So I'm sitting around thinking about Genesis and DAZ and what all this means for Poser and Poser users. I really find it... bothersome that at this time, Poser or Smith Micro, doesn't at least let us, as their customers, know what they're planning for the next version. Make no mistake, I do understand why there are NDA's, but it just bugs me that except for Ratscloset and ThinkCooper stopping by now and then to respond to a complaint like Apple Lion OS and Poser conflict or the Camera Flyaround that never ends, We don't get much news about improvements coming up in the next version.

I'd also like to know what changes are being made in the figures that come with Poser. If Poser does include the new weightmapping technology of DAZ's, does that mean that all of the figures that come with Poser will be able to take advantage of that technology as well?

Like I said, just wondering because, well it kind of bothers me to not know.

Would be kind of nice though if SM asked our opinions for what the next version of Poser should include, even if they don't intend to use any of it.

I understand how challenging it is to be patient with the current buzz and hype that's enveloping the forums, but very shortly we will be opening up with lots of information. And even though I rarely post these days, I drop by the various Poser/3D forums daily to read and learn. We look forward to being able to fully share our plans.

You are too used to the pre-Gizmoz merger DAZ that was always telling everyone everything as soon as they thought of it and asking everyone's opinion.

Since January, that has pretty much gone by the wayside. The friendly, folksy, family DAZ is gone. In it's place is a business that has seen sales decline and large expenditures of cash for R&D fail to pay off. Prime example is the dynamic dloth. Dynamic cloth was announced in Fall 2006. We are now heading for MidSummer 2011. All they have to show for their expenditure is a Win 32 bit control plugin that works in DS3. No Mac versions at all, no 64 bit and who knows when they will get it working for any version of DS4. In essence, not much to show for all the money they've paid out.

Genesis is another huge roll of the dice. If SMS decides they aren't going to include it in the next version of Poser or can't include it (most likely because they're in their upgrade cycle and what's to be included in the upgrade is already set), their content sales will continue to go down.

As for SMS, Poser is only one of many apps they sell. SMS isn't and never was family or folksy. They are there to sell you the produt. Even if they put out a list right now of what's supposed to be included in the upgrade doesn't mean it will happen. EFrontiers put out a comparison chart when they were close to releasing the first Poser Pro. It was supposed to have a version of Quidam included. When it was released, no Quidam and no explanation.

Even if SMS does decide to go with a version of the Genesis rigging, I doubt very much other figures will be able to use it anymore than V4 can use the Genesis rigging in DS4.

If you have comments for SMS, why don't you go the the Poser page and use the contact us?

In the end, DAZ will do what it is going to do and SMS will do what it is going to do.

Quote - I understand how challenging it is to be patient with the current buzz and hype that's enveloping the forums, but very shortly we will be opening up with lots of information. And even though I rarely post these days, I drop by the various Poser/3D forums daily to read and learn. We look forward to being able to fully share our plans.

I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

even if Smith Micro implement weight mapping for many users it will be a non-issue because of cost. They have said support for Poser 7 is dead and thats what I have , so no P7 weight mapping.

Can I justify an upgrade to Poser pro - no. not at any price although 50 bucks might be tempting but I have better things to spend $250 on.

Quote - If you have comments for SMS, why don't you go the the Poser page and use the contact us?

Actually, I did. And as usual, I got back a form response telling me to go check a list of topics. My subject wasn't there. To be fair though, I did also get a response saying that they send back responses within one hour during business hours. So aside from the form response letter, I still expect one more reply later today.

Thanks, thinkcooper. It's nice to know someone's at least touching base.

Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

The answer is 42.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - > Quote - I understand how challenging it is to be patient with the current buzz and hype that's enveloping the forums, but very shortly we will be opening up with lots of information. And even though I rarely post these days, I drop by the various Poser/3D forums daily to read and learn. We look forward to being able to fully share our plans.

I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

I reccommend Tic Tacs Breath mints.

The poser question that CAN be answered

.....in due time ....just be patient padwan

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

This question is actually a very simple one.

And the only answer is in YOUR hands; "The users", the "customers".

The more idea's, proposals, requests, enhancements, are fed into "SM's contact us", the more they will have tot go in their customers requested direction.

The more problem reports they get, the faster they can find the weak links in the software.

The rooms - actions, with the most problem reports WILL certainly be looked at.

But ?
If only one single user wants a single Sprite, and 100 others want Lemmon Tea?

We all know what drink we 'll get.

Do not re-act. That is too late.

Act.
Before the other party acts in an unexpected way.

The military would say;"Offence is the best defence".

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

To take this a step further.

I like to see the forums as an open office to share information, tips and tricks, on how Poser works, and what results one can get.

Any problem, even soo small, should get reported to SM.
It might be a detail in your eyes, or a "minor" in your personal workflow, but together with other reports, it might point to a bigger problem and get solved.

Yes-yes, Poser has a huge learning curve, and some rooms could use a make over: face room, mat room, hair room, setup room, all have had their best years.
Some go back to Poser 4, others to Poser5.

Usability can be improved.
Some things could be made automatic.
Other could be made more "user friendly".

All this should go to the right ear.
The one that is listening.

So, report, inform SM via their website.

Best regards, and have a nice day
Tony

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

But???

Be aware for what you want????

Some time ago, everybody wanted higher poly figures.
Now we get High poly figures.

And, shit! They are close to impossible to rig......

Now we want a better rigging system..

The circle is almost complete...............................................................................

If we all had asked for Higher Quality LOW to Medium Poly figures.
We would never have had the need for another rigging system, and we would have had better figures..

Did???
Did anybody think about the outcome???

We WILL sooner or later get another rigging system, that is almost certain.
But, everything build before will almost certainly NOT be compatible with the "New" rigging.

See the hype around the Poser8 new capsules.

Some are going to have to walk this road again.
Some, not all, but some.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - > Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

Hey, quit pickin' on Laurie!!! She's cute, talented and sweet. And it's no you ain't, not "no you aren't." What are ya, some kind of Yankee grammar school marm? Why I oughtta....

Anyway what I expect, nay, demand, for the next release of Poser is an improved hair room, a tailor shop with basic clothing meshes that can be easily altered and made to conform to the figure being used with no more than two mouse clicks, a texture creation module that allows one to directly paint on a model's surface. It should also be cheap, crash proof, require no patches abd come with a complimentary, autographed nude photo of our favorite celebrity, excepting Lady Gaga or Madonna. That would be cruel.

P.S. I really would like that hair room and tailor shop. Also, the picture.

I am still a little bewildered by this desire to be told what is in the next version of Poser and, in particular, support for Genesis. I am not anti Daz but I have to say I have seen nothing yet that would make Genesis a 'must have' and I have seen the video, looked at the morphs and the new Character at Daz. When I see renders that show aspects not possible with the present V4 I will be interested.

I understand it is early days for Genesis and people need time to undersatnd the new figure but so far I am not really impressed.

So I am not at all interested in whether the next incarnation of Poser will have Genesis support. I might be interested in whether the Poser after that has support but until I can see something worth spending my money on I will continue my relationship with V4 and carry on trying to expand my knowledge of Poser and 3D art in general (and to think it will save me money to boot, a win win situation).

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Question for the OP: how much extra are you willing to pay for another rigging system and rigging tools? IIRC the ProPack add on for Poser 4 was somewhere in the $299 to $350 range back in 2001.

DAZ hasn't gotten around to telling potential buyers just how much their Content Creation Tools are going to cost. Or the final cost of their Pro version of DS.

Right now DS4 and Genesis is limited. You can pose but you can't rig or do anything else. If that's all you want for Poser then it probably wouldn't add much to cost. If you want the functionality you are used to in Poser (especially rigging and creating your own custom cr2's) be prepared for a much higher cost.

Quote - Question for the OP: how much extra are you willing to pay for another rigging system and rigging tools? IIRC the ProPack add on for Poser 4 was somewhere in the $299 to $350 range back in 2001.

DAZ hasn't gotten around to telling potential buyers just how much their Content Creation Tools are going to cost. Or the final cost of their Pro version of DS.

Right now DS4 and Genesis is limited. You can pose but you can't rig or do anything else. If that's all you want for Poser then it probably wouldn't add much to cost. If you want the functionality you are used to in Poser (especially rigging and creating your own custom cr2's) be prepared for a much higher cost.

The problem with your question is that it really has nothing to do with the original post I made. Whether or not I'm willing to pay more for Poser is irrelevant. What I want to know are the things that by their NDA, they can't seem to tell me now.

BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

Frankly, thinkcooper's response was fine for me. It's just... reassuring to know that somebody's there and they care.

What we probably SHOULD do;

Goto the International Standards Organisation, and force them to define a ISO norm for 3D rigging in softwares.

Problem solved, by guestimate around 2050?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - What we probably SHOULD do;

Goto the International Standards Organisation, and force them to define a ISO norm for 3D rigging in softwares.

Problem solved, by Poser Pro 2010

^^^ Fixed it for you Tony. COLLADA & ISO already play well together, and we're on the primary COLLADA work group, implementing their most thorough conformance test standards. Our Pro 2010 COLLADA support is about as robust as it gets these days. :-)

Quote - > Quote - Question for the OP: how much extra are you willing to pay for another rigging system and rigging tools? IIRC the ProPack add on for Poser 4 was somewhere in the $299 to $350 range back in 2001.

DAZ hasn't gotten around to telling potential buyers just how much their Content Creation Tools are going to cost. Or the final cost of their Pro version of DS.

Right now DS4 and Genesis is limited. You can pose but you can't rig or do anything else. If that's all you want for Poser then it probably wouldn't add much to cost. If you want the functionality you are used to in Poser (especially rigging and creating your own custom cr2's) be prepared for a much higher cost.

The problem with your question is that it really has nothing to do with the original post I made. Whether or not I'm willing to pay more for Poser is irrelevant. What I want to know are the things that by their NDA, they can't seem to tell me now.

BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

Frankly, thinkcooper's response was fine for me. It's just... reassuring to know that somebody's there and they care.

Sorry about the misinterpretation.

So, it seems that while at some point DAZ and SMS had a talk about wieight mapping and such, it may not have gone any further than that.

If SMS were to offer an add on the same as the did the old ProPack, how much would you pay for it?

This is just a friendly question, no attack. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

@ thinkcooper.

Not knowing that, is is the best news I'v read today.

In the Belgian Air Force, (I am retired now) I was responsible for the implementation of Standards and Norms.
I know their value.

GREAT news.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote -
Sorry about the misinterpretation.

So, it seems that while at some point DAZ and SMS had a talk about wieight mapping and such, it may not have gone any further than that.

If SMS were to offer an add on the same as the did the old ProPack, how much would you pay for it?

This is just a friendly question, no attack. You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Because I can't even take DS4 out on a test drive, I haven't used Genesis. So really, I'm not that sold on it one way or the other. I admit though that I would like to see Poser/SM up their game a bit in the figures department. I know that's not really what Poser's about, but on the other hand, It's the "Poser" community, not the "DAZ" community. DAZ shouldn't be telling Poser what to do or how to do it... (I feel).

That said, if Poser wants to charge for it's features the way DAZ does, I'd probably have to decide whther or not it was worth it on a case by case basis.

"It's the "Poser" community, not the "DAZ" community. DAZ shouldn't be telling Poser what to do or how to do it... (I feel)."

IIRC Daz never told SM to do anything.

I Think any Lingering wishful notions about the genesis figure magically working in any upcoming Poser 9 etc have
been Definatively laid to rest by the shrugging response you were given by the SM tech guy.

No genesis in poser ..case closed

we can Discuss other poser relevant matters now.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

STOP.

IF, and I choose my words, If PoserXYZ comes out with a really good new figure set included.

If that figure meets all demands.
If that figure had a very good texture to start his/her life with.
if that figure has the right proportions as a male and female should look.
If that figure is very well rigged (I personally do not care at all in what system. The simpler the better, I still like the KISS principle.)
But : if he/she bends as we all expect then to.
If there is support with a bunch of clothes, shoes, hair included in the release to start with.

So we all can start to learn, and get used to the "new" figure.

The rest will come automatically.
Free and to sell stuff WILL be made, but the figure HAS to be a good one.

I have no doubt they can do it.
Build it, beta test the hell out of them, and release in a future Poser version.
But? As with Poser?
Only release when ready.
Never - ever allow yourself to get hunted down into a release date.

When?
In 2 weeks.
But I do not give a countdown date to start from.... ha-ha-ha-

Then:
Genesis has no reason for existence any more an can go walkabout.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

You know, who really cares if poser does genesis. The figure is ok. I personally have no desire to buy another program just so I can use one figure. I know you can make this figure male/female/child eetc. I've seen the ads. I used the figure. I don't see much support for it. Shoot, I can find more for the poser figures. I'd rather have SM make more content for existing figures and new figures they make. And everybody will still be able to make their NVITWAS.

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

EClark 1894 wrote;

Quote - BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

Wolf359 wrote:

Quote - I Think any Lingering wishful notions about the genesis figure magically working in any upcoming Poser 9 etc have
been Definatively laid to rest by the shrugging response you were given by the SM tech guy.

No genesis in poser ..case closed

I wouldn't take a response from some tech guy that EClark 1894 was in touch with as gospel. He said to ask forum members how to simulate it in Poser? :laugh: If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.

Coldrake

@ redphantom

When a figure is "good"?

Support starts automatically.

When another figure is better?
There will never be support for your own figure.

I would like to see SM take the right direction this time, and pruduce an autstanding figure.
But this "next generation" Poser figures will have to be really special to get their figure reputation back on track.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.

Coldrake

LOL !!! Holding on to that Dream of genesis in poser.

To each their own

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

As said above; there is little to no support for Genesis.

I think that explains a lot without using many words.

And another naked chick without a closet?
What is the added value?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - EClark 1894 wrote;

Quote - BTW, I got a response from a tech at SM who said that they were unfamiliar with DAZ's weightmapping technology and that I should ask you guys and gals how to simulate it in Poser.

I wouldn't take a response from some tech guy that EClark 1894 was in touch with as gospel. He said to ask forum members how to simulate it in Poser? :laugh: If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.

Coldrake

Well, to be honest, I didn't really expect to get much of an answer, and the Tech did say they just weren't familiar with DAZ's Technology, not with weightmapping in general.

Frankly, I don't take that to mean anything more than what they said. So for all I know, Genesis still has a shot to be in the next version.

Quote - > Quote - If he doesn't even know what weight mapping is he couldn't be much of a tech guy. Or he was avoiding the question, since no one at SM wold be allowed to answer EClark 1894's question anyway. That sounds like a much more likely to me.

Coldrake

Wolf359 wrote;

LOL !!! Holding on to that Dream of genesis in poser.

To each their own

Cheers

I have no Dream of genesis in poser. For myself, I don't care whether Genesis is usable in Poser or not, as I don't even use Poser anymore except for the cloth room once in a while. Though I hope it will work for those Poser users who would like to use the figure.

I'm just not going to take the word of some tech guy under NDA who isn't allowed to answer questions about Genesis in Poser in the first place. If you want to believe him, that's fine. Like you say, to each their own.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

EClark 1894 wrote;

Quote - Well, to be honest, I didn't really expect to get much of an answer, and the Tech did say they just weren't familiar with DAZ's Technology, not with weightmapping in general. Frankly, I don't take that to mean anything more than what they said. So for all I know, Genesis still has a shot to be in the next version.

Exactly.

Coldrake

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

Hey, quit pickin' on Laurie!!! She's cute, talented and sweet. And it's no you ain't, not "no you aren't." What are ya, some kind of Yankee grammar school marm? Why I oughtta....

I still recommend breath mints! Nobody wants to smell fishy breath!

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm waiting with baited breath....lolol.

Laurie

Unless your breath smells like fish, no, no you aren't.

It's bated breath, dammit.

Hey, quit pickin' on Laurie!!! She's cute, talented and sweet. And it's no you ain't, not "no you aren't." What are ya, some kind of Yankee grammar school marm?

Worse...I'm Canadian.

As for the original question of this thread: Yes I think SMS would profit from a litttle more openness about the way they are heading and feedback to those who contributed.

It is tale telling they do not have an own forum where users can drop their ideas and opinions. This is Renderosity. Are they reading?

I like the approach of for example MarvelousDesigner. They have a 'feature request' forum where threads are decorated with posts from developers saying 'ETA of this feature is October 2011', or 'implemented in version 2.9.3'. A response 'this is not going to happen' I have not seen, but that could be a cultural thing.

I think to remember SM once had a forum.

BUT?

Where do you want the company's energy to go to??
Managing and maintaining a forum?? Manhrs, + extra hard@software maintenance?

Ever hr spend in a forum is a developpers lost hr.

I prefer them to not have a forum, but continue to develop a better PoserXYZ for everybody.

And YES, they come and read, and comment here.

And YES, you are allways free to contact them.

And YES it is somtimes frustrating to wait.

But ?
Better NO answer, then a false promice.

Better NO release date, as one they can not meet.

Better NO release than a too hasty one.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - As for the original question of this thread: Yes I think SMS would profit from a litttle more openness about the way they are heading and feedback to those who contributed.

It is tale telling they do not have an own forum where users can drop their ideas and opinions. This is Renderosity. Are they reading?

Are they reading? Yes, I believe so now. You'll note that the very first response to my original post was Steve Cooper from Poser. and on occasion I do know that John, aka "Ratscloset", and even CPStarlett (although I haven't seen a post from her in a while) do occasionally stop by. I recognize that everyone is busy, and perhaps I let all the hype about Genesis and DS4 get to me a bit. I've been a loyal Poser user since version 2, and since then the only versions I missed were 3 and 5.

I'm not anti-Daz, without them I would not have found out about 3D art work and without their free program allowing me to find out what could be done with such a Program I would never have stumped up the cash to buy Poser.

That said I am now a Poser user but still careful with my cash. Despite this I still happily paid for each upgrade and with the last one, Poser Pro 2010, I not only upgraded but built a system around it. I moved to 64bit processing only because Poser was now able to make use of it.

Could Poser be better, of course, but then I could have a much better computer if I had thrown more money at it. I think Poser is great value for money and I have little doubt I will upgrade to the next version of Poser Pro, assuming there is one, Genesis support or not.

Until then the present incarnation gives me all the pleasure and challenges I need leaving me safe in the knowledge that SM will tell me when the next upgrade is available.

Quote - > Quote - This is Renderosity. Are they reading?

Are they reading? Yes, I believe so now. You'll note that the very first response to my original post was Steve Cooper from Poser. and on occasion I do know that John, aka "Ratscloset", and even CPStarlett (although I haven't seen a post from her in a while) do occasionally stop by. I recognize that everyone is busy, and perhaps I let all the hype about Genesis and DS4 get to me a bit. I've been a loyal Poser user since version 2, and since then the only versions I missed were 3 and 5.

I'd like to add stewer to that list above. Our lead render engine developer is here frequently and chimes in whenever he can; and Bagginsbill who has been working on our library also provides lots of input here, and as well passes it along to us if we've missed it.

I'd not have known you couldn't rig in DS4 if I wasn't going thru the threads, which I rarely have time to do... I really need to catch up on the news around here =/

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..

Quote - I'd not have known you couldn't rig in DS4 if I wasn't going thru the threads, which I rarely have time to do... I really need to catch up on the news around here =/

You can't rig in any DS version UNLESS you buy the rigging tools. For DS4 that means the CCT (Content Creation Tools). Which are a more advanced and only version of rigging tools that they will have. No basic and pro versions as the last time.

But clothing creation will be easier with the genesis figure. The rigging is easer and it will fit any/most shapes without having to do all that extra work as in Poser rigged figures. Lets not forget the options with a plugin to use your other figures clothes with genesis.

As a long time Poser user. Every version since 4. I would love to see Genesis used in Poser. But I'm not going to cry about it if it does not happen. I can just port it over to Poser. No different than what many of us do to get figures to other software. Even a 3rd party bridge might be a good solution.

I do see the advantages of Genesis over other figures. I don't believe that SM can make a really good figure. There has not been a better native figure in Poser since as long as I have been around. Even the one they have redone 3 or 4 times is till a poor excuse of a figure.

So we have been given SM's version of a DAZ soon on info about the next version. Fine. But I'm using Genesis now. The longer I have to wait for any info on Poser. The more money DAZ will be getting out of me for Genesis. Mind you. That's not much right now. Even less on Poser rigged figures. And that has no baring on me buying the next version of Poser. I will because I'm a Poser user.

"I have seen nothing yet that would make Genesis a 'must have' and I have seen the video, looked at the morphs and the new Character at Daz. When I see renders that show aspects not possible with the present V4 I will be interested. "

actually I have seen a few things at daz that are not for poser as yet, that look really good (I'm trying not to look too closely because it makes me sad)

And I think this is just the beginning. so I will be with eclark hoping that it all comes together in the next iteration of poser.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

My issue is if the next verson of Poser supports Genesis...I already have a snake, trees and some apples....I already know BB has a really great water shader....think flood...but does BB have a good wood shader...think arc.

hornet3d great points in your post.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - "I have seen nothing yet that would make Genesis a 'must have' and I have seen the video, looked at the morphs and the new Character at Daz. When I see renders that show aspects not possible with the present V4 I will be interested. "

actually I have seen a few things at daz that are not for poser as yet, that look really good (I'm trying not to look too closely because it makes me sad)

And I think this is just the beginning. so I will be with eclark hoping that it all comes together in the next iteration of poser.

Love esther

Sorry, esther. I'm not really sold on Genesis. I MAY use it if Poser allows, but I can live with or without it. I do agree though with Tashar though. I would like to see some more effort put into the Poser figures. If not, then yeah, I do kind of feel that they should support Genesis.

that new hair looks great and is DS only. (I call that genesis too when it i sfor a genesis figure and is DS only)

It's one of the best hairs I have ever seen.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

I still have PLENTY of catching up to do, just learned that "genesis" is a character, from all Ive read so far, I totally didnt know that...

But, after poking around in the forums there, doesnt look to good for Genesis or DS4 =/

Least I dont feel bad for NOT liking the SM line of figures though, I thought I was the only one =P

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..

Actually Genesis isn't a character, but the name of the mesh the characters will be created from. while I do see some interesting promise in the Genesis mesh, I'm still highly dubious of V5 and M5 themselves. So far the males being morphed still seem to retain some female characteristics, as far as I can see. A lot like the V3 male and the V4 Male.

Quote - that new hair looks great and is DS only. (I call that genesis too when it i sfor a genesis figure and is DS only)

It's one of the best hairs I have ever seen.

Love esther

I don't know what hair that is your talking about but if that is true then they just cut the possible sales to half of what it could have been. Not seeing any reasoning in that. The problem these days is so many have to have the fit for thier figure already done for them. It is beyond them to try to trans and scale it themselves. DAZ caters to the click and render crowd.

Genesis is a Figure not a character. An all in one mesh. You should see what some like josephquick are doing with it in ZBrush. I think that is what he is using. This single mesh is so easy to work with in what ever your favorite modeling software is. No more multi groups to lay your morphs across.

edit to say that I checked to see what hair that was. Now I understand. I didn't buy the bundle and I sure as hell will not buy a hair that you need to jump through hoops to use elsewhere.

You do know that the Genesis mesh actually has more groups than the Gen 4 mesh right?

well I think it all looks very nice, although whenever I see it I quickly close the window as I odn't want to look at stuff I can't use. Well whether or not it was a very bad business decision for them, time will tell.

Love esther

PS I have seen the zbrush stuff and it looks awesome but until it is in poser with lots of vendor support and priced for us poser type peeps, it won't be useful to us.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

Exactly where is this ZBrush stuff you speak of?!? I'm curious...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..

Google ZBrush, a 3D software.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Um... I meant the ZBrush work being done w/ the Genesis figure =/

Also, I noticed a "separation" between figure and character. Explain that to me too...

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..

Just so y'all don't think I'm yanking your chain here's a screen shot, partial list of vertex groups are shown on the right side of the image.

You'll also note that Genesis uses the older style of grouping for the torso.

See those actor headings when your in the DS4 parameters tab...yep, require vertex groups just like the previous figures.

Ewwwwww.... Hes using Blender =P

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..

Well I was looking online for a new appliance to make coconut daquiris when I ran across this neat looking free program and thought to myself, "How hard could this be?" :tt2:

I mustve tried it so many times, and then totally avoided it altogether. When I started playing around w/ Second Life, I was somewhat forced into it.

I wont lie, it is an extremely powerful and robust program, I am amazed at some of the things done w/ it, but I just can't get around working w/ it's navigation and interface. Of all the programs I have ever used, it's by far the most difficult to manuever through. The "only" thing I can do w/ it now is import a mesh to autorig for use in Second Life, and even that, requires my "full" attention. I have to wear surgical gloves when I use it...

I'll admit, as a Carrara user, I get envious hearing and seeing how many people have good times w/ it =P It is very popular and has an outstanding community. And it's free =/

There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't..

Quote - Just so y'all don't think I'm yanking your chain here's a screen shot, partial list of vertex groups are shown on the right side of the image.

You'll also note that Genesis uses the older style of grouping for the torso.

See those actor headings when your in the DS4 parameters tab...yep, require vertex groups just like the previous figures.

And has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The mesh is NOT cut up into groups as previous poser rigged figures. You are selecting bone groups but again that has nothing to do with how the mesh is made. It is wieght map rigging. Completely different.

And to prove that I know what I talking about. Add a deformer or export the mesh or better yet. Export the mesh selecting the poser export option in DS4 and load it into Poser and add a magnet.

You will find that there is only one Group and that is the mesh itself. You don't select the head and add a deformer9DS) or a magnet(Poser) because it won't do it. You need to select the genesis mesh to be able to add the deformer or magnet. You do not have to cross groups with the deformer and yopu do not have to export each group or use a script to export the groups out to load back in for morphs as in multi grouped figure that they all are until Genesis.

This is another reason why clothing creation will be less work for everybody.

So Your not yanking my chain. Your doing that to yourself quite well without knowing how the figure really works.

Matcreater look in the Genesis render thread. I think there was one there. Everything is a bit scattered in different threads.

As a Diehard Poser user. I can't be the only one that can find the advantages of Genesis figures.

I've only used the Genesis figure a few times, but that's only because I haven't had time for 3D lately. Suffice to say that if it works in a future Poser version, that will be A Good Thing. Very very few Poser figures (and none of the mainstream commercial ones) can bend etc as well as Genesis, and the other benefits such as scaling and use of clothing are significant. Anyone who can't see the benefits probably has an anti-DAZ bias, I suspect. Genesis is a very large step forward.

As for content support... well, the figure just came out very recently; they only released morph packs in the last few days. I would assume the support will be just fine.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

You are very believable.

It will be good if it does work well in poser.

You know, to be honest I have been very happy with M4 but not as happy with V4 because of her magnets and lack of lip polygons, so since V4 came out I was hanging out for V5 - and now - alas...

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

Quote - > Quote - Just so y'all don't think I'm yanking your chain here's a screen shot, partial list of vertex groups are shown on the right side of the image.

You'll also note that Genesis uses the older style of grouping for the torso.

See those actor headings when your in the DS4 parameters tab...yep, require vertex groups just like the previous figures.

And has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The mesh is NOT cut up into groups as previous poser rigged figures. You are selecting bone groups but again that has nothing to do with how the mesh is made. It is wieght map rigging. Completely different.

And to prove that I know what I talking about. Add a deformer or export the mesh or better yet. Export the mesh selecting the poser export option in DS4 and load it into Poser and add a magnet.

You will find that there is only one Group and that is the mesh itself. You don't select the head and add a deformer9DS) or a magnet(Poser) because it won't do it. You need to select the genesis mesh to be able to add the deformer or magnet. You do not have to cross groups with the deformer and yopu do not have to export each group or use a script to export the groups out to load back in for morphs as in multi grouped figure that they all are until Genesis.

This is another reason why clothing creation will be less work for everybody.

So Your not yanking my chain. Your doing that to yourself quite well without knowing how the figure really works.

Matcreater look in the Genesis render thread. I think there was one there. Everything is a bit scattered in different threads.

As a Diehard Poser user. I can't be the only one that can find the advantages of Genesis figures.

Hmm. Interestingly enough if you import the blMilWom_4b.obj from the geometries folder directly into Poser you get precisely the same results as with the exported Genesis mesh object in regard to the morphing tool.

Furthermore if you select the imported Genesis mesh then click the group tool you see that the groups are in fact present.

The difference is not in the mesh body itself.

Where the new figure departs from the previous generation of figures is the inclusion of weight mapping which could just as easily have been implemented in the existing figures.

Weight mapping is not new and DAZ is using an interesting variation of it but if someone wanted to generate a .dsf version of V4 the results would be the same as for the new wonder figure.

The reason for the hype about the new figure is to recoup development costs of adding weight mapping support to DS4. Think about it, had they simply created a .dsf format version of V4 no one would buy into it. Since business can't remain static you get the "new figure" spin.

"But it's, 'A base figure that morphs into whatever you want.'" MakeHuman has been doing that for years.

"But weight mapping influences is new." Google it.

How about actually digging into the mechanics of the thing and seeing for yourself, it's what I do.

At no point did I say that the inclusion of weight mapping in DS is a bad idea but there are a lot of premises based on lack of information being thrown about in regards to the new to DS system of influence control of mesh surfaces.

Mesh creation will remain the same in making new mesh items for the Genesis figure.

What will be different is the addition of weight mapping which requires the, not yet available to the public, CCT.

The CCT may or may not include automation of group creation but that step is still going to be in there somewhere.

What DAZ has done is to make a proprietary file format that requires their tool for rigging, just smart business.

Yeah, but this kind of "smart business", can get you "out of business".

Never forget that 90 % are hobby guys and girls.
Spending "hobby" money.

They wanna play, have fun, be creative.
With an "easy" acces and user friendly program.

Not a bunch of "to pay for" add ons, where you never see an end of the road.

IF you restrict your own market, right brom the beginning, sorry, I can not call that "smart"'.
That is very limited short term thinking.

Remember; Genesis is a hype right now, mothing more, nothing less.

The hype does more then the figure does.

No support? No free items? All extra's to pay for???

She "ll have a very short life.

Also, even with the weight mapping, sorry, I see nothing NEW.......

Last but not least:

Most DAZ customers are way over their ears in V'4 investments.
They are way past the point of no return.

Any "NEW" figure WILL have to be a special one to turn that around..
And I'v not seen this in Genesis.

No figure reproduces some of the most basic human body movements.

No figure has "real" body references. Or show me one with her breasts on her collars!

Yeah, yeah, poly count has gone through the roof, but breasts are still helium filled balloons. And you can subdevide them ten times more, the weight of the extra poly's will not lower them. Almost all are modeled in the "T" pose.
Do I walk around in a "T" Pose?

When arms are lowered, skin relaxes and breasts lower an inch or 2.
What figure does that??
NONE.
Just an example.

But we all get 5.000 poly ears
2000 poly navels
10.000 poly inner mouths

Everybody forgets "basic" human body shapes and or body-skin interactions.

And Genesis, is no exeption.

Now if someone would start, by building a Low to Medium Poly model, that does act and move like a normal human person would.
Now, THAT would be a revolution.

Poser and DAZ both do internal subdevision.

Anyway, a mesh, is just the wireframe to hang the texture on.

Good shape, and good rigging are far more important than poly count.
But in the end?
It is the texture, bump, displacement, that "makes" the figure.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Furthermore if you examine the file list of morphs available you'll see Clone, CTRL, FBM, FHM, MCM, PBM, PHM, SCL, and VSM prefixes.

Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

What some folks are getting stuck on is that without the CCT all you can make areFBMs so are presuming from single indication that there are no groups in Genesis.

The mesh is cut up into groups just like all Poser/DS meshes previous to it.

If it wasn't, integrating the Bullet Physics library to provide a dynamic cloth plug-in would be a trivial matter to a skilled programmer.

Now let's take the oft repeated statement that content creation will now be simpler.

Where's the content?

Using the store search at DAZ, to date there are 3 outfits in the marketplace for the Genesis figure. Adding the included clothing in DS4 the total becomes 6 outfits.

Do you propose to suggest that skilled content creators using a simpler system have been unable to produce more than three marketable outfits in the time the CCT has been available to them?

Seems odd to me. Coupled with the comments in the DAZ forums indicating that there is a "learning curve" to the CCT it appears that content creation might not be as simple as the marketing speak would have everyone believe.

Personally though I think that the .dsf format is an improvement over the .cr2 format since the techs at DAZ appear to have solved the scaling issues when morphing. I'm just not biting the hook that marketing has thrown out on the rest of it. I mean my last name may be Jones but my first isn't Jim and I ain't drinking the Kool-aid.

Quote - Yeah, but this kind of "smart business", can get you "out of business".

Never forget that 90 % are hobby guys and girls.
Spending "hobby" money.

They wanna play, have fun, be creative.
With an "easy" acces and user friendly program.

Not a bunch of "to pay for" add ons, where you never see an end of the road.

IF you restrict your own market, right brom the beginning, sorry, I can not call that "smart"'.
That is very limited short term thinking.

Remember; Genesis is a hype right now, mothing more, nothing less.

The hype does more then the figure does.

No support? No free items? All extra's to pay for???

She "ll have a very short life.

Also, even with the weight mapping, sorry, I see nothing NEW.......

Last but not least:

Most DAZ customers are way over their ears in V'4 investments.
They are way past the point of no return.

Any "NEW" figure WILL have to be a special one to turn that around..
And I'v not seen this in Genesis.

No figure reproduces some of the most basic human body movements.

No figure has "real" body references. Or show me one with her breasts on her collars!

Yeah, yeah, poly count has gone through the roof, but breasts are still helium filled balloons. And you can subdevide them ten times more, the weight of the extra poly's will not lower them. Almost all are modeled in the "T" pose.
Do I walk around in a "T" Pose?

When arms are lowered, skin relaxes and breasts lower an inch or 2.
What figure does that??
NONE.
Just an example.

But we all get 5.000 poly ears
2000 poly navels
10.000 poly inner mouths

Everybody forgets "basic" human body shapes and or body-skin interactions.

And Genesis, is no exeption.

Now if someone would start, by building a Low to Medium Poly model, that does act and move like a normal human person would.
Now, THAT would be a revolution.

Poser and DAZ both do internal subdevision.

Anyway, a mesh, is just the wireframe to hang the texture on.

Good shape, and good rigging are far more important than poly count.
But in the end?
It is the texture, bump, displacement, that "makes" the figure.

Won't have much negative impact on their current business.

Here's why:

The previous generations of figures still work in DS4.
As noted the figure really is not significantly different from the previous models. Weight mapping for deformations and resolution of the scaling problem are pretty much it.
Because of the similarity to the previous figures they have been able to implement the Autofit Plug-in allowing use of a significant portion of previous content.
The weight mapping is copied over to the content. With the auto fit parameter set to true this causes the outfit to "fit to" any morph.
The Genesis mesh is a much lower poly mesh that utilizes subdivision for increased resolution. In effect similar to creating a multires figure in a program such as Blender.
I'm with you on the mesh deformation. They fixed the front of the armpits but wrecked the back. But there is only so much that can be done within the chosen rigging framework, compromises have to be made.
Since the UV mapping is the same as for the Gen 4 series the texturing issue is moot to the discussion of the technological aspects. I'm not disagreeing so much considering it to be a separate matter.
Customers tend to jump on the "OOH Shiny!!!" new products. Not everybody takes things apart to see how they actually work. (Yeah that's caused me a few advetures in life.:blushing:)

I seriously doubt there will be much difficulty in including Genesis support in Poser because of the similarity in the files.

The less than well designed and implemented UI of DS4 is a problem, failure to insure updated plug-ins is another.

What if Kirk had given Genesis to Kahn? :tt2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3w2saj52fI

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Quote - Furthermore if you examine the file list of morphs available you'll see Clone, CTRL, FBM, FHM, MCM, PBM, PHM, SCL, and VSM prefixes. Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

A morph has always been able to affect as few or as many vertices as desired.
All that's happened is that now making FBMs is easier because the mesh is handled internally without splitting it into body parts.

Quote - Personally though I think that the .dsf format is an improvement over the .cr2 format since the techs at DAZ appear to have solved the scaling issues when morphing.

Which has nothing to do with the format itself.

Quote - Furthermore if you examine the file list of morphs available you'll see Clone, CTRL, FBM, FHM, MCM, PBM, PHM, SCL, and VSM prefixes. Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

What some folks are getting stuck on is that without the CCT all you can make areFBMs so are presuming from single indication that there are no groups in Genesis.

The mesh is cut up into groups just like all Poser/DS meshes previous to it.

If it wasn't, integrating the Bullet Physics library to provide a dynamic cloth plug-in would be a trivial matter to a skilled programmer.

I don't get the point in your rambling about the groups. You can put as many groups into any mesh as you like, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what you can or cannot do with the mesh.

And how is Bullet Physics relevant here? As far as I know, it wasn't even designed to be used for simulating clothing, at least not the way it's done in these programs (Poser, DS).

Quote - The reason for the hype about the new figure is to recoup development costs of adding weight mapping support to DS4. Think about it, had they simply created a .dsf format version of V4 no one would buy into it. Since business can't remain static you get the "new figure" spin.

File format has nothing to do with it.

Quote - Hmm. Interestingly enough if you import the blMilWom_4b.obj from the geometries folder directly into Poser you get precisely the same results as with the exported Genesis mesh object in regard to the morphing tool.

Furthermore if you select the imported Genesis mesh then click the group tool you see that the groups are in fact present.

I'll make it simpler for you to understand what I was talking about. Open DS4. Then load up V4 along side Genesis figure. Select the head of both figures and add a deformer to both of them. See what happens. The deformer will work on V4 head but does not on Genesis. You need to select the Genesis figure to add a deformer and then trans it to where you want the morph to be.

In V4 if you want the morph to work on the hip/abbs chest and r/l collar. You have to add those groups to the deformer. Then export each group and load each group. Scripts make the process a little easier but still lots of work. Or do the UVMapper trick to get a groupless mesh to work on in other software and then move it back to UVMapper to get the groups back and then go through the export/import/inject process.

You don't need to go through all that with Genesis.

Quote - Guess what that means? That there is the capability to create actor specific morphs using the CCT.

What some folks are getting stuck on is that without the CCT all you can make areFBMs so are presuming from single indication that there are no groups in Genesis.

. Nobody is stuck on that except you thinking everyone is. The CCT is not out for public use yet. DAZ has even stated in thier commons forum that they were working on being able to do that with the CCT. Not much need to delve deep into the workings to know that. BTW. They have had videos out for some time now on the, how to, about rigging things besides the whole process from start to finish. Again you can only go halfway with it until the CCT is out because that is what you need.

Quote - Now let's take the oft repeated statement that content creation will now be simpler.

Where's the content?

Yada yada the rest of the quote. Simple answer is they rushed DS4 and Genesis out the door before they had the content ready.

The longer version would be it takes a bit of time for the PA's to learn a new work flow and tools. Which you are confusing, "learning a new work flow," with, "not as much work so should have it out sooner."

Once they, the PA's and the rest of us learn the new work flow. It will be easier to create more stuff with less work and time involved. And if you watch this sale they are having right now. You will see some new stuff and more of it. It is now starting to show up.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: The Poser questions that Can't be Answered...