bagginsbill opened this issue on Jun 29, 2011 · 184 posts
bagginsbill posted Wed, 29 June 2011 at 10:52 PM
I Googled like mad for the reflection coefficients of gold at various angles. I could not find it.
So I've spent all week photographing gold in very careful ways and measuring the colors. (Also copper, brass, and a few others.)
Then I built a shader. Here it is demonstrated.
Gold is 255, 215, 147 when viewed straight on. It changes in surprising ways as the viewing angle becomes more shallow.
Click the pic for bigger.
PS: I know my shadow doesn't match the environment - I was just trying to anchor the piece on the ground so it would not be floaty/distracting.
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grichter posted Wed, 29 June 2011 at 11:32 PM
cool beans, thanks for the data. Especailly the angle info. Tried to make my own gold bars about 2 years ago and never could make them look right. Have to go looking for that scene and see if I can bring it back to life.
wonder how much that thing weights times 1510.00USD an ounce. (today's closing gold spot price)
Gary
"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"
BionicRooster posted Wed, 29 June 2011 at 11:52 PM Forum Moderator
So, BB, you gonna share your shade on this one? Enquiring minds wanna know! hehe
But seriously, I use (or try to use at least) gold a lot, and when we were talking in the caht room, it got me a thinking, and you too apparently... lol
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Winterclaw posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 12:02 AM
So if you took the red and green of traditional gold on an rgb color scale (255,215) and added in the blue of pale gold (138) you'd have something very close to the real thing.
Quote - It changes in surprising ways as the viewing angle becomes more shallow.
How so? And do any other metals change in the same way?
Also a dumb question I feel like asking so please forgive me: you used 24 karat gold, right?
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
NanetteTredoux posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 1:08 AM
Ah Bagginsbill you truly are a digital alchemist!
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Acadia posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 1:19 AM
Wow! That truly is amazing! And it sure does look like real gold. I've got so many metal materials and the gold ones look yellow and really nothing like gold.
Excellent job BB!!!
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
dphoadley posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 1:35 AM
RobynsVeil posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 3:42 AM
BB, you need to consider selling this shader (along with some others)! Along with an instruction booklet (i.e., pdf - easy to make, and just the thing!)... just throwing ideas out there.
This shader is worth its weight in... er... :blink:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
vilters posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 5:16 AM
@RobynsVeil
Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssst, silence is Golden....
Don't give the man "bad" idea's.....
But he deserves all our respect.
:-) Oeps, what would the RGB values for Silence be ? ? ? :-)
Give our shader master a week, he might come up with some :-)
He must eat, drink, and sleep in that mat room...
We also must change the name of that room.
From Material room to Math class.
But then, I was never good at Math :-(
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"Do not drive
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RobynsVeil posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 5:36 AM
Whilst I'm a reasonably good speller, I was told when I was young that I would never be good at maths, because I couldn't do equations in my head.
I wish parents wouldn't do things like that!
Even if matmatic sounds like it involves a lot of complex mathmatics (and it can, it has the capability, but it is not a requirement), I've found it more of an automation tool than anything else. I can write stuff that makes things. This is cool. Writing:
def makeSurface():
myColour = IColor(255,0,0)
s = Surface(myColour,.8,0,0)
return s
makeSurface()
makes an incredibly simple shader... but yes, it makes something. I can make all sorts of stuff this way - much more complex things - without really doing hardly any math. Well, no math, really. Yes, I'm shocking at maths. :blink:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
bagginsbill posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 7:52 AM
Copper (the pipes) is 255, 189, 162.
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vilters posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 8:06 AM
There is yellow and red copper.
My central heating copper 1/2" and 1" pipes are rather dull, and yes they do age......and are not that shiney. 8-(
The stainless steel is awsome.... Whaw. That is pretty close to photo quatily.....
Red copper pic included.
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Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
MistyLaraCarrara posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 8:48 AM
ooo, thank you. shiny gold to go with the diamonds.
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3Dave posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 11:04 AM
Thankyou for the data
SamTherapy posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 11:28 AM
This is great info, BB. Many thanks.
I have to confess I was never happy with the gold you made before so I came up with one of my own. I'll have to see how your colour compares with my version.
The copper and stainless look superb, too. My dad was a plumber so I've seen more than my share of copper pipe. :)
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Winterclaw posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 11:41 AM
The copper seems a little too brown to me for some reason. At least if we were talking about untarnished copper. The steel looks right though.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
kawecki posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 11:46 AM
Quote - "It changes in surprising ways as the viewing angle becomes more shallow."
Fresnel in action. In metals the amount of reflected light is a function of the incidence angle and the wavelength. To achieve this effect you need to have a Fresnel function for each RGB channel with different parameters.
Dielectric materials don't change the color of the reflected specular light, so a single Fresnel function for the three RGB channels is enough.
Stupidity also evolves!
Acadia posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 11:59 AM
Quote - I was told when I was young that I would never be good at maths, because I couldn't do equations in my head.
I'll have to try your forumla for matmatic. Is that all I have to put into the notepad file?
I'm not good at higher math, but I can do the basics pretty easily.
When I started school it was kind of at the tail end of the imperial system and moving into metric. We were still being taught fractions and such, but I just couldn't wrap my head around it. I figured out how to convert a fraction into a decimal all on my own, but I couldn't figure out how to get it back to ratio form. At first they were marking my answers wrong because they weren't in fraction, but eventually because I was getting the right answer, just in a different format, they started to mark me based on the metric answers I gave.
So after having dealt with metric for most of my life, imagine my surprise when I applied to nursing school in the mid 1990's when I was in my 30's and told that we had to do an entrance exam that contained math questions.....all dealing with the imperial system and especially fractions and ratios!
I was in an utter panic! I borrowed a kids book from the library called "Math 123 the Easy Way" or something like that, and studied it and sat down with my Sister-in-Law for a couple of days while she taught me how to do fractions and ratios.
I aced the entrance exam and all of the math tests in nursing school!
Part of my problem with math though is the fact that I'm dyslexic and I don't always process what I'm seeing, correctly, especially when under stress/pressure, such as tests.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
shuy posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 12:57 PM
Quote - Sorry if mistaking, but your copper looks like bronze?
There is yellow and red copper.
My central heating copper 1/2" and 1" pipes are rather dull, and yes they do age......and are not that shiney. 8-(
The stainless steel is awsome.... Whaw. That is pretty close to photo quatily.....
Red copper pic included.
Quote - The copper seems a little too brown to me for some reason. At least if we were talking about untarnished copper. The steel looks right though.
Pipes which you know are not copper - it is always alloy and colour depends of ingridiens and production process.
SamTherapy posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 1:08 PM
Copper forms a major part of the alloy, however.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
FrankT posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 1:22 PM
Interestingly, in MentalRay (the 3DS render engine) the IOR for gold is about 25.
I don't know if Firefly will use IOR values the same though but who the hell decided that metal is refractive ??? :biggrin:
Afrodite-Ohki posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 2:07 PM
This looks perfect, BB! Any chance we can get our hands on those full shaders? If you released stuff as merchant resources I'd be more than willing to buy.
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
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kawecki posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 3:22 PM
Quote - but who the hell decided that metal is refractive
It is not, but it is a way to solve problems. A perfect metal will have an infinite index of refraction and in metals or conductors the refraction index is a complex number (real + imaginary part). Ok, something imaginary is something that doesn't exist, it is only an abstraction, but this abstraction has the physical meaning of how much is reflected and to where and the imaginary part produce a phase shift of the incoming wave (polarization efects and blah, blah, blah)
Stupidity also evolves!
Casette posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 4:37 PM
Matmatic files?
CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
Acadia posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 5:40 PM
Quote - Matmatic files?
Scripts that can be used with BB's matmatic program to generate the coded in texture/shader.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
RobynsVeil posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 5:49 PM
Acadia, when I'm asked to do like how many mls/hr for a given volume of IV fluid, I so seriously still have to break out pen and paper and do the maths manually, with a lot of head-scratching and self-doubt "nah, this can't be right!"...
... which is what is so cool about matmatic. It sounds like it would be all about maths, but it's much more about making things: shaders, to be specific. And as far as the maths goes (in matmatic), it'll do the lot for you. You just plug in a formula. BB's happy to share those: he's got heaps for all sorts of cool materials.
So, it's more about learning a language - Python - and what that language works like. At this point, I'd say I'm conversational, if not exactly fluent. :blink:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Latexluv posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 10:12 PM
Was away over night. Very interested in this discussion! Great examples BB!
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
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Anthanasius posted Thu, 30 June 2011 at 10:57 PM
Work fine with this http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2812046 , thx !
Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site
bagginsbill posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 6:01 AM
Anthanasius rightly points out these colors work with my BBGlossy shader for a decent metal and you could certainly use that and 99% of folk would never notice it wasn't perfect.
However, the BBGlossy assumes a constant color from all angles, whereas that's not true of real life. Kawecki rightly brings up the notion of a complex IOR and that is certainly a factor. However, I built a shader with a 3-channel IOR and it doesn't look right. Maybe I did it wrong.
After building the 3-channel IOR and seeing it produce pink at the edges of gold, I decided that maybe in this case the physics department has an over-simplified answer and I'd be better off actually measuring the colors and then apply theory, instead of the other way around.
It was after I did that, I found the realism of the gold increased. So did my stainless steel. I did not have a good sample of copper, and may have to revisit that one. For gold, steel, and brass, I have flat shiny pieces. For copper all I have are curved and/or dull pieces, so accurate measurements are very difficult.
My plan is to sell this shader, not give it away. My wife is really mad at me for never selling anything, always giving it away.
Note that this thread is not about my shader - it's not a commercial. I honestly wanted to share the news of what the ding-dang color of gold actually is! I could not find it anywhere.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
RobynsVeil posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 6:16 AM
Your wife is right. Good on you for listening to her. 
You realise, of course, this is going to alleviate community guilt tremendously... we've been taking and taking for years! Finally, we'll have an opportunity to give back.
Thank you, "BB's wife" ...
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
kawecki posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 6:25 AM
Quote - After building the 3-channel IOR and seeing it produce pink at the edges of gold,...
He,he,he. Here is the problem. Pink is red + blue, two colors of the extreme of the spectrum and are subjective colors. In physics we measure and tabulate the parameters by wavelength, but we don't render by wavelength. We render using only three primaries and a red primary, for example, it is not only a red light, it has the peak in the red spectrum, but has also orange, yellow, green and even blue colors, even with smaller intensities. If we change the R intensity we are changing also the blue intensity. We are not able to change the red color without changing the other colors that makes part of the primary. The same thing happens with Green and Blue primaries.
I don't know how to solve this problem to create images. Maybe use two gold colors, one for normal incidence and one for great incidence angle and then use the Fresnel as the blending factor for these two colors.
ADDENDUM: Use for refraction index glass and not metal for the blending Fresnel. In metals the Fresnel factor changes very little, so the blend would be useless.
Stupidity also evolves!
bagginsbill posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 7:05 AM
Yes Kawecki! You describe exactly what I did. I measured the color at low and high incidence angle and use the single Fresnel to blend between them.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
estherau posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 7:09 AM
when I saw the title of this thread I thought it meant that finally BB has been paid what he is worth for his work.
Love esther
I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!
vilters posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 8:40 AM
YES , he deserves the Math room in Gold..... :-)
But how to weight the Math Room??
In PNU?
Poser Native Units?
Gonna be a hell of a job......... :-)
I'm gonna write to SM.
Change the name of that "Math room" into the ""BB room"".... and make it shiney. with a golden glossy background...
Oh, boy my fantasy is drifting today.......
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P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
millighost posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 11:07 AM
Quote - ... Gold is 255, 215, 147 when viewed straight on. It changes in surprising ways as the viewing angle becomes more shallow.
...
As far as i understand it, the 255,215,147 are the rgb values of something golden, when viewed straight on, normalized to R=255; but comparing with the e.g. wikipedia entry (Reflectivity), i noticed the blue component being higher (147/255 = .58) than the nominal value (< 0.4), so i guess this is either for impure gold (e.g. with silver) or for some different (unknown) wavelengths. The green (215/255=0.84) is very close to an srgb-green of 550nm). Not that i know what the real value is or if anybody would ever build a chest of pure gold :-) How did you measure it?
Raindroptheelf posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 11:16 AM
oh this looks like reay Gold, very very well done.
Your wife is right, you should sell what you work so hard for occasionally.
I for one can not wait to buy those shaders.
Wonderful.
vilters posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 11:20 AM
ha-ha-ha-
All woman support the selling part.... a funny ting to see this happen.... :-)
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
Afrodite-Ohki posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 11:38 AM
Quote - ha-ha-ha-
All woman support the selling part.... a funny ting to see this happen.... :-)
We are thankful to him and want to see him earning something off his (lifesaving) work. Save the macho crap for a teen community, will ya?
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
vilters posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 12:29 PM
how-how-how- Hold your horces, it was meant to be a rather funny observation that put a smile om my face. :-)
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"Do not drive
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kawecki posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 4:12 PM
Quote - Yes Kawecki! You describe exactly what I did. I measured the color at low and high incidence angle and use the single Fresnel to blend between them.
Good, if it worked this is the way to solve the problem.
All is a big confusion, I am working on different models for metals, there are so many models, Beckmann-Kirchoff, modified Beckmann-Kirchof, Cook-Torrance, Sparrow-Torrance, He-Torrance, Ward and many others, and you can add several different shadowing functions, but ..... which is the best ??????
Stupidity also evolves!
Medzinatar posted Fri, 01 July 2011 at 4:37 PM
Assumption is specular color is 586 nm, with ±35 nm either way.
I make conversion from wavelength to RGB but maybe method not so accurate
Kalypso posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 9:23 AM Online Now! Site Admin
Quote - how-how-how- Hold your horces, it was meant to be a rather funny observation that put a smile om my face. :-)
Which should also make you think how much better off we'd all be if there were more women economists, bankers and stockbrokers ;)
SamTherapy posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 2:18 PM
IMO we'd all be better off if there were no economists, bankers or stockbrokers of any gender but that's dangerously close to the No Politics rule so I'll shut me gob.
BB, about time you got paid for all your shader work. Hope you make a fortune.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
patorak3d posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 3:36 PM
Have a little faith SamTherapy. Things will get better and years from now you'll be sitting in your 600.000 pound home telling your grandchildren about the great depression of '08.
BB don't forget to spread the wealth. Like Adam Smith says horded wealth is non-productive labour.
bopperthijs posted Sat, 02 July 2011 at 6:02 PM
No politicians would be even better, avoids us from breaking the no politics rule.
But I see a golden future laying ahead of us, at least for poser.
Bopper.
-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?
scanmead posted Sun, 03 July 2011 at 6:35 PM
Metals are not easy. With gold, there is the 24 carat variety of modern jewelry, and the various hues of ancient golds found in Egypt, Peru, and Asia, some much darker than others. Gold thread is much browner. Copper and Bronze can look very similar, depending on the forging, polishing, and age. The hardest metal for me is pewter.
Now throw refraction, reflection, and anistrophy into the mix, and you know why a believable metal shader is worth its digital weight in gold. ;)
Keith posted Mon, 04 July 2011 at 10:21 AM
The image on the left is a brick poured at a mine roughly 45 minutes before this photo was taken (back in 2002). It's about 960 troy ounces (30 kilos, about 66 lbs), about 88% gold (the rest silver, copper and few other impurities). The image on the right is from a different mine (taken last year) where the gold, of slightly less purity, was poured into a mold (for the inukshuk) and polished up a bit to make it more shiny. The gold bar laying on its side underneath it was what would have been normally poured, but that was also shined up a bit to make it look prettier.
And yes, that inukshuk is 49.8 kg (110 lb) of raw gold.
ghonma posted Mon, 04 July 2011 at 2:23 PM
Quote - but we don't render by wavelength. We render using only three primaries and a red primary, for example, it is not only a red light, it has the peak in the red spectrum, but has also orange, yellow, green and even blue colors, even with smaller intensities. If we change the R intensity we are changing also the blue intensity. We are not able to change the red color without changing the other colors that makes part of the primary. The same thing happens with Green and Blue primaries.
Which is why renderers like Maxwell render in spectra instead of RGB (part of the reason for their ridiculous levels of photorealism)
Miss Nancy posted Mon, 04 July 2011 at 3:30 PM
jeez, lookit all that gold! keith is definitely the go-to guy if one needs a few bars.
scanmead posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 1:59 AM
I volunteer to clean Keith's shoes after work every day! ;)
MistyLaraCarrara posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 11:26 AM
but more importantly, what is the color of chocolate?
milk chocolate bunnehs, cadbury butterscotch, swoon dovebar
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stewer posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 12:50 PM
Quote - Which is why renderers like Maxwell render in spectra instead of RGB (part of the reason for their ridiculous levels of photorealism)
I understand all the theoretical advantages behind spectral rendering, but so far I haven't found any side-by-side comparison of spectral vs RGB rendering that would show a visible difference. Would love to see one if anyone can find one :)
The closest I've seen is http://www.anyhere.com/gward/papers/egwr02/img/ColorPlate.jpg where the difference is measurable, but barely visible in the direct comparison and would go unnoticed without a reference.
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:05 PM
Keith showed us a few pictures, with the intent to show us how gold comes in various colors. That's nice, but I can make a defensible argument that those three samples of gold were identical, and that the color variation came from environment differences or camera differences alone.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:06 PM
I believe it is 24K gold, but I'm not sure. I don't really care. Watch.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:07 PM
The disgusting color is from compact fluorescent light bulbs.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:09 PM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:10 PM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:11 PM
THIS IS THE EXACT SAME OBJECT IN ALL ELEVEN ROOMS.
Clearly, the photographic evidence of gold variation is not useful AT ALL unless you include the un-reflected object as a reference in the same photo.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
3Dave posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:11 PM
(o) (o)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:13 PM
But even this was too casual and has a flaw. The utensil is reflecting light onto the paper, changing its color. Measuring these two this way, I'd be pulling in measurements from a feedback loop. This would give incorrect results.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:15 PM
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:16 PM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:17 PM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:18 PM
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:24 PM
One more thing about the "color" of gold. I gave you an sRGB color. I'm assuming (and make sure to use) the linear version of that in my shader. That means that to get the actual ratio of components, you must not use the direct value of x/255. You must convert from sRGB to linear.
For example, if the red is 255 and the green is 230, the ratio is NOT 230/255 = .902. You have to take it to the power 2.2 to remove the gamma correction. So the true ratio is (230/255)^2.2 = .797.
Poser Pro does this automatically.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
3Dave posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 2:24 PM
If memory serves, you've just demonstrated Chevreul's colour theory which itself was a founding theory of Impressionist Painting and taken to extreme by The Fauves in the very early 20thC. Another artistic revolution driven by science, please continue the lesson
Keith posted Tue, 05 July 2011 at 8:28 PM
Quote - Keith showed us a few pictures, with the intent to show us how gold comes in various colors. That's nice, but I can make a defensible argument that those three samples of gold were identical, and that the color variation came from environment differences or camera differences alone.
Absolutely, for part of it. The first was taken in a small room where I didn't need a flash because the flourescent lighting was sufficient. The second was taken in a big empty space where I had to use a flash (with a different camera) because otherwise it would have been too dim.
However, and in this case you'll have to take my word for it, the first brick really was significantly duller and of a different shade than the latter. It surprised a lot of the people there at the time (who'd never seen raw gold before) that it really wasn't very shiny at all.
Now for pure, polished gold (which you have with the spoon) you've got a pretty optimum situation for seeing it in different situations. If you're comparing different gold objects, say a beaten gold Bronze Age ornament, it's going to have potentially a radically different colour, even in the same environment, than a piece of gold ornamentation coming from a different source or processed in a different way. It's one of the things I run into as a geologist regularly: you can't rely on colour/reflectivity alone as a diagnostic feature except when dealing with samples from the same environment examined in the same environment.
kawecki posted Wed, 06 July 2011 at 12:11 AM
What makes gold look gold is not the color itself, the illumination effects makes gold look as gold.
I did some quick experiments, as I have no gold trimmed shader and no raytracing I did it with what I have.
In this image I used standart Phong for specular channel, a modified not Lambertian for diffuse channel and a modified environment mapping and three directional white lights.
Stupidity also evolves!
kawecki posted Wed, 06 July 2011 at 12:13 AM
Stupidity also evolves!
kawecki posted Wed, 06 July 2011 at 12:25 AM
As you can see it doesn't look as gold and as I said before I haven't the appropiate shader for gold. What made look as gold were the reflections even if fake.
The second interesant thing was that in the second image where the gold look much better I used instead of Phong (left) the Lommel-Seeliger shader (right), nothing to do with gold and metals, this shader is made for rendering the Moon!!!
The Lommel-Seeliger shader produce a strong illumination at glazing angles, so if it made gold look better it means that gold has strong reflections at glazing incidence angles.
Stupidity also evolves!
MistyLaraCarrara posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 9:45 AM
ohhh, is environment mapping the secret trick?
my results last night were so awful, doan want to post it.
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kawecki posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 10:56 AM
Environment mapping is a way to make fake reflections. You can make natural reflections with raytracing. The problem is that must exist something to be reflected. A dull room with nothing will not work. You need objects in the room, extended area light sources or windows acting as a light source.
Stupidity also evolves!
Miss Nancy posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 1:56 PM
the above is what I got with lo-qual. FFRender/IDL settings and first approx. of schlick approx. of fresnel gold procedural. the difficulty here is that if anybody posts screenshot of optimal schlick approx. of fresnel gold procedural, then this would present probs in case bill is planning to sell his metals shader pak.
p.s. the inclusion of the ibis-winged demigoddesses on top of the sarcophagus indicates the origin of the hebrew religion was Amun-Ra.
bagginsbill posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 2:15 PM
Oh anybody who can figure out what to do is free to post it. Believe me, you're not going to match what I have. I have the same shader doing several golds, several coppers, several brass, bronze, silver, platinum, steel - in all of these I have various finishes (smooth to blurry/rough). I have grain and mottling where needed. I have the specular node perfectly tuned to match the blur and IOR so that reflections of Poser lights look just like reflections of a Poser glowing sphere. I have several hammered versions that are really beautiful. I don't know of anybody outside guys at Pixar who can match what I'm doing. Not even at SM.
Looking at yours, Miss Nancy, I see:
There is diffuse there in your shader. I measured it on real gold - polished gold diffuse response is less than .1%. Get rid of that.
You don't have the right change in color as a function of viewing angle. That was really tricky and took me a long time to get right.
Did you use the color I gave for straight on? It seems to look a bit too green. That looks more like brass.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Afrodite-Ohki posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 2:45 PM
Quote - Oh anybody who can figure out what to do is free to post it. Believe me, you're not going to match what I have. I have the same shader doing several golds, several coppers, several brass, bronze, silver, platinum, steel - in all of these I have various finishes (smooth to blurry/rough). I have grain and mottling where needed. I have the specular node perfectly tuned to match the blur and IOR so that reflections of Poser lights look just like reflections of a Poser glowing sphere. I have several hammered versions that are really beautiful. I don't know of anybody outside guys at Pixar who can match what I'm doing. Not even at SM.
Now you're just making me impatient LOL
Release that already, will you? (Please?)
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
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BionicRooster posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 2:52 PM Forum Moderator
Yeah BB, hurry up and finish the pack already, you'll have an instant #1 product!
So get off yer arse, perfect what you believe to be incorrect, and give it to us already! lol
Just kidding, don't rush it cuz us buttheads are impatient hehehe
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Miss Nancy posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 5:20 PM
o.k., here's one where it's (255, 215, 147), more colour change and less diffuse. it looks less cartoonish in this one, but they may expect cartoonish gold if they haven't got a few pieces lying around to compare to their renders.
bagginsbill posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 5:51 PM
MN - 100 times better!
Are you using GC or no?
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Miss Nancy posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 6:52 PM
no, it was HSVTM=1.67, gain =1.33, envdome/hdri and one inf lite at 75%, 4 IDL bounces (quickie).
it's gonna look too dark to many, as this sponza building is like an elevator shaft - even with 16 bounces there ain't much to reflect, excepting the floor. it would look better in something bright with alotta sky, e.g. the free OBL compound and envdome. or I could put some lites in the sponza atrium.
bagginsbill posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 7:25 PM
That looks really good.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 7:26 PM
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Latexluv posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 9:52 PM
Are you thinking to include some rusted and dented metals?
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 15 July 2011 at 10:01 PM
Over time - initially I just need to get this basic/essential shader done and out the door.
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Winterclaw posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 12:25 AM
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
kawecki posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 1:02 AM
Stupidity also evolves!
Miss Nancy posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 5:58 PM
ricardo, to do one of these in poser 4 or earlier, place a camera with focal length = 1 mm at location of gold object, delete gold object, render the scene with that camera, then use that render as the reflection map for the gold object.
what one notices when holding a large flat gold surface next to various coloured surfaces: it reflects red, orange, green and purple rather well, but blue looks almost black, hence one may need to decrease blue value in head-on colour of procedural.
kawecki posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 9:55 PM
Some critics. The romm in the scene looks very good, but the covenant ark looks very bad. The poles or handles are completely black without any relief and un-natural. The ark itself doesn't look as gold. It can look as metal or painted metal that has suffered severy corrosion or have been exposed to the environment for some centuries. The object in the back has gold reflections, but looks more as a black magic mirror.
Stupidity also evolves!
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 9:58 PM
Quote - Some critics. The romm in the scene looks very good, but the covenant ark looks very bad. The poles or handles are completely black without any relief and un-natural. The ark itself doesn't look as gold. It can look as metal or painted metal that has suffered severy corrosion or have been exposed to the environment for some centuries. The object in the back has gold reflections, but looks more as a black magic mirror.
In which image? The one just above your post? The handles show up brown on my monitor and look like wood. Might need to have a look at your monitor, maybe? :biggrin:
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Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
kawecki posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 10:20 PM
Quote - In which image? The one just above your post? The handles show up brown on my monitor and look like wood. Might need to have a look at your monitor, maybe?
In the image above. The poles doesn't look as wood and look dark and flat 2D surface (RGB 48.8.0) no matter how adjust the monitor. But the room continue to look very good in my monitor
Stupidity also evolves!
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 10:31 PM
Okay, I'll take your word for it, Kawecki. However, on my monitor, the handles look like a rose-wood, with a wood-grainish texture. Might need to check my monitor, then. :blink: Wonder what the original intent was of the image maker? Black or rose-wood? Or something else?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Winterclaw posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 10:38 PM
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
kawecki posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 10:41 PM
Well, not all the monitors looks the same, the famous gamma story. But, forget the handles, we are not discussing wood that is other story. Our focus is gold.
Stupidity also evolves!
kawecki posted Sat, 16 July 2011 at 11:27 PM
Returning to the gold question.
We must understand the behaviour of metals and the behaviour of metals can be very different depending on the roughness of its surface.
1-
Metals with very low roughness behaves as a mirror. In this case if we use Phong, Blinn or Torrance it will not make any difference. Just set the reflective color and use raytracing. With gold you set the reflective color to some yellow, with copper to some orange and with silver to white.
A metal with very low roughness it will act as a mirror and you will not see the metallic object, you will see distorsed reflections from the environment where the distorsion will depend on the geometric shape of the object. With planar surfaces there is not disrtion at all and you see a perfect mirror image on the object's surface.
2-
The other case are very rough metals. Very rough metals don't produce mirror-like reflections. Phong and Blinn are inadequated for this case. Torrance works pretty well. The main characteristics of very rough metals is that have a big specular area and illumination falling quickly beyond this area. You can approximate using Phong with very low exponent values (1 to 4), but is not the same as Torrance and don't produce off-specular peaks. This is what I used in my picture posted aomewhere above.
3-
For intermediate roughness metals there is no simple solution, there do not exist a simple model for this.
4-
In all the cases the diffuse compont of metals is very small or zero.
5-
For making images of metallic objects things get very complicated, unless we use simple geometric shapes as the famous metallic spheres.
The behaviour of a metallic surface changes dramatically with the roughness and roughness can be changed polishing the metallic object. If the object is not a simple geometrical shape and many times has a complicated shape the polishing is never perfect and so, we will have areas that have been polished very well, for eample the borders, and other areas where we were not able to polish.
The result is that we have a metallic object with areas that act as an almost perfect mirror and other areas that have a very rough surface.
Stupidity also evolves!
cherokee69 posted Sun, 17 July 2011 at 5:50 AM
Quote - > Quote - In which image? The one just above your post? The handles show up brown on my monitor and look like wood. Might need to have a look at your monitor, maybe?
In the image above. The poles doesn't look as wood and look dark and flat 2D surface (RGB 48.8.0) no matter how adjust the monitor. But the room continue to look very good in my monitor
The poles look brown on my monitor.
Miss Nancy posted Sun, 17 July 2011 at 3:10 PM
on some monitors the gold is gonna look too dark, hence the wood will also look very dark on those monitors. but looking at gold pieces, I realised it's difficult to even photograph them properly to show them off, the same as trying to photograph the dispersion fx of faceted gems.
The poles look brown to me as well (tops average ~ 90,30,0); ISTR they were originally made of wood of that colour (the nile thorn-tree that giraffes like to eat), but they may need to lighter and more specular to show up well, to show any displacement on them. there also were several errors in the last render in re: lighting and bad welds/smoothing on the lion and wall/floor in the background. needs more IDL bounces/samples/shading rate. bill explained how to do blurred reflections in an earlier thread, to give reflection fall-off.
3Dave posted Sun, 17 July 2011 at 9:53 PM
Quote - I realised it's difficult to even photograph them properly to show them off, the same as trying to photograph the dispersion fx of faceted gems
especially when our view of how they "should" look is at least in part tainted by other post-worked images in the media?
Miss Nancy posted Mon, 18 July 2011 at 11:53 PM
Tried experimenting a little more, didn't think I made much in the way of improvements though.
wint, for optically accurate gold renders, we may await the debut of bill's metal shader pak. given the interest shown here, one would suggest including it (even if unfinished) in the next poser release (default runtime, procedurals) in order to obviate any marketplace issues.
p.s. somebody has got a gold sphere which one might compare to our renders, and some guy in ethiopia said he had an ark. when asked if we might see it, he went into his building and did something for a while. then he came out and averred that the ark was still extant, but wouldn't let us see it. :crying:
Afrodite-Ohki posted Tue, 19 July 2011 at 12:06 AM
Quote -
This looks f(*¨&¨$$&¨$%$ amazing.
And here I am, still failing miserably at getting anything to look anything near gold.
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
Miss Nancy posted Tue, 19 July 2011 at 12:16 AM
o.k., I'll give it up: bill actually posted the basic shader in his floor-tile thread. it's ... oh, fab, I can't even find it now. the one with the blue tiles and the procedural with the schlick approximation inside a red rectangle. all one really needs is to take a few fotos of some gold items, preferably as large, as flat and as solid gold as poss.
p.s. the coloured reflections may look fake, but I tried it with some flat gold surfaces and it really does reflect most colours quite well.
Winterclaw posted Tue, 19 July 2011 at 12:37 AM
Is it this thread?
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
Miss Nancy posted Tue, 19 July 2011 at 5:44 PM
yes, wint. if, in P8 or later, you can simplify that by deleting some of the tile nodes to get a gold-reflective surface, have 4 ray-trace bounces, use IDL if possible, use GCrender or similar etc., it may look more like gold. bill gave the gold colour in the first post. you know you're getting close when the bottom half of your sphere is gold, assuming a light diffuse floor colour and IDL.
Zaarin posted Thu, 28 July 2011 at 10:34 AM
Quote - Over time - initially I just need to get this basic/essential shader done and out the door.
Any approximate ETA for this and the BBEye? I've been trying to remap a lot of my Gen4 eyes over to the free version, but often they don't look as good as I'd like. :(
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 28 July 2011 at 12:58 PM
we're not certain when the metals shader pak will be released, however here's another one with a less chromatic room (red viper's e. d. warehouse). the reflections don't look as fake as they do in a room with saturated RGB wall hangings.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/full.php?image_id=2225157
bagginsbill posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 9:44 AM
Zaarin,
I sent a note to syyd at RDNA to begin discussion of putting the metals in a store. It's only been a day but haven't heard back yet. I haven't thought of going to Rendo or Daz as I feel they take too much percentage. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I don't know.
I have a question on metal packaging.
I generally do not make shader packs - I make one shader that does a thousand variations and expect you guys to figure out how to use the parameter nodes I set up to make it easy to control effects. Normally if I were publishing this metal as a freebie, that's what I'd do.
But I know that non-enthusiasts of the mat room will buy this. They will want presets. How far do I go?
I have 14 metal colors
I have 5 finishes (actually infinite number as it is a numeric parameter, but I could argue the need for 5 is all - mirror, polished, brushed, dull, matte)
I have 3 surfaces - smooth, hammered, distressed (again, really an infinite number, but let's say 3)
So that is 14 * 5 * 3 = 210 different materials.
Should I include 210 materials in the pack? Or 14 colors only and let users figure out how to do finish and surface? Or some selection of 20 or 30 that I think are most useful like brushed aluminum and steel, matte brass, hammered polished copper, distressed dull silver, etc?
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Acadia posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 11:03 AM
Quote - I sent a note to syyd at RDNA to begin discussion of putting the metals in a store.
Yay!!!
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
millighost posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 11:06 AM
Quote - ...
But I know that non-enthusiasts of the mat room will buy this. They will want presets. How far do I go?
I have 14 metal colors
I have 5 finishes (actually infinite number as it is a numeric parameter, but I could argue the need for 5 is all - mirror, polished, brushed, dull, matte)
I have 3 surfaces - smooth, hammered, distressed (again, really an infinite number, but let's say 3)
So that is 14 * 5 * 3 = 210 different materials.
Should I include 210 materials in the pack? Or 14 colors only and let users figure out how to do finish and surface? Or some selection of 20 or 30 that I think are most useful like brushed aluminum and steel, matte brass, hammered polished copper, distressed dull silver, etc?
If i search in the marketplace here for "materials" i would say that 210 is not an especially large number for a material package. 200-300 seems to be quite common, with the filesize still being very small.
I would desist from including an actual infinite number of .mt5 files, however: zip files cannot handle this very well :-)
bagginsbill posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 11:17 AM
Thanks for the feedback. By filesize still small, what do we look for here?
Remember, this is a BB material, physically accurate, with automatic GC. It is 64 nodes per material.
I wonder if the fact that they are identical files except for a few numbers will make them compress together better than usual.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
bagginsbill posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 11:23 AM
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
millighost posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 11:44 AM
Quote - Even with automation, it took over an hour to generate the thumbnails, and now I'm not happy with them. Sigh.
Hm, i would include just the plate in the thumbnail (if the materials contain displacement and/or absolute unit-dependent values) or the orb (if they do not).
Also i would try to make everything fit into 10MB if possible.
I personally would be suspicious about the automatic GC if i read it in a description, BTW. What does this mean? Perhaps you might consider offering a GC and a non-GC version of each material?
Ah, and include subdirectories for the different colors, please.
Hope not sounding too demanding here, it is just my personal opinion, but since you asked... :-)
Ghostofmacbeth posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 1:22 PM
I think the different shapes are good to show things react. I would put them in a gold, silver, bronze, etc. subdirecotry. I don't think that the file count is too much.
Zaarin posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 2:44 PM
Quote - Zaarin,
I sent a note to syyd at RDNA to begin discussion of putting the metals in a store. It's only been a day but haven't heard back yet. I haven't thought of going to Rendo or Daz as I feel they take too much percentage. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I don't know.
I have a question on metal packaging.
I generally do not make shader packs - I make one shader that does a thousand variations and expect you guys to figure out how to use the parameter nodes I set up to make it easy to control effects. Normally if I were publishing this metal as a freebie, that's what I'd do.
But I know that non-enthusiasts of the mat room will buy this. They will want presets. How far do I go?
I have 14 metal colors
I have 5 finishes (actually infinite number as it is a numeric parameter, but I could argue the need for 5 is all - mirror, polished, brushed, dull, matte)
I have 3 surfaces - smooth, hammered, distressed (again, really an infinite number, but let's say 3)
So that is 14 * 5 * 3 = 210 different materials.
Should I include 210 materials in the pack? Or 14 colors only and let users figure out how to do finish and surface? Or some selection of 20 or 30 that I think are most useful like brushed aluminum and steel, matte brass, hammered polished copper, distressed dull silver, etc?
Good news! :) People want options when it comes to materials, especially since it seems even more people are allergic to the material room than the cloth room. I'd include as many presets as possible; as several people here have said already, 210 is not really a large number of materials for a material pack. Also, I second (third?) the suggestion of subfolders; it makes things a lot easier to keep track of. Of course, I sort my library myself so I can easily enough resort it if its not. Others may not do so, however, and seeing 210 items in one folder could be a little daunting.
Acadia posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 4:29 PM
Quote - People want options when it comes to materials, especially since it seems even more people are allergic to the material room than the cloth room. I'd include as many presets as possible
That made me laugh!! I agree about the options. Since all I can really do in the material room is connnect a basic node to the poser surface node, and possibly tweak the colour of something, the more options I have available in a materials package the better.
Also, since I'm highly organized, I like the idea of sub folders.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
bagginsbill posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 5:57 PM
Ah but which subfolder organization - whatever I pick surely someone will not like it.
There are two golds. There are four brasses. Two coppers. Only one each of steel, aluminum, silver, chrome, and platinum. Do I:
Put Gold and Gold2 in separate or same folders? (Think carefully as you imagine yourself trying out which you like better.)
Put Brass 1, 2, 3, 4 in separate or same folders?
Is breakdown by color really the first division? Suppose you know you want a polished metal for everything, but some are silver, some gold, some brass. Do you want the top folder to be Polished, and it contains all the colors?
Where does hammered and distressed come? At the top, 3 folders, Smooth, Hammered, Distressed? Or do you expect to find those variations together in a Polished Golds folder?
I can't figure out the best structure based on guessing use cases.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Zaarin posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 7:56 PM
Quote - Ah but which subfolder organization - whatever I pick surely someone will not like it.
There are two golds. There are four brasses. Two coppers. Only one each of steel, aluminum, silver, chrome, and platinum. Do I:
Put Gold and Gold2 in separate or same folders? (Think carefully as you imagine yourself trying out which you like better.)
Put Brass 1, 2, 3, 4 in separate or same folders?
Is breakdown by color really the first division? Suppose you know you want a polished metal for everything, but some are silver, some gold, some brass. Do you want the top folder to be Polished, and it contains all the colors?
Where does hammered and distressed come? At the top, 3 folders, Smooth, Hammered, Distressed? Or do you expect to find those variations together in a Polished Golds folder?
I can't figure out the best structure based on guessing use cases.
I'd personally like to see them separated by color, with Gold 1 and Gold 2 as separate etc. For my workflow at least that would be what I would choose--I usually know what metal I want and can decide finish from there. shrug
Acadia posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 8:00 PM
I think just a folder for each metal type would work. IE: Gold; Brass; Copper, or whatever metals you are going to have.
I do love sub folders, but there does some a time where there is too many. For example, a folder for each colour of gold that contains just 3 shaders such as "brushed", "Shiney" and "dented"
I think all shades of gold and its various textures should be in one folder. All shades of copper and its various textures in another, etc.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
RedPhantom posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 8:29 PM Online Now! Site Admin
Could a script be written where you check a box for choice of color (gold/platnum/etc.) , reflection (matte/mirror) and then a surface condition (hammered/brushed/distressed/etc.) option that you could check more than one and have amounts that could be entered for each? Perhaps also include a small amount of mat files too.
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bagginsbill posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 10:28 PM
Quote - Could a script be written where you check a box for choice of color (gold/platnum/etc.) , reflection (matte/mirror) and then a surface condition (hammered/brushed/distressed/etc.) option that you could check more than one and have amounts that could be entered for each? Perhaps also include a small amount of mat files too.
With the understanding that there is no GUI, I already wrote such a script. It's called matmatic. And this is how I make the 210 shaders.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
RobynsVeil posted Fri, 29 July 2011 at 11:59 PM
Quote - > Quote - Could a script be written where you check a box for choice of color (gold/platnum/etc.) , reflection (matte/mirror) and then a surface condition (hammered/brushed/distressed/etc.) option that you could check more than one and have amounts that could be entered for each? Perhaps also include a small amount of mat files too.
With the understanding that there is no GUI, I already wrote such a script. It's called matmatic. And this is how I make the 210 shaders.
Coming in a bit late, but whole-heartedly agreeing with Acadia and everyone else: the more options, the merrier. Too bad the thumbnails can't be generated in matmatic as well, but I'm sure you could script something in Photoshop that would give you the requisite variances of colour.
And I'm already in the queue to Buy this, basically on Principle. After all the gifts you've given us, Ted, I'm elated to see you finally getting a bit more than just a few " 'ats-a-way! " for your efforts!
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 12:01 AM
BTW, no day goes by (when I do get a chance to open Poser) that I don't open Notepad++ to write/mod a matmatic script and then compile... not a single day. Needs to be part of the next version of Poser, to my view!
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Afrodite-Ohki posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 12:24 PM
My question is: Will it be a merchant resource? (Pleeease?)
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
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bagginsbill posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 1:10 PM
So the merchant resource issue is fascinating. Ugh - so many things to think about when trying to make money!!!
Keep in mind that all these materials are actually the same shader, identical, except for a few parameters.
The hardest of these parameters to figure out was the color and reflectivity coefficient (expressed as IOR). I've done that work so you get realistic results with no effort.
So now you build a prop - perhaps jewelry - and sell it with all 14 metals. And the other 200 are just a click away by editing the parameters in any of those 14 metals. I myself could model a pair of hoop earrings in 5 minutes or less, so it's no big deal to "add value" to the product and avoid directly selling the metal shaders alone and violating merchant resource rules.
Basically you've embedded my product in yours through five minutes of work. Now people have a choice to buy mine or yours, probably at similar or lower prices than mine. How do I make money? Do I get to charge more for the merchant resource license? Or do I get a cut of your product? How does this work?
This is not like a skin texture, where the rule is you have to go and substantially change the texture before you sell it as part of a character. These are basic metals, with as much realism as I can assemble. It means that if you were to substantially change the shader before reselling, you'd basically be ruining it.
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vilters posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 1:40 PM
@BB
Before selling something as material nodes, there is another question to answer.
And beware, not a easy one.
What you made looks fantastic.
But??
When all is said and done, in front of a jury, anyone (mathematically speaking) can make the same thing.
So the question is: Whith what criteria or proof do I file a complaint?
As you said yourself: the first juwelery sold will have your material nodes in it.
From there it is out of control.
I buy a juwelery with one of your materials in it, but as usual; "Who reads a read-me file"????
A few weeks later, I build and start selling a kitchen.
And i use some nodes I found in the juwelery for the sink.
One small part, of a total of some 25-30 materials.
What about?
Oh, yeah, just accidentaly, I bought the juwelery from a chap in Ourboekoen, live myself in Whocareswhereland, and sell at a server on a Moonlike Cloud.
And? I made a "ahum" single mistake, some 5 decimals behind the comma.. ha-ha-ha-
But, all this is for every one that sells stuff.
You worry about it, or you do not.
But? And that is your smart bright side, you already made those reflections yourself.
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
bagginsbill posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 1:51 PM
vilters,
I have never had to pursue these ideas and questions until now. But I have thought about some a little bit. Whether my reasoning holds up to Rendo or actual legal standards - who knows.
Anyway - a shader is actually a program. In fact, the shader I made is the output of a compiler, with a specific source code as input. While you may use the same math, you may not use the same source code. Same as if I make a program to do linear regression, and you do also - we may both sell this program without fear of intellectual property, because linear regression is math. But it may be that mine is a copy of yours, in which case I have violated your copyright.
In the case of a two-node shader, there is no question that "copyright" cannot be claimed. However, with 60 nodes doing things in just such and such a way that only I seem to know how to do - well that is easy to judge, don't you think?
Yes you can make a metal shader, and it may have 30 nodes and use the same colors I do - but you may NOT use exactly the same 60 nodes that I have used. At that point, the complexity is enough to demonstrate that it is software, and software is protected by copyright.
The idea of a metal shader with specific features may be protected by patent. But I have no intention of pursuing any sort of patent protection. For example, you could argue that I invented the idea for auto-shader GC and that is patentable, whether or not it is done in a Poser shader. But I'm not going to bother with anything like that. I encourage people to use the ideas freely.
I'm concerned about the weeks of measurement I did - and the information of how to do gold accurately - that results in direct copying with no effort. That is bothersome. I looked everywhere for this information and it was not available. Clearly I did research and development, resulting in a shader that no one else produced up to that point. Discovering and exploiting physical properties is not pure math and is protectable, in theory.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
vilters posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 2:00 PM
Right, we are on the same track here.
At my last job in the Belgian Air Force, before retirement, I was reponsable for the application of Standards and Norms.
ISO, DIN, EN Norms, Stanags, and so on. (including copyright issues)
So I know their value in court.
It is rightfully very wise to think about it beforehand.
As you clearly did.
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 4:57 PM
Reverse-engineering a complex shader generated by matmatic/Poser is not possible (just in case someone was thinking that might be an idea): matmatic creates a node set based on efficiency, which may or may not be what you'd expect to see based on the mathmatics or code you'd compiled.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
millighost posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 5:52 PM
Quote - Reverse-engineering a complex shader generated by matmatic/Poser is not possible (just in case someone was thinking that might be an idea): matmatic creates a node set based on efficiency, which may or may not be what you'd expect to see based on the mathmatics or code you'd compiled.
Oh, but then there no danger in trying it, is there? But then how would you know the shader does what you wanted it do do? :-)
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 5:55 PM
Quote - > Quote - Reverse-engineering a complex shader generated by matmatic/Poser is not possible (just in case someone was thinking that might be an idea): matmatic creates a node set based on efficiency, which may or may not be what you'd expect to see based on the mathmatics or code you'd compiled.
Oh, but then there no danger in trying it, is there? But then how would you know the shader does what you wanted it do do? :-)
Nope, no danger. 
Good luck - I tried. :biggrin: You'd kind-of have to know the shortcuts/optimisation algorythms matmatic takes to create node sets - it's not a one-to-one relationship between code and nodes.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Winterclaw posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 6:19 PM
Quote - I know that non-enthusiasts of the mat room will buy this. They will want presets. How far do I go? I have 14 metal colors
I have 5 finishes (actually infinite number as it is a numeric parameter, but I could argue the need for 5 is all - mirror, polished, brushed, dull, matte)
I have 3 surfaces - smooth, hammered, distressed (again, really an infinite number, but let's say 3)
So that is 14 * 5 * 3 = 210 different materials.
Should I include 210 materials in the pack? Or 14 colors only and let users figure out how to do finish and surface? Or some selection of 20 or 30 that I think are most useful like brushed aluminum and steel, matte brass, hammered polished copper, distressed dull silver, etc?
What, no fantasy metals? Like "mythril" from the lotr movies?
As for structure, you can either do by metal, maybe lumping the ones you have more than one of together, or by finish (mirrored, hammered). If it were me I'd go by metal.
About the merchant resource, you might make a "crippled" version for a MR. Fewer metal options and I know you like to add extra controls... you can get rid of those. you can also maybe simplify the nodes for something that is close to the BB metals for sale, but slightly less real. But it kind of sounds like you don't want to go the last route. And you are right to be worried about the color, IOR, and whatever other measurements you have being stolen.
Hmm. Maybe not doing an MR for it until you know what you'd be dealing with before then would be the best idea. People can always say this is the item with BB's shaders (sold seperately). If others like it so much, they can go and buy it for themselves.
Finally, have you considered a scientific paper on the numbers? If they are going to be stolen anyways, at the least you'd get some recognition for your efforts.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
Zaarin posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 7:22 PM
Quote - People can always say this is the item with BB's shaders (sold seperately). If others like it so much, they can go and buy it for themselves.
This sounds like the best route to me, personally.
Afrodite-Ohki posted Sat, 30 July 2011 at 9:41 PM
About Merchant Resources: limitations can and are often included in the Readme and product files. If a person doesn't read your limitations and makes a product ignoring them, one needs to only complain and most stores either remove the product or require the vendor to fix it. In ANY case, the only person licensed to distribute your Merchant Resource is the person who BOUGHT it, and that person is bound by the limitations you impose on your resource.
Most material resources I have place limitations on their included seamless textures that the materials use (i.e. a person can use in a single product 4 of the 30 textures included in the merchant resource).
Your product uses only procedurals; you could say something like "use only 5 of the variations included, or only 10 of your own modified variations of this shader, in any one product you create". Also the "you can't use these shaders for freely-distributed products, only for commercial products". There's also the "these shaders can only be X% of the value of your product", but that one is harder to impose as it's so... relative, so to say.
Bottom line is: you already mentioned the color of gold here, for anyone to see. Surely I can't do much with that tiny bit of information, as important as it is; however, anyone of enough understanding of materials to actually FIND this information inside your 60-node-shader will know that a person is not licensed to simply copy your nodes and use them in their own materials for redistribution.
I do, however, have the impression that vendors worry more about the quality of the materials they use than regular users, so maybe you'd lose a good share of potential buyers if you don't make it a merchant resource. I, for one, never buy material packs unless I can use some of those materials in my products (I might end up buying yours, because I love your stuff and because I think you deserve at least that bit of my money for how much you've helped my material knowledge improve, but I'd sorely miss the ability to use these metals in my clothing and hair packs). Legally, a person who buys a product that includes your shaders would mostly be able to copy those shaders only to paste on their own scenes (maybe not even that) and NEVER to redistribute them; plus most people wouldn't know what in those 60 nodes to change in order to have a different metal color or feature, so they'd be stuck with that particular metal included in the product they have (hence the limitation to use X number of your shaders in a single product). They might even like it so much that they decide to buy your shader pack just to have the other options (might be a long shot, but it does happen!).
All in all, I guess it would be worth the extra you'd get from vendors who need good metals in their products, and being a resource might give it enough extra value to pump the price up a bit. And I swear I'm trying not to be biased here just because I really (really) want it as a resource LOL
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
Zaarin posted Sat, 06 August 2011 at 11:28 AM
Any news on this? :)
bagginsbill posted Sat, 06 August 2011 at 12:58 PM
I'm in contact with Colm - getting myself set up as a vendor.
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Eric Walters posted Sat, 06 August 2011 at 8:13 PM
Glad to hear it! I usually do my picky renders in Lightwave- multiply faster than FireFly-but given that the only reason I can even LOOK at Poser skin renders is VSS- I think I will buy your new shader!
Quote - I'm in contact with Colm - getting myself set up as a vendor.
Zaarin posted Sun, 07 August 2011 at 4:26 PM
Quote - I'm in contact with Colm - getting myself set up as a vendor.
Sweet. :)
Winterclaw posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 3:11 PM
Still seems too much like tinted chrome than gold to me.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
bagginsbill posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 4:13 PM
Because, as I said, the color changes with angle of incidence. A single tint applied in every direction leaves out some things that are in that last 5% towards realism. It's what I worked on so hard.
Also, your environment is decidedly low dynamic range, which makes the reflections seem dull. Try to use an HDR environment and see what you get.
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mamba-negra posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 4:51 PM Online Now!
BB, for those who want to resell your shaders, you could always offer a special licensed version which is more expensive. Surely you could make minor changes to the shader so that it was obvious to you which was for sale and which was purchased for personal use.
Can't wait to get a copy. I think this is one of poser's biggest limitations: good procedural textures.
Anthanasius posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 6:18 PM
Hum hum ...
Before selling, are all these shaders P2012 compatible ? If not it's totally useless for me.
Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site
bagginsbill posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 8:42 PM
Also the wood is procedural - next package.
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bagginsbill posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 8:46 PM
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Afrodite-Ohki posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 8:49 PM
Quote - Hum hum ...
Before selling, are all these shaders P2012 compatible ? If not it's totally useless for me.
Poser's policy has always favored backwards compatibility. I seriously doubt they'll ever allow newer versions to be unable to load content made in older versions properly.
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
bagginsbill posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 8:52 PM
Correct. There are nodes that should have been deleted already but they are kept for compatibility.
Who would use the skin node today? LOL
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Latexluv posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 8:52 PM
I have been admiring the demo renders you have been showing us! Makes me itchy to have Pro2012 on my system now.
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
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Winterclaw posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 9:23 PM
Quote - Because, as I said, the color changes with angle of incidence. A single tint applied in every direction leaves out some things that are in that last 5% towards realism. It's what I worked on so hard. Also, your environment is decidedly low dynamic range, which makes the reflections seem dull. Try to use an HDR environment and see what you get.
Actually I remembered that part, but I'm still working on it. I'm also probably nowhere close to getting to it because as of now that shader was... maybe a dozen nodes.
I'll look into HDR enviroments as well. I don't think I've used things like that before yet.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
Winterclaw posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 9:27 PM
Quote - Correct. There are nodes that should have been deleted already but they are kept for compatibility.
Wouldn't it be possible to delete those node and let the program auto-convert them into a current node set up.
Let's be honest, if new to this and I never heard of rendo and I tried to make a human skin texture, one of the first things I'd probably do was try the node that's called skin. From a newbie's perspective that choice would be a no-brainer.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
bagginsbill posted Sat, 13 August 2011 at 9:51 PM
The right thing to do is called deprecation.
Note that word is not depreciation. It's deprecation.
When you deprecate a feature, old files that use it still work, but nobody can pick that feature any more. It's removed from the user interface options so you can't add it. They should do that.
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Tucan-Tiki posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 12:14 PM
gold is silver if it's pure, considered white gold.
only looks like that smitten with copper to make it yellow.
bagginsbill posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 12:21 PM
Are you joking or misinformed?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold
While pure gold is yellow in color, colored gold can be developed into various colors. These colors are generally obtained by alloying gold with other elements in various proportions
White gold is an alloy of gold and at least one white metal, usually nickel, manganese or palladium. Like yellow gold, the purity of white gold is given in karats.
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Winterclaw posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 3:36 PM
Whoa, that's weird. After the first link in bill's post, all the other ones point to a hypothetical rendo wiki.
And I agree depreciation would be the right thing to do. I got a little annoyed when I saw that SM brought back the two reflect_lite checkboxes again.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
bagginsbill posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 4:08 PM
I quoted wiki, and the links are relative links. I didn't mean to put them there but they were in the source and I didn't want to bother removing them.
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lkendall posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 7:50 PM
I would love to buy the complete bagginsbill compendium of materials. I await my opportunity (impatiently).
If I should ever get to the point of being able to make a product to sell (ROFLOL), and I wanted to use a BB material, I think I would contact BB directly to purchase the right to use his materials on a material by material basis.
Personally, I think SM should buy materials from BB to include in each version of Poser like with WW2 by PhilC. That makes the most sense to me.
lmk
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
RobynsVeil posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 7:56 PM
The he could charge royalties? Cool idea. Perhaps.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
kawecki posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 8:44 PM
Stupidity also evolves!
Miss Nancy posted Sun, 14 August 2011 at 10:19 PM
aluminium appears to reflect blue the best of those. this must be why they make second-surface mirrors with aluminium coatings, as silver don't reflect blue and it goes black in houses where they suck back alotta eggs.
for some reason SM didn't wanna buy those shaders :crying:
isikol posted Mon, 15 August 2011 at 6:30 AM
Quote - My plan is to sell this shader, not give it away. My wife is really mad at me for never selling anything, always giving it away.
wives are always mad about something... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
AnAardvark posted Tue, 30 August 2011 at 1:21 PM
That wood shader was also amazing.
SamTherapy posted Tue, 30 August 2011 at 2:46 PM
Quote - for some reason SM didn't wanna buy those shaders :crying:
SM need a good slap.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
mamba-negra posted Tue, 30 August 2011 at 7:09 PM Online Now!
Any news? I've been actually checking RDNA regularly for this, lol:)
bagginsbill posted Tue, 30 August 2011 at 10:30 PM
I move very slooooowwly. I have a lot of stuff going on at home and work. Just came off a week's vacation in Florida and am about to go on another one.
I had hoped to get it out by now, but I am overwhelmed. Don't worry - it will happen.
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lkendall posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 9:24 AM
bagginsbill:
If anyone deserves a vacation, you do.
We all know you won't release a product until you know that everything is right. We can wait... a little while. :)
lmk
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
Miss Nancy posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 2:47 PM
my vote for the next vacation would be somewhere away from those earthquakes and hurricanes. maybe canada or new mexico or something.
Afrodite-Ohki posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 2:50 PM
We don't have hurricanes or earthquakes down here in Brazil. I'm betting you guys would love our beaches (sadly, I live 5 hours away from the nearest one)...
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 3:09 PM
While I love faraway beaches, this is a special trip. My wife and I will be guests on our friends' yacht for a week.
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parkdalegardener posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 3:15 PM
Quote - my vote for the next vacation would be somewhere away from those earthquakes and hurricanes. maybe canada or new mexico or something.
Lately here in Canada it's been tornadoes and post tropical storms. Haven't had an earthquake in my neighbourhood in 2 or 3 years.
Zaarin posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 6:50 PM
Quote - I move very slooooowwly. I have a lot of stuff going on at home and work. Just came off a week's vacation in Florida and am about to go on another one.
I had hoped to get it out by now, but I am overwhelmed. Don't worry - it will happen.
If you need any help with anything, I'd be happy to assist in any way I can. :)
Coleman posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 8:45 PM
Looking forward to the excellent shader pack!
Hope ya have a good 2nd vacation
kawecki posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 8:56 PM
Quote - We don't have hurricanes or earthquakes down here in Brazil.
But we have global warming in winter and global freezing in summer or summer and winter in the same day, and I hate rain !
Stupidity also evolves!
Afrodite-Ohki posted Wed, 31 August 2011 at 9:02 PM
Quote - > Quote - We don't have hurricanes or earthquakes down here in Brazil.
But we have global warming in winter and global freezing in summer or summer and winter in the same day, and I hate rain !
You're lucky. In my city, we have four seasons: summer, high-summer, hell on earth and "we can breathe again" (which is what people call winter)... LOL
- - - - - -
Feel free to call me Ohki!
Poser Pro 11, Poser 12 and Poser 13, Windows 10, Superfly junkie. My units are milimeters.
Persephone (the computer): AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, RTX 3070 GPU, 96gb ram.
GeneralNutt posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 12:43 AM
Can we pre order you shader packs? Become BB early adopter? Better yet get a yearly subscription and have them mailed to us?
kawecki posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 5:29 AM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - We don't have hurricanes or earthquakes down here in Brazil.
But we have global warming in winter and global freezing in summer or summer and winter in the same day, and I hate rain !
You're lucky. In my city, we have four seasons: summer, high-summer, hell on earth and "we can breathe again" (which is what people call winter)... LOL
I am not lucky, Tuesday I had 37 degree Celsius (100 F) and is still winter, this was good, but yesterday returned winter and I am freezing now. Sao Paulo da maldita garroa !!!
Stupidity also evolves!
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 11:35 AM
perhaps bill could just e-mail his prelim shader pak to rdna and let their gofers finish it. delegation of authority and all that. as in poser releases, these things don't hafta be perfect - the early adopters can find all the bugs that need to be fixed.
bagginsbill posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 12:05 PM
My wife said that. I find I am unable to release something with even the slightest possibility that it misbehaves.
I'm fairly well convinced the shaders are actually perfect enough - it's the prep for store that is holding me up. They have specific formats for things and I have to do promo shots - blah. I am not a marketing person.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
BionicRooster posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 12:43 PM Forum Moderator
Do like the rest of us lazy bastards do.... Outsource! lol
I'll gladly toss a product to a few people for promo's and testing. Saves me the trouble, and they're usually better than I am anyways at image composition. I think I'm more of a modeler than an image maker.
Poser 10
Octane Render
Wings 3D
Latexluv posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 5:16 PM
Quote - My wife said that. I find I am unable to release something with even the slightest possibility that it misbehaves.
I'm fairly well convinced the shaders are actually perfect enough - it's the prep for store that is holding me up. They have specific formats for things and I have to do promo shots - blah. I am not a marketing person.
Been there, done that, several time here at Rendo. I have thought about selling through RDNA but have not looked into their requirements. I will say that several images you have already posted in this thread would make wonderful demo pictures for your product. And as BionicRooster says, I'm sure that there are people willing to product test for you and do demo renders for you. I've got the time, I could demo for you. I have Poser 5 through Pose 8 (yeah, and hopefully Poser Pro 2012 soon!). Hmm, having demo pics by several different artists might be quite unique as far as advertising goes.
"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate
Weapons of choice:
Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8
GeneralNutt posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 9:49 PM
bagginsbill posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 10:38 PM
No - I was going to just let RDNA decide that or at least advise.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 01 September 2011 at 11:07 PM
pre-order $9.99 american, then goes to $19.99 after release IMVHO. based on 2,500 sales. YMMV
shuy posted Fri, 02 September 2011 at 3:02 AM
Quote - No - I was going to just let RDNA decide that or at least advise.
Are you sure that you can find adviser on RDNA or here? How many of them had solid gold in theirs hand? ;)
kalrua posted Mon, 05 September 2011 at 5:29 PM
Quote - The color of metals
Eh!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_coefficient
Nd= n+ Ki
n=refractive index
k=Extinction coefficient: imaginary part of complex index of refraction
I= Watts/Steradians
Nd=Final refractive index
Okay ?
http://refractiveindex.info/?group=METALS&material=Gold
Enjoy
Sorry for my bad english, but, the realistic metal is not possible into poser (need spectral simulation )......., (7 hours of simulation for 24 poly and 3 raytrace bounces)
Gold
Silver
Nickel
Zaarin posted Fri, 30 September 2011 at 12:14 PM
I know you've been busy with the new Poser release; with that out now, any news on these?
Miss Nancy posted Sun, 02 October 2011 at 10:57 PM
laurie posted metals shader pak in freestuff. one might try those.
kawecki posted Sun, 02 October 2011 at 11:20 PM
Quote - Some critics. The romm in the scene looks very good, but the covenant ark looks very bad. The poles or handles are completely black without any relief and un-natural. The ark itself doesn't look as gold. It can look as metal or painted metal that has suffered severy corrosion or have been exposed to the environment for some centuries. The object in the back has gold reflections, but looks more as a black magic mirror.
Update: Now I have a fresh new LED monitor, the poles don't look black, now are dark brown, but continue to look without relief. The other comments remain still valid.
My new LED monitor has three gammas, gamma1, gamma2 and gamma3, which one have I to use ?
Stupidity also evolves!
Miss Nancy posted Mon, 03 October 2011 at 11:57 AM
try this one, ricardo. set monitor to gamma 2.
I fixed the handles on the ark, however I haven't got any corroded gold pieces lying around, in case you've got some fotos for reference. I rather doubt they'd use gold paint on the ark. those egyptian sarcophagi were usually acacia wood with gold foil hammered on them.
kawecki posted Mon, 03 October 2011 at 12:28 PM
The ball looks very good.
I don't know where you can find corroded gold, maybe some miners can have gold reacting with mercurium images. A friend of mine cleaned a Mexican gold coin, the coin looked beatiful with the shining gold, but he discovered that the coin lost most of its value. He aged the coin with chemical at the University laboratory and the coin returned to its original value.
Egyptians had fun with electricity, so they could make corroded gold, but this was beyond the capabilities of the people in the Bible, so probably the covenant ark looked as normal gold and not as in the image that I have referred.
Stupidity also evolves!