I'd be interested to see a no postwork section in the gallery, not because i'm lazy or incompetent, purely because i'd really like to see what can be achieved using the program itself... by postwork, i mean airbrushing, layering etc,  in fact any external program enhancements or tweaks....does that discount skin textures that have been photoshopped for textures, not if it has been done before applying to a figure....what do you guys think?

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I've wanted this for years.  Now more than ever is an ideal time to show what Poser alone is capable of.  Even back in the Poser 4 days, it could achieve some amazing results if you had the patience to learn how.

As for the definition of "Postwork" I think anything goes as long as the render isn't altered in any way (other than cropping or shrinking for file size, and a signature/title line added).  In fact, that is the definition of Postwork; fiddling about with a render to enhance it afterwards.  So, no Postwork, no fiddling.  :)

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well that's 2 votes in favour lol, out of two posts i'd be happy to call that a majority landslide Sam, can't wait for the section to appear in the gallery

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i'd like to see this also, but i also know the limits of current figures and would allow for wanky joints and ill fitting clothing, i think this would point out the areas that need addressing the most...

 

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Well make that a yes for me too

I'm all in for this as well. :)

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     It is important to me to try to get the image by render alone because I enjoy making animations.  While I admire the ability to hand-draw details/corrections onto a render, it isn't feasible to do so over hundreds of frames, and it would be well nigh impossible to do postwork consistently enough over multiple frames to avoid a jarringly obvious artifact when the animation is played.

     For still images, I just enjoy the challenge of getting Poser to produce the effect wanted.  Ironic, given the old argument that a Poser render doesn't count as art as would a painting or drawing.  I respect the ability to draw in good postwork, but I don't enjoy doing it myself.  I'd rather spend hours tweaking geometry and material nodes.

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My objective has always been to produce the best possible image, regardless of what work flow I have to follow. I've been using Poser for about 5 years now off and on, and although I feel I am at least competent with it, I am nowhere near the point where I feel I am any kind of expert like others here. I can make up for some of these shortcomings through postwork. It is the end results I seek, not the idea that I can do everything within one app.The forum helps me a lot. There are some real whizzes here. People are overall friendly and willing to help an idiot like me, and that makes me feel good about beng a member. I am saving out a lot of the information, and I am going to put together a book filled with hints and tips that I am sure can't be found anywhere else. 

 

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i dont think there's anything wrong with postwork Charlie43, if that's what floats ya boat, my point is, as Sam so rightly said, Poser is now far advanced from the early days and one section devoted purely to non postworked images will showcase what the stand alone can do. So many times i've seen images and thought, why can't I do that in Poser, if they can, only to find out they couldn't and didn't......

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Well, it ain't an argument over what is the best method of producing an image, since the answer to that is always going to be "Whatever gets the job done".   Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves to one single tool for a job if there were other, better things available.   It's more of an opportunity to showcase the software's capabilities and the ingenuity of the people using it, which has been sadly neglected.

In any case, there are so many heavily postworked "Poser" renders that should really go in Mixed Media, IMO.  The other thing to consider is, there must be plenty of newcomers who see something in the Poser gallery and wonder how the hell is it possible to do that?  The answer, quite often, is that it's not possible, since it was mainly painted over.

It seems a shame that Poser, with all the advances it has made from (even when I started) in Poser 4, is still treated primarily as a rotoscoping tool by many, when there are some incredible effects, shaders and production techniques available now.

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you echo my sentiments precisely Sam................

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Well there you go then, a baby girl and a smoking dog say it's good.  :)

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i don't think there's much chance of the mods doing anything yet, maybe we should all post renders in the gallery of John Lennon and Yoko carrying placards saying"Give no postwork a chance"......................

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like this

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Heh.  We'd all get hauled over the coals for copyright violations, most likely.  :)

Perhaps an original render with a similar theme would work.  Mine'd have to have Daleks, though. :D  Hmmm... an idea is brewing.  Never a good sign. :lol: 

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That's a good idea, as I never do postwork.

Sometimes I "pre-work" textures in IrfanView (which has a nice batch function) or photoshop, but IMO 99% of the pictures "needing" postwork just suffer from less than ideal textures, lights or shaders.

And of course using figures with bad rigging.

Not saying people "shouldn't" postwork, but it would be nice to have a place for "vanilla" Poser renders.

 

BTW, the real purist of course doesn't even need postwork for the signature.  :-)

Dear Lord, buy the girl a Big Mac, or something.  Great looking render, though.

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There was a time when this issue was frequently&hotly debated here.

Now as a person who never renders poser content in posers render engine I must ask why people care so much about this matter?

" I want to see what poser is capable of doing without all the paint overs etc."

Well you can see this for yourself with your copy of poser
and the wealth of knowledge about lighting&shaders from expert people like Bagginsbill.

Also What about the subtle enhancements and global post filters that are not so obvious as a blatant "paint over".

Please consider the huge burden that would be placed on the"pure poser " gallery moderators  trying to determine if the lovely&mild "bloom" in a render was the result of good environmental lighting or was it applied later in photoshop.

And we can only imagine the the Controversy& Drama that will ensue in the forums when a talented poser purists has his/her image wrongly rejected on some moderators  "suspicions" that  some hair prop looks to have been "softened" with a post filter.

I think such a "Pure poser gallery would likely result in more bitter,angry & LOCKED threads  than any perceived or material benefits it would bring to the Renderosity site

 

Just my opinion

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A hugh portion of images proudly tagged as "no postwork" seem very unfinished to me, probably because, as JoePublic points out, there hasn't been enough attention paid to lights, textures, and shaders. At the moment, it's almost as though just saying "no postwork" gets you off the hook for these things.

A gallery dedicated to showcasing just what can be done inside Poser might well elevate the general expectations of what an unpostworked render should look like.

I'm all for it.

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@ wolf - I think you'd just have to take people on trust.  No other way could work, realistically.  Sure, there'd most likely be cheats but sadly, that's the way of it.

As for the why?  I think moriador expressed it well enough.  I could just as well say "Why not?"   In any event, I can't take advantage of the many advances in Poser, since I'm stuck with version 6 but it's still nice to see what can be done with the latest kit, time and ingenuity.  In fact, I'm still pleased when I can coax a half decent render out of my lowly version.  Seeing other people's efforts can inspire me and give me additional info on how to get the best I can within the system's limitations.

Finally, though, it's a lot of fun.  Keep in mind what I said earlier in the thread, though; it's a plain stupid approach if you're working for a client and/or a deadline.  Times like those, it's whatever does the job.  I think everyone here knows by now that clients and their targets don't give a monkey's about how it was made, in the same way as most audiences don't care if a great song was played on a Les Paul or a Telecaster.  But to those who actually use the stuff it's an interesting topic in and of itself.

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actually the term "no postwork" is incorrect.. what is wanted here is known in the Movie world as "In Camera"... all the shot, effects etc in 1 shot.

 

I'm all for it. it's how I work anyway. all the post work I tend to do is add text on the bottom.. since I can't paint to save my life..

 

[click for full]

so.........post your no-postwork renders.

btw i am a big fan of postwork!

::::: Opera :::::

 

[click for full]

no postwork

 

[click for full]

 

::::: Opera :::::

 

P.S. Hi Wolf!

You are one talented guy.

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Quote - A hugh portion of images proudly tagged as "no postwork" seem very unfinished to me, probably because, as JoePublic points out, there hasn't been enough attention paid to lights, textures, and shaders. At the moment, it's almost as though just saying "no postwork" gets you off the hook for these things.

A gallery dedicated to showcasing just what can be done inside Poser might well elevate the general expectations of what an unpostworked render should look like.

I'm all for it.

  As one who posts no postwork tagged images, i agree with this comment, but as much as images are judged on the 5+ hours or whatever of postwork that goes into them in very often not inexpensive art and graphics programs, i think the "artist" if we are allowed to be called that without postworking has the same rights to be judged on the image and i don't consider to be an excuse....one quote from the Smith Micro website "With Poser’s new Subsurface Material nodes, you’ll transform your scenes into rendered masterpieces with lifelike translucent surfaces"

 

 

 

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**"actually the term "no postwork" is incorrect.. what is wanted here is known in the Movie world as "In Camera"... all the shot, effects etc in 1 shot."**

Agreed!

but would people be allowed to use third party "in camera Effects that do not ship with poser and are not an effect achievable with firefly alone such as global shaders or for that matter BB's third party environmental Sphere lighting prop??

(Attached straight poser6 firefly render and  saved out of poser  uploaded with this forum post "in camera  pencil drawn effect from "olivers art" global shaders applied globally with a native poser6 macro)

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"Dear Lord, buy the girl a Big Mac, or something.  Great looking render, though."

 

Thanks. :-)

Problem is, whenever I load any foodstuff in my runtime, it quickly dissapears. I have a suspicion, but so far was unable to prove it.

;-)

I think what we are saying Wolf, is that if it is done within Poser then no matter whether it's a shader, prop etc it is still within the confines of poser, if you then take it into photoshop or another program, add 5 layers, 12 airbrush coats and a few lense filters then it would be considered postworked, basically when your scene is rendered that is our definition of no postwork........

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"I think what we are saying Wolf, is that if it is done within Poser then no matter whether it's a shader, prop etc it is still within the confines of poser,"

Very good then sir
thanks for the clarification

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Here's a render that could very well justify postwork:

The IDL light in combination with the displacement shader used for the sand creates artifacts in the shadows.

The car is also very low-rez and doesn't work well with Poser smoothing, so some parts look jagged.

Personally I'd still rather improve the car's mesh in a modeller than having to postwork it every time I use it in a render.

I use a lot of postwork, seems crazy not to, to me.  However, these days the images Poser can crank out by itself are light years ahead of what I used to be able to do with it.  No post here, other than to convert the PNG image to a JPEG for uploading:

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Quote - I use a lot of postwork, seems crazy not to, to me.  However, these days the images Poser can crank out by itself are light years ahead of what I used to be able to do with it.  No post here, other than to convert the PNG image to a JPEG for uploading:

I agree. But then I enjoy postwork more than setting up scenes. To me it's silly not to postwork the life out of a snapshot (I unyellow teeth and cover up zits and occasionally smooth out a few wrinkles even on snapshots of my friends -- it's a habit).

But I do appreciate seeing just what Poser is capable of doing all on its own.  The initial investment of time in getting shaders and lighting looking good might be quite significant, but in the long run, it's bound to be a huge time saver, even if you still do significant postwork.

It would be gratifying to see, and extremely helpful as well, just what we could expect from this software.

On a side note, I can't help thinking of "in camera" in the legal context, so it sounds rather odd to me. :)

PS I love the motion blur on the render, Paul!

---

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Just implement a tag that people can filter on to see only NPW images if they want.

Ultimately, you do what makes you happy. If you're totally satisfied with a NPW image then great. If you leave it lacking something that PW could achieve then it becomes either a fetish or an interesting exercise, depending on your POV. 

What I'd like to see is something like the lighting challenges at

http://www.3drender.com/challenges/index.htm 

where some talented people took a stock scene and had a go at it., with or without PW and especially some before and after PW images. It's sometimes difficult to see what PW contributes without seeing the same scene with and without it.

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that sounds like a great idea lmckenzie, i posted a thread sometime ago about challenges/comps in poser and almost got my head bitten off becuase we had holiday comps already, if anybody wants to set one up as a challenge i'd love to have a go, i dont do Santas, pumpkins or easter bunnies.........:sneaky:

I think some people are under the impression that I dislike postwork, I don't in fact i am quietly envious of great postworked images, but what I want to try and achieve is pushing the boat out with purely poser as far as I can, i'm still a novice and probably always will be as long as the technology advances faster than my capacity to absorb it.......As I mentioned earlier, when I first bought Poser 5 in about 2002/3 I joined rendo and looked in the galleries, played with Poser for a bit and then gave up as i just kept looking and saying WOW, I can never achieve that, in truth in Poser alone nobody could, so maybe the answer is that images that are postworked could have a PW tab ?

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IMHO such a gallery should reside on the Smith Micro site, as actually is the case. It's their software, so they should want to showcase what the program is capable of, without postwork. Perhaps they might start contests some day, as Vue does with its yearly Digital Environment Competition.

The Rendo galleries are not very handy for this, they hardly support tags (or do support them but they are not used), and one can pick only one subcategory for an image.

But why do you need a gallery? If you want to see what Poser is capable of, with strict limits (like: still image, unprocessed firefly render jpg output, photoreal, ...) then just start a thread calling for submissions. When succesful, repeat it every quarter or so, and experiment a bit with the requirements stated in the starting-post. A basic rule might be (up to you): no entries/posts without images that fit the requirements. And/or: no comment on images from others. Whatever, your thread, your rules, next time new rules, etc.

You can start off now...

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sounds a bit like shut up , conversation over lol

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I did not mean that, I meant: you can have what you want the informal way.

In the meantime, getting some results in does not stop anyone from having any conversation about the formal Rendo solution (if any).

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

point taken aRtBee, apologies for my paranoia..........

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"but what I want to try and achieve is pushing the boat out with purely poser as far as I can"....."IMHO such a gallery should reside on the Smith Micro site, as actually is the case. It's their software, so they should want to showcase what the program is capable of, without postwork."

Then you should call it a pure "poser firefly" gallery then.

Here is the issue IMHO

A "pure" poser render  will still only be as good as the modeling topolgy& texturing quality of the canned THIRD PARTY content and even lighting presets you are rendering within poser.

As we know,(unlike those render challenge models in the Imkenzie link), not all poser content is created equal.

A V4 Character pack with the "elite" texture set from DAZ and a IBL studio light set from RDNA, will likely look better and get more gallery hits/challenge votes etc, than poser's "Alyson" using only the content that shipped for her in poser.

So frankly a "pure" poser gallery section or challenge will still likely be dominated by only  those who can afford all of the best third party content& lighting presets.

Making the fact that the image was not touched after the render somewhat moot. IMHO

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no, not really. everyone is free to make their own content, avoid light presets (which they should anyway..... seperate rant there!) etc.

 

so, enough of the arguing the little points. we get bogged down in those. lets just do it.

so basically what you are saying wolf, if i understand you correctly is that whether you call it a pure poser gallery or not, whatever the criteria , the galleries will or are purely dominated by "those who can afford all of the best third party content & lighting presets" which can also mean that the postworked galleries are dominated by those who can afford all of the above plus the graphics software to postwork, which leads me to wonder why anyone bothers to post in the galleries? except the few who fall into the above categories?, not trying to be an ass here, i'm just wondering how people really percieve the galleries and what motivation is there to emulate your favourite artist/style/genre if you can never afford to join the big boys league?

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Quote - I'd be interested to see a no postwork section in the gallery, not because i'm lazy or incompetent, purely because i'd really like to see what can be achieved using the program itself... by postwork, i mean airbrushing, layering etc,  in fact any external program enhancements or tweaks....does that discount skin textures that have been photoshopped for textures, not if it has been done before applying to a figure....what do you guys think?

 

I'm all for a no postwork or a 'pure firefly' section, I'd love to see what others render in Poser. Such an addition would be welcome. I don't care if people edit, enhance, alter, postwork or whatever you call it, their images or not, but I'd love to see what people can get out of Posr without that. I know what lot's of people can do with Poser in their workflow, but I'd love to see what People can do with Poser only also. That is hard to determine at the moment.

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Food for thought.....
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Quote - I'd be interested to see a no postwork section in the gallery....what do you guys think?

Imo, make it a subsection of the Poser gallery (genre, I think it's called). 

I agree with so many of the comments, I think what irks me most is the attitude that some people seem to have ie: a non postworked image is worthless/shabby unfinished and that somehow somebody spends 20 minutes cobbling a  scene together and calling it finished and demanding applaud. I have probably got close to a thousand or more pz3's or pzz's stored on various media that never even made it to worth finishing let alone posting in the gallery as i am sure many other guys have and spent countless hours trying to get the best results i could ,i've learned along the way, not as much as i could probably, but i am never going to learn if i believe that my future lies in airbrushing my  poser shortcomings in an external program. I think i've pretty much exhausted my feelings on the subject (thank the lord they cry) and all i can do is continue to post my shabby. unfinished poorly lit nonpostworked images in the galleries ...........

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*the posted image I did in 2003. ok, it's not a poser render, (has poser figures), but that is all 'in camera' .. the only postwork was to add the text at the bottom.yes it took me time to get that rendered.. I think I was working on the image for about 3 months on and off over 2 years....*

*but as they say. patience is a virtue. also knowing your program inside out.. which is something I don't see with the uses of poser... with trueSpace and the built in Lightworks render engine,  I knew exactly what I would get for X setting. I did that by working with tS, not with postwork programs. I can see this proposed gallery mainly for that. learning what the program can actually do.

 

(yes I can see the issue with the light and the DOF - that was a limitation of how trueSpace 4.3 processes renders.. I did'nt find away round it.)

still a great scene regardless khai, imho

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"which leads me to wonder why anyone bothers to post in the galleries? except the few who fall into the above categories?",

Well you have to ask the people what motivates them to post in a web gallery
as the reasons will vary
the ones who model tend to post images to show case their modeling skills
Texture artists  to show case their texture painting skills
and so on
 perhaps some poser user post images to highlight their compositional skills
and artistic& lighting choices with their content.
 

"not trying to be an ass here, i'm just wondering how people really percieve the galleries and what motivation is there to emulate your favourite artist/style/genre if you can never afford to join the big boys league?"

Consider the possibility that not every poser user aspires to join the "big boys league'
some just want to use what ever tools "in camera" or post camera to make their finished pieces.

Trust me even the "big boys" perform post render adjustments(Gamma,Bloom etc) to their
Vray,Mental Ray Arnold,Renderman, Maxwell,Modo  etc renders.

 As for the suggestion to post such a gallery on the SM site, well IMHO that would be nothing more than a FREE advert for the DAZ inc  $$$Store$$ unless you restricted it to the SM's poser native content.

Welcome to the Smith Micro "FireFly" Gallery:

Female figure V4 available at DAZ inc
"Carmen"Texture&morph set by "tony puryear"available at DAZ inc
Sci fi clothing outfit by 'Uzilite" available at  DAZ inc
Hair by "Quarker" available at  DAZ inc
Downtown urban environment "Urban sprawl 2 "
by "Stonemason" available at  DAZ inc

Render engine: smith micro "firefly"....... with no post processing

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wolf359, i find those remarks quite enlightening.....quote "and so on perhaps some poser user post images to highlight their compositional skills and artistic& lighting choices with their content. "   it would appear that the third group is way down the food chain in your view, may i remind you however that if it were not for hobby modellers cobbling together a scene, there would not be much demand for the models, textures and poses that create so much income in the communities... just my humble lower class opinion sir

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I'll bring this up to admin. :)

_____________________
.::That which does not kill us makes us stronger::.
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thanks Kimberly, most appreciated

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"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

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BTW: You can search the gallery using the search function with "no postwork" (note the doublequotes). That mostly finds the images where the phrase "no postwork" (without doublequotes) is in the description (plus some images where it sais "no postwork except ..."). I guess more than that you will not get with a seperate gallery either, because there are probably a lot of users who do not even know what postwork is (i myself heard it only in the context of poser because the rest of the world calls the process of resizing, color-correcting, etc. an image "compositing").

"it would appear that the third group is way down the food chain in your view,"

No that is not my view at all
I use mostly premade content and motions
and IBL setups& lighting rigs for Vray in my professional client work

Assume much??

the statement stands on its own as a speculative, potential answer to your own Question:
""which leads me to wonder why anyone bothers to post in the galleries? except the few who fall into the above categories?","

for a more definitive answer perhaps you could conduct a poll  unless your question was merely rethorical.

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an interesting debate wolf359, however it was not my assumption that "perhaps some poser user post images to highlight their compositional skills and artistic& lighting choices with their content", that dear Sir was your assumption by the use of the word"perhaps"

• *Used to express uncertainty or possibility: *
• Used when one does not wish to be too definite or assertive in the expression of an opinion

,in my particular case this happens to be true, my question was as you so correctly surmise , rhetorical.

Unlike youself with your film projects, IMDB listings, vendor items etc , I am purely what was once described as a well meaning amateur, who cannot aspire to reach the dizzy heights of film production having neither the skill nor motivation to achieve such goals, all I ask is that those who do not postwork have an equal forum to show their efforts and the extent of the improvements in the software and are not poorly judged because their displayed work was completed within the confines of the program per se.....

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"and the extent of the improvements in the software and are not poorly judged because their displayed work was completed within the confines of the program"

Ok perhaps you are aware of some threads or incidents where people's finished work or "improvements in the software" were
"poorly judged" solely on the one fact that they posted untouched  renders directly from their render engines and no other criteria.

I must have missed those threads somehow

so if an "untouched firefly only" gallery wouldhelp to put and end to this apparent conflagration happening somewhere out there in this community,
then indeed it would be a good thing for the sake of fairness,

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Quote: As for the suggestion to post such a gallery on the SM site, well IMHO that would be nothing more than a FREE advert for the DAZ inc  $$$Store$$ unless you restricted it to the SM's poser native content.

Welcome to the Smith Micro "FireFly" Gallery:...

 

Quite disrespectful, and I don't see the connection between SM and DAZ. Here it is http://poser.smithmicro.com/gallery.html and is does answer the question what the program is capable of. Edit: Bagginsbill is in slots 5, 7 and 8.

My issue with having another subcategory is that one can post in one gallery only. So posting in realism, portrait and no-postwork would require three posts instead of one. So perhaps we could improve on that first / as well. When I had a good result, I would prefer the first or second over the third to post in. Same with tutorials.

Next to that, I find the no-postwork as well as the "see what the progam is capable of" both rather vague. Firefly calculates results per materials channel and per light, and adds them up. When I get all results out as separate render passes and blend them together myself, it's postwork. And I do see every day in the galleries what the program is capable of. Horrible in a lot of cases, but some are quite good. In other words: we might need better criteria for what we're really looking for.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

in all fairness aRtBee  i think that is splitting hairs

"Next to that, I find the no-postwork as well as the "see what the progam is capable of" both rather vague. Firefly calculates results per materials channel and per light, and adds them up. When I get all results out as separate render passes and blend them together myself, it's postwork. And I do see every day in the galleries what the program is capable of",

I thought that earlierr in the thread it had been made clear what the criteria for postwork was, ie: once an image has rendered.....if we scrap firefly render, python, shaders, skins, textures from the equation we might just as well post everything in the photoshop gallery.....and are you seeing what the program can do, or what the other programs can do that apparently enhance what poser does so appallingly according to opinion posted here, it makes me wonder why there are so many users, they can't all be modellers and texture makers....

on your point about posting, surely it would be up to you which gallery you thought the image most suited to, I can't be held responsible for someone elses decision making by my suggestion surely?

just playing devils advocate really, and waiting for my renders to complete.........

 for the life of me I can't see why people are so against the idea, it's not as if anyone is demanding self rule lol,

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Indeed, mystic, I don't quite get the hair-splitting myself (other than that arguing over minute details is often quite fun).

Genre purists could argue all day about whether artistic looking nudes belonged in the pin-up gallery (along with the NVIAT's that didn't end up in fantasy); likewise, I'm sure we could debate which images did or did not belong in horror.

Quite a few images containing Poser content (and presumably posed in Poser) that were nevertheless rendered in other software still get posted in the Poser gallery.  There do not seem to be any hard and fast rules.  But it does sometimes give the wrong impression. It would be nice to see a gallery dedicated to Poser's rendering.

Whether or not someone has the money to buy the best content isn't any more relevant that asking whether or not they can afford the best rig.  In that sense, "in camera" does limit people with less powerful machines to much simpler images, as compositing very complex imagery in multiple layers would be a nightmare to do within Poser itself, notwithstanding the possibility of rendering a bunch of background layers pasted onto props and so on.

As for who posts in the galleries and why and whether or not the rules are fair... does it really matter?  We weren't talking about a competition with a cash prize, were we?  Just some galleries. Gosh.

Maybe the Poser community would be better heading over to Flickr...

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"Quite disrespectful, and I don't see the connection between SM and DAZ. Here it is http://poser.smithmicro.com/gallery.html and is does answer the question what the program is capable of. Edit: Bagginsbill is in slots 5, 7 and 8."

Ironicly many of the really interesting images in that gallery to which  you just linked,
would not be allowed under a Draconian "no postwork" rule.

And I do see alot of DAZ& non poser native ,content  in that gallery like the
Sanctumart grim armor and the Soros7
Sci-fi hallway and of course ubiquitous V-chick.  
So yes that gallery does promote the usage Daz products
....but so what!
who cares!?
,as you correctly stated ,overall it is a decent representation of the kind of images one can ultimately produce with poser as the CORE engine in your OVERALL ARTIST TOOL SET, if one is inclined to make the effort.

IMHO a strict "no postwork" displayed gallery at smith micro would do NOTHING to convince potential buyers about the many overall abilities of Poser today.

 

"As for who posts in the galleries and why and whether or not the rules are fair... does it really matter?  We weren't talking about a competition with a cash prize, were we?  Just some galleries. Gosh."

Again which makes me wonder why the "no post work" advocates seem to believe that they are being somehow unfairly represented or even "cheated"
when they are perfectly free to post their untouched renders right now in ANY gallery category  and clearly announce in the description
"no post work of any kind involved"

 

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wolf359, nobody has ever said they were being cheated or under represented,,just purely that it is not possible to judge a Poser manipulators (I use that word in deference to the purists who will claim there is no art unless you postwork) effort in comparison to one that has been extensively postworked so therefore an non postworked gallery section would be one solution, all that has been mentioned is that it is not obviously an even playing field unless postworked renders bear an equally impressive "lots of postwork in so many different programs that the image bears little or no resemblence to the one that originated in Poser" tag which to be honest I very rarely see..........I think you really misunderstand the point of the thread, nobody is demanding, nobody is crying, nobody is upset over the lack of such a genre, the original question was "would it be an idea, what do you think",

as to the Draconian no postwork rule you mention, this would only apply to a gallery subsection genre of non postworked images voluntarily subscribed to, so I do find that quite a scaremongering ill informed comment to make, as if somehow suggesting that it would apply to all Poser galleries.....meh.....

you have your views and I respect your right to hold them, as Voltaire I believe said  "I may not believe in what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"

it does however seem to have devolved into a debate about what is the definition of postwork, in camera, compositing etc etc, which was only to be expected.........Again, I find it hard to understand why not? However in due deference to forum etiquette, I shall refrain from further comment and let the community decide........

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Like MysticEagle, I can't understand why there are objections to it.  Nobody's forcing anyone to even post in that particular place if they don't want.  I still say it's a valid idea and one I'd certainly be interested in viewing, if not necessarily posting to.  I hardly render anything these days, other than test renders of stuff I'm rigging.

And, if someone can get a great result by using pre bought/made everything, it's still a showcase of what the software can do, given the right content.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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*** Nobody's forcing anyone to even post in that particular place if they don't want.***

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This.***

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Quote - "As for who posts in the galleries and why and whether or not the rules are fair... does it really matter?  We weren't talking about a competition with a cash prize, were we?  Just some galleries. Gosh."

Again which makes me wonder why the "no post work" advocates seem to believe that they are being somehow unfairly represented or even "cheated"
when they are perfectly free to post their untouched renders right now in ANY gallery category  and clearly announce in the description
"no post work of any kind involved"

 

Cheers

Wolf, I'm certainly not an NPA! I think almost every render could use a little, if not extensive, work in Gimp or Photoshop, and I've never understood those who feel that postwork is some sort of cheating.  My favourite gallery members do extensive postwork (for instance, tiff666, who posts in Mixed Medium). I vastly prefer that sort of image.

The issue is that sorting through the galleries for images is a PITA. I don't want to have to use a search box to look for tags or text or whatever because I can't stand the way Rendo's searches work, and not everyone remembers or wants to write anything with their images.

It would be a whole lot more convenient not to have to search for tags and text because I could just click on a gallery and browse through it.

As for whether this would make those who regularly post in camera stuff feel better or even work better and be more inspired to improve because their images would appear sequentially with images of similar origin (Poser firefly render only, etc).  That's another question. But, really, why not give it a try?

In the end, what does it cost to add an additional gallery category? I mean, I guess one could make the slippery slope argument that we would end up with a billion different categories.  But then that's why this discussion ensued - to determine the merits of adding this category.

I don't think, really, that there's anything more to it than that.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

"Wolf, I'm certainly not an NPA! I think almost every render could use a little, if not extensive, work in Gimp or Photoshop, and I've never understood those who feel that postwork is some sort of cheating.  My favourite gallery members do extensive postwork (for instance, tiff666, who posts in Mixed Medium). I vastly prefer that sort of image."

Hi I was agreeing with your statement about there not being any contests involved hence no "judging"
 sorry about any confusion
but Sam and kai are right  one more gallery sub cat
in the mix wont be that big of a deal if the mods decide to do it
but it makes for an interesting philosophical discussion.

Cheers 

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I've always wanted a No Postwork gallery. I want to see what can be done with Poser alone (or any other 3d program for that matter). Here's one I did last night.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

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Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

Quote - "Wolf, I'm certainly not an NPA! I think almost every render could use a little, if not extensive, work in Gimp or Photoshop, and I've never understood those who feel that postwork is some sort of cheating.  My favourite gallery members do extensive postwork (for instance, tiff666, who posts in Mixed Medium). I vastly prefer that sort of image."

Hi I was agreeing with your statement about there not being any contests involved hence no "judging"
 sorry about any confusion
but Sam and kai are right  one more gallery sub cat
in the mix wont be that big of a deal if the mods decide to do it
but it makes for an interesting philosophical discussion.

Cheers 

Ah, I'm sorry. Re-reading I understand what you mean. :)

I think it WOULD be an interesting discussion, though the peace loving Renderosity forums might not the perfect venue for a debate which has the potential to get heated. ;)

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

For my half-pennies worth, I think a "no postwork" category or genre would be great.

I'm a newcomer to Poser... only got it when the current version came out last year.

Seeing better what things different people can get out of it, "straight", as it were, would be good.

To date, what few Poser renders I've posted in my gallery are not post-worked... that's largely due to my just being more focused on learning to use Poser and wanting to see what results I can get with that... it's forcing me to learn more about the poser material nodes and lighting... than if I just over painted in Photoshop, from the get-go.

However, got PS CS5, so would like to learn to post-work my images too, where it might be of benefit, in due course...

I'd almost like to see an explicitly "post-worked" category or genre in addition to a "no-post-work" one, from that point of view.

More interested in learning to use my PS software for textures right now... but as I learn more about the Poser material room though, from these forums, it seems there is so much can be done there just with the procedural and maths nodes anyway...

...as a hobbyist here, I am using Poser just for the sake of it... although I still l have pressures of time of course... if not any client deadlines... to consider, just for the very reason that it has to be fitted in around my work and family life.

Anyway, good topic of discussion I think :-)

My only objection to the separate gallery is that I feel it tends toward balkanization. One could well have a NPW gallery for every application and then various other subsets. That, if anything I think, serves to foster discrimination and discourages seeing the whole richness and variety of what people are doing. Of course people could use tags to limit their viewing but perhaps to a lesser degree. If you want NPW to be considered a 1st class citizen then keep it out there with everything else.

I was unaware that NPW was denigrated. There may be many reasons for such an attitude. Perhaps touting NPW is seen as arrogance, or the work of a technician as opposed to an 'artist,' or simply something that breaks the traditional norms. A good work is a good work, but anyone who knows even a tiny bit about the history of art knows that conflicts over technique, subject matter, style etc. are par for the course.

There's nothing with liniting yourself to a subset of the available tools. Sometimes self-imposed limits can lead to great things. Not everyone is going to understand that. It does perhaps leve one open to the criticism that one cares more about technology than art. The best rebyuttal to that is to make great art. IMO, if you emphasize NPW too much, then that is what people are going to concentrate on. Let them be moved by the work first and then look at the production methods. That is, of course, if art is the ultimate aim and not 'look what Poser can do.' The two are not mutually exclusive, but it is  probably true that the emphasis matters - whether to the creator or to the viewer.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Personally... being a newbie here and therefore tending to some extent to initially follow what I see other people doing, when it seems to be applicable... I've jumped on the practice of noting "no postwork" when I've uploaded stuff for two main reasons...

There was no post-work, so thought I should say that, as other people seem to... and also I thought it might help invite any constructive criticism that could be forthcoming... both in terms of what I could do better or might be doing wrong, in my non-postworked rendering...

...and indeed, maybe what might benefit from being post-worked.

"One could well have a NPW gallery for every application and then various other subsets."

 

take a look at the way Ro organises their galleries. all this would take is a simple "no Post Work" addition to the 2nd column. then you can have Max - NPW. Maya - NPW. Poser - NPW.

 

it's really not that big a deal.

kewl.  i like the idea of being able to filter the Poser gallery for 'no post work'.

 

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I do see the benefit of a 'no postwork' gallery and would like to see one set up.  I am not against postwork and admire the skills that so many people possess but I am also interested in what the program can do.  I purchased Poser 2012 on the strengh of some of the renders shown on RDNA before the software was released and even now there is a seperate gallery there for Poser 9/2012.  OK, this does almost certainly have renders that have been postworked but for any potential purchaser the gallery does give a good idea what the latest verion of Poser can do.  

Even those with the earlier Poser versions could be interested in what is possible with their version and therefore give them some ideas of what they may aspire to. 

I am not so keen on such a gallery being hosted on a Smith Micro site only because it implies (even if this is not the case) that the renders are by people doing such for a living.  I do not have enough years left to reach those dizzy heights so I am more interested in what a hobbist, like myself, can achieve.

 

Just my view.

 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

To me it sounds like you want to have a gallery named "Tech Demo", to see images that display the capabilities of the Poser software. Then the gallery should be named so. If it it called "No Postwork", secretly assuming it would work as a tech demo gallery you might not be satisfied with the result. In a gallery called "No Postwork", i would expect to be some good mixture of the work-in-progress gallery with the "forgot-to-enable-shadows beginners" gallery, where i could post my wireframe renders and screenshots. And if i would do so, probably a lot others will, too, because i am average.

Quote - To me it sounds like you want to have a gallery named "Tech Demo", to see images that display the capabilities of the Poser software. Then the gallery should be named so. If it it called "No Postwork", secretly assuming it would work as a tech demo gallery you might not be satisfied with the result. In a gallery called "No Postwork", i would expect to be some good mixture of the work-in-progress gallery with the "forgot-to-enable-shadows beginners" gallery, where i could post my wireframe renders and screenshots. And if i would do so, probably a lot others will, too, because i am average.

 

*lol * or the forgot to turn off floor renders

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Anyone who is up for a challenge, using the theme "Mist" (sounded appropriate because of the last posters id ;), anything goes apart from any form of image enhancing once it has rendered , no prize , no glory, just my undying admiration..........or maybe the small plastic figure called NOPWA.......lol

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**" anything goes apart from any form of image enhancing once it has rendered , no prize , no glory, just my undying admiration........"**

Here you go.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

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great work wolf, how much is it? i'll buy it or why not add it to your gallery? did you catch a hint of sarcasm? for some reason although it has no affect on you, you of all posters on this thread are the most opposed to the mere thought of a suggestion of a hint of an idea.

You are obviously a professional, well thats what your id says, so hey, why not be professional and courteous and get off my back...............

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Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff   

 link via my artist page

I have asked admin to close this thread, as I now feel that wolf359's constant attempts to ridicule and belittle this simple idea have now almost devolved into personal attacks, i may be paranoid but in all honesty i am truly disgusted by this "artists" attempts to ensure that his personal views are more strongly heard than the rest of the pro idea posters on it. In all honesty, the original thread was "what do you think", the consensus seems to be in general a good idea, but I suppose some people will always be opposed to change of any kind, even if  it is such an insignificant thing as a slot in a gallery. I am truly astonished by his blinkered attitude and if this is the behaviour of an industry pro, then I am truly glad to remain an amateur...............................................................................................

I thought I argued the point coherently and literally, maybe I didn't do as well as I could in stating my reasons, but nevertheless that is no reason for this gentleman to take the tone that he has...................

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)  6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5  64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff   

 link via my artist page

"I now feel that wolf359's constant attempts to ridicule and belittle this simple idea have now almost devolved into personal attacks,"

It is never a good idea to become emotionally invested in your forum threads sir.

"I am truly astonished by his blinkered attitude and if this is the behaviour of an industry pro, then I am truly glad to remain an amateur."

The  insignicant fact that  I accept payment for tinkering around in 3D graphics& animation programs does not make me a representative of any industry
and certainly does not make me an "artist"

"I am an amateur and proud of it"
Ahhh....indeed if there is anything that will inevitably result in getting your feelings  hurt , it is too much pride*

*(see human history)

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

"the consensus seems to be in general a good idea"

Of course it is a good idea!

Some like to  filter the Poser gallery for 'no post work'. Others, like I would love to be able to filter out the category 'no post work'. So in this way all and everyone will be happy in this best of all possible worlds.

 

 

Wolf359, Pride has nothing to do with it, nor does emotional involvement, it is a little thing called democracy and freedom of speech which you seem to be keen to squash. You are quite happy to attempt to pick me apart by highlighting my forum signature and selecting quotations from my posts that suit your point of view. Human history has shown that there will always be the "intellectual bully", again you attack me personally, attacking my integrity, uncalled for, unjust and defintely not in the spirit of this thread or these forums......I ask that you desist from the personal attacks, address the issues if you have any more of substance to add.

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)  6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5  64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff   

 link via my artist page

"it is a little thing called democracy and freedom of speech which you seem to be keen to squash."

Hi in general A web forum ,hosted on privately owned servers, has no "free speech" or "democracy" for me to "squash"
(note the prohibition on religious/political debates for example).

"again you attack me personally, attacking my integrity, uncalled for, unjust and defintely not in the spirit of this thread or these forums......I ask that you desist from the personal attacks"

it is unfortunate that you feel personally attacked
but perhaps you should provide a list to a moderator
of examples where I called you a named ,disparaged your, renders ,your personality, or your integrity or character.
I have only expressed my views on the need for a special section for unaltered renders

"You are quite happy to attempt to pick me apart by highlighting my forum signature......Unlike youself with your film projects, IMDB listings, vendor items etc , I ............as a well meaning amateur, who cannot aspire to reach the dizzy heights of film production...i am truly disgusted by this "artists" ..........
I am truly astonished by his blinkered attitude and if this is the behaviour of an industry pro."

Ironic.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Enough.

What started out as a reasonable, easily understood concept has devolved into an overthought, mess of personal attacks and distortions.

 

 

            “So, roll me further B_t__h!”

I think it is sad to bury a whole thread only because one(1) person have taken offense. Lets go on, it is a good idea.

For some years ago, there was a similar discussion in the Vue forum, and it ended by most of the purists migrating to e-on's official forum cornucopia. For obvious reasons e-on like people to use only Vue and nothing else.

But in real life people use a lot of programs and technology, post work in Photoshop is only one part of it. It is called workflow. But the purists they did frown upon that too, "you shall not have any other god". These two groups, technologist vs 'artists' (or aspiring artists) will never agree on anything.

Perhaps what would be good is if, as I think was mentioned earlier, Renderosity could make it possible to tag an uploaded image against multiple sections and genres...

e.g. so you could tag an image as being created using Poser, Vue and Photoshop for instance (sections) and specify its genres as, for example, historical and realism.

I appreciate exactly what the current, practical issues might be around doing this; 

Database table structure.

Nonetheless, I think it would be good...

;-)

Agree with Vintorex on both his points. One, I would go for the subcatagory no postwork so I could filter it out. And two, we should not be closing off discourse because one person has his feelings hurt and so everyong else now has to live in silence and the idea/resentment just festers.

I think one practical problem on which there will be disagreement is the strict application of what is postwork. Is it absolute, as in like nothing at all can enter a graphics program like CS, or PSP. Does it mean you cannot apply any cropping, cannot put a frame around it, what are your boundaries?

well. it was a good idea.

but now we're into bickering over details. I swear.. if God tried to create the world in the poser forum by saying "let there be light!"..... there would be a swarm of replies like "use an infinate" "buy this light set" "what colour" "I don't render in poser, I use..." "lights suck" "search for BB".....

 

ah well. all it needed was a simple catagory added... nothing more. use it or not....

We appreciate the suggestion of a "no postwork" Gallery.

At this time we will not be creating a "no postwork" Gallery. However, if we have enough requests for one when we do the surveys (which will be coming up in a few months) we will then discuss creating one.

Thank you again for the suggestion as it is very much appreciated.

Kristi

Community Relations Specialist

This is your life - your platform - your stage - your story  

It is now immaterial ^^^^^^^^^^however..............................

 

I beg to differ on the "feelings hurt " comments on a thread I started, what I objected to was the systematic demolition of the thread brewgirlca and vintorix, which as a mod brewgirlca,  I thought you might understand. I tried to express my reasons simply and asked the members for their views, once the thread started to appear to me as if one member was trying to ridicule my views for some reason, the above submission from wolf359 being such an example, i felt in my view justly affronted. I have never tried to ram my views down other peoples throats. I still hold by my view that it is and was a good idea, but that is all it ever was, not an attempt to fill the galleries with underworked atrocities, not an attempt to create an impossible workload for the mods and coordinators, just a simple idea which had some support. Maybe I am guilty of over reaction , but in the real world I would not have put so polite a response...................................

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)  6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5  64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff   

 link via my artist page

Kristi has answered the request of this thread. I see no need for it to stay open since it seems you guys can not simply talk about something you feel would benefit the community.

_____________________
.::That which does not kill us makes us stronger::.
-- Friedrich Nietzsche