DAZ has this new incredible model that does more than any of their previous models ever did... but they made it application specific. In order to use this model you can ONLY use it to its fullest capabilitity in one single application.

They screwed themselves with getting a full customer base. They now have to target newbies non-stop.

Poser also screwed up.

They listened to the goofs in this forum who want 3DS Max rendering but can't afford 3DS Max. And so they guaranteed tiny sales of a product that was NOT geared towards newbies which is what Poser is all about.

A super complicated app that no newbie can figure out like Poser 4 without getting all kinds of grief from the same goofs in this forum who wanted 3DS Max but got Poser 9.

And as someone heavily invested in this whole thing I sat by and watched this all come about.

FUCK!

That's all I can say. This really sucks. It really sucks.

We have painted ourselves into a corner.

Why you think Poser is complicated?

SM evolute Poser. If you want the conform of Poser 4 than use Poser 4 and don't cry.

If everybody would think like you, we would not sit in front of a PC, we would sit in front of a cave.

La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.

“Dwell on the beauty of life. Watch the stars, and see yourself running with them.”
― Marcus Aurelius,

Poser isn't complicated. 3DSMax is complicated. Poser is easy-peasy. And this hypothesis that SM catered to the whims of a clientelle who actually wanted 3DSMax, except simpler is... interesting. Do you have any proof to substantiate this, or is this just something derived?

SM doesn't cater to whims, nor does it follow temporary technologies, thank goodness. I for one am really grateful that at least Poser remains a known entity, albeit a more sophisticated one than earlier versions.

BTW, I started 3D (after Blender) with DS .9x. On the strength of that experience, I bought DS3 Adv, thinking it was as stable as DS .9x. :blink: Not a known entity, anymore.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

A newbie can buy a product from the Renderosity store for Anastasia and use it right out of the box?

is Poser now catering to the 50 people who post frequently in this forum or thousands of folks who have no clue what Poser is... like when YOU started?

Coleman might have a point.
See
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2848886

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

I see no newbies in that thread, Vilters

Correct.

The point being that "newbies", do not have a clue what might be happening.

Hey, not everybody has Internet.
Not evenybody come to the forums.

To dig inside a cr2, you have to know what you are doing, and have the extra apps and knowledge to do so.

Some things in Poser might be simpler; Could be more user friendly.
And DS could use a manual.

I thought that was what your post was all about?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Maybe I'm wrong... the sales of Poser 9 and Pro 2012 are a resounding success?

My bad Vilters - I misunderstood

I would be willin' to say that there IS a Poser 9/ 2012 shows that Poser is a resounding success. Why would they update/ expand on sumpin' nobody wanted?

WARNING!

This user has been known to swear. A LOT!

They're fixing the small problems like with every version release.

I just have a feeling, a lot of Poser 8 and Pro 2012 folks are not upgrading... and it's because Poser 9/2012 offer nothing new except more advanced features that MOST Posers don't really use.

instead of catering to the folks who wanted 3DS Max features... they should have focused on features that made Poser easier to use for the basic user and total newb... a large customer base.

weight maps... I hear nothing about this now.

Why are morph fixes for regular V4 being sold like hotcakes in the marketplace?

because a ton of folks remain using Poser 8/2010 and THEY are buying products in mass

You seem to be under the assumption that the "advanced features that MOST Posers don't really use" are the only options available. Do yr homework. Try actually looking at the product before bashing it.

WARNING!

This user has been known to swear. A LOT!

I apologize for starting this...

i went to the DAZ store and saw all those gorgeous clothing sets they're offering for Genesis and how I would love to buy them and chip i to keep this entire market thriving but I'd have to make all my 1000 comic charactrs DAZ ready and that'd be a nightmare.

Then I look at Poser and they are just as lost as to what the long term customer base is wanting to buy. The SSS skin looks like blow-up doll skin and how long do you have to wait for that fake effect that Lux Renderer can do 20 times better? That's the only seeling point with weightmapping whcih is useless in itself unless someone like nerd had the gumtion to make a weightmapped V4... WTF?!

Neither DAZ nor Poser seem like they want my money. Maybe my argument is in the wrong - but damn it is fucking frustrating - truly!

Sorry noxiart - crossposted.

Good post!

Bah. On second thought. Not worth starting an argument.

I have Poser and got Studio 4 PRO for free, so at least once I can have my cake and eat it, too. :-)

I'll concede - Poser9/2012 rocks

We know it's junk, but we like it anyway.

Coleman, over Renderosity and RDNA exist a lot of tutorials for Poser beginner.

Or if you step into problems, just ask.

Many are willing to share their knowlegde with you. :)

Poser Pro is very good application. And it get better :D

So what exactly are your problems?

Genesis work only in DS properly, but there are a lot of other great stuff out which work in DS and Poser.

Victoria 4, Michael4, Appollo free, Antonia, free.

La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.

“Dwell on the beauty of life. Watch the stars, and see yourself running with them.”
― Marcus Aurelius,

I'm having a really hard time sorting out exactly what you're driving at, Coleman.

What I am picking up is a resentment focused on SM that they don't espouse Daz technology. Given Daz's track record in terms of maturing their technology - let's just look at Shader Mixer and that whole shader system and documentation, as an example - I'd be inclined to keep my distance from Daz if I were Smith Micro and was looking at areas to 'grow' my app, as it were. I'd be staying with established technology... and there's a lot to do there, truly.

I do trust that Smith Micro are going to take a solid technological path. The technologies they will adopt and build on will be here to stay the course.

In the interim: Daz figures work brilliantly great in DS4. Use DS4 for that purpose. Poser has its own figures using completely different technology. Use those figures with that technology in mind.

It is pointless and demoralising to pine after a figure that doesn't match your chosen technology. This is a hobby, folks. :blink:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Yet another pointless thread about Genesis into Poser.

Those that want to use Genesis fully, use DS4Pro etc.

Waits for another thread to appear with the same thought process in a short time, followed by another one and then another etc.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Well, you're probably better off using each program to it's strengths as Robin suggested. Now that Daz has new management that seem to want to focus on content again, rather than software we may not see another version of DS for a LONG time. Carrara is up in the air if you've been reading anything Paolo (Preta3D - maker of Reality) has said. Hexagon is most likely dead in the water. It's hard to know at this time who is going to survive and who isn't. I put my wager on Poser. Their creators do tend to listen to their users. As for the 3DS Max thing? I don't really recall anyone screaming for 3DS Max compatibility (which Poser's had for awhile). I HAVE heard ppl asking for better rendering, better skin and better bending - which SM has really tried to address.

Laurie

Quote - DAZ has this new incredible model that does more than any of their previous models ever did.

Wrong forum should be in the Daz Studio forum - read the sticky at the top of the Poser Forum regarding Daz/Genesis.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I don't think Poser is too complicated. Sure Poser 4 is much easier, but Poser 8 & 9 are still manageable even for new users. Sure there are features they will not understand, but neither do I as a long time user without learning about them. The basics are still very basic and easy to use. Personally I'm not happy with the way the new features have been implemented, but that's a choice they made. In time to come they will regret implementing flash & air, since that will be obsolete now that html5 is gaining ground and the mobile market will not get further support from adobe.

What worries me more is the lack of new users coming in. How many new users do we see coming in? Hardly any. Fact is that the poser community is slowly dying. A lot of users have left (probably switched is the word since I still see them around at the other place).

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I think for ever Poser user you see on the forums there are 20 that never join ;). And I don't think that's a ridiculous number. It may even be more.

Laurie

It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers. Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places. Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Quote - I think for ever Poser user you see on the forums there are 20 that never join ;). And I don't think that's a ridiculous number. It may even be more.

Laurie

Pure speculation.

I checked my customers list just for fun. Same names there for years now, a few new ones, but the majority are still these same names. I would say if there are many new poser users, I would see many new names on my customers list, but that is pure speculation as well.

The only thing I know from my customers is that when I started my store they majority of them used Poser and only a few used DS, now that's the other way around. The people who used to be Poser users are now requesting me to keep on releasing my items for Ds as well (knowing that I'm not a DS user at all).

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - Pure speculation.

I checked my customers list just for fun. Same names there for years now, a few new ones, but the majority are still these same names. I would say if there are many new poser users, I would see many new names on my customers list, but that is pure speculation as well.

The only thing I know from my customers is that when I started my store they majority of them used Poser and only a few used DS, now that's the other way around. The people who used to be Poser users are now requesting me to keep on releasing my items for Ds as well (knowing that I'm not a DS user at all).

And yet, I see new faces around the forums both here and at RDNA all the time.

Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers. Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places. Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Keep in mind that Rendo is much more then Poser, we're only a part of this community. Number of users at other places are much lower.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - > Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers. Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places. Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Keep in mind that Rendo is much more then Poser, we're only a part of this community.

You were discussing customers as was I.

And, frankly, I don't see much hope in CP customers changing much.......seems they have a pretty bad reputation among long time users. Especially on the DAZ forums.

I just checked at DAZ - 55 users online.

Allow me to mention that I am quite proud of the people here who have secessfully defused what could easily have been another locked thread. My thanks to the ladies and gentlemen who self-moderated this thread.

From the services I use, Daz3d and Renderosity appear to be roughly equal in daily traffic.

On the users, I'm guessing the 4000+ numbers is a 24 hour running count of unique visitors, and Daz's 55 number is a 15 minute running cookie total.

FWIW, and that's not much.

And don't forget the Big Gallerie from Renderosty too.

Many are online too, just to walk through the galleries.

La vie est éternelle. L'amour est immortel.

“Dwell on the beauty of life. Watch the stars, and see yourself running with them.”
― Marcus Aurelius,

Just because someone doesn't often post in the forum is no reason to speculate that the number of Poser Pro 2012 / Poser 9 users is small. I use Poser Pro 2012, and the only feature I haven't bothered with is the hair room.

I don't understand why people who post to this forum see a conflict with DAZ and SmithMicro. If you prefer the content for Jenny, use DAZ Studio and be happy. If you prefer the legacy models, or want to use a weight-mapped V4 (as I do), use Poser.

What's the big deal?

Poser is software that allows people to growas an artist. The simple "make art" features are still there. We can still load a figure, load a canned pose Load a conforming outfit and Pop on a canned and hit render. Or we can take the time to delve into the various rooms and make more advanced images. I've never used poser 4 but those features still seem to be there. There are just more features that can also be used to allow a greater range of expression.

As far as the amount of users I don't think we can look at the number of users online at daz or renderosity. Daz includes 3-D studio, hexagon, Bryce and Carrera. Renderosity includes all of those plus many other forms of software. Neither gives indication of who uses what software. The only way to truly tell if software is on the decline in by looking at the number of sales for each program.

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

Quote - Poser is software that allows people to growas an artist. The simple "make art" features are still there. We can still load a figure, load a canned pose Load a conforming outfit and Pop on a canned and hit render. Or we can take the time to delve into the various rooms and make more advanced images. I've never used poser 4 but those features still seem to be there. There are just more features that can also be used to allow a greater range of expression.

As far as the amount of users I don't think we can look at the number of users online at daz or renderosity. Daz includes 3-D studio, hexagon, Bryce and Carrera. Renderosity includes all of those plus many other forms of software. Neither gives indication of who uses what software. The only way to truly tell if software is on the decline in by looking at the number of sales for each program.

All true. But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites. Traffic generates sales. If your customers never visit your web site, you can't sell them anything - especially since both companies are web based rather than brick and mortar stores.

Quote - All true. But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites. Traffic generates sales. If your customers never visit your web site, you can't sell them anything - especially since both companies are web based rather than brick and mortar stores.

But looking at Renderosity's traffic isn't going to tell you much since they are poser vendors. Yes I know they sell content but they don't sell the actual program. To get a better feel you would have to see what kind of traffic is that Smith Micro. and they don't have a counter.

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10

I skipped over this thread several times thinking it was a tech problem Such as:

" Help !!!my content wont load in either poser or Daz studio !! they are both screwed up!!"

but alas was sucked in, yet again, to another "I cant use genesis" thread

LOL stupid me!!

Bye

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - > Quote - All true. But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites. Traffic generates sales. If your customers never visit your web site, you can't sell them anything - especially since both companies are web based rather than brick and mortar stores.

But looking at Renderosity's traffic isn't going to tell you much since they are poser vendors. Yes I know they sell content but they don't sell the actual program. To get a better feel you would have to see what kind of traffic is that Smith Micro. and they don't have a counter.

DAZ is a content seller now as well, same as Rendo.

The bottom line is simple though........traffic generates sales.

frankly scarlett i dont give a damned...

its all 'personal preference' ...for me who has the best sales figures has nothing to do with it, the battle has nothing to do with me, i use what 'I' like and i base what 'I' like on personal preference... y'all can argue till the cows come home and it wont make any difference...your personal preference has no bearing on mine , nor mine on yours, you arent going to influence anyone to 'like' your preference... argument is counter productive...only influences us to 'like' or 'dislike' each other...me personally i love everybody, well except for S.N.E.R.T.'s....

:O)

Y'all have a great day.

I don't know. It's a bit of Coke vs. Pepsi and Mac vs. PC with me. I like and use both Coke and Pepsi or Mac and PC, but if offered a choice I prefer Pepsi over Coke and Mac over PC.

With Studio, it's a who nuther ball game. For the longest time, Studio just didn't offer the features that Poser had, so I never bothered. Now, I just don't care about Studio at all. I prefer Poser exclusively.

Newbies tend to like and prefer whatever software they learn first, so it wouldn't surprise me much to learn that Studio has pulled ahead of Poser in use, but I'd be stunned silly to learn that Studio outsells Poser.

When it comes down to it, who cares what anyone else uses as long as you are happy with what YOU use.

Genesis does not work fully in Poser.

Miki3 does not work fully in Studio.

Can you make them work 100% in the program that they were not intended for?

If not, why worry.

It's just wasted time that could be used on doing something better.

Get over it, go do something better!

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

On the subject of Poser's complexity - I'm not sure why that should be a problem. You have always had a lot of control over the ui, so you only need to have what you use and understand up there, while most of the harder stuff is kept in rooms you never need to visit.

Having said that, SM did release a Starter edition, which is cheap and fills the role of Poser 4 nicely with pleny of handy features and nothing to confuse you - as well as the friendly manual. It's robust too, so a newbie can use it on a fairly cheap/old computer - I've been able to install Poser on my netbook with no graphics card and no problem! (Some of you may be thinking "Why the hell bother putting it on a netbook?" but I have a runtime full of toons which make nice illustrations for my family emails)

Quote - Coleman might have a point.
See
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2848886

Not really a great example.. I'd say creating a dev rig and creating content is not exactly a newbie function nor should one expect it to be dead simple. Nothing in that thread is an indicater of poser being particularly complex.. especialy since this particular bit of 'complexity' was part of the figure not something poser makes necessary

Quote - They're fixing the small problems like with every version release.

I just have a feeling, a lot of Poser 8 and Pro 2012 folks are not upgrading... and it's because Poser 9/2012 offer nothing new except more advanced features that MOST Posers don't really use.

instead of catering to the folks who wanted 3DS Max features... they should have focused on features that made Poser easier to use for the basic user and total newb... a large customer base.

You have to be kidding... Poser 9/2012 offered the best upgrade to posers core function in ages. Poser is about rendering and poser 9/ pp2012 make much better renders much easier to accomplish. P9/PP2012 simply blows away earlier version of Poser and the current version of DS. On top of that its all much easier to achieve than before. To me, the end result of better renders is less complicated to achieve in the new version vs the previous version.

Quote -
You have to be kidding... Poser 9/2012 offered the best upgrade to posers core function in ages. Poser is about rendering and poser 9/ pp2012 make much better renders much easier to accomplish. P9/PP2012 simply blows away earlier version of Poser and the current version of DS. On top of that its all much easier to achieve than before. To me, the end result of better renders is less complicated to achieve in the new version vs the previous version.

I'm certainly not going back! Baggins Bill once wrote that he couldn't stand using the older version of the program, after he'd experienced the changes to Poser 9 / Pro 2012. I agree fully!

I'm a Poser newbie. I just got into Poser with Poser 9 and have now sidegraded to Pro 2012.

Very happy with it. Getting good render results as far as I'm concerned. Without a ridiculous amout of effort... largely thanks to the likes of Bagginsbill and the fantastic community of enthusiasts grown up around Poser. Although it is an addictive activity...

On an unrelated note, and entirely off topic for this forum or thread, one of my other hobbies is gardening. I really like my local garden centre.

I keep getting flyers through my letterbox from another garden centre. They're being quite pushy in their marketing and well, if I was a weaker minded guy... ;-)

But why would I swap to using that alternative garden centre where I've heard the seeds are genetically modified to not grow elsewhere... and no way of getting round that is currently provided? That's right... it's a walled garden centre.

I'm not sure I trust the gardeners there to keep up the maintenance either, based on the current state of their free public garden.... they do have a lot of pretty flowers available at their garden centre shop. But the ones I really like are mostly all bought in from other independent gardeners anyway... and aren't genetically modified... yet at least. Certainly at present I'm very happy to buy those flowers. But I have no desire to buy those new, genetically modified ones... as pretty as they might be...

...not unless or until they come up with a decent way that I can get past the inherent restricitons on where I can plant them.

;-)

I see what you did there mister monkey cloud!

That was indeed clever, MonkeyCloud... :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - DAZ has this new incredible model that does more than any of their previous models ever did... but they made it application specific. In order to use this model you can ONLY use it to its fullest capabilitity in one single application.

They screwed themselves with getting a full customer base. They now have to target newbies non-stop.

Well, if the other applications (okay, Poser) are (is) unable to use that figure to its fullest, whose fault is that?

Let me give you a ferinstance in real life here. Microsoft has .doc, .xls, .ppt, and other MS Office file formats. Is it up to Microsoft to make it so that everyone else's applications are able to read/write it? Nope. It's up to all the other app makers to be able to read it.

Same with PDF files, .MAX files (sound familiar?), .my files, you name it.

As for what Poser did? I shouted myself hoarse about that years ago. The forum rats and the PTB there decided otherwise. TBH, I consider myself blameless for what's become of it.

Quote - And as someone heavily invested in this whole thing I sat by and watched this all come about.

Meh - I still use DS 3.x for the most part... but only because I can't stand the oversized DS4 UI, and Poser still feels too damned slow, UI-wise (my computer is a Core i7 w/ a mid-range GeForce and 8GB of RAM, so it ain't the machinery).

After watching 'em do waht they wanted in spite of urgning otherwise, I sat by and quite frankly stopped giving a shit what the Poser team did. As long as my existing software still works, I'm happy. I may shift to DS4 eventually, but only if I get enough time to do a bit of research, fix the stupid UI, and make my own mod of it so that I can find it usable again. That of couse changes if someone beat me to it.

Quote - We have painted ourselves into a corner.

Yep. They'll just have to learn to un-paint themselves.

Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers. Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

The vast majority are "Visitor", as it has always been. Anyone who can click a link and scroll down to "Visitor" (and see the 2300+ sessions out of the 3372 total at time of writing) can see for themselves.

Clue: Most are here to see the galleries. The vast majority are not here to get Poser advice, buy products, or get all the dirt on the latest/greatest version.

Renderosity counts all site visitors to all areas. By contrast, the only place anyone is counted number-wise is the DAZ Forums... not the galleries, the store, or what-have-you.

Long story short? If you're relying on that little counter to gauge the health of the product/community at large, you're in for a big disappointment.

(and one of these days I'll learn to spell "disappointment" correctly the first time...)

Quote -
All true. But since we will never know sales figures, we can only go based on the traffic we can see on the websites.

Now we're getting somewhere. But, as you can see, those are somewhat equal:

http://www.quantcast.com/daz3d.com

http://www.quantcast.com/renderosity.com

OTOH, I check out both sites for things I want to see, buy, whatever... and I know I'm not alone.

Glitterati3D wrote;

Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers. Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places. Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Compare Renderosity.com and DAZ3D.com.

http://www.statsaholic.com/DAZ3D.COM+RENDEROSITY.COM

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/daz3d.com

Coldrake

Off topic again, sorry... but when I'm not playing with Poser... or gardening, I spend a lot of time programming solutions based on Microsoft technologies... in Visual Studio.

Microsoft Word is perhaps one of the most widely used productivity apps on the planet and has established some document file formats that are generally pretty well supported in other apps...

...e.g. Open Office can open .doc format etc.

However, even at their scale and with the product coverage that MS Office has, Microsoft have still realised there is a need for them to provide plenty of extensibility and interoperability support; e.g. Word can save as Rich Text Format or as PDF, and as a variety of other, more open, or just alternative, formats.

That really helps with my word processing workflow and document exchange issues ;-)

Plus the SDK, interop classes and developer support for MS Office... not to mention product documentation... could be said to set a standard that all other commercial software producers should really strive, hard, to emulate...

Getting back to ease of use.

It's sometimes the way things are explained that can put poeple off doing things.

Quite a lot of manuals, instructions etc. are not written for real people. By that I mean those that don't get all that jargon that appears.

Explain something in an easy to understand way and you will be amazed at how quick someone can learn something they never thought they could do.

Making a DEV (developer) rig for a charcter for example. WOW, that sounds complicated, but it's not, with the right tools.

I used PhilC's PZ3editor.

Load in the Characters cr2 file, for example V4. Victoria 4.cr2. This is the file that you normally click on to load V4 into Poser.

Delete the magnets via the Plugin menu.

Delete the materials via the Pulgin menu.

Delete the morphs via the Plugin menu.

You need to delete the above to comply with copyright problems.

Now go for the Save As option and call it V4 DEV Rig, save as a Figure to your DAZ People folder.

That's the main hard part done. Was that complicated? Do you think you could do that?

All you need do now is make a thumbnail image for the DEV rig file.

Easy enough, load up Poser, load in V4 and pose how you want.

Render menu, Render Dimensions.

Render to exact resolution option.

Switch off Constrain.

Change settings to 90 for height and width.

Select OK.

Render and then save back to your DAZ People folder with the name that you gave your DEV rig file, making sure you save as a PNG file.

Do a refresh of your Daz People folder and ther eyou are........

Your new DEV figure is there.

This figure can be used later when you get to the point of making your own content.

As I said, it's sometimes down to how things are explained.

If in doubt about doing ANYTHING, ask. There is always someone willing to help.

If you DON'T ask. then you will never learn.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Quote - Glitterati3D wrote;

Quote - It's really simple.....look at the visible numbers. Right under the Renderosity logo

Saturday, May 5, 2012 8:43 AM

4789 artists currently online

Now go do the same at the DAZ site.

Same setup - signed in users at both places. Huge difference in numbers.

If anyone needs to worry, it's not Rendo or Poser users.

Whether they are active in the forum is moot.......there's a whole lot more folks HERE than there.

Compare Renderosity.com and DAZ3D.com.

http://www.statsaholic.com/DAZ3D.COM+RENDEROSITY.COM

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/daz3d.com

Coldrake

Once again, those stats assume everyone on the internet allows themselves to be tracked. Useless data.

Quote - Renderosity counts all site visitors to all areas. By contrast, the only place anyone is counted number-wise is the DAZ Forums... not the galleries, the store, or what-have-you.

Sorry, not true.......your store and forum account are linked at DAZ. Those users you see are store/galleries/freebies/forum visitors. Same as here.

One should watch these numbers if they wish to offer products to customers. The best day of the week to release product for attention is Tuesday of any week - that's when the most eyes are on the websites in this field. By Thursday, the visitor falloff is pretty heavy, and Friday and Saturday are the worst days. By Sunday night, numbers start to pick up with folks uploading art to the galleries (they spend the weekend doing renders?) with numbers increasing by Monday evening to the height of visitors on Tuesday and Wednesday.

How do I know this? Simply by being observant.

Cheers Paganeagle... that's a great tip about the DEV figure preparation!

Busy reading your posts about Pixies and Faeries in another thread... I hadn't considered rendering anything on this theme... but, a few ideas are now forming in my head...

;-)

Quote - Meh - I still use DS 3.x for the most part... but only because I can't stand the oversized DS4 UI, and Poser still feels too damned slow, UI-wise (my computer is a Core i7 w/ a mid-range GeForce and 8GB of RAM, so it ain't the machinery).

After watching 'em do waht they wanted in spite of urgning otherwise, I sat by and quite frankly stopped giving a shit what the Poser team did. As long as my existing software still works, I'm happy. I may shift to DS4 eventually, but only if I get enough time to do a bit of research, fix the stupid UI, and make my own mod of it so that I can find it usable again. That of couse changes if someone beat me to it.

I'm with you, I feel the same way. For now I'm using Poser and if in future it for some reason stops working, I'm going to switch most likely. What I still don't get is that how a number of people that hardly use poser did get a hold of the poser team and convinced them of changes that made a lot of poser uses abandon poser. They still hardly don't use poser, but we're stuck with an old version due to the changes made. I'm now contemplating a new machine, as soon as I have it I will install DS4Pro and give that some serious attention.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

SM provided Poser Debut for users who wanted something more accessible. For that matter, you can use the basic features only in the standard/pro versions, though you’ve perhaps paid for stuff that you may never use. Having said that, I think I’ve only seen a couple of Debut questions here since its inception – so it’s either so easy no one asks or not many people are buying it, or they don’t come here. Poser has simply followed the path of other 3D apps in terms of ease of use. I don’t fault SM for features, but I do think that it’s gotten away from it’s roots in terms of casual users being able to access most of the features. It could be easier but that would take more work than they (or anyone else for the most part) is willing to do for that segment of the market. Frankly, looking at the render dialogs for apps like Max, C4D and Firefly, I’d be hard pressed to say that the latter is significantly easier by any means - DS is probably little if any better. I don’t think the market is big enough for anyone to justify abstracting the complexity into a simpler experience. Some of that has been done by people here like Baggins Bill, but for the most part, it’s assumed that if you want to do 3D, you want to get down in the weeds and fiddle, or be limited to the most basic capabilities. That’s just the way things are with a few exceptions like SketchUp, that took a pretty big cut at simplifying modeling. N.B. Google just sold SketchUp ÷)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Attached Link: DavidGB post

There are some posts made by DavidGB over in a DAZ thread which I found very enlightening.

Please don't just skip over the text but really do read all the posts he made on that page.

Some of his points:

Genesis had been in the makes for several years.
Studio has used weightmapping for quite some time, but it was locked away from users.
DAZ #1 priority was to get rid of all the injection/readscript mess that confuses new/casual users and used up a lot of product support time.

Especially the last point explains some things that are hard for experienced Poser users to understand.

please keep your DS pimping in the DS forum, this is the POSER forum!

Ahem!!!!!!

Notice from Kimberly

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

I do believe this thread is becoming "my dog's better than your dog" again. Please respect Kim's wishes. I will lock the thread if this continues.

Couldn't resist!!! Lol.

Sing A Long

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

ROFLMAO! That is EXACTLY the tune that has been running through my head as I watched this thread develope!

LOL ;-)

For me, it was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9zj11gf9Qk

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvhhbnMaxBI

The original Phil C there...

But Paganeagle's suggestion is much better!

Good choices as well, Monkey!

Anyhow, if you don't use Mars Lumograph pencils you all suck. ;)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Sam, I agree. There is nothing in the world better for cleaning the wax out of your ears!

I have to disagree with you there. A long rawhide strip with a knot in the middle. Thread into one ear and out the other, then move it side to side. Does the job in no time.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

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That works for me every time!

Quote - I have to disagree with you there. A long rawhide strip with a knot in the middle. Thread into one ear and out the other, then move it side to side. Does the job in no time.

Coleman

There are folks who have made the "complicated" new features of P9/2012 very easy to use. Look at Snarlygribbly's EZskin for SSS. Phantom3d (and crew-of which I am part) created V4-WM and Outfitter-to WM the clothing- Follow Robyn's links at the bottom of her posts. Again-FREE and very NEWBIE friendly

Bagginsbill (for the most part) figured out how to get the most out of the new SSS, and Snarlygribbly automated the conversion with the FREE EZskin script. Marvelous! I was an early experimenter-and had figured out how to do things manually-but the EZskin is a massive time saver- that NEWBIES can use.

I've been very active on a Daz thread trying to figure out how to get as much realism in Daz renders-so far it has not been a successful effort.

Now, would it not be great if all this had been included inside Poser?

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Now, would it not be great if all this had been included inside Poser?

NO, it wouldn't. This way the artists of this community share and learn from each other. These things are the epitome of "artist!"

It takes a true artist to create these things.

Yep, I have to agree with Glitterati there. Many - arguably most - Poser improvements and advances have come from users saying "I wonder what happens if..." IIRC, transmapped hair and MAT poses being two examples. MATs may be old hat now but back in the day they were a great leap forward from applying textures by hand. Can you imagine having to hand link every shader node in VSS, for example?

In any case, Poser would be in development forever if someone didn't draw a line and say, "Enough, let's call this a release".

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I put myself in the place of the end user that does NOT have Internet.
The fellow that does not, or can not come to the forums at will.

For those, Poser should be "more user friendly";
"More complete."

Things like object editor, cr2 editor, are just examples of what can/could/should be incuded in the app and in the manual.

Lights, poses, mat room, all can be learned by experimenting.

The problems arise when one has to dig into a file to get something done.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree ; Great renders come from great artists with great imagination.
But the technical side should/could become simpler if more of these tools where included in Poser.

OK, most users have broadband Internet, but not all.
I still remember my days on dial up.

One could build a full next version of Poser, not by adding "new" stuff, but by adding all existing stuff into one complete application.
Dreaning on about uvmapper, matarial manager, and so on, and so on.

Buy Poser, go to a lonely island, and be able to do it all.
Without the need to go out on the Net and search "extra"s to do all tech stuff.

My other 2 cents :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Happiness - Is a person using whatever they want and having a problem solved by others.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Starts looking for the billy goat gruffs........

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Quote - I put myself in the place of the end user that does NOT have Internet.
The fellow that does not, or can not come to the forums at will.

For those, Poser should be "more user friendly";
"More complete."

Things like object editor, cr2 editor, are just examples of what can/could/should be incuded in the app and in the manual.

Lights, poses, mat room, all can be learned by experimenting.

The problems arise when one has to dig into a file to get something done.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree ; Great renders come from great artists with great imagination.
But the technical side should/could become simpler if more of these tools where included in Poser.

OK, most users have broadband Internet, but not all.
I still remember my days on dial up.

One could build a full next version of Poser, not by adding "new" stuff, but by adding all existing stuff into one complete application.
Dreaning on about uvmapper, matarial manager, and so on, and so on.

Buy Poser, go to a lonely island, and be able to do it all.
Without the need to go out on the Net and search "extra"s to do all tech stuff.

My other 2 cents :-)

What most POSER users want is to create ART. They have no desire to load, pose and render. Internet or not, you are talking about a program that takes ART one step further for ARTISTS.

I don't care if it's animation, still renders or web site design.......Poser users want something not canned. It's what brings them to Poser to begin with.

Considering the vast majority of content for Poser is bought online and so is Poser, usually, I'd think the number of users without internet access is vanishingly small. I know there are a few but even they must get net access some time or other.

OTOH, I was without it for over a year but I had other things to deal with. Poser was the last thing on my mind.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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My Gallery

Quote - What most POSER users want is to create ART. They have no desire to load, pose and render. Internet or not, you are talking about a program that takes ART one step further for ARTISTS. I don't care if it's animation, still renders or web site design.......Poser users want something not canned. It's what brings them to Poser to begin with.

Sorry, but your statement made me laugh.... a little, is it really serious?

Did you ever look at the galleries that show Poser stuff.... I don't care where they are, but they show one thing.... all poser users want do is load, pose and render. The galleries are the proof of that. The majority of Poser users want something canned, that's why the content market is huge and has lot's and lot's of content. That's what brings them to Poser to begin with. I'm not sure where you get your ideas from, they may be true for you and a small group of users, but the majority just buys content.... loads..... poses.... renders..... postworks.... submit to a gallery..... start the process all over again with the next project. That's what poser is all about. If that wasn't the case, there would not be so much content available.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I don't know about the rest of the world but here in the UK we have a large body of people who know, not only how to put the UK back on the up and up, but pretty well the rest of the world. Unfortunately very few of these people appear to be in goverment of any decision making positions and many are driving taxis and the like. What has this to do with Poser, well I am equally amazed at the number of people who know exactly what SM should be doing with the Poser software in the furture and what they are not doing right at the moment. What a shame they did not tell me all this before I spent a large chunk of money on Poser 2012 because I thought it was a great leap forward.

My renders are now faster, I love the new SSS, V4WM and outfitter and all the other little tweaks that came with the pack. I have really enjoyed using the program from day one but now I am being told about all these other features that I needed and that it should be so much easier to use. What am I to do now, the only thing a simple person like me can do I guess. Accept that I have no idea how advise SM on how to improve Poser and, quite rightly, no one would listen to my suggestions anywat. So all that is left is for me to keep on enjoying myself........Oh and trust SM knows what it is doing and look forward to Poser 2013/4.

Of course along the way I can continue to improve by reading Bagginsbill's gems here at Rendo and look out for more from the PoserPlace team and all the others here that have contributed to my enjoyment of the 3Dworld.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Brrr, everybody is so "twitchy" tonight....

Poser is a GREAT app, lets have some fun.

Happy rendering everybody.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Microsoft Word is perhaps one of the most widely used productivity apps on the planet and has established some document file formats that are generally pretty well supported in other apps... ...e.g. Open Office can open .doc format etc.

OOo is able to open a .doc file because the fine folks at OpenOffice did the work of making it open... with zero help from Microsoft.

Therein lies my point. If The Poser team wants Poser to use the Genesis figure, then let them sweat out the details and make it work.

Quote - However, even at their scale and with the product coverage that MS Office has, Microsoft have still realised there is a need for them to provide plenty of extensibility and interoperability support; e.g. Word can save as Rich Text Format or as PDF, and as a variety of other, more open, or just alternative, formats.

Not entirely correct.

PDF is an add-on you have to get separately, and Microsoft pays Adobe license fees for the privilege. RTF is an ancient and crippled format. Microsoft also fought, tooth and nail, a universal (ODF) document format, so your argument of Microsoft trying to help others out is, well, not correct at all.

Quote - Plus the SDK, interop classes and developer support for MS Office...

Err, you may want to read this. And this. And this. Microsoft isn't exactly a choir of angels when it comes to documenting APIs and file formats, so they may not be your best example... ;)

Quote - > Quote - Renderosity counts all site visitors to all areas. By contrast, the only place anyone is counted number-wise is the DAZ Forums... not the galleries, the store, or what-have-you.

Sorry, not true.......your store and forum account are linked at DAZ. Those users you see are store/galleries/freebies/forum visitors. Same as here.

The forum pages are on a separate server. That little counter you see at the bottom of a forum page is the std. default phpBB counter, and it only counts the forum visitors. It gives zero indication of who is in the store (another separate server), the galleries (ditto), or anywhere else on the site.

Quote - I'm with you, I feel the same way. For now I'm using Poser and if in future it for some reason stops working, I'm going to switch most likely.

Same story here, just a different app.

Quote - What I still don't get is that how a number of people that hardly use poser did get a hold of the poser team and convinced them of changes that made a lot of poser uses abandon poser. They still hardly don't use poser, but we're stuck with an old version due to the changes made.

Yeah, I kinda wondered about that myself. On the other hand, maybe those people had the ear of Smith Micro, who in turn holds the reins, thus, well, you know...

But that's just speculation on my part, and offhand at best. It could have been some offhand meetings with Autodesk, it could have been offers of sharing bits of code, or, well - could be anything.

Quote - > Quote - What most POSER users want is to create ART. They have no desire to load, pose and render. Internet or not, you are talking about a program that takes ART one step further for ARTISTS. I don't care if it's animation, still renders or web site design.......Poser users want something not canned. It's what brings them to Poser to begin with.

Sorry, but your statement made me laugh.... a little, is it really serious?

Did you ever look at the galleries that show Poser stuff.... I don't care where they are, but they show one thing.... all poser users want do is load, pose and render. The galleries are the proof of that. The majority of Poser users want something canned, that's why the content market is huge and has lot's and lot's of content. That's what brings them to Poser to begin with. I'm not sure where you get your ideas from, they may be true for you and a small group of users, but the majority just buys content.... loads..... poses.... renders..... postworks.... submit to a gallery..... start the process all over again with the next project. That's what poser is all about. If that wasn't the case, there would not be so much content available.

Quite frankly, when I look at the Poser gallery, I rarely see a load, pose, render composition. What I see are lots of folks who don't even use default materials, but change them to taste. Styles, time to pose, specific changes to highlights are all very evident in the POSER gallery.

Are some of them pretty bad? Sure, they are, but we were all newbies once and produced equally bad renders in our day.

As a rule, however, I rarely see a load, pose, render display in the Poser gallery.

As for the others, I wouldn't know - I don't browse through them. I simply have no desire to.

Quote - > Quote - Now, would it not be great if all this had been included inside Poser?

NO, it wouldn't.

This made me want to chime in here. EZSkin, VSS and many other older hacks have been invented by a vibrant user community, but you should not forget that they address Poser shortcomings. VSS should not have to exist. EZSkin is EZ, but stops users from playing with the material room themselves. I really hope that one day the developers will fix the material room, but the danger is that they don't prioritise this because a) workaround exists and b) they don't want to alienate vendors who sell workarounds. This makes Poser more and more complex and offputting for newbies which I believe were the sentiments of the original poster.

Off topic still, I know... but here's some history on that MS Word PDF save thing:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/05/microsoft_adobe_legal_spat/

All apparently got resolved in the end... and now the save as PDF feature is actually included in the core MS Office installables.

...and who wants who to use what again?

;-)

Quote - Well, you're probably better off using each program to it's strengths as Robin suggested. Now that Daz has new management that seem to want to focus on content again, rather than software we may not see another version of DS for a LONG time. Carrara is up in the air if you've been reading anything Paolo (Preta3D - maker of Reality) has said. Hexagon is most likely dead in the water. It's hard to know at this time who is going to survive and who isn't. I put my wager on Poser. Their creators do tend to listen to their users. As for the 3DS Max thing? I don't really recall anyone screaming for 3DS Max compatibility (which Poser's had for awhile). I HAVE heard ppl asking for better rendering, better skin and better bending - which SM has really tried to address.

Laurie

Yup, use the program you need for whatever reason and if you need both to get a job done, composite the results from each.

Registered Carrara 8 users got a new beta added to our downloads on May 4th, so bug squashing continues for Carrara 8.5

Kevin

Wow, what a thread.

Just out of curiosity I reinstalled Poser 4 on one of my machines as a refresher on how easy it is to use.

There really is not that much of a difference from my perspective. The ui is still based off of the same concept. The workflow is basically the same. 2012 has lots more to it, but that can be said about any program that many versions later. If you can use Poser 4, you can use Poser 9 as soon as you install it. Granted there is a lot to learn as well, but it wont be like you went to an entirely new application.

I don't really see the correlation between Poser and 3DS Max. Very little from Max is in Poser other than what has been there for a while now. Many of the features that people talk about in 2012 were partially introduced many versions ago. Firelfy was in Poser 5, OpenGl was in Poser 6, multi thread rendering in Poser 7, etc... etc... etc...

If you want to try a program with a huge learning curve, try Houdini. It makes Max, Maya, etc, look easy. After you wrap your head around doing basically everything the same way the Poser Material room works (network nodes) you will finally be able to do something in it.

The best part about all of the programs that are out there, is that all of them do things that others do not. Sounds strange, but versitality is a good thing. It gives people a choice.

I have DStudio, and rarely use it. I have used Poser for years, and thats the main reason I do not use DS. Nothing against DS, I just know Posers file structures inside out.

If I want to make content, I fire up Blender. Its free, fairly easy to learn, and there are a ton of tutorials on it.

If I want high end, I fire up Houdini. If you find something that it wont do, chances are good there is a plugin for it, or they are working on it. Anything you can do in Poser or DS can be done in Houdini. The difference is in setting it up. Before someone chimes in and says, "But Houdini cant do Genisis", you are absolutley right. It has a much better system than that already, no need for Genesis in Houdini.

Poser and DStudio are still entry level 3D apps, there is more free content out there than most people will ever need. If one of the programs wont do what the other one does, use the other one.

Chances are really good that most people that have Poser, have DStudio installed anyway. Which in the end makes it a moot point to complain about what one will do that the other will not. Poser users complaining about DStudio stuff not working in it baffles me, especially considering DStudio is free again.

There is a lot of Poser stuff that will not work in DStudio, but you hardly ever hear any Poser user complaining about that, they already have Poser.

Imagine that...

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Well, sinec Microsoft is getting mentioned and any corp. is safer to discuss than DAZ/SM - there is the old parable from Microsoft - one version. MS once had the "world's most popular programming language," Visual Basic. Jillions of people used it from programmers to ordinary folk. There were oodles of corporate apps written with it etc. The 'real' C++ type programmers derided it for not being truly object oriented and because it enabled/encouraged people to write 'horrible' code (which sometime meant working code that they didn't write). At any rate, MS birthed .NET and in the process - allegedly- let the C++ types get a hold of VB (or so the story goes) They turned it into a 'proper' language. Unfortunately, it was so proper, that learning it was felt by many to be the equivalent of learning a whole new language. A lot of people either stuck with the old version or decided to switch to something else, since the learning curve was comparable. Market share went south and I doubt there's any less horrible code in the world. Of course, MS has the money to do this. End of digression.

*"Legacy code" is a term often used derogatorily to characterize code that is written in a language or style that (1) the speaker/writer consider outdated and/or (2) is competing with something sold/promoted by the speaker/writer. "Legacy code" often differs from its suggested alternative by actually working and scaling. - Bjarne Stroustrup, creator of C++ *

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Personally, for what I can only assume are my many past life sins, I largely write MS stuff in C# these days... and Objective-C on OS X.

Not touting either... my point is that they are simply the toolsets I use for different things.

Looking forward to getting up to speed with Python in Poser...

;-)

Sheesh, if you write in C-sharp, Python is going to be a breeze for you ... I mean, even low-intracranial-activity types like me can get the noggin around Python, particularly matmatic (Bagginsbill basically takes the negligible "pain" out of shader-coding).

Looking forward to seeing what you create, MonkeyCloud!

PS: here's fervently hoping that coding shaders is going to be as painless for Cycles (Blender Python) as it is in Poser using matmatic.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

For those that want to POST ideas on how to improve Poser there is a tread over at RDNA => New features for Poser-10;

http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?64695-New-Features-for-Poser-10

16 pages already and waiting for your constructive input.

Happy Posering,
Tony

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

"If I want high end, I fire up Houdini. If you find something that it wont do, chances are good there is a plugin for it, or they are working on it. Anything you can do in Poser or DS can be done in Houdini. The difference is in setting it up. Before someone chimes in and says, "But Houdini cant do Genisis", you are absolutley right. It has a much better system than that already, no need for Genesis in Houdini."

Hi and Thank you
What you just stated above is also true for All of the AutoDesk Apps as well( Max ,Maya,Softimage etc.)

Now if only you could make DAZ realize their Pathetic Folly in trying to get Companies that uses these high end pipelines to shoehorn a "genesis"figure into their productions.

Every time I have tried to explain to them that
the Major VFX &Game Dev Companies have no need for their genesis figures, my post gets deleted over there.

Now they have announced a new "portable" scene format called "DSON":

"DSON is about to be published. After that point anyone that wants to can write a plug-in for ANY 3D program to read the format, to include Lightwave, Cinema 4D, Max, Maya, Vue, Modo, Blender and yes, even Poser."

I still do not understand why DAZ continues to believe those high end Film ,VFX,Game Dev pros have any need for genesis or that a serious programmer who can write Mel script ,for example,would waste one second of his time decoding their External "DSON" Format to get a multi-morphing genesis figure into Maya.

When he can create his won multi-morphing Native Maya Rig as others have be doing forover a decade in Major hollywood creature VFX shots.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Now, is this a viable way to get a working Genny into Poser or just a dumb static scene import thing? ;) Cause honestly, if it ain't the former, I don't even know why any Poser/user/vendor would bother.

Laurie

Nevermind. I'm reading the thread. Why in the world would I want to import a scene? I'd still have to use DS, right? Seems like another dead end for Poser users. Oh well ;).

Laurie

"Now, is this a viable way to get a working Genny into Poser or just a dumb static scene import thing? ;)"

Well Laurie, I asked specifically in the announcement thread:"

"What Genesis Functionality will this "DSON"format provide to the user importing it into his other program(MAX,C4D,poserpro etc.)??"

The answer given was : "theoreticaly All functionality depending on how the third party wrote his own plugin"

"I'd still have to use DS, right?"

From the description I would say yes
it would likely be an additional Export option from Daz studio
ex save as FBX ,Colladda, "DSON"

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Forgive me if I reserve my judgement until I see something concrete ;). I guess Daz got sick of trying to sell the Genny idea to SM and said "**** it! Make it so the community can figure it out". Maybe.

And I probably haven't read far enough to get to your post yet...lol.

Laurie

"sick of trying to sell the Genny idea to SM and said "** it! Make it so the community can figure it out". Maybe."**

From my reading of it you will still have to have the usual content dependencies in place locally (Figure,prop,geometries,textures etc)

So IMHO I see nothing that will make Digital Domain or ILM ,Autodesk users et al, take interest in this
Much less a poser plugin writer
but we shall see I suppose.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

I glanced at your posts there Wolf, and thought at first what you were talking about was similar to the principle on which it's currently possible to import Poser scenes into Vue... where you can select the option to retain the ability to re-pose figures inside Vue... and even use Poser's shader tree when rendering.

I mean the functionality detailed here, in the "Poser Import" section:

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_modules/?page=3dimport

Basically, as I understand it, Vue loads up Poser in the background and automates it via the Poser SDK. It needs a fairly hefty amount of system resource to work well. But provided with that system resource, it does work well (provided you've also got your Poser SDK selected properly in the Vue prefs).

I'm not personally espousing this approach as a route for Genesis in Poser... just saying initially I'd jumped to the conclusion that this was what was being talked about.

But then I realised I was imagining things there... actually it sounds more equivalent to COLLADA, this DSON idea... would that be right at all???

Quote - ...

The answer given was : "theoreticaly All functionality depending on how the third party wrote his own plugin"

"I'd still have to use DS, right?"

From the description I would say yes
it would likely be an additional Export option from Daz studio
ex save as FBX ,Colladda, "DSON"

To me it sounds like they are extending the functionality of their dsf format to full scenes, not only their characters. They could easily have some success with it, because it is so simple (in my personal undiscussible opinion at least). Because when you look at the fileformats that work best for exchange of data between applications, you find obj, bvh, mdd and tga formats which have the common property of being dead simple, and less of pz3, collada, 3ds and max files, with each of them undoubtly being more powerfull than all the simple formats put together, but simply could not make it into big world of import/export formats because of their complexity. IMO especially game developers like simple formats (probably because they rather spend their time testing their games instead of reading specifications :-)

"But then I realised I was imagining things there... actually it sounds more equivalent to COLLADA, this DSON idea... would that be right at all???...

To me it sounds like they are extending the functionality of their dsf format to full scenes, not only their characters.
"

Hi when I read this:
"The new DSON (DAZ Scene Object Notation) format (yeah, the name is kinda geeky, but hey, it’s a 3D file format specification) allows items to be broken up into collections of assets that can be addressed via a lightweight scene description. This lightweight scene file can be shared with friends and passed around legally and will faithfully reproduce everything about the saved scene. This is one of the biggest changes you will see in the next release of DAZ Studio."

The first thing that came to my mind this is possibly a "scene description" file format that still requires
to have the support Data files Sort of like what the legacy PZ3 does now.

If that is the case I do see one possible advantage for a potential third party plugin developer based on my experience with

INTERPOSER PRO for Maxon Cinema4D

Interposer pro plugin for C4D reads the various poser formats in the complete absence of the poser application itself.

With it I can Load a PZ3, animated PZ2 ,MAT, pose, BVH, posers lights& cameras into C4D directly from any properly structured runtime or runtime folders.

And once in C4D I have all the parameter Dials that i would have in poser to Dial in morphs etc plus more added by the plugin that are not even available in poser.

Not sure if this is the approach Daz is taking with this new "DSON" format but We will see soon after its release.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Seems odd that they would create yet another new file format (DSON) to try to bridge to another app when there are already plenty of bridge formats out there that already work fine.

Sort of reinventing the wheel if you ask me.

That is the one thing that turns me off to DStudio, too many new file formats that do little, if anything, more than the standard opensource formats already do.

New file formats like that will never get adopted into high end apps unless there is some new awesome technology linked to it. If there is some new awesome tech, lots of companies will buy the rights to it and put it in their programs.

Sort of explains why Genesis only works in DStudio, doesn't it....

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Quote - Seems odd that they would create yet another new file format (DSON) to try to bridge to another app when there are already plenty of bridge formats out there that already work fine.

Sort of reinventing the wheel if you ask me.

Sort of explains why Genesis only works in DStudio, doesn't it....

You would expect more from a company that has tried to reinvent a better Poser and failed?

"Seems odd that they would create yet another new file format (DSON) to try to bridge to another app when there are already plenty of bridge formats out there that already work fine."

Those bridge formats don't work fine for getting a fully functional genesis into other apps...not fully at least.

"New file formats like that will never get adopted into high end apps unless there is some new awesome technology linked to it."
** If there is some new awesome tech, lots of companies will buy the rights to it and put it in their programs.**

Sort of explains why Genesis only works in DStudio, doesn't it...."

how very very true!!!

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote -
It is pointless and demoralising to pine after a figure that doesn't match your chosen technology. This is a hobby, folks. :blink:

That's what I think as well. I don't care which one is the best. If it works well in my computer, it is affordable, and I can use it, then it is good for me. I'll not seek to "convert" others to use the software I'm using.

the thing about discoveries and inventiveness, is that it stems from a need. mat files weren't part of poser but discovered by poser users, as were mor files I think, and may other great poser inovations. If we stop wanting a V5 in our runtimes we will never get one.

The pining may achieve nothing or it may lead to some great poser discovery.

so I say, pine away folks.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

Quote - Sheesh, if you write in C-sharp, Python is going to be a breeze for you ... I mean, even low-intracranial-activity types like me can get the noggin around Python, particularly matmatic (Bagginsbill basically takes the negligible "pain" out of shader-coding).

Looking forward to seeing what you create, MonkeyCloud!

PS: here's fervently hoping that coding shaders is going to be as painless for Cycles (Blender Python) as it is in Poser using matmatic.

RobynsVeil... actually I'd say C# is pretty accessible and straight forward to pick up and has few superficial differences to other contemporary objective-ey languages.

This probably has more to do with the Visual Studio IDE though... and the code completion / Intellisense etc. than anything else. I'd say overall, increasingly, the differences seem to be fewer than the similarities, between a lot of languages, at the level of C#, Java, etc... at least superficially.

Some core syntax aside...

Objective-C did certainly represent a bit more of a learning curve, if you're not coming from a C++ background. A very worthwhile learning curve though, I think... as you had to learn about memory management... and generally tidying up yor stuff, etc.

But Apple have now introduced Automatic Reference Counting (ARC)... which does, I guess, potentially make it more friendly to programmers arriving on the boat from script-kiddie land... which I did myself... originally... as well as a lot of code completion type stuff, in XCode.

But its objective javascript and python that I've been keen to get more into recently I'd say.

Again, I would be inclined to think of programming languages, IDEs, etc. as just more tools to get a job done... hammers, chisels, screwdrivers.

Sometimes, most times, in a work situation, you probably end up using what you find in the work store when you arrive on site... to fit in, and because there's an ongoing prior investment.

Still, a dremmel is a good multitool. But I wouldn't want to have to use one to try to chop down a tree...

Sorry I guess this is off topic again... still... LOL ;-)

Allways be carefull for what you ask for.
You might get it.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

About my only gripe with Python is I haven't found a really good IDE. I'm a pretty shocking programmer, overall, and really depended on VBA's (Excel) IDE, the ability to step through code, put watches on variables, etc. Yeah, you can issue the odd 'print' here and there, but sorry, that's a bit inelegant for this script-kiddie-land wannabe programmer.... :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - Allways be carefull for what you ask for.
You might get it.

Personally, I'd rather see SM work on extending the soft body dynamics stuff beyond the cloth room, short term... but I think plenty people are already also asking for that kind of stuff too.

Being able to assign groups of polygons to have varying degrees of wobbly, jelly like properties, or just make the surface of one group depress another slightly on collision, etc, would be great, no... for all sorts of things, not just human figures?

How would this work alongside the weight mapping implementation, I don't know...

Its only possible to eat so much cake in one sitting... but over time, you can hope to try every type of cake in the shop.

Provided none of the cake recipes cease being baked...

;-)

Quote - About my only gripe with Python is I haven't found a really good IDE. I'm a pretty shocking programmer, overall, and really depended on VBA's (Excel) IDE, the ability to step through code, put watches on variables, etc. Yeah, you can issue the odd 'print' here and there, but sorry, that's a bit inelegant for this script-kiddie-land wannabe programmer.... :biggrin:

I've been using Komodo Edit (the free express edition of Komodo IDE) recently for my PHP and Javascript stuff and was therefore going down the route of using this also for Python...

Available here:

http://www.activestate.com/komodo-edit

Have you tried that one RobynsVeil?

;-)

Um no, I haven't ... come to think of it, I remember someone else mentioning that to me. Trying to remember what I did next. :blink:

I'll have a go - thanks for that, MC!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

As I understand it, DSON is the file format used by DSF (and later DUF, for user files) - so since the Genesis DSF files hold everything except textures, which are linked jpgs and so on in the usual manner, a DSON importer for Poser would be stand-alone. Of course it wouldn't resolve all of the issues (SubD vs Polygon Smoothing) but to the extent that those can be worked around or resolved it would make native content available in Poser 9+. (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

still a pointless exercise, one still has to install and use DS4, to get a crippled low res figure into Poser.

DSON is a waste of programmers time, as NONE of the big apps are likely to adopt it in anyway.

It does seem that, even if possible, there would be a great deal of effort required to get Genesis into Poser and to what end. If Genesis is indeed better, I say if as I have seen nothing yet to suggest this a massive improvement, I doubt the effort would be worthwhile.

For most hobbists this would be beyond their skill set, even if they wanted to, and it seems the people in the know professionally can't see a need either. That would leave it to a very small section of people to attempt it just as a challange while most would prefer to render with what is available for Poser without all the fuss.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

A JSON reader/writer comes with Poser as part of the standard Python distribution. Also, with ctypes one can call functions in any C DLL.

The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside. We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis. Looking for rationality from DAZ over Genesis is a waste of time.

DAZ has a very heavy emotional involvement in Genesis & they are not about to let a little thing like marketplace failure intrude into their world-view. DAZ is building a walled garden for the "load - conform - make-art" crowd. It will be interesting to see what happens if the "new" website actually moves to an app store the way DAZ_Rand was talking about last Christmas.

Look at the behavior of DAZ overall. At no time will they EVER admit to having made a mistake. They don't want input from their customers - they want validation of their decisions. Why else would they ask for customer input 1 week before they release a major piece of software.

The 30 day money back guarantee isn't about customer service, it is simply easier to give money back than to fix a problem.

Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside. We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis. Looking for rationality from DAZ over Genesis is a waste of time.

DAZ has a very heavy emotional involvement in Genesis & they are not about to let a little thing like marketplace failure intrude into their world-view. DAZ is building a walled garden for the "load - conform - make-art" crowd. It will be interesting to see what happens if the "new" website actually moves to an app store the way DAZ_Rand was talking about last Christmas.

Look at the behavior of DAZ overall. At no time will they EVER admit to having made a mistake. They don't want input from their customers - they want validation of their decisions. Why else would they ask for customer input 1 week before they release a major piece of software.

The 30 day money back guarantee isn't about customer service, it is simply easier to give money back than to fix a problem.

Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

Well said! DAZ wants to re-invent an existing wheel and then wonders why no one jumps on their bandwagon!

Here's the first clue why - unfinished, buggy software with no user manual. There is a history there.

Time to take another look at this.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

I just wonder if all this happen over at the DAZ forums when the new Poser figures appear???

So, X amount of characters cannot be used in X program.

Big deal, it's not like it's important.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Quote - > Quote - (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

A JSON reader/writer comes with Poser as part of the standard Python distribution. Also, with ctypes one can call functions in any C DLL.

I wouldn't have thought that reading in the information from this DSON file would be any kind of major issue, if it is just a JSON variant, reading in text-based data itself is fairly trivial...

But I've read a bit more now and I'm thinking that, in terms of Genesis, unless the DSON file had, embedded inside it, an already subdivided genesis obj model file... I can't see how it's going to provide any more utility than the Daz Studio CR2 exporter already does...?

If that DSON file is going to be just a scene inventory... then I guess your plugin or importer would still need to read in those proprietary Daz Studio dsf asset files, do some on the fly catmull-clark subivision (don't know if there's a Python library for that) and then transpose the weight-mapping data....??? For starters...

Hmmm...

Well, it may well be possible, to do some external scripting of Blender, relative to the catmull-clark stuff? That might be an idea for anyone reading this a year from now, if writing a plugin looks like it could be a goer?

;-)

It may well be possible to make Genesis work on Poser with a lot of work. My question is, if I have something like Microsoft word that has templates to be able to write a business letter why would I spend time trying to make templates from another word processor program work in Miocrosoft word so that I could............err.... write business letters.

I accept that I am looking at Genesis from the outside because I am a Poser user and this is a Poser Forum. I have nothing against Daz or Genesis the fact is I have yet to see, I emphasis the see, why I need it. Even if it did work in Poser, out of the box, I would still need to be convinced any expense would be justified.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - Good choices as well, Monkey!

I had obviously blanked the following track from my mind earlier, when I suggested those other tracks by Phil C and band... as the YouTube comments state it caused some controversy on its release and was subsequently swept under the carpet somewhat by the band... apparently...

(language advisory due to some... indeed many... of the YouTube comments)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_61hzuGGJX0

"DSON is a waste of programmers time, as NONE of the big apps are likely to adopt it in anyway."

That is because NO ONE from the Community of professional 3D, Hollywood film VFX or game Dev artist, actually needs genesis as their proven tools &Pipelines from Autodesk,SideFX etc are more than capable of producing any morphing multi-character effect "genesis can produce.

I continue to be amazed at DAz's utter refusal to see this fact.

The only reason a professional user of the Autodesk Suite (Max Maya Softimage) or SideFX Houdini ,
would ever use a biped humanoid Figure in their
workflow is to ANIMATE IT!!.

For an animated movie
A CG Stunt double
or for a Game title.

Even Assuming I had A plugin to get a fully functional genesis into Maya or Max with Autofit CC subD etc....well ...so what!!

Am I just going to pose it & render some Sexy V5 or Hunky M5 shots with my $3500+ program and post them in my online user profile gallery , as DAz seems to think everyone aspires to do.

No I still will need(>>link PROPER ANIMATION RIGGING
to take advantage of the high end animation tools in my high end pipeline.

so that I can actually do project specific characters&creatures for "Lord of the Rings "or the "Avengers"

Why on earth would a professional Houdini artist bother to bring in a genesis mesh from some "DSON"importer When he should be building one properly animation rigged Character from scratch in his program as they all do for each & every paying client project.?

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Great video on that link Wolf - thanks - I have no sound on this system... is that Houdini?

I see they have a free apprentice edition too... and a $99 "Starving Artist" edition. Good stuff ;-)

"Great video on that link Wolf - thanks - I have no sound on this system... is that Houdini?"

Actually Sir that is an example of a really good maya rig for professional animation.

Indeed those controllers are Awesome!!!

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Ah, very nice... you'd hope it would be of course for the kind of money we're talking there ;-)

Quote - > Quote - (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

A JSON reader/writer comes with Poser as part of the standard Python distribution. Also, with ctypes one can call functions in any C DLL.

Thank you.

Quote - If that DSON file is going to be just a scene inventory... then I guess your plugin or importer would still need to read in those proprietary Daz Studio dsf asset files, do some on the fly catmull-clark subivision (don't know if there's a Python library for that) and then transpose the weight-mapping data....??? For starters...

The DSF file is, as I understand it, a DSON file - if you have access to one you will see that it contains the geometry, rigging and morph data. You are, however , right that there would remain functional obstacles in the form of Catmull-Clark SubD and smoothing and collision detection modifiers which would be needed by a fairly high proportion of content and are not available in Poser actively (though Stewer's comment about calling a DLL function does offer one ray of hope there), and UV switching, which I've no doubt could be handled via a Python script.

Quote - About my only gripe with Python is I haven't found a really good IDE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_SDK

Eclipse will run on anything that can run Java, and SDKs are available for many languages including Python.

Komodo works fine as well.

Quote - Why on earth would a professional Houdini artist bother to bring in a genesis mesh from some "DSON"importer

They would not waste their time doing so. It would require far to much work to get it to animate properly in an enviroment that accels in animations and physics. Most high end figures use as few morphs as possible and as many bones as needed to replace the morphs.

You rarely see skeletons like this in Poser.....

Morphless Character

Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->

Quote - You rarely see skeletons like this in Poser.....

Rarely?!? I've never seen one like that since 1998!

Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside. We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis.

So, err, why all the threads with that topic, and why are all the same characters giving their $0.02 in those threads?

Quote - Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

If that were true, then why all the sniping and yammering over it? By the same people? You'd think that if there are alternate solutions, folks would happily be using them and enjoying them - and not in here, griping, carping, and sniping about it.

I think daz do make really nice looking figures. I would be happy if genesis worked well in poser.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

I dont see throng of ' the same people' 'clammouring for it to work' in poser. I see a thread pop up once in a while, often for no other reason that someone has a legitimate question or is posting news. I see the same people from both sides dumping in their two cents..

on the poser side those usually arent voices that are just dying for it to work. Their voices are generally speaking against a couple of things. 1. the longstanding belief that only daz can or should supply figures for poser. and 2. pushing back against Daz intended tactic of using genesis to damage posers success. This is the poser forum. a lot of us here really like poser. It shouldnt be a surprise that we will speak of its strengths, and state, whenever it is brought up, why we dont see DS only competitive advantage against poser, genesis, as being all that compelling all things considered.

Just because we take some time to contest an opinion or statement in the forum doesn't mean we arent spending our time working with, using and developing for some of the great things that poser, and the poser community, brings to the table

Sorry if our willingness to speak our mind flys against the hope that all poser users will just pack it in and settle for the second rate renders of our M5/V4/Anubis/troll Hybrid that DS is capable of

Quote - > Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside. We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis.

So, err, why all the threads with that topic, and why are all the same characters giving their $0.02 in those threads?

Quote - Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

If that were true, then why all the sniping and yammering over it? By the same people? You'd think that if there are alternate solutions, folks would happily be using them and enjoying them - and not in here, griping, carping, and sniping about it.

The heart of my post - albeit badly eloquent - is this...

Poser 9/2012 is not selling well. No?

Any DAZ Platinum member who doesn't use Genesis is spending thousands less than they would have.

Look in the Renderosity marketplace. What are they selling? How few genesis products?

This tells you

a) Genesis is totally reliant on a few long-term buyers and a ton of brand new DS4 user buyers... they hope

b) Poser now more than ever needs a Posette because they have NO... Z E R O... characters to sustain their sales.

How many Anastasia products were added this week in the renderosity marketplace?... a marketplace that is also supporting pretty much no Genesis products?

The focus on weight maps and high end lighting screwed Poser out of long-term sales because it depends solely on the sales of Vicki4 that has been out for over 4 years and whose market is saturated.

Smith-Micro's approach depended on a Vicki5 that had the exact same approach as Vicki 1, 2 ,3 and 4... they assumd it would be useable in Poser.

I have no clue what DAZ was assuming - they fucked up completely.

So... my thinking was

A year from now... what does this mean for this entire market?

Quote - > Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside. We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis.

So, err, why all the threads with that topic, and why are all the same characters giving their $0.02 in those threads?

Quote - Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

If that were true, then why all the sniping and yammering over it? By the same people? You'd think that if there are alternate solutions, folks would happily be using them and enjoying them - and not in here, griping, carping, and sniping about it.

It is always the same people. The same 4 or 5 people.

The rest -- whose number is clearly a bit higher than that -- are indeed happily using whatever solutions they've found and enjoying the results.

I agree wholeheartedly with Esther. Daz does make nice figures. Too bad the latest don't work in Poser at this time. This has not stopped me from rendering. I read the forums here when I have one cooking.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - The heart of my post - albeit badly eloquent - is this...

Poser 9/2012 is not selling well. No?

*erm no. it's been stated that it's selling well. eg Baggins saying Amazon sold out of their order and then ordering in more. there's a lot of misinformation going around by all parties in the Poser Wars, but I think we can trust Baggins... *

Poser has always depended on Vickis to sell more Poser units.

Now it depends on weight maps and great lighting... alone?

Who should doubt Baggins?

Have you actually looked at the marketplaces? What they're selling?

Quote - > Quote - The heart of my post - albeit badly eloquent - is this...

Poser 9/2012 is not selling well. No?

*erm no. it's been stated that it's selling well. eg Baggins saying Amazon sold out of their order and then ordering in more. there's a lot of misinformation going around by all parties in the Poser Wars, but I think we can trust Baggins... *

I found Poser 8 via Amazon, from cold, with no prior knowledge of it. I bought Poser 9 on pre-order from there, after checking the specs at SM's Poser website.

I only became aware that there was a relatively new version of Carrara after placing my Poser order.

I had no knowlege of Daz Studio until after I had Poser and then discovering that the V4 and M4 figures were widely used (and had a lot of content) and were available from Daz.

How does that stack up commercially or in terms of sales flow... who knows? I sure don't...

I know that it does equate to the fact that I've invested in Poser prior to knowing of the new Daz figure, or understanding that it had been made in a way that isn't currently useable for me, within Poser. So, therefore, I'm just not likely to use it much for now.

Sure, I got the base parts for free, and I'll probably look at that, in its box, from time to time... for now. Keep an eye out for any interesting developments. Any additional choice of useable toolset is welcome...

But, whatever, I seem to have plenty other choices in terms of figure models... and apparently more on the way that are going to be optimised for the latest features in the version of Poser I have.

Am I in any way a typical new user / customer, no idea either... but probably, on some fronts at least.

My perception is that Poser had a very good, high profile product placement on Amazon around the point of the new version release... and still seems to several months later. Anyway... shrugs

Having read a little more, has anyone, maybe slightly more technical, who is actually interested in using Genesis in Poser, and has Poser 2012, tried using the free, standalone Autodesk FBX converter to take an FXB export from DS4, convert it to COLLADA, and then import that to Poser?

http://download.autodesk.com/us/fbx/2013/FBXconverter/index.html

http://usa.autodesk.com/fbx/download/

Apologies if this has already been covered off here, and I just haven't picked up on it...

EDIT: Is this back to the issue of subdivision, primarily?

Well, here are the facts as I see them: I did more than I'm obliged and tried DS4 and Genny when it came out - even as I had no intentions of ever using the program past my initial curiosity. I even exported a figure so that I could use it, statically, in Poser. What I've found is, unless I spend hundreds of dollars, Genny looked a WHOLE lot like Vicky 4 and I already have her. And in spending those hundreds of dollars, I'd still have to do backflips and jump thru hoops just to use those figures in Poser. Think back on the messes that are the Gen 4 figures. Yeah, they're popular, but they sure are a pain in the ass to use. One of the most asked questions in the forums still is "I installed Vicky and her morphs and they aren't working". I was already sick of the version 4s long before Genny came out. Truth is this is a hobby for me. If at any point it's too much of a goddamn hassle for me just to render something in it is the day I leave it behind. And I'm positive I'm not the only one here feels the exact same way. It's not my only hobby.

edit: I wanted to add one more thing. I've not seen anything so far - absolutely nothing - that impresses me so much I feel like I have to have Genesis. Some of the stuff I've seen even looks somewhat toony compared the the gen 4's. It really hasn't done anything yet to make me say "Hmm...I HAVE to have that."

Laurie

Yep, Like I wrote in the stone age:

User friendly should be high on any apps "todo" list.
1% are the experts
9% are the "we will do it"
90 % are hobby users.

You want to build a 3D app for the experts?
For the "we"ll get there in the end?"
Or for the hobby users.

Any 3D app should be as user frindly as possible, and that workflow should include the whole process; Modeling, texturing, posing, morphing, rendering.

ANy time some script surfaces, the team should see it as a flaw in the app.
If the app was complete, there would be no need for the script in the first place.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - Poser has always depended on Vickis to sell more Poser units.

Now it depends on weight maps and great lighting... alone?

Who should doubt Baggins?

Have you actually looked at the marketplaces? What they're selling?

erm. I just said what what Baggin's said about units moved. thats all. read what you want into that. I'm not interested in arguing.. just stating what was said.

"ANy time some script surfaces, the team should see it as a flaw in the app. If the app was complete, there would be no need for the script in the first place."

Well I am of the Opinion that any app that has an accessible scripting language open to the user community is a good thing.

Frankly that is what has made blender the powerhouse that it is today.

The user community adding features& capabilities.

Not some narrow minded company programmer imposing hard coded limitations
on what the app can do in each release

Were it not for scripting(Python),
to this day I doubt poser would be capable of doing
THIS

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - "ANy time some script surfaces, the team should see it as a flaw in the app. If the app was complete, there would be no need for the script in the first place."

Well I am of the Opinion that any app that has an accessible scripting language open to the user community is a good thing.

Frankly that is what has made blender the powerhouse that it is today.

The user community adding features& capabilities.

Not some narrow minded company programmer imposing hard coded limitations
on what the app can do in each release

Were it not for scripting(Python),
to this day I doubt poser would be capable of doing
THIS

Cheers

He he. Awesome bits of physics stuff demo'd there Wolf.

The segment at the end where the muscle clad guy turns round and demolishes his own house. LOL :-)

Is that PoserPhysics in action? Or something else?

I'd definitely agree with you... most of the 3d apps I use (Poser, Vue, Blender) seem to have python extensibility... and as I understand it higher end ones like Maya do too?

I don't know if there's any history of Poser's developers eventually encompassing user community innovations into the core program... they certainly bundle a variety of scripts... but the extensibility is surely key to fosteering this innovation and thereby expanding the appeal and usability of the app.

Quote - I dont see throng of ' the same people' 'clammouring for it to work' in poser. I see a thread pop up once in a while, often for no other reason that someone has a legitimate question or is posting news. I see the same people from both sides dumping in their two cents..

I agree - the same characters aren't saying they want it to work in Poser, but it seems to be the goal for them.

Quote - Their voices are generally speaking against a couple of things. 1. the longstanding belief that only daz can or should supply figures for poser. and 2. pushing back against Daz intended tactic of using genesis to damage posers success.

I'm thinking similar, but the tactic is long-term survival, not intentionally damaging some other product's success.

Honestly, competition is a good thing, and for two reasons:

it keeps all parties on their toes, driving innovation and improvement, which we customers benefit from, and
in this market, it serves as a safety, in case one or the other collapses or dies.

OTOH, it still doesn't explain why we get someone claiming long and loud that they have no need for something, and yet in every topic where that something is dicussed, there they are.

Seriously, I don't hang around in topics that discuss Poser shaders because I don't use 'em outside of Poser, even though it is nifty and would be kinda cool. Even more, I damned sure don't bag on Baggins for making Poser-only stuff, nor do I ascribe motives to him or anysuch.

Quote - Well I am of the Opinion that any app that has an accessible scripting language open to the user community is a good thing.

Frankly that is what has made blender the powerhouse that it is today.

The user community adding features& capabilities.

Not some narrow minded company programmer imposing hard coded limitations
on what the app can do in each release

Were it not for scripting(Python),
to this day I doubt poser would be capable of doing
THIS

Cheers

Quoted for complete agreement.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

"Is that PoserPhysics in action? Or something else?"

Hi indeed that is poser physics running in good old Poser 6
Here is a another example clip demonstrating an undocumented "Exploding prop" Feature that I actually discovered in poser physics
EXPLOSIONS

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

The focus on weight maps and high end lighting screwed Poser out of long-term sales because it depends solely on the sales of Vicki4 that has been out for over 4 years and whose market is saturated.

Smith-Micro's approach depended on a Vicki5 that had the exact same approach as Vicki 1, 2 ,3 and 4... they assumd it would be useable in Poser.

So... my thinking was

A year from now... what does this mean for this entire market?

A year from now I have no idea on what I will be spending my money on. Last year I spent a lot at Daz but towards the end I stopped my PC membership and now spend very little. I had no trouble spending filling my shopping cart here for over $75 to claim my prime money off voucher. That included a a few scenes, a few tutorials and other orders included stuff for V4 as I have used her so much more in her V4VM form.

So a year from now, who knows, accept I doubt very much I will be using any new Daz figure. I bet I am still spending on Poser though, somewhere - assuming I live that long.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Poser seems to be selling well enough. Amazon did sell out. People who placed orders ended up having to wait for delivery while they re-stocked. (Admittedly, Amazon had great discounts on it over the holidays, which undoubtedly helped.)

I do like DAZ's figures, but what I really miss is the content. I look at their store, and they have nice stuff for V5 that I wish I could use. Not enough to actually install DS, though.

Quote - Poser seems to be selling well enough. Amazon did sell out. People who placed orders ended up having to wait for delivery while they re-stocked. (Admittedly, Amazon had great discounts on it over the holidays, which undoubtedly helped.)

I do like DAZ's figures, but what I really miss is the content. I look at their store, and they have nice stuff for V5 that I wish I could use. Not enough to actually install DS, though.

See, when I look at their store, I see the same stuff, sold for V4, by the same vendors, trying to convince me I should spend the money for the very same product which has a higher price tag this time.

ROFL, just don't think I'm gonna fall for it twice. Especially, when the supposed selling point to the Genesis blob was that you didn't have to buy all that stuff over again.....

You know, kinda like the new tutorial that shows you how to create a figure, even though:

a) According to DAZ, the Genesis blob is the end all, be all of figure creation now and forevermore; and

b) All the newbies now downloading the expensive, "free" software need to know how to create clothes for the Genesis blob and are getting told they NEED this part too.

No one's looked on the bright side of the split yet:

At least the galleries will be less homogenous ;).

Laurie

You know what??
I am going back into the future and use the Poser 1 male and female. :-)
Nothing beats the origionals. :-)

Beam me up Scotty :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Check out hte Rendo store, check out the RDNA store and you will find items that look like those nice new Genesis ones.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Quote - "Is that PoserPhysics in action? Or something else?"

Hi indeed that is poser physics running in good old Poser 6
Here is a another example clip demonstrating an undocumented "Exploding prop" Feature that I actually discovered in poser physics
EXPLOSIONS

Cheers

Nice work there Wolf... the exploding vehicles work really well.

Major LOL at the one where the V4 gets punted into the prop with the toilet in it... and her leg is stuck through part of the exploding / collapsing prop ;-)

I look forward PoserPhysics for 2012 being released (I think its still in the works)...

Quote - Check out hte Rendo store, check out the RDNA store and you will find items that look like those nice new Genesis ones.

Perhaps. I did buy a Prime membership with the idea of doing that, but so far I haven't found anything I wanted to buy. It's just harder to find stuff here at Rosity, and harder to predict the quality of the item. DAZ has that nice money back guarantee, which makes it a lot easier to pull the trigger.

I wish I found it harder to find stuff here and at RDNA. I would be much richer! :m_smile:

I've not been disappointed with anything I've purchased either at Renderosity or RDNA but I've purchased plenty at the other place that hasn't been tested thoroughly in Poser and so has had to be fixed by me or returned. I guess that is why they need that guarantee. I'm tired of being a beta tester for them and have bought absolutely nothing there in almost a year. However, I've had Render Rewards here every month this last year. I love the Prime category too. Plenty of high quality bargains in there and much better than the PC. :m_smile:

I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I would like. I just find the sheer number of offerings overwhelming. Trying to weed through it all...

Wow, that looks really good wolf!

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month. Oh, and it's free!

**Glitterati3D wrote;
**> Quote - See, when I look at their store, I see the same stuff, sold for V4, by the same vendors, trying to convince me I should spend the money for the very same product which has a higher price tag this time. ROFL, just don't think I'm gonna fall for it twice. Especially, when the supposed selling point to the Genesis blob was that you didn't have to buy all that stuff over again.....

You don't need to buy it all over a second time, you can convert them easily enough with the CCT. The main reason they are in the store is for new people who don't have V4.

Quote - You know, kinda like the new tutorial that shows you how to create a figure, even though: a) According to DAZ, the Genesis blob is the end all, be all of figure creation now and forevermore; and

b) All the newbies now downloading the expensive, "free" software need to know how to create clothes for the Genesis blob and are getting told they NEED this part too.

"Whether you want to create an original, stand-alone figure, or create an add-on figures for geo-grafting, or just learn more about weight-mapping and adding ghost bones for use in clothing creation, this tutorial will teach you all the basics you need to know.

Coldrake*

Urgh. The usual suspects just don't get it, and it's getting in the way of the actual good stuff. :/

Don't mind me though - I'm only posting this to unsubscribe. To those usual suspects? Enjoy that keg o' bile you seem to be swilling, campers... and try not to be too angry surprised when both companies continue to grow and thrive, in spite of your worst efforts to influence prophesies otherwise.

Quote - No one's looked on the bright side of the split yet:

At least the galleries will be less homogenous ;).

Laurie

Now now! Don't go bringing us Homo's into this cat fight! Erm... oh... wait... nevermind!

Quote - OTOH, it still doesn't explain why we get someone claiming long and loud that they have no need for something, and yet in every topic where that something is dicussed, there they are.

I think the explanation may be quite simple. Some people visit the forums while waiting for renders. Unfortunately, the forums aren't quite active enough to keep a person going through a quality render unless there's a thread with at least a bit of controversy. So peeps flock to such threads. This issue provides guaranteed short-term distraction. Posting in such a thread, however, is not equivalent to having any real emotions about the issue at hand. Might be anger, resentment, bitterness, idealism, enthusiasm -- but could just as easily be curiosity, or sheer boredom.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I'm mildly curious about this: I'm picking up that there are those who feel strongly that Poser users should be upset/annoyed/dismayed/some-other-unhappy-sentiment because of their chosen software's inability to support another software's figure and the technology that figure represents. This appears to be the message of the OP and several other posters.

Those posters are contrasted by enthusiastic Poser users (with a few exceptions) who are clearly saying they're quite happy not being able to use those figures. That doesn't seem to please those other-technology proponents, who seem to want Poser users to demand to their software developer that Poser be able to use this other software's figure and incorporate the technology necessary for those figures into Poser. Enthusiastic Poser users counter with the statement that they perfectly content that Smith Micro has decided to focus on weight-mapping and better, more sophisticated materials, but that doesn't seem to satisfy those intent on making Poser users want/need these competitive/incompatible figures.
Which, frustratingly enough to those individuals, doesn't seem to be happening.

It's always those same people, too. You can pretty much predict what will be said.

I'm working in Blender 2.63. Jeez, if I were going to proselitise, caustics, node-based glass with an IOR channel, real-time preview rendering, materials that boggle the mind. Blender knocks the socks off what I'm rendering in Poser. But, I'm leaving it alone. I'll just use Blender for what it does best.

We Poser-users already have figures galore. You want more? Have a look at what Turbo-Squid has to offer and ask Smith Micro for SubD in the next version of Poser. Don't limit yourselves. Do think outside of the content-creator-as-standard-setter box.

There is some awesome stuff out there. And more on the way.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Quote - **Glitterati3D wrote;
**> Quote - See, when I look at their store, I see the same stuff, sold for V4, by the same vendors, trying to convince me I should spend the money for the very same product which has a higher price tag this time. ROFL, just don't think I'm gonna fall for it twice. Especially, when the supposed selling point to the Genesis blob was that you didn't have to buy all that stuff over again.....

You don't need to buy it all over a second time, you can convert them easily enough with the CCT. The main reason they are in the store is for new people who don't have V4.

Quote - You know, kinda like the new tutorial that shows you how to create a figure, even though: a) According to DAZ, the Genesis blob is the end all, be all of figure creation now and forevermore; and

b) All the newbies now downloading the expensive, "free" software need to know how to create clothes for the Genesis blob and are getting told they NEED this part too.

"Whether you want to create an original, stand-alone figure, or create an add-on figures for geo-grafting, or just learn more about weight-mapping and adding ghost bones for use in clothing creation, this tutorial will teach you all the basics you need to know.

Coldrake*

ROFL, yep......DAZ's entire existence is based on finding enough suckers to fall for the marketing.

Once more:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2848343

Can we please abide by established forum policy?

Quote - > Quote - No one's looked on the bright side of the split yet:

At least the galleries will be less homogenous ;).

Laurie

Now now! Don't go bringing us Homo's into this cat fight! Erm... oh... wait... nevermind!

Gawd Steve...lol. :P

Laurie

"...really depended on VBA's (Excel) IDE... "

Maybe take a look at Iron Python aka Python for .NET so you could use the Visual Studio IDE - still the best in the business IMO.

I used C a lot in the ancient past and later Delphi, now VB+Win32. Since I only program for myself now that's it as long as there's a VM if needed to run it :-) If I take up anything else, it might be something off the wall like Lua.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - I'm mildly curious about this: I'm picking up that there are those who feel strongly that Poser users should be upset/annoyed/dismayed/some-other-unhappy-sentiment because of their chosen software's inability to support another software's figure and the technology that figure represents. This appears to be the message of the OP and several other posters.

Those posters are contrasted by enthusiastic Poser users (with a few exceptions) who are clearly saying they're quite happy not being able to use those figures. That doesn't seem to please those other-technology proponents, who seem to want Poser users to demand to their software developer that Poser be able to use this other software's figure and incorporate the technology necessary for those figures into Poser. Enthusiastic Poser users counter with the statement that they perfectly content that Smith Micro has decided to focus on weight-mapping and better, more sophisticated materials, but that doesn't seem to satisfy those intent on making Poser users want/need these competitive/incompatible figures.
Which, frustratingly enough to those individuals, doesn't seem to be happening.

Very cogent observation, indeed.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: DAZ and Poser messed up