Has anyone figured out how to share weight maps for updated Poser figures yet? I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out for the older figures!

Yes you can share them with a pz2 joint insertion pose. Cage I am sure will work one out for us.  nerd3D at RDNA has worked out the particulars but has not shared it publicly yet.

But the method is old school knowledge. Cage has an example on his free site for a joint insertion pose. It is the same method. 

Here is an example posted in the finally thread last year  There should be a script shortly to make the process of making the pose files painless.

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A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - nerd3D at RDNA has worked out the particulars but has not shared it publicly yet.

Nerd posted a tutorial of it on his website a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks for the information. This is very exciting. I expect we will see some fantastic things very shortly.

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - > Quote - nerd3D at RDNA has worked out the particulars but has not shared it publicly yet.

Nerd posted a tutorial of it on his website a couple of weeks ago.

 

Very good. Didnt know it was public knowledge yet. This tutorial will walk you through the steps for what you want to do. It is much easier than it looks. And as nerd3D suggests, use Poser file editor by Dimension3D it makes the process soo much quicker and easier to understand than trying to cut and paste from a cr2.

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A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

As soon as my copy arrives, I hope to start on a script to help create weight insertion poses.  Drat the slow boat shipping.  :lol:  Shouldn't have been such a cheapskate on the shipping front, I guess.  Not sure I can guarantee a script which will make the anti-spaghetti-type folks happy  (:lol:), but it should be able to accomplish what it sets out to do.

Ooh.  Nerd has done all the ground work.  Excellent.  Is a script actually needed?

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Yes we need a script please.  Although the tutorial is good and all, still the process is time consuming and tedious, so a script would be excellent. Please, pretty please. I will beg you till you relent.

 I am a shameless mooch and will take full advantage of your talent if you let me :lol:

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A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

There are some details that already need to be updated on that tutorial. One problem is that a Pose can't create channels and if your weight maps have affected extra actors you will be adding channels....

Don't worry there's a way to do that too. Netherworks suggested that a read script might create those channels on the fly if executed from a cr2. It works for morphs why not joints... Yeup It does.

Yeah, I've successfully used a cr2 to load another cr2 followed by the joint pose changes.  It would probably work with any "active method" that normally brings something into the scene (cr2, pp2).

Let's say someone tweaked out some of the parts of Antonia with weight mapping (shoulder bends, elbow bends, whatever).

The "loader" cr2 might be called "Antonia Weight Loader.cr2" and contain something like this:

{
version
    {
    number 9
    }
readScript ":Runtime:libraries:character:Antonia:Antonia-1.2.cr2"
readScript ":Runtime:Geometries:Antonia:Injection:Antonia_NWS_WeightMaps.pz2"
}

When you load the Antonia Weight Loader.cr2, it would load Antonia-1.2 and while it's loading... alter the current joint structure to match what is in Antonia_NWS_WeightMaps.pz2.

You can put anything you want in the Pose: The joints, plus dependencies, plus animated centers information, etc...

If you don't actively do it like this and just try to use a joint pose, it's only going to change what exists on the figure, not add anything.

I haven't seen any weird behavior yet.  If the joints' rigging exists, it changes them.  If information is missing it adds it.

I have a rudimentary script that generates a joint pose with only the basic joint information (including weight maps).  It needs polish for sure.  I was running into a wall if folks wanted to include dependencies (ERC).  It could try to figure out which parameter dials are part of an ERC declaration but it would need to run through a cr2 twice.  Once to build the dependencies as keywords to include, a second time to produce a joint pose file.

Now, if it being selective isn't a concern and folks were willing to work from a basic stripped figure (non-joint based morphs and extranous dials removed) then it would only need to make one run.

You'd just need to tell the script when to turn on and when to turn off when writing via reading the cr2 and writing the pz2.

.

Any news? ^^

I'm just beginning to make sense of some of this.  Thank you, nerd and Netherworks, for all of this information.  I had no idea that readScript could be used to modify a figure while it was loading!  Wow!  Who figured that out?  Excellent.  This readScript technique itself seems like it might have plenty of potential.

I still don't have my upgrade and may not for some days, so I can't do much more than take notes at this point.  :sad:

Netherworks, are you planning to release your script?  I don't want to step on any toes or create confusion by having multiple scripts floating around if you'll already be providing a solution.  (Not to mention that any script I might create could only be inferior to your work....  :lol:)

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

is the pz2 file useful because it's accessed from a cr2 file?   i'm assuming that's the case rather than it being because it's accessed using a readScript, but i figure it's good to check. 

Quote - is the pz2 file useful because it's accessed from a cr2 file?   i'm assuming that's the case rather than it being because it's accessed using a readScript, but i figure it's good to check.

That would seem to make sense.  Interesting.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

It has to be in a CR2. In Posers mind Character files create new stuff in a scene. Poses (PZ2) only change existing things. The file parser operates in a different mode.

Attached Link: http://rbtwhiz.com/rbtwhiz_rScript.html

> Quote - Who figured that out?

The basics was rbtwhiz (see attached link, which was used for DAZ's delta INJection). This thread -> http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=1474180 suggests that sixus1 might have originated the adding channel method.

Quote - I'm just beginning to make sense of some of this.  Thank you, nerd and Netherworks, for all of this information.  I had no idea that readScript could be used to modify a figure while it was loading!  Wow!  Who figured that out?  Excellent.  This readScript technique itself seems like it might have plenty of potential.

I still don't have my upgrade and may not for some days, so I can't do much more than take notes at this point.  :sad:

Netherworks, are you planning to release your script?  I don't want to step on any toes or create confusion by having multiple scripts floating around if you'll already be providing a solution.  (Not to mention that any script I might create could only be inferior to your work....  :lol:)

Cage, I wasn't planning on selling it (not that you said that, per se) :).  I had the idea to develop it for the community and give it to everyone as a feather in the cap for Poser.  My problem right now is that I have a very full plate.  Well, that and I get "script burnout" sometimes.  I have had to go through dozens of scripts (some products have multiple components) and get them prepared for Poser 9 and I've been doing this for weeks now... So I get a bit like... yeesh...  Need break!

I am willing to share work with you or work on some ideas on how to approach it together, if you'd like.  Or you might simply look at what I've done and come up with a better direction.  I'm also open to getting as many people on it, who want to play around with it.

Since there are not of lot of Poser Python Methods to work with here, I've been doing a  parsing through a cr2 approach.  It works but it can snag...  That's the only thing I don't like about it.

.

Quote - is the pz2 file useful because it's accessed from a cr2 file?   i'm assuming that's the case rather than it being because it's accessed using a readScript, but i figure it's good to check. 

The pz2 is just a carrier and something Poser recognizes as being valid.

I have the idea that there are 2 kinds of library files in Poser: Active and Passive.  Active files bring something into the scene by creating something new.  Passive files just change existing values.  Poses, Cameras, Material Collections, etc are passive - they just change something that already exists.  Figures, Hair, Props are active and bring objects into the scene.

I think this is why it works... marrying the cr2 with a pz2 gives something for Poser to actively load while saying the pz2 portion is part of that cr2 being loaded.

I've been doing this for a while to load new morphs into figures without using "blank slots".  My Samedi and Koneko figures use this in regards to add-ons.  You just load the "loader cr2" and it brings the figure in with the new morphs and you can save the figure back into the Poser library, ready to take more "add-ons" as necessary.

.

cage - have u got your poser yet?

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Quote - cage - have u got your poser yet?

Sadly, no.  And if it doesn't arrive some time today, I won't have much time to work on a script for the next week or so.  But fear not!  :lol:  I'll get something together as soon as I can.

The lesson to learn here may be never to select the "Ground" shipping option when speedier methods are available for a few only a dollars more.    As a skinflint, I find that difficult, I fear.  :lol:

Edit:  No, I will have Friday.  I can work on it on Friday, and some evenings.  So it won't be a full week before I can get to it, just that long before I can spend as much time on it as I usually do with a script.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

My "Ground" shippment copy came today. 

Scott

Well, there's hope, then!  I'll check and see if the tracking feature offers any insight today.  Part of the trouble with Ground is that you can get a great deal of variance depending on where you are relative to their sorting hubs and whatnot.  I'm in a rural area, but one not too far removed from civilization, so... just maybe.  :woot:

 

Also: Cage is jealous.  :lol:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Any news Cage?

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Yes.  I should have Poser tomorrow before the end of the business day.  So I can give the script some good time on Friday.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

whoohooooo!  Have tons of fun with it!  I really hope it does arrive tomorrow for you.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

The basics of a script are together.  It can create the weight injection poses from the donor .cr2.  I ended up having to save and reload the file before the inserted joints showed up properly, but that may be some kind of system error on my end, as I'm seeing similar joint oddities on P8 pz3 files I've tested.

The harder part of the process lies ahead, with support for the above-revealed process of adding new actor affector references, as well as animatable joint centers.  So it will take a couple of days of work before it's ready to be posted.  I should be able to give it that required attention again beginning on Monday.  So hopefully by Wednesday or Thursday I'll have something.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Okay.  I threw out what I had and rewrote the thing to make it a bit more flexible.  Hopefully it shouldn't be too hard to extend this new form to include animatable joint centers.

I do have a question for the users, however.  The script will require four file paths: the donor .cr2 from which the weights are derived, the location of the base figure .cr2 to be loaded by the readScript, the save location for the readScript "runner" .cr2, and the save location for the actual joint insertion pose.

That's a bunch of file paths for a script user to have to select.  :scared:  And once the insertion pose is saved, it can't be relocated without breaking the readScript process.

So I thought I'd ask: how do you feel about browsing for four paths as part of the process?  Too confusing, somehow?  The script could try to simplify the process by saving the readScript .cr2 and the insertion pose to the same folder as the target base figure .cr2.  Or something of that sort.  But that could lead to unwanted clutter in that folder, with the files unable to be moved without being broken.

So: what do you, the users, want?  Any thoughts? 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I don't mind browsing but if searching during the browse could be made as easy as possible, eg copy paste a file name or something.

Love esther

PS I also don't mind clutter.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

For my part I would prefer a CR2 with the weight map data saved within itself if that's possible.

Cage, you should know I've encountered some mystery snag injecting the data. Some figures it works, some it doesn't and I can't figure out why the ones that don't are being stubborn. One of them is Andy the P9 manequin. If I inject the joints by PZ2 it works fine. If I try a CR2 hot load it never reads the pose file. >.<

I've picked through the Pose and Hot Load files line by line and I can't figure out what's derailing the process. I even tried putting the joint data right in the Hot Load CR2 -- no luck.

I dont mind clutter either. :)

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A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - Cage, you should know I've encountered some mystery snag injecting the data. Some figures it works, some it doesn't and I can't figure out why the ones that don't are being stubborn. One of them is Andy the P9 manequin. If I inject the joints by PZ2 it works fine. If I try a CR2 hot load it never reads the pose file. >.<
I've picked through the Pose and Hot Load files line by line and I can't figure out what's derailing the process. I even tried putting the joint data right in the Hot Load CR2 -- no luck.

That's interesting... and bad news.  :scared:  No patterns have become apparent?

I've only tested loading the weights from a pose once, and in that case some of the joints didn't update until after the file was saved and reloaded.  But the process worked.

The work Diogenes has been doing on Antonia has made me wonder whether we need another approach.  He's adding new "helper bone" actors to the .cr2, as well as magnets to help correct some tricky areas.  I'm not sure whether Poser will be able to add the actors or magnets using the readScript approach revealed near the top of the thread.

The backup plan I've been considering is a script to actually merge the pose into the .cr2 on the file level, using Python instead of relying on Poser's native loading process.  We know we can distribute the weight data via a pose, so presumably that should work.  Not as convenient for users, perhaps, but it's beginning to sound like it could be a more reliable approach.  :unsure:

Unfortunately that means more work for the scriptwriter(s).  :lol:  When I rewrote the script yesterday, I was partially thinking about extensibility.  I think the current framework could be used as the basis for a merging script as well as the pose creation script.

Is there anything I can do to help with testing of this new problem?

 

 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote - For my part I would prefer a CR2 with the weight map data saved within itself if that's possible.

Does it have to be a .cr2?  The pose itself will be a stripped-down .cr2.  If you're planning to hand edit the files and merge the data that way, you can still use the pose for that purpose.  That's what I plan to do, anyway.  I just prefer digging around inside the Poser files.  Even if it leads to the occasional error.  :lol: 

If you want the actual original weight-mapped .cr2, it sounds like there are distribution problems with those, in the case of proprietary figures. 

 

I'm seeing two nods toward the "cluttered" approach, here.  :lol:  If I save the pose and "runner" .cr2 to the same folder as the target figure, then the user only has to browse for the weighted donor figure and the target figure.  I'll try that first, if there are no protests.  But... is two enough for a quorum in a thread like this?  :unsure:

  'According to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, Tenth Edition, the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order, the "requirement for a quorum is protection against totally unrepresentative action in the name of the body by an unduly small number of persons." '  :unsure:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I did not decide for the "cluttered" version (or an un-cluttered) because in fact I have far too less knowledge at all about weightmaps at the moment and still read and learn. So if there are people who like to try out what you created why not give them a chance?! There is still enough time later to create something more smooth from what you have now - if desired at all. I think that prompting for some file locations is not hard to do and I am more than used to it by programs that are available for money. Injection Magic is one of those candidates - it seems to be able to do an auto search but always gets a stack overflow as I have several harddrives and the program won't let you decide for one of them. So in the end you search things by hand and often you aren't even able to see what to look up as the search window is small (and not resizable) and parts of the file names are hidden.

 

Why this rant? Just to let you know what half-baked things are available for money - and your script is free, so asking for some manual input on it is definitly not too much!

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls

> Quote - Why this rant? Just to let you know what half-baked things are available for money - and your script is free, so asking for some manual input on it is definitly not too much!

Well... okay!  :laugh:  Adding the option to specify the pose save path and loader .cr2 save path isn't a problem at all.

Here's what seems to be a working basic version of the script.  This is creating the loader .cr2 and the pose.  Theoretically it should then be able to add new joint affector references, then.  It isn't handling animatable origins yet and I haven't tried to take any step toward supporting helper bones or joint-assisting magnets.  Just a basic script.

This one is set up for the "cluttered" approach, which will place the files as I noted in my last post.  I can go ahead and set up an option to specify all four paths.

Change the file extension from ".txt" to ".py" on the attached file.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Cool this will speed up my investigation as to why some figures are rejecting this. Hopefully it will turn out it just P9 Andy that's being stubborn. Hacking out weight map injectors by hand is a lot of no fun.

Thanks Cage :) I'm off to play with it. 

cheers,

Mike.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

I'm wondering about support for animatable origins, in the script.  If the script is intended for use in creating weight map injection poses, I can see the utility of including animatable origin support for the transform dials: translate, scale, and (primarily) rotate.  It seems to me that animatable origin support for valueParm or targetGeom is really a separate matter, deserving of a separate script.  In that case, the morph or set of FBM morphs is really the point, with the origin adjustments dependent on those deformations.  The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to me to try to put that into the main weight map script.  I think that's more of a morph packaging concern and, as I say, it would make sense to me to treat it separately.

That is, unless someone knows of a really good reason to combine the two?  :unsure:  I suppose the effectiveness of a morph set could be reliant on weight mapping and animated origins.  But... it still seems to me that such a case would be more about the morphs and less about the primary concern of making weight map distribution accessible to a wide user base.  Hurm.

Any thoughts? 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Separate scripts would make sense to me as well. Or at least separate selection in a combined script. But you should hear from nerd3D and netherworks on it. as I am not a scripting genious like yourself. :m_cigar:

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A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Here's a script update which allows optional browsing for all four paths.  It can be used for the "cluttered" style save pattern of the previous version, if the two save paths are omitted.

This is also set up to handle animatable origins which are linked to rotation, scale, or translation dials.  The OffsetA listings currently include some unnecessary lines, but that shouldn't affect the functionality of any created poses.  (Points lost for style, however.  Sorry.    I'm pulling it together, gradually.)

As before, save the attachment and change the file suffix to .py, to use the script.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Cage, i created a script to auto-readjust joint centers for a fbm, like morphing cloths but for joints. Can this be combined with your script? Mine is only positioning the joints, but creating an injection for the animation would make this much more useful

Quote - Cage, i created a script to auto-readjust joint centers for a fbm, like morphing cloths but for joints. Can this be combined with your script? Mine is only positioning the joints, but creating an injection for the animation would make this much more useful

I'm not sure.  What is your script doing?  This script is ripping a pose from a .cr2 file which already has the animated origins set up.  If your script is running within Poser, it might be more straightforward for it to add a feature to write a pose on the fly, as it were, then apply it.  If it's being run within Poser, I assume you'd know what dependencies you'd want to set up for the animated origin.  If you have all of that, creating a pose shouldn't be too hard.

But I'm making assumptions about what your script does. 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Ah, then I misunderstood, its late my apologies :) i want to write a file to inject morph and the animated jpints, which the script computes

Have you taken a look at the example files on Nerd's site?  The Alien Andy files show what is needed in a pose which injects the animated origins.

There still seem to be some complications with the process, however.  I don't think we've fully worked out what's happening, but there are errors and failures with the process in some cases.  I'm hoping those can be sorted out soon, because I'm not sure how to proceed with adding the next set of features to the script until I know what works and what doesn't.  :unsure:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

I have a fully weight mapped V4 if anyone is interested.

"I have a fully weight mapped V4 if anyone is interested."

Yes, and thank you!

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

can I see?

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Interested ? Yes !

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

 

sure

Of course. I only wish you could have sent me a site mail earlier would have saved me a lot of time and work.

Cheers,

Mike.

. 

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - I have a fully weight mapped V4 if anyone is interested.

 

By fully weighmapped, do you mean you've managed to improve her bends or did you use Poser Pro 2012's one click bone joint conversion process? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Yes, that was my question too SteveJax.

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

I am curious PhilC, have you heard about Phantom3D's project to convert V4 to WM as well.  Would love to see it though, but I think a lot of folks would like to see a "standard" WM V4 to make sure there is no confusion.

Quote - I have a fully weight mapped V4 if anyone is interested.

 

Oh yes.. tres interested!

Also, is this on offer as a freebie or for sale?  And is it a re-rig w/ weightmapping or a conversion of the existng rig?

It would be sure grand to settle on an unofficial "official WP v4" so we could see continued vendor support and vendor conversions of their existing products.

 

Quote - I am curious PhilC, have you heard about Phantom3D's project to convert V4 to WM as well.  Would love to see it though, but I think a lot of folks would like to see a "standard" WM V4 to make sure there is no confusion.

 

Poser Pro 2012 has the tools in its Joint Editor to be able to replace existing jointing with the equivalent weight mapping, however at three joint rotations per body part and 50+ parts that is a boat load of work.

Sounds like a job for Python but no method existed. So we asked for one, and SM came through. Still under test but I'm happy to say that it looks like it is working. Way to go SM :)

Yes if I'd known before I could have saved a number of folks a lot of work but I only got the beta update today and wrote the script this evening so I'm posting now. There is no point in me posting the script yet because it will not work in your version yet. I most certainly will when the Pro update is released. The script is only 20 lines of code and once the method is known its a no brainer to write so I'm not being particularly clever here :)

So for now I suggest that we concentrate on the best method of distributing weight map data without infringing on any CR2 file copyright.

Quote - So for now I suggest that we concentrate on the best method of distributing weight map data without infringing on any CR2 file copyright.

According to the linked thread, Daz accepts the method discussed in this thread.  But apparently any kind of auto-conversion of existing zone joints is not acceptable to Daz.

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?65006-Distibution-of-weight-mapping-legal-issues.-Confirmation-from-DAZ

I'm excited that SM has added this new Python feature you mention, but it sounds like it represents exactly the kind of auto-conversion that Daz finds unacceptable.  :unsure:  Would you legally be able to share this script-converted V4, even in the acceptable injection pose format? 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote - So for now I suggest that we concentrate on the best method of distributing weight map data without infringing on any CR2 file copyright.

So you're saying that Poser Pro 2012's 1 click conversion isn't as 1 click as we thought. Still doesn't answer the question I posed.

Quote - Would you legally be able to share this script-converted V4, even in the acceptable injection pose format? 

Just distributing the script would suffice I would assume.

Quote - > Quote - So for now I suggest that we concentrate on the best method of distributing weight map data without infringing on any CR2 file copyright.

So you're saying that Poser Pro 2012's 1 click conversion isn't as 1 click as we thought. Still doesn't answer the question I posed.

Quote - Would you legally be able to share this script-converted V4, even in the acceptable injection pose format? 

Just distributing the script would suffice I would assume.

 

Just distributing the script would work provided it will give the exact same result every time and therefore would be a reliable base for development of weightmapped content.  (I assume scripts being mathematical in nature 'should' yeild predictable results, but what user side variables might there be)

The only downside to this is it wont fix V4s underlying rigging issues and dependence on magnets to function correctly.. or am I wrong?  if so I am quite used to it... :(

 

Quote - Just distributing the script would suffice I would assume.

The script would definitely be a good thing.  :laugh:  And your unanswered question becomes especially important.  Is the Python method just reproducing the same joint results?  If so, that's certainly useful in itself.  But could one use those converted joints as the basis for improvements, then distribute the improved joints, if the Python method doesn't somehow automatically improve joint handling?

If the Python methods can't improve the joints, it sounds to me like the real benefits of weight mapping can only be realized on Daz figures by following the approach Diogenes has been using, and doing it the hard way, by hand, from scratch.  :sad:

Edit: Cross-posted with meatSim.  :laugh:

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

How could you prove that any particular weight map was produced by a scripted conversion? Its a no brainer to add code to apply a small random factor to each weight. Unless you knew what that factor was you could never prove where its source came from. Then if the user takes that as their starting point and made a few minor adjustments .......... "tweaking those weights" ...... would, in my opinion, have been achieved.

I do however accept that the weight map data must be injected into the figure.

I see the work flow as:-

1. Use script to convert existing joints to weight maps. This just speeds up the process already available to Pro users in the Joint Editor. (If you are on the beta team I've now posted that to the RDNA beta forum.)

2. Starting from that base fine tune and enhance the weight mapping as required.

3. Create some form of injectable weight map pose that may then be redistributed.

I guess I'm a little bit confused by the role this script plays, Phil. PP2012 already has the tools to do an autoconversion to weightmapping, assuming you're not looking to do anything more than an "equivalence." Is the point here that this will be more robust/accurate? or that it will be pretty much the same in effect, but maybe available for P9 users as well as Pro users? or just what?

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

There are many figures that would benefit from having weight-maps. The Poser content library is briming with them, and SM is not likely to complain if we get the best of them upgraded.

With a sript to help, the many content creators, who have figures already made, can convert them, and then refine their work to provide improved and completely Poserized figures.

Remember, DAZ is NOT the only content provider with figures.

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - I see the work flow as:-

1. Use script to convert existing joints to weight maps. This just speeds up the process already available to Pro users in the Joint Editor. (If you are on the beta team I've now posted that to the RDNA beta forum.)

2. Starting from that base fine tune and enhance the weight mapping as required.

3. Create some form of injectable weight map pose that may then be redistributed.

 

That sounds good to me, and I like any tool that could make all of this easier.  :woot:  I'm just saying that the process looks like exactly what Daz is forbidding in their statement released at RDNA.  Maybe they couldn't prove derivation, given a random factor or adequate manual tweaking.  Maybe their stated policy is a bit silly.  :lol:  But it just seems like the same thing. 

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote - I see the work flow as:-

1. Use script to convert existing joints to weight maps. This just speeds up the process already available to Pro users in the Joint Editor. (If you are on the beta team I've now posted that to the RDNA beta forum.)

2. Starting from that base fine tune and enhance the weight mapping as required.

3. Create some form of injectable weight map pose that may then be redistributed.

 

So just clarify what the script does in noob terms... 

It automates the process of going through each axis of each joint and pressing the  'merge to weight map' button, but does not modify the results from what one would get if they actually went manually through each joint and axis and pressed the button?

 

Yes, it just does the tedious donkey work.

Rigging is more art than science, it will always take a human touch to set any form of jointing values for a 3D figure model. Weight mapping is not magically better than any existing method. It does however offer other options previously not available.

There is also nothing that magical in the script either.

http://www.philc.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17943

You'll need the Pro version and the update when available so take it at face value and subject to change.

PhilC:

Thanks for informing us of this development, and demostrating a script. :)

lmk

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Goood !!! But there's no update ;)

 

Génération mobiles Le Forum / Le Site

 

So Phil, while we're talking about V4, in particular, this script will work for any Poser figure?

It will also work to weightmap clothing for that figure?

Yes any figure.

No not this script however, Poser Pro 2012 has a menu option to generate weight maps in clothing to match the figure. I'd need to check if that is in Poser 9 also. There is a Python method available should you want to script the process. The option is also built into Wardrobe Wizard.

copyToFigure.CopyJointParmsFrom(copyFromFigure)

That would be "Copy Joint Zones From..." under the Figure menu, right?

Right

Quote - I guess I'm a little bit confused by the role this script plays, Phil. PP2012 already has the tools to do an autoconversion to weightmapping, assuming you're not looking to do anything more than an "equivalence." Is the point here that this will be more robust/accurate? or that it will be pretty much the same in effect, but maybe available for P9 users as well as Pro users? or just what?

Really? Do tell!

Yes you can use the tools in the Joint Editor to create equivalent weight maps for each joint of each body part.

Scale + 3 orders of rotation multply by 50 body parts @ 3? mouse clicks per joint  ~= 600 clicks.

600 clicks @ one per second = ten minutes of tedium.

Or run the script.

Then use the result as your basis for revised/improved bending.

Phil, thats a great script. You have a knack for coming up with them.

But from my communications with Daz, nothing you make afterwards with it is distributable because it used the original joint zones.

I am no lawyer, so don't take what I am saying wrong.

I am just posting this here so people have been forewarned.

For personal use, they can not do a thing about it.

People that want to use it for that, will definently save more than a few mouse clicks.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

And if you didn't use the original zones?

From what I got from Daz. If you do a conversion using the original joints and zones, you are violating the legal agreement for the character.

If you use you own rigging and zones, you have not violated any intellectual property rights.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

The main problem is that even if you bought a Daz3D character, you do not own it.

Your purchase only gave you license for personal use.

If you use any part of it to create a product for distribution that could be considered to compete with it, you are in violation of the EULA for the character.

That would include free items as well.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

How can it compete with itself?

You would have to own V4 and load it into the scene before applying a weight mapped injection pose. Does that not enhance the perceived value of V4? I fail to see how it could detract.

Consider a remapped V4. One has to provide the new UV data in a form that can be "injected" into the original. One must similarly own the original version before one can use the revised version.

I've not heard any argument that this violates any EULA so why now with weight maps?

Yes I probably could answer my own question but that would mean going back to the beginning, the start of it all and I do not propose to make that exodus.

 

Quote - The main problem is that even if you bought a Daz3D character, you do not own it.

Your purchase only gave you license for personal use.

If you use any part of it to create a product for distribution that could be considered to compete with it, you are in violation of the EULA for the character.

That would include free items as well.

I'm a little confused. If this is the case, why isn't it a violation of the EULA to create clothes for a DAZ figure? Don't you have to use the original bone structure and rigging info to create a conforming outfit?

Yes but the clothing is said to enhance the V4 figure not detract or compete with it, and I would agree with this.

In my opinion weight mapping will enhance the V4 figure not detract or compete with it.

How that data is created is, in my opinion, immaterial ...... providing that the data is supplied in a form that can only be used by someone who has already legally obtained the V4 figure.

Phil, I didn't write their EULA, and I don't enforce it.

Section 4 of the agreement basically says you can not make anything 3D from it.

Daz told me that you can not use any part of the character, in part or in whole, to make another product.

From the answers I did get, they seem to be ready to enforce it as well.

EClark, thats a good point. I will ask them again, and add that into the mix.

I am just going by what I got back from them after it was discussed at Daz.

That does seem a little conflicting, doesn't it.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

Having a weight mapped cr2 in my opinion is no different than adding morphs to a figure... I don't see where it should be a problem..

 

PhilC are you saying that your wm version will not work in P9?

If she does I would love to have her..

Quote - How that data is created is, in my opinion, immaterial ...... providing that the data is supplied in a form that can only be used by someone who has already legally obtained the V4 figure.

Phil. I agree with your opinion.

But if Daz decieded to sue one of us over weight mapping V4, our opinion would not stop it.

Im not saying that they would, but being sued has finacially ruined more than a few people even though they won their case and were not convicted of anything.

Even if the info/data could not be reverse engineered, if they could show that it was created from their product, we would loose.

CYA comes to mind.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

Yes I understand and agree that one can not take any part of the V4 mesh and create a redistributable model from it. For example you can not cut off the scalp area and offer that as a skullcap for Hair Room hair.

But consider a morph target. That must start with the original geometry. It is then "injected" into the figure. It enhances the figure, it does not compete with it and again one must own the figure before you can use the morph.

Weight map data is essentially a look up table of vertex indices against the degree by which they are displaced when a joint is rotated. You can never recreate the geometry from them. They are useless without the original figure.

Quote - Weight map data is essentially a look up table of vertex indices against the degree by which they are displaced when a joint is rotated. You can never recreate the geometry from them. They are useless without the original figure.

I agree with that as well, but if they can show that a certain product, free or for sale, is a direct conversion of their product. You are in fact in violation of the EULA.

Reverse engineering and violation of intellectual property are two different things.

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Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

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I'm going to draw a line under this for the time being. I'll conclude with some house keeping.

My reason for posting was to:

1. Bring to folks attention the exciting developments that are in the pipeline. They are not confirmed, they should be taken at face value.

2. I knew that a number of folks were working on this subject and if I delayed it could very likely mean that much of their work might be wasted.

3. The method by which weight maps are generated and distributed is a potential minefield. Far better to thrash this out before the tools to create them efficiently are made generally available than to wait and have everybody trip over themselves in the, "Is this the I want to be sued sign up line?"

My thanks to those, particularly shvrdavid, who have very eloquently provided counter point opinion and information to enable the salient points to be discussed openly and intelligently. 

Phil, you always do great work and have contributed a ton of stuff to the Poser community (Both in product and knowledge). For that I thank you.

I just want everyone to make sure that whatever they do is legal, that is why I contacted Daz about it.

If anyone is in doubt, ask Daz (or whoever is the owner of the original), to examine your product and provide a written waiver or consent on it.

Better off safe than sorry.

---

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

FWIW, I know a lot of people want to continue using V4 and I have no problem with that. I do as well. But if it's going to bring about a bunch of legal issues, then I say let's move on to the next non-DAZ figure.

Here's one important thing to also consider, adding custom morph injections is not a violation of the EULA, as you require the original mesh to do use it.  You are not distributing a mesh or a figure, you are saying "take vertex #x and move it here"  Without a frame of reference or any knowledge where vertex #x is, you can't even use it.

From the way I understand how the WM will be distributed it will be similar.  It will refer to a specific vertex or group of them, say how those interact with the others around them and go from there.  If you took all the data from the "WM INJ" file and tried to reverse engineer it into a figure, you would get...well, nothing.  I can tell you how point A interacts with a million points, but until you know something about where they all are in relation to each other (something the INJ file would not have) it is worthless.

Besides, DAZ has already spoken and said that doing a script/INJ form of distributing WM's is perfectly legal. (Reference: http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?65006-Distibution-of-weight-mapping-legal-issues.-Confirmation-from-DAZ )

In the end, DAZ has already spoke and has said that they are done with Poser when it comes to figures, so expect new figures from other sources to take her place anyways.

Er... that thread says precisely what you're denying:

QUOTE

Having discussed this internally, the view is that as long as the new
weight map can be separately shipped without needing to include any
proprietary DAZ data (models, weight maps, material definitions, etc.),
then it's fine - note that this would preclude converting a DAZ figure
to weight-mapping and then tweaking those weights. The distribution
method proposed here http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forum...ead_id=2836045
looks as if it should work.

/EOQ - bold print added for emphasis

The distribution method is one thing. The starting point is another. You cannot distribute a weight-mapping that starts with DAZ's existing rigging and converting it.

Edit: I'm not saying that makes sense. I don't think it does at all. But nonetheless that's what DAZ has said.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

That then begs the question of, "How will they be able to tell what the starting point was?"

Quote - That then begs the question of, "How will they be able to tell what the starting point was?"

The weight injection process seems to require that the zone joint data be included in the pose.  The example Nerd posted, presenting the format which Daz has accepted, contains that zone data.  So unless one ran the auto-conversion and then adequately altered the zone joints by hand, the weight injection pose could show what that starting point was.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Quote - > Quote - That then begs the question of, "How will they be able to tell what the starting point was?"

The weight injection process seems to require that the zone joint data be included in the pose.  The example Nerd posted, presenting the format which Daz has accepted, contains that zone data.  So unless one ran the auto-conversion and then adequately altered the zone joints by hand, the weight injection pose could show what that starting point was.

That's not really an answer though. If all of the map data was altered joint by joint after auto conversion, how would you know what the starting point was? I don't think you really could prove it unless they missed one or two joints and had matching data in those joints. And before someone jumps on me for trying to breach a EULA, I haven't even messed with the weight mapping yet and doubt I ever will.

Unless one took steps to alter the zone joint setup after running an auto-conversion, that data would end up in the pose.  Unaltered, it would clearly show the starting point.  If one is going to bother to manually alter all of the joint zones, one might as well go ahead and set them up from scratch (or from whatever starting point the Setup Room or a .phi conversion might give you), IMO.

Not an answer?  Ehh? 

I don't think Daz could ever, absolutely be able to identify the starting point in every single case.  Steps could be taken to try to make such identification difficult.  But embedded zone data in the pose is a way that Daz could identify the starting point under certain conditions.

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Mainly Daz has always stated that using scripts for content creation from their IP (models) is a nono. You can use a Daz figure and manually place polys on the surface to create a form fitting out fit. You man NOT take that same figure into Blender or similar program and use a shrinkwrap script to create the same outfit.

I know it doesn't make sense, but that is their prerogative. The poly by poly method would more than likely follow the figures topology rather than the scripted method. I feel the former method would be a EULA violation and not the later.

So it's against the DAZ EULA to use Crossdresser and Wardrobe Wizard on their outfits?

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=72992&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

It really depends on usage. For personal use you could cut the head of a figure and scale the result for a bodysuit as long as it is for your own use. Sell that suit or even give it away as a freebie and you would be in violation.

Like I said, it's confusing and I'm not sure they know what's legal or not. See above link for more info.

Folks:

Sorry to post in more than one thread, but this is good news. A script is now available to share weight-maps (and animatable origins) legally through a proxy CR2. Our most profound thanks to Cage, Python Maestro.  :)

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Any idea when the 1st update to Poser Pro 2012 is due out so PhilC's 1 click conversion script can be used?

Nobody who knows most probably may post here. Maybe you'll get an answer from ThinkCooper in the RDNA-Forums, but I doubt it.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

Majority concerning "shvrdavid" Comments

After going through this thread carefully , it seems that everything ever made for
The millennium figures would be a copyright en-fragment as for Daz pretending
using any morph, Bones joint zones. .. any information from one of Hes figures would be
copyright en-fragment .. so may I ask, how are the clothings made, where do the informations
come from to add any adaptable morphs or joint zones .. I would say that he would pretend that even a
morph name that is transfered to a clothing would be illegal to use.
Well for hes own purposes.
If it is true what I have read in this forum then 80 percent of all V4 ad-dons would be
stolen and Illegal meaning that every costumer would have the right of a refund
of buys ever since, from any Poser content Store.

I do not assume, like pretended Before that any creator is willing to go to Daz Begging for permission
and have them check there files to be approved , that would seem like a Daz Dictatorship on
how to handle Poser content for hes own Benefits over all creations.
Well we are all little sheep's and believe when one say's this is Law and this is Copyright ... Do We?
if so then there would of never been any clothings and addons for V4 or M4 as any change on a original Figure
would be Copyright In-fragment without a Written Permission.

Since DS4 came out Daz is distancing him self from Poser but still wants the Poser Content to be
compatible with DS4 as DS would be nothing without Poser ! in the opposite way he would not give any Compatibility
all for hes own Profits.

It is not up to Daz do decide over the Poser Market how to make content for the Figures ... as they need the joint parameters
to work on the figure else they would be useless so do the morphs to be able to adapt the clothings. to say it again ,
each clothing part uses this method and would be Illegally produced they would have to be removed from the stores!!
and buyers would have to get there money back.

This weight mapping storry is only an abuse sides DAZ as he knows that the content of Poser would not be Compatible with DS4
once weight Mapped !! Well he is a Business Man , and what do Businessman do ?
Hes expectations of creating incompatible things in DS4 for Poser but Poser has to give Comp ability throughout DS4
well until hes plan of burying Poser is reached.

At the end it is up to the Creators if they wanna give belief on all these Pretending of Copyright also supporting DAZ
to reach hes own purposes.

So why is it such an issue for Weight mapping figure cocerning Copyright?
Why is it not for clothings and Morphs?

When V4 WM was done, it turned out to be a blessing, as rerigging the figure from scratch improved the functionality.

 

I don't disagree with your points about the rigging in conformers, gate, but is it worth the risk of getting sued?

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"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
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Well I dont think that Daz will sue anybody , as I said in theory it is the same thing as creating a Clothing , or adding the Millenium morph to those and sell them, if he sues a vendor for creating Clothings for a Wm or creating  script injecting Wm zones into the Figure even redestribute a WM CR2 he might as well sue all the Previous Millenium addons , allot of vendors use Daz Morphs save them as new Geometrie file , combined morphs and then resell them as there own isent that copyright infragment ? as we all know it was never the question to redestribute a Millenium CR2 with new integrated Morphs or being remapped it always was approved from DAZ you sure will find some in this store, forbidden was to redestribute any OBJ files.

Morphs and joint zones are symply nummbers , coordinates, who the hell would wanna copyright nummbers or coordinates witch are infinitly avaible. 

then saving any figure or prop will change the whole script and will not be combareable with the originall witch makes each unique , with an exeption of the OBJ file or the texture files that are naturally copyright protected. 

the changes in a PZ2 Cr2 are mostly a callup script with each its own coordinates with exeption if you integrate the geometrie into them.

So if DAZ changed hes mind about hes figure he had to do it a long time ago, forbitting any changes of CR2 changes or modifications. so why is he doing it now ?

One word competition..

They do not want competition for their new figure even if it's one of their own figures revised.. :(

Quote - One word competition..

They do not want competition for their new figure even if it's one of their own figures revised.. :(

That's sooo true!  But that's the thing about business... there's going to be competition whether they like it or not. They shouldn't take it personally though, after all, "It's just business."  :0) 

Vive Bene.  Spesso L'Amore.  Di Risata Molto.
Live Well.  Love Often.  Laugh Much.

Quote - So why is it such an issue for Weight mapping figure cocerning Copyright?
Why is it not for clothings and Morphs?

Eulas are so they can pull the plug, so to speak.

I went strait to the source and asked them. I went by what I was told by Daz.

It is their character, their Eula, and they can do whatever they want with it because no one that bought V4 actually owns it.

I also completely agree that is seems strange that they did not want to allow something that is done with clothes all the time, to be done with an addon for the character.

Didn't really matter in the end. V4 WM is in lots of runtimes now.

V4 WM extended how long the character will be usefull, in Poser, for a long time.

---

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store ->   <-Freebies->

Well in the Law it is so as soon as you bought this file it is free for your usage a lifetime, even if the owner prohibits the redestribution of the original file it does not mean that it could not be modefied. as soon as you make changes on a digital Item , in this case it is the purpose to do so as the figures where created on this Base, the creator will loose part rights on it. In the law of products that are provided to make your own creations it is so that you buy the copyrighted necessary stuff .. example you buy Fabric to create your clothes the fabric is copyright protected , but as soon as you modefie the fabric and make a shirt ot of it the shirt and the fabric is under your copyright as you got only the material to create a new product.

then to be able to partly copyright protect a product you have to go through copyrightoffice and registrate your work depending on the product you have to give proof that you own the whole product in our case model creations it has to be proven even if it is a texture Skin who provided the skin , who's skin is it and it has to be given credit to the one who originally provided the skin , especially if it is based on a picture of a human organic skin if not ig would go under Privacy invasion of the originall skin provider.

the figure provided from DAZ is only a base to be able to create your own like a child box of parts to glue together as soon as you saved your own CR2 in a new form it is legally fully in possesion of the new creator and he can do whateve he whants with it.

Any programm provides you with simple Meshes to be able to create your own you use it to create a new thing you sell it as your own creation even that that part consitst of copyrightprotected parts !!!

Maya provided a Scifi Motocycle as a learning Programm this modell has been modefied several times some slight changes a little morph here and there , this modefied modell can be found here in DAZ store and also in other stores and it is Legaly protected by the new creator as long as it has not been changed again by an other one.

the material provided for grafic programms are ment to be to create your own like material to build your own house not more and not less, like copyrightprotected paint you buy to make your own paintings  

I can give you another sample for fully legal Copywriting , you create a Digital building witch you need to texture , so you google for textures Images or even you go and take detailed Pictures of doors windows etc. in first hand you have to inform the owner get a written permission, inform the originall owner that you will use this Picture im Public and even resell it this permission has to be added in your copyrightstatement each detail of added things have to be added in your copyrightform inclusive the names of the providers , the date the Place the Person.

Now somone should give me a sample of how many products in this store or the Daz store can provide such a legal statement on there product, would we go traight twoards the legal procedure of copyright over 90 percent of sold items would have to be taken down from the stores, they would have to go through a longtime procedure to be approved and most would not even pass the requirements , prices would raise to heaven, and no hobbiist could afford any figures.

my conclusion is that DAZ statement is a big Bluff on hes own thoughts about Legal copyright just to be able to controll this market restricting other great creatores. threatning and fear always was a great weapon but it is not the throuth it is only a way to make Buisness for own Purposes. 

Probably so, but if they issue a DMCA takedown, what is one's recoursse?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
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A "DMCA takedown notice" has to do with finding a website that is using one of your "images" without permission. You may then contact the hosting ISP to report the infringment. The letter that you send is called a "DMCA Takedown notice." 

What does that notice have to do with making morphs or creating a character for V4?

Another thing I don't understand is how anyone can copyrite a shape. And that's exactly what V4/M4/K4 is... they are shapes. That's like saying I'm going to copyrite air and anyone who breathes it will have to pay me... Sounds pretty freaking rediculous, donit??

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well they would have to prove the digital infragment the creator has to be able to give proof that he actually created the redestributed file , but he dident as the script will totally differ from hes, there will be no match and he cant pretend that he made the creation you did, he only provided the possibilitie to create it and even claimed it as such when sold. If it would be as easy then the Internet would not exist anymore immagine if somone would start to say the sold packs consist of copywrited stuff , each Creator would have to be able to give proof of where the stuff came from, and could they ?? as long as you dont try to resell the Millenium figure in its current state you are on the right path like most of the things that have been created and sold throughout the stores.

if one day one stands in front of your house and will say ... I have copyright on that stone brick in your wall , you have to remove it as I did not give you the permission to build it into your wall ... you also have no right to resell that house !! would that not be a little paradox. 

also if costumers would be blocked on using there files as they where sold to be able to show an own creativity and as base to create there own, they could clame there money back as it would be fraud. 

Quote - A "DMCA takedown notice" has to do with finding a website that is using one of your "images" without permission. You may then contact the hosting ISP to report the infringment. The letter that you send is called a "DMCA Takedown notice." 

What does that notice have to do with making morphs or creating a character for V4?

The DMCA applies to any copyrighted work

As derivative works under US copyright laws, DAZ owns the copyright of morphs and characters of their copyrighted meshes. One is alllowed to use or distribute them only according to the terms of DAZ' license...

EDIT: Here is some discussion of Derivative Works from the USPTO...

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
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Oh I understand that DMCA applies to any copyrighted work. However, if Victoria is injected with a change then the author of that injection is the copyright holder. Otherwise, 90% of the stuff sold here in the marketplace and elsewhere is in violation of copyright, according to the DAZ license???

What I'd like to know is if DAZ registered Victoria with the copyright office. There is no evidence available, that I'm aware, to show how Victoria has been registered in the copyrite office, if at all. Also, the US Copyright office is not the authority for the entire world and we all know she's been sold across the globe.

Each change or modification of Victoria follows the author of the change, not DAZ. I'm not arguing that DAZ doesn't hold copyrite to Victoria, but we're talking about derivitive works done to her.

Carefully read the artical you posted. Mainly it concerns motion pictures, novels, sound recordings and drawings. I think you may have missed some key points, too much for me to go into here.

Everything that was allowed before is now prohibitted?? and that's actually something the law cannot do. Can't be legal one day then pass laws that make what you did before now illegal. That's called  an ex post facto law or retroactive law, which is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions committed or relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law. Since the US is a country that has a bill of right and a constitution, ex post facto legislation is prohibited. But, DAZ is apparently changing their license as it suits them. And as far I'm concerned they don't play nice with the other kids, so they are going to be playing alone if they keep it up.

Vive Bene.  Spesso L'Amore.  Di Risata Molto.
Live Well.  Love Often.  Laugh Much.

Quote - Everything that was allowed before is now prohibitted?? and that's actually something the law cannot do. Can't be legal one day then pass laws that make what you did before now illegal. That's called  an ex post facto law or retroactive law, which is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions committed or relationships that existed prior to the enactment of the law. Since the US is a country that has a bill of right and a constitution, ex post facto legislation is prohibited. But, DAZ is apparently changing their license as it suits them. And as far I'm concerned they don't play nice with the other kids, so they are going to be playing alone if they keep it up.

A license is a contract, which falls under civil, not criminal law, which is what ex post facto legislation involves.  The DAZ EULA (which has not changed recently AFAIK) spells out what derivative works of theor copyrighted products are allowed and what can be done with them, and they have given an opinion as to what is permisible as far as sharing rigging goes.  Based on your comments, for your own protection I suggest you consult with an attorney in your country for advice if any aspects of DAZ' license are unclear...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

But v4 has a commerical license... and you would not be including any obj/texture/cr2, etc... that they created. In fact the vertice weight 3d space of an object you create and map could not be exactly the same as any other object... If you were to alter the maps in any way after using any auto feature, would it then not be completely unique (not that I'm going to use it... just playing devils advocate)?

 

legal aside.... good to know about the weight mapping!

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Quote -

A license is a contract, which falls under civil, not criminal law, which is what ex post facto legislation involves. The DAZ EULA (which has not changed recently AFAIK) spells out what derivative works of theor copyrighted products are allowed and what can be done with them, and they have given an opinion as to what is permisible as far as sharing rigging goes. Based on your comments, for your own protection I suggest you consult with an attorney in your country for advice if any aspects of DAZ' license are unclear...

Yes I'm aware that ex post facto legislation involves criminal activity.   It also involves civil cases under the US Constition Article I, section 10, clause 1 (contracts). 

Based on my comments you suggest I consult with an attorney? I never said aspects of the DAZ license are unclear to me. I am simply questioning them, which I have every right to do. To consult an attorney would imply that I make derivitives of Victoria, which I do not, and I have no intention of doing so for the purposes of making money. Thanks for your concern though, I am perfectly capable of protecting myself.

Vive Bene.  Spesso L'Amore.  Di Risata Molto.
Live Well.  Love Often.  Laugh Much.

Quote - A license is a contract, which falls under civil, not criminal law, which is what ex post facto legislation involves.  The DAZ EULA (which has not changed recently AFAIK) spells out what derivative works of theor copyrighted products are allowed and what can be done with them, and they have given an opinion as to what is permisible as far as sharing rigging goes.  Based on your comments, for your own protection I suggest you consult with an attorney in your country for advice if any aspects of DAZ' license are unclear...

 

Fact is that the DAZ Eula prohibits anything exept usage of Rendering. Fact is also that any who will resell an addon Product modefiing the Mesh has to be done with agrement of DAZ , the figure could in theory only be used in her his original state to create renders. that is the DAZ Eula in short terms .

International Law requires Translation of contracts DAZ does not offer that feature, in each cauntry there would be the need of a representant for the Product to make it Legal.

Any Vendor who have created Clothings addons Morphs etc would have to be given by daz a legal written Permission to use and resell direct related Products EX. Morphs integrated into the Mesh ! witch would as soon signed by Daz, give the full right to the one reselling of parts of the figure.

as for it has been done since Five years without any explict Permissions from DAZ throughout the vendors, in Knowelege and with support from DAZ,makes it  an Unwritten Contract to be able to do it anyway. DAZ Broke hes own Laws and contract and cant come now Saying that anybody did anything against he's eula.

As mentioned before any changes modificatons Injectable morphs or coordinates made from third Person are not propriety of DAZ ( They are not under hes contract ) even if the purpose of usage is a Figure he Provided.

using for example crossdresser to modefie or INJ morphs will recreate the Mesh In low Medium or High res save a new Obj file and remap the figure. means that these will not be comparable to the Originally used Mesh.

to conclude this my meaning would be that DAZ offers the millenium figure onto the free market to Improve he her ( Not locking her into a cage as hes little Trophy )even doh that it might of been a copy of dan farr and he's wife. He could aprofite as well. the ones who provide new ideas to Improve the mesh could keep her in buisness. he would not even lose the status of being the creator of the originall mesh ! this way the stores even Hes store could approfite of new posibilities of products to be sold.the way it goes now he only restricts him self and others ( calling that GOD complex ) but is not rational, buisnessman should think as such.