I'm using the Chrystalline Hair for V4 on my character, and I have a question about it.

I haven't changed any of the default settings for the hair, but I am able to see through the cones, and also see the scalp through the hair. It's my understanding that the promo pictures for items don't have any postwork done on them, so I'm wondering why my Chrystalline Hair doesn't seem to behaving itself.

I'm also using ToXic for Chrystalline.

This is probably a really lame question, and for that I apologise but I was wondering if someone would know what is going on, if it's a lighting thing, or something in the render settings that needs adjusting to make the hair look solid.

I have raytracing enabled and I have a high resolution output 3000px @ 300DPI, approximately. I'm not sure what else it could be.

(Product page)

Have you recently upgraded your version of Poser to any version of Poser Pro? If so, are you rendering with Gamma Correction enabled? Hair trans maps (and indeed any non-colour maps: bump/spec/etc) need to have their gamma value set to 1 in the Texture Editor.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

I'm using Poser Pro 2010 - haven't upgraded my Poser program.

Is the Gamma Correction in the Render settings option window? Or do I change the gamma value in the Properties tab, in the main Pose window?

Gamma is set in the render settings (on the right-hand side, under HRDI optimised output)

There are quite a few threads featuring the sage advice of one Bagginsbill on the care and feeding of Gamma Correction, so I won't go into whether you should use it or not: that depends a lot on your workflow and preferences. However, to use it implies some workflow changes. Pay-for lights - even the popular ones - don't really take GC into account. Neither do any materials.

For lighting, I'd develop my own.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

For materials, you can run a script that will set gamma for all your non-colour maps to 1.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

set it to 1

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Go with all props and figures...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Then, choose "all of the above"...

and click Okay.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

You can confirm that this has been done by going into the material room, and clicking on any non-colour texture file node on the field next to the image_source channel name. This brings up the texture editor. At the bottom you will see the correct setting has been made for that texture.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Oh, thankyou thankyou thankyou thankyou!!!

I just changed the GC to 1 on another render, using the same character and hair, and it made a MASSIVE improvement! I always thought there was something wrong with my lights, because I wasn't doing something properly with them, not having enough lights in the scene... but I can see now it was the Gamma that was causing problems, not the lights at all.

I didnt understand what the Gamma Correction was in the Render settings, so I left it at Default, which was pretty high at 2.2 (I think). I will have to remember to drop it down to 1 from now on. I prefer the results.

Thankyou again!! I learned something new today big grin

You are quite welcome!

You might want to experiment with gamma correction with a 2.2 setting and following that rather quick non-colour map change from 2.2 to 1 via script eventually... again, you'll find messing with lights and all that a bit of a challenge but Bagginsbill has left a lot of information about how to achieve good renders using gamma correction.

For instance, this image was done with gamma correction on:

Click on the image for a larger version

This also features his scatter/diffuse with blinn shader and IDL, rendered in PP2012.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Keep in mind that almost all lights - commercial and otherwise - were developed before gamma correction was readily available or even somewhat understood. So no, the problem wasn't really GC - it was your lights AND gamma correction. As you can see in the image above, you can achieve reasonably decent results with gamma correction but your approach to lighting will most likely need to be revised.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Now I know what the Gamma Correction will do when I play around with it, I'll adjust the settings and see what different results I come up with. Changing the 2.2 in the Render settings window to 1 got me a result I'm very happy with, but there is always room for improvement.

My approach to lighting is still very very basic and amateurish, but with the GC adjustments, I know my lighting will need tweaking because I'm getting different results.

You have referred to information left by Bagginsbill - do you have a link where I could find this information so I can have a read?

This thread should get you started...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Thanks very much!!!

Should I even bother explaining about enabling GC with gamma=1 everywhere?

I'm going to just not bother unless the readers can follow and understand the difference between the following words:

some

all

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

So, using renderer gamma for colour maps is not on? New information to me.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

I guess the implication is that if the texture Editor setting says "Use Gamma settings from render settings" that that is what is going to be used as opposed to something else. So, why is this wrong?

See, none of this was explained anywhere before. So, please preface with "oh, by-the-way, new information!" if this is what it is. First I heard that colour maps are meant to be set to gamma of 1.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Should I even bother explaining about enabling GC with gamma=1 everywhere?

I'm going to just not bother unless the readers can follow and understand the difference between the following words:

some

all

I am sorry but I didn't know that my query about the hair was related to the Gamma Correction. I'm new to Poser and still getting my head around the settings. The vast majority of the Default settings I leave them alone- only a few I understand enough to change.

No, I think that remark was addressing my recommendation to select "all of the above" instead of "all materials" which is brand-new information to me. Still need to hear the justification for 1) why and 2) why was this not shared before.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

JK - you have no need to apologize. I'm actually speaking to a wider audience. But you said something now which triggers a revisiting of the same topic that came up last week in another thread.

Somebody else also claimed that they liked the results of gamma=1 in render settings. I pointed out that GC=1 in render settings is the same as not using gamma at all. Then as proof, images were shown where it was clear that not all the gamma values were gamma=1.

As Robyn has shown, it is possible to set the assumed gamma on individual images and shown that when GC is enabled, you really should set the gamma=1 on transparency maps, bump maps, and displacement maps. This is because such maps have a gamma of 1 and assuming they have any other gamma causes them to be messed up.

However, the color maps have a gamma of 2.2 and gamma correction needs to know that. As well, the final color image should have a gamma of 2.2 and that is the value of the render setting.

Now - the assumed gamma of incoming images, unless you tell it otherwise, is the same as the value you set in render settings. That shows in the texture manager - the default gamma assigned to an image is "Use gamma value from render settings". This means that the incoming image gamma is equal to whatever you set in render settings unless you change it.

Is that clear? If you start with a new system, in a scene nobody where the number of individual color map changes have been manipulated is zero, then the individual color map gamma is the same as the render setting gamma.

In such systems, where

all color maps have the same gamma setting as the render setting
you set gamma=1 in render settings

You get exactly the same outcome as:

Turning gamma correction off

Robyn - Your reactions should just be deleted. Eveything you wrote before I wrote was fine. The reason I wrote at all has nothing to do with what you said.

I wrote something in this thread because I saw another person saying "I like gamma = 1" and that is the same as saying "I do not want to use gamma correction".

Why do I say this?

Gamma = 1 does nothing
There's no need to learn all this altered workflow and then set gamma = 1. Just don't enable GC. It's the same thing.

The reason I'm worried about speaking at all is in the other thread, it got nuts. My words were not understood, and the reaction was very negative. I'm nervous about it.

For the gamma correction operation (which is really selective gamma change), a gamma value of 1 is a null operation. It doesn't do anything. If you perform the null operation everywhere, then you're doing nothing.

The key is are you really doing it everywhere, always, etc. In the previous discussion, I and a couple others asserted that when the person said "I have gamma=1" they did not - they had some places where it was not 1, but some other number. Under that condition, i.e. some were gamma=1, not all were gamma=1, then enabling GC shows something changes. But if you really have all gamma=1, then enabling GC does nothing.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - No, I think that remark was addressing my recommendation to select "all of the above" instead of "all materials" which is brand-new information to me. Still need to hear the justification for 1) why and 2) why was this not shared before.

That's not what I said at all.

I am writing about the color maps.

I am writing in response to anybody who says

"Oh - I like gamma correction now. I enable it and set gamma=1 and it looks good."

This is either a nonsense statement, based on incorrect perception, or inaccurate based on the fact that gamma is not 1 in all places.

If GC is on with all gamma=1, there is no difference than if GC is off.

How do you get all gamma=1?

You get that if you never modify an individual image gamma, and in render settings you place a 1.

And by "you" here I mean anybody (plural) who configured the content. If an image gamma was individually configured by a vendor and "you" bought it, then "you" (plural) have modified an individual gamma value. "You" cannot say gamma = 1 in such case, because "you" (plural) did two things, not one thing.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Gotcha. I apologise. I misunderstood what you were on about. It sounded like I should be setting all maps (colour and non) to 1 - and this was the first I'd heard about it.

No question; gamma correction is poorly understood. Lots of people prefer - and insist that this is the right thing to do! - to just disable it. They obviously hadn't read your thread(s) on the topic, and if they did, either didn't understand it or dismissed it as either "too-hard" or "doesn't fit my workflow: I've done okay without it so why change now". Which is like saying: "oh, I'll upgrade to the new version of Poser but since I don't understand the new features I'll just go ahead and disable the lot". Bloody hell - makes no sense at all: why bother getting PP in the first place? For the Collada support? 64-bit rendering?

But I do try to stay up on information you bring to the forum, following every new thread you post in, so imagine my frustration at this post (one that I totally misinterpreted / misunderstood).

I do have my own workflow. My use of matmatic would make you cringe. But it's an incredible tool (one you should be charging for!) and as you know, everyone does weird stuff with the tools they are given. matmatic is brilliant at automation. It's brilliant at a bunch of other stuff too, but that's the bit I get.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Good.

And conversely, said individuals, unaware of individual image gamma settings, are dismissing GC as "washed out" exactly in the same scenarios.

Consider this:

I have a chair. I have pretended to be clueless and I set the image gamma for the chair texture to be equal to 1. Meanwhile in render settings I enable GC at 2.2.

What do I see? A washed out chair with improved shadow luminance. I erroneously conclude that GC washes out colors.

It does not wash out colors. This is not GC. This is gamma change, not correction. When you misconfigure the gamma values, it is no longer correction. It is an arbitrary change.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

However, when I restore the correct settings for "gamma correction", where the incoming gamma is 2.2 on color maps, and the outgoing gamma is 2.2, we get perfection.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

This is what you get when *all* gamma = 1, and also what you get when GC is turned off.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - I wrote something in this thread because I saw another person saying "I like gamma = 1" and that is the same as saying "I do not want to use gamma correction".

That was me - commenting on the results I got, with the corrected hair and the brightness on the lights in the next render I did after doing as Robyn suggested with dropping the Gamma Correction in the Render settings scene down to 1.

I think I understand the Gamma Correction a little better now - although I am still a bit confused about it, as it does strike me as a very complex and convoluted thing.

I did understand that the GC value of 1 = GC being nullified... but I still consider the results with GC in Render settings set at 1 when I did my render with the Chrystalline hair and the overall lightness that I plan on doing some more experiments with changing the values in the GC when I do my next renders.

I still feel I should apologise, as after you have offered a long explanation about the GC, and I'm still coming back with saying that I liked the results I had with GC on 1, it seems ignorant of me.

You need not say "that was me". I didn't use the phrase "another person" because I didn't know it was you. I used it because it didn't matter who it was, it was another person saying it.

Let's clarify this, then because I need to understand what you see and what you do, so I can fix this (communication and understanding) problem forever.

If you "like the results" with GC on 1, compared to GC off, you must have a difference. Can you show me the difference? The last time I did not get past this step, but there are more steps after that. First we have to establish a difference. Then we find out why it exists, and discover that gamma is not 1.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Every time we get into a GC understanding discussion, the person I'm dealing with goes off and does hour-long renders. You don't need to do that. Is that what you're doing? While I was waiting for a response, I did 30 renders with GC off, GC=1 and GC=2.2. Want to see some?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Miki 3 GC off.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC on gamma=1 *everywhere*

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC on, gamma=2.2 on color maps and render setting, gamma=1 on bump maps and transmaps

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC off

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC=1

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC=2.2

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC off

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC gamma=1

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC gamma=2.2

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Using V4 and Girl Next Door shaders and textures.

GC off

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC = 1

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

GC = 2.2

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Every time we get into a GC understanding discussion, the person I'm dealing with goes off and does hour-long renders. You don't need to do that. Is that what you're doing? While I was waiting for a response, I did 30 renders with GC off, GC=1 and GC=2.2. Want to see some?

Heh, no I wasn't doing hour-long renders. I did a couple of test renders very early this evening (probably about 3 hours ago) before you posted in this topic, and the test renders only took me about 10 minutes at half-size- I was adjusting my lights after dropping the GC in Render Settings down to 1.

In my opinion, they turned out rather nicely- will post one after I shrink it down (3000px is a wee bit big for forums) And after I postworked them, I've been banging my head against Photoshop, trying - and failing - to paint fire.

Your example renders highlight the difference in the settings very clearly. Thankyou :)

No postwork is applied to this picture *dances happily* I am very pleased with it.

The only GC value I editted was in the Render Settings dialogue window. I adjusted it to a value of 1

Are you coming back with the comparison render where GC is disabled? One image alone does not demonstrate why you prefer GC=1 versus GC off.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

going back to the orignal image of the thread I would have taken a stab that render is not set to render back facing polys

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

Quote - Every time we get into a GC understanding discussion, the person I'm dealing with goes off and does hour-long renders. You don't need to do that. Is that what you're doing? While I was waiting for a response, I did 30 renders with GC off, GC=1 and GC=2.2. Want to see some?

atleast one other thread follower goes off for long renders

Creach needs GC and SSS luv.

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

I'm trying my hand at this GC business, as I'm still a newbie to the Poser Pro 2012 experience, since I'm coming from Poser 7...

One of the models I use rather frequently is LittleDragon's Krystal model. Of course, I wanted to see what GC and possibly other tweaks can do for her, as her material settings are rather basic. Inspired by BB's comparison pictures above, I tried the same with Krystal, and I'm wondering if there are other suggestions.

Here's the model with GC completely off.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Now, this is with GC in the render settings as 2.2, and 1 globally in the material settings

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

And lastly, this is with GC on 2.2, and normal texture maps on 2.2, and bump and trans at 1.

Obviously, the middle one is way blown out, and strangely, just for the head texture. (the head and body textures are separate).

Any thoughts, suggestions, mailbombs?

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

i like the outfit colours in the 1st Krystal, looks vivid on my monitor. The 2nd and 3rd gives her skin tone a matte look.

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Exactly, and I know that gamma correction is a good thing, but I'm guessing some changes need to be mad to the texture or material settings, but I don't know where to start.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Daymond,

What colors are on your lights. Do you understand that Poser Gamma Correction turns on many bits of software, including things affecting your lights.

The difference between your #2 and #3, confined to the head, means the words you wrote are not true. So I have to suspect everything you wrote. If image gamma = 1 on both texture in #2, and image gamma = 2.2 on both textures of #3, then the either or both images are the wrong images.

Also - you're not even addressing the point I was making. You're raising new points. There are actually about 1000 things to say about gamma.

The point I was making was this:

When all enabled gamma changing functions are set to gamma = 1, the results are identical as with no gamma changing functions enabled.

To address that point, demonstrations should include a render with all gamma = 1 and GC on, versus GC off.

We're back to my very first issue. You can't play in this discussion if you cannot track the exact meaning and distinction between:

all

some

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

First thing when doing GC comparisons is to get your lighting to stop being involved.

Here's what I'm talking about.

Enabling GC with gamma = X in render settings does the following things:

For every image that does not have it's own explicit gamma value and is a low dynamic range (LDR) image, it assigns gamma = X. HDR images with no explicit gamma are assigned gamma = 1. No explicit gamma means that the checkbox for "Use render gamma" is enabled for that image. Images are all images - even IBL images inside lights.
Every color chip in the shader system is assigned gamma = X. This includes the colors in every kind of node. Light colors are in a node, so this means light colors get a gamma as well.

When gamma is active, only eight colors are unaffected. All other colors are affected. The eight colors that are not affected (will not change with gamma enabled or disabled) are:

Black 0, 0, 0

White 255, 255, 255

Red 255, 0, 0

Green 0, 255, 0

Blue 0, 0, 255

Cyan 0, 255, 255

Magenta 255, 0, 255

Yellow 255, 255, 0

White 255, 255, 255

OK so far?

Now every color chip (lights, materials, atmosphere - everywhere) and every image is anti-gamma corrected by

x ^ gamma

For those images where gamma = 1 (either explicitly or implicitly) this does nothing. Otherwise if the image has any color in it besides the eight I listed, it is modified. Any color chips besides the eight I listed are modified.

The pixel color of a render pixel is calculated.

The final output color is gamma corrected by the formula:

x ^ (1 / gamma)

For gamma = 1, this does nothing.

For gamma = 2.2, this does

X = x ^ (1 / 2.2)

I'm using upper case X to mean the value stored in the render, and lower case x to mean the correct color in linear color space.

Then when this is displayed on a monitor with a standard gamma of 2.2, the monitor applies its gamma

X ^ 2.2

Put back the render expression for X and you get

x ^ (1 / 2.2) ^ 2.2

which is

x ^ (2.2 / 2.2)

same as

x ^ 1

same as

x

In other words, the final gamma correction is how you cause the correct color to appear on your monitor. If you don't do that, you get a different color, unless it happens to be one of the eight pure colors I listed.

So we want to stop dealing with gamma in lights and materials and final render because it is confusing to be changing so many things at once. People say they did not change anything but the render gamma. Well that means you changed 100 things.

So here's your simple rule for the time being.

Your light color must be WHITE - RGB 255, 255, 255.

Anything else and you're going to be chasing dreams.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

For the purpose of the test picture, I went with just the default Poser Pro 2012 lights, because I figured you would be familiar with how they look and act. The colors are the default light grey and such.

I'm sorry if I'm not asking the right questions or such. As stated above, Poser Pro 2012 is new to me, as is gamma correction, but unlike other people you've dealt with that just say "screw it, I'll do without", I -want- to learn and understand it.

Also as previously stated in the pictures, the first picture is with GC off, and the second is with it turned on, but with the different material settings' gamma at 1.

I'm sorry if I'm wasting your time being a newbie who knows nothing but wishes to understand, but we all have to start somewhere, and the thread search just isn't as good as some people like to say it is.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Relax. Please stop addressing the format of the discourse and just address the points.

Your image #2 and #3 have the same output in the body.

This contradicts what you've said, twice now.

Go check your work.

Set image gamma = 1 on both. Check it again in the texture manager dialog.

Then render and call that a name you can't confuse - like "ImgGamma=1 RndrGamma=22.jpg"

Compare that to the posted image #2.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

But don't even bother with any more tests unless you set all light colors to white.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

PP2012 has a handy dialog under Scripts/Partners/Image Gamma

This is what it looks like when you do not have all image gamma set to 1 - just some.

some

not

all

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

This is what it looks like when you have *all* image gamma = 1.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Please note that this dialog is a little buggy. If you have tricky shaders, it will occasionally not notice an image involved in that shader.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I notice also among your 3 images, you changed the background/floor.

So there's another thing you changed but said you didn't change anything like that.

Be careful.

some is not all

only is not one of many

You made many changes and claimed you only made gamma changes.

If you're going to understand you must be meticulous. Failure to accept responsibility for mistakes, for changes you didn't realize you made, will lead to your confusion, not mine. I understand this stuff perfectly and nothing ever happens to me that I did not anticipate, plan, and expect.

Even a simple change like show/hide the floor, and you have IDL enabled, you are changing the lighting. Watch that.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I am completely unfamiliar with the default lights. I deleted them the moment they arrived.

Just because something comes with Poser doesn't make it good. Almost all the materials and lights suck, completely.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Krystal is good - something I can work with also, because it's free.

So here I'm using a single infinite white light at 90% intensity, plus IDL is enabled.

The floor will influence the light because of IDL. Bounced light will fill the otherwise 100% shadows.

The background is black and will not change in any test.

Gamma control OFF

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Image Gamma = 1

Render Gamma = 1

Flip test should make it clear that this is the same as previously, i.e. identical to Gamma Off.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Image Gamma = 1

Render Gamma = 2.2

This is where Gamma Correction is intentionally unbalanced and is NOT actually a "correction". It is a change in gamma, but not a correction of gamma.

You can't use gamma-in=1 and gamma-out=2.2. It produces washed out results. You could track the math easily enough, or you can use your eyes.

And there is no reason to do this. Nevertheless people keep doing this. I don't know why. Yes it's ugly.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Finally, actual gamma correction.

Image gamma = 2.2

Render gamma = 2.2

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Okay, I re-did these from the start, and labled them as I went. The included pictures are with two pure white (all 255) lights, no IDL, and floor hidden.

I do appreciate your bringing my attention to the Image Gamma script. That certainly is handy, and luckily, the Krystal model's shaders are painfully simplistic, so there were no bugs that I saw. I'm figuring that some "node sorcery" could possibly make this model's textures look much better, but I might be getting too far ahead of myself.

edit: dangit, and you posted before I got mine in. Darn email alerts are only coming in when they want to, it seems.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Notice in my last two that the ground and the tube top do not change color. They both have shaders with no images in them. So image gamma is not a factor for them - just render gamma. Both of them have colors that are correct no matter what as they have no images involved.

Comparing my fox #3 and #4 in a flip test, you see the blue texture changing - nothing else.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Your middle is incorrect. That is not gamma=1 everywhere, as you labeled it.

That is gamma=1 on images, gamma = 2.2 on render.

Are you trying to be confused?

I am attempting as politely as possible to make everybody aware of the difference between words like

all, every, everywhere, universally

and words like

some, one, a few, sometimes, here and there, occasionally,

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Ah shit, you're right. Dangit. I think I'm rushing myself too much that I'm getting myself messed up.

Either way, though, the last version with gamma = 2.2 on images, 2.2 on render is how it ultimately should look like, then? That lightbulb over my head is starting to come on, but it's flickering and buzzing.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Thank you - I love you - you are my #1 pupil now.

Not because I'm right. But because you learned the most important lesson. When you don't know something and are unused to dealing with it, it rarely matters what you think you did. You probably did something else.

Took me years of Poser work to learn that every time I "discovered" or "proved" something, I needed to do it again six more ways, from scratch, before I could trust that I really discovered that. I get in fights with people on this forum for that simple reason. They think I'm pompous and over sure of my understanding, when it's exactly the OTHER WAY AROUND.

But not with you, thank goodness.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

You've given me an idea. I'm going to make a prop that you can include in a render.

When render gamma = 1 or render GC is off, it will be black. When render gamma is >= 2.2 it will be white. For any other values it will show a mixture of white dots on a black background.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Hell, I'm a former game tester for EA. I'm of the persuasion that if I found something, but can't reproduce it, it doesn't exist. :>

That said, I am looking into something that may or not be a bug, concerning Krystal's dynamic hair-based fur tail. It seems that every now and then, it stops being "fluffy" like it should, and instead, only renders the guide hairs that show during preview. Suppose I'll submit a ticket if I can nail that one down and consistently, if it's not already been addressed.

Currently using Poser Pro 2012 (Display Units = feet)

AMD Phenom II 3.2ghz (6 cores)

8gb RAM

Windows 10 Pro 64bit

OK I've uploaded a modified version of my light meter, called the BBGammaMeter.

The center will show diffuse light levels just like my BBLightMeter. But the rim will show render gamma level.

gamma = 1 will be black

gamma = 1.8 will be almost all white

gamma = 2 will be yellow

gamma = 2.2 or higher will be red

You can get it here:

https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/file-cabinet/BBGammaMeter.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here is gamma = 1 or gamma off.

(All image gamma are set to "scene")

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here is gamma=1.8

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here is gamma=2

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

And here is gamma = 2.2.

From now on, I will reject any claim of render gamma - just include my meter and I'll know what your light levels were and what your render gamma was.

I'll still have to trust you to tell me your image gamma values, but don't think I can't tell just by looking at it that your data is right or wrong.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

hate to jump in in the midle of your lesson BB , but i want to make the related comment: I dont ever use the the GC in P2010, i have all of my favorite skin, clothing, hair, etc shaders that have been genrated by VSS in my library and so I load those shaders and i set the different GC levels for the different items in the scene via the shaders. obviously not commenting on the nature of GC here, just pointing out a different approach than using the GC in P2010 / P9

______________________

"When you have to shoot ...

SHOOT.

Don't talk "

- Tuco

Santicor's Gallery:

http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=3&userid=580115

PP2012 default lights:

Light1: IBL Color(.621, .547, .578), Int: 100%, x:-59 y:-46 z:29, No shadow, AO .7

Light2: Spot Color(.742, .745, .740), Int: 100%, xr:-3 yr:-151 zr:-8, xt:129.18 yt:53.21 zt:-156.7, DM shadows: SBR 2 SS 19 SMB .8, AO .7

Light3: Spot Color(.914, .896, 1), Int: 100%, xr:113 yr:331 zr:-164, xt:-83.01 yt:147.08 zt:-4.225, DM shadows: SBR 2 SS 19 SMB .8, AO .7

Light4: Infinite Color(.685, .685, .685), Int: 100%, xr:-79 yr:-14 zr:9 DM shadows: SBR 2 SS 19 SMB .8, No AO

For what it's worth.

So all shadows are depth mapped, no colours fit the "will not be affected by gamma change" criteria. For the purposes of this discussion: not useful lights at all. Which is why I make my own.

To me there is no question: lights and material shaders are intimately tied together. If you don't consider lights are key to getting it right with gamma correction, you'll never be playing on a level playing field and so won't know what's happening with what. Doesn't mean I've sorted everything out completely about GC: my issues with makeup make it clear that there are still holes in my process somewhere. Thank for the Gamma meter and for pointing out that script: I'll run that past some of my questionable scenes and see what is going on.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - OK I've uploaded a modified version of my light meter, called the BBGammaMeter.

The center will show diffuse light levels just like my BBLightMeter. But the rim will show render gamma level.

gamma = 1 will be black

gamma = 1.8 will be almost all white

gamma = 2 will be yellow

gamma = 2.2 or higher will be red

You can get it here:

https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/file-cabinet/BBGammaMeter.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

This will work on any version of Poser that has GC right? Not just P9/Pro 2012?

________________________________________________________________

If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

Should do, Modus0. What a cool idea, hey?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Yes it will actually "work" on any version of Poser from P5 and up. Thing is that only the Pro versions will ever draw it in anything but black.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Chrystalline Hair query?