Well all, sorry to come on so strongly about this....

I don't know if any of you have ever noticed, but it seems as though in the galleyies, when I look around at people's work you see images that I'd hate to say this, but they look as though a 8 year old threw them together.  I don't bother commenting on those, I just skip over them.

The thing that blows me away, is sometimes, those images have about a ton of responses with everyone going ooooh and aaaaaahhhhhhh over them. 

I can sometimes spend HOURS putting images together, getting lighting just so, and I am appreciative for the very few 4 or 5 or sometimes less comments that I get.

My point is this, why do people say great work when we probably know that the images really aren't, and just because they contain some nude figure in there for some reason or another?

Okay, I'm done my rant.  I'm just curious to see your thoughts on this -- thanks

 

 

Poser Pro 2012/3DS Max 2013/Adobe Photoshop Elements 10/Zbrush/

PC: HP Z820 Workstation, 3.30 ghz 8 core Intel Processor, 2gig nvidia Quadro, 16 gig of Ram and 2TB Hard Drive.

 

This question has been posted at least a 1000 times over the years.

Simple answer is: If you are nice to me, I'll be nice to you

 

LOL... here we go again... look mate! I try, I really try... but sometimes I just can't get what I want out of Poser, so I post the image anyway... and nope, I don't get that many comments... I wonder why as well.

WOW !!!  TOP NOTCH!!

exquisite use of the default pose and lighting!!

That lavender underwear Looks sublime on v4 and I love the neutral grey background shader!!!

CLASSIC example of minimalist rendering style!!

 

Keep 'em coming!

 

I think part of the idea is to encourage people. It works better than discouraging people. It's inclusive and motivates people to try and learn whether they actually do or not.

Constructive criticism is helpful... divisive comments are not.

 

I thank the good (insert name of favorite diety here) that all I've gotten is help and kind words. I'm pretty sure I would have stopped trying a LONG time ago if people had honestly told me exactly what they thought of my "art".

 

            “So, roll me further B_t__h!”

Could it be possible that someone does something just for the simple pleasure of it?

Does everything have to have serious meaning?

Does every render have to have realism that takes a week to render, then a month to postwork?

Can't someone just render something, share it with friends and not have to suffer all the pangs of being a boring ass serious suffering artist like us dullards in this forum?

Because T H A T was what the early days of Poser were all about... just rendering something and sharing it with friends

Ah!, you have discovered the "hug"club! Some will deny it exist, but when you look at the comments, it is always the same group of people who comment on each other to get high ranks. These people make the whole rating system complete worthless. Someone once dared to give a bad comment on one of them and he got flamed by the whole group, with arguments that were complete irrelevant. Being nice to each other doesn't make a good artist and everyone who has followed a professional art education knows that.

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

There are many reasons for the different "types" of images in the gallery.

You have to keep in mind:

• Do you know how long they have been using Poser? Maybe they are new to poser.
• Some people are not all computer techs that can put together an "awesome" image.
• Art is different to everyone. What you think is not art.. is to others.

Yes this question is asked almost monthly. About the comments, I have seen many people (at the time were friends of mine) leave because of the comments. Silly reason to go, to me anyways. You should make art for yourself not for others. That is what I tell myself when I post. If I start getting upset about comments, that is what I say to myself. Do I like? Yes... that is all that matters.

_____________________
.::That which does not kill us makes us stronger::.
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

This rant was disovered carved into Rock near the Stonehenge Quarry, where pre-druidic, post-neandrathal man debated the merits of the cave paintings of their peers.  People wanted to know, "Why Did Gragmarg's stick figure cyclops solar-head piece get so much attention versus Yooog's Reindeer herd?

Also, this is the same story as Cain versus Abel.

Now everyone count off 90 days until an exact replica of this thread is posted again.

 

 

I've heard of those Bopper -- we have had some in other forums that I attend.  I do like the fun times with everyone though. 

I hear you Kimberly, I post art for myself, and if people comment, its a plus.  But I'm one that even says thank you to everyone, not everyone even does that. 

Oh well, guess I won't know the answer to this one then, but I think Bopper got it -- it's the "Hug Club".

 

 

 

Poser Pro 2012/3DS Max 2013/Adobe Photoshop Elements 10/Zbrush/

PC: HP Z820 Workstation, 3.30 ghz 8 core Intel Processor, 2gig nvidia Quadro, 16 gig of Ram and 2TB Hard Drive.

 

I find Johnny's comments noteworthy - and the comments of all others as well. It has always been true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Today i looked at the picks posted by Kimberly and found many of them good, others not so good. I agree with the "hug club" theory. Some of the images I see with gushing comments are just plain bad. Yet all of the comments are way too generous and touchy-feely. To me it is almost like a cut/paste situation - same stuff from the same few. To me, this is a disservice to the artist. I post a few images now and then, but haven't the talents of others here. I can't learn if no one points out to me that maybe the light is wrong, or the background sucks, or whatever. Constructive criticism is a must for an artist to learn and grow. If our egos are such that we can't take a bit of criticism given in a non-judgmental and considerate way, then this is not where we belong. Why else post? 

 

C~

Well said Charlie! That's true.  Some of them are as you said it, just plain ***bad. ***

But also, like you say it, how do we learn if we don't get criticized for our work as well?  I always welcome constructive comments from anyone, I'm not afraid to take it if something is said harshly about my work, as long as it's said in the right way.

Well on that note, signing off everyone.  Have a great night

 

Poser Pro 2012/3DS Max 2013/Adobe Photoshop Elements 10/Zbrush/

PC: HP Z820 Workstation, 3.30 ghz 8 core Intel Processor, 2gig nvidia Quadro, 16 gig of Ram and 2TB Hard Drive.

 

"....but they look as though a 8 year old threw them together."

An 8 year old can explain their art and what it is. I doubt that would apply to most artists here. So lay off the 8 year olds, OK.

Rags

Some people are begginers -nothing wrong with that- maybe they don't want to learn and improve-some do. Either way it's fun-and that's what its about for most. But for those who want to improve-we need feedback. A different Gallery? There is a WIP and a CRITIQUE gallery that get little use. Me? I'd like to imrove!

I can't copy and paste due to some weird firefox/mozilla rule- so I'll just say, look down a few posts for a thread about Galleries and constructive criticism. I once spent hours putting together-what I thought was a lovely render of Captain Jack on his ship-with extemely careful attention to lighting, mood, texture, etc.  Someone else posted a picture that was clearly default lighting-free of shadows-with Capn Jack floating a few feet in the air-guess which image got deluged with FIVE STARS!

Hence my posting and request for constructive criticism-which I got!

 

 

Quote - Well all, sorry to come on so strongly about this....

I don't know if any of you have ever noticed, but it seems as though in the galleyies, when I look around at people's work you see images that I'd hate to say this, but they look as though a 8 year old threw them together.  I don't bother commenting on those, I just skip over them.

The thing that blows me away, is sometimes, those images have about a ton of responses with everyone going ooooh and aaaaaahhhhhhh over them. 

I can sometimes spend HOURS putting images together, getting lighting just so, and I am appreciative for the very few 4 or 5 or sometimes less comments that I get.

My point is this, why do people say great work when we probably know that the images really aren't, and just because they contain some nude figure in there for some reason or another?

Okay, I'm done my rant.  I'm just curious to see your thoughts on this -- thanks

 

Regardless.

If you don't like what's on the TV then change the channel..... who cares?

If there is a "hig club"... who cares?

If people don't appreciate your wonderfulness... who cares?

If you aren't interested in the content.... who cares?

Constructive criticism can be very helpful. But read back over this thread..... it's about a LOT of things... but constructive criticism certainly isn't one of them.

I'd rather read  "Great image" than the "constructive criticism" displayed here.

 

Done. 

 

            “So, roll me further B_t__h!”

Charlie and Rags

That's the point of my thread!

quote]

I find Johnny's comments noteworthy - and the comments of all others as well. It has always been true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Today i looked at the picks posted by Kimberly and found many of them good, others not so good. I agree with the "hug club" theory. Some of the images I see with gushing comments are just plain bad. Yet all of the comments are way too generous and touchy-feely. To me it is almost like a cut/paste situation - same stuff from the same few. To me, this is a disservice to the artist. I post a few images now and then, but haven't the talents of others here. I can't learn if no one points out to me that maybe the light is wrong, or the background sucks, or whatever. Constructive criticism is a must for an artist to learn and grow. If our egos are such that we can't take a bit of criticism given in a non-judgmental and considerate way, then this is not where we belong. Why else post? 

 

C~

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12474

They created a forum for critiques.

But, folks don't really want critiques. They want to bitch about what Bobby and Susie are doing on the playground.

The galleries are fine

 Coleman

You are right-and wrong. Some do-outside the "hugs" club. Maybe some IN the Hugs club would also like a "Learning Gallery." You clearly don't find anything wrong-but many do. That does not make you wrong- you just have a different opinion.

How about a " Learning Gallery" for those who want to improve? Perhaps the Title scared people off?

I guess I have been the exception to the rule. Almost everything I have posted in the gallery was met with some sort of critique. Mostly from the same people, but always honest critiques of the art I presented. I don't have an ego. I am not hurt if someone gives me an honest answer to my questions. But I think there too, I am the exception. Most people want to receive praise if they do something. Hardly anyone wants to be told the truth.

On other forums that I used to frequent (one of my other hobbies was home recording), the standard was "if you want praise for your work, show it to your mom. If you want the truth, post it here."

I don't see that here in most cases, but that's alright. CG is a different breed.

If I had a nickle for ever time a woman told me to get lost, I could buy Manhattan.

oh good grief ! SSDD.

 

I could give you hardcore, no holds barred critique - about your entire gallery portfolio. I honestly doubt you'd change your approach.

Why?

What I want out of an image is not the same as what anyone else wants from it. We each have our own expectations from what an image should explain to us.

That is the very same way that the 'hugs' folks would react to my hardcore critique of their uploads.

Are we sure we're not searching for some kind of approval here?

Art is about getting a very very unique message along to someone else. Could be to one single person and no one else gets it.

And what's wrong with 'hugs'?

Hugs aren't allowed in art?

Compliments are good. But you will know if your works are top notch if you are getting render requests.

For example I am a big fan of lundqvist and he is consistent with making new artwork almost everyday and he is superb especially with clothes folds on the body. I commented on some of his works asking for a render of my favorite video game and did that twice and I am until now hoping he would make one.

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Quote - What I want out of an image is not the same as what anyone else wants from it. We each have our own expectations from what an image should explain to us.

Bingo!  Exactly why I don't post mine.  They mean something to me, some moment from the past, but I think I'm the only one with that past.  I don't remember being someone else.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

 

Quote - While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Don't rush things, we'll get there.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

 

If someone posts a Poser4 Posette with default lighting... how does it threaten your art?

if others like that Posette render... who f*cking cares?

What is so terrible about it?

Render. Post your stuff. Move on with your life.

Quote - While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Nope... because I'd have to find time, skill and talent rendering in another software rendering package... and I'm way too old for that! 

Quote - > Quote - While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Don't rush things, we'll get there.

The limitations of Poser and Daz Studio makes anyone using them pretty much hobbyists anyway. The real artisans who do all the modeling themselves are over at CGTalk.

Notwithstanding, there's nothing wrong with being a hobbyist and using pre-packaged models and lighting, as long as we don't take ourselves, or our skills, too seriously. (runs for cover) Otherwise we could make M4 look like this guy.

Jonas

     Nearly all of my gallery images are test renders of freebies I've made.  The Galadriel's mirror render doesn't even have a doll -the ewer is suspended in midair- because I don't have a Galadriel face morph, nor quite the right hair or dress.  I was rushing like mad to get the playset done in time for the FaerieWylde twelve days event, so it is what it is.  Ditto for the Imladris lovers' bridge playset render, except it has dolls.  :P

    

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Ideally, any possible critique of your work should already exist in the back of your mind.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

The galleries and the forums are simply like any other "social" interaction. Quite often you get out of it what you put into it. In the "hug club", or whatever you want to call it, people post images, and comment/rate on each others works as a form of social interaction. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to get a lot of comments, you need to participate, and unless you know someone faily well, making true critical comments could very well be met with a less than enthusiastic response.

If you go to a party, or a company picknick, and run into someone you haven't seen for a few years, are you going to say "My gosh, what happened to you, you must have gained 50 pounds, and you look like you need to see a dermatoligist."? Possibly if they were a good friend, and they know your really saying "Hey, you don't look like yourself, whats up?", you could do this. But in most situations we either reserve the right to not mention how they look, or say something like "You're looking good and haven't changed much at all." The same is true here, even very well intentiioned constructive criticism can hurt people, many chose simply not to take the chance.

Plus, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Honestly, one quick look at Picaso's work, and I wonder why he is supposed to be a great artist. Then I think about it (the art work), and realize that no matter how hard I tried, I could never do something comparable. Then I begin to wonder why he would make something so "different". This leads to seeing the turmoil in his art work, and soon I begin to understand his briliance, his inner torment, and that regardless of how great his work is, I really don't like his style.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I really don't feel comfortable giving critical comments on anyones work here, unless they specifically ask for it. Just because an image may not live up to my expectations for what art should be, maybe it is exactly what the artist wanted. I do typically try to post a comment for an image in the gallery of someone who was kind enough to comment on one of my images. For me this can be a bit of work, because I do want to say something relevant and truly positive about the image. But, since I'm not a very prolific image poster at 31 images in almost 9 years, it isn't too hard for me to give comment reciprocity. But, for many, comment reciprocity must be almost a full time job, and if they are willing to, and want to, put so much energy into commenting on images, then why shouldn't they be able to, and in return get "pats on the back" for their images?

I post my images because the only person I can share my renders with in real life is my wife. By posting in my gallery here, I get a bit more unbiased view of my work, some validation that I have done something interesting/actractive, and occasionally some tips or constructive critizism that has helped me to improve. Since I'm not a prolific commentor, I feel like most of the comments I get on my images are probably from people who saw something they liked in the image, and felt it was worth leaving a comment for. I feel this is probably a valid idea, because the images I have posted that I felt were really good, get more views and comments. The images I've posted that I felt were good enough to post, but were missing that litle something extra, didn't get as many views/comments (with the exception of one - for some odd reason). In general, the number of comments/views and image gets helps me to get a general validation how good or bad my renders are.

Bottom line, the galleries, to a large degree, are an interactive social environment. To be popular, you need to work at it like you would in any social environment. If you want to measure how well you are improving your art work, you can get a relative idea about your success by the increase or decrease in the number of views/comments for each image in your gallery, relative to other images in your gallery (keep in mind here that the thumbnail is extremely important to generate interest and demonstrate the quality/style of the full render). If you want constructive criticism, that will be a bit more difficult. Possibly the best way to get CC would be to ask for comments about specific areas you would like to improve in the image.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

No matter how much you comment other artists yourselves, a bad picture will get you less comments than a good picture. So never mind what they say, the relative amount is a pretty good indicator of the merits of your work.

About 8 years olds - I used to think so myself but I'm getting wiser. "Todays anomalies are the seed of tomorrows art" -Diktonius.

So what are the future for Poser art? Certainly not 2D stills a Poser render can never stand up against a real life artist or even a 2D digital artist. You can forget competing with the old masters..

But animation? That is something else. The figures in games and most other animation are lowpoly -a far cry away from Poser quality. The Poser figures are vastly superior. You will be surprised over what dynamic clothing has developed in a few years from now.

And, if you laugh at the skill in the Poser world, remember the content providers..

"Being nice to each other doesn't make a good artist and everyone who has followed a professional art education knows that."

Which accounts for how many people here - probably way less than half. Even adding in the serious amateurs probably nets less than half. What you're left with are people relaxing, enjoying a hobby and yes socializing. In that context, most of the comments are going to be short and generally complimentary and more likely given to friends than strangers, the same as you get when people comment on your bean dip or your new outfit or what you did with the living room. The problem is not that the gallery is somehow broken or riddled with cliques. The problem is in thinking of it as the type of serious professional arena where candid detailed criticism is the norm. It's not. If the name 'gallery' is a problem, call it a 'wall' like they do on Facebook. There's nothing wrong with wanting something more substantial, but the numbers are against it happening often in the Rendo gallery. I'll bet that professional artists have their own hangouts where criticism is given. I doubt that they depend on the comments of the average MOMA or LACMA visitor.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - My point is this, why do people say great work when we probably know that the images really aren't, and just because they contain some nude figure in there for some reason or another?

Because saying "The emperor has no clothes." makes everyone else look stupid for being nice.  The worst thing you can do to a member here is make them feel uncomfortable.  So it is avoided.  There are other sites that will do critiques, rather than accumulate just quantities of one's work.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

intersting subject, i find it very difficult to post images here that i am not 100% happy with,and ive posted a few that id still like to re do but im glad i have because i have got constructive criticism as well as the "hug brigade" which does help  focus your work.

I think you just have to realise that some users here are sometimes casual users and some just dont have what it takes to be a world class artist,some people havent got the time or money to devote to expensive packages or loads of time getting to grip with a package, and yes,some pics do look like an 8yr olds done them but ive never used zbrush before but im sure my first pic would look the same from it :-)

Guess what im trying to say is that this is really a gallery of people with differing levels of talent,time and resources and your comments need to reflect that, I tend to alter the level of criticism with the ability of the artist,a bit like encouraging children,if you say that their first crayon drawing is bland and 2 dimensional they will just jack it in,where as a 16yr old "a" level art class student you would expect to give a more extended critique.

Then theres the content,ive seen loads of artists who just do THE SAME THING all the time,and part of me want to scream out"try something different!" but at the end of the day who am i to tell them what to do? so i just roll my when i see yet another carbon copy image and let them get on with it.

So my conclusion is that i agree with you,but i think that it could be a whole lot worse :-) id rather have a hug than a kicking anyday lol

 

 A cleaved head no longer plots.

http://www.perilous7.moonfruit.com

but I think Bopper got it -- it's the "Hug Club".

and lets not forget the best way to get lots of nice comments ..join the "Jugs club" :)

But thats not a critique, thats human nature and it's been around since cavemen wall-painted boobies on stick-people. So it's always going to attract interest.

 

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

The same is true in real life.

Take the "big" painters

Rubens
Van Gogh
Picasso

All very famous.

Compare the Rubens masterpieces with the "8 year old throw paint around" Picasso masterpieces. 

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

As someone said, "This question has been posted at least a 1000 times over the years"

But if it is so common and returns again and again then it must be a real problem so why not fix it?  Nothing could be easier it has already been done. Leave everything as it is and add one(1) more gallery, that only accept screened submissions. Every time you upload a picture you should have an option to apply to be included in this special gallery. The request are screened by a team of experts. (Working for free of course).

So in this special gallery only the creme de la creme is accepted and you're supposed to accept constructive criticism. If you don't want that carry on as before. Nothing has changed for you.

Quod erat demonstrandum - the problem can easily be remediated.

LOL at jugs club, does that mean you can only be in if you have jugs lol or do man boobs count lmao

 

 A cleaved head no longer plots.

http://www.perilous7.moonfruit.com

i get about 8 comments on a picture. i dont expect any.

i took away the comment box a while ago but put it back

when several people asked me to. i would appreciate

comments that could improve an image but dont get

many if any.

At some point, many of us have come to realize that the rating and comment system here isn't perfect.  Like Ragtop Johnny, I spent a lot of time posing my figures (sometimes as many as seven in a single render) and lighting them, only to get a handful of views and comments at best.  It's not much affirmation for images that often take several days to arrive in their final form.

But that's ok.  If only a few people enjoy what I create, at least those folk do, and I'm happy to share my artistic vision with them.  I don't want critiques.  I'm hard enough on myself . . .

When I was posting I did adopt the following strategy, return the compliment for anyone that comment on my picture + a few personal favorites. But after a while I get tired of it. One can only stand a certain amount of hypocrisy. So I quit. Also it was irritating with the people who obviously was only commenting to get a comment back. Often what they had to say was completely unrelated. So as I said I got fed up with it.

Quote - As someone said, "This question has been posted at least a 1000 times over the years"

But if it is so common and returns again and again then it must be a real problem so why not fix it?  Nothing could be easier it has already been done. Leave everything as it is and add one(1) more gallery, that only accept screened submissions. Every time you upload a picture you should have an option to apply to be included in this special gallery. The request are screened by a team of experts. (Working for free of course).

So in this special gallery only the creme de la creme is accepted and you're supposed to accept constructive criticism. If you don't want that carry on as before. Nothing has changed for you.

Quod erat demonstrandum - the problem can easily be remediated.

I like that idea! That is something that should be considered.  Well thought out.  (On the creme de la creme thing)  Works for me.

 

Poser Pro 2012/3DS Max 2013/Adobe Photoshop Elements 10/Zbrush/

PC: HP Z820 Workstation, 3.30 ghz 8 core Intel Processor, 2gig nvidia Quadro, 16 gig of Ram and 2TB Hard Drive.

 

IIRC, there's a setting on the upload where you can specify if you want critical comments or not.  Apparently it isn't being taken note of.

If the box says "The artist of this image has indicated the following preference for comments:
Both critical and non-critical comments are welcomed."

(off one of mine because I don't mind getting crits)

If you don't want crits then set it to "non critical" or whatever the option is and bingo - problem solved. 

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amen OP, amen

"Works for me"

Yes it is the only possible solution. Even if your work doesn't get accepted you can try again and again -you have something to strive for. Also a system with a special gallery will expose those cut and paste comment people: If you have a large amount of comments but never get picked everyone knows why. The team of experts need to have some common sense though. Not only to chose the very best but occasionally lift out some beginner who  work very hard and is ambitious. But in that case they can state their reasons. It is not hard!

You're right --- wew should suggest this to the Mods here in the forums, maybe Renderosity would be willing to bring this idea on-line, even if for a trial basis.  I like it, I see nothing wrong with something like that.

Like I said myself, I can spend hours piecing together a scene, only to throw it all away because it doesn't look right.  I like my work to be perfect.

I think a suggestion will be emailed at some point today.  Right now having a hard time with magnets -- my first attempt at using them, LOL

 

Poser Pro 2012/3DS Max 2013/Adobe Photoshop Elements 10/Zbrush/

PC: HP Z820 Workstation, 3.30 ghz 8 core Intel Processor, 2gig nvidia Quadro, 16 gig of Ram and 2TB Hard Drive.

 

Meh, I tend to agree with almost everyone here, in one way or another.  There is always going to be a valid point or reason why or why not the gallery is the way it is.  For me, I see both sides, as stated.  Human nature is finicky.  One one hand we have the door holders that do it because it's in there nature, expect nothing in return, and will do it again.  Then we have the ones who hold the door expecting a thank you and might NOT hold a door the next time they have that chance after being 'put off' from the last time.  It's just the way we are.

The 'hug club' as it seems to be refered to, are as stated previously, more of a 'social' type group.  Naturally they will get more of the responses and hit the front page.  That's just how it goes.  The problem, is when an individual will actually confront you (you're not in the hug club) and blame you or ask if YOU were the one that gave them a 'low' rating etc. as it might hurt their chances of getting on the front page (even if it wasn't actually you).  Then start PM'ing people such and such 'did this', or is a warez freek, etc.  THAT, to ME, is when it has gone way beyond acceptable, and hit's back to people purposely intigrating themselves IN a 'hug club' just to stroke their own ego for whatever reason and not really being a friendly hobbiest/social artist.

I myself don't expect a lot of vocal followers, but the ones I do get I cherish.  I do mainly Pin-up styles or sometimes just plain odd stuff, so I expect my art is just more of the 'same stuff' already in abundance out there.  So when a few people decide to leave a comment, I take it as I might have done something to make it stand out.

I don't know.  I'm not very vocal myself, and find it hard to articulate on someones image what I feel in my feeble brain.  So a lot of times I just don't say anything.  Good or bad.  Especially don't leave many critiques, as I am hardly qualified to do so.

 

-Jeremy

Quote -   I'm not very vocal myself, and find it hard to articulate on someones image what I feel in my feeble brain.  So a lot of times I just don't say anything.  Good or bad.  Especially don't leave many critiques, as I am hardly qualified to do so.

Even though you feel that way, your remarks on MY images have certainly encouraged me.  This is a complex issue, for certain!

I write tutorials so as not to appear to be criticizing an individual.

I still get complaints. Some people can't even take implied criticism that their approach is less than it should be to various things.

---

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Quote - I write tutorials so as not to appear to be criticizing an individual.

I still get complaints. Some people can't even take implied criticism that their approach is less than it should be to various things.

Some of us are more teachable than others.  I, for one, have deeply appreciated your help in moving my renders toward realism with respect to light and skin tone.

Now, if I could just FIX that pesky hair!!!

Social clubs?

The comparison with real life social clubs breaks down immediately. There are no social clubs or they play very little role. Its just people who have made mass comments into a kind of system. They hardly know each other.

Quote - I write tutorials so as not to appear to be criticizing an individual.

I still get complaints. Some people can't even take implied criticism that their approach is less than it should be to various things.

BB,

I'm sorry, but anyone who criticizes you (which your responses are 99% shader/lighting/technical related) have no idea what you have proven, time and time again, on your ability for understanding and implimenting real things and solutions for Poser artists.  You have single handedly been someone that is relied upon for understanding the inner workings of Poser and it's material room and lighting.

I for one, would be honored to have my work critiqued in a technical aspect that you can do.  Some of us, like myself, are just winging it and trying to learn on the fly.

I suppose much of what you get from the gallery depends on you hopes and expectations.  I looked at the gallery for a number of years before I posted my first render which was sometime last year.  I used the gallery as a means to see what others were doing, what I liked and and how I could use it in my own renders.  When I did post I was lucky enough to get some comments, some of which were critical but also constructive.  I thanked those individuals as I did appreciate them taking the time.

Some others even added one or two of my renders to their favorites, this could have been in the hope I would do likewise but it might also have been because they liked my render or saw something in it that inspired them. I will never know the real reason but I will happily kid myself that they saw value in my work and it is a nice feeling.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - I'm sorry, but anyone who criticizes you (which your responses are 99% shader/lighting/technical related) have no idea what you have proven, time and time again, on your ability for understanding and implimenting real things and solutions for Poser artists.  You have single handedly been someone that is relied upon for understanding the inner workings of Poser and it's material room and lighting.

I for one, would be honored to have my work critiqued in a technical aspect that you can do.  Some of us, like myself, are just winging it and trying to learn on the fly.

Hehe. Good. Well not everyone (or web site) has that attitude. After Daz opened a Poser forum on their site, I started giving advice. Yes some of it was contradicting things others had read or done. Nothing was nasty, and all of it was totally accurate technical material. None of it was in gallery comments - just forum threads.

I got a note from a mod asking me to be more positive. In other words, don't tell people how to improve unless you associate the comment with praise - or something - I never did figure out what they wanted from me.

I don't have time to be somebody's personal coach and life guide. I just tell you what you did wrong and how to do it the right way.

For this reason, I reverse banned Daz forums - they have lost the benefit of my commentary until February. I will, at that time, consider lifting my ban if I see something other than mindless self congratulation in their forum.

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BB,

Well, in all honest, you have to consider the site.  Lol.  Sorry, but they are entirely 'self' promotional, and your advise can't directly be applied to DS.  Also, anyone like myself who used to upload there, can attest to their gradual decline in not only gallery, but also forum use unless it's DS specific.  Sad, really, as it was a great resource for many years.   Maybe it has picked back up in the last few years after I left, I dunno.

As for YOUR info that most of us appreciate, we know to check your hotspots.  Here and RDNA.

BTW, your 'cloud', or material pack needs to develop soon.  We are waiting patiently, and eager!  Hehe.  ;)  All I can say is, YUM!  Can't wait.

I think you all have missed the point; it's not technical quality that matter to most viewers--it's whether the like the subject matter and that it ressonates with them somehow.  People do this for a hobby and want to share their work with people, many are just happy to share their pictures and don't care if people them.  Look at the stuff people post on Facebook, the images are not great works of art--some are really terrible--but people like them for whatever reason.  Sometimes the more lurid, the more tintilating the more people will like something. . .

My mother used to say, if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all.  If I spend a lot of time working on a picture and someone doesn't like it--I didn't make it for them--I made it for me.  They are not my employer, they are not paying me for an assignment, it is not necessary that everyone likes what I do.  It is hurtful if people disparage your work.  I don't post images for "constructive criticism"--I post them because I want to share and if it happens that some people like what I have done I feel good.

It's sad but true, my earlier images when posted on some sites were very popular and were very simple and not very technically acomplished--those are the images people like best.  I don't understand it--I'd like them to like my current artwork that much, but they don't.  So I do it to please me and don't worry about it.  At times I have lost contests to people who have little technical skills, but have the most lurid, most eye catching content--you figure it out, I can't.

I'd rather have them congratulating each other on their renders than attacking each other.  who cares if ~90% of renders contain technical errors?  if we start demanding too high a standard like CGforum, then sales of poser items would plummet IMVHO, as few would have the courage to post renders, and few would buy or create the items they put in their renders.

I personally have been flamed on an outside gallery and I didn't appreciate it.  All the other viewers gave me good ratings, but this one troll was giving me 1 star or something rediculous.  If I were in graphic design school or working for an agency or something then I would expect "constructive criticism"--but not here.  If people like my pictures they are welcomed to say so, but I don't know what possible good flaming me or anyone else does.  Encouragement makes people keep trying, discouragement makes them give up.  No one ever gets better at anything by giving up.  Do I personally want to look at renders of Victoria with boobs the size of watermelons?  No, but if other people like that sort of thing  I say enjoy, it's just not my cup of tea.

I don't care, and never have cared, if I get positive, negative, constructive, destructive or no comments on my work.

If someone wants to tear into my images, that's cool.  If they want to say nice things, also cool.  Constructive criticism is always welcome but then - maybe I'm weird - a complete and utter hatched job would at least give me a laugh.  Even if nobody posts a damn thing in my comments section, at least I put an image up there and I liked it enough to post it. 

I care even less about comments made by other people to other people's work.

Honestly, is it really worth giving a flying fuck about?  I'm 52 years old and I have more things in my life to get worked up about than a fucking picture.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I understand your point of view SamTherapy, my point is simply that what is good art is very subjective--live and let live.  I went to the National Gallery once, and in a gallery I saw a urinal hanging askew on the wall--that was it--a urinal hung crooked.  I personally don't consider that art, but someone did otherwise it wouldn't have been in a gallery.

Tool_PePe to be honest, I don't think any of the forums are as active as they once were, not only here but on other sites as well.  It is still a resource though, if I can't figure something out most of the time I'll get a reply to a question.   Perhaps in this day and age of social networking people just aren't much into forum correspondence anymore.

Quote -  

Honestly, is it really worth giving a flying fuck about?  I'm 52 years old and I have more things in my life to get worked up about than a fucking picture.

 

A WORLD of THIS.  (I'm 39)

What Sam says.

 

            “So, roll me further B_t__h!”

If you spend a week or more creating a picture and someone comes along and rips it to shreds it can be most annoying.  Surely the artwork people do means something to them--if it mean nothing to anyone why would anyone bother?  It's good that some of you have a very thick skin and nothing phases you--not everyone has that constitution.  Now if someone posts a picture and asks for people to tell them how to make it better its a different story.  Perhaps they could get some tips on lighting or compostion and it would benefit their artwork.  That is entirely different than just dropping in on someone's gallery and saying "Your picture sucks!"  The only motivation someone could have for doing something like that would be to hurt someone's feelings or inspire so sort of response.  So I think it does matter if you treat someone with respect and are sensitive to their feelings.  It's like the people who perpetually come on the forums and say that Poser pictures are not real arfwork, that either a person has model everything in a scene from scratch,use a program that costs thousands of dollars, or its only art if conventional media is used.  These people just come on the forums to pick a fight, they thrive on stirring up controversy and getting people angry.  It really has nothing to do with art or the questions posed.

Come on. Look back at your early renders, if you kept them (I did) and you may just cringe a little (I did).

A lot of the gallery posts that some consider "bad" represent some newbie just being so excited and happy to compose, light and render a scene. Oh man, this is so COOL. I figured it out! Gotta show everyone what I did!

I for one don't want to tell that newbie that the render that made them so happy actually sucks to my jaded eye. I want our hobby to keep attracting new participants and growing. How about, if you just can't say a word in praise with  a straight face, say something encouraging like:

"Isn't this fun? The most rewarding thing is how you get better and better, the more you do it. And as you learn the tricks and techniques, look for ways to make your renders distinctive to you. Good luck!"

I agree with you imax24, that's exactly my point.  When I first started out, I remember I did a very hideous Christmas picture with Posette sitting on Santa's lap and flirting with him while  her annoyed daughter looked on (one of the tacky native Poser kids).  I was so excited about this I sent it in to Daz's monthly galleries.  Now I look at the picture and I gasp and wonder how I ever thought it was good!  If they'd sent me an email saying my picture was horrible and that I need not try for the galleries again I might have given up.  Since then I'd gotten a picture accepted by them, won contests, been published in magazines, had an image included in a calendar, and did a comic book with some other people, so I'm glad I didn't give up.  We've all been there and we need to cut other people some slack.

Quote - I'm 52 years old and I have more things in my life to get worked up about than a fucking picture.

You're not supposed to post those here.  ;)

 

 

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What is mostly posted in the galleries is very much like the photographic equivalent of the snapshot.

Someone mentioned that they're more like Facebook postings than anything else. I agree. If your friend posts a snapshot of your little group at a birthday party, are you going to criticize the photo for failing to make better use of ambient lighting or more appropriate depth of field?

That doesn't mean that professional photographers and aspiring amateurs don't also post masterpieces on Facebook. Or that no one wants useful comments.

My only criticism of the galleries isn't what appears in them. It's not my place to criticize people's choice to post. My problem with the galleries is that the ratings reflect popularity more than anything else.

It's a real problem when three or four people dominate the top 20 because, when that happens, we can never use the ratings system to find any artists we've never seen before. It's been the same few people for months and months without variation. That may be an ego boost for them, but a worthless tool for viewers who want to discover some novelty or variety.

I point out that I'm not saying this out of sour grapes. I've never posted a single image here because I post all my images on my own website. So I'm not competing with anyone or suffer from hurt feelings, etc.

But I am, in a word, bored. So it would be nice if there were some way to look through the galleries for the highest quality postings...

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

But no one has said anything about changing anything about of the current situation. The proposal was to add something, not to take away anything. Comparison with  CG Siciety doesn't hold water as they have only the special gallery and nothing else, that is elitistic. It is interesting to me that the hobbyists and amateurs in some way should be offended over the existence of a special gallery even if it has nothing to to with them. It confirms the maxim, "All dictatorships is bad but the dictatorship of the masses is the worst". Renderosity should cater to all kinds of people, beginners and professional alike. "Love all Serve all".

 

Well, be ready for bitter threads populated by people whose images were rejected by the "special gallery." Your expert judges will be called elitist snobs choosing images that match their personal taste (even if far from the truth). Hell hath no fury like an artist scorned. I'd be wary of this idea if I was the decision-maker at Rendo.

As for no one saying anything about changing the current situation, I thought the thread was started (and many comments posted) in hopes of changing a system that rewards people for putting up renders that some or even many feel don't deserve praise.

I agree that automatic praise doesn't do the poster any favors in terms of his or her learning curve, and renders the rankings meaningless. So get rid of the rankings. They just encourage high-volume posting of renders and high-volume exchanges of automatic praise. 

" get rid of the rankings"

You can be sure of one thing. There will be no change or additions whatsoever. No doubt the Renderosity market place is an important money generator for Bondsware and they afraid of all and anything that can rock the boat.

That's likely true. Why send away 3D hobbyists disillusioned and unhappy? Especially since these are the very 3D hobbyists spending the most money on products. They see the luscious promotional images on product pages and think, "If only I had more stuff in my runtime, I could do renders like that!" It's a natural thought, and one that vendors encourage, I would think.

Of course the render is only half the battle (OK maybe more than half) for such images. Then comes postwork! 

imax24, "Then comes post work!"

Exactly so. If you were an real artist you use the render only to get a head start. But just a little handwork can make a difference.

 “Even the hint of a hand-created element can activate a surface, instill passion and energy into a medium, and reassure the recipient that human understanding and insight are the foundation for the message.” Josh Chen

From Fingerprint: The Art of Using Hand-Made Elements in Graphic Design, by Josh Chen

For example, I can only spend so much time getting the lighting "just so" on every element in the scene. At some point I have to say "close enough" and do some area brightness and contrast tweaking in PhotoShop. Whether that makes me less a "pure 3D artist," I don't care. I just care about the end result. If I ever sell anything in the MP, my promo images will never say "No Postwork." :laugh:

 

You are quite right. Better to try to become a content deliver. At least they are professionals.

I've been critted by the best (CGSociety) so pretty much anything here is going to be a non issue for me.  Anyone wants to crit an image, go for it.  You hereby have my express permission to give me the whole unvarnished truth and I promise not to stalk you so I can sell your organs to the body farms

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Thats nice to know Frank. In fact, in all the years I have been at CG Society I never ever have noticed anyone complain or crank about being rejected for the gallery.

Vintorix, in case you want to see some

Google this: cg society gallery rejection

Example quote snippet:

Quote - I honestly thought this was the best work I've ever done so far..but I got my first rejection email from CGSociety

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Two MIG-19s took off from North Viet Nam headed for trouble.

The one radio'd to the other"Hey, your plane looks messed up. Like it's made of plastic. Like a Poser render." The other guy took offense, but before he could reply his plane blew up because the whole illusion just fell apart.

Nobody goes into combat in a plastic plane.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

 bagginsbill,

I googled your suggestion and the harvest was rather slim. The first hit was about a rejection for a rule-not becase low standard. In any case it is extremly rare. Perhaps these guys at CG Society are better people that us?

?

"your plane looks messed up. Like it's made of plastic. Like a Poser render"

That was funny. In any case as I have said before, Poser has a great future in animation.

 (Edit: Many guys at CG Society goes to war with only a pen and a digital tablet)

 

 

Quote -  In any case it is extremly rare.

Yes it is. They don't complain too much at all, really.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I posted this in another thread, but I'll share it here as well:

 

 

Someone who turns out as having the disposition of an anally retentive internet troll in the galleries mentioned having just gotten PP12, so trying to be helpful I mentioned them looking up BB work and Snarly's script so they could make the most of their new software.  The result: 3 angry letters in my inbox.  The person could have just accepted the comments for what they were or ignored them, but the jerk just had to go off because I didn't post a generic "fantastic" comment and five star it.  What a waste of bandwidth the person is. 

If you can't accept comments either don't leave your gallery open for comments or don't post things to the galleries.

Now I need to make an unartistic commentary about anally retentive internet trolls, in general of course, and post it to the galleries.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I like reading coments like these. I've never posted any of

my work because it would'nt get posted anyway cause it's

bloody, nasty full of monsters & chicks and other strange stuff,

but when you get down to it art is art - different in everybody's

eyes. I enjoy looking at all poser art-don't care if it's bad or good

cause someone took their time to do it.

Beware-The Smoking Man Still Lives!

I don't call myself an artist. I do pictures. I posted a couple here when I first started. Pretty much the kind of stuff the complaints were about. Just testing the waters  and learning the software. Most of my work goes on Deviantart, and people there seem to like it.  It fits a specific niche, it wouldn't fit in here,and not a lot of people do what I do. I've gotten better, and and still am working on it. But I have no intention of becoming an artist. I just make pictures. Thin skinned? Had people try to kill me at work. Comments off the inernet? Feel free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote - That's likely true. Why send away 3D hobbyists disillusioned and unhappy? Especially since these are the very 3D hobbyists spending the most money on products. They see the luscious promotional images on product pages and think, "If only I had more stuff in my runtime, I could do renders like that!" It's a natural thought, and one that vendors encourage, I would think.

Of course the render is only half the battle (OK maybe more than half) for such images. Then comes postwork! 

No doubt you're right here.

I use the galleries as resources when I'm product hunting.

If someone's product looks good even in a crappy render, I'm always impressed. The wide variety of abilities in rendering (and postwork) really does put those products through their paces. Promo images are rarely sufficient.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

The problem with this thinking, the more technical artist will take a given content and modify it to improve it's original texture through the material room.  Thus you see a mediocre object with an impressive overcoat, you buy it, then find out that the artist had freshly given it a new coat of paint, so to speak. 

But I do agree, promos have become too specialized, WYSIWYG but only when rendered with such and such lights and such and such app.

I'm a little surprised that places like Renderosity and DAZ don't have pre-fab lighting, backgrounds/scenes, and render settings that most promos had to be made in so we'd have some standardization.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Well, the glitzy promos attract the newcomers, no doubt. It did me. But after awhile you learn to look past it.

I see a character, think, "damn, she's gaw-geous!" and then filter out the glamorous hair, sexy outfit, hot pose, flattering lights and professional postwork (none of which come with the purchase) to try to see what's really there. Mostly I look for facial features that make her special. As for the body shape, I usually change it to taste anyway.

But I wonder how many newbies buy a character, apply the morphs and mats and think: "Whoa. Where's the hot, radiant chick I saw in the promos? I still just have a bald girl with dull, flat skin standing like a scarecrow." I can remember that feeling, before I figured out what exactly goes into making her look the way she did in the promos.

 BB! haha! I agree- but it seems that many prefer the plastic airplane look-I'm one of those who does not-hence my fanatical obsession with learning from you-and experimenting on my own. Perhaps we need a gallery focussing on making lighting and materials more realistic? It must be obsession- I have Lightwave-and CAN get more realism out of it than I can Poser- but still I hack away at Poser! Of course I could spend a ton of money-and buy Maxwell or one of the other unbiased-less biased renderers-or spend eons making renders with Lux Render.

I've run into the same-so I never comment on plastic appearance-or make comments like great Poser4 render! I might even say P3- but we did not have transmapping back then- so hair looked like that seen on a Mannequin (Spelling?)

Quote - Two MIG-19s took off from North Viet Nam headed for trouble.

The one radio'd to the other"Hey, your plane looks messed up. Like it's made of plastic. Like a Poser render." The other guy took offense, but before he could reply his plane blew up because the whole illusion just fell apart.

Nobody goes into combat in a plastic plane.

Ragtopjohnny

I understand what you are saying and here are my thoughts on the gallery.  You will very rarely get critical comments there.  I use the gallery as a place to put up images that my friends want to see.  That is the only thing I use it for.  The comments I look for are in the emails they send me, not in the comment section of the gallery.

If I really want help with critical comments I will post a link to the image (or the image itself) here, in the forums.  There are wonderful people here who will help you with very honest, very critical, very helpful comments that you are not likely to get in the gallery area.

It also depends on what you are trying to do with Poser.  This forum is fabulous for learning how to create realistic images using the new tools we have in Poser Pro 2012.  But, some people are not interested in creating realistic images.  Personally (and this is just me) I never use Poser to create realistic images. I have a great camera and Photoshop for that.

I use poser to shortcut my complete lack of artistic talent.  I cannot create anything on a canvas with paints and brushes that I would enjoy seeing (the way my wife can) and that is very frustrating.  Poser is a great way for me to create images that make me happy, even though deep down inside I laugh and consider it cheating.

I also come to this forum to learn how to create realistic images with Poser, because this is a technical skill I want to learn even if I never use it for posted images. I have learned more here about creating realistic images (shaders, nodes, sss, etc) than I have ever learned (or could ever learn) from reading the books. This is a great place to learn.

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Quote - I'm a little surprised that places like Renderosity and DAZ don't have pre-fab lighting, backgrounds/scenes, and render settings that most promos had to be made in so we'd have some standardization.

It's a good idea.  

When I make promos I render with white lights on a plain background, unless I'm showing a specific aspect which needs to be seen at lower light levels and in a scene.  Even then, I try to keep it as basic as possible.

With my stuff, what you see is really what you get.  Always.  I may not be the best or most prolific but I am scrupulously honest. 

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I have noticed a tendency by most commenters to avoid anything remotely negative. And there's an awful lot of 'gushers' around. But that's people. They might not think all that highly of one of your pictures - but they're not going to upset you and hurt your feelings by posting a lukewarm comment.

Wow even if written in stone it seems this is still a "HOT" topic.    I always try to post the first thing that comes to mind and have gotten queries as to exactly what I meant.   If I have something negative to say about a render then that's what site mail is for.  I for one am not an art critique but can tell the difference between the differant varients of a certain aircraft  which I may comment on via site mail.  

 

Some of the best artists (and they are artists!) always have something nice to say.  There is nothing wrong with that!   There is a ton of art on this site that makes me look at my stuff and ask how I can improve it.

Negative comments are alright with me if the critic can spell ot out exactly what is needed.  I've seen comments such as "the sails are all wrong and you have the wrong rigging".  no explanation to the person doing the render as to eaxctly what he did wrong.    If you don't like the lighting then at least take the time to explain what you meant.  

 

meatSimI'm so glad you liked my gallery image.

Thanks for the comments.

Love esther

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