Any one from the DAZ forum knows me, I'm the doom sayer, the negative force, the cronic complainer. The banned man Stan.

With everyones head stuck in Genesis, people seem to be missing far greater trouble on the horizen. It's no help that some subjects are simply taboo on the DAZ forum. How do you keep a populess ignorent? By controling the media.

Poser users are pointing to Genesis as proof DAZ nolonger suports Poser. That is a falicy. When new tech is introed in one app it takes time to make it compatable in other apps, then it is up to the company that develops the app you are importing to to make it compatable. What the Poser folk are over looking is the new installers, which no place during the installation process are "poser" or "runtime" mentioned. Real fun when you are trying to install in poser format to a run time. More over the latest installers need a tutorial. When an installer needs a tutorial it has defeated it purpose.

Many of us at DAZ have been asking to have content offered in the easy to use zip file; if you are on a PC. What we will be getting is far from zip files. DAZ has decided to take the entire process out of your hands. Yes, the virtual store. I have only read a thin out line of it and even that scares me.

The way it reads you will have to have CMS installed to actually shop at DAZ. Daz will download and install your purcahes for you. CMS will be used to update installed content.

Do to the sketchy description of this I am making a lot of assumtions; not as many as you may think though.

To update your curant content DAZ will have to know just what you have. CMS tells DAZ this. So an update comes out for some DAZ fetishware, CMS checks your content folder, then your purchas history, then updates it once it has been verified you bought that content at DAZ. Sound like a DRM? And what happens if CMS finds some DAZ content in your folder you have no purches history for? Good luck starting studio again. {yes that part is supasition}

So you go through the purches process and DAZ auto downloads and installs the content for you. But what if you don't run a content folder or CMS? Poser doesn't use a content folder or CMS, so just how are Poser users going to shop at DAZ? I run a minimal content folder because I use carrara, I work with poser format in a poser runtime. Easy solution carrara 8.5 will be pushing carrarests to a studio content folder, say good by to your runtimes.

So being a long time studio user you have your content folder sorted to suit the way you work. With out everything in the right place how is the auto updating going to work. Is it? Or will it reset your content to get everything in the right place to update or install to? remember CMS is not Conten Management system, it is content management service. Meaning DAZ will be managing your content for you. Say good by to your way of organizing a content folder.

So what does this actually mean? If this virtual store is put in place and no other options are offered DAZ can kiss the biggest part of it customers good by.

Studio and DAZ will soon become a closed system. So it will ether be the DAZ way or the highway. As I have said a few times, this isn't DAZ shooting it's self in the foot yet again, this is DAZ wrapping their mouth around the end of a shotgun.

I persoanlly want no part of it. I have uninstalled CMS everytime it has gotten install. I have no use for it. I know where my contetn is, I put it there, I don't need any help thank you very much. If DAZ goes through with this virtual store I as well as a lot of DAZ customers will be leaving DAZ. I wont be buying plugins for studio, I wont be upgrading Carrara, and I wont be buying any more content.

I'd really like assume DAZ isn't foolish enough to do this, but I don't put anything past DAZ. For the first time in 12 years DAZ is updating installers, why? If they weren't a priorety to date why do it now? So older content will work in this new virtual store system.

Now why is a carrarest posting in the studio forum? Because this effects everyone that shops at DAZ, not just carrarests. And before you blow me off, my record is 13/18 for predicting DAZ. Odds any Vegas gambler would jump on.

bm

So there might actually be something to those messages that I get every time I download something from DAZ??

Quote - It's no help that some subjects are simply taboo on the DAZ forum. How do you keep a populess ignorent? By controling the media.

Politics and religion are the forbidden topics. App wars are also forbidden, but that doesn't preclude civil discussions of features. There's certainly no bar to discussing installers - there is indeed an active thread on the subject. > Quote - DAZ has decided to take the entire process out of your hands. Yes, the virtual store. I have only read a thin out line of it and even that scares me.

The way it reads you will have to have CMS installed to actually shop at DAZ. Daz will download and install your purcahes for you. CMS will be used to update installed content.

Do to the sketchy description of this I am making a lot of assumtions; not as many as you may think though.

To update your curant content DAZ will have to know just what you have. CMS tells DAZ this. So an update comes out for some DAZ fetishware, CMS checks your content folder, then your purchas history, then updates it once it has been verified you bought that content at DAZ. Sound like a DRM? And what happens if CMS finds some DAZ content in your folder you have no purches history for? Good luck starting studio again. {yes that part is supasition}

Actually it's all supposition. The update process could be all push, from the store, with the user then choosing what to install. The CMS may be used to avoid bothering users with update notices for things that aren't installed, but it needn't be and we currently don't know how the system is planned to work (still less what will survive the implementation stages). > Quote - So you go through the purches process and DAZ auto downloads and installs the content for you. But what if you don't run a content folder or CMS? Poser doesn't use a content folder or CMS, so just how are Poser users going to shop at DAZ? I run a minimal content folder because I use carrara, I work with poser format in a poser runtime. Easy solution carrara 8.5 will be pushing carrarests to a studio content folder, say good by to your runtimes.

Perhaps, since Randy did say we'd be able to get the files on one machine and transfer to another, non-connected, work machine we will have enough flexibility to avoid any problems here. After all DAZ has said it has no wish to abandon the Poser market - that implies support for Poser format content, organised in Runtime folders. > Quote - So being a long time studio user you have your content folder sorted to suit the way you work. With out everything in the right place how is the auto updating going to work. Is it? Or will it reset your content to get everything in the right place to update or install to? remember CMS is not Conten Management system, it is content management service. Meaning DAZ will be managing your content for you. Say good by to your way of organizing a content folder.

Service means it's a service - a process that runs in the background and communicates with one or more user applications (Carrara and DS, for instance). It doesn't imply anything about what it does, or what they do with the information.

ProPose001 No that's just typical windows BS. I get that for all installers not just DAZ's.

"Actually it's all supposition. The update process could be all push, from the store, with the user then choosing what to install. The CMS may be used to avoid bothering users with update notices for things that aren't installed, but it needn't be and we currently don't know how the system is planned to work (still less what will survive the implementation stages)."

True, I did give fair warning.

You couldn't have a thread on the DAZ forum about the virtual store. You can hardly mention DSF with out it getting deleted. Infer that CMS is more then just your content sorting friend and poof. No there are subjects other then religen, politics, or app wars that can't be discussed on the DAZ forum.

I have no use for CMS, don't need it, don't want it, have no intention of leaving it installed.

I did say I'd like to believe DAZ isn't foolish enough not to offer another option. I like working in runtimes, they are just far more well organized then a studio content folder. And 99% of my content is already  in runtimes.

And yes, it is too early to imply much about what the virtual store may be, which is the perfect time to prevent it form becoming something most people will hate.

Woe, woe, woe... in a little while we shall all be dead. Therefore let us behave as though we were dead already.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

That's... a rotten thing to say? ;)

Sorry Who3d, but this is just a continuation of all the doom and gloom and naysaying carried over from another thread, and all based on sheer specualtion.

Any one from the DAZ forum knows me, I'm the doom sayer, the negative force, the cronic complainer. The banned man Stan.

You know the "Infamy, Infamy, everybodies got it Infamy." bit.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Yeah I know - I was trying (not very well) to carry on the theme by mentioning rotting corpses... :(

 

My excuse is an attempt to "lighten" the tone :)

"Sorry Who3d, but this is just a continuation of all the doom and gloom and naysaying carried over from another thread, and all based on sheer specualtion."

No, this is a topic hit on in another thread that I feel needs to be discused. I'd feel better if I could discuse it elsewhere, but that simply isn't plauseable.

I did say there was a lot of speculation to that, but no, not as much as you would like to think.

I presented my specualtion based on what I know. Richard countered with his. No argument, each are plausable. No one knows for sure.

My car has a spare, I have a plot and stone paid for. It's called being prepared. I'm a pessimist, I always expect the worst, so I am never disapointed ;) I am however pleasently surprised quite often; even by DAZ.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, no big deal. But what if I am right? Are you prepared to do busness with DAZ under the circumstances I describe?

Even if CMS is just this handy little helper that undates your content for you while you work. Why? Do people really spend that much time updating content? In the past month I have update 4 pieces, took me 5 minutes, takes longer for me to smoke a ciggeret. Honestly how much time do you spend; that is whom ever is reading this, updating DAZ content? Is it really enough to warrent having an app running in the background to do it for you?

If the virtual store is a volentary thing, fine, leave it to those that need DAZ to wipe their butts form them. I don't need help dowloading my content. I don't need help installing my content; other then a faster less complex installer. I don't need help finding my content. I've said this enough it aught to be on my tomb stone. I know where my content is because I put it there. 

Even if this is no more then to make it easier for newbies to install and use content, I don't think completely taking it out of their hands is the answer. I think simpler tools and better instructions would be a much better solution to the problem.

 

 

I like zip files also. I hate the way DAZ does it, you have to go on a hunting trip to find your content and place it where you want it. The way I have my content sey up would make some shiver and others quiver. But that is the way I like it. That's why I like Renderosity, ZIP FILES!! If DAZ is going to go to a "Priority System", oh well, I haven't shopped at DAZ lately. Like some of you, I porbably won't go there either.

George Earle Buckle said: "In practical life the wisest and soundest people avoid speculation."

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

You have to speculate to accumulate

Or how about:

1. To meditate on a subject; reflect.

I don't think that wise people avoid thinking upon subjects that may affect them. Indeed, if Buckle has spent more time reflecting on the benefits of, rather than resisting, modernisation he might not have been forced out of "The Times".

 

2. To engage in a course of reasoning often based on inconclusive evidence.

 

I suspect they've FAR prefer to have conclusive evidence to contemplate than inconclusive evidence. However, that isn't available.

Tell that to the hundereds of thousands of scientists that make a living speculating. Tell it to city planers, marketing companies, the goverment. The most intelagent poeple in the world spend most of their time speculating. All the richest do.

I find it quite interesting that most of the people that post on the rendo forum from the DAZ forum are some how affiliated with DAZ. Ether a DAZ rep, or a mod, or a PA.

Now this DAZ virtual store thing I'm quite conserned about. It makes me very aprehensive about my future with, and the future of DAZ. I presented my speculations as to why I'm concerned, is there a problem with that? There is no argument here, there are no points in contetnion. This thread is purly speculatory. I thought I had made that perfectly clear.

This thread is to discuss specualtions about the new virtual store, not for you to berate me for speculating.

 

As I assumed when I started this thread, this forum is not the forum to discuss this, but this subject can't possably be discussed on the forum it needs to be discussed on.

How can DAZ possably know how people feel about something if the topic can't be dicussed on the DAZ forum? It's like telling someone you value their opinon, then gaging them.

The problem is that you are asserting that some of your speculations are fact. No one can reasonably object to your saying "if this is what you are planning, don't forget about this potential problem", or even saying that you are concerned that it may have such-and-such unacceptable consequence. The problem I have with your first post is that it presents as fact things which are not facts, and therefore is likely to cause unwarranted alarm while failing to address what DAZ are really looking at and so failing to have any effect. If you maintain a clear distinction between the very few facts we have and your extrapolations then you may well be able to influence DAZ, and get others to post reasoned posts that will influence DAZ.

Quote - I find it quite interesting that most of the people that post on the rendo forum from the DAZ forum are some how affiliated with DAZ. Ether a DAZ rep, or a mod, or a PA.

Interesting yeah, but not a lot. If you'd let me, I could speculate that the reason for this is that most DAZ forum dwellers are fairly happily dwelling over there - what's their incentive, their REASON, to come and post on the rendo forum about DAZ? If they're here as well, they're probably posting about Renderosity-related stuff. That would bias DAZ forumites in these threads towards those who have a particular interest in, well, DAZ - quite naturally I'd have thought.

Right there I see some value in speculation. Without it, it seems like DAZ is coming here mob-handed. With it it's possible to reason that there's the possibility that no such thing is happening. To dismiss speculation out of hand is not necessarily a good thing.

Personally I'm pretty happy that you've flagged your speculation as speculation and not fact. I hope I have done as well, as clearly. I'm a little dismayed at how quickly tempers seem to rise on either side of a discussion about DAZ/Smith Micro/Renderosity as, IMHO, it really isn't necessary.

Quote - As I assumed when I started this thread, this forum is not the forum to discuss this, but this subject can't possably be discussed on the forum it needs to be discussed on. How can DAZ possably know how people feel about something if the topic can't be dicussed on the DAZ forum?

This I have to disagree with. Quite aside from the thread that Richard mentioned earlier - on the very topic of installers, and including comments about "steamishness" and so on - I have found over the years that critical posts of mine do not tend to vanish overnight. On the whole - aparet from some recently that DAZ have been very unprofessional about - I have found that if a post of mine gets deleted it can be traced back to the way I have worded things. I HAVE had posts removed, and on reflection many of them probably did not truly deserve having the "submit" button pressed in the first place. And provocation is not really a good excuse.

However, when I comport myself with the good grace that my mother raised me to exhibit, I have found myself able to express anything relevant. This has included being somewhat scornful of DAZ on numerous occasions, without anything like a rebuke.

Maybe DAZ just like me though. That's got to be taken into consideration. I am, after all, a lovely bloke :D

Oh Manlystanly, You are so good at knowing what DAZ is doing. I wish you were the one writing the specifications. In fact the discussion I had with the development team last week was in fact that this feature is not fully specified. So don't you worry so much that you ruin your lovely holiday, set back and give some input that could be useful to the development team.

Just how would you like to see the install and update process work. Remember that your use case is just one of many thousands of others. One of our biggest complaints is to make the insatllation of content easier/faster. We also have more users confused on finding the installed content in the applications.

What's the right solution. Put your thinking cap on and help us solve the issue, not rant about how bad it is. By the way it isn't even coded or started at this time. Help us do it right my friend.  :>)

LOL.

Manly - as Richard and others have been pointing out on this and other threads, while no one can ever say "100% never make a mistake", DAZ don't tend to post over topics that are actually reasonable and OT - they delete posts and ban people over their attitude to fellow posters.

I've been sitting here for ages today installing a bunch of stuff from DAZ, and it occurred to me that a better installation strategy could be a huge bonus. For me, based on my current re-installation issues, that better installation strategy would need either zip files (made without errors) or cleverer installers that only ask me stuff once.

If uninstalation is required, I'd love to have it not produce hundreds or thousands of seperate uninstallers or hundreds of links to uninstallers, but one "DAZ Content" uninstaller that keeps it's own database of installed content.

Any uninstallation would seem to suffer, however, if the user moves the content around to organise it better - and this probably links in with DAZ_btfurner's point about ease of locating the product after installation.

If there's one problem that is common with all this content, it is difficulty in finding the content. There appear to be two basic options on this as far as I can see:

1. Have DAZ and their PAs (and Smith Micro and Renderosity and...) organise their content sensibly in the first place. OK, have a "DAZ People" character folder, but under that have "Victora 4" and under that have all her conforming clothing. Don't sort it by product name sometimes, or vendor sometimes, and strangle anyone who introduces the "!" character at the start of any name.

2. Have some kind of "metadata" arrangement, where the underlying data is a complete nightmare but you can get a sorted, organised "view" on the content by using some kind of database. DAZ's CMS is one version of this kind of thing.

The fact that stores have been either unwilling or unable to go route #1 has lead to people re-arranging their content - usually much more than is sensible to be honest, judging by posts - and this basiclaly breaks #2 (or at least simple versions of it) as the metadata doesn't fully understand what's happened to the content.

The problem is not a simple one IMHO, which is probably why DAZ can't tell you what their answer is yet in detail. It's because they don't know. They have to weigh up all the various pros and cons. Being in a position wher eI am installing so much this holiday season, I'm inclined to think that either .zip files or a betetr, more intelligent installation system would be a boon.

One of those is easy to do, but is useless for product removal. The other is going to be very tricky to do without screwing it up - and to be honest, experience of DAZ installers to date doesn't fill me with confidence that DAZ can manage a much more complex arrangement that won't leave some with the shakes.

A superb solution, of course, would also involve other stores - Content Parasite, Rendo, AND the Evil Empire all using the same standard. THAT would be amazing, assuming it avoided all the nasty pitfalls.

Great input thanks!

No problem. It's easy to forget that "installation" - the actual process of getting data onto the hard drive - isn't the only issue here, but also "location location location", the hundreds of uninstall files, how to deal with legacy content, actual removal, finding product... things that become readily apparent when installing a whole bunch of stuff.

Reduced clicks and fewer pages are an obvious, but that're not the whole package. If the CMS weren't a service but operated as part of each program, or relied on a standard service (like a cut-down Microsoft SQL) AND if all the major players (SM, DAZ, Rendo, RDNA) could AGREE on using that standard AND update old products... that could be amazing.

The only positive other idea that comes to mind would have people running and screming for their blog sites to scream "conspiracy" at. Probably me, too! So I'll let that one lie, I think ;)

Honestly this is the first time I'm hearing about CMS (I still slog along with DS3, though I have a copy of 4Free on my system to play with genesis). I guess my question is, if CMS checks back with the Daz store site for meta-data, what happens if it's not on record that I purchased it at the Daz store? Like I have small amount of stuff left over from my old account (chiefly V3 things I never use anymore) before I took a long hiatus, lost my password, and forgot the address I used. I wouldn't want someone thinking I pirated it.

That said, I don't think there's much to worry about. From what I've toyed in DS4, it seems like I can reach my runtimes fine and everything is in the order I left it in, so I guess CMS doesn't forcibly rearrange anything. But since I pretty much use content as-it-installs rather than personally organizing my runtime, I guess I'm not the best candidate to render a guess.

I do agree with who3d though, a more smooth installation process would be nice. I had to format my system about 5 months ago and didn't have a backup of my runtime (a mistake I shant make again, I assure you -.-). Even with AutoInstaller, I STILL haven't fully reinstalled my content because of how long it takes and how many installers I have to go through.

As I said this thread, regarless of how well I may have worded it, or how I could have presented the know information, then my speculation, still would have gotten an immedate deletion, because the subject is taboo on the DAZ forum.

The new virtual store; or what it may be called in the end, will, after a purchase download and install your content for you.

But I read nothing of any other options being offered. So I speculated that there wouldn't be other options. Making DAZ a closed system exclusive to studio users. Even though Carrara 8.5 will be able to use the new file format and work from a content folder. I still want no part of an automated system.

DAZ_Rand in that other thread carried on through several posts about CMS and the new download install system. In fact he was rather adament about how we would like it. Yet never hinted that there may be another option.

CMS regalardless of how innocues it may be, still has the potential to be used as a DRM. And quite easily. As long as CMS is an option I can opt out of, I have no problem with it. But if it is some how turned in to a nacessity to download or use content I will have serious issues with it.

Lets see run though a sanario. Being an obstinet old fart I don't have CMS installed, and the new autodownloadinstall system is in place. And I buy some clothes for V4.

1. Will it work with out CMS?

2. If want to download and install to my V4 runtime in Poser format, will that even be possable with this system? More over wouldn't that mean I would have to go through the same process that I am going through now with these new installers, at check out?

3. Lets say I'm on Hulu watching Grimm and just doing a little shopping during a commercial. Would there be any way to delay the download so I can finish watching my show? And if I can delay it, and have to jump through the typical installer hoops to install to a poser runtime, how is that any different then what I am doing now, other then having to double click the installer in my downloads folder?

4. CMS will be part of an autoupdate program, will there be options to updating content with out CMS? Or say I have CMS installed and I'm on Hulu again but watching once upon a time, and DAZ does an update to somemthing, am I going to have to tolerate my bandwidth being eaten up by an autoupdate or will I be able to tell it just when it can autoupdate?

Warriorpoet2006 as far as I'm aware the CMS as it currently stands doesn't "phone home" at all, it relies entirely on metadata that you install. Smart Content is an excellent idea, but this version has pitfalls mostly caused by most content not having metadata.

Lest I come off too "pro DAZ" - of course, most of the problems that people complain about with their installers are caused either by the disorganisation tha tI believe I have mentioned, and also by the installers themsevles. When content comes in a .zip file it's easier to see where everything is - just open the zip and have a look!

So to a degree the new and enhanced installer systems that DAZ are considering are at least partly to fix problems that they have, themselves, introduced.

Cross posting LOL, ley me get caught up.

"they delete posts and ban people over their attitude to fellow posters."

That too, but not why I was banned, and certainly not the only things DAZ deletes or bans people for.

"Just how would you like to see the install and update process work."

With zip files and better instructions, but that door has already been slamed. I can downlaod a zip file, unzip it, check it, cut paste done. Can't get easier then that. I know this wont work for MAC folk, but this is an option that has already been dismissed and I can't think of anything as easy.

"We also have more users confused on finding the installed content in the applications."

Do you think that may be because the installers have gotten so complex? Or that many of the installers are old and out of date, but people don't realize it and just run through clicking buttons. I persoanlly don't think a fully automated system is the answer. Then you have to look at the change in the name of the content folder, did this do anything aside from confuse people? And the studio content folder it's self is confusing. It's hard to find anything in it even when you know where it should be.

Now I will congratualt DAZ on finally starting to update old installers regarless of the motivation.

who3d with you on the uninstalling. I wish there was an app that I could just point to a cr2 and have it pull it and all it's dependent files out of my runtime.

I work in runtimes. They are organized by figure. I can find my newly installd content easily and with out help. I started running a studio content folder when I started working with optitex clothes. That was they only content in there; and I am so glad optitex dumped installers for zips, makes it so much easier for me. Then Genesis and it's bit of content was added to that. My studio "my library" folder looks like some one just dumped all the folders from a filing cabnet in the middle of the room.  I have a hard time finding anything in it because of the lack of a set orgenisation of folders and the dozens and dozens of empty, go no where folders.

My opinon is the biggest problem with installing and finding content in studio is the studio content folder.

 

"Oh Manlystanly, You are so good at knowing what DAZ is doing."

Well yes, actually I am. Remember my record is 15/18 now. :) Now, knowing that go back and read my first post again, kind of gives you the willies doesn't it.

Warriorpoet2006 don't trip too much on what I've said about CMS. It can't do that; yet. Right now as far as I can tell it is of the most use to people with no orgenizational skills. Or people that just don't want to be bothered organizing their content. As in if I load V4 I know any of the clothes there, are for V4 because V4 has her own folder and the only clothes there are for her.

So how could an installer be easier? double click and it opens, I agree to the EULA, next screen I click no uninstaller, no meta date, installing in poser format, next page I browsr to my runtime. Once that is done  the next installer ask me too agree, I click yes, do I want to install with the previous settings I click yes, and it installs. That is about as simple as it would get, and I would much prefer over having it done for me.

DAZ just seems to have forgotten the KISS princaple.

Quote - So how could an installer be easier? double click and it opens, I agree to the EULA, next screen I click no uninstaller, no meta date, installing in poser format, next page I browsr to my runtime. Once that is done  the next installer ask me too agree, I click yes, do I want to install with the previous settings I click yes, and it installs. That is about as simple as it would get, and I would much prefer over having it done for me. DAZ just seems to have forgotten the KISS princaple.

Agreed in KISS. DAZ don't KISS enough.

On the installer topic - I don't see it as needing that many pages at all, for a number of reasons. One is that everything except the EULA can fit on one "page" - click, click, ignore, Finish kind of thing. The other is... if they're looking at making it easier, we don't REALLY need to read and agree to the EULA after we've already bought something, do we? It's a bit "after the horse has bolted". Anything you have to agree to should come up front, before they take your money. Cut the EULA out of the installers and there's even more effort saved - an installer could be a single page that usually remembers the previous settings :D

I could probably even draw something up, if I had to.

Meanwhile - I guess if you were banned despite your angelic nature, then I seriously wonder why they put up with some people - including, at times, myself. They must just irrationally like us :D

I'll agree on the EULA, there is a site I download 3DS models from, you have to agree to their EULA before you can download. Quite simple really, I click on the freebie I want, the eula pops up, I click agree, and it starts the download.

I have a bad opinion of DAZ, and I share it freely. Which is funny, except for 1 person most of the DAZ folk are good people, it just doesn't come through in the company.

Actually I was banned for starting a thread complaining about the censorship. Although it does look like the forum has relaxed a bit, it was pretty bad there for a while, mostly during my ban. Although I doubt it has changed enough for me to post there like I used to. The world is yeng and yang, up and down, in and out, light and dark, good and evil, can't have one with out the other, except on the DAZ forum ;)

Actually I'm a nice guy with a really bad attitude :lol:

To bfurner--  I'd like to see a lot fewer damn clicks.  The last content I installed was a bunch of morphs for Genesis, and on every damn one, it took something like eight or ten clicks-- including telling it NOT to put an icon on the desktop and NOT to do this and NOT to do that-- that's total crap and shouldn't even be there.  ONE click to start the installer; ONE click to tell it whether I'm installing for Poser or DS, whereupon I get a dialogue box asking for the location; and after selecting the location, ONE click to finish.  That's three clicks, and anything more than three clicks is absurd.  (And I agree that the EULA should be agreed to at time of purchase, not during installation.)

One thing that would be handy is a multi-product installer-- select two or more products to be installed, then go through the above three-click process for all of them.  That would have come in very handy when I was re-installing all those morphs.

Wow, did daz banned Manlystanly ??? 

Daz like only good comments to the forum.

If comments sound to negative, you get banned.

they lose customers, many people disagree and express their opinions

in what they expect from daz.

the best example I can give the clamor for good daz3d pdf software manuals.

people do just not know how to work away with their software.

and that is daz biggest problem!

a mistake that they make and was easy to avoid.

Quote - I'll agree on the EULA, there is a site I download 3DS models from, you have to agree to their EULA before you can download. Quite simple really, I click on the freebie I want, the eula pops up, I click agree, and it starts the download.

I have a bad opinion of DAZ, and I share it freely. Which is funny, except for 1 person most of the DAZ folk are good people, it just doesn't come through in the company.

Actually I was banned for starting a thread complaining about the censorship. Although it does look like the forum has relaxed a bit, it was pretty bad there for a while, mostly during my ban. Although I doubt it has changed enough for me to post there like I used to. The world is yeng and yang, up and down, in and out, light and dark, good and evil, can't have one with out the other, except on the DAZ forum ;)

Actually I'm a nice guy with a really bad attitude :lol:

if it can be some consolation.

many people are blocked without any good reasons on daz the past year.

all the old loyal customers with too much negative comment > banned

Daz is working on it's own demise!

With WM V4 and soon WM M4, people do not need daz anymore.

It's all in the hands of daz to change the handling to his customers.

Do not ignore any negative comments from your users, but learn from it!

customer is king, the one and only golden rule.

"With WM V4 and soon WM M4, people do not need daz anymore."

:lol:

Quote - many people are blocked without any good reasons on daz the past year. all the old loyal customers with too much negative comment > banned

Oh, lord, here we go again...

DAZ has not banned "many" people and it certainly has not banned "all the old loyal customers."  You make it sound as though DAZ has been banning hundreds or thousands of people for no reason at all, and that simply is not true.

The truth is that a FEW people got banned, and all of them got banned for a reason-- and it wasn't merely for making "negative" comments or voicing legitimate complaints.  Several of them were chronic DAZ-bashers who had been causing trouble in the forums for months or even years.  In a real-world store, they would have been kicked out long ago.

Oh, but to hear them tell it, they didn't do anything "wrong."  To hear them tell it, they were loyal, devoted customers who were spending vast amounts of money at DAZ every month.  To hear them tell it, they were only trying to "help" DAZ by doing what they did.

Yeah, right. 

Hey, did you know that prisons are full of innocent people?  Yep, that's right.  Go to any prison and ask around, and you'll find that the vast majority of people in there are innocent.  Just ask them.  They didn't do anything wrong.  They were framed.  The police planted evidence, the prosecutor was out to get them, the jury were either stupid or paid off, and the judge was an old drunk who ruled against them at every turn.

Uh-huh.

Could have said it better, Blondie. 

There's always value in constructive, not destructive criticism. I had my initial complaints about DS4 as well but I voiced them without going off the deep end. I had to change my workflow for making genesis characters, and I had my complaints about how things were unnecessarily rearranged. Also I had issues working with my Gen4 objs and morph loader that's caused me to fall back to DS3. But I stated my issues plainly without insulting or acting crazy. That's what keeps you from getting the banhammer. But I've watched many of these "unfairly banned" people just wail and rant for WEEKS, even running into topics  that had nothing to do with the discussion and derail those with ranting as well... and I thought, "I know what's coming..." For example, this new user was saying how he/she liked the genesis figure and showed what he/she did for the first render and was proud to have done it... and it was turned into a big battlefield and posts were deleted. Did that really need be done to a newbie just getting into 3D?

So I know it's quite a bit of delusion on their part to run on another site and say how they were mistreated and unfairly banned. Please accept some responsibility for your actions.

Quote - Could have said it better, Blondie.

Oh I don't know - I thought she was harsh, yes, but fair.

;)

I meant couldn't... can't type this early. And it won't let me edit my previous post.

Fixed.

Quote - Couldn't have said it better, Blondie. 

There's always value in constructive, not destructive criticism. I had my initial complaints about DS4 as well but I voiced them without going off the deep end. I had to change my workflow for making genesis characters, and I had my complaints about how things were unnecessarily rearranged. Also I had issues working with my Gen4 objs and morph loader that's caused me to fall back to DS3. But I stated my issues plainly without insulting or acting crazy. That's what keeps you from getting the banhammer. But I've watched many of these "unfairly banned" people just wail and rant for WEEKS, even running into topics  that had nothing to do with the discussion and derail those with ranting as well... and I thought, "I know what's coming..." For example, this new user was saying how he/she liked the genesis figure and showed what he/she did for the first render and was proud to have done it... and it was turned into a big battlefield and posts were deleted. Did that really need be done to a newbie just getting into 3D?

So I know it's quite a bit of delusion on their part to run on another site and say how they were mistreated and unfairly banned. Please accept some responsibility for your actions.

Blondie I'll argue that point and you know it. Daz has been deleting and editing and removing threads simple because the subject matter was taboo; and I don't mean politics, religion or app wars.

I got banned for complaining about this censorship.

I know people that have volentarily left the DAZ forums because they couldn't get questions answer because their questions got deleted. Not because they were negative, not because the were bashing DAZ, but because the questions releated to the taboo subjects.

Try to start a thread about this virtual store autodownloadinstall thing and watch it go poof, taboo subject. Mention DSF and watch that post disapear, yet another taboo subject. Infer that CMS is anything other then your little content helper and ......

No, there is far more then bad opinons and DAZ bashing getting deleted. The DAZ forum is "an extention of the DAZ sales and sevice deptmant" just another cog in the DAZ marketing machine. It's no place to discuss serious topics that effect DAZ custmers.

My ban is up and I don't want my privelages back. If I can't speak freely, if I can't bring up importent topics, there is no reason for me to be there.

And I will repeat myself. How do you keep the masses ignorent? By controling the media. If your only sorce of information about DAZ is the DAZ forum, you are blissfully living in ignorence. You know nothing about the virtual store, you know nothing about DSF, and you know dambed little about CMS. And you certainly know nothing about the bad side of DAZ.

baa baaa baaaa

I think there must be two different sets of Forums at Daz3D. I am glad I have never found the one you are describing.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Manley, 

Can I be honest with you? Look up at my previous post and read it. Your posts fell under exactly what I was talking about.  If you posted your complaints constructively, which most of the time you didn't, it wouldn't be that much of an issue and your posts would stand. But your posts turned into rants basically about how genesis doesn't work in Carrara. Well, it's in BETA; they were working on it. They weren't finished, and you went on and on about how it doesn't work like that was all you were getting. Were you patient about it? Not at all. If it didn't work, then it probably would have been best just to say "Ok, let me know when it's out of beta then I'll look at it. Until then let me move on to something else." That would seem like the reasonable thing to do. How many threads did you go into that didn't have anything to do with Carrara and complain about genesis not working in it? There were quite a few. What happened had nothing to do with censorship.

That's what I mean my accepting responsibility for your actions.

Ha, Male_M3dia, you just haven't had enough coffee yet.

Of all the various obnoxious and disruptive behaviors people in forums can engage in, one of the most annoying-- yet hardest to define in a ToS-- is simply being a pest.  Making a request is fine and dandy-- but if you've been told "no" many times, and still insist on making the same request over and over and over, bringing it up again and again even in threads where it's not relevant, then you're not engaging in "constructive criticism"; you're just being a pest.

Real-world stores don't put up with pests.  Try this:  Go to your local supermarket.  Complain about some aspect of the check-out process and demand that it be changed.  You don't like the brand of cash registers the store uses... or you don't like the fact that the clerks use electronic scanners rather than keying in the numbers by hand... or you don't like the color of the store's logo on the bags... or... whatever.  Whatever it is, complain about it and demand that it be changed.  Ask to speak to the store manager.

The first time around, the store manager will listen and nod and explain why things are done the way they are and why the store isn't going to change them.

Refuse to accept that.  Go back again and again, day after day-- or better yet, several times a day-- and complain to anybody and everybody, whether they want to hear it or not.  Pester the clerks.  Pester the other customers.  Pester the guy behind the meat counter.  Pester the stock-boy.  Pester the security guard.

See how long it is before the store manager warns you that if you keep it up, you will no longer be welcome in the store.  Ignore that, and keep it up.  Then see how long it is before you're told to leave and not come back.

DAZ has put up with far more crap in its forums than any real-world store would ever tolerate.  And then, when DAZ finally does become fed up and bans someone, DAZ is accused of "censorship," of violating people's "right" to free speech (even though, on a commercial web site, they have no such "right" to start with), of trying to suppress any and all criticism, and blah-blah-blah.

 Look at the whole .zip file thing.  How many times now, over a period of YEARS, has DAZ said that it WILL NOT switch to using .zip files?  How many times does DAZ have to repeat that?  What part of "NO" don't people understand?

And yet, some people go right on ragging on and on and bloody ON about .zip files.

Well, sorry-- if you've been told "no" over and over and you keep on harping about the same thing, then guess what?  YOU have a problem. 

Maybe you just can't accept that you're in a minority and don't speak for THE MAJORITY!! of customers.  Maybe you think YOUR convenience should take precedence over all other considerations.  Maybe you just can't stand being told "no."  Maybe you're paranoid and terrifed that that nasty old intsaller is "doing things" to your computer behind your back.

Whatever your problem is, accept that it is YOUR problem, and get over it, already.

I mean, hell's bells!!  We all have things we don't like about this or that.  I don't like the fact that my damn online banking service keeps asking for me to answer the "security" questions every time I log in.  I don't like the fact that a lot of online businesses don't take PayPal but instead require me to use my PayPal debit card.  And speaking of that, it pisses me me off that transfers between PayPal and my bank take anywhere from two to four days or more to go through.  Why?  It's a damn electronic transfer; it ought to happen instantly.  As for real-world businesses, I don't like the fact that nearly every store and restaurant insists upon playing crappy "Christmas" music from December 1 until December 26 or later.  I don't like the fact that NONE of the grocery stores near me carries Tony Chachere's Creole Seasoning... or El Guapo Pollo Asado seasoning... or Tabasco Chipotle sauce... or... or... or...

I don't like the fact that the one decent furniture store in my area had to close because the greedy-ass landlord decided to double its rent.  I don't like the fact that my favorite little neighborhood restraurant is closed on Mondays... or that another favorite little restaurant is closed on Tuesdays.  I don't like the fact that the producer of one of my favorite products appears to have gone out of business.  I don't like the fact that off-street parking in my area costs so much that only very well-off people can afford to have cars.  I don't like the fact that the cost of everything (well, almost everything) just keeps going up and up and up. 

Life is full of annoyances.  You just deal with them and find a way to get around them. If you don't-- and if you keep harping on and on and on and bloody ON about one of those annoyances, then.... YOU have a problem.  Whether you want to accept it or not is up to you-- but expecting others to put up endlessly with your ranting and complaining about it is simply not reasonable.

 

As long as daz can take lessons from negative comments to make something positive in the near future. that negative comment was progressive and a new step to improvements it is useful for al daz people.

Quote - As long as daz can take lessons from negative comments to make something positive in the near future. that negative comment was progressive and a new step to improvements it is useful for al daz people.

See, here's the thing about negative comments... No one listens to them. That's where constructive criticism comes in. See if you had health issues related to being overweight, what are you likely to tune out? 1) If I explain some benefits to losing weight with some things you can try to accomplish, or 2) Tell you that you have the issues because you are a fat sow? The problem is that a bunch of people think they are doing #1 by doing #2. Then when they get shut down because of it they complain of not being heard.

"But your posts turned into rants basically about how genesis doesn't work in Carrara."

You obvioucly have me confused with some one else. I've been working with Genesis in the C8.5 beta since it came out. It's always worked fine for me. I had no complaints about how genesis worked. Autofit worked badly in the first build, but I wasn't really working with genesis then so wasn't worried, I knew it would get fixed.

Before that I was beta testing DS4; genesis and autofit  worked well; well most the time lol

"How many threads did you go into that didn't have anything to do with Carrara and complain about genesis not working in it? There were quite a few."

Actually none. I'm certain are confused.

 

Houses don't get fixed with out repeatedly swinging a hammer.

chohole

"Try to start a thread about this virtual store autodownloadinstall thing and watch it go poof, taboo subject. Mention DSF and watch that post disapear, yet another taboo subject. Infer that CMS is anything other then your little content helper and ......"

 

The thing is, I've done more than imply that CMS is something other than "your little content helper". While I see and appreciate the idea of what it is supposed to do, I've been critical of it because the implementation is just wrong. Nasty. I don't like scurrilous services starting up and thinking they own my PC.

I've criticised DAZ binary formats since before DS 1. And i've commented on a steamish content downloader/installer too. I've done those things you tell me will get an instant ban from the forums. And you know what? I've never been banned.

Worse - I am emtional and enthusiastic about my 3D hobby. Sometimes this spills over into what I would consider, in calmer moments, excessively agressive posts. Charged. More rough than blondie and MaleMedia are playing right now, probably. And while I've had the odd quiet word whispered in my ear, I've not once been banned even though i do, at times, tread a fine line between being well behaved and ranting.

So it's very difficult for me to empathise or even understand someone - anyone - who claims "daz banned me for no reason". More often I see "daz banned me for no GOOD reason" - because the poster doesn't consider the reason to be good. Not one of those I've read in recent days has said what they were ACTUALLY banned for, according to what DAZ told them. Only what they have decided must have REALLY been the reason. And it's grating, a bit, because a lot of what you have to say has some validity - but it's getting lost IMHO in what frankly is patently untrue.

I say opatently untrue and feel confident in that because you've painted a very black-and-white picture of "do this and you'll get banned" - and I know that's not the case because I've done it, and I'm not banned. So there's something else going on, and it's not helping your potentially valid concerns to be swimming with definately invalid statements.

 

IMHO. YMMV. PCMCIA.

"I'vedone those things you tell me will get an instant ban from the forums. And you know what? I've never been banned."

You must be misreading, I said deletion, meaning deletion of the post. Or removal of the thread. I never said anything about an instant ban.

 

Edit to add. man can I be thick. Read the date on this thread http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=173246&highlight= that is about 2 week before I got banned. So the carrara 8.5 beta haden't been out 2 week before I couldn't have been making any posts about it. And I was working with soft cloth before that; the improved soft body physics. So I couldn't postably have been posting in any threads about genesis not working in the carrara beta.

Quote - "But your posts turned into rants basically about how genesis doesn't work in Carrara."

You obvioucly have me confused with some one else. I've been working with Genesis in the C8.5 beta since it came out. 

No, I'm not confused. I'm not even confused when you sent me the unsolicited PM on October 6, 2011 complaining about the DSF format, carrara and tickets to the helpdesk and why you don't fill out bug reports using a username "ManStan".

It's that's stuff that we're talking about here. And my response would have been what i've posted above.

Quote - "I've done those things you tell me will get an instant ban from the forums. And you know what? I've never been banned."

You must be misreading, I said deletion, meaning deletion of the post. Or removal of the thread. I never said anything about an instant ban.

Sorry, my apologies :(

 I've done those things you tell me will get a post deleted or removal of the thread - and my posts are still there, and the threads are still there, they haven't been deleted.

I'm pretty sure I've probably done whatever you said got you banned too, without being banned.

Quote - Actually I was banned for starting a thread complaining about the censorship.

Sounds about the kind of thing I'd do immediately after a post got deleted, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to find I've done that. Possibly even in a slightly heated manner.

Context is king - context or details. Because the exact same things you say will bring doom down on anyone's head if they tried it - they happen. Nearly every day, it sometimes seems like. So unless there are exceptional circumstances - like a moderator going rogue (this is the net, that happens) there's something different in the case of people whose posts are vanishing, or who are getting banned from the forum. Something which isn't being relayed in the tales of woe.

But I think I need to get out of here. Because this, already, is too anti-someone for my tastes. In this case it's anti manstanley, but that isn't the point - I can't see that it will reveal anything to anyone, so I'm wasting everyone's breath :(

I was banned on the 5th of october; would you like to see the email? I don't have any tickets with the help desk, never have had any. And my login on the Mantis bug tracker is manstan, always has been, I don't have any others. 

who3d, that was what I was banned for. I thought the post would get me banned when I made it. I knew I was in hot water, I had been threatened  with a ban already. Even though the post it's self wasn't a violation of the letter of the TOS, getting the ban was no surpise.

And if you have asked, mentioned, or started a thread about the virtual store thing, I'd like to see it. Not being a smart arse, it would go a long way to changing my opinon of the DAZ forum. I see it has already slacked up there a bit; which is good.

I mean it would motivate me to see about getting my privelages back. But then there is the problem of convincing Richard and Adam I'd be a good boy, and they know me far to well :lol:

But this thread has lost it's momentum. I started to find out what others though about the news and there doesn't seem to be too many "others" here ;)

Quote - I was banned on the 5th of october; would you like to see the email? I don't have any tickets with the help desk, never have had any. And my login on the Mantis bug tracker is manstan, always has been, I don't have any others. 

As others have found, you can be banned and still PM others. DAZ really needs to fix that when they switch to the new site.

Hmm, I've probably done a few hundered PMs over the corse of my ban. Learned a lot, stuff I never would have found out from the forum. Helped a lot of people, well comparativly, only got a few dozen thank yous for the help. Never denied PMing you. Got no complaints.

 

But that really isn't the point of this thread is it?

there are so many reasons why people get banned.

if you ask to much about complete anatomical meshes on daz forum (gens you know)

banned

people are getting frustrated, because people don't know how to work with the daz software. fully understandable as there is no good pdf manual how you need to work with the daz programs. the beginning stuff is easy and you don't need a manual for how to pose a figure. but once you would start with more novice to master things

Many problems daz could avoid,

by communicate better with the customers, community.

like full manuals ready with the launch of a program, more manuals and info would also fix the problem of unnecessary and abundant false bug reports. Is less useless work for developers and more time they can spend on something new.**
**

There are not enough good references only try and error. How you create your own figures for dazstudio, sculpt, model, rig, animate and render. Where is all that info?

Do you have to search all this in the forum? Where most people also don't know how you do this. That's what people getting frustrated from, poor info how you do it.

3d noobs, newbies would like to do more after a while then only pose and put cloth on a figure but without any good info, tutorials, manuals this is very hard.

interrupt commercial threads, this one i found normal. people shouldn't do this so i feel fine with that block.

but sometimes people sound rude, or negative but they don't mean it in the bad way. They only want to make some things more clear how else it could be.

 

 

Stanley

You said    Quote  "I mean it would motivate me to see about getting my privelages back. But then there is the problem of convincing Richard and Adam I'd be a good boy, and they know me far to well "

I don't think you quite understand the concept of a "Forum Team"  All decsions are made only after a team meeting. And some of those meetings can be quite long and drawn out, I can assure, just as in "real life".

No decision is taken without there having been a majority vote.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

I detest default settings...No matter where I install, or what I download, I make sure it's resting in a folder that I created in a place that I select, hell, I don't even use "My Documents!" That said, I am not a fan of someone else auto-installing in the default directory. If I cannot do a manual install, it WON'T get installed, there are plenty of outlets that will support genesis besides Daz..

BTW, remind me never to cross blondie...EVER..Either online or off!...She actually has me second guessing some recent posts that I've done on another thread, in another unrelated site! X^D

chohole I am well aware of this. Richard and Adam are just well know online freinds of mine on the forum team. I PM with them quite a bit. I also figured you for a no vote.

When I was on the forum; an off the top of my head figure, I'd say I was posted 5 times helping people for every rant. I had just as many thanks DAZ thread as dambed DAZ threads. But no body remembers those. My thanks DAZ threads died the day they were made. My dambed DAZ threads lasted for weeks. I think the problem is people are judging me for the bad while ignoring the good.

takezo, thanks, that is what this thread is suposed to be about. Not so much dambing DAZ for something that may be a year in the making. But giving explanations at to why this system wouldn't work for you or how you may appreciate it.

And I agree. I have been using content for 7 years. I have a vast collection of content sorted to suit me. How is an automated install system going to work with a nonstandard content folder or nonconglomerate runtime/s?

In case some people have missed it there is an updates forum on the DAZ forum now. That is cool in a couple of was.

1. Looks like there is already an alturnative to the CMS autoupdate in place. Now I hope it remains there. I just stumbled over it last night and I see I have most of the stuff that has been updated :D

2. DAZ is updating installers; even though it is with the new ones which are probably the worst ones DAZ has made so far. Just why would I want a desk top and start menu short cut to the content I just installed :?

 

Quote - BTW, remind me never to cross blondie...EVER..Either online or off!...She actually has me second guessing some recent posts that I've done on another thread, in another unrelated site! X^D

Nah, I haven't noticed you ragging on and on the way a few people do.  I'm talking about people who make mulitple posts per day, in several threads, to bitch about something they've already bitched about dozens or scores (or maybe even hundreds) of times.  There's one individual, in particular, who would make a dozen or more posts per day, saying the same thing over and over-- as though sheer repetition would somehow magically bring about the result he wanted.

Take the lack of a manual for DS4.  Now, let me assure you that there is no one-- absolutely NO ONE-- who is more pissed off over the lack of a manual for DS4 than I am.  I think it's stupid, I think it sucks, I think it's lame beyond belief.  I've had to waste a ton of time trying to find out things that I should be able to look up in a few seconds in a manual.  (And I'm just as pissed at Pixologic for not doing a "real" manual for ZBrush 4 like it did for ZBrush 2.  The ZB2 manual was great, and a bunch of damn video tutorials and a wiki are NOT an adequate substitute.)  I spend a good portion of every day cursing DAZ up one side and down the other for not providing a manual. 

Well, so-- should I get into a forum and bitch about it several times a day, day after day?  What good would that do?  Would it somehow magically cause a manual to appear out of thin air?  Would it speed up the process of writing a manual? Would it accompish anything at all, except to clutter up the forum and annoy people?

No.  

So-- there is no manual for DS4.  That sucks, but there it is, and so we just have to muck along as best we can. 

"So-- there is no manual for DS4.  That sucks, but there it is, and so we just have to muck along as best we can. "

Yup, no reason to try to motivate DAZ to do anything about that. That's just the way it is so we'll just have to except it and muttle along.

Blondie, there has to be a point between the extreme case you point out and complete apathy. For me that midpoint is explaining DAZ just isn't known for their documentation. DAZ doesn't like having a bad rep they know how to change it ;)

 

Quote - Yup, no reason to try to motivate DAZ to do anything about that. That's just the way it is so we'll just have to except it and muttle along. Blondie, there has to be a point between the extreme case you point out and complete apathy. For me that midpoint is explaining DAZ just isn't known for their documentation. DAZ doesn't like having a bad rep they know how to change it ;)

Oh, I'm not advocating "apathy" at all.  But with all the complaining that has already been done, DAZ is well aware that failing to produce a manual was a serious mistake-- and if that isn't enough to motivate DAZ to produce one, then endless yapping in the forums won't do it, either.

It's one thing to "remind" DAZ now and then-- but repeatedly asking "Where's the manual?" is another thing entirely.  It's acting like a whiny little kid on a road-trip who asks, every five minutes, "Are we there yet?"  It doesn't make the car go any faster or the journey any shorter; all it does is annoy the hell out of everybody else in the car.  After hours of that-- to say nothing of days-- you want to choke the kid.

A very young child has an excuse for that, because he doesn't understand distances or the time necessary to travel them.  An adult has no excuse for acting like that, and if he does, he's being willfully and deliberately obnoxious-- and deserves to be smacked down for it.

I just looked at my old Carrara 2 manual.  It's 593 pages long, including the index.  Even if you have a team of experienced manual-writers, it takes many months-- probably a year or more-- to produce something like that.  It has to go through several drafts, it has to be tested on people who know nothing about the software and thus can point out confusing parts or missing steps, it has to be revised to correct whatever problems are found, it has to be proofread, etc., etc., etc.

An adult should know that and behave accordingly.  Asking for a status update once every month or two is reasonable.  Yelling "Where's the manual?" every day or so is not.

DAZ is working on doccumentation for DS4.  there is a forum post at the daz forums linking to it.  its a far cry from being done. but its in process.

...sometimes bringing things to light is painful.  But it can also be good. I'd like Daz to be great, however, like the transit commission where I live, I see things that make me question some of the decisions being made. Daz is why I am into 3D CG, I would never have explored the medium if I had to shell out a couple hundred $ or more beforehand to see if I liked it.

However what I once felt was a "freindly" company feels like it is beginning to change.  What was once free will now cost nearly 50USD, yet it still will be in a constant state of Beta development. The Advanced version now lists for almost as much as the standard version of Poser while the new "Pro" version is in the price range of Vue Studio/Poser Pro 2012.

...and the newest version no longer works on older hardware.

Meanwhile the previous version of the Studio application has been pretty much abandoned, even though it still has issues that were supposed to be addressed before the new version was rolled out.

Yes it is a business, however, good business also involves listening to your customer base which I feel didn't happen.

I don't hate Daz or wish them ill, I want them to be a good company which is why sometimes I am critical of moves which I see as "questionable".

---

...forsaken daughter is watching you.

[Intel Xeon 5660 Hyperthreading 6 core CPU, 24GB GSkill Ripjaws 1333 DDR3 Tri Channel RAM, Nvidia Titan-X GPU with 12GB GDDR5 & 3072 cores, 1 x AData 240 GB SSD (boot) + 1 x 2TB HDD, EGVA 850 G5 PSU Antec P-193 with more fans than Justin Bieber.]

...did any of that make sense?

---

...forsaken daughter is watching you.

[Intel Xeon 5660 Hyperthreading 6 core CPU, 24GB GSkill Ripjaws 1333 DDR3 Tri Channel RAM, Nvidia Titan-X GPU with 12GB GDDR5 & 3072 cores, 1 x AData 240 GB SSD (boot) + 1 x 2TB HDD, EGVA 850 G5 PSU Antec P-193 with more fans than Justin Bieber.]

DAZ's site has been down for me that last 24 hours.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

I haven't shopped at Daz lately myself. Sometimes you may need something from Daz for purhcase from Rendo to work. Dropped my Monthly premium membership. It use to be 7.95 mo/ but notice now its 29.95. Artzone is gone. Lost all my posted images. Also when you purchase there should be a readme on the page as Rendo has. Think Daz is slowly slitting their own throat..

Win10  Poser 2014/Poser 11 Daz3D

Quote - I haven't shopped at Daz lately myself. Sometimes you may need something from Daz for purhcase from Rendo to work. Dropped my Monthly premium membership. It use to be 7.95 mo/ but notice now its 29.95. Artzone is gone. Lost all my posted images. Also when you purchase there should be a readme on the page as Rendo has. Think Daz is slowly slitting their own throat..

 

Platinum club membership, on the monthly schedule, is still at $7.95 per month. THe $29.95 that you mention is the one off payment made when you start a new membership subscription

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Yes I did investigate and see. Since I let it lapse for 1 month maybe I'll give them a call and see if I can waive the 29.95..

Have sent them two message and no reply to either one..

Win10  Poser 2014/Poser 11 Daz3D

You do realise that today is Sunday, and 1st Jan at that, so not likely to be anyone around till Monday at the earliest.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

First message sent 11.27...second one 12.27... Wonder if the Help Center is working??

Win10  Poser 2014/Poser 11 Daz3D

On a Sunday, on a Holiday Weekend
:unsure:

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Quote - DAZ is working on doccumentation for DS4.  there is a forum post at the daz forums linking to it.  its a far cry from being done. but its in process.

yeah and the manual will be created by the daz community users :)

LOL

totally wrong

Documentation is being created. The daz forum community have been invited to join a group and possibly add their contribution, is the correct  quote.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

The good news is that we are also working on it internally. So with input from the community experts and our internal team, we can get it done a lot faster.

Quote - The good news is that we are also working on it internally. So with input from the community experts and our internal team, we can get it done a lot faster.

This, IMHO, is actually a very sound idea - often the people creating the software really aren't the best people to have writting the manual. Plus, the heavy users typically know more about how to use the software than the people who make it (unless they also use it a great deal).

Got to admit though, no matter what DAZ does, people will find something to pick at. The last few months on the forums have been very unpleasant with all the complaining, whining, DAZ bashing, and fighting. Either it's a really sad view of the 3D hobbiest micro culture, or a prime example of how the vocal minority can ruin things for the silent majority (I hope it's the latter).

The rest of my post should be read with a soft, and somewhat sad tone, and should in no way be considered a personal attack, but rather an attenpt to reach out to someone.

Manley, I know you have made a lot of positive contributions to the Carrara Community, and it did make me sad when you got banned from DAZ (nobody told me - it was obvious you were gone). But my sadness was not from your being banned, it was because I knew from your increasingly disruptive behaviour you would have to be banned.  You had gone out of control, that was why I was sad. As mentioned above, you were making completely OT posts in threads with your crusade against DAZ, and completely derailing the threads. I'm only pointing this out hoping that maybe you will take a step back, and look at things objectively, and realize how disruptive you had become. Your contributions were valuable, but your disruptions for several weeks before you were banned really overshadowed your contributions. Of course this is just my opinion, and probably no worth a hill of beans.

Flame on.......

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My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

There was something I really loved doing. I loved running the dynamic clothing sims in studio and sending them to carrara for staging. At about the same time we got an update to DS3A, C8.1, and the release of studio 4. Hasn't worked since, to date I have yet been able to find out why it doesn't work any more. No help from DAZ other then the explanation that collada was broke in DS4. Which had nothing to do with my problem. I was quite worked up about it, still get a bit aggrivated just thinking about it.

May never be able to do this again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt_j_TvITD8&list=UUdhRDgjpBQsflNDs3TBV6bQ&index=14&feature=plpp_video

Yes I was hot. yes I was obsessing over it.

But I think I may have worked out an amicable way to be back on the DAZ forum. I'll just post my rants here :lol:

Manley - Thanks, I remember that, it explains a lot. I used to do basically the same with Poser/Transposer/Carrara. I haven't done much with dynamic cloth since Transposer went away. I just decided to wait for cloth in Carrara (though I have played a bit with it in DS - work much better than Poser dynamic cloth). It's been a loooooooooong wait!!

I don't think the staff at DAZ understand how frustrating the long renders in DS are for Carrara users (true for Poser as well). So many things in DS just aren't as easy as in Carrara (lighting and materials come to mind).

This probably won't help your frustration much, but I've worked in various areas of IT for the last 25 years, and this type of senario is actually quite common. Software A is updated, and it breaks the integration with software B. What is amazing is how often this happens when the two programs come from the same company. Were not talking about software in the DS/Carrara price range either. I've seen this with software that cost $5,000 to $10,000 per license. In fact, I got a call from a friend today that just had a $4,000 software package stop working with the change in the year (GPS post processing software for surveying). The company's response ..... "You need to buy a new license." Now hows that for good customer service!

I guess my point here is that though DAZ does do things a bit oddly at times, and they are definitely extremely good at breaking, and poor at fixing the compatibility between their software packages (honestly, I'd have to say they are one of the "best" at it I've seen, I really don't think they understand it isn't good for business). But, they are not alone. There are other companies that charge a small fortune for their software, and you would expect to have full compatibility when they "give" you updates, but fall well short of the mark. In fact, most IT people hate software upgrades because most of the time a software upgrade means hours, days, sometimes weeks fixing what the upgrade broke.

I ususally keep a copy of all versions of all my software for this very reason. Then if an upgrade breakes something, I can at least try to fix it by installing the previous version. I'm also very slow to upgrade, I'd rather know all the possible issues from others experiences, and not from my own (keeps my stress levels much lower). In fact, if an upgrade doesn't offer a must have feature, or fix a problem I've experienced, I usually don't upgrade. The old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" is definitely a good guideline to live by when working with computers.

Again, I know none of this helps your situation now, but if C 8.5 fixes the DS to Carrara issue, it might be good food for thought going forward. Wendy (WendyLovesCats) still uses your workflow, if you haven't already, you might send her a PM and ask how she is doing it (my guess is the she is using the versions that worked for you). If you've tried reinstalling the versions that worked well together and had no luck, you might thry a registry/left behind program bits and pieces cleaner. I can't remember any of the good ones off hand, but if you feel up to trying it out, let me know and I'll get a couple names for you.

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My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Quote - The good news is that we are also working on it internally. So with input from the community experts and our internal team, we can get it done a lot faster.

what about good full tutorials (video vs pdf)

that explain all steps for a scene

• the idea

• the model proces character vs clothes, conformed vs dynamic

• sculpting (zbrush)

• the rig & weight paint

• the animation proces

• the lightning & rendering

that 's what you have to teach people. not how you pose and put clothes on character. (people aren't dumb)

 

Quote - > Quote - The good news is that we are also working on it internally. So with input from the community experts and our internal team, we can get it done a lot faster.

what about good full tutorials (video vs pdf)

that explain all steps for a scene

• the idea

• the model proces character vs clothes, conformed vs dynamic

• sculpting (zbrush)

• the rig & weight paint

• the animation proces

• the lightning & rendering

that 's what you have to teach people. not how you pose and put clothes on character. (people aren't dumb)

 

 

Yes, I agree, these are needed. In fact the team (production and documentation) here at DAZ 3D Met for hours yesterday to outline and begin the process of fully documenting all of these processes.   As these are not easy processes it will take a bit of time, but it is being worked on.

I have a bad experience with similar system that has been around before Daz, that is Vue has to synchronise to Cornucopia3d store every time I start Vue. It takes a frustrating long time to synchronous and it refuses to remember my password. Vue is a great program F**KED up by it's store synchronising system. It just pisses me off to think about it, that I have to go through the same B.S. everytime I have to use Vue. It's a frustrating and depressing experience that takes my love out of Vue. I really hope Daz is not going down that track too.

I truly hate intrusive software protection schemes. They do "keep the honest people honest" (most of the time), but also make things difficult for the honest users, while they are only a minor temporary inconvenience for those that don't pay for software.

Serial numbers, like DAZ does now, I prefer over any other schemes. They keep the vast majority of the "honest people honest", and make installing and using your software a much more pleasant experience!

I wonder how many users, and potential users of Vue have been lost due to e-ons protection schemes, and Cornucopia3D's painfully difficult web store. DAZ and Rendo are sooo much better to buy from.

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My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

...E-On's and Cornucopia's practicies are why I stopped pursuing Vue and still use Bryce and Carrara for terrain generation. As I have an older sytem it is imperitive that I work offline to conserve processing and memory resources.

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...forsaken daughter is watching you.

[Intel Xeon 5660 Hyperthreading 6 core CPU, 24GB GSkill Ripjaws 1333 DDR3 Tri Channel RAM, Nvidia Titan-X GPU with 12GB GDDR5 & 3072 cores, 1 x AData 240 GB SSD (boot) + 1 x 2TB HDD, EGVA 850 G5 PSU Antec P-193 with more fans than Justin Bieber.]