I got an email today from Daz offering special M4 and V4 bundles.  I guess they are offering  these for Poser only users.  They are nice bundles for those who don't already have them.  Still looking for new content here, but I'm not finding a lot that isn't M and V 4 oriented.  Well I'm glad that there are new things being developed, we just need to patient.

Quote - I got an email today from Daz offering special M4 and V4 bundles.  I guess they are offering  these for Poser only users.  They are nice bundles for those who don't already have them.  Still looking for new content here, but I'm not finding a lot that isn't M and V 4 oriented.  Well I'm glad that there are new things being developed, we just need to patient.

I'm glad we (my Mom and I) bought all that stuff individually years ago.  It was much cheaper then.

They really should take some bundle lessons from Renderosity - bundles HERE are a deal.

There is absolutely nothing new in those bundles except for more content. 

it does seem a pretty steep price, but since I have had most if not all of that for quite some time its tough to remember how much I paid all together.  Plus it was a different time, a time when my money flowed much more freely into 3d pursuits!

 

I guess the thinking is that if the poser crowd wont bite on genesis, they'll squeeze whatever cash they can from them this way.  On the bright side it really makes alternate base figures more attractive to the new user, or the old user trying to rebuild their runtime.   To me thats not a bad thing

Quote - it does seem a pretty steep price, but since I have had most if not all of that for quite some time its tough to remember how much I paid all together.  Plus it was a different time, a time when my money flowed much more freely into 3d pursuits!

 

I guess the thinking is that if the poser crowd wont bite on genesis, they'll squeeze whatever cash they can from them this way.  On the bright side it really makes alternate base figures more attractive to the new user, or the old user trying to rebuild their runtime.   To me thats not a bad thing

I'm a pack rat and have kept a copy of every order I've ever placed.  Yeah, I went back and checked.  We got a lot in crazy sales, but didn't pay nearly that price for the same products purchased separately.

The Pro Bundle looks like the same stuff at the same price it was in 2006.

I own virtually everything except V4 Destroyer (which I don't miss!). Much of the stuff I got cheap in PC Anniversary Sales.

Speaking of the PC, the new store roll-out next week turns the monthly PC voucher into a coupon that may only be used on DAZ originals, has to be used in one shot and any left-over balance is lost.  There has been no official announcment of this on the PC forum, only in the Commons.

Looks like I'm going to be cleaning the remaining PC items off my wishlist and heading out of Dodge...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Really WandW? um yeah that would do it.

Just snagged my wishlist full of Lisa's Botanicals! OUCH! But Now I'm done with the PC club and my wishy washy list is empty.

Looks like it would be a good time for Rendo to beef up Prime.

I have PC paid for until end of October, wonder if I can get a refund.

Quote - Looks like I'm going to be cleaning the remaining PC items off my wishlist and heading out of Dodge...

Did the same today.  Checked to make sure that I hadn't forgotten any prerequisite items, and then sent a support ticket to sales requesting refund of unused months (my membership extends to October 2013).

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I let my PC membership expire and I don't miss it.

I never joined PC - it was sometimes almost worth it, but only almost, since I don't like to shop at only one store. This bundle would be good for people who are just starting and who have lots of money to spend. I already have so much M4 and V4 stuff that I am not tempted.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Thanks for the heads up WandW.  I've just bought about $20.00 worth of Lisa's botanicals and set my PC monthly membership to not auto-renew.  I also see that you will not be able to pay for monthly PC membership by PayPal, at least for the time being.    As I am not in the US my bank will charge me an overseas transaction fee (about £2.00, in my case) every month - which is just the final straw.

btw the '30 day,no questions, money back guarantee'  has been changed as well. product returns will not get you your money refunded anymore, you just get store credit.

stated by 'Skondris' at the 'new store/forum' thread in the daz commons forum.

I had PC membership for a number of years but let it lapse last year.  I was paying on a monthly basis and found that most months I was not using the voucher.  I still buy from Daz but it must average about one item every six to eight weeks.  My spending here and at RDNA has taken over (I normally qualify for the $100+ voucher each month - I know, way too much) and, as prime started just as I finished my PC membership finished, I signed up for that and I am using that a lot more.

 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

"...btw the '30 day,no questions, money back guarantee'  has been changed as well. "

That was the best thing in their store - the guarantee.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

Wow...  Seems like they are removing a lot of things that users liked (mainly because the new platform doesn't support it, but still).

Why launch a new system and then go back and mod it in later?  Just sounds like it's going to irritate folks.

So they are going to zips but before they often cited that the reason there were installers was so that you'd agree to the license.

scratching head

.

My PC goes in 3 days and I'm happy to spend my money elsewhere!!!

So, come on Rendo, get that Prime membership back to it's intro offer of $25 and you will pick up quite a few members!!!!!

You know it makes sense!!!

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

I'm sure I won't find it too difficult to spend an extra $7.95 a month here! :-)

Very easy!!! Lol.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Steve Kondris finally posted in the PC forum confirming that it is indeed a limitation of the store software, but they favour reliability over providing those benefits; considering the problems when they switched over to the current version of the Store, it may not seem an unreasonable business decsion from Management's standpoint.  There is some possibility of allowing the monthly coupon to be used on PC items if the order is a minimum of $10, but that apparently hasn't yet been decided...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Perhaps they should also post what he said in the commons for those that are considering the PC.

Not everyone in that PC section is happy about what has been said.

Also, some comments appearing in the Studio section forums:-

LINK

As they didn't know about the new TOS, so I posted a link for them.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

I'd not hear that they are going to .zip files, I like the installers because you then have an uninstaller if you accidently place somethindirector wrong directory.  I use my voucher every month and have gotten big discount via PC so I'm keeping mine.

Quote - Wow...  Seems like they are removing a lot of things that users liked (mainly because the new platform doesn't support it, but still).

Why launch a new system and then go back and mod it in later?  Just sounds like it's going to irritate folks.

So they are going to zips but before they often cited that the reason there were installers was so that you'd agree to the license.

scratching head

From the outside looking in, it seems they are working extra hard to anger their most loyal supporters.  Between the software giveaway, and now this, they seem to be going in the wrong direction.

scratching head, too

I'm not sure of what to name it, but Daz seems to have discovered and frequently utilized the opposite of good customer service. Seldom have I seen a company so set of a course of alienating it's customers. Time to reconsider my monthly PC membership.

Quote - I'd not hear that they are going to .zip files, I like the installers because you then have an uninstaller if you accidently place somethindirector wrong directory.  I use my voucher every month and have gotten big discount via PC so I'm keeping mine.

OMG I detest the installers. Always have. Next version of Windows we may not even be able to run them anymore due to differences in operating systems. It was a bullshit decision and always was. We ALL were shouting for zips for years.

Laurie

Quote - I'm not sure of what to name it, but Daz seems to have discovered and frequently utilized the opposite of good customer service. Seldom have I seen a company so set of a course of alienating it's customers. Time to reconsider my monthly PC membership.

Agree with this. Most companies value their loyal customers. Seems like they actually show contempt for them and are working hard to get rid of them.

Was a PC member ever since it started. Not any more. Rendo and RDNA get my custom and money these days. I'm in the Prime and often get RR here. These stores seem better able to understand their customers and offer a more stable and respectful commercial environment.

 

 

"Quote - "I'm not sure of what to name it, but Daz seems to have discovered and frequently utilized the opposite of good customer service. Seldom have I seen a company so set of a course of alienating it's customers."

I honestly don't think DAZ is in any Danger of "losing" any significant amount of customers with their store policies.

The for this is obvious.

Where else is there a viable alternative at this point in time??

Maybe some people will drop the monthly PC Club thing but they will still buy from there

To "leave" DAZ is to Leave the latest Vicky& Mike(genesis) and all of the really Good &new content.

Good news about the Zips though as the installers had become quite a problem on the Mac side with OSX 10.7  I had heard.

Cheers
 

My website

YouTube Channel

To "leave" DAZ is to Leave the latest Vicky& Mike(genesis) and all of the really Good &new content.

If you don't use them, you are not going to miss them.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Quote - "Quote - "I'm not sure of what to name it, but Daz seems to have discovered and frequently utilized the opposite of good customer service. Seldom have I seen a company so set of a course of alienating it's customers."

I honestly don't think DAZ is in any Danger of "losing" any significant amount of customers with their store policies.

The for this is obvious.

Where else is there a viable alternative at this point in time??

Maybe some people will drop the monthly PC Club thing but they will still buy from there

To "leave" DAZ is to Leave the latest Vicky& Mike(genesis) and all of the really Good &new content.

Good news about the Zips though as the installers had become quite a problem on the Mac side with OSX 10.7  I had heard.

Cheers
 

That's only true for those addicted to DAZ figures.

Seems to me lots of folks are doing just fine at the end of the DAZ Poser compatible figures.

"That's only true for those addicted to DAZ figures.

Seems to me lots of folks are doing just fine at the end of the DAZ Poser compatible figures."

Quite true
but considering the times when someone writes "DAZ's Loyal customers"

I tend to assume DS4/genesis users.

IMHO Poser users who are already effectively locked out of the new Ecosystem of  Figure content would no longer fit My definition of "Loyal customers" by virtue of this fact.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Example:-

A Store has products that two sets of software users can use. The sfotware makes no difference to this example, any will do.

This store then begins to lessen the products for one set of software and increase the amount of products for the other set of software.

Those that want the lesser supplied software ask for more products for them to buy.

The store carries on and does not listen.

The store has a club that includes incentives for those in it.

It is noted that the items for the mentioned club also drop for one type of software and these again ask for more items.

Again, the store carries on with the increase on one side, while dropping the items of the other to a minimum.

They now change the rules for their incentives club so that one side again has little to nothing to gain from the club.

Now, after reading that, what would you do as a customer and a member of the incentives club?

I have deliberatly, not mentioned the software, the store or the incentives club as they do not matter in this example. These could be anywhere.

I for one would drop from the incentives club as there is no reason for me to pay out a certain amount each month to not get back anything in return.

Would I use the store if I needed something and it was there? Yes I would. I know I would have to pay a higher price for not being in the incentives club, but that is something that would make no difference. If I wanted something, I would buy it.

The above is just an example that can work in any type of business be it IT, recreation, big business etc.

The example is NOT intended to inflame or do anything else but explain a point. Other can and will have their own opinions.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

IMHO Poser users who are already effectively locked out of the new Ecosystem of  Figure content would no longer fit My definition of "Loyal customers" by virtue of this fact.

Please, please don't lets get into that type of thing. A customer can be loyal and a Poser user.

Some still buy props etc. and are loyal to various PA's over there as some are also loyal to PA's on other sites.

You are fully entitled to your opinion on a loyal customer, but others may take the comment a bit worse than I did.

I can understand where it came from, perhaps a follow on with how you came to the opinion you did might help others reactions.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Daz will have customers as long as Stonemason posts his wares there. Now, if that changes...

The bit about the zips is great new. I wonder if they will go back and repackage all of the old content that way? I'd re-download all my stuff just to get the zips!

Quote - Daz will have customers as long as Stonemason posts his wares there. Now, if that changes...

The bit about the zips is great new. I wonder if they will go back and repackage all of the old content that way? I'd re-download all my stuff just to get the zips!

 

ummm stonemason has a store on his site already where he sells some of the products he offers at daz ;)

"They now change the rules for their incentives club so that one side again has little to nothing to gain from the club.

Now, after reading that, what would you do as a customer and a member of the incentives club?"

To be very frank  sir
I am not the best person to respond to your example for the following reason:

I personally believe that joining a fee based
"Club" at any retailer is only a rational decision in a very limited set of circumstances.

Such as when the products and or services are ESSENTIAL to ones Literal Survival or at the very least highly desirable to accommodate a certain continuing standard of living.

Example a "club" membership to a Food or clothing
as you will always need replenishment of these item as a human being in general .

Or perhaps "Fuel" club to get discounted gasoline to accommodate ones lifestyle reference of Driving over public trains& busses
or "travel club" for frequent flier discounts.

Paying  monthly "platinum Club" Fees to feed ones utterly sad & pointless "Digital Hoarding" Compulsion to fill up hard drive after hard drive with "virtual clothing,hair,makeup", is not rational consumer behavior in the first place.
so wether that retailers policies/rules are good/fair/Changing is rather Moot IMHO.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Some very valid points.

Most people that have been in the PC do it for getting things at a lower price.

Human nature as it is, people will always try to get things for a lower price as possible.

But apply the example I gave for a Food Club.

Hopefully I'm not going to get vegetarians after me now!!! Lol.

The club starts off as mainly meat eaters, with a few vegetarians.

Eventually more vegetarians are part of the club and the type of meals changes more to vegetarian and the meat eaters have less choice.

They then change the club rules so that the meat eaters are left out entirely.

As you can see, the same example works in various formats.

I think it all comes down to balance.

If one side of the systemstore etc. is balanced too much in one way, then problems start.

It's very hard to make everyone happy all the time, but sometimes business decissions do seem so odd with little to no explanation of how they can to it.

Vegetarians, please note, I'm not against you!!!! I just used you as an example. lol.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

"Please, please don't lets get into that type of thing. A customer can be loyal and a Poser user.

Certainly I was a "Loyal Customer" of "Sanctumart".
No matter where he sold( His own site ,CP, DAZ.)

But I was Never a "Loyal Customer"of DAZ inc the company

Many poser user were "Loyal Customers" of DAZ inc. however based on their reference for the latest iteration of  two DAZ original products.
Vic/Mic and all of  the associated content

and even joined that  DAZ PC Club.

Feel free to Go and ask them if they are still "Loyal DAZ customers" now that they can not use  the latest iteration of Vic/Mic ,and all of  the associated content ,in their program of "comfort/Choice" or whatever.

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

I think a lot of people "used" to be loyal to DAZ  the company up to a certain time.

This was because they did listen etc.

After that point in time something happened and it all went pear shaped.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

A thought:-

As a Poser PC member can you remember when your voucher would be used within a day or two of the start of the month?

Then it would take longer and longer to use it.

Then it would get near the end of the month and you would still have a full voucher.

All the best.

LROG

Who honors those we love for the very life we live?, Who sends monsters to kill us?, and at the same time sings that we will never die., Who teaches us whats real?, and how to laugh at lies?, Who decides why we live and what we'll die to defend?, Who chains us?, and Who holds the key that can set us free... It's You!, You have all the weapons you need., Now Fight!

Well if they are moving over to zips I for one appluade their change of heart.  It was only a few months ago that someone from Daz stated they would not go down that route and gave a number of reasons to justify their position.  It won't actaully make me buy any more than I would have done but I will feel a lot happier installing what I do buy, I have always hated their installers.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I like the idea of zips, but that has little to do with being a member. A zip would factor into buying a item, but if the pc item is not something I use it's not a factor. Prime stuff is all zips, so it just comes down to if will I use it.

Quote - "That's only true for those addicted to DAZ figures.

Seems to me lots of folks are doing just fine at the end of the DAZ Poser compatible figures."

Quite true
but considering the times when someone writes "DAZ's Loyal customers"

I tend to assume DS4/genesis users.

IMHO Poser users who are already effectively locked out of the new Ecosystem of  Figure content would no longer fit My definition of "Loyal customers" by virtue of this fact.

Cheers

 

You bring up a very interesting point about what a loyal customer is. In my book a loyal customer is not someone who blindly follows what a company does but more a customer who prefers that company over others and will try to keep that company on course. I do not mean to be offensive but I think you are referring more to a sheep.

From http://www.loyaltyresearch.com/media/thought-perspectives/Customer%20Loyalty%20Thought%20Perspective.pdf

Quote - Loyalty can be defined as customers continuing to believe that one organization’s products/services offer remains their best option. It meets their value proposition whatever that may be. They take that offer whenever faced with
that purchasing decision.
Moreover, loyalty means hanging in there even when there may be a problem because the organization has been good to them in the past and addresses issues when they arise. It means that they do not seek out competitors and, when approached by competitors, are not interested. It also means being willing to spend the time and effort to communicate with the organization so as to build on past successes and overcome any weaknesses.

In a nutshell, loyalty means a customer wants to do business with you and does.

Many people over in their forums are trying to communicate with them so they can build on past successes. They may not be DS4 users. Not everyone thinks G is the best thing for the company even though they are loyal customers. Whether they are right or wrong is moot in this case.

A company builds and retains loyalty by:

(from http://www.customerloyalty.org/what-is-customer-loyalty/)

1. keeping touch with customers using email marketing, thank you cards and more.

Daz has done this in the past but it now looks like it is cutting back on certain perks.

2. treating your team well so they treat your customers well.

Lately it is questionable whether they have treated customers well. For example, those people who spend over four hundred dollars on a program just for it to be offered free a little later. They had to make a big fuss before things were sorted out for them and this is just one example. I'm not even going to touch upon how certain PAs behave towards their customers in their forum.

3. showing that you care and remembering what they like and don’t like.

Only when a big fuss is made in the forum do they seem to remember what customers like and don't like. They cultivated an environment whereas if customers where not happy with things they complained about them very vocally until something was done. Now they are lashing back at the very culture they created.

4. You build it by rewarding them for choosing you over your competitors.

They seem to be more interested in the new customer. Many of the deals benefit the new customer or customers who do not spend much rather than their long term spending customers such as the current V4/M4 bundle which many long term customers already have.

5. You build it by truly giving a damn about them and figuring out how to make them more success, happy and joyful.

I don't think this is happening. There seems to be too many unhappy folks around at the moment, too many posts deleted from unhappy customers in their forum and too many complaints all around the internet. I don't see the happy and joyful customers except for a very small minority.

Therefore, I think the company is turning away their loyal customers whether they are DS users or not. Daz used to be the first place I would go to shop. Now it is the last place and it has nothing to do with their software but more to do with how they treat their customers.

"You bring up a very interesting point about what a loyal customer is. In my book a loyal customer is not someone who blindly follows what a company does but more a customer who prefers that company over others and will try to keep that company on course. I do not mean to be offensive but I think you are referring more to a sheep.

First no offense taken because with your use of the term "Sheep" you have rather bluntly stated what I chose not to state for the sake avoiding controversy.

Your post by and large is very thoughtful and well written.
However those retailer/Customer concepts, to which you refer,
do not take into account several very important factors relatively unique to the Daz/poser market and by extension computer software in general in some cases.

Fear of Change/learning something new.

Fear of some perceived loss of an "investment' in program specific content one has frankly "hoarded" over several years

Extreme almost evangelical devotion& Emotional attachment to one particular software application.

A true lack of affordable alternative options that also offer the same comfortable/familiar user experience.

The above and Many other factors Put companies Like DAZ ,and whomever owns poser ATM ,in a rather unique position of advantage over their users That a fast food chain( for example) would never enjoy.

Much like the control farmers have over a "fenced in' herd "of "sheep"

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - "You bring up a very interesting point about what a loyal customer is. In my book a loyal customer is not someone who blindly follows what a company does but more a customer who prefers that company over others and will try to keep that company on course. I do not mean to be offensive but I think you are referring more to a sheep.

First no offense taken because with your use of the term "Sheep" you have rather bluntly stated what I chose not to state for the sake avoiding controversy.

Your post by and large is very thoughtful and well written.
However those retailer/Customer concepts, to which you refer,
do not take into account several very important factors relatively unique to the Daz/poser market and by extension computer software in general in some cases.

Fear of Change/learning something new.

Fear of some perceived loss of an "investment' in program specific content one has frankly "hoarded" over several years

Extreme almost evangelical devotion& Emotional attachment to one particular software application.

A true lack of affordable alternative options that also offer the same comfortable/familiar user experience.

The above and Many other factors Put companies Like DAZ ,and whomever owns poser ATM ,in a rather unique position of advantage over their users That a fast food chain( for example) would never enjoy.

Much like the control farmers have over a "fenced in' herd "of "sheep"

Cheers

 

Thank you for your response. You have given me more to think about. Selling online is different from selling in a high street too but the concepts are similar.

I don't mean to be blunt but I do seem to have a habit for it. I think it has more to do with where I was born where people call "a spade a spade". :m_smile:

My loyalty to any company goes as far as my need and/or desire for the stuff they sell, compared with other suppliers and their respective prices.

I'd buy from DAZ if they sold something I wanted/needed but I've never felt any compulsion to buy there, regardless.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Quote - > Quote - I'd not hear that they are going to .zip files, I like the installers because you then have an uninstaller if you accidently place somethindirector wrong directory.  I use my voucher every month and have gotten big discount via PC so I'm keeping mine.

OMG I detest the installers. Always have. Next version of Windows we may not even be able to run them anymore due to differences in operating systems. It was a bullshit decision and always was. We ALL were shouting for zips for years.

Laurie

The installers for the older products already don't work on OS X Lion, due to the removal in Lion of the Rosetta Power PC emulator, by Apple. 

I've had to run quite a lot of the Daz installers for older products on an old macbook pro and then transfer the files... 

When e-Frontier owned Poser they had a Platinum Club like program and then they released the G-2 series and tons of content for them.  I really think Smith Micro should consider doing something like that again--they are working on a better looking male figure--Miki 4 will be coming out soon and I can't but believe a better looking general female is in the wings.  Any new figures wouldn't do well, however, without extra content for them and vendor support.  I belonged the Content Paradise's club--they even had a free model every week like Daz does--I got a lot of nice animals that way.   If Poser as a software is to survive having content that people will want to buy and use with it is essential.  As my other thread indicates I'm waiting patiently for new stuff, but development takes time.

OH I can't stand the CP store, I hope if they release a new figure they do it somewhere else.

Personally I would like to see SM continue to develop their relationship with RDNA. They already have their official forum there.

I love RDNA, but since I don't use a lot of females in my pictures they don't often have stuff that interests me--they do have a lot of nice things too.  I've bought a lot of light sets and the Terradome and other stuff from them.  They used to have more stuff for male figures though and don't seem to be carrying very much these days--I did get Tool Boi there though and a few other male characters for M4.   The only reason I said Content Paradise is because it is the content site that belongs to SM--it also sells content for their other programs.  I wouldn't be adverse to them merging with RDNA though and wouldn't mind seeing Content Paradise going bye-bye.  They do have some exclusive items though--like stuff for the Chunk toon character.

I'm having a hard time thinking of many examples of "loyalty" among consumers.  It seems to me that people almost always tend to choose the best deal they can find, as long as searching for it doesn't take more effort than it's worth.  I tend to pick the same brands of toothpaste and shampoo, for instance, because it's not worth my time to find others I will like -- unless someone offers me a good deal on something new or different.

The only exception I can think of is the Apple/PC divide. 

I wonder just exactly how many "loyal DAZ customers" have never bought any 3d content anywhere else, because it seems to me that simply buying a lot of stuff does not make one particularly loyal (any more than sleeping with someone frequently embues a person with a particular degree of fidelity).  I would think that exclusivity would be a necessary component of loyalty.

Then again, maybe in the age of internet forums, "loyalty" means: "Not publicly talking crap about a business." I wonder how valuable such a trait is in one's customers.  Is it as valuable these days, especially for internet based businesses, as the traditional exclusive shopper sort of loyalty?

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Whatever the other changes, I think the loss of the money back guarantee is the most significant. That probably set them apart to some degree and it was always IMO, a powerful point in their favor. I have no idea how much revenue they may have 'lost' over the years because of it. Maybe it was a money decision or maybe the new boss just didn't cotton to the idea.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

lmckenzie wrote;

Quote - Whatever the other changes, I think the loss of the money back guarantee is the most significant. That probably set them apart to some degree and it was always IMO, a powerful point in their favor. I have no idea how much revenue they may have 'lost' over the years because of it. Maybe it was a money decision or maybe the new boss just didn't cotton to the idea.

 

DAZ still has the 30 day money back guarantee. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

 

Coldrake

 

The definition of loyalty is a difficult one, especially in the present finacial climate.

Outside of the 3D world I have in interest in computers and, when the weather is good I have a live steam model railway in the garden.  In both cases I buy from small shop and the raliway one requires me to drive almost 100 miles passing many similar shops along the way.  I do so because they were good to me when I started the hobby and I have been buying from them for over 10 years.  I can get a better price on line but not the advice or the support.  I do buy from other suplliers but only after checking with them and seeing if they have a supplier.  I think that is fairly loyal though not exclusive.  In the case of the computer shop his pricing is keen and although more expensive than the Internet they are not greedy and his prices for things like cables are realistic.

Working in retail am quite accustomed to people coming into the shop for advice and then leaving and I know in most cases that they will use that advice and buy on-line, a fact of life these days.  Where they go for advice when all the high street is shut I am not too sure.

Of course buying for Poser and Daz is all On Line but there is still the choice.  For example some of the items at Content Paradise can also be purchased from Rendo and Rendo gets money every time in such cases and that is because they run forums like this and should be supported.  Maybe not loyal, or exclusive, but I do try and give my custom to those who I feel support their customers.

At the end of the day if you don't like one companies customer service either vote with your feet, your wallet/purse or both.  Companies should earn our custom not take it for granted.

 

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - A thought:-

As a Poser PC member can you remember when your voucher would be used within a day or two of the start of the month?

Then it would take longer and longer to use it.

Then it would get near the end of the month and you would still have a full voucher.

All the best.

LROG

 

Yup. I let my PC membership of several years expire last year as I hadn't been using the vouchers. It was just costing money.

I have no problem spending my voucher every month, there's always something on my wish list or a new product that I want to use it towards.  Not to mention big discounts on a lot of things for PC members.  I get my money's worth.

I think if Daz developed a line of Poser only content and had a separate Poser store it would help.  They could develop a couple of premium Poser weight mapped figures and stuff for them and then everyone would have something.  My whole point is that I don't know how many additional miles one can wring out of M4 and V4 before everyone gets totally bored with them.

Quote - lmckenzie wrote;

Quote - Whatever the other changes, I think the loss of the money back guarantee is the most significant. That probably set them apart to some degree and it was always IMO, a powerful point in their favor. I have no idea how much revenue they may have 'lost' over the years because of it. Maybe it was a money decision or maybe the new boss just didn't cotton to the idea.

 

DAZ still has the 30 day money back guarantee. Where do you come up with this stuff?

  

Coldrake

 

 

read the posts by Skondris in the 'new website' thread at daz commons, he clearly states that product returns will result in store credit, NOT a refund of money ( which is actually contrary to Utah business/consumer law)

 

Actually with software even store credit is something that people really can't complain about.  I can't tell you how many times in the past I bought buggy software and could not get any type of refund.  With some companies once you install it on your computer you're out of luck.  I bought an older product at Daz laz month that didn't work right with the current Poser or Daz Studio and they gave me a store credit  and I used it for something else and I was very happy with that.

Quote - Actually with software even store credit is something that people really can't complain about.  I can't tell you how many times in the past I bought buggy software and could not get any type of refund.  With some companies once you install it on your computer you're out of luck.  I bought an older product at Daz laz month that didn't work right with the current Poser or Daz Studio and they gave me a store credit  and I used it for something else and I was very happy with that.

 

It is really up to each individual custromer to decide if a voucher is acceptable, providing it is clear that this is the case before purchase, particularly as this is a change in the terms.  If it is indeed against the law that is another mattter.

I agree with you about the software, I purchased some software years ago and only after I had used the trial.  The software would not work on the same system in any way.  Customer Services response was 'tough' and even said I should not use the trial as an indication that the final release product will work.  Not sure why they even bothered with a trial unless it was to get the public to do their testing for them.  End result - no refund, however I have never purchased any software with that companies name on it since.  If fact I have my own 'blacklist' of companies that I will not buy from under any circumstances and happliy some have been removed because they have since gone bust, so I suspect I was not alone.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

I didn't know about / pay proper attention to the full refund terms at Daz to be honest...

I might have been tempted to use it to return the Genesis Evolution Morph package, which I got some time back, before realising the the DS4 CR2 exporter only put out a lo res mesh...

LOL ;-)

Meh, never mind... I'll probably still use that for dialling up lo-res background characters to populate crowd scenes with in Poser...

...naked crowd scenes.

I jest, I can dynamically cloth them... or whatever.

Otherwise, I should say I've got a fair bit of content (much of it older... e.g. MilHorse/Dog/Rhino... and including V4 / M4 Complete bundles) from Daz, which I'm perfectly happy with and which is of substantial use to me within Poser.

Anytime one buys any type of software there is always a risk.  I remember when Poser 5 came out it was no bug ridden that it was unuseable until the 3rd service release pack came out.  It took over a year for the bugs to be worked out, by the time the last service release pack was out Poser 6 had been released.

I also had a couple of versions of Roxio that were unuseable and crashed on my system--that wasn't cheap either.  If you think about it though the vendor only has a customer's word that they actually removed the software from the computer and isn't using it after a refund is given--if it was a download then there's nothing physical to return.

I remember I bought a full copy of XP Home Edition after Vista wouldn't run properly on my PC thinking I could downgrade--I broke the seal and tried and it turned out that you could only downgrade if you purchased Vista Professional or Ultimate--not the Home Edition.  I'd already broken the seal on the box--I could not return it to Best Buy--so I ended up having the sell it online in order to get any of my money back--since it was unregistered software I could do that.  A lot of times, though, it is difficult to sell even very expensive software and not have licensing issues.

Quote - It is really up to each individual custromer to decide if a voucher is acceptable, providing it is clear that this is the case before purchase, particularly as this is a change in the terms.  If it is indeed against the law that is another mattter.

Yep, that's an interesting point.  Here's a cut and paste from the UK Trading Standards website, regarding internet sales.  According to English law (Scottish law may be different) a customer is allowed to change their mind within 7 days and get a refund.  The fact DAZ are in the US isn't a factor here.

"Your rights when buying over the internet are the same as when you buy goods from the high street. However, you may also have additional rights under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000. In most cases, you are entitled to a seven working day cancellation period during which you can change your mind."

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I believe Scots Law dictates that if a customer is unhappy with goods they have bought, up to 7 years after the initial purchase, they're entitled to be sent a bottle of this stuff by the retailer:

http://www.thedalmore.com/shop/product.aspx?ShopItemID=15

That said my grasp of some of the finer points of Consumer Protection within Scots Law is a bit hazy...

EDIT: By the way, I am strangely on topic here for once, because the link is to something  old that has recently been released as new... get it? I just did ;-)

I'd definitely be happy with zip installers.  Amazing that they are doing that, after Kevin or whoever it was came over here saying it was impossible.

Will you have to use zips, I wonder, or will you have a choice?  Cornucopia3D gives you a choice of .exe or .zip, so it's obviously possible.

The PC changes don't sound very appealing.  My current subscription runs to next April.  Not sure if I should ask for a refund or just let it run out.  I've been a member for 10 years.  The voucher wasn't the big draw for me.  It was the discounts on DAZ originals.  But there's less and less for a non-DS user to buy now, and even the deals for DS users don't seem to be as good as they used to be.  Allowing vouchers to be used on PC items would be good, though. 

Well there are conflicting accounts here--frankly after what I read from other posts I rather doubt it.  What's wrong with the installers anyhow?  I think they are easier to deal with and then if you accidently install to a wrong directory you can uninstall it and reinstall correctly.  With zip files you have to hunt down all the folders and manually delete them if you don't want something somewhere.

Quote - I'd definitely be happy with zip installers.  Amazing that they are doing that, after Kevin or whoever it was came over here saying it was impossible. 

Quote -  

I don't think the official line was that it was impossible but that Daz would never move to zips.  It was in the brief official thread here at Rendo where they were explainig they had not abandoned their Poser customers.  I am sure one of the reaosns was about the licensing in that you have to accept them as part of the installer with the present Daz method.  There were other reasons given but it was clear that they would never do such a thing as move to zips.  I know my thought at the time was that the whole explanation could have been a lot briefer - 'over my dead body'.

If this keeps up they might also have a change of heart about not giving DAZ software away for free anymore.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - Well there are conflicting accounts here--frankly after what I read from other posts I rather doubt it.  What's wrong with the installers anyhow?  I think they are easier to deal with and then if you accidently install to a wrong directory you can uninstall it and reinstall correctly.  With zip files you have to hunt down all the folders and manually delete them if you don't want something somewhere.

 

One problem with the installers is that you do not know where or what they are installing. Many of the files installed are to do with Daz Studio and even links to the Daz web site.  That may be OK for some but I have no need for such files.  I accept that installers may be better for some and I am not pressing for them to be removed but a choice for zips would be an improvemnet in my book.   Using something like WinRAR I can look at the content of the zip folder and copy only what I want to the correct folder and therefore I have no need for an uninstaller.  I like to populate my runtimes with the files I am going to use and nothing more, not populate it with what a particular company or Vendor decides I should install, whoever they may be.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Let's not forget that the installers are sometimes rendered unusable by changes to the Operating System of whatever platform.

Not to mention they are slow, and require many clicks and often changes of directory.

Quote - What's wrong with the installers anyhow?  I think they are easier to deal with and then if you accidently install to a wrong directory you can uninstall it and reinstall correctly.  With zip files you have to hunt down all the folders and manually delete them if you don't want something somewhere.

I hate installers because they are so slow.  If you've bought a lot of products, the installers take forever.  Unzipping is much faster.  Worse, sometimes installers refuse to install where you want them.  For awhile, DAZ forced you to install things into the main runtime, because their morph injections didn't work properly if you installed it to an external runtime.  But there was a fix for that, and many of us used it, and continued to use external runtimes.  But DAZ's installers wouldn't allow you to install to external runtimes.  You had to install to the main runtime and move everything over, or "trick" the installer by putting a file called poser.exe in your external runtime.  

I re-installed V4 yesterday, and had to deal with it again.  It wouldn't install into my new V4-WM runtime, because there was no Poser.exe file in it.  I've also had serious problems installing other figures because the installer was looking for something it couldn't find.  I ended up having to do things like edit .ini files to get it to install.  That's easier?  My anklebone.

 

 

 

Why are they suddenly having to make all these changes and adjustments to their pricing and store benefits? I thought their software was award-winning and ground-breaking and everyone wanted it. 

Curious...

 

~Shane 

"I thought their software was award-winning"

the Genesis platform did win the innovation of the year in "3D world magazine"

"and ground-breaking"
Well within the niche market of poser&Daz figures a "new approach"..... perhaps

"and everyone wanted it."

Not sure I ever saw that claim in any of their ad copy
They did claim to be "in discussions"with pro app makers
( Autodesk etc.) about incorporating the genesis platform into their pipelines,
but I doubt those "discussions" achieved much on that front.

Cheers

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Quote - "Quote - "I'm not sure of what to name it, but Daz seems to have discovered and frequently utilized the opposite of good customer service. Seldom have I seen a company so set of a course of alienating it's customers."

I honestly don't think DAZ is in any Danger of "losing" any significant amount of customers with their store policies.

The for this is obvious.

Where else is there a viable alternative at this point in time??

Maybe some people will drop the monthly PC Club thing but they will still buy from there

To "leave" DAZ is to Leave the latest Vicky& Mike(genesis) and all of the really Good &new content.

Good news about the Zips though as the installers had become quite a problem on the Mac side with OSX 10.7  I had heard.

Cheers
 

Don't bet on not continuing to hemorrage customers. 

The alternatives are to continue with Gen4, use the SM figures, use independent figures - I use them all.  The purpose of Genesis is to get me to repurchase content I already own.  Sorry, but I played the "replace all of your content" game back in the 80's with my RPG's and my wargames (Squad Leader to ASL, StarFleet Battles to Advanced StarFleet Battles, Europa, etc).

Most of that "new" content is just a rehash of Gen 4 content. 

Vise & Bitrock installers have always been a pain on OSX.  Some were designed for OS9, and DAZ never updated those, some were designed for the PPC architecture and never updated.

Quote - Well there are conflicting accounts here--frankly after what I read from other posts I rather doubt it.  What's wrong with the installers anyhow?  I think they are easier to deal with and then if you accidently install to a wrong directory you can uninstall it and reinstall correctly.  With zip files you have to hunt down all the folders and manually delete them if you don't want something somewhere.

Aside from what everyone else already mentioned, there is all the trash the installers leave behind. Some may leave listing in you firewall, that after gross amounts will slow things down. They all leave traces all over your OS (windows anyway) that you have to go route out, or just reinstall you OS fresh. I have loads of content from DAZ left uninstalled until I need it or am about to reinstal the OS. Windows 7 seems to need this much less than XP did so the list is growing.

Zip, right click unzip, where, done. I have only unzipped to the wrong location a couple of times, out of what hundreds of times? It's alot easier to remove the content from the wrong directory (being able to see where it is, from the zip) then, search all over windows for crums that are not listed where they are.

I think it's pretty clear what's going on:

1.  The new "management" at DAZ used to use this store software (Magneto) and insisted they change over to it since the existing store software is such a jumble of code and errors; and

2.  Magento is a physical product software package, i.e., you're shipping physical (crafts?) products to a person.  Since DAZ is a digital store, they are trying to shoehorn a product into a shopping cart not designed to handle the product.

So, I conclude, the software can't deliver EXE files, so ZIP files it is.  Unless DAZ is willing to do a complete system re-write to deliver their beloved installer files, ZIPs it is.  Because........DAZ bought a LICENSE to use the shopping cart.  They have no authority to modify it, since they don't OWN the source code outright.  Despite Randall coming in here just a few months ago, saying unequivocably that ZIPs would NEVER be the delivery method, here they are.  Lots of other things will be impossible to do as well - think about what you can and can't do when you check out at a Michael's Craft Store.

on edit:

Magento may be open source, so the lack of customization is even more puzzling.

 

 

Quote - Lots of other things will be impossible to do as well - think about what you can and can't do when you check out at a Michael's Craft Store.

Not look odd when in line with a bunch of old ladies, feeling like find Waldo nighmare. Paying 30+ bucks for stuff I'll never use, wait that part is the same.

Quote - > Quote - Lots of other things will be impossible to do as well - think about what you can and can't do when you check out at a Michael's Craft Store.

Not look odd when in line with a bunch of old ladies, feeling like find Waldo nighmare. Paying 30+ bucks for stuff I'll never use, wait that part is the same.

ROFLMAO!

My daughter spends a lot of time at Michaels buying traditional art supplies.  So it's not ALL old ladies.  There are some pretty, young girls in the line of old ladies.

Quote - > Quote - lmckenzie wrote;

Quote - Whatever the other changes, I think the loss of the money back guarantee is the most significant. That probably set them apart to some degree and it was always IMO, a powerful point in their favor. I have no idea how much revenue they may have 'lost' over the years because of it. Maybe it was a money decision or maybe the new boss just didn't cotton to the idea.

 

Coldrake wrote

DAZ still has the 30 day money back guarantee. Where do you come up with this stuff?

  

Coldrake

 

 3anson wrote;

read the posts by Skondris in the 'new website' thread at daz commons, he clearly states that product returns will result in store credit, NOT a refund of money ( which is actually contrary to Utah business/consumer law)

 

I have read the posts by Skondris. Yes he does state that product returns will result in store credit, instead of vouchers like you did in the old store. Vouchers have always been the default. In the old store if you wanted your money returned to your card, you simply requested it when you put in your ticket. It will work the same way in the new store.

 

NOWHERE did he or anyone else say you can't get a refund of money.

 

Nothing has changed in the refund policy except that instead of a voucher you will get in-store credit.

 

 

Coldrake

Quote - > Quote - Daz will have customers as long as Stonemason posts his wares there. Now, if that changes...

The bit about the zips is great new. I wonder if they will go back and repackage all of the old content that way? I'd re-download all my stuff just to get the zips!

 

ummm stonemason has a store on his site already where he sells some of the products he offers at daz ;)

oops was thinking of the wrong vendor ><

 

gotta love brain farts :lol: