RobynsVeil opened this issue on Feb 28, 2012 · 218 posts
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 8:47 PM
This might seem very, very OT to those who haven't upgraded to the latest flavours of Poser, but the money I've saved not buying stuff at either here or Daz or elsewhere has allowed me to be in the market for either a Samsung Galaxy Tab (10.1 in, 32 gig, WiFi) or the Asus Transformer Prime (10.1 in, 32gig, WiFi). Such was the nature of my spending here and elsewhere. And much as I'd like to support our vendors, until they start producing for Poser 9 / PP 2012, I'm pretty much not interested. The rest is same-ol', same-ol'...
Can anyone point me to a V4-WM product anywhere that takes full advantage of weight-mapping? as in: weight-mapped clothing for a weight-mapped figure? ?
IOW: what do we need to do to start making Poser 9 / PP2012 really start happening?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 8:57 PM
Meant to add: I've already purchased some of those products that take advantage of the new Poser functionality, like Danae's Dublin and Blackhearted's Anastasia... but there's so much out there for V4 still being produced purely for the non-weightmapped V4.
Why?
Don't people know V4-WM is out there (and been there for a while now??)... and what about PoserPlace Outfitter? These are incredible products, HUGE opportunities for vendors... no one knows about them?
Why?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Glitterati3D posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 9:00 PM
Quote - Meant to add: I've already purchased some of those products that take advantage of the new Poser functionality, like Danae's Dublin and Blackhearted's Anastasia... but there's so much out there for V4 still being produced purely for the non-weightmapped V4.
Why?
Don't people know V4-WM is out there (and been there for a while now??)... and what about PoserPlace Outfitter? These are incredible products, HUGE opportunities for vendors... no one knows about them?
Why?
Because one has to market it.
I don't care if it's free, if you don't market it, people de-value it.
If YOU believe it doesn't have enough value to market, neither does your user base.
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 9:05 PM
Point well taken. V4-Wm and PP Outfitter did get a lot of support in that regard from RDNA: they gave it proper product status and newsletter support so DNA customers did see that and are happily using it, I'm assuming.
I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Glitterati3D posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 9:12 PM
Quote - Point well taken. V4-Wm and PP Outfitter did get a lot of support in that regard from RDNA: they gave it proper product status and newsletter support so DNA customers did see that and are happily using it, I'm assuming.
I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.
It boils down to the value the creator places on it.
If the creator can't be bothered with anything but "plop, here it is" then, she/he places no value on it, so why would the user?
Marketing is FAR more than a newsletter. It's about maintaining GOOD relationships with your supporters, your cheerleaders and NEW and important outlets.
You must ALWAYS be looking for marketing opportunities.
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 9:37 PM
Quote - It boils down to the value the creator places on it. If the creator can't be bothered with anything but "plop, here it is" then, she/he places no value on it, so why would the user?
Marketing is FAR more than a newsletter. It's about maintaining GOOD relationships with your supporters, your cheerleaders and NEW and important outlets.
You must ALWAYS be looking for marketing opportunities.
You're right: it's just that I tend look beyond the creator's abilitites in marketing (who may or may not have good marketing sense) to the value of the product itself. That's what got the Antonia Polygon ball rolling for me. ODF was finished with his bit, but the marketing was still left to do. Whether we did a good job with it remains to be seen: I'm a nurse, not a marketing person.
These are amazing products. They deserve a lot more attention than they are getting. Yes, marketing is at fault. And that is going to be addressed now.
Thanks for your ideas, Traci. Will endeavour to address them straight-away.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Winterclaw posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 10:22 PM
Quote -
IOW: what do we need to do to start making Poser 9 / PP2012 really start happening?
Weight mapped breast handles? Weight mapped temples? Weight mapped swords?
My mind in the gutter aside I would like to think that:
1. V4-WM is still pretty new. I haven't even bothered to get it yet. So the number of people to want items for it might be limited.
3. It's not backwards compatible to previous versions. Not everyone uses PP12 so you'd limit your customer base.
4. People are lazy and won't do extra work if they don't think it's worth their time and/or effort. Plus it's a new skillset to practice, learn, and get comfortable with. If I were selling something, I'd want it to be right enough that I wouldn't feel bad if someone bought the item (I've got a perpetual WIP dress, just ask the chat regulars). They also might have deadlines or a certain amount of time they want to work on a single product and this new feature might either take too long to add or make them release things slower than they'd like.
5. Some people prefer dynamics, which don't really care about WMed V4.
6. There is no 6.
7. You never expect the spanish inquisition!
8. I forgot to mention he fact we are waiting for V4-WMed now with Jiggle Handles!
Also, what about WMed hair sets? Some hairs are figures and not props.
WARK!
Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.
(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 10:27 PM
Quote - Also, what about WMed hair sets? Some hairs are figures and not props.
Copy Joint Zones From...
Thanks for your other points, WC: all challenges to overcome.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
meatSim posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 10:36 PM
So I guess from a vendor standpoint some possible concerns are:
How big is the poser9/2012 market ? and how much lift will the sales get from including a WM option?
How much extra time will it take to not just convert the item to WM but to do it to a high enough standard. How much of a learning curve is there to feel 'in control' of the results.
I think some of these are unknowns to a lot of vendors and users alike. There is also the 'V4 already had one or two or several of everything' problem that I think is already limiting production of new items for her so it will also limit support for WM until the WM market is big enough to bring in the cash flow on its own.
For myself I'm 'on my way' to becoming a vendor or at least a freebie contributor and it is my intention to put out only poser 9+ content
meatSim posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 10:39 PM
Does there need to be a bigger effort to demonstrate how V4WM or Antonia WM + Outfitter can fit into a content creation workflow to make adding WM support to forthcoming sets easier, and therefore a more attractive option from a 'hours spent' vs 'sales gained' point of view
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 10:44 PM
Quote - Does there need to be a bigger effort to demonstrate how V4WM or Antonia WM + Outfitter can fit into a content creation workflow to make adding WM support to forthcoming sets easier, and therefore a more attractive option from a 'hours spent' vs 'sales gained' point of view
Excellent point! A video! The process to convert existing clothing to WM using Poser-Place Outfitter takes literally seconds. Once you've made your clothing item, adding wm capability is a matter of another minute or two, not hours of work. And now you've captured the new Poser users market.
And you bring up another concept: vendor support needs to be a lot more visible, available, accessible.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
JAFO posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 10:49 PM
OT reply to an OT subject
wait till you see what happens to antonia next...
Y'all have a great day.
meatSim posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 11:03 PM
thats not a threat is it? 
Quote - OT reply to an OT subject
wait till you see what happens to antonia next...
basicwiz posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 11:12 PM
Robyn, I feel your pain.
Still, I think we need to put what has happened into perspective to really understand why things have played out as they have.
The early adopters are always about a year ahead of the great unwashed masses for any product/technology/whatever. The disappointment with Genesis did, indeed, prod a lot of people to action. The problem was, none of them had a clear plan of what to do or how to do it.
While a lack of marketing is certainly part of the situation, I don't think that can explain everything.
Antonia - I know you love her, Robyn, but I'm with the group that does not. I think, at the heart of the problem is the lack of an "official" morph set for her that vendors can use as their base is a deal breaker. I've posted before, the main morph set out there does not create the sort of changes I want in a character, so for me, she's not going to work. There are very few characters/textures out there for her, and many of us do not have the time/patience/abilities to create our own from scratch.
GND Anastasia is a beautiful figure that has actually proven someone with real skills can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. However, since her initial release she has gone "THUD" due to lack of any of the promised products appearing for her. I'm not into girls wearing leather bras.
My own finger of blame for the above failures points at the WM version of V4. To me, this was the game changer. A figure for which I already had everything I needed has arrived with improved performance, and the need for me to buy absolutely NOTHING to make her ready to produce images today is just too seductive! Let's be frank... in the contest between the three figures, I can understand why the first two have been dropped like hot potatoes. No support, no support, vs no support needed!
And as far as new products for V4-WM... just what is it you are wanting? What can be done in clothing that the Outfitter program does not do to existing clothing? This, to me, was the beauty of the project: to make a popular figure into her own successor, thus saving the costs of having to re-tool. Somehow I don't think a new weight mapped bra is going to behave better than a converted one. Perhaps I am wrong, but someone is going to have to post some images that clearly demonstrate the difference to me.
While I would still support Antonia (if the mess with lack of standards and the lack of meaningful content for her can be cleared up,) I don't see much more being done with her. The development team has bled their souls into her, and no one else seems interested. It's sad, but that is how it appears to me.
I will support GND because I think she is a viable character. But again, the stuff to make her work has to be there. For me, both Antonia and GND have missed their windows of opportunity in terms of being "the next great figure." V4-WM is already there. I don't think you can equate a lack of new products for the WM version with a lack of acceptance. I have no idea how many times the WM kit has been downloaded for Poser Place, but I'm willing to bet it is a significant number.
Finally, as to creating products that exploit Poser 9/PP2012's abilities, it might interest you to know that I've got a male character ready for market that will be P9/2012 ONLY! The shaders have GC and SSS built in, and the creating involved scaling (which finally works right!) It takes a while for content creators to learn the ropes of the new technologies, and yes... it's been about a year for me to get my head around enough things to be able to do what I've finally done. (You were very kind in your comments about him when I posted my WIP thread a few days back.) He is truly a P9/PP2012 character from the ground up.
Patience. The genie is out of the bottle. It takes time to formulate wishes that will be really productive.
Please don't take anything I've said as being dismissive of the work people have put into these projects. I think it is just a shame the way the timing for the various projects has played out.
$.02
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 11:13 PM
Quote - OT reply to an OT subject
wait till you see what happens to antonia next...
Sounds interesting. 
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
RobynsVeil posted Tue, 28 February 2012 at 11:33 PM
My comments - probably a bit inflammatory, now that I think on it - were based on going through the marketplace and seeing so little apparent interest by vendors in what the new figures have to offer. true, Antonia is not everyone's cup of tea: I prefer real to barbie-doll, but that doesn't make my choice (or perception of real vs barbie-doll, for that matter) any more or less valid than anyone else's.
But my remarks were about V4-Wm and Outfitter, really.
When Gene came out, there seemed to be a great deal of indecision and unrest and uncertainty and subsequent inactivity amongst Poser vendors in general. people changed camps, loyalties were challenged: it was quite tumultuous. Now, I'm getting this great sense of apathy.
V4-Wm and Outfitter really aren't that hard to use. Quick and easy, and you have superior results.
So, i still don't get it. Wark, you haven't bothered to even download it. Why? I'm not accusing you or anything: just trying to figure out what was the lack of appeal.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
JAFO posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 12:45 AM
Antonia is beau-tee-full if you rip off the texture and look at her from a mesh/rigging perspective ,she has just the right balance of form and function with plenty of room for expansion... we cant all expect her to come out of the can being everything we ever wanted, we all have different taste's...shes a platform that can be shaped into anything you ever dreamed of....
"its better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness":have no idea who said that but ill just throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks...
:O)
Y'all have a great day.
LaurieA posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 12:57 AM
Quote - I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.
Lord no! They'll probably have to pry Wings out of my cold, dead hands...lol. Same with Blender. And Inkscape. And Scribus....
Some of my favorite programs are free, open source. Right now I'm setting up XBMC (also free) on my spare computer and make mysef a nice media center. Priceless ;).
I really don't think I wanna part with my copy of EZ Skin or Pose2Lux :P
Laurie
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 1:29 AM
I tried V4-WM. It was a huge improvement over V4 in many ways, and in some ways, not so much.
The recent addition of a batch of V4 improving morphs has made the the non-weight-mapped V4 quite a viable contender. Bends are vastly better, and there's no need to convert clothing.
V4-WM, unfortunately, came out about a month or so too late (after all those lovely V4 fixes). Plus the added step of converting the few conformers I do use makes me less inclined to try. I'd use her, but I'd still have to fix up her some of her joints in post or with morphs. So why bother?
Edit to add:
I guess my point is that I don't think my apathy is uncommon among buyers in the marketplace. And if vendors do not detect an enthusiastic market, they're not going to invest the time into making products for it.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 1:39 AM
Quote - V4-WM, unfortunately, came out about a month or so too late (after all those lovely V4 fixes). Plus the added step of converting the few conformers I do use makes me less inclined to try. I'd use her, but I'd still have to fix up her some of her joints in post or with morphs. So why bother?
Which joints?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
heddheld posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:12 AM
Just give it time RV, only guessing but I think the number of people who have pro/12 is quite small, but it will grow and so will the demand
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:33 AM
I guess I'm impatient, Hedd... this is a software-dependent product, so it only seems reasonable that the number of people jumping on this is going to be based on P9/PP2012 sales.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:43 AM
V4-WM on the left in this case. The elbwo lacks an olecranon, a "funny bone" as it were, and instead looks like a bent swimming pool noodle. V4's arms are barely long enough as it is, but V4-WM's upper arms are quite a bit shorter.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:53 AM
True enough, the armpits and shoulders are much improved, as are the hips. The neck bend in the crease of the bend on the left side (on the model on the right) is far better, but the big bulge is strange. The knees are better in some respects, worse in others.
In short, better is some ways, worse in others. Still needs to be fixed in post or via morphs. Hence, may not be worth the effort if clothes have to be converted. Depends on which problems bug you and which don't, I guess.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:55 AM
You work with the mesh you're given. People chose V4 as their favourite girl. Unfortunately, her mesh is not that great. Poser Place tried to make the V4-affectionados happy: in hindsight, this talent would have been better spent on a mesh that actually bent well.
Can't make everyone happy... people are always going to find something.
So, the reason - according to you, then, Moriador - for this V4-WM version not taking off is because of the issues you've raised?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:10 AM
I'd say this version may not be taking off because it's not close enough to perfect.
In the context of a whole bunch of products, such as the V4 perfect line, being released which address a number of the most obvious issues with V4, the improvements that V4-WM provide may not be enough of an improvement for people to make the switch.
I'm sorry that I don't find V4-WM to be the perfect solution and that you feel that the time spent on the project "would have been better spent on a mesh that actually bent well," though, to be sure, you could be right. Depends on what you mean by "better spent."
Antonia is no doubt a better mesh, (though, I think she may have the same elbow issues as V4-WM) but I don't like the morphs that are available for her, so I'm waiting to see if ones which are more suitable to my taste appear or not. I'm not passing judgment, and I mean nothing personal. It's just how it is.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:24 AM
Just to add, as others have already no doubt suggested, it's more likely that a whole bunch of products that use weight mapping and SSS and other advancements that can be used only in P9 and PP2012 are not appearing in the MP because relatively few people have upgraded to this software.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:42 AM
By"better spent" I meant: the rigger who fought with this impossible mesh could have been working on something that would have advanced his own projects instead of giving of his time and talent to create a re-rigged, weight-mapped figure mod to offer to the community for free, a community who were begging for this figure and now seem apathetic about her. And critiques like yours would have been much more useful during the debugging phase of this project. None of us on the project ever thought to contort V4 into that particular position. I would have never thought that particular pose was so popular or so critical to success.
Have you logged a bug report about this issue at Poser Place?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:07 AM
As previously mentioned, the team had to work with a mesh that was not of our making, plus there was a hell of a lot of restrictions put on it from DAZ.
Things that could have been done were not allowed due to those restrictions.
Just because there are not mass amounts of renders does not mean that there are not a lot of users using V4WM.
If htere was no interest etc. in WM'd characters, then why would people be asking for M4 to be WM'd and is in production at PP.
It's obvious that WM is not backwards compatible, so that one is not relavent.
Give people time and things will appear, I know of certain things, but cannot say due to Non Disclosure.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:07 AM
V4WM and the outfitter are excellent. I now use the weightmapped version all the time and pokethrough is minimal, not more as standard clothing in extreme bends and in some cases even less. I really like the way the outfitter does entire folders in one go and the speed in which it does it is remarkable (an entier folder of Alfaseed outfit in less than 2 minutes).
I can easily use V4WM all the time now without risk. Even if something does not work, I can always fall back to the original for that particular item or pose.
One thing is not clear to me yet - if content makers use the outfitter tool too copy the weightmap to their own clothing and then make it a perfect fitting - Can they distribute it along with their clothing. Or is the result contain copythighted material which they cannot distribute?
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:10 AM
I guess i sort-of opened the question to all, and thus invited comments like the above.
The problem, as I see it, is that it is a no-cost item. If it were in the marketplace, there wouldn't be much of a place to whinge about it: that feedback thing on the product display page is much less revelatory than a forum.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:15 AM
Quote - One thing is not clear to me yet - if content makers use the outfitter tool to copy the weightmap to their own clothing and then make it a perfect fitting - can they distribute it along with their clothing. Or is the result contain copythighted material which they cannot distribute?
That is the idea: this is a product for content makers as well as end-users. This way, the content maker - whilst designing clothing, say, for V4.2 (non-WM) can include a fit for the V4-WM figure, which would increase her market potential, I should think. And the process takes - as you know - seriously 2 minutes to accomplish. Why wouldn't a vendor do this?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:21 AM
Robyn - you DO know that it (outfitter) has been out for only 2 weeks?
How long is the pipeline for running the script, adjusting the weightmaps, getting it tested, submitting it to the store and getting it tested and accepted?
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:23 AM
Quote - Robyn - you DO know that it (outfitter) has been out for only 2 weeks?
How long is the pipeline for running the script, adjusting the weightmaps, getting it tested, submitting it to the store and getting it tested and accepted?
Fair enough, Wim... as I told Hedd: I'm terribly impatient. :blink: Might just pull my head back in, then...
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:33 AM
Lots of people don't mention WW2, XD etc. every day, but again it does not mean that they are not using those items on a daily basis.
It's like sending a mailer out through the normal post. You send out 1,000 posts, if you get a response of 4% then you are doing well.
So, no need to pull your head in at all.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:48 AM
It's not by any mistake I'm a nurse... hence the unrealistic expectations.
Don't mind me... thanks to all for your enlightening comments and suggestions.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
TooL_PePe posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 6:39 AM
I actually see that V4-WM is being used quite a lot around the various galleries I frequent. Most don't publicize it though. But it's pretty easy to spot in some renders.
I use her exclusively now, and am making some hi-rez/hi-density dynamic hair styles that I was hoping might draw some attention to her if peeps over at Poser Place have an interest. they will be usable on V4 just the same, but I figure promoting it for the WM version and stating that it is 'compatable' with standard would work well. ;)
Shvrdavid made some nice Skull caps for V4, and am having a blast with them so far. Hoping to have the first hair done this week.
Bejaymac posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 6:56 AM
IMHO it's because she isn't an 'official' DAZ version, many users have been 'brain washed' into only using DAZ figures, so most of them wont touch a 'rehash' done by a 3rd party. Take Genesis as an example, here we have a DAZ figure that only works in DS4, the out cry from the Poser users completely caught out DAZ, their 'brain washed' masses wanted the new figure but wouldn't 'jump ship' to use it, so DAZ had to backtrack and came up with the cr2 exporter.
Then there's those of us that don't have P9 and aren't likely to get it any time soon, the whole WM & SSS thing is pointless when your still using P6.
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 7:13 AM
The CR2 exporter is not going any further. DAZ wants SMSI to rewite its software and SMSI does not want to get locked into DAZ technology.
So no genesis for Poser.
V4WM does not require any investment at all - no new clothing, hair or poses. Just run a script and you can use what you already have. There is no jumping ship involved.
But you are right in that it is only usable in P9 and PP2012. So a good reason to spend the money on P9 instead of genesis
vilters posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 7:25 AM
And ? Arent we forgetting saturation?
When a lot of new figures are released in a very short time?
Content creators/vendors tend to stick to "what sells" untill a new figure starts getting them the same return as the older figures.
As long as the content for older figures sells?
We might see no content created untill a new figure comes to blow the older ones out of the sky.
And?? That did not happen yet.
V4 is still very firmly seated on her throne. LOL.
Some moons high above the nearest competition.
"Newer" figures might be better?? Oh yes.
But they do not bring the financial return yet.
Too many new in too short a time.
No time to build a reputation.
it is GOOD to have so many new figures.
But it reduces their individual chance to build a customer base around and to survive.
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 8:35 AM
There are two breeds of vendors, the 'character makers' and the 'cloth makers' and never the two shall meet. If V4-WM shall lift depend upon the first ones. Until there are new, wonderfully beautiful and haunting "Vera" or "Alexis" that uses features only found in Poser9/2012 not much will happen. Sure cloth vendors can include a WM version but up till now I always thought that the outfitter was a tool for the end user! Vendors usually include a lot of poses and materials the runtimes would look pretty cluttered and bloated with one more version of everything.
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 8:37 AM
Poses and materials are identical. Only a new version of the CR2 is needed
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:06 AM
Poses and materials are not identical. Using poses for materials is just a bad practice. Many things are different in Poser9/2012, not only weight mapping.
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:15 AM
Poses for V4 and V4Wm have slight variations. We found that out in testing. Its just a matter of a little dial moving and then save a V4WM version of the pose.
As mentioned, V4WM needs no other investment than having Poser 9Poser Pro 2012 and V4.2.
Yep, I know Poser 9PP2012 costs a bit but the people moving forward with WM'ing are working with the software that does the job.
So, if you do have Poser9Pro 2012 and V4, you can easily convert her to V4WM and convert her clothes via Outfitter.
It takes very little time to do so and is an amazing piece of work.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:27 AM
Deja Vu. Working with web development we always wanted the customer to embrace the latest browsers and the latest browsers only. But the annoying customers always insisted compatibility with old browsers forcing us to work with old technology..grr :(
"If it wasn't for the customers we could have had a very nice business!"
Tomsde posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:30 AM
I really think that Smith Micro needs to create a content creation division to provide new content for Poser 9/2012 in the same way e-Frontier really tried to do something different with Content Paradise and introduced the G2 series, a platinum like club, weekly freebies, and lots of new outfits for the G2s. I read on Runtime DNA they are reaching out to content creators to make a new, attractive weight mapped male figure. The problem with the G2s and the other content that was created for eFrontier is that there was just something a little off about them and they did have wide appeal; they dissapeared into an ocean of Vickies and Mikes. At least James was decent looking, I think Ryan is hideous.
I'm looking forward to Sixus Humanz line that will be coming out. They've promised not only attractive human figures, but clothings and accessories for them.
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:46 AM
Quote - Poses and materials are not identical. Using poses for materials is just a bad practice. Many things are different in Poser9/2012, not only weight mapping.
Who is talking about MAT files?
The poses for V4 work for V4WM pretty good - not always perfect, but if you change any scaling on a default V4 figure you have the same thing. Easy to correct
Material files (MAT and MC) are identical between V4 and V4WM
P8 materials can be used without problem in P8 and PP2012. Has nothing to do with V4WM
Vestmann posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:48 AM
I really liked the Perfect morphs before I had V4WM (I have the Booty and Thigh fixes) but I disagree that these are in any way better then V4WM.
First off the setup is more complicated. You need to run a script that creates a new figure then you need to load that figure before finally applying the fix morphs in correct order. What you're left with is a very resource heavy figure with tons and tons of morphs.
Then there's the fact that your clothing won't have these morphs so you either need to have a 3rd party app to transfer these morphs (making the clothing heavier) or you need to fix the clothing with the morph brush in every single pose. You could of course hide the geometry that's beneath the clothing but you'll be left with badly bending clothes.
The Perfect morphes are good for those who don't have weight mapping IMO, not for those of us who do. I'm sure the community can come up with an elbow fix if needed.
In the image above you can see V4WM on the left (front) and Perfect V4 on the right (back). The Jeans on V4WM have only been converted with the Outfitter. There are no extra fixes or hidden geometry. Perfect V4 has the original jeans...
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:48 AM
And SSS?
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:58 AM
Quote - And SSS?
P8 material files have no SSS. So these will work in both P8 and P9
MistyLaraCarrara posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:04 AM
Quote - Point well taken. V4-Wm and PP Outfitter did get a lot of support in that regard from RDNA: they gave it proper product status and newsletter support so DNA customers did see that and are happily using it, I'm assuming.
I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.
I go by the reputation of the crafter, not by price.
I think it may be more of a learning curve thing. Afters years of studying V4 and M4, practicing, and asking questions;
this new WM transferring stuff is still so mysterious.
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:07 AM
Nevertheless, I see little reason for the cloth-vendors to fiddle with V4-WM when it can so easely be done by the users. The characters-vendors must come first! BTW is there a single V4-WM "Vera" or "Alexis"? Just one?
?
wimvdb posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:11 AM
Take every V4 character morph and texture pack and apply it to V4WM
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:16 AM
Why must the character vendors come first?
Skins are already out there, morphs are out there, peolpe can make theor own characters quite easily these day.
V4WM works with the avalaiable characters that people already have for V4,2.
There is no first on anything.
If you just keep bringing out characters, people ask, where are the clothes.
It's just a chicken or egg situation.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:20 AM
That won't do I said, "new, wonderfully beautiful and haunting "Vera" or "Alexis".
When I see a new genesis character not to speak of the hair, I am striken by the distinct quality improvment. Now when Poser has weight-mapping why don't I see the same? It is not enough that is bends and behave better etc..
It is the new characters that are the locomotive for the Genesis train.
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:22 AM
This is for Poser, not Genesis, lets not get into that one again.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
millighost posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:40 AM
Quote - Take every V4 character morph and texture pack and apply it to V4WM
If that worked so well, that would answer the question: "why are there (and never will be) any V4WM specific sets?".
Personally, i believe that it will be not so simple, because it sounds much like "take any P5 material and put it into P2010, and you will have the same quality with gamma correction", which only works so far. (I am using P2010, so i have not tried V4WM or the outfitter, and do not know how well they actually work). But i think, similar to materials, the character/clothing/whatever creators have built their figures around the limitations of older Posers using a lot of dirty tricks which will get in the way when using their products with a different model. All speculation, of course.
MistyLaraCarrara posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:43 AM
The most beautiful character skins are for V3, imo.
To remap a figure to V3 textures and be legal to share it,
we just have to make sure we don't change zones, right?
It should be a simple import uvs process?
:idea:
A python script utility to import a .uvs set to a figure in the document window, without having to go through the uvmapperclassic process, would be soooooo awesome.
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:44 AM
In this world of instant's, remember that things specific for V4WM will appear, just give them time.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
Tomsde posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:45 AM
I disagree about people not finding value in free products; I've gotten a lot of stuff for free over the years that have been very useful--including figures. I think that vendors make things based upon what's popular--if they don't preceive a product as being popular then they won't feel there are any sales in items for that figure. I do think that the figure creator should support their own figure and create content for them. This was done with Apollo and it helped the figure get exposure and other vendors did create a decent amont of stuff for him and I think they'd still be creating stuff for him if the 3rd generation of Apollo had ever been released. I think what's killing content creation for him is the fact that vendors know there won't be any future support from the developer with him.
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 11:04 AM
As soon as my lady appear I'll make her a new Jeanne d'Arc costume, the most beautiful you have seen.
paganeagle2001 posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 11:10 AM
The thing about weight mapping is that it is for rigging etc.
Poser Pro 2012 includes advanced Weight Map Rig support enabling vertex by vertex fine painting of joint bends and bulges, to generate better performing 3D characters that can be more easily posed with natural joints across the body. Hybrid Rigging supports both traditional Poser Sphere and Capsule zones to be used in combination. Poser Pro also supports both traditional grouped body part figures and single mesh figures. Weight Map Support for third party figures is delivered within our native poser file format, the PZ3, an open, well documented format that has been at the heart of the creative Poser community for over 15 years.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
Tomsde posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 11:48 AM
Joan of Arch, that sound cool? Any other historical characters you plan of introducing?
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 12:05 PM
Attached Link: Angry Knight
Hi Tomsde,Actually I felt the painful limitations of the non-weight mapped mesh when I worked on the knight, (see link). Especially with multi layered cloth like this.
So everything is on hold right now I don't know what character to make a bet for. Hopefully the situation will sort it self out. In the meanwhile it is nice to have time to study, Marvelous Designed just released a new bunch of tricks this very morning!
MistyLaraCarrara posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:33 PM
this says it's for P8 
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/bumper-car-ride/89837
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
raven posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 2:58 PM
Attached Link: http://www.contentparadise.com/productDetails.aspx?id=11868
> Quote - The most beautiful character skins are for V3, imo. > > To remap a figure to V3 textures and be legal to share it, > we just have to make sure we don't change zones, right? > It should be a simple import uvs process?
Misty, If you really want to use V3 skins on V4, DPH has you (or rather, V4! ) covered :)
MistyLaraCarrara posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:07 PM
Quote - > Quote - The most beautiful character skins are for V3, imo.
To remap a figure to V3 textures and be legal to share it,
we just have to make sure we don't change zones, right?
It should be a simple import uvs process?
Misty, If you really want to use V3 skins on V4, DPH has you (or rather, V4! ) covered :)
Thanks.
i was thinking of Anastasia, or Alyson2 rather.
I've always been fond of Sydney, but she's not weightmapped.
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
Vestmann posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:13 PM
A weight mapped version of Sydney is in the making:
http://poserplace.phantom3d.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=213
MistyLaraCarrara posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:17 PM
Oh Sydney :wub:
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
hornet3d posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 3:47 PM
I downloaded both V4WM and the Outfitter script within days of them being available and have used them ever since. I was not interested in the other new figures mainly for the reason I have created a couple of characters over the past year or more that I want to use for some story telling. All of the female characters are based on V4 and, as I have few skills myself, are a result of tweaks with morphs, materials and combinations of characters that I have purchased. I guess like the writer of a novel I have become familiar with them. Could they be improved, you bet but I needed to draw the line somewhere and with the introduction of Poser 2012, V4WM, Outfitter and SSS I have reached a point where I am happy with the characters, warts and all. Now is the time wrench some reneders from the story running through my head.
Do I value V4WM and Outfitter as less important than P2012 because they are free, no! I would happily have paid for both of them. I admire the skills of the Poser Place team and their generosity in giving them to the community. I did not initially post renders of V4WM because most at the time where bending her in ways that were, understandably extreme (or painful/impossible if you are my age). I did however place a nude render in my gallery, the first and proably the last, just to show how I had converted my characters to V4WM. I will no doubt be uploading more, fully clothed this time, as I find the outfitter a dream to use.
I am not sure what the take up of V4WM is but just because I am not shouting it from the roof top does not mean I am not having a great deal of fun thanks to a group of un-selfish people. Many thanks to them all
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:21 PM
I stand corrected. The more recent posts have removed some false assumptions I had made about V4-WM's popularity and PP Outfitter's desirability. I can see from those who have posted that whilst some (well, one, really) prefer to stay with the original V4.2, those who can take advantage of P9/PP2012's exciting features are doing so with V4-WM and Outfitter in revamping their inventory and getting spectacular results.
Which is what we anticipated and hoped for.
Thanks to all those who have "made a joyful noise" about these products. No product is perfect, but given the challenges they faced I find what Phantom3D and Cage have been able to achieve has been in a class of its own.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:21 PM
Quote - By"better spent" I meant: the rigger who fought with this impossible mesh could have been working on something that would have advanced his own projects instead of giving of his time and talent to create a re-rigged, weight-mapped figure mod to offer to the community for free, a community who were begging for this figure and now seem apathetic about her. And critiques like yours would have been much more useful during the debugging phase of this project. None of us on the project ever thought to contort V4 into that particular position. I would have never thought that particular pose was so popular or so critical to success.
Have you logged a bug report about this issue at Poser Place?
I didn't and I won't log a "bug report" at Poser Place because people do not usually respond warmly to negative feedback. I do not want to elicit further complaints about ingratitude for all the hard work, etc, etc. Nor do I want my feedback on issues with particular poses to be dismissed again as "contortions."
That she would bend well in extreme poses was one of the features most loudly proclaimed by V4-WM creators. To dismiss a pose as a "contortion" because it doesn't work is exactly what DAZ did when people mentioned issues with the original V4's joints. What's good for the goose, and all...
Personally, I don't think bending the forearm at 75 degrees is remotely extreme. The neck in the 2nd render is bent a bit more than would probably be possible, but the bulge is still very visible at a less acute angle. And yes, I do think tilted heads and bent forearms are popular in many poses.
So I'll sum it up: I don't like V4-WM enough to use her. Maybe the lack of marketplace response to her is a result of similar feelings among others who have (very wisely, it seems) remained silent. Maybe the lack of immediate response is for other reasons. I don't think, however, that it's an issue over which one need get unduly emotional. Poser Place peeps did a fantastic job under a very restrictive set of circumstances and should be commended for it.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
hornet3d posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 4:45 PM
Quote - I stand corrected.
I don't think it is a question of anyone being corrected it seems a human trait to complain with ease and very rarely praise or thank anyone.
My excuse this time was that I was too busy converting all of my Vicky's wardrobe to V4WM. Fast as Outfitter is she has one hell of a wardrobe.
Of course there will never be a figure that everyone will rave about and you could take any silence to mean that no-one is bothered, equally it could mean all the Poser 9/2012 users are too busy playing with V4WM (well all but one), as with most things with life the truth probably lies somewhere between those two extremes.
One thing is sure though, short of anything unforseen, V4WM will have a home in my runtime for a long time to come.
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
moriador posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 5:08 PM
Quote - Thanks to all those who have "made a joyful noise" about these products. No product is perfect, but given the challenges they faced I find what Phantom3D and Cage have been able to achieve has been in a class of its own.
If you wanted praise, why didn't you ask for it directly? People in these forums have shown an unabashed willingness to offer positive commentary. There have been no lack of threads expounding the virtues of V4-WM.
However, you posed a question that begged for at least some somewhat "negative" speculations.
When you ask, "Why isn't this getting the response I expected?" not everyone is always going to jump in and say, "Oh, but it is!" Someone might actually make the mistake of offering an honest opinion that differs from the accepted "positive" response.
Just as I never critique gallery submissions even when people insist that they want to hear how they may improve, I won't make the mistake of offering such an opinion here in the forums again. LOL.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
vintorix posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 5:27 PM
RobynsVeil, remember Marcus Aurelius! ;)
Tomsde posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 5:30 PM
I'm sure good things are coming, it just takes time.
Vestmann posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 5:41 PM
Quote - > Quote - Thanks to all those who have "made a joyful noise" about these products. No product is perfect, but given the challenges they faced I find what Phantom3D and Cage have been able to achieve has been in a class of its own.
If you wanted praise, why didn't you ask for it directly? People in these forums have shown an unabashed willingness to offer positive commentary. There have been no lack of threads expounding the virtues of V4-WM.
However, you posed a question that begged for at least some somewhat "negative" speculations.
When you ask, "Why isn't this getting the response I expected?" not everyone is always going to jump in and say, "Oh, but it is!" Someone might actually make the mistake of offering an honest opinion that differs from the accepted "positive" response.
Just as I never critique gallery submissions even when people insist that they want to hear how they may improve, I won't make the mistake of offering such an opinion here in the forums again. LOL.
Being a maverick doesn't make all your critiques correct. It's good to have honest opinions as you've stated and people who express honest opinions must be able to accept honest replies. I'm sorry if someone burned you over at Poser Place but you must remember that the Poser Place forums are open and anyone can have a say there. There is always the chance that someone will say something that ruffles someone elses feathers. That's pretty much how it is on most forums I would think...
toastie posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 8:17 PM
I downloaded V4WM but haven't done anything with her yet, simply because I have so many other shiny new (and old) toys to play with in Poser 2012.
basicwiz posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 8:36 PM
To rachet down the rhetoric just a bit, perhaps I might get back and re-ask one of my original questions:
What is it that people are expecting to see in the way of products for V4-WM. I use her, I like her, and I can't think of a thing that I need for her that the converter has not already provided for her! In my mind, EVERY new V4 product that is released is for V4-WM because all I have to do is a quick convert and the item is good to go.
I guess I'm missing the point of what it is people are expecting the vendors to do differently since they actually don't NEED to do anything differently. They support both V4 and V4WM with every item they release!
$.02
Someone please set me straight.
meatSim posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 8:44 PM
Well as much as Outfitter does an excellent job of fitting the clothes with a WM rig, it is still an automated process and, just like the setup room or the copy joint zones, The weightmap is projected onto the clothing mesh by the magic weightmap projecting gnome that lives inside of poser. In my mind there is nothing automated that cant be done just a bit better by some personal attention from an artist. I think that level of personal tweaking and polish would be what I would like to see in a vendor supported V4WM product. I know I have been running items through the setup room for antonia WM and even though they fit well, they are always improved by at least a quick smoothing pass over the maps. Heck why not, as a vendor, run your completed outfit through outfitter and offer it up 'out of the box' for V4WM as well, maybe a quick tweak to the maps. done.
Quote - To rachet down the rhetoric just a bit, perhaps I might get back and re-ask one of my original questions:
What is it that people are expecting to see in the way of products for V4-WM. I use her, I like her, and I can't think of a thing that I need for her that the converter has not already provided for her! In my mind, EVERY new V4 product that is released is for V4-WM because all I have to do is a quick convert and the item is good to go.
I guess I'm missing the point of what it is people are expecting the vendors to do differently since they actually don't NEED to do anything differently. They support both V4 and V4WM with every item they release!
$.02
Someone please set me straight.
basicwiz posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 8:52 PM
The trick is going to be asking the vendors to learn yet another process: weight mapping. I promise I don't have a clue as to how to do it, even to edit a weightmap. As to having the vendor run the item through the converter, why ask him to do that when it can just as easily be done at the user end and not inflict (yet more) code bloat into downloads.
I guess my own issue here is, I've never converted an item that didn't actually fit V4WM BETTER than the original fit V4. But that's just been my experience.
lmckenzie posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 9:26 PM
OK, I've only read the 1st few posts here. At the risk of whatever, these are just the points that a few of were trying to make some time ago about communication, marketing etc. I vaguely recall that our questions and suggestions were to some degree perceived as nay-saying, discouraging, whatever. To reiterate, you can't create something, no matter how superior it may be and expect it to succeed based on it's qualities or perceived miscues by competitors. The history, market, challenges, opportunities etc. were all pretty well hashed out in that discussion. Maybe there are one or two points there that might bear more consideration - I don't know.
The equation may have changed somewhat with the free DS4 factor, but I think the position of NextGen Poser figure is still open. It's going to take work though. That is especially true in a market that has had an established order for so long and has many consumers who may not be automatically impressed with what seems so obviously compelling to others. Assuming otherwise is the road to Betamax. I still maintain that SmithMicro itself is ultimately the only entity that can really promote the advances of Poser in the form of a new figure, but I won't flog that horse again. I wish you well in your efforts.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
Cage posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:08 PM
Quote - The weightmap is projected onto the clothing mesh by the magic weightmap projecting gnome that lives inside of poser.
I know it's sidetracking a bit here, but can I just say that I wish we could've gotten this into the Outfitter manual? :lol:
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
meatSim posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:12 PM
TBH to tweak a transfered weightmap takes about as much skill as using the morph brush. Basically push, pull and smooth except that it pushes and pulls along the direction of the bend rather than against the surface or in relation to the screen.
I dont know.. to me it would be sad if a vendor 'just couldnt be bothered to learn' a simple process that could make their work better. But perhaps thats just my artist side speaking. I guess it isn't necessarily fair hold others to the standard that I would like to work to
Quote - The trick is going to be asking the vendors to learn yet another process: weight mapping. I promise I don't have a clue as to how to do it, even to edit a weightmap. As to having the vendor run the item through the converter, why ask him to do that when it can just as easily be done at the user end and not inflict (yet more) code bloat into downloads.
I guess my own issue here is, I've never converted an item that didn't actually fit V4WM BETTER than the original fit V4. But that's just been my experience.
meatSim posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 10:16 PM
Quote - > Quote - The weightmap is projected onto the clothing mesh by the magic weightmap projecting gnome that lives inside of poser.
I know it's sidetracking a bit here, but can I just say that I wish we could've gotten this into the Outfitter manual? :lol:
lol I was paraphrasing from my understanding of the python speak you and david sometimes slip into
Cage posted Wed, 29 February 2012 at 11:22 PM
Poser's weight-mapping tools are fairly easy to learn and it isn't too hard to improve upon mapping that has already been generated for a figure. It seems to be a bit more difficult to start from scratch, generating a good set of weights for a base figure -- particularly if that base mesh is not well-suited to good weight-mapping results. I've found Antonia to be a good figure with which to learn how to use the tools, myself. I'd like to think that the Outfitter could be used as a good starting point to make it easier for a content creator to develop more refined weights.
But creating weight mapped joints can be more laborious than simply adjusting the traditional Poser zone-based joints. Still, I think it is easier than trying to create JCMs to fix any shortcomings of those zone joints. I think more people will start using these tools, over time. Weight-mapping is the future for Poser, as well as DAZ|Studio. It may not happen overnight, but content creators will begin to use these new tools and options more and more as time goes by.
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
vintorix posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 12:27 AM
Unfortunately I don't think expertise in weight mapping will provide the wanted edge. V4-WM is good enough for all practical uses. But this is a beauty contest, pure and simply.
paganeagle2001 posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 3:39 AM
First of all I need to resond to this comment:-
I didn't and I won't log a "bug report" at Poser Place because people do not usually respond warmly to negative feedback. I do not want to elicit further complaints about ingratitude for all the hard work, etc, etc. Nor do I want my feedback on issues with particular poses to be dismissed again as "contortions."
NEVER worry about postig a bug report at PP, we take everything onboard and try to improve problems found by users. If people don't tell us, then we can't solve the problem. Sometimes it is very esy to solve, other times it takes a little longer.
But the main thing is to tel us.
Now on to support, like anything else it takes vendors a little while to start supporting anything new. Most had projects underway when V4WM came out and they won't drop those to start supporting something new.
The thing is as well, those of us that make freebies etc. can model the items for basic V4 and then just use the Outfitter to convert to V4WM. That way you can support BOTH figures.
Support comes from all sides, PP has provided the way to do things, it is up to others to continue that process.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
paganeagle2001 posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 3:42 AM
But this is a beauty contest, pure and simply.
For V4WM it is useability, not just a pretty face. Someting may look beautiful, but if it cannot be used due to bad rigging etc. then people will not use it.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
RobynsVeil posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 4:00 AM
Quote - The trick is going to be asking the vendors to learn yet another process: weight mapping. I promise I don't have a clue as to how to do it, even to edit a weightmap. As to having the vendor run the item through the converter, why ask him to do that when it can just as easily be done at the user end and not inflict (yet more) code bloat into downloads. I guess my own issue here is, I've never converted an item that didn't actually fit V4WM BETTER than the original fit V4. But that's just been my experience.
I guess I'm try to see this from a vendor's view of improving the product's marketability. Giving an example: Danae and her Dublin figure that takes advantage of SSS in the new Poser. This is a vendor acknowledging new technology and how rendering figures with that technology give improved results.
What I'm hoping to see is new clothing for V4 with V4-WM options. True, Outfitter is an end-user product but why can't it also be a means to improve marketability of an item for the vendor? It's not a laborious task: takes a minute or less. Who knows - just guessing here - eventually people who have upgraded to P9/PP2012 will/may be looking for this feature: it says "I've got a Poser 9 / PP 2012 ready version of my product."
Just sayin'...
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
hornet3d posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 4:20 AM
Well Crossdresser have added a license for V4WM which extends the Vicky's wardrobe even further, that can only help the take up.
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
RobynsVeil posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 4:41 AM
Good point, Hornet3D. Just got the notification myself.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
DustRider posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 2:14 PM
I really hate to flog a dead horse until it's unrecognisable, but I feel it's important to add to a few comments already posted then go back into the shadows where I belong. I don't have P9 0r PP2012 yet, so I can't use V4WM. I do check the V4WM thread here quite often to see whats going on and if anything new is happening. I don't check the gallery's for images because I simply don't have time to do so. Occasionally I check the Forums at RDNA, but again time is limited.
Honestly for any "new revolutionary figure for Poser" to be highly successful it needs to be marketed, marketed well, then marketed some more. V4WM started off with a bang, lots of chatter in the forums, several images posted in the forums, then within a couple of weeks things slowed down alot, and now they are pretty dead except for idle chatter and an occasional newb question. Visibility of, and excitement over V4WM has dropped off to almost nothing (unfortuantately the same is true for Antonia, and Anastasia is getting iffy now too).
This isn't a new phenomenon, it's happened time and time again in the Poserverse. The problem is the creators feel it is such a fantastic product that if "they build it they will come". Often the creators have promoted an item quite a bit (Apollo comes to mind), but they didn't have their product everywhere you looked, with ample vendor/3rd party support at muliple stores.
From what I've read, the Outfitter will convert standard V4 items to V4WM with ease, so the available content everywhere issue is "sort of" taken care of already. For those who are a bit more technical oriented, they are good to go, and have everything they need to jump on board and be happy with V4WM. But for the masses, it's seeing and hearing over and over how great this is, and how easy it is to use, and seeing the results (over and over). It's the "oooohhhh ... shiney" factor coupled with "keeping up with the Jonses", and proof that "it really is so easy anyone can, and has, to do it".
For the vendors, it comes down to their bottom line. Even if it is fairly easy, as many have indicated in this thread, is it worth the effort it to support another format? From what they all say, there needs to be a lot of people out there wanting products for a given figure to even cover the cost of development. Vendors here have to support their own products, so they have to ask themselves will any possible additional sales from supporting V4WM offest the additional support costs (time) needed for new users. If it looks like there will be a huge market for a figure when it is released, vendors will jump on board immediately!! But, if the market is unknown, they will simply watch an wait to see what happens. If the few vendors that provide content immediately continue to make more content, and a few new vendors do the same, then you will see a lot of vendors creating stuff for the figure. But few have the resources to put a huge investment into making content for a figure at a loss for several months, to maybe even a year or more.
I think V4WM has the best chance of any of the "new" figures to become a very popular figure, simply because there is a lot of content that can be used with what appears to be relatively minimal effort on the part of the user. But, and this is a BIG but, it seems like most Poser users like things simple, so to get them to use Outfitter, someone needs to really market V4WM and Outfitter. Show how simple it is to use and how great the results are. Do this everywhere in the Poserverse (not just here and at RDNA), put video tutorials on YouTube, get obvious V4WM images in every major gallery out there - continually for at least 6 months, and V4WM might just rise to her potential!!!
Also, moriador made some very valid observations. The team that developed V4WM deserves a lot praise and cudos, as I'm sure that countless hours went into V4WM (thanks for your efforts even though I can't use her yet). But, the joints obviously do need some additional work, if it's possible to even fix the elbo issue (darn, after seeing it, unlees it's fixed, I'll never be able to show bent arms from the side). I think the dev team also needs to decide if they will continue to fix issues as they are pointed out, or if V4WM is "finished" in their eyes. If she is considered "finished" then broad acceptance and use ma be a bit more difficult to achieve. If they plan on fixing issues as they are pointed out, they need to make it very obvious that they want people to contribute, so they can make V4WM better.
On another more OT note, I think basicwiz made a very valid point about Antonia needing a very good set of standardized morphs. I don't want to bruse any feelings because I know a lot of time, effort, care, and even love went into her creation. But, for many people she is just ..... ummm ..... cute? She is the very very average girl next door type, which is OK, but she doesn't come with a full set of morphs that will take her to the next V Chick status. The morph set at RDNA is very good, but she really needs a standard morph set in the same price range as she is (free?) that can make her a "drop dead gogeous got to have her" figure (or a virtual barbie), with characters sets readily available that use the proper morph combinations to make her a must have figure. She also needs a comprehensive set of clothing. A few normal things, and some "slut wear", as everyone typically refers to it. This also needs to be free, or a very very modest price. Now you have the base package to create some real buzz beyond the tech/practical use portion of the market.
I see it all the time, "Why doesn't somebody create more praticle cloths for figure X?". It's simple, they make what sells!! If you want to "sell" Antonia to the greater Poserverse, and not the select few that want a very simple girl next door type, you need to package her in a way that sells. She needs to be marketed like she is a commercial product, or she will quickly be forgotten. She needs to have a standard set of "make me your dream girl" morphs that vendors can support (or if the current set at RDNA can do this, there needs to be some characters developed from it that make it the defacto standard), or she will soon be forgotten. She is a great figure, and I would hate to she her end up among the ranks of great figures that were never used. But, without a good marketing plan, a good set of standard morphs, and some, as you say, "barbie" characters, she most likely will fade into the background.
I honestly hope I didn't offend anyone with my post/rant here. It's just that I've seen potential in these new figures, and I'm afraid they will end up lost and forgotten if they can't be truely marketed. I know this is asking a lot from their makers, since they have already invested so much in them. But I'm affraid in our society, that "build it and they will come" just won't work for alternate Poser figures. They need to be promoted a lot more than they have been, they need to be "ooooooo ...Shiney!!!".
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
RobynsVeil posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 2:22 PM
Your points are all valid and important to note, as are Moriador's and BasicWiz's.
Unfortunately, I'm a nurse. I don't know marketing. Wish I did: I'd be busy doing that, because i agree... that is essentially what is lacking here.
If an enthusiast of Poser Place products with marketing skills were to step to the plate with ideas and strategies, this person would be welcomed with open arms.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Glitterati3D posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 2:26 PM
Quote - I really hate to flog a dead horse until it's unrecognisable, but I feel it's important to add to a few comments already posted then go back into the shadows where I belong. I don't have P9 0r PP2012 yet, so I can't use V4WM. I do check the V4WM thread here quite often to see whats going on and if anything new is happening. I don't check the gallery's for images because I simply don't have time to do so. Occasionally I check the Forums at RDNA, but again time is limited.
Honestly for any "new revolutionary figure for Poser" to be highly successful it needs to be marketed, marketed well, then marketed some more. V4WM started off with a bang, lots of chatter in the forums, several images posted in the forums, then within a couple of weeks things slowed down alot, and now they are pretty dead except for idle chatter and an occasional newb question. Visibility of, and excitement over V4WM has dropped off to almost nothing (unfortuantately the same is true for Antonia, and Anastasia is getting iffy now too).
This isn't a new phenomenon, it's happened time and time again in the Poserverse. The problem is the creators feel it is such a fantastic product that if "they build it they will come". Often the creators have promoted an item quite a bit (Apollo comes to mind), but they didn't have their product everywhere you looked, with ample vendor/3rd party support at muliple stores.
From what I've read, the Outfitter will convert standard V4 items to V4WM with ease, so the available content everywhere issue is "sort of" taken care of already. For those who are a bit more technical oriented, they are good to go, and have everything they need to jump on board and be happy with V4WM. But for the masses, it's seeing and hearing over and over how great this is, and how easy it is to use, and seeing the results (over and over). It's the "oooohhhh ... shiney" factor coupled with "keeping up with the Jonses", and proof that "it really is so easy anyone can, and has, to do it".
For the vendors, it comes down to their bottom line. Even if it is fairly easy, as many have indicated in this thread, is it worth the effort it to support another format? From what they all say, there needs to be a lot of people out there wanting products for a given figure to even cover the cost of development. Vendors here have to support their own products, so they have to ask themselves will any possible additional sales from supporting V4WM offest the additional support costs (time) needed for new users. If it looks like there will be a huge market for a figure when it is released, vendors will jump on board immediately!! But, if the market is unknown, they will simply watch an wait to see what happens. If the few vendors that provide content immediately continue to make more content, and a few new vendors do the same, then you will see a lot of vendors creating stuff for the figure. But few have the resources to put a huge investment into making content for a figure at a loss for several months, to maybe even a year or more.
I think V4WM has the best chance of any of the "new" figures to become a very popular figure, simply because there is a lot of content that can be used with what appears to be relatively minimal effort on the part of the user. But, and this is a BIG but, it seems like most Poser users like things simple, so to get them to use Outfitter, someone needs to really market V4WM and Outfitter. Show how simple it is to use and how great the results are. Do this everywhere in the Poserverse (not just here and at RDNA), put video tutorials on YouTube, get obvious V4WM images in every major gallery out there - continually for at least 6 months, and V4WM might just rise to her potential!!!
Also, moriador made some very valid observations. The team that developed V4WM deserves a lot praise and cudos, as I'm sure that countless hours went into V4WM (thanks for your efforts even though I can't use her yet). But, the joints obviously do need some additional work, if it's possible to even fix the elbo issue (darn, after seeing it, unlees it's fixed, I'll never be able to show bent arms from the side). I think the dev team also needs to decide if they will continue to fix issues as they are pointed out, or if V4WM is "finished" in their eyes. If she is considered "finished" then broad acceptance and use ma be a bit more difficult to achieve. If they plan on fixing issues as they are pointed out, they need to make it very obvious that they want people to contribute, so they can make V4WM better.
On another more OT note, I think basicwiz made a very valid point about Antonia needing a very good set of standardized morphs. I don't want to bruse any feelings because I know a lot of time, effort, care, and even love went into her creation. But, for many people she is just ..... ummm ..... cute? She is the very very average girl next door type, which is OK, but she doesn't come with a full set of morphs that will take her to the next V Chick status. The morph set at RDNA is very good, but she really needs a standard morph set in the same price range as she is (free?) that can make her a "drop dead gogeous got to have her" figure (or a virtual barbie), with characters sets readily available that use the proper morph combinations to make her a must have figure. She also needs a comprehensive set of clothing. A few normal things, and some "slut wear", as everyone typically refers to it. This also needs to be free, or a very very modest price. Now you have the base package to create some real buzz beyond the tech/practical use portion of the market.
I see it all the time, "Why doesn't somebody create more praticle cloths for figure X?". It's simple, they make what sells!! If you want to "sell" Antonia to the greater Poserverse, and not the select few that want a very simple girl next door type, you need to package her in a way that sells. She needs to be marketed like she is a commercial product, or she will quickly be forgotten. She needs to have a standard set of "make me your dream girl" morphs that vendors can support (or if the current set at RDNA can do this, there needs to be some characters developed from it that make it the defacto standard), or she will soon be forgotten. She is a great figure, and I would hate to she her end up among the ranks of great figures that were never used. But, without a good marketing plan, a good set of standard morphs, and some, as you say, "barbie" characters, she most likely will fade into the background.
I honestly hope I didn't offend anyone with my post/rant here. It's just that I've seen potential in these new figures, and I'm afraid they will end up lost and forgotten if they can't be truely marketed. I know this is asking a lot from their makers, since they have already invested so much in them. But I'm affraid in our society, that "build it and they will come" just won't work for alternate Poser figures. They need to be promoted a lot more than they have been, they need to be "ooooooo ...Shiney!!!".
And, I will add to this that the VERY reason V4 is so popular is that she has been marketed by the best.
In this very thread, it's been pointed out that she is not the best mesh. Yet, there she is at the top of the heap. Why?
Marketing.
hornet3d posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 3:24 PM
And, I will add to this that the VERY reason V4 is so popular is that she has been marketed by the best.
In this very thread, it's been pointed out that she is not the best mesh. Yet, there she is at the top of the heap. Why?
Marketing.
Well one factor could be the fact that, from the galleries at least, a large number of people use Vicky in her naked form and I wonder just how many viewers look at such renders and think "her arms don't look quite right".
If you are using Poser for commercial use then I accept that Vicky may have a poor mesh but most users are hobbiests and, having spent lots on the wardrobe, are happy to use her warts and all. I'm not sure that any new figure is going to have an easy ride no matter how strong the marketing. Many people stated that they were not interested in DS4 becuase of the time that they would need to spend to learn a new program let alone the expense equipping the software with all the goodies required. To a large degree any new figure would have the same problem.
Having developed characters based on V4 that meet my needs it would take something very different for me to start all over again no matter how good the marketing. V4WM, Outfitter and SSS in Poser 2012 allow me to enhance what I have without throwing away the time I have spent so far, while new figure is also a whole new ball game.
As to vendors for V4WM well they really don't have to do anything different, if the clothes are different or high quality I will happily buy them and spend the few minutes it takes to run outfitter to convert to V4WM, not sure what else is needed.
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
vintorix posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 4:32 PM
Marketing, what a lot of trash. To blame marketing is just a poor excuse. Don't people read Ralph Waldo Emerson anymore?
"Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door"
If marketing was all there is to it there are no shortage of companies with lots of cash but it doesn't work, Sorry.
Now the first half of the work is done, and in an excellent way. Now we only need artists to make a wonderful morph set that turn her into the most incredible beautiful human being on earth, and not only beautiful but cute too..
vintorix posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 4:52 PM
And flaws are no surprise but please keep your sense of proportions. For each imperfection in V4 WM I can find ten more serious faults in any other figure, Genesis not excluded. Perfection is the enemy of progress.
Edit: Its good to remember that not even max or Maya and even Houdini (from $7500 and up) can do what Poser can do.
Glitterati3D posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 4:57 PM
Quote - Marketing, what a lot of trash. To blame marketing is just a poor excuse. Don't people read Ralph Waldo Emerson anymore?
"Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door"
If marketing was all there is to it there are no shortage of companies with lots of cash but it doesn't work, Sorry.
Now the first half of the work is done, and in an excellent way. Now we only need artists to make a wonderful morph set that turn her into the most incredible beautiful human being on earth, and not only beautiful but cute too..
LOL, good luck with that.
And, I do believe THAT was the purpose of this thread....to ask why no artists were going to "make a wonderful morph set that turn her...."
BTW, it's the Poser Place crew who are calling V4 flawed.
DustRider posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 5:03 PM
Quote - Edit: Its good to remember that not even max or Maya and even Houdini (from $7500 and up) can do what Poser can do.
Sorry, don't want to go off topic here but........???
What can Poser do that they can't???
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
vintorix posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 5:15 PM
"What can Poser do that they can't???"
As you say I don't want to get off topic but what max and Maya can't do will easily fill a book of thousand pages. We take that discussion another time. You can prepare yourself by downloading the new zBrush that was released today.
DustRider posted Thu, 01 March 2012 at 6:03 PM
Quote - Your points are all valid and important to note, as are Moriador's and BasicWiz's.
Unfortunately, I'm a nurse. I don't know marketing. Wish I did: I'd be busy doing that, because i agree... that is essentially what is lacking here.
If an enthusiast of Poser Place products with marketing skills were to step to the plate with ideas and strategies, this person would be welcomed with open arms.
I would offer to help (not that I'm a marketing expert), but I have two jobs, one that often requires 12-14 hour days. So I don't have much time either, plus my schedule is pretty unpridictable. But, if I can ever save up enough for PP 2012 (was close, until I had to have some dental work done), I would be willing post renders, and maybe help in some other simple ways.
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......
lmckenzie posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 6:53 AM
I wish it were not so, but the idea that marketing is irrelevant simply doesn't jibe with reality. The vast graveyard of great failed products, political candidates etc. that weren't marketed correctly or enough is testament to that - as are the counter examples of utter dreck that are wildly popular. Marketing isn't everything but the notion that you succeed without it is, I believe, naieve in the extreme.
In the case of the non-commercial products, are you asking for donations? With some cash, you could actually (heresy I know) buy some ads. One banner ad here at Renderosity would reach more people than ever frequent the forums of the galleries. Speaking of the latter, I don't know if the gallery allows clickable links, but every one of those pretty pictures that are supposed to catch people's eyes should have a direct link to where they can get the figures. IMO, said images also need to emphasize the advantages of the figure, even (heresy alert) above artistic value. Yeah, it's a pretty figure, but what about it is different than any other pretty figure? If that means contorting her and screaming (OK subtly mention) 'try that with
You're dealing with a limited market at this point. SM has a list of everyone who bought P9/2012. Now hell might freeze over before they'd agree to promote say Antonia, but it's their software and I'd argue in their interest to promote it's features the best way possible. I'd sure as heck approach them. All they can do is say no. If nothing else, they have marketing people who might give you some free advice.
Get the PDFs, videos etc. and at least get them and associated documentation translated into good Japanese. I don't know what the uptake of P9/2012 is in Japan but that has always been a key Poser market. A quick Google search shows some hits on Japanese websites for Antonia. I'd certainly try to capitalize on whatever potential interest exists.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
paganeagle2001 posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 6:55 AM
There is a problem with hitting all the forums and galleries with images etc.
We would have been accused of spamming.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
kobaltkween posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 7:33 AM
OK, a few clarifications. One is the character issue. There is no such thing as a V4 WM "specific" character. You can convert any V4 character with the V4 WM script and save it. I personally converted Morphia, added several basic morph sets (S4, A4, Morphs++, etc.), and saved that character (I hate having to load morph sets). I've used that base character to apply other V4 characters to. Most of those have been characters from when V4 first came out. You can have P9/PP 2012 specific materials, but you cannot have a V4 WM specific character.
In point of fact V4 WM is the only version of V4 you can sell without saying "buy a whole bunch of stuff to get this look," showing crappy bends, just misleading people about the performance of your character's morph, or doing a whole bunch of joint fixes yourself. I wouldn't be surprised if she was being used without credit in several V4 character promos.
In terms of clothing, for one thing, you have to take into account production and planning time. I doubt that most clothing creators were planning on getting into weight mapping based on the buzz from a month or more ago. And a smart vendor isn't going to change their plans for a product just because something new and shiny came out. They're going to wait and see what happens and develop new plans when they're through the current ones. And if the buzz dies down in the meantime, they'll just continue on their track.
Frankly, I've seen the same with Genesis. Outside of DAZ, I don't see a whole lot of clothes for V5.
And maybe I'm missing something, but wasn't Outfitter for converting existing clothes, not making new ones? Or have I misunderstood?
But even if a clothing creator worked Outfitter into their creation process, that's a non-trivial complcation to add. You have to test the weight mapping, which means you have to be ready to correct it if testing finds something wrong. I'm sure many aren't willing to take that chance until they're more comfortable with the process.
And no clothing creator wants to sell something that excludes P8 users, so they probably won't specifically target V4 WM. I'm not sure how it's been marketed, but I asked AlfaseeD directly about their new 110.1 on deviantART, and they told me "We're not including a WM version of the pieces but yes, they'll be usable with WM V4, either using the released tool or the transfer WM function in Poser. In this very image we did use V4 WM 
." So the promo used V4 WM, and they're interested in V4 WM (they have said they want to make a WM Alice), but they didn't mention it in the promo.
In terms of marketing, I think Antonia, Antonia WM, and V4 WM have been well marketed at release time. They just haven't had long term marketing, which is the issue at the moment. Vendors tend to wait to see what happens, except for (very) sure things. If there's a V4 WM post in every page of the gallery here, then they know they should think about supporting her. But if there's not...
I personally love how Antonia looks and find her body far superior to V4 in that respect. And with certain morphs, I'm rarely able to recognize her. I always think, "Wow, how did that person manage to get V4 looking so good?" Then I check the notes and find it's Antonia. But I, who kind of look for her, am not seeing much about her any more. So yeah, she'll fall off vendor's radar. The people working on her and with her (or V4 WM, or any new figure) need to post images and post them here, where there seems to be about 10x's as much traffic as at RDNA. Which is not to say don't post them at RDNA. In fact, they should be posted everywhere. deviantART, RDNA, even DAZ, since its galleries are open now. If there's any news or tricks or random information regarding these figures, start a thread about it here.
Edited to add: Um, since when has anyone been accused of spamming because their stuff was popular in the galleries? Or even for posting images frequently? The people who are in the top viewed post images just about every day. I've never seen anyone call them "spammers." If you started tons of marketing threads in the forums, sure. But actually pushed information like how to make clothes for V4 WM from scratch, rather than waiting for people to ask? I very much doubt it.
vilters posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 7:57 AM
Actually, it is quite simple.
I have been Posering for years and years, and I only know ONE single figure that has been marketed correctly by ONE individual.
If you have a NEW figure??
Tip 1: DO NOT RELEASE IT. And KEEEP your mouth SHUT!!!!!
Tip 2: build at least 500 items for the figure. 250 for give a way’s and 250 to into market. BE READY to promote your own figure for at least 6 months yourself.
I, me and myself...
Tip 3: beta test the hell out of it. And I mean THE HELL!!
Tip4: NOW, you are ready.
Release the figure with lost of bla-bla-bla-bla- and Promo pictures USING STANDARD Poser or DAZ features. => Show to your forum guests that EVEYBODY can do the same.
All will say, WHAW!
Content creators will say; Nice, I wonder how many days she will last and continue building for V4.
But this time you are ready.
IMPORTANT ! Keep the momentum going.
Rlease a freebie EACH and EVERY DAY for the Next months.
People will start using your figure as it has hair-clothes-textures-shoes-etc.
KEEP the momentum going, until????
Until the content creators see the benefit to start building for YOUR figure instead of V4.
The launch and "take off" of a really good figure will take a year.
Why so long???
The first 3 months are the "look and wait months" for content creators. hey, they do not want to loose out $$$$$.
The next 3 months are "stabilising" and competing with V4.
During those first 6 months, YOU and ONLY YOU can keep the momentum going by constantly feeding in the freebies and promoting YOUR figure over ANY competition.
The second 6 months is to beat and splash the competion.
YOU,
NOT a team!!!!!
But only YOU!
Only YOU can do that as figure creator.
YOU have to push YOUR figure for a year and do nothing, and I mean NOTHING else.
Announce a next project too soon! AND ALL STOPS.
ALL support for your figure you just released STOPS!
Everybody waits your next project, as it will be better then what you just released.
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
basicwiz posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 8:04 AM
vilters...
The only problem with your idea is, by the time you make 500 items for the character, the next version of Poser will be out and you are obsolete again! 
Glitterati3D posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 8:14 AM
Quote - vilters...
The only problem with your idea is, by the time you make 500 items for the character, the next version of Poser will be out and you are obsolete again!
Which is exactly why a creator should search out a few well known vendors, give them exclusive access to the new character, and plan to release WITH the figure.
There should be products at EVERY brokerage, vendors working on your character at every brokerage. Established vendors, folks people trust as good quality and superior products.
If you want a new figure to succeed, the vendors are the ones who are going to make or break it. Customers will notice when they start seeing a lot of product and not before.
THAT is a marketing plan which is proven in this industry.
vilters posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 8:28 AM
@ basicwiz
NO!
We are more then a decade into this Poser-DAZ figures 3D thing.
the origional Poser 1 figures, still work.
the Poser 2 figures still work
The Poser4 figures still work.
The newest figures are well, "newer".
But do they bring "NEW" things???
Moving breasts?
What OLD figure does that? No, do not answer.
Rephrase;
What NEW figure does that? Now it is time to answer.
When I put my arms above my head? My breast go up.
When I lower my arms? My breasts go down.
I think this is the same for the Worlds population, east or west, north ot south.
Yes-yes, Poly count has gone up with time, so has Poly pollution.
But?
Rigging has become better in both applications.
If anybody wants to release a NEW figure?
it better have something NEW to earn its place in Poser univerce!
And then, follow Tip 1 to 4 here above.
Beating V4 and V4WM is a lot like going to WAR.
And as one General once said. "Never start a WAR if you can not win it".
Having the best Army in the world is not going to do it, if you do not have the ammunition and the logistics to permanently keep it going.
Beating V4 and V4WM will take some doing, and it is NOT going to happen overnight.
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
MistyLaraCarrara posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 8:36 AM
It works. I put a .pp2 in the .cr2 folder and the P12 library sees it.
Now, that's game changing
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
Glitterati3D posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 8:46 AM
Quote - It works. I put a .pp2 in the .cr2 folder and the P12 library sees it.
Now, that's game changing
And, MAT/Material files as well. I don't run all over my runtime anymore to find the "parts" to an outfit....they're all together. Props, figures, MAT files, in one folder.
paganeagle2001 posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 9:17 AM
Interesting!
I've never known a single charcter to be released with 250 items?
I've not known a compnay release a new freebie for a single character every day for X months?
Those are unrealistic expectations of a mainstream company. let alone a small group of individuals.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
shvrdavid posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 9:24 AM
Quote - Edit: Its good to remember that not even max or Maya and even Houdini (from $7500 and up) can do what Poser can do.
Inquiring minds want to know....
Please tell us just one thing that Poser can do, that Houdini can not.
Sounds to me like you have never even seen Houdini, let alone used it.
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
lmckenzie posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 9:46 AM
"It works. I put a .pp2 in the .cr2 folder and the P12 library sees it."
Sure you're in the right thread MLP - been there done that with multiple tabs open. Or alternatively, don't Bogart it - pass it to me :-)
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
Khai-J-Bach posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 10:16 AM
Quote - > Quote - Edit: Its good to remember that not even max or Maya and even Houdini (from $7500 and up) can do what Poser can do.
Inquiring minds want to know....
Please tell us just one thing that Poser can do, that Houdini can not.
Sounds to me like you have never even seen Houdini, let alone used it.
easy to fix. goto http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=589&Itemid=221 and get Houdini Apprentice. it's free.... ;)
MistyLaraCarrara posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 10:19 AM
Quote - "It works. I put a .pp2 in the .cr2 folder and the P12 library sees it."
Sure you're in the right thread MLP - been there done that with multiple tabs open. Or alternatively, don't Bogart it - pass it to me :-)
seemed to fit the game changing theme. radical even.
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
kobaltkween posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 11:31 AM
I think the idea of replacing V4 is unnecessary. That's like saying unless you can displace Coke or Pepsi, don't bother selling beverages. Somehow, Dr. Pepper and even our local Sweet Tea company seem to be doing OK. Even in this small market, eF considered Miki enough of a success to make Miki2, and SM considered that enough of a success to make Miki3. For a long while, Nursoda, maker of custom figures, was a top selling merchant.
Offering people an option is important. But it's no good if they don't know about the option. And they won't if one or two months after release, even the beta team isn't bothering to use it and use it prominently. Mavka gets pretty decent support for a 3rd party and toonish figure. But Nursoda's stuff is pretty prominent in the galleries and prominently credited, so the people who like that look know where to go to get it.
Glitterati3D posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 11:41 AM
Quote - I think the idea of replacing V4 is unnecessary. That's like saying unless you can displace Coke or Pepsi, don't bother selling beverages. Somehow, Dr. Pepper and even our local Sweet Tea company seem to be doing OK. Even in this small market, eF considered Miki enough of a success to make Miki2, and SM considered that enough of a success to make Miki3. For a long while, Nursoda, maker of custom figures, was a top selling merchant.
Offering people an option is important. But it's no good if they don't know about the option. And they won't if one or two months after release, even the beta team isn't bothering to use it and use it prominently. Mavka gets pretty decent support for a 3rd party and toonish figure. But Nursoda's stuff is pretty prominent in the galleries and prominently credited, so the people who like that look know where to go to get it.
I think even DAZ is discovering "replacing" V4 is a difficult task.
The goal should be to keep the options available and front and center.
The best "reminder" of the option is when users see items available in the stores they frequent.
lmckenzie posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 2:06 PM
* "seemed to fit the game changing theme. radical even."*
Totally - rock on dudette!
* *
"I think even DAZ is discovering "replacing" V4 is a difficult task."
LOL, V4 is DAZ' Windows XP*.* After slaying all those dragons, without breaking a nail, while wearing a chainmail bikini, well to borrow from Chris Christie, "Somethings going down tonight sweetheart, but it ain't V4."
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
paganeagle2001 posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 3:45 PM
Well, one more in the gallery for V4WM:-
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
wolf359 posted Fri, 02 March 2012 at 7:26 PM
"Please tell us just one thing that Poser can do, that Houdini can not."
Yes I would like see an example as well
Cheers
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 1:09 AM
Come on guys Houdini isn't a good modeler I couldn't make a simple tree even except having to jump through a lot of hops. Like all expensive program it toots a of its 'advanced' features while it doesn't have the basic things to do what you really needs - making more details on your models. There are no shrink wrap modifier or ordinary retop tools for example. V-ray doesn't work. Did you really think it was so easy to compete with 3ds max and its 5000 plugins?
For animation it uses the same system like all others in the game animation business, i e you rig a whole mesh and clothing is part of the figure, pretty useless for a Poser user. The cloth simulator is a joke, compared to Marvelous Designer. Not only can it not do what Poser can do, it can not do what max and Maya can do, not what Marvelous Designer can do, not what zBrush can do and not what Vue can can do. All it can do is animation and a lot of boring effects.
wolf359 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 5:10 AM
"Come on guys Houdini isn't a good modeler"
And posers procedural modeling abilities are??
"I couldn't make a simple tree even except.."
Show us your tree you modeled in poser then
"There are no shrink wrap modifier or ordinary retop tools for example."
and how does the retopo tools in poser function
"V-ray doesn't work."
where is the Vray for poser option or Mantra
"Did you really think it was so easy to compete with 3ds max and its 5000 plugins?"
how does poser compare to MAX?
"The cloth simulator is a joke, compared to Marvelous"
How does poser compare to Marvelous?
" Not only can it not do what Poser can do, it can not do what max and Maya can do, not what Marvelous Designer can do, not what zBrush can do and not what Vue can can do. All it can do is animation and a lot of boring effects."
Ahhh yes you must mean those "boring Effects"that were used in:
Thor
Captain America
Green Lantern
puss n boots
Cars 2
Transformers
Pirates of the Carribean
the smurfs
the battle for LA
Inception
Clash of the titans
Iron man
harry potter
Hulk etc etc
Nice obfuscations.
But we asked you to name something Houdini can NOT do that poser CAN
...try again please.
Cheers
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 5:54 AM
I said: "..you rig a whole mesh and clothing is part of the figure, pretty useless for a Poser user"
If you want to dress a figure in 3 layer of clothing with a outfit consisting of 10-12 pieces where each piece including the figure is a fully seperate and complete mesh and follow the movements perfectly you may have to buy another program. Or please show me a video. Or maybe they didn't include that in the apprentice version? ;)
?
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 6:12 AM
wolf359 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 6:39 AM
You seem confused
Houdini is a professional Animation and VFX solution for hollywood films.
it is not targeted for individual s who collect gig s upon gigs of virtuual clothing to "dress up" with single figures with multiple pieces of clothing piled onto Vickyor Mikey
to render & post still renders in internet forum galleries.
"you rig a whole mesh and clothing is part of the figure, pretty useless"
But not useless In Maya ,MAX, softimage or any other industry standard Character program that is designed to ANIMATE characters in real time for Film,TV and Games.
you are NOT an animator you are a still gallery populator.
Try animating M4 wearing 12 conformers and you will see what I mean when your viewport bogs to a crawl
The only viable way with poser/DAz is to animate M4 naked
save the animation as a BVH ,pose file aniblock or whatever.
load the 12 other conformers and apply the motion to M4 and hope for no poke through when he starts doing back flips or karate kicks.
if you need to make changes ( inevitable if you do work for paying clients) , you have to go back to animating a naked version of M4 and reapply the new mocap to the full dressed version .
This is NOT an efficient way to produce animation with production deadlines or a weekly TV show schedule to meet.
The content for these types of professional productions is for single purpose use only based on the script and the specific
needs of the shots for that highly paid movie or TV project.
Cheers
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:10 AM
Would love to se the link to the character that had 250 pieces of clothing and had freebies every single day for X amount of months.
Even V4 at launch never had that.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:11 AM
Ok now we are coming somewhere you admit that Houdini cannot do what Poser can do but argue that the Poser way is not viable in animation.
Well not at the time, but that will probably change in the future.
Another shortcoming of Houdini is that it tries to do all things itself instead of playing nice with the others. Take trees again for example. Max, Maya and C4d all have the Vue plugin but not Houdini. And if Vue is overkill I use DPIT NatureSpirit a very nice small plugin. Or again if I were a motion studio or game maker I would buy Speedtree, a max plugin that cost twice as much as Houdini alone. This policy of to trying to do all things doesn't bode well.
You can get a little feeling for the future of animation by dressing a Poser figure halfway, import it into Marvelous Designer and add the outer clothing there. Then you see high quality animation of a sort not possible in Houdini. It is still a fledgling technology but it is the future, remember that you read it here first!
BTW wolf, I am not confused. I always read all threads at CG Society down to the last letter do you?
?
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:20 AM
Now lets see: Price of Houdini to get what you use, nearly $7,000:-
http://www.sidefx.com/images/stories/products/pricing/houdini_pricechart.pdf
If this price has changed, then please post the right price.
or
Get Poser Pro 2012 $499.99
http://poser.smithmicro.com/poser9-poserpro2012/index.html?/
Now, I know I can't possibly pay out that much for that version of Houdini, Sorry, don't mention Apprentice, I know there is a free version, but it does not have all the options.
Besides, unless you have a really good job, you must have saved for a long time to to get it.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vilters posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:23 AM
"Little One" was the ONLY figure that was released by ONE INDIVIDUAL who knew what he was doing.
He released, and he kept the momentum going in the Free stuff area for months.
He was prepared. He was ready.
he had GOOD promotion pictures.
he had lots of stuff "ready".
Unfortinately. BUMMER. The figure was not that good.
IF "Little One" would have had "human proportions? Arms, legs.
If she would have had a welded mesh?
If her neutral pose would ahve been a standard "T" Pose?
Lots of "IF" s,
but she kept soldering on for months.
WHY?
The creator was ready. Was motivated and kept the momentum going.
THAT is the ONLY way to succes...........
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:27 AM
Tip 2: build at least 500 items for the figure. 250 for give a way’s and 250 to into market. BE READY to promote your own figure for at least 6 months yourself.
I, me and myself...
Little one was never released with 250 items and I don't think even now, there are 250 items in the Market place.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
wolf359 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:36 AM
"Another shortcoming of Houdini is that it tries to do all things itself instead of playing nice with the others. Take trees again for example"
or internally generated procedural landscapes like
THIS
"You can get a little feeling for the future of animation by dressing a Poser figure halfway, import it into Marvelous Designer and add the outer clothing there. Then you see high quality animation of a sort not possible in Houdini."
Well you own poser and Marvelous
show me one of your examples of "high quality animation of a sort not possible in Houdini."
...today... not your theoretical wish list for the future.
"or
Get Poser Pro 2012 $499.99
http://poser.smithmicro.com/poser9-poserpro2012/index.html?/"
or get the 3D world Mag "innovation of the year" winner,DAZ studio Pro with Genesis for $0 until march 31
** http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d/free-3d-software-overview?home_f_btn=start**
"Now, I know I can't possibly pay out that much for that version of Houdini,"
No.....you cant.
but you dont have multi-million dollar contracts to do the VFX for the next Hollywood summer blockbuster thats why Houdini is not targeted/priced for your market.
Cheers
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:39 AM
As this was said about Poser, that is what I responded with.
Totally agree about Houdini.
Now it makes me think, that if someone has the expertise to use Houdini in the way that they have said etc., why would they think doing a WM for a figure needed someone else to do it.
Wouldn't they have the expertise to do it themselves?
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:50 AM
Attached Link: Runway of Korean Sport Brand ELORD
Example coming.Try to do that in Houdini..
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:53 AM
Unfortunatly that is not one of your examples, that is an example by someone else.
I think you were asked for something of yours?
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vilters posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:55 AM
@LROG
Corect, she never got to 250, but imagine what could have been IF she would have been a GOOD figure??????????
What if she would have had more "human" proportions.
What is she would have been a welded figure.
What if she would have been released in the standard "T" Pose?
What if???
Even with all these defaults she kept going on for months.
Thanks to ONE indivudual. and One individual only.
But some are missing the point here.
You do not build the best figure around and throw it on the forums.
Content creators will only start building when they see the $$$$ benefit.
You as the figure creator have to start the movement and keep it going untill the content creators pick up on it. And this can take months. YOU and only YOU can fill this time gap in the freestuff area untill the momentum kicks in. Untill the vendors kick in.
A new figure has to build a reputation, and only YOU can do that.
NEVER tell that YOU abandonned YOUR own figure to go work on the next one.
THAT spells "figure suicide".
THERE is NO better figure THEN YOURS, NOW and HERE, and for the next 6 months..
PERIOD.
BUT? First of all: YOU will have to believe THAT yourself.
If YOU can not , or are not willing, to cover those initial 6 months untill the vendors kick in? Forget it.
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:05 AM
Now lets go through those points:-
You said about releasing 250 items into the market etc. and implied that someone did. That is now incorrect.
Your what if's wishlist is of no concern as I didn't work on Little One.
I did not build V4WM, I beta tested and did the promos for her.
Agree content creators want to make money, but there are others like me, that do things for free.
As stated before I'm not the figures creator.
I've never said anywhere that I have "abandoned" any figure I have worked on to go on to the next one. I complete a project and then go on to testing the next one that I am given for beta testing. Funnily enough, that's what beta testers do.
Yet again, I'm not the creator of the figure and I belive in all project that I complete, otherwise I wouldn't do them.
I'm not getting into arguments, just stating the discrepancies in your assumptions.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
Male_M3dia posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:12 AM
Quote -
Example coming.Try to do that in Houdini..
You probably could. The author of that video simply made the clothes in Marvelous, exported the precanned annimations, the stage and the clothing to 3DS Max; added the lighting and cameras, then rendered the whole thing in Octane. If you can import the clothing and the stage to Houdini, you're already almost there.
EDIT:
But the point is, if you're doing Hollywood level animations, those outfits are one rigged object, not layered. They may have subcomponents to them, but the animator is treating that outfit as one. It would simply be inefficient and a pain to try to do all that as multiple things you have to individually manipulate.... in addition to the other items going on a true animation... not one person just walking down a static runway.
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:30 AM
Of course you can render in Houdini, as you can in any other program, Renderman for example. But the thing here is "how do you do the simulation in Houdini?"
This way of offering extremely expensive software to the Motion Studios, even in the million dollar class has been tried before. And may I say so not only in the film business. It didn't work then and it wont work now. The software that has hundreds of thousands of users always have the edge (one reason is that they earn more money..). At least it is nice to see that Houdini finally has got Speedtree after so long time but it will always lag behind.
"try to do all that as multiple things you have to individually manipulate.."
Nevertheless, it must be done.
Edit: What I'm meaning with telling all this is that Poser has a great future.
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:35 AM
As previously said, if you are doing Hollywood level animation, the clothes are not layered, they are modelled directly onto the character.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:40 AM
"As previously said, if you are doing Hollywood level animation, the clothes are not layered, they are modelled directly onto the character."
Yes of course, I said so myself..
But that is up to now. Change always occur in our lives.
Edit: Also it is naive to think that all animation is done only by the great film studios. There is computer gaming that already has begun to take up dynamic cloth. BTW the gaming industry turn over more money that the entire film business. There also is a great need for animation in adverticing, for TV, in business conferences, for event organizers and in education and fashion, etc etc. The list is endless.
vilters posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:43 AM
I stated clearly;
IF you want to bring out a new figure to compete with V4, THEN you would need at least 250 items to start the momentum with.
Hey, "IF" you want to compete with a figure (V4) that has thousands and thousands of items, in freestuff and market place????
I was moderate and conservative with my 250/250.
I never said Little One had 250 items. (She does not)
And ha-ha-ha-, I am in no way connected to Little One.
I only used her as the ONLY existing example of a well suported and well marketed figure by an individual.
Hey???
I admire the individuals and teams that bring new figures.
Really I do.
But do not ask why support stopped, if you do not start the momentum to get it going.
V4 and V4WM will survive automatically.
All others will need an injection.
Have a nice W-End and Happy Posering.
Tony
Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7,
P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:55 AM
Again, looking at the points:-
You did imply that a character came out with 250 items, you were proved wrong, so incorrect information that does not need any other use.
V4WM is not competing with V4,it's an enhancement.
The items available for V4 (clothing) etc., most can be converted in minutes with the Outfitter. So, those thousands of items now become available to V4WM for nothing less than the time required to do the conversion. other conversion systems are out there that have V4WM optionsin them now as well.
The Poser Place Team are individuals in threir own rights, but come together as a team to complete a project.
What exact support has stopped? Questions that are asked are answered, as promptly as possible. Clothing items, easy enough to convert with Outfitter, new items may be appearing by other PA's that I do not have information on.
Most Poser users already know that V4 and V4WM will survive as they have so much tied up in content.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 9:05 AM
When are M4 WM coming? I need it NOW.
Male_M3dia posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 9:08 AM
Quote - "As previously said, if you are doing Hollywood level animation, the clothes are not layered, they are modelled directly onto the character."
Yes of course, I said so myself..
But that is up to now. Change always occur in our lives.
That's just not how it works. That may work in simple scenes like you posted; but try to do an animation with a horde of aliens attacking an office building in New York. No studio in their right mind is going to animate the chararcter and EACH piece of clothing on every person or alien in the scene. The render would take forever to run and fix any pokethrough issues and it would consume a massive amount of memory and resources.
Studios always look for ways to do the best effects and save money doing them. Treating the character as a single object works towards that and makes room for more items and effects in a scene. Suggesting animating layered clothing on a fully rigged figure in a scene like Avatar is going to get you laughed off the studio lot.
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 9:15 AM
M4WM is being worked on at Poser Place by the team, but just because you want it NOW, does not mean you will get it NOW.
Like everything in this life, you just have to wait, just the same as everyone else.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
vintorix posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 9:23 AM
Allow me to paraphrase Marucha, "Can't you understand how a person can be interested in an idea without becoming its staunchest advocate?"
Can't you understand how a person can be interested in the use of dynamic cloth without claiming that it should be in mass scenes with thousands of actors?"
Great god!
In each individual scene a decision has to be made. Any combination of baked mesh and dynamic cloth is possible.
basicwiz posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 10:29 AM
Could we possibly move the Houdini discussion to a thread of it's own and not hyjack this one?
paganeagle2001 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 10:38 AM
I do hope so.
All the best.
LROG
Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!
meatSim posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 11:47 AM
Hmm that is an odd example to pick as 'the right way to launch and market' I have honestly never even heard of little one. Maybe I'm living in a cave or in the minority of the ignorant here, but to me the point doesnt resonate. Moreso I'd say the point strikes the opposite of what you claim. To my mind the point made there is marketing and launch tactics only take you so far.
The problem is that a lot of the market aren't forum dwellers either, or maybe just not 3d forum dwellers. They are gallery browsers, roleplayers, and many other things. Some may not consider 3d to be their hobby, maybe its gaming and they want a bio pic for their character, maybe they make comics or wall art making use of poser or ds.
Unless the product in question intrudes into whatever their 'home domain' is for their work via posted renders or advertising they may never know about it. For instance I found out about poser from my time playing SWG and being on those forums and seeing posted character renders. The only time I ever stumbled onto the rendo or RDNA forums was searching for freebies on google. Until september I didnt even know about antonia or any other 3rd party figures aside from apollo.. and I honestly thought he was just a cartooney superhero type character because that was the only render I saw using him.
Here is the problem though.. I havent done an actual finished render in over a month.
I've been working with poser place on the projects and whatnot and working on my own efforts, learning to model, learning to texture, trying to understand shaders and rigging. So I havent posted a render but my 3d hobby as never been even close to as fulfilling as it is right now. Thats great for me personally, but it doesnt help antonia out at all, or v4WM.
Its a tricky situation and poser place is a bit unique in its perspective and goals. People look at what we release and figure 'You want to push Antonia, you want to push V4WM or outfitter or etc etc" which is true to an extent. We believe in these figures and we want to let people know they are great. But Poser Place's goal is to push POSER. We want to see poser advance, and poser users advance. We want a vendor ecosystem that embraces advanced features.
If everything is still designed for poser 6 or 5 or 4 then the face poser has to the world as shown by its renders is the same face as poser 5 or 6. How does poser 6 compare with DS4? probably not well. But poser 9? With SSS, IDL and GC? very well.
Poser Place is run out of one persons pocket. would it be beneficial to our distribution of free items for us to advertise? Yes probably. Would it make sense? After seeing the amount of effort poured into these releases I'd have a tough time going back to the same people and asking them to take some cash out of their wallet, some food out of their families mouths, to make sure more people get their free product.
So maybe we need to cast the net a bit bigger. Maybe we need to ask this one small thing:
If you like the product, use it, render it and please post your renders and credit the product. Help spread the word.
Not really so much to ask I dont think.
Quote - "Little One" was the ONLY figure that was released by ONE INDIVIDUAL who knew what he was doing.
He released, and he kept the momentum going in the Free stuff area for months.
He was prepared. He was ready.
he had GOOD promotion pictures.
he had lots of stuff "ready".Unfortinately. BUMMER. The figure was not that good.
IF "Little One" would have had "human proportions? Arms, legs.
If she would have had a welded mesh?
If her neutral pose would ahve been a standard "T" Pose?Lots of "IF" s,
but she kept soldering on for months.WHY?
The creator was ready. Was motivated and kept the momentum going.
THAT is the ONLY way to succes...........
JAFO posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 12:36 PM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - V4-WM, unfortunately, came out about a month or so too late (after all those lovely V4 fixes). Plus the added step of converting the few conformers I do use makes me less inclined to try. I'd use her, but I'd still have to fix up her some of her joints in post or with morphs. So why bother?
Which joints?
- Elbows
V4-WM on the left in this case. The elbwo lacks an olecranon, a "funny bone" as it were, and instead looks like a bent swimming pool noodle. V4's arms are barely long enough as it is, but V4-WM's upper arms are quite a bit shorter.
apprised of the situation and taking appropriate actions
Y'all have a great day.
lmckenzie posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 1:33 PM
Steve Jobs was a True Believer and he was a marketing genius. He had a very good product in the Mac. He had a core of True Believers in that product, and yet for all that, the Mac never gained more than a minority part of the desktop market. Part of that may have been price. It seems hard to deny that part of it was the huge advantage that Windows always had in terms of applications. Flash forward to the iPod. It wasn’t a revolutionary product – there were mp3 players before. What the iPod had was iTunes, a huge library of music and an infrastructure designed to support it all. The same story holds true for the iPad and the gazillion ‘There’s an app for that’ goodies it has. No one else would even dare to launch a rival device without thousands of titles ready on day one and a developer community that would hopefully continue to crank out more.
A platform without content is DOA. A platform without a vigorous stream of new content is a dead man walking. The Poser market is consumer, content driven, just as much as the Apple products. You can have a great product with dedicated developers and a small enthusiastic fan base. You can recite the ‘Insanely Great’ mantra. You can say this is all you need, or just wait and see what’s coming next. You can say if it doesn’t exist, you have the tools, make your own. None of those are going to get you past niche status. Those dratted consumers (who happen to make up the majority of the market) want their tunes and their apps and they want them now - preferably wrapped up in one place with swipe your plastic and start enjoying ease. You can sit in an ivory tower making sport of the simple minded rabble down in the bazzar, who somehow fail to see the light. You can take comfort in the fact that you’re driving the future when everyone else clings to the past. You can also bring a knife to a gunfight but I don’t recommend it. If you want to change the rules then you have to understand the existing ones and actually win some games. The fact that someone is actually asking why things aren’t going as great as anticipated is a good first step. The end result though will probably be doubling down on the existing strategy and waiting for the magic to happen. It may indeed happen, but, as Damon Runyon said; "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money bets."
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
wolf359 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 1:38 PM
"Could we possibly move the Houdini discussion to a thread of it's own and not hyjack this one?"
Not necessary.
I believe that Paganeagle, Male_M3dia, and Myself have exhausted our generous supply of "troll feed" for this week, so back to the original topic.
The Perceived Lack of interest in Weight mapped content Might be attributable to the
"Legacy software conundrum"
Perhapssome have underestimated the number of people who have NOT upgraded to the latest version of
poser that is needed to utilize Weight mapping.
Cheers.
wolf359 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 1:53 PM
"A platform without content is DOA. A platform without a vigorous stream of new content is a dead man walking. The Poser market is consumer, content driven, just as much as the Apple products. You can have a great product with dedicated developers and a small enthusiastic fan base. You can recite the ‘Insanely Great’ mantra. You can say this is all you need, or just wait and see what’s coming next. You can say if it doesn’t exist, you have the tools, make your own. None of those are going to get you past niche status. Those dratted consumers (who happen to make up the majority of the market) want their tunes and their apps and they want them now - preferably wrapped up in one place with swipe your plastic and start enjoying ease."
Extremely well stated!! particularly the part in green text.
various Scattered Enthusiast who are "making something for her" is not going to get users excited about jumping all over the web to find the stuff
the App Store, Android Market,Amazon Market,Business model seems to be the prevailing successes.
Cheers
LilWolff posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 3:17 PM
apprised of the situation and taking appropriate actions
That is marketing!
You have acknowledged the "customer" without making an actual committment to what you will do. Which is perfectly acceptable since you won't know till you look at program.
Personally I value free more than I do paid. That does not mean I don't value paid but I have "paid my dues" for using it by giving money.
There is a change in free items over the years. A thank you, and credit use to be automatic but not anymore.
Perhaps, without it costing anything, you might borrow from Daz's marketing, (tell someone) and require one picture in any gallery with credits to be the cost of your gift.
You could go ever further, again no cost, and require that the url to the picture be sent to you.
With that you might consider having a Hall of Fame type of winner each week, month whatever you want. Base the winner on the picture that best show the advantages of your "gift".
Offer some of the 3D mags or 3d sites an interview about your place and what you are trying to do. It doesn't hurt to contact them and it is another no cost avenue you might explore.
Orally sell you product but don't over sell it. Everyone thinks they have the best thing since sliced break.
I am not in marketing for pay, I am bookkeeper. But in the past I have been involved in volunteer projects with very low cash flow or none at all.
I imagine all of you have too and you probably know marketing more than you think. :-)
I hope I have helped a little bit toward guiding you into some creative free market brain storming.
J
the renderosity spelling police may fix any errors - I am too tired to
SteveJax posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 3:31 PM
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 3:33 PM
Quote -
Yeah, it's a bit like that. :blink:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 3:37 PM
Quote - Its a tricky situation and poser place is a bit unique in its perspective and goals. People look at what we release and figure 'You want to push Antonia, you want to push V4WM or outfitter or etc etc" which is true to an extent. We believe in these figures and we want to let people know they are great. But Poser Place's goal is to push POSER. We want to see poser advance, and poser users advance. We want a vendor ecosystem that embraces advanced features. If everything is still designed for poser 6 or 5 or 4 then the face poser has to the world as shown by its renders is the same face as poser 5 or 6. How does poser 6 compare with DS4? probably not well. But poser 9? With SSS, IDL and GC? very well.
Poser Place is run out of one persons pocket. would it be beneficial to our distribution of free items for us to advertise? Yes probably. Would it make sense? After seeing the amount of effort poured into these releases I'd have a tough time going back to the same people and asking them to take some cash out of their wallet, some food out of their families mouths, to make sure more people get their free product.
So maybe we need to cast the net a bit bigger. Maybe we need to ask this one small thing:
If you like the product, use it, render it and please post your renders and credit the product. Help spread the word.
Not really so much to ask I dont think.
Well put. Thank you, MeatSim. This is the core of what all V4-WM/Outfitter/Antonia-WM/PoserPlace is all about: furthering Poser. The rest is just extraneous noise, really.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
LaurieA posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 4:04 PM
Standing by with the clipboard and the urinal for the Pissing Contest.
Laurie
Khai-J-Bach posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 4:11 PM
problem is, they be missing the target...
lmckenzie posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 4:19 PM
Oooh, Oooh #twitterfeed or RSS. Notify folks whenever a new product, freebie or render goes up.
OK, I'll go to my room.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 4:28 PM
Quote - Oooh, Oooh #twitterfeed or RSS. Notify folks whenever a new product, freebie or render goes up.
OK, I'll go to my room.
I like!! :biggrin:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
LaurieA posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 4:34 PM
Ok, now that is an AWESOME idea lmckenzie..lol. I'm pissed I didn't think of it ;).
Laurie
basicwiz posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 4:52 PM
Quote - Oooh, Oooh #twitterfeed or RSS. Notify folks whenever a new product, freebie or render goes up.
OK, I'll go to my room.
LaurieA posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 6:03 PM
Well, I was commenting mostly on the news feed idea ;).
Laurie
wolf359 posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 6:22 PM
"But Poser Place's goal is to push POSER. We want to see poser advance, and poser users advance. We want a vendor ecosystem that embraces advanced features.
If everything is still designed for poser 6 or 5 or 4 then the face poser has to the world as shown by its renders is the same face as poser 5 or 6. How does poser 6 compare with DS4? probably not well. But poser 9? With SSS, IDL and GC? very well.
"
Has anyone considered Lobbying Smith Micro to perhaps have an extended sale of poser pro at a severe discount to get more users (new & Old ) to get with the times so to speak.
Honestly all of DAZ's silly "industry shaking blah blah!!" Hyperbole aside.
It occurs to me that Daz & its PA's now have a great Excuse to abandon All legacy version of DS with content and focus
on taking advantage of the latest features of DS4 pro
effectively silencing those who would have complained
that they have not been able to afford DS4 pro.
Has a recent Poll been conducted somewhere to get some numbers on how many people are still running P6-P8?
Cheers
anupaum posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 7:01 PM
Quote - So maybe we need to cast the net a bit bigger. Maybe we need to ask this one small thing:
If you like the product, use it, render it and please post your renders and credit the product. Help spread the word.
Not really so much to ask I dont think.
I mention WM V4 every time I use her in a render. But it doesn't help much if no one bothers to look at my gallery . . .
Give it time. Weight-mapping will catch on, particularly with people who do animations. That, I believe, is where WM really shines!
lmckenzie posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 8:48 PM
"Well, I was commenting mostly on the news feed idea ;)." Yeah, I really don't know or give a twit about tweets but RSS is built into most browsers and provides a fast, easy way keep up with stuff you otherwise might not think to look for. Seems like an ideal tool for vendors. Make it so.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
wimvdb posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 10:40 PM
I don't want to squash a good idea, but you have to subscribe to tweets and RSS feeds.
How does that help finding new converts who have no knowledge of these subscriptions?
I believe in V4WM and use it now all the time. There are still some problems with clothing, but almost always either Outfitter, Wardrobe Wizard, Crossdresser 4 or occasionally a simple Copy Joint Zones will do the trick. It really depends on how the mesh was constructed on who does the best job. Usually this mesh has problem with old fashioned rigging as well.
I use outfitter as default and when i have a problem, I try the other ones. Up to now this works perfectly
About seeing V4WM in the galleries - unless it is explicitly mentioned, you will only see it in more extreme bending of arms and thighs which used to corrected with additional morphs or postworked.
The whole V4WM effort has been a splendid work and deserves a large audience
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 10:45 PM
Thanks Wim. And I agree with the "have to be subscribed to see" notion. My question is: where do Poser users 'hang out'? How do we best reach them? I've tweeted and facebooked and google+ -ed but real exposure? Not that much.
Newsletters?
Make freebies for magazines?
I've talked to three established vendors so far: same answer... "if the customer wants it I'll..."
Wish I understood all this better. :blink:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
wimvdb posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 11:07 PM
There is one thing you can do.
Ask the vendors to add an outfitter converted version of their clothing to their product for their customers convenience. It just takes a few minutes to create one.
If they do this, they will certainly try the outfit on V4WM and in case there are problems, they will either correct it in the weightmaps or leave it out completely. If they add it, it will be an additional incentive for potential buyers to get the product.
If you can get a few popular vendors on this track, it will surely catch on with the others.
Most of the clothing will need very little or no adjustment at all - and (some) of their customers will do it themselves anyway, so it should of benefit the to vendors as well
LaurieA posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 11:50 PM
One could put it on their homepage here, yes? In their sig. I subscribe to a lot of feeds that I'm interested to keep up with. If they don't have an RSS feed, I can't likely subscribe to em ;). And I am subscribed to a LOT.
Laurie
RobynsVeil posted Sat, 03 March 2012 at 11:54 PM
Quote - One could put it on their homepage here, yes? In their sig. I subscribe to a lot of feeds that I'm interested to keep up with. If they don't have an RSS feed, I can't likely subscribe to em ;). And I am subscribed to a LOT.
Laurie
I'm going to be totally "blonde" here (actually "grey" :lol: ) but how does one DO that??? Here I am enthusiastically going on about how this is an awesome idea, yet never done it myself! :blushing:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
SteveJax posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 1:25 AM
You usually subscribe to RSS feeds on websites by clicking on this icon: 
My Subscribed RSS feeds show up in Microsoft Outlook. Your RSS news feed programs may vary. If you click on that icon here on Rosity it will take you to their page of RSS feeds that allows you to add them to your IGoogle RSS feeds page in your browser.
RobynsVeil posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 1:34 AM
Thanks, Steve...
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
JohnDoe641 posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 1:54 AM
Quote - But do they bring "NEW" things???
Moving breasts?
What NEW figure does that? Now it is time to answer.
When I put my arms above my head? My breast go up.
When I lower my arms? My breasts go down.
I think this is the same for the Worlds population, east or west, north ot south.
Well Alyson had chest movement but Alyson2 doesn't. It's strange because Ryan2's chest/pec lifts/stretches when you lift the shoulder (not as much as it naturally should but at least it lifts up with the shoulder) and there doesn't seem to be a reason why Alyson2 is missing that. I sent SM a bug report about it when we were all first getting PP2012 at release and they said they'd look into it, so who knows if they'll ever fix it. I've simply used the breast control dependencies to lift when the shoulders are lifted and saved that as a new figure. Maybe we'll get an official fix one day, or not.
meatSim posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 1:59 AM
I also think there is support 'in the works' for things like v4WM and for poser 9 features in general. Its just taking time for vendors to become comfortable with the technology.
I read on deviant art that AlfaSeed's latest update of the Alice body shape was designed to work better with v4WM, Adamthwaites has Sofia, who lists v4WM as a compatible figure and incorporates SSS shader options (to be fair all but the most extreme morphs work pretty well with V4WM), and there are others out there and probably more in the works
Eric Walters posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 2:53 AM
Good thread- lots to think about. I'm aware of the "perfect" series. I bought the first two-before getting in on the V4-WM project. The Perfect series is good-but not free. And it does make the figure heftier in filesize.
The points I would make have already been made. It will take time for people to migrate to P9+. There are still folks using P7. And likely even folk on old computers using P4.
I was long aware of SSS when it came to Poser. I'd been tinkering with it for more than 3 years in LightWave. That in and of itself-was enough to get me to line up for Pro2012.
I was aware of weight mapping for much the same reason.
Someone who does not own a library of 3D tech books might not get excited when someone says SSS or WM. They have to SEE it in use. Then there are the people who like to render furbies and anime doll people- realism is not their interest.
There are likely plenty of folk who don't notice sphagetti arms or collapsed thighs on bending! Hard for me to believe! But then I can't live without SSS!
SteveJax posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 4:36 AM
You don't HAVE to like realism to like good bends.... just sayin'.....
lmckenzie posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 3:21 PM
You have to subscribe to RSS or Twitter etc. just as you have to register at many sites you visit. It’s part of a sustaining strategy to keep your product in front of people once they initially contact you. I don’t use social media, but I know that an awful lot of people do. It’s pretty much a requirement these days. None of these ideas works in a vacuum, they work in synergy. You also have to work to keep up a flow of information, tips, training, images, contests, upcoming products, a creator’s blog, user comments, bug reports whatever. A dead feed is probably going to get ignored or dropped. One thing a feed, FB page whatever can do is aggregate things. Right now, there’s Poser Place and RDNA and here and maybe more. Not everyone is going to run around looking for information/updates at all those places – they have other priorities.
“I read on deviant art that AlfaSeed's latest update of the Alice body shape was designed to work better with v4WM…” – Exactly the kind of information scattered around that could be aggregated ÷)
It certainly wouldn’t hurt to have a unique brand as well. Anastasia is part of BH’s (GND?) brand and people know that. DAZ had the Millennium brand and now Genesis. Right now there is Antonia/WM, V4WM & the other WM figures. Pick a name, NextGen, Phoenix, Alpha, Omega, Optima whatever and make that the umbrella for everything and people will come to recognize that the brand represents the cutting edge of Poser figures. Have a logo contest.
“Someone who does not own a library of 3D tech books might not get excited when someone says SSS or WM. They have to SEE it in use.
There are likely plenty of folk who don't notice spaghetti arms or collapsed thighs on bending!"
Very true. In a recent thread, someone was told that they couldn’t expect speed gains using Pro2012 because they were doing P4 style renders. Dollars to doughnuts, there are some people who upgraded just because it was the latest and greatest and are still not taking advantage of the new features. You can’t necessarily assume that every 9/2012 user is a techie who readily ventures beyond their comfort zone. Having a clothing script is nice and yes it might be easy, but having as much clothing as possible already adapted is better. Every extra “easy” step is going to shed a few more potential users. You should want Cousin Ray Ray and everyone else you can get on board.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
hornet3d posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 3:45 PM
I accept that money is tight at the moment and many a hobbist is going to stick with the Poser version they have even if they want the extra features. I also understand that vendors want to sell to the widest possible market however, taking this to extreme that would mean that those who are unable, unwilling or do not have the time to create their own characters and models would still be doing Poser 4 renders in Poser 9/2012.
That is why I fully support the Poser Place team, for not only allowing all the users of Poser9/2012 to take advantage of the new features, but also trying and help those that want to learn the new skills.
It will take the venders a while to catch up, after all it is only relatively recently that products have been marked for Poser 8 or later and there are already a couple of charaters that have the both non and SSS materials.
I can however understand the impatience of some who want to see Poser progress and not be held back by older software. I am all for backward compatability, where possible, but there has to be a limit to how far this can hold back progress (just my view mind).
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
JAFO posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 5:29 PM
... one thing i don't see mentioned in this thread that you may want to consider.... DAZ owns the V4 mesh and imposed clear limitations on what Poser Place could do with that mesh, therefore limiting what could be achieved .... i for one do not understand these limitations as there are hundreds even thousands of figures that have been released , both free and commercially, that have altered these meshes almost beyond recognition... every morph alters the mesh.... why was this project treated differently?
i totally understand Phantom3d not wanting to risk legal action thereby risking the site, i just don't understand why this is any different than other instances, are we all now forbidden from creating alterations that may improve the figure? are those who altered it before at risk of legal action?i wish someone would clarify this...
i joined Poser Place as a member just as i am a member here i do not represent Poser Place, just as i do not represent Renderosity, these views/concerns are my own. I just want to insure i don't get my own ass in a wringer trying to help solve some of these issues...
Y'all have a great day.
lmckenzie posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 6:57 PM
"DAZ owns the V4 mesh and imposed clear limitations on what Poser Place could do with that mesh"
What are the restrictions & where are they documented? I ask the latter only because I fear the slippery slope of who said what :-)
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
meatSim posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 9:39 PM
From my understanding we could not include anything that would require re-distributing any portion of the origional mesh, grouping, rigging or any other part of daz's intellectual property. We were limited to what the script could be made to do to the end users copy of v4. Anything else would have required redistributing v4 or a derivitive of her.
I believe there was a thread about it at RDNA and one of our members was in direct contact with daz over what could and could not be done.
Cage posted Sun, 04 March 2012 at 9:59 PM
The RDNA thread on the topic is here:
Quote - I just want to insure i don't get my own ass in a wringer trying to help solve some of these issues...
If in doubt, contact DAZ with your concerns, as shvrdavid did for the thread at the link.
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Eric Walters posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 3:21 AM
Steve
You mean people care that Furbie or Akira5.0 bend naturally-when the figure itself is not really human looking? I guess it won't look like a real Furbie? :-)
Quote - You don't HAVE to like realism to like good bends.... just sayin'.....
Eric Walters posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 3:26 AM
Quote -
“Someone who does not own a library of 3D tech books might not get excited when someone says SSS or WM. They have to SEE it in use.
There are likely plenty of folk who don't notice spaghetti arms or collapsed thighs on bending!"Very true. In a recent thread, someone was told that they couldn’t expect speed gains using Pro2012 because they were doing P4 style renders. Dollars to doughnuts, there are some people who upgraded just because it was the latest and greatest and are still not taking advantage of the new features. You can’t necessarily assume that every 9/2012 user is a techie who readily ventures beyond their comfort zone. Having a clothing script is nice and yes it might be easy, but having as much clothing as possible already adapted is better. Every extra “easy” step is going to shed a few more potential users. You should want Cousin Ray Ray and everyone else you can get on board.
"That would have been BB- and he was right- and many people don't actually KNOW how to actually load a script into Poser- and probably find Outfitter intimidating.
Eric Walters posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 3:40 AM
I am a team member-but only speak for myself- "The opinion I state is solely my opinion and not that of PoserPlace, or the UN General Assembly"
That said-I suspect it has to do with Daz wanting people to use Genesis rather than V4. Marketing is the word. I see many comments by Daz users saying- V4 is PAST-why use it when we have Genesis?
The more natural bending was what got ME interested in Genesis. DAZ also decided not to offer a higher poly Genesis for Poser users. Since the free software month-I have DS4Pro. I find that I can get more realism out of Poser2012-and I also find it far more flexible.
OT:
Right now I see an add banner for Reality 2 for DS, a render of Danae's Dublin character is the pic used. It looks remarkably like what I just rendered-in Poser. I've yet to see DS offer that sort of realism
Quote - ... one thing i don't see mentioned in this thread that you may want to consider.... DAZ owns the V4 mesh and imposed clear limitations on what Poser Place could do with that mesh, therefore limiting what could be achieved .... i for one do not understand these limitations as there are hundreds even thousands of figures that have been released , both free and commercially, that have altered these meshes almost beyond recognition... every morph alters the mesh.... why was this project treated differently?
i totally understand Phantom3d not wanting to risk legal action thereby risking the site, i just don't understand why this is any different than other instances, are we all now forbidden from creating alterations that may improve the figure? are those who altered it before at risk of legal action?i wish someone would clarify this...
i joined Poser Place as a member just as i am a member here i do not represent Poser Place, just as i do not represent Renderosity, these views/concerns are my own. I just want to insure i don't get my own ass in a wringer trying to help solve some of these issues...
Eric Walters posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 3:47 AM
Others have brought up the idea of a showy character that would demonstrate why people might want to upgrade to P9/2012. I'd say Danae's Dublin would be a good candidate-she's somewhat unique and Danae has done a fine job with the texture and SSS shader
Maybe some animated yoga poses with and without WM would be a good visual.
Dublin's render quality is very high- I mentioned the Reality2.0 banner using a Lux render of Dane's Dublin is currently at the top of this page. Why? It's gorgeous-and evidently the quality I see in Poser is not obtainable with DS.
The "Perfect" series creators have animated images showing the before and after-
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 6:35 AM
I am fairly ignorant regarding the technicalities of this at present, but I have been wondering how the "Perfect" series morph fixes would work WITH V4WM?
I don't know exactly how these available bodyshape fixes currently work - are they injecting morphs into the V4 mesh?
I have started playing around converting some characters I've created in my runtime to V4WM and converting clothing figures with the Poser Place clothing converter is also straight forward and seems to work well. I've had mixed results with the limited selection of hair figures I currently have.
Posing a weight mapped character certainly seems way more intuitive...
But I'd certainly be keen to implement fixes for things like the elbow bones (I mean the appearance of there being bones there rather than functional rigging bones) etc. too.
Would it perhaps make sense for the creators of the "Perfect" product line and other vendors creating such body shape fixes, to look at versions of their products, in due course, that work on V4WM?
I don't currently have any of the "Perfect" fixes and probably wouldn't go down that route due to their not (as far as I'm aware) working with weight mapping... and, as a Poser 9 user, I would see this as the way forward for anything I was going to add to my runtime.
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 7:05 AM
Further to that last paragraph in my previous post... I should clarify that I don't know whether the available bodyshape fixes work or not with V4WM.
Has anyone tried applying any of these available fixes to V4WM?
That would be interesting to know...
It seems to me that these fixes and V4WM could perhaps compliment each other, in due course... rather than necessarily being alternate routes to take?
LaurieA posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 7:22 AM
Because it's V4WM and because Mike had to build her rig from scratch and because he's a perfectionist, I'm thinking that now that she's weight mapped she doesn't need the perfect moprhs anymore. But that's just an educated guess ;).
Laurie
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 8:09 AM
Thanks :-)
Is the point of most of these morph-based (?) bodyshape fixes more to address joint bending issues and distortions than anything else?
On that basis then sure, I can understand that the re-rigging, as an integral part of the weight mapping, should presumably sort all this sort of stuff out on its own... and then I shouldn't need them, if I'm adopting V4WM... which I am.
As I understand it, the V4WM injection corrects and improves the way that the existing bodyshape mesh behaves when it bends and flexes?
Does it actually somehow reshape and refine the base (static) bodyshape mesh a little too?
I guess the latter is more about how anatomically "realistic" (or whatever) a shape the original figure's base mesh itself is... and that's something else altogether isn't it? As in aesthetics rather than functionality perhaps... these crossover I guess though.
hornet3d posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 10:14 AM
The 'Perfect' series of fixes work with V4WM, or at least I have had no problems with them working. I converted a 'virgin' version of V4 to V4WM and then added the fixes as per instructions that came with the fixes. I used them at first when I noticed that the first version of V4WM had a couple of areas that I wanted to change. There has been an update of V4WM since then, but they do work, how much you want to tweak them is a personal issue.
Others will also say that they are not needed and increase the size of V4. The first point I suggest is subjective, the second is true although I have not noticed any dramatic change in loading or render times and disk space is relatively cheap.
I also have Va Va Va Voom added to my main character as I used in in the non-weight mapped versions and wanted to copy my character as faithfully as possible in the V4WM version. No doubt I could have done a copy without Va Va Va Voom and just used V4WM but I had the settings and it was a quick fix.
Having said all that I am not suggesting that the fixes are the way to go but since their use was questioned I thought I would pass on my experiences and I will not be removing them any time soon.
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
Diogenes posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 10:34 AM
These are the conditions Daz 3D gave us to work with.
***"Having discussed this internally, the view is that as long as the new ***
***weight map can be separately shipped without needing to include any ***
***proprietary DAZ data (models, weight maps, material definitions, etc.), ***
***then it's fine - note that this would preclude converting a DAZ figure ***
***to weight-mapping and then tweaking those weights. The distribution ***
method proposed here http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forum...ead_id=2836045
looks as if it should work."
***The figure Victoria 4 is in whole owned by Daz 3D. That includes not only the mesh but also the rig (cr2) the morphs and the materials as well as the shape of the figure. ALL of those are proprietary and copyrighted.
Many people may not know that but yes all of that is proprietary. Regardless of what Daz 3D may have ALLOWED others to do in the past with shipping morphs or clothing and so on, the conditions above are what we had to work with. And the point here is that Daz 3D has only allowed others to ship things like morphs or clothing that uses the original joints, they do not have to allow it.
There are no complaints in this from Poser Place or myself. To be honest I am surprised they said yes in any form. But they did say yes and they did not have to. So for that I am gratefull that I was allowed to work with the figure. Arguing the legalities or protecting a site really is secondary to abiding by the wish of the owner and creator of the figure. I am sure I could argue legal points and try to worm my way around some of the restrictions but I did not want to do that. I would rather follow their guidelines as set out.
There were many things I would have liked to do that would have improved the figure. Such as changing the proportions and shape as well as recutting the mesh into groups that better fit weight mapping. I was not able to do so because such things could not be shipped as part of the project.
That said, there were still many things that could be done with the figure and still follow the stated wish of the creator. I made a new rig from scratch and weight mapped the largest part of the figure while still maintaining the most use of morphs and secondary figures available for the V4 figure.
Is she perfect? No she is a long way from perfect, but much improved in an out of the box state and now without all the extra magnets and JCM morphs which made her so cumbersome.
There is room for many things to be added. Things that we could not ship. JCMs are still a valuable addition even to a weight mapped figure. Perhaps some muscle and tendon morphs that will work like JCMs would also be an improvement. If these type of things will be allowed as additions to the figure, I dont know, you would have to ask Daz 3D it is their figure. I do know they were something we could not include with V4 WM under the charter we were given.
Some things, like the bent straw effect on an elbow, will be present when dealing with any mesh in varying degrees depending on the mesh itself. This is simply because mesh no matter how much we want it to does not behave like human flesh. Weight mapping can do many things but not all. With a morph you can use all directions to move the vertice. Weight mapping will only move the vertice in the direction of the bend or reversed with a bulge map if desired.
In combination the two will work very well together. With my own figures I use both the weight mapping and JCM morphs. The same with older style P6 rigging nothing new. There are even ways to practically eliminate texture streatch. Many ideas and methods of bulding figure improvements. Getting those into use in the mainstream is a different story, it seems almost immpossible to do. I dont care about nor want to argue the reasons for that.
Well we did the best we could with V4 given that people wanted it right now and not later. There are always the folk who come along to these threads to tear down anything you build or those who wish to build a name for themselves at others expense. Seems to be the nature of things.
So in closing, take it or leave it. But the effort of building V4 WM was offered in the spirit of building something for all of us in the community.
Cheers,
Mike.
hornet3d posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 10:47 AM
Quote - So in closing, take it or leave it. But the effort of building V4 WM was offered in the spirit of building something for all of us in the community.
Cheers,
Mike.
A spirit which I think should be above any critisium and one I support whole heartedly. I am happily using V4WM and thank all those in the team that gave all their time and hard work to make it happen. I doubt there will ever be a perfect figure and the team had to work with the resirictions stated and considering this the result was first class. Perfect she is not but she is very much improved and has given a V4 a new lease of life at nil cost (assuming you were upgrading to Poser 9/2012 anyway).
I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 11:14 AM
Absolutely - as hornet3d said.
To clarify, certainly no criticism from me relative to the V4 WM injection product!
Thanks to Mike and all involved for such a stunning effort in achieving it.
It is INCREDIBLY easy to use and, as a product, works PERFECTLY in terms of what it sets out to do and does, in my experience of using it ;-)
As a relative newcomer here, I was more interested in where these "Perfect" morph products sit... given that SURELY in due course, V4WM (and other weight mapped versions of these most widely invested in characters, hopefully) are likely to come to the fore more and more... I would guess that's a question of software take up (as in Poser 9 / 2012 userbase expansion more than anything else).
The high ratings that the "Perfect" products apparently have in the Renderosity store, would seem to indicate the status quo with the market... right now?
In that sense, V4WM must still be a little, if not a lot, ahead of where a good number of Poser users are at perhaps?
But in itself, V4WM should be seen as a big incentive for Poser users to upgrade to Poser 9 / 2012, I reckon.
I am certainly looking forward to the "more coming" on the weight mapped front, from Poser Place, to be sure... just got M4 complete from Daz as it was, probably still is, on sale there at the minute...
...and thinking I should probably really have forked out for Poser 2012 instead of just Poser 9, on this front... ah well, I guess SM will let me sidegrade in due course, when I eventually have time to play around with some WM painting myself ;-)
basicwiz posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 11:27 AM
The Perfect line is a wonderful solution to a problem that, prior to Poser 9, had no solution. It is my suspicion that the "Perfect" products are of much more use to those running <Poser 9 than to those of us who can take full advantage of WM technology. I bought a few of them before V4WM came out, and found them very useful. Do I still use them? Nope. For my purposes, they are redundant. But if I was stuck in Poser 8, I wouldn't part with them!
There is nothing wrong with using the products that fulfill your needs... and that is no slight on V4WM. I've been running her for a month now and continue to be blown away.
My thanks to the Poser Place team, as well!
lkendall posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 11:48 AM
What can be done for V4~WM by rigging, bulge-maps, and weight-maps has been done. The CR2 is much cleaner and leaner without all the magnets of V4.2. The bending is much improved, and the morphs and characters still work as well as ever. One can convert V4.2's clothing to V4~WM, so the large investment that many people have in Generation 4 figures can be leveraged in the new versions of Poser.
A number of things could add to the utility of V4~WM. A good set of bump/displacement maps, and even some normal maps (to take advantage of the channel) could add interesting details and variety. Morphs could add the finishing touches to some areas (elbows, knees, etc.) Poses that take the new more realistic bending of the figure into account would be helpful.
There are still people using Poser 4, so the Perfect line has a secure future, and many can attest to the usefulness of the product. This is also an effort to extend the utility of the Generation 4 DAZ figures , and benefits those who have a large investment in those figures, and who use Poser versions prior to P9/PP2012. As such the Perfect line deserves recognition and appreciation.
PoserPlace is intent upon stimulating the Poser economy, and offering opportunities to vendors. But, the Poser community does not have to wait. There are many people with skills who can contribute to the effort, and we would all benefit. So, how about some renders in the galleries of the Poserverse?
lmk
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.
Eric Walters posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 12:04 PM
Thanks Mike-I'm glad you responded.
For those who don't know Diogenes/Mike is also Phantom3D- the person who provided us with a place (PoserPlace) to work on V4-WM-and did the weight mapping-and editing in response to our testing.
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 3:48 PM
Its great to make all of your aquaintance here :-)
As I said in my earlier post, I'm just a newb here and to Poser... hence I'm coming straight in with Poser 9. So, lucky in that respect I guess!
I have a background, originally, in traditional drawing and painting... pencil, paper, oil paint and canvas... but, have in fact been a programmer for the last decade or so and am just trying to rediscover my creative roots a little. I haven't done anything much creative for most of that time... just getting back on the horse.
I didn't have a big legacy of runtime figures. But I have nevertheless invested in what are otherwise quite old stock figures on the face of it... V4 and now M4... and this was predominanty because I can see there seems to be a future in them, because of the V4WM and ongoing M4WM projects... because of the wealth of marketplace stuff available for them too, of course... but I'd say the weight mapping efforts were more a factor for me.
I don't know what proportion of the overal new user demographic I would represent in taking this view... but its probably not insubstantial? Anyway, just saying...
In any case I see the Poser Place efforts as highly commendable and worthy.
When you're talking about creating new texture maps, to go along with V4WM, adding improved surface detail using bump/displacement and/or normal maps, are you thinking greater surface skin details like, for instance - micro wrinkles and creases round fingers... in the interiors of elbow and knee joints etc, more, finer detailed popped veins, inter-pore skin hatching (which is especially evident on human hands close up)... palm creases... some more micro fine body hair... that sort of stuff?
Small tendons in hands, running off from the knuckles perhaps? Tendons on backs of knees, in feet... could displacement be used to suggest that sort of thing or would it involve a morph?
I'm possibly rambling now... sorry!
Would these types of displacement or bump maps be created by processing photographs or would they normally be "painted" (just referencing photos) in something like ZBrush or Photoshop CS5 Extended?
(trying to stay on the thread here - honestly)
;-)
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 3:51 PM
Attached Link: Smith Micro Poser Deal
...and as if by magic this just dropped into my inbox:http://my.smithmicro.com/marcom/eblasts/poser/20120303/index-web.html
Smith Micro are doing 50% off Poser just now... its a good time to upgrade for anyone wanting to move to V4WM?
;-)
moriador posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 4:36 PM
Quote - Well we did the best we could with V4 given that people wanted it right now and not later. There are always the folk who come along to these threads to tear down anything you build or those who wish to build a name for themselves at others expense. Seems to be the nature of things.
Relax, please. No one in this thread is tearing anything down. Pointing out a couple of minor flaws and suggesting that one prefers to use a different figure is not tearing down your work. Really. It isn't.
As for "those who wish to build a name for themselves," well, if you mean me, um, nope. I don't post to galleries, I don't make content, I don't take part in contests. I just buy stuff, ask advice on bug fixes, and occasionally comment in forums while I'm waiting for Poser to finish a render. I don't need to build a name because I'm just a customer. That's it.
You all may not be particularly interested in what Poser content customers think, as opposed to all of the creative people "in the community" like yourselves, and that's fine. I thought that the way the OP was worded that you guys might possibly find some value in the opinion of someone who is not so deeply involved in the creative community. But if not, again, that's fine.
But please don't be offended by my tiny criticism of your fine work. I certainly did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings, and I'm totally sorry if I did.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
RobynsVeil posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 4:48 PM
So, you're now saying that V4-WM's apparently slow acceptance in the community isn't due to those flaws you pointed out?
The thread wasn't really a critique venue for V4-WM's flaws. It was more about why one doesn't see more about V4-WM in the marketplace. The impression you gave was that the largest obstacle - based on your preferences, of course - to acceptance by vendors were those flaws you pointed out.
I'm not after praise (besides which, it's not my work, so praise is irrelevant to me anyway). I was trying to explore Poser Community penetration of this weight-mapped version based on what was visible in the Marketplace.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
meatSim posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 5:07 PM
In case you hadn't stopped by poser place...
http://www.poserplace.phantom3d.net/forums/index.php
Consider this your invitation!! :P
Ok to be honest the invitation is and has been pretty much open to all. But you seem like you might enjoy it. Feel free to stop by, poke around and see if there is anything you'd like to get involved in!
more to the subject of your post..
You can use displacement for a lot of things to do with detail. Generally finer detail as far as anatomical stuff. For instance the little bones and tendons in the hand might work better than the tendons at the back of the knee. Micro wrinkles might be better served as bump or normal mapped. I'm not overly sure of the specifics.
A lot of displacement maps are done in zbrush or something similar where they sculpt a higher res mesh and then generate displacement maps to be applied to a lower res one. That may be just because there are more people with the talent to sculpt that kind of detail than to draw it. It wouldnt be quite like drawing/painting a picture of someone because the only really relevant information is height. So you are looking at greyscale where white is highest and dark is lowest. Also they would have to be painted onto the UV template so its a distorted image to start with. Probably quite challenging but not impossible.
If you wanted to work on something like that in a positive environment, with a lot of knowledgeable and generously helpfull people.. poser place is definitly worth a look. oh... and Antonia could use some of those maps.... just sayin!
Quote - Its great to make all of your aquaintance here :-)
As I said in my earlier post, I'm just a newb here and to Poser... hence I'm coming straight in with Poser 9. So, lucky in that respect I guess!
I have a background, originally, in traditional drawing and painting... pencil, paper, oil paint and canvas... but, have in fact been a programmer for the last decade or so and am just trying to rediscover my creative roots a little. I haven't done anything much creative for most of that time... just getting back on the horse.
I didn't have a big legacy of runtime figures. But I have nevertheless invested in what are otherwise quite old stock figures on the face of it... V4 and now M4... and this was predominanty because I can see there seems to be a future in them, because of the V4WM and ongoing M4WM projects... because of the wealth of marketplace stuff available for them too, of course... but I'd say the weight mapping efforts were more a factor for me.
I don't know what proportion of the overal new user demographic I would represent in taking this view... but its probably not insubstantial? Anyway, just saying...
In any case I see the Poser Place efforts as highly commendable and worthy.
When you're talking about creating new texture maps, to go along with V4WM, adding improved surface detail using bump/displacement and/or normal maps, are you thinking greater surface skin details like, for instance - micro wrinkles and creases round fingers... in the interiors of elbow and knee joints etc, more, finer detailed popped veins, inter-pore skin hatching (which is especially evident on human hands close up)... palm creases... some more micro fine body hair... that sort of stuff?
Small tendons in hands, running off from the knuckles perhaps? Tendons on backs of knees, in feet... could displacement be used to suggest that sort of thing or would it involve a morph?
I'm possibly rambling now... sorry!
Would these types of displacement or bump maps be created by processing photographs or would they normally be "painted" (just referencing photos) in something like ZBrush or Photoshop CS5 Extended?
(trying to stay on the thread here - honestly)
;-)
Glitterati3D posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 5:21 PM
Quote - ...and as if by magic this just dropped into my inbox:
http://my.smithmicro.com/marcom/eblasts/poser/20120303/index-web.html
Smith Micro are doing 50% off Poser just now... its a good time to upgrade for anyone wanting to move to V4WM?
;-)
Wow! This is a great deal! I just upgraded another license for myself!
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 5:27 PM
Cool - many thanks!
Invitation accepted... I'd love to contribute... if there's something I'd be useful for!
I'll head over and sign up and take a look around whilst I wait for my shiny new 50% discounted upgrade to Poser Pro 2012 to download ;-)
Eric Walters posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 6:02 PM
Hi MonkeyCloud
If you have not already got one- a graphics tablet is a good way to bring your 2d skills into 3D
And yes- you've summed up what most of mean by adding more realistic details. Micro-wrinkles, tendons, pores, etc!
Quote - Its great to make all of your aquaintance here :-)
As I said in my earlier post, I'm just a newb here and to Poser... hence I'm coming straight in with Poser 9. So, lucky in that respect I guess!
I have a background, originally, in traditional drawing and painting... pencil, paper, oil paint and canvas... but, have in fact been a programmer for the last decade or so and am just trying to rediscover my creative roots a little. I haven't done anything much creative for most of that time... just getting back on the horse.
I didn't have a big legacy of runtime figures. But I have nevertheless invested in what are otherwise quite old stock figures on the face of it... V4 and now M4... and this was predominanty because I can see there seems to be a future in them, because of the V4WM and ongoing M4WM projects... because of the wealth of marketplace stuff available for them too, of course... but I'd say the weight mapping efforts were more a factor for me.
I don't know what proportion of the overal new user demographic I would represent in taking this view... but its probably not insubstantial? Anyway, just saying...
In any case I see the Poser Place efforts as highly commendable and worthy.
When you're talking about creating new texture maps, to go along with V4WM, adding improved surface detail using bump/displacement and/or normal maps, are you thinking greater surface skin details like, for instance - micro wrinkles and creases round fingers... in the interiors of elbow and knee joints etc, more, finer detailed popped veins, inter-pore skin hatching (which is especially evident on human hands close up)... palm creases... some more micro fine body hair... that sort of stuff?
Small tendons in hands, running off from the knuckles perhaps? Tendons on backs of knees, in feet... could displacement be used to suggest that sort of thing or would it involve a morph?
I'm possibly rambling now... sorry!
Would these types of displacement or bump maps be created by processing photographs or would they normally be "painted" (just referencing photos) in something like ZBrush or Photoshop CS5 Extended?
(trying to stay on the thread here - honestly)
;-)
monkeycloud posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 6:33 PM
Yup - got an A5 Bamboo at present... (in fact I like the A5 size of that personally - which is good cos I couldn't justify spending more on that at the time!) I haven't played with using it much for 3d yet.
Well a bit of playing with it in Sculptris... which is a lot of fun to use I have to say. Although the meshes I've got out of that so far were way too many polygons to use in anything else...
I just got hold of Photoshop CS5 Extended and it seems that this lets you import a mesh and then "sculpt" or "paint" auto-UV-mapped normal or bump textures (?) onto the surface of that mesh... just need to find some more time to explore that really I guess.
I've been getting to grips with what I guess are considered more "traditional" modelling techniques in firstly Shade and then Hexagon, since getting hold of the zero price license for that at the start of the year... started out attempting to learn Blender, but hit a brick wall with that cos I'm not good with keystrokes! Having grasped more of the fundamentals I might try Blender again in due course I guess. Anyway...
...so much great stuff to play with! It's a good time for CG art right now I think :-)
lmckenzie posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 8:51 PM
I think it's too early to be too concerned. The economy has no doubt kept people from upgrading what is for most a discretionary piece of software - especially if it would entail a hardware upgrade as well. There's also the XP factor. At some point, things are 'good enough' for many people that they will jump off the upgrade treadmill for a while.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
SteveJax posted Mon, 05 March 2012 at 11:17 PM
Quote - Steve
You mean people care that Furbie or Akira5.0 bend naturally-when the figure itself is not really human looking? I guess it won't look like a real Furbie? :-)
Quote - You don't HAVE to like realism to like good bends.... just sayin'.....
Take the Freebie Bender Robot for example. He's not real but people will want him to be able to bend the same way the cartoon bends.... 
moriador posted Tue, 06 March 2012 at 2:21 AM
Quote - So, you're now saying that V4-WM's apparently slow acceptance in the community isn't due to those flaws you pointed out?
No. I'm not saying that. The issue isn't so black and white. (Though it does appear that the flaws I see are not visible to the rest of the community). I'm apologizing because it seems that mentioning the flaws I noticed was hurtful to the creator, and that was not my intent.
My intent was to suggest that the timing of the release of V4-WM occurred when all sorts of other fixes were also being released for V4, such that V4-WM had even more competition than she would have had otherwise. IN THAT CONTEXT, any visible flaws showing up in renders and promos might be taken by those who had not yet upgraded to Poser 9/2012 as making the cost of the upgrade and the minor hassle of using a new technology not worth the effort.
I don't think I was or am being at all unreasonable in suggesting this might be a factor behind a somewhat sluggish or less than enthusiastic response by ordinary Poser users such as myself.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
Diogenes posted Tue, 06 March 2012 at 3:01 AM
Quote - > Quote - Well we did the best we could with V4 given that people wanted it right now and not later. There are always the folk who come along to these threads to tear down anything you build or those who wish to build a name for themselves at others expense. Seems to be the nature of things.
Relax, please. No one in this thread is tearing anything down. Pointing out a couple of minor flaws and suggesting that one prefers to use a different figure is not tearing down your work. Really. It isn't.
As for "those who wish to build a name for themselves," well, if you mean me, um, nope. I don't post to galleries, I don't make content, I don't take part in contests. I just buy stuff, ask advice on bug fixes, and occasionally comment in forums while I'm waiting for Poser to finish a render. I don't need to build a name because I'm just a customer. That's it.
You all may not be particularly interested in what Poser content customers think, as opposed to all of the creative people "in the community" like yourselves, and that's fine. I thought that the way the OP was worded that you guys might possibly find some value in the opinion of someone who is not so deeply involved in the creative community. But if not, again, that's fine.
But please don't be offended by my tiny criticism of your fine work. I certainly did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings, and I'm totally sorry if I did.
moriador: No the name doesnt ring any bells, I dont think I remember anything you have ever written. Did we have problems in the past? If so I have forgotten, my appologies. If you have been particularly nasty in this thread I wouldnt know, you see I havent read it, but for the last page. I rarely read anything here these days unless someone points me to it.
I have my own forums to keep up on and then I am in the middle of M4 WM so I rarely have much time to come here and read.
No not pointed at anyone in particular so dont take it personally, its not about you. Rather in general that is the way these type of threads go, and its not just in the Poserverse, this is mostly true throughout the world. There are those who try to build and those who try to tear it down. If you feel it pertains to you, then by all means be my guest. But certainly not intended by me.
Cheers,
Mike
P.S. In this case I was pointed here to answer the legal shipping reasons we did things the way we did, so I never got farther into this thread, sorry.
MistyLaraCarrara posted Tue, 06 March 2012 at 10:30 AM
this is as far as i got with mapping Alyson2 to V3. (in wings)
lips and inner ear. the eyes and eye area are difficile. lol
a lot harder than i imagined. couldn't find my unagi headspace.
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moriador posted Wed, 07 March 2012 at 2:25 AM
Quote -
moriador: No the name doesnt ring any bells, I dont think I remember anything you have ever written. Did we have problems in the past? If so I have forgotten, my appologies. If you have been particularly nasty in this thread I wouldnt know, you see I havent read it, but for the last page. I rarely read anything here these days unless someone points me to it.
Quite amusing. I should be more cautious in presuming that responses posted in a thread are actually to that thread, rather than to a single post within it. I think this presumptive tendency may be the origin of a very large proportion of misunderstandings in forums.
I shall consider myself summarily dismissed then. ;)
I've never bought anything from you, so your name doesn't ring any bells with me either.
PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.
monkeycloud posted Wed, 07 March 2012 at 4:57 AM
Maybe things have gotten a bit frayed towards the end of this thread? ;-)
Moriador, personally I did get your earlier point about V4's elbows.
In my understanding, that's not a V4WM issue though so much as its an inherent limitation of the V4 mesh... and as Phantom3d Mike said, that was simply not something they could make distributable modifications to, as part of the weight-mapping injection package....as obviously V4 and her mesh is Daz's baby...and they needed to work with the existing geometry in that respect.
The unrelated "Perfect" line currently highly visible in the Renderosity marketplace aims to address such issues in the OLD V4, via morphs... but its also implementing all sorts of animated morphs apparently.
There's substantial overlap there, as I now see it, with what weight mapping achieves - and weight mapping resolves the core posing issues much more profoundly than morphs and with less overhead, as I understand it.
The weight mapped solution works better with conforming clothing too I think?
Posing the weight mapped V4 is like working with a whole new, much more fluid character, in my experience.
But, in my very humble opinion, much more subtle, add-on morphs are probably what is needed now, which are specifically designed to enhance the weight-mapped V4 mesh, in the direction of still further cosmetic refinement... a kind of "V4WM Morphkit" add on perhaps?
Mike and the guys who have done the heavy lifting, re-rigging V4... and have done such a great job making the injection scripts work really well, for both V4WM and the Outfitter, don't need to worry about this though... they really shouldn't concern themselves too much with the above... I don't think.
Michael 4 WM and so much more beyond, is what people would love to see coming from the Poser Place team now I think?
The idea of doing further, morph-based enhancement is "after-market" relative to V4WM in my view and could well be done commercially... perhaps the guys doing the "Perfect" line should move onto this next? Just a thought...
Seeing a V4WM targeted offering from the likes of them would be great for marketplace exposure for V4WM no?
This is my view as a content consumer rather than as a potential content creator.
As also suggested here too, a lot of further subtle enhancements could now be made via a new set of more cutting edge displacement / normal / bump textures too... that could add great value to the Poser Place WM packages and help generate more buy-in?
As lmk suggested to me, over at Poser Place would be the place to contribute on such things... and for anyone to contribute their views on what should and shouldn't fall within the Poser Place team's remit. I've registered there... still catching up on everything under discussion there to see if I might find anything I could contribute to personally and just taking in all the great stuff happening there :-)
RobynsVeil posted Wed, 07 March 2012 at 5:00 AM
Good ON you, MonkeyCloud... that's the spirit!!
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
monkeycloud posted Wed, 07 March 2012 at 5:39 AM
;-)
Until I do come up with anything else I can contribute, I am going to try actually making some images for my gallery here, featuring V4WM and some converted clothing...
Not promising a timescale here! My personal poserverse is now in a bit of dissarray since sidegrading to Poser Pro 2012. My runtime ran away...
...and besides my actual job, I am terrible at taking on extra curricular stuff... I'm currently supposed to be writing an iphone app for one charity, a database app for another... and my wife needs a new website for her home business... and then I've started modelling this stupidly huge scale spacecraft in Hexagon too.
Another story... but I will endeavour I promise! :-)