be realistic

Most are way past "the point of no return" in V4 investment.

Any "New" model will have to be a "VAST" improvement to change that.

Let us be ckear:

Recent models had

-None to bad topology

-Way to many useless poly's or poly saturation in the wrong bodyparts.
Who cares for a 5000 poly ear?
That will be covered with hair for 95% of the time?

-Where a texturing nightmare.

Correct those 3, and any new model has a chance to survive.
To become a hit.. ?

Do not know, but it would have to be a major-major improvement in all deptments.

I have seen the movie, liked the rigging.

Normally you would be right, but that's not how the poser/ds content market works. This market is dominated by hypes. If you can create a big enough hype around content, people will buy..... regardless if the need it or not. There is no point of return in this market. V4 wasn't a vast improvement over V3 at all, but still lot's of people bought it. Same will happen to V5, people will just buy it. DAZ is the master of hypes, they sell scores of people items each day they don't need at all or ever will use. It's the way this market works and if you know how to operate in it, you can sell anything.

Create a hype, make it look appealing, tell every they need it and make them believe they miss out on something and are left behind if they don't buy it.

What the eye sees, the runtime wants, it's as simple as that. It's not a matter of need or lack, it's a matter of what appeals to the beholder.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote -
"I don't see it. It's in DAZ's own interest to have the Gen 5 tech compatible in Poser, not Poser's or Poser users. .........."

You Keep repeating that
But they bluntly state
they only plan to support THIER
programs ( bryce & Carrara) with this new figure type.
and politely suggest that you poser users take it up with
S/M.

not my opinion here ,as I dont Care, just quoting from the DAZ Web site.

Cheers

Well, that's not quite what they said. Will the new figure work in Bryce and Carrara? Eventually. But will the sales from Bryce, Carrara, and DS4 make up for what they'll lose if the figure doesn't work in Poser? I don't think so. So that's why I keep repeating myself. Poser users may wish they had the GEN5 figure, but how many of them will switch to DS4 just so they can use it?

Quote - Well, that's not quite what they said. Will the new figure work in Bryce and Carrara? Eventually. But will the sales from Bryce, Carrara, and DS4 make up for what they'll lose if the figure doesn't work in Poser? I don't think so....

and they dont say they will work in poser "eventually"
nor do they say anything about sales of bryce or carrara
affecting their Figure development plans.
I would bet that Bryce and Carrara
have not been money makers for them since they rescued them from certain Death years ago.

(See below...again)

" Compatibility with other DAZ 3D applications, such as Carrara and Bryce will be available in the next several months. For compatibility with Poser, or other software packages, please contact their respective developers to express your interest in their support of our latest technologies"*

This is like when your building super says
"take it up with the owner/Landlord"

Translation= I/we are NOT Doing it.

Cheers

Quote - > Quote - Well, that's not quite what they said. Will the new figure work in Bryce and Carrara? Eventually. But will the sales from Bryce, Carrara, and DS4 make up for what they'll lose if the figure doesn't work in Poser? I don't think so....

and they dont say they will work in poser "eventually"
nor do they say anything about sales of bryce or carrara
affecting their Figure development plans.
I would bet that Bryce and Carrara
have not been money makers for them since they rescued them from certain Death years ago.

(See below...again)

" Compatibility with other DAZ 3D applications, such as Carrara and Bryce will be available in the next several months. For compatibility with Poser, or other software packages, please contact their respective developers to express your interest in their support of our latest technologies"*

This is like when your building super says
"take it up with the owner/Landlord"

Translation= I/we are NOT Doing it.

Cheers

Okay, now, I'm confused as I don't quite see how we differ. Aside from you saying you're not going to ask SM to make Poser compatible. I don't really care that much, but if SM does make Poser compatible, I'll definitely take advantage of it. If not, i won't lose any sleep over it either.

Quote - > Quote - Be realistic

Most are way past "the point of no return" in V4 investment.

Any "New" model will have to be a "VAST" improvement to change that.

Let us be ckear:

Recent models had

-None to bad topology

-Way to many useless poly's or poly saturation in the wrong bodyparts.
Who cares for a 5000 poly ear?
That will be covered with hair for 95% of the time?

-Where a texturing nightmare.

Correct those 3, and any new model has a chance to survive.
To become a hit.. ?

Do not know, but it would have to be a major-major improvement in all deptments.

I have seen the movie, liked the rigging.

Normally you would be right, but that's not how the poser/ds content market works. This market is dominated by hypes. If you can create a big enough hype around content, people will buy..... regardless if the need it or not. There is no point of return in this market. V4 wasn't a vast improvement over V3 at all, but still lot's of people bought it. Same will happen to V5, people will just buy it. DAZ is the master of hypes, they sell scores of people items each day they don't need at all or ever will use. It's the way this market works and if you know how to operate in it, you can sell anything.

Create a hype, make it look appealing, tell every they need it and make them believe they miss out on something and are left behind if they don't buy it.

What the eye sees, the runtime wants, it's as simple as that. It's not a matter of need or lack, it's a matter of what appeals to the beholder.

V4 was Free therefore the market was stimulated into moving in that direction

You might as well PAY attention, because you can't afford FREE speech

Until D/S plays well with Vue I can't consider it. If Daz wants to be knuckle heads and rip a major part of their sales out then let them. They will not be the first blockheaded company to slit their own throats becaue they think they are all that and a bag of chips. I am in agreement with many here that daz isn't that silly or stupid to knock poser users out of the mix. Poser still has a larger user base then D/S....for now.

As far as D/S I'd consider using it if it played well with Vue and while everyone goes on about D/S being free they fail to remember that one has to purchase all the silly butt modules to get to function closely to poser. But that is neither here or there but the point being if Daz wants to commit business suicide so be it people at the top or always right until it all falls apart then they blame someone else.

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Quote - Isn't that essentially what they're asking SM to do? The Genesis figure is one figure that can morph into male and female models, right?

And into animals like dogs, cats, werewolves. But since V4's ugly head and body is still in use in the demo, Genesis can't be ready yet just as a base human mesh.

Quote - ......the first blockheaded company to slit their own throats becaue they think they are all that and a bag of chips. I am in agreement with many here that daz isn't that silly or stupid to knock poser users out of the mix. Poser still has a larger user base ......

I am not sure I believe this often repeated
Mantra that a new Vicky that is %100
not usable in poser is "business suicide" for DAZ inc. they do sell other models both figures and props

Its funny but in a "normal market" with "normal consumers" it should have the unintended effect on theolder V4/M4 Market that Sony's Dull headed strategem has had on the Sony PSP hand held.

The sony PSP has a Rabid ,Loyal Following
....and why??
because third party dev teams create and share
an alternative Firmware/OS and content superior
to the factory OS in Many innovative ways
it is called "homebrew"
and what does sony do?? they intentionally break
your ability to install "homebrew" with each new model release.

The result is a ridiculously $high$$ used PSP market price being sustained by the demand for older model PSP's that can still run " homebrew".
and lackluster sales of the new models until its been hacked to run home brew

But Alas the PSP is a tangible piece of hardware
not so easily Discarded because some hypester spams your Email box with pictures of the new must-haves Like DAZ, Autodesk,Maxon Luxology et al Does

Cheers

Quote - > Quote - Well, that's not quite what they said. Will the new figure work in Bryce and Carrara? Eventually. But will the sales from Bryce, Carrara, and DS4 make up for what they'll lose if the figure doesn't work in Poser? I don't think so....

and they dont say they will work in poser "eventually"
nor do they say anything about sales of bryce or carrara
affecting their Figure development plans.
I would bet that Bryce and Carrara
have not been money makers for them since they rescued them from certain Death years ago.

(See below...again)

" Compatibility with other DAZ 3D applications, such as Carrara and Bryce will be available in the next several months. For compatibility with Poser, or other software packages, please contact their respective developers to express your interest in their support of our latest technologies"*

This is like when your building super says
"take it up with the owner/Landlord"

Translation= I/we are NOT Doing it.

Cheers

So? Curious Labs had an equivalent statement regarding the face room when it first came out. Said statements have been posted by E-on and CL in the eternal Vue-Poser communication brouhaha. =Every= company says 'It's the other guys responsibility' whenever something new comes out. It's no more than legally covering their butts vis-a-vis support expectations. You know that as well as anyone. The current economy has caused a lot of people to cut back on their new shiny purchases. Ghu knows I have all the Vickies, Stephanies, Lauras, Mikes, Natalias, Apollos, and quite a few more to tide my need for B list actors over for some time. Maybe the Genesis figure will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But if it is limited to one app set that would require folks to trash their pipelines, then it isn't going to go anywhere. None of the Poser type companies have a reputation for openness and honesty during the development cycle.....usually for good reasons. There are just too many users of Poser related apps to simply toss them aside in the current economy. Unless they are taking DS4 into the pay for area. And you know the competition there that it would have to stand up against.....

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Well, that's not quite what they said. Will the new figure work in Bryce and Carrara? Eventually. But will the sales from Bryce, Carrara, and DS4 make up for what they'll lose if the figure doesn't work in Poser? I don't think so....

and they dont say they will work in poser "eventually"
nor do they say anything about sales of bryce or carrara
affecting their Figure development plans.
I would bet that Bryce and Carrara
have not been money makers for them since they rescued them from certain Death years ago.

(See below...again)

" Compatibility with other DAZ 3D applications, such as Carrara and Bryce will be available in the next several months. For compatibility with Poser, or other software packages, please contact their respective developers to express your interest in their support of our latest technologies"*

This is like when your building super says
"take it up with the owner/Landlord"

Translation= I/we are NOT Doing it.

Cheers

So? Curious Labs had an equivalent statement regarding the face room when it first came out. Said statements have been posted by E-on and CL in the eternal Vue-Poser communication brouhaha. =Every= company says 'It's the other guys responsibility' whenever something new comes out. It's no more than legally covering their butts vis-a-vis support expectations. You know that as well as anyone. The current economy has caused a lot of people to cut back on their new shiny purchases. Ghu knows I have all the Vickies, Stephanies, Lauras, Mikes, Natalias, Apollos, and quite a few more to tide my need for B list actors over for some time. Maybe the Genesis figure will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But if it is limited to one app set that would require folks to trash their pipelines, then it isn't going to go anywhere. None of the Poser type companies have a reputation for openness and honesty during the development cycle.....usually for good reasons. There are just too many users of Poser related apps to simply toss them aside in the current economy. Unless they are taking DS4 into the pay for area. And you know the competition there that it would have to stand up against.....

They are. They just posted today that there will be four flavors of DS:

*"The only thing finalized is DAZ Studio Standard. *

*We are still thinking about what to include in *
DAZ Studio Online (beginner web app)
DAZ Studio Express
(standard fits in here)
DAZ Studio Advanced
and
DAZ Studio Pro[

*"we do have a good working idea of what each of these includes... but it wouldnt be a good idea for me to tell you unless its wrtitten in stone. *

Suffice to say that many things that were once ala carte may not be anymore in the higher level offerings."

I agree on some of your points wolf359 but sony and Daz are two different animals. Sony is huge where as Daz is a tiny outfit in comparison abd only deals with one type of product. Daz doesn't sell computers, home theaters, TV's and other large tag consumer goods world wide. However, Daz is too small to just throw business away and while they do sell other things their figures have always been their mainstay because no other company that deals in 3d content has been able to create figures as well as Daz has. Most people that buy from Daz, including myself, buy the figures and all the content to go with them. I don't seen Daz as anything else then a content provider because they are no where near being able to run with the big dogs in software.

To cut people out of their content or to make people buy programs that is able to use their content especially in a hobby market isn't smart on their part. As Dale B pointed out not in this economy and I don't see this economy getting better anytime soon. People stapped for cash are not going to ditch all their content and apps just to start all over. Maybe the fortunate few could but not the masses. I seriously doubt Daz is penny wise and dollar foolish.

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Quote - I agree on some of your points wolf359 but sony and Daz are two different animals. Sony is huge where as Daz is a tiny outfit in comparison abd only deals with one type of product. Daz doesn't sell computers, home theaters, TV's and other large tag consumer goods world wide. However, Daz is too small to just throw business away and while they do sell other things their figures have always been their mainstay because no other company that deals in 3d content has been able to create figures as well as Daz has. Most people that buy from Daz, including myself, buy the figures and all the content to go with them. I don't seen Daz as anything else then a content provider because they are no where near being able to run with the big dogs in software.

To cut people out of their content or to make people buy programs that is able to use their content especially in a hobby market isn't smart on their part. As Dale B pointed out not in this economy and I don't see this economy getting better anytime soon. People stapped for cash are not going to ditch all their content and apps just to start all over. Maybe the fortunate few could but not the masses. I seriously doubt Daz is penny wise and dollar foolish.

I pointed out earlier that even if DAZ can afford to alienate their Poser users, most likely the vendors can't. I hear so many of them whining now about how they can barely pay their bills. I just don't see where they'll drop a successful V4 figure to go along with a figure that would only have half the customers.

It WOULD be interesting though to see how Content Paradise would take advantage of such a market split though, assuming they would. Bagginsbill said they're not stupid. Unless he was just talking about the developers. :biggrin:

Quote - > Quote - Isn't that essentially what they're asking SM to do? The Genesis figure is one figure that can morph into male and female models, right?

And into animals like dogs, cats, werewolves. But since V4's ugly head and body is still in use in the demo, Genesis can't be ready yet just as a base human mesh.

In the beginning of the clip they say they Dialled in V4 into the Genesis model. Hense why it looks like V4. This was done in order to show a direct comparison of the bending using v4 and the genesis model as an example.

DAZ can't write Smith Micro's code, that is why they said take it up with the developers. They did give them the knowledge to make it work, what Smith Mircor does with it is up to them. That is all they are saying.

Quote - DAZ can't write Smith Micro's code, that is why they said take it up with the developers. They did give them the knowledge to make it work, what Smith Mircor does with it is up to them. That is all they are saying.

Well, that's not ALL they're saying. DAZ Rand has stated that they, DAZ, wants to change the Poser community dynamic. meaning that they want Poser to have to follow their technological developments instead of the other way around. So Miki 3 STILL won't work in DS4 even though she's been out long enough that they could have coded her in. But they want to make us, the Poser users whine to Smith Micro about including weightmapping in the next version of Poser. Which is fine if that's where the technology is heading anyway. I'm just saying that in the spirit of getting along with each other, a little reciprocisity on DAZ's part wouldn't hurt.

Well, if Smith Micro gave them the information that might be useful but we don't know if they did. The thing is I don't see anyone really using the capsule joints anyway so it would be a lot of work to work with few people.

Quote - Well, if Smith Micro gave them the information that might be useful but we don't know if they did. The thing is I don't see anyone really using the capsule joints anyway so it would be a lot of work to work with few people.

All I can say to that is that Miki3 still seems to be getting support from the vendors even though the DS people can't use her. And judging from past sales performance, it's probably safe to say more people would have bought her if they could use her. But like I've said earlier, new technology or not, I'm not going to switch software just to use one figure. Especially when I've got a whole stable of them now.

Miki3 is not even THAT good, I mean, her bendings are far behind the new Genesis figure, so I don't see why Daz should put any effort on supporting it.

So far, the one implementing new technology has been Daz, so they are the one to follow right now, not SM.

I agree about switching software for figures and I don't like DS but we don't really know the facts on if they gave the information to DAZ for the coding in advance of the release of any of the figures that use the capsule joints. We do know that DAZ gave the information to SM.

And, from what I have seen and from what I have used, the capsule joints don't seem to be much better than the old circle ones.

"Well, that's not ALL they're saying. DAZ Rand has stated that they, DAZ, wants to change the Poser community dynamic. meaning that they want Poser to have to follow their technological developments instead of the other way around...."

Well They have the right to pursue whatever technological
path they feel is in their interest Just as Apple inc. Did when they chose HTML5 over Flash for their portable devices to the chagrin of many indie game developers,Whatever Changes that May occur in some groups "community Dynamic" is just part of life in the Modern age

Daz is merely a 3D content company Making Choices for their product line.... thats the reality of all this

A fully Functional "Vicky" in Your Pet program/platform is
just a 3D model option....not a Moral obligation upon Daz or some Constitutionally Mandated Civil Right.

Cheers

http://www.3dworldmag.com/2010/12/07/28683/

Quote - "Well, that's not ALL they're saying. DAZ Rand has stated that they, DAZ, wants to change the Poser community dynamic. meaning that they want Poser to have to follow their technological developments instead of the other way around...."

Well They have the right to pursue whatever technological
path they feel is in their interest Just as Apple inc. Did when they chose HTML5 over Flash for their portable devices to the chagrin of many indie game developers,Whatever Changes that May occur in some groups "community Dynamic" is just part of life in the Modern age

Daz is merely a 3D content company Making Choices for their product line.... thats the reality of all this

A fully Functional "Vicky" in Your Pet program/platform is
just a 3D model option....not a Moral obligation upon Daz or some Constitutionally Mandated Civil Right.

Cheers

I never said it was. What I am saying is that whether the next version of Poser contains weightmapping or not, unless DS has something spectacular under the hood (and so far I see no evidence of that) I'm sticking with Poser and the figures I already have.

Wow, so much speculation, so little actual knowledge (the thread as a whole, not any one post in particular). The worst part is that there have been statements made (as well as a couple of non-statements by people in the know) that point in the other direction (i.e: Poser will be getting weightmap rigging in upcoming versions), yet everyone wants to believe the most doomsday version of events possible.

Has anyone here even tried the DAZ|Studio 4 betas or release candidate? No? Well don't let a lack of facts get in your way; carry on whining. Also, Poser is not art, V4 is significantly more attractive than V3, who was marginally more attractive than V2.

Also, I much prefer Poser to DAZ|Studio, but the times, they are a changin'.

In conclusion: the world didn't end today, contrary to popular belief. Please remove your tinfoil hats and step away from the kitten!

Also, the new Genesis figure completely kills everything that has come before. The rigging is nearly perfect, and user add-ons will close that gap even more once D|S4 has been out for a while (and once Poser 9/Pro 2011/12 are out, the sky's the limit).

Yeah, I think it's best not to speculate before we know what's coming. All we can really do is wait until Poser 9 is here. Any speculation beforehand is not only probably going to be wrong, but it's really started some anger-mongering that's sorta silly when we know nothing. We don't need yet another excuse to perpetuate the Poser vs D|S thing, especially when those excuses are likely to be erroneous in this case.

Laurie

Quote - Also, the new Genesis figure completely kills everything that has come before. The rigging is nearly perfect, and user add-ons will close that gap even more once D|S4 has been out for a while (and once Poser 9/Pro 2011/12 are out, the sky's the limit).

But gee, aren't you speculating there? You don't know all that for a fact now, do ya?

I never said, anything was set in stone, and in fact, all of my posts were based on the supposition that Poser doesn't adopt weightmapping in the next version.

Bagginsbill never actually SAID that weightmapping would be in the next version of Poser. He also said that the developers were smart people. My take on this hasn't changed since DAZ first announced that they were developing Studio four versions of Poser ago. Why?

Pretending for a moment that I know nothing, I'm curious about WM in the general non-hobbyist CG world, versus what we will have.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood some points.

Daz trademarked the name "Triax" (TM) in conjunction with DS4. It refers to having 3 independent rotational weights for each joint, one per axis. This implies that the larger CG world has always used only one weight per joint. Is that the case? Is using a separate vertex weight per joint*axis a new idea? If the rest of CG apps in the world use only one weight per joint, then doesn't this ensure that the Genesis figure is not compatibly rigged for apps like Maya, etc.? If it isn't a new idea, then what's the point of crowing about playing me too - like me giving a proprietary name to "glass of water".
Is "Triax" (TM) actually useful? Does it make a meaningful improvement over "Monax" (TM I made that up). And if it doesn't really make a difference, is it worth tripling the memory requirements to hold all that vertex weight data in memory? How often do you really want the weight of each axis to be different? If it's rare, I would think that it would be better to use Poser's strategy of multiple influencers per joint. This way, you start with a single weight map, and for the few joints where you need unique values for a second or third axis, you would then stack a single-axis weight.
Genesis seems to be one big mesh - no groups. Does this mean that each weight map (per joint) must include data for every single vertex in the whole figure? Isn't that horribly wasteful? Is it sensible to have influence data for every joint * every axis * every vertex? Let see - approximately 45 joints in a figure, times 3 axes, gives us 135 numbers that must be kept per vertex. Even if all that is kept in single precision floats, not doubles, that's around 38 megabytes of data! I hope to see some amazingly realistic human shapes for that cost.
SM is notorious for not knowing how to use its own tech to best effect, and therefore creating a community perception that the tech is far less than adequate. As far as I can tell, Miki3 does not demonstrate at all what is possible with the new multi-zone sphere+capsule system introduced in P8+PP2010, the system that Daz has refused to embrace. Instead, they claim that Poser tech is holding them back. Meanwhile, I notice also that last year, Maya (an app that is over $3000) just introduced the same or similar multi-zone capsule shape rigging that Poser did, and they talk about it as a way to seriously avoid having to weight map for realistic joints - that it is a step beyond painted weight mapping. What's the truth here? Any rigging experts care to comment?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

1) Daz trademarked the name "Triax" (TM) in conjunction with DS4. It refers to having 3 independent rotational weights for each joint, one per axis. This implies that the larger CG world has always used only one weight per joint. Is that the case?

* *

The larger CG world creates custom weight maps to handle the bending requirement of a figure in a scene. You can trade out weight maps when needed. If a character is lifting his arms over his head to shoot a basket, chances are that the weight map that favors the ‘arms down’ pose isn’t going to work so well. You can use other methods to steer the geometry correctly when the figure needs to make a wide range of movement. These tools resemble magnets or morphs.

If you just had one weight map, I think the figure might be less flexible than a Poser figure, in the sense that you set separate falloff zones for each joint rotation in Poser. The one advantage is that you would be able to control the falloff more precisely with the weight map.

* *

Is using a separate vertex weight per jointaxis a new idea?*

* *

Doing this in an automated way for a generic figure designed to do anything the user intends is probably a new idea. The Maya 2011 manual doesn’t mention anything like this.

is it worth tripling the memory requirements to hold all that vertex weight data in memory?

It depends on how well it works. I’m not sure that the memory requirements would be any greater than the triple vertex data already defined by falloff spheres.

I would think that it would be better to use Poser's strategy of multiple influencers per joint. This way, you start with a single weight map, and for the few joints where you need unique values for a second or third axis, you would then stack a single-axis weight.

* *

I would be surprised if you couldn’t customize this sort of thing. Currently, rigging doesn’t even demand that you use a falloff zone. Of course, with the super-morphing version 5 figures, there may be special demands.

Genesis seems to be one big mesh - no groups. Does this mean that each weight map (per joint) must include data for every single vertex in the whole figure?

* *

Probably not. Standard weight mapping for a joint only affects the area it affects. There would be no need to hold the weights for the toes in a finger joint.

I notice also that last year, Maya (an app that is over $3000) just introduced the same or similar multi-zone capsule shape rigging that Poser did, and they talk about it as a way to seriously avoid having to weight map for realistic joints.

* *

Yes. There are other uses to. You can use Maya’s capsules to set up a weight map. You can also use the capsules in combination with weight maps.

Personally, I’ve found the capsule zone solved an issue I was having that was almost impossible to do correctly with spheres. Of course, people have to consider that if they release a figure that uses capsule zones, Daz Studio users will not be able to use it at this time.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Genesis seems to be one big mesh - no groups. Does this mean that each weight map (per joint) must include data for every single vertex in the whole figure. ...

***Probably not. Standard weight mapping for a joint only affects the area it affects. There would be no need to hold the weights for the toes in a finger joint. ***

Right but what I'm failing to understand is how is a vertex or polygon is distinguished as being a part of the toe versus the head or whatever if there are no body part groups? If it is all one group, how is the association of a subset of the geometry with a joint implemented?

In the absence of any grouping, all vertices are eligible for rotation by any joint and a weight must be recorded for all of them.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

In Maya, the rigging's joints are the controllers. The weight map defines which vertices are affected by a joint's rotation and how much they are affected.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Is it worth tripling the memory requirements to hold all that vertex weight data in memory?

It depends on how well it works. I’m not sure that the memory requirements would be any greater than the triple vertex data already defined by falloff spheres.

If a joint has 3 maps, then it certainly will triple the data, versus a joint that has only one map. That's a certainty.

In your response, though you compared triple vertex data with falloff spheres, which is not the point I was asking about. I was comparing weight mapping, one per joint, versus three per joint.

But now that you mention it, I hope you do realize that the amount of data for a falloff sphere is a constant, and has nothing to do with how many vertices are affected, right? A falloff sphere is a huge data reduction in comparison to a weight map, even if the map only has a few hundred vertices in it. Which means that weight maps, even those defined per-polygon-group, are a huge memory chore compared to falloff zones.

Even capsule zones are only 40 bytes of data per zone. Whereas a 3-axis set of weight maps for a single group of vertices is 36 bytes per vertex, assuming only one joint affects the vertex. If 20 joints affect the vertex then that would be 60 maps, not 3 maps.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - In Maya, the rigging's joints are the controllers. The weight map defines which vertices are affected by a joint's rotation and how much they are affected.

You're still not answering the question. Imagine you're a computer, not a human. Computers can't "see". You have a pile of 70,000 vertices. Which ones are affected by the neck, for example, if there are no groups?

You said the weight map defines which vertices are affected. That means it has a true-false for each vertex? In other words, every map has something to say about every vertex?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

To elaborate, the joint at the elbow area of the rigging will call on a weight map that defines the degree of influence the rotation has. The area of the mesh specified is determined not by a part, but by the weight map.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Just to be clear, the area of the mesh that a joint's weight map affects is rational in that it doesn't include weight for every joint in the figure.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - Just to be clear, the area of the mesh that a joint's weight map affects is rational in that it doesn't include weight for every joint in the figure.

Sorry - I'm not trying to be dense, or an ass.

That statement isn't a clarification in response to any assertion I made. You said here that a joint's map doesn't include weight for every joint. Right - I never asked that. I'm asking, true or false:

A joint's map includes weight for every VERTEX.

Put another way:

Each vertex has a weight value for every joint map.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

A joint's map includes weight for every VERTEX.

When you select a joint's map, you can display the area affected by it. These are shades of gray to white. Every other area of the mesh is black. The black areas are not affected by the selected joint's rotations, but now that you've confronted me on this, I suppose they are mapped, to 0. * *

I don't know how efficent this is for programmers.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Genesis does have groups, and regions - you can see the groups as selectable areas when using any of the joint-manipulation tools, regions show only when using the region selection tool and allow for targeting different areas (I'm not sure how much this shows in the Genesis in DS4 .321 but we ddi see it in the projectX preview, or in the videos on the new tools, so that you could for instance select just the upper face and see only those morphs that affect the upper face). I don't know how it is handled, but it's certainly possible that weight maps are defined only across certain groups with other groups simply marked as all 0 or all 1.

Probably a lot of intervening answers, since this is so long, sorry :-)

Quote -

Pretending for a moment that I know nothing, I'm curious about WM in the general non-hobbyist CG world, versus what we will have.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood some points.

Daz trademarked the name "Triax" (TM) in conjunction with DS4. It refers to having 3 independent rotational weights for each joint, one per axis. This implies that the larger CG world has always used only one weight per joint. Is that the case?

This is likely the case, but the reason for that might not be that obvious; The larger CG-world normally does not use Euler angles for posing, but rather quaternions or axis-angle representations. With these you normally cannot easily map your weights to static fixed axes. So the idea of using only a single weight suggests itself.

Quote -
Is using a separate vertex weight per joint*axis a new idea? If the rest of CG apps in the world use only one weight per joint, then doesn't this ensure that the Genesis figure is not compatibly rigged for apps like Maya, etc.? If it isn't a new idea, then what's the point of crowing about playing me too - like me giving a proprietary name to "glass of water".

In other systems, like Maya or blender (i do not know the others), you can usually define multiple weightmaps for each joint if you wish to and bind them to practically any parameter. So you could make a weight map for each joint axis, but why should one do so (unless you want to use euler angles, of course)? The three different weight maps would probably be the most straight-forward way to convert an euler-angle-axis-mapped skin for use in e.g. blender, but usually people do not want to have euler angles in the first place.

Quote -

Is "Triax" (TM) actually useful? Does it make a meaningful improvement over "Monax" (TM I made that up). And if it doesn't really make a difference, is it worth tripling the memory requirements to hold all that vertex weight data in memory? How often do you really want the weight of each axis to be different? If it's rare, I would think that it would be better to use Poser's strategy of multiple influencers per joint. This way, you start with a single weight map, and for the few joints where you need unique values for a second or third axis, you would then stack a single-axis weight.

I guess it could be useful from a technical standpoint, since you just have more parameters you can tweak. I do not see the memory issue, because the guys implementing the skinning algorithm should be smart enough not to store the full set of zero-weights (but here i could be mistaken, of course).

Quote -

Genesis seems to be one big mesh - no groups. Does this mean that each weight map (per joint) must include data for every single vertex in the whole figure? Isn't that horribly wasteful? Is it sensible to have influence data for every joint * every axis * every vertex? Let see - approximately 45 joints in a figure, times 3 axes, gives us 135 numbers that must be kept per vertex. Even if all that is kept in single precision floats, not doubles, that's around 38 megabytes of data! I hope to see some amazingly realistic human shapes for that cost.

The usage of groups for skinning (and morphs), at least partly stem from the desire to import wavefront OBJ files into poser/DAZ, i think. And with OBJ you cannot do much beyond creating groups for various sets of vertices (faces actually). Since DAZ can invent some new proprietary file format for their "triax" system, they do not have to bother with this limitation, so i guess the file size does not need necessarily to grow. Makes things more difficult to import in other applications, unfortunately. But comparing the mysterious binary undocumented DS file formats with the relatively easily understandable text-based poser file formats, i would guess, DAZ does not mind anyway.

Quote -

SM is notorious for not knowing how to use its own tech to best effect, and therefore creating a community perception that the tech is far less than adequate. As far as I can tell, Miki3 does not demonstrate at all what is possible with the new multi-zone sphere+capsule system introduced in P8+PP2010, the system that Daz has refused to embrace. Instead, they claim that Poser tech is holding them back. Meanwhile, I notice also that last year, Maya (an app that is over $3000) just introduced the same or similar multi-zone capsule shape rigging that Poser did, and they talk about it as a way to seriously avoid having to weight map for realistic joints - that it is a step beyond painted weight mapping. What's the truth here? Any rigging experts care to comment?

I am by no means an expert on the matter of subject, but before i even knew that poser and DS existed, i had a bit of experience of weightpainting in blender and a little maya. And before i actually tried poser i got this book "Secrets of Figure Creation in Poser 5" by B.L.Render (that one gave me the idea to actually try poser). The first thing i thought when learned about the falloff zones, was that these are actually an improvement over the older weight painting system, because the falloff zones essentially specify how your surface should bend when bending a joint, whereas with weightpainting, you specify how each vertex should bend. At first this may sound like the same thing, but with the falloff zones, one could use the same zones for different meshes. E.g. you could completely redesign the topology of a limb and still use the same falloff zones. With weightpainting you practically start over and have to redo the weightmap. So i think that Maya does the right thing by implementing those, since it makes it easier for the figure creators; function-wise it is the same, of course, i would even suspect that internally those applications that offer falloff zones use weightmapping internally by converting falloff zones to weights, when loading a figure (i guess even poser does that), since weightmaps are more natural for a machine to process (falloff zones are more on the human side of thinking).
In summary this so called "triax" system sounds a bit like the worst of two worlds: You have still have to use those nasty euler angles with the costly creation of weight maps. (Maya probably does it the other way around, at least i hope so :-)

Thanks Paloth, RHaseltine, and millighost.

I'm not sure anybody really should care if WM costs more RAM - but I'm very curious about it, even though I have 8 GB of it now! LOL

The Maya news I was looking at is here:

The part that caught my attention (emphasis added by me):

Quote - Skinning has received a lot of attention in this release. There are now three options for the actual skinning solver itself; the original linear smooth skinning remains, but there is now also a dual quaternion solver.

Dual Quaternion skinning helps to eliminate collapsing geometry around areas like the inside of elbows and the back of knees, and also what is referred to as the ‘candy wrapper’ twisting effect that the conventional linear method leads to.

There is also a mode which allows the two to be blended, and the influence of each painted (as a weightmap) into the areas that best suit one over the other. Weight painting has also been enhanced.

Firstly an Interactive smooth binding mode circumnavigates the initial stage of weighting by visually representing the influence of each joint as capsules.

These capsules can then be adjusted interactively to change the falloff for each joint which will get you a good way along the road before having to delve into the dirty business of actually painting weights. However, when you do start painting, fear not, as there are several nifty additions in 2011 to make the experience less arduous.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

In other systems, like Maya or blender (i do not know the others), you can usually define multiple weightmaps for each joint if you wish to and bind them to practically any parameter.

I didn't know you could do this: My apologies for putting out incorrect information.

**
**

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Just wanted to post a link to some of the videos that discuss creating weirght maps, etc. http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=164169

Quote - But gee, aren't you speculating there? You don't know all that for a fact now, do ya?

Well, unless DAZ decides to shoot themselves in the foot by breaking Genesis in the final version of Studio 4, then there is no speculation involved, as I have used the figure quite a bit over the past few days, and it is very impressive.

Like I suggested before, give it a try, you just might like it. The only real gripe I have with DAZ|Studio 4 now is the rendering/material setup, which still sucks.

Quote - > Quote - But gee, aren't you speculating there? You don't know all that for a fact now, do ya?

Well, unless DAZ decides to shoot themselves in the foot by breaking Genesis in the final version of Studio 4, then there is no speculation involved, as I have used the figure quite a bit over the past few days, and it is very impressive.

Like I suggested before, give it a try, you just might like it. The only real gripe I have with DAZ|Studio 4 now is the rendering/material setup, which still sucks.

Can't. Studio 3 and 4 won't run on my Mac. I don't have Open GL1.3

Why should i give it a try?

Again unless D/S has changed to play well with Vue infinite and xstream I will not be using it. I also dont want to have to pay for 8-9 different modules just to get to work like poser when I can get all I want from Poser out of the box. These are the only things that do not rush me into using D/S.

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Quote - Why should i give it a try?

So you can have arguments when talking about how much DazStudio does or does not suck?

No offence patorak but your comment sounds quite trollish.

As muh as anyone wants to deny it, DS handles quite a few things better than poser. Check out the parameters tab filters, and the whole camera system. The new Genesis figure (which I DID try) is quite a step forward IMO.

Sorry Hioushi, i pose that question to all salesmen and so far i'm not sold on a program that is a hack of Poser 3/4.

I tried to give it a go, honestly, as at one point I was a Daz user. Unfortunately, DS4 will not run on my computer at all and 3 was terribly glitchy.

Some of what I have seen coming out is impressive, but I admit, Daz's materials handling and rendering engine leave much to be desired. Which is truly sad given that 3Delight is a wonderfully solid engine if they could be bothered to implement it to its full potential.

Am I concerned that Genesis will not work in Poser 8? Not really, I have V4 who needs a convoy to move her wardrobe. There have been concerns raised over how the auto fitting of V4's wardrobe effects the clothing, including that movement morphs etc may well be lost when using them on Genesis.

Also, echoing what Bagginsbill said earlier, I don't think we have seen anywhere near the full potential of Poser's new rigging exploited. Miki3 certainly didn't.

Heck, Antonia uses the old rigging to the best of my knowledge, and her joints are a thousand times better than V4s. If we had a figure done to that sort of standard with the capsule system, who knows, maybe people would be less enthused with Genesis.

Though I do find it interesting that Maya is now integrating a system similar to Poser's capsules... Maybe it is that Daz isn't setting a path to the future, but instead hoping to embrace what other software has known for years while they, along with Poser are the ones moving forward?

Quote - Again unless D/S has changed to play well with Vue infinite and xstream I will not be using it. I also dont want to have to pay for 8-9 different modules just to get to work like poser when I can get all I want from Poser out of the box. These are the only things that do not rush me into using D/S.

I think DAZ Studio is an ending point for modeled objects, rather than a starting point or a place to jump from. At least that is how DAZ3D has marketed the thing. They have not figured out how to market Carrara yet in comparison.

My biggest problem with DS is that there's no way (as far as I know) to model and use my own dynamic clothing with their cloth plugin. Most of the clothing I use and make is dynamic, so if they don't fix this, DS will remain an absolute no-no as far as I am concerned, Genesis or not.

I think I'm going to just have a headache and be done with it.

Quote - I think I'm going to just have a headache and be done with it.

Steve take two "Joint Capsules" for your headache. Works everytime.

To the rest of the posters that have taken the time to provide technical detials, thanks a ton. I appreciate the research and sharing of your findings here.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

To the rest of the posters that have taken the time to provide technical detials, thanks a ton. I appreciate the research and sharing of your findings here.

As they say in my neighborhood, "Forget about it."

Quote - Right but what I'm failing to understand is how is a vertex or polygon is distinguished as being a part of the toe versus the head or whatever if there are no body part groups? If it is all one group, how is the association of a subset of the geometry with a joint implemented? In the absence of any grouping, all vertices are eligible for rotation by any joint and a weight must be recorded for all of them.

Interesting question. I'm a trepxe, the opposite of an expert, however with what little I know I could guess:

1. Done by mat zones. If something is in the foot zone, it follows whatever rules for a foot.

Some kind of weight map like you are talking about (this poly has the foot color or location, so it must be a foot).
You have a rig and it tries to guess how things work based on the rig and matches the rig to the mesh. IE if you tell it a model is a human, it'll try to make guesses about what is what. This scares me to no end because I know how smart features end up as nightmares.
I didn't play spore, but I did see how CC in it worked. You plunked a llimb onto your beastie and the game tried to use it. So maybe you select an area and label it as a limb or a hand or whatever.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - Sorry Hioushi, i pose that question to all salesmen ...

LOL. I think DAZ must owe me some back pay then, since I'm not sure exactly when I became a "salesman" for them, and I'm quite sure I've never been paid by them. I was trying to offer some common sense and reason to counteract the negativity, but I see that some are determined to blindly hate in the face of all dissenting opinion. Carry on as you were.

Quote - ... and so far i'm not sold on a program that is a hack of Poser 3/4.

So you have tried it, then? If so, why were you asking why you should try it?

Also, this thread is mainly focused on the Genesis figure itself, and not quite so much on DAZ|Studio as a whole. I still very much wish I could just use Genesis in Poser Pro 2010, since the DS ui is not quite there yet. As stated before, materials and rendering in DS pale next to Poser 8/2010. The Genesis figure itself is a masterpiece, however.

I see what I see.
The only religion (in Poser) I believe in, are my 2 own eyeballs.

The movie showed a well rigged figure.
But?
And that has been "the" biggest problem lately; close to no body muscle topology.

Before all this we had low poly figures, low on mem usage.
Then came the high poly models, very-very hard to rig, very mem hungry, but still close to no muscle topology.

Now poly count comes down again, oef, and other systems used to get the rigging.

All wel and very nice.

But when will they build a human figure??? That looks human?

Most of my Poser time , I seem to lower balloons to make some real breasts.
And change body shapes to include basic topology and muscles.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

That's a very interesting question. How memory hungry is the new Gensis figure anyway. My guess is that DAZ will sell the figure it self as a base and morph packs for each successive model. such as V5, M5, A5 and so on. How much strain will this put on a computer's resources?

This reply/statement comes from SKondris and Richard Hasiltine from the Daz team. Hopefully it answers some questions regarding compatability with Poser.

"Genesis is the name for the whole new 5th generation of figures coming out in DAZ Studio 4. It's the name for the entire series of figures that will be created - by both DAZ 3D and 3rd party figure creators. V5 and M5 will be released as part of this series of figures. Currently, DAZ Studio 4 is shipping with a basic male, female, and child shape. We're working on up-converted clones of our popular 4th generation shapes (ie, Victoria 4, Michael 4, etc). Third party figure developers can also release their own shapes as part of this series, and we're actively encouraging them to do so. For example, we would love it if Aery Soul would release a version of their popular Alice character as a new figure shape in the Genesis series so that you all could use her shape together with all the rest that we'll be released. As for compatibility, the Genesis figures are only possible through new technological innovations we've made in DAZ Studio 4. However, the Genesis platform utilizes an open file format that we are hoping others will support. We're working on support for the Genesis series right now in Carrara. And the Bryce <-> DAZ Studio Bridge will work with these figures, too. We've had some discussions with Smith Micro, but ultimately, they'll need to make their own decisions as to what makes the most sense for their company, but we hope that they'll be able to support the Genesis platform without too much work."

"We'd be very happy if Smith Micro wanted to get their figures into the Genesis series. Smile No reason they couldn't."

From Richard Hasiltine

"Current Poser-style rigging uses shapes to define how much or little the mesh is deformed by a bend, rather like the falloff sphere for a magnet though there are more shapes and no way to edit the graph as you have with magnets. A joint can also deform only its own mesh and that of its parent. With weight-mapping each vertex of the mesh is given a weight (how strongly it deforms, nothing to do with weight as measured by a set of scales) directly, and any joint can bend any part of the mesh. That allows better control, especially in tricky areas like the shoulders and hips, and also opens up more options for things like skirts and webbed fingers. So far it's DS4 only, though there's an expectation that Poser 9 will do it too - whether Poser 9 and DS4 will be able to share the same figures remains to be seen."

Thank you for the post V01f, finally an official statement. What's it's date though? I was hoping both parts had worked things out by now, or at least express a more strong position on the subject, but it seems otherwise.

V01f:

While weight mapping is being added as a feature for D/S 4, and maybe Poser 9 (they do not seem to be commenting, but they almost never do), one would assume that D/S 4 (and Poser 9) would be able to handle the legacy rigging of content already available?

Hee,hee,hee...those poor programmers. Their heads must be spinning.

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

I dunno dude. I'm reserving my judgement for now. Right now the genesis figure is more of a want than a need.

V01f:

Well, thanks for the quotes. It is watch and wait for me too. No use forming opinions before the applications and contents have been tortured to the max by the first few users. Sadly, it looks as if the version four line will not be completed with a David4 morph.

If all the legacy content is supported with weight mapping too, I wonder what hybrids will be possible?

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

LOL. I think DAZ must owe me some back pay then, since I'm not sure exactly when I became a "salesman" for them, and I'm quite sure I've never been paid by them. I was trying to offer some common sense and reason to counteract the negativity, but I see that some are determined to blindly hate in the face of all dissenting opinion. Carry on as you were.

It ain't blind hate, just plain disgust.
* *

So you have tried it, then? If so, why were you asking why you should try it?

Why do you want to know, you writin' a book?

Also, this thread is mainly focused on the Genesis figure itself, and not quite so much on DAZ|Studio as a whole. I still very much wish I could just use Genesis in Poser Pro 2010, since the DS ui is not quite there yet. As stated before, materials and rendering in DS pale next to Poser 8/2010. The Genesis figure itself is a masterpiece, however.

Ante up...let's see some pics.

Would be nice if someone at Smith Micro told us something one way or another about Poser 9 and DAZ compatibility. I really miss the old CP bulletin boards. They didn't say much, but at least they said something.

DAZ Rand dropped quite a bomb today stating that they were moving towards having all of their 3D software tied to the new CMS System Database. This would include D/S, Bryce, Carrara and Hexagon. I don't know about the rest of you but I don't want to see Bryce & Carrara bogged down by this move.

And I really don't wanna see Hex bogged down by it either. But since it's a modeler, I'm not quite seeing how they can ruin it. However, considering the source, I'm sure they'll do their darndest to try ;).

Laurie

I fail to understand why all the hate towards Daz, or why blaming them of every possible mischief the Poser comunity suffers. I've been a Poser user since Poser 4, and I still get excited over news either at Daz or SM(CuriousLabs, eFronteer, etc, etc).

It's like going to the Vue forums and reading a bunch of coments about how much Brice sucks and ruins every Vue user experience.

How exactly does reporting what they've publically stated in their forums equal out to hate exactly? They plan on tying all of their 3D software packages into a common suite according to DAZ Rand. One that uses their Content Management System software that will run constantly in the background on your system using system memory and CPU resources regardless of whether or not you're actually using any of their 3D software packages.

The last Crapware Suite I used that went the route of Windows Services to tie their suites together was Roxio and I now refuse to ever buy from them again!

I wasn't refering to that Steve. See, I don't use Daz Studio, I've never rendered anything at all in it, all of my image uploads here in the gallery and deviantart are Poser renders, I love Poser, and I'm very used to it, THAT is why I don't use Daz, it's not because I think it's evil, or because Daz is money hungry, or whatever else. Just because it does not suit my particular needs, doesn't mean I must act blind and deny the features that are certainly an improvement over Poser. I just don't agree with the stance of "DazStudio sucks because it's not Poser".

I don't think that it's as simple as "DazStudio sucks because it's not Poser" and I think saying it is is turning a blind eye to all the reasons people have actually given for not liking DS. I personally don't dislike it. In fact, I use it to get Poser content easily into Bryce. That's all I use it for but like any tool it has it's use. I don't use it to pose or render because I am more comfortable using Poser for that.

What I do dislike is when a company asks for it's users opinions time and time again and then goes on to ignore said opinions repeatedly. Nobody I have heard of wants the CMS program to run as a Windows service when DS isn't running except for DAZ. Now having them say they're going to eventually be tying all of their 3D apps to this service turns me off even further.

It's not hate. It's "Fed Up".

I'd comment on the purpose of this thread but DAZ dumped their video too fast.

I was gonna comment that I wondered how the folks who got Daz Studio free and the base figures free may now have to buy DS4 to get the genesis figures and how that was a total 360 for DAZ in the past few years...

Quote - I fail to understand why all the hate towards Daz,

You've never used hex, have you? It's taken them how many years to get around to fixing some of the crashing problems (dunno, haven't tested the beta)?

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - > Quote - I fail to understand why all the hate towards Daz,

You've never used hex, have you? It's taken them how many years to get around to fixing some of the crashing problems (dunno, haven't tested the beta)?

I have been testing the beta and for me it's been really solid. I've only crashed a few times and most of those were my fault (like forgetting to collapse dynamic geometry before export). ;)

Laurie

Quote - Stumbled across this clip on youtube. Don't know if it has been posted anywhere on this site. I must say I am impressed. Looks like the future is bright, if it comes to poser.

linky says video is private. cant' watch it.

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Quote - I have been testing the beta and for me it's been really solid. I've only crashed a few times and most of those were my fault (like forgetting to collapse dynamic geometry before export). ;)

Laurie

That's a start, but I still hate the included UVmapping.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - > Quote - I have been testing the beta and for me it's been really solid. I've only crashed a few times and most of those were my fault (like forgetting to collapse dynamic geometry before export). ;)

Laurie

That's a start, but I still hate the included UVmapping.

I still use Roadkill for that

I just tried out uvmapper free the other day, it did the job, sort of.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

wings3d has a uv mapper built in

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Thanks for the tech geek talk BagginsBill and others- I enjoy reading about it!

I am tempted to get into the hate/no hate Daz conversation-but since I don't take it seriously- I will abstain! I mostly wanted to see the video- and found it to be Private. That might be enough reason to "hate" Daz! JUST KIDDING! :-)

When I asked if Miki might become a morph of the Genesis figure, DAS said it was possible; it depended on their talks with SM. It makes scent, why would SM make changes Poser to use the Genesis tech if DAZ wouldn't include SM figures in the Genesis figure?

Well, DS4 is out. Has anyone got it and tried to play with the new figure?

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Ok, I DLed DS4 (which from my first impression I didn't like using the least) and starting playing with gene, which I what I think we should all call it for short.

Mesh wise it all does seem to be one piece or at least everything got melded together when I exported it to hex. Unfortuately I can't reexport it on this user account on my PC because DS4 can't find seem to find gene right now.

Things I've noticed:

Comes in at 75k polys
Ears may have fewer polys
lash mesh has changed
Newer eye set up, but I can't test if it'll do freaky things in poser
overall mesh density reminds me of V4
for the moment there's no mat zone for eyebrows
too many mat zones overall again
has a male morph, one kid morph, one female morph, and several body shape morphs, but they look like they are for gene's male morph, and a few basic body shaping morphs
My final impression of gene is that it is a quasi gender-neutral (more male than female) generation 4 model.

For the last thing, part of me wonders if this will take off at all. It costs 50-100 bocks to get the wardrobe upgrade so your old stuff will work on gene (though all movement and styling morphs die in the upgrade). It isn't usable in Poser. And overall it seems like v4/m4 with a newer feature and no specific items to support it.

For the moment, I recommend staying with whatever you have, but I'm a bit biased.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I have read and made my conclusion.

75K poly's? what a pollution.
So many mat zones? what a pollution.

They will never learn.
They will never listen.

They can play solo for my part.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

The mesh is not 75K polygons - it is about 17K, but with subdivision applied and (unless you change the export options) it's the subdivided mesh that exports.

Quote - For the last thing, part of me wonders if this will take off at all. It costs 50-100 bocks to get the wardrobe upgrade so your old stuff will work on gene (though all movement and styling morphs die in the upgrade). It isn't usable in Poser. And overall it seems like v4/m4 with a newer feature and no specific items to support it.

For the moment, I recommend staying with whatever you have, but I'm a bit biased.

I tried to ask DAZ Randall whether or not the Auto fit would be ported to work in Poser. I never received an answer. Still, that's a consideration for me, even if Genesis does work in Poser.

I wouldn't count on it EClark1894, it's like asking SM to port the hair room to Daz, it's an entirely different code base, so an implementation from scratch is needed.

"I wouldn't count on it EClark1894, it's like asking SM to port the hair room to Daz, it's an entirely different code base, so an implementation from scratch is needed."

Correct!!!

Cheers

I'd comment on the purpose of this thread but DAZ dumped their video too fast.

Hmmm...i guess they ain't gonna ante up?

"I'd comment on the purpose of this thread but DAZ dumped their video too fast.

Hmmm...i guess they ain't gonna ante up?"

Hi
that Video was a posing comparison between v4 and the new"genesis" uberfigure
showing how this things bends where V4 Breaks

Frankly the video is now moot

DS4 is out
anyone can try the new figure against there copy of V4

and Draw their own conclusions.

Edit:BTW

this quote is fromthe DS4 press release

over in the news section of CG society

"DAZ Studio 4 uses a new file format that is lightweight, easy to transfer and exists in an open format for easy editing within other 3D software. No longer satisfied with the inherent constraints of building upon a third-party platform, DAZ 3D has established a new, open platform. DAZ 3D has also announced that they will support any other vendors that offer this file format within their tools.

"

That Says it all IMHO

Cheers

Gotta link to the video. i ain't installing ds4.

Quote - Gotta link to the video. i ain't installing ds4.

Understandable so there truly is no need for you to see the video
again....Moot.

Cheers

LOL! Yer right. Thing that bugs me the most about it is i feel daz is makin' a power play and slamming the door on a lot of people. i guess power does that. A company starts out noble and enlightened. A few years pass old employees leave, new employees join. Cept the new employees don't see enlightenment as wisdom, they see it as power. And to multiply their power they form good ol boy networks. Eventually the power corrupts them and in return they corrupt the noble and enlightened company.

Is that How AutoDesk,Apple, or MIcrosoft Began??.... "noble"..."Enlightened"
until Power & Greed turned them into the Heartless& Monolithic Behemoths
they are today??

"Noble"&"Enlightened" people start Social & Civil movements for the good of Mankind
they dont Sell the SAME Virtual "3D Nekkid Chick "models" to a Very tiny&
Dedicated Community of Mostly Digital Hoarders on Fixed incomes

Seriously...
All Melodrama Aside Exactly what Door is being "Slammed on Alot of people"
In the world of technology Formats Change All the Time
I am AMAZED how Much Anxiety I see Exhibited by Some over this Reality
This latest Virtual "3D Nekkid Chick "model is Just another option for Some users
not a Civil Right.

Cheers