Anthanasius opened this issue on May 29, 2012 · 54 posts
Anthanasius posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 6:43 PM
Hard question, how to determine the power of a light in poser ?
Knowing the sun is 100% infinite light, how to determine a 25 watts light ?
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 7:11 PM
There's no such thing unless you also establish the camera sensitivity.
If your camera is "set" for indoor, then the sun and other outdoor lighting should be 500 to 800%. Example here:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2324713&user_id=374541&np&np
At that point, the indoor lighting is 100%. See? It's whatever is just the right amount of light for your "exposure" to be good - which is around 100%.
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Miss Nancy posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 7:18 PM
earth's sun produces 3.846×10^26 W total, but little of that is visible, and only a tiny fraction is in light cone subtended by earth, hence do what bill said, otherwise it will be under- or over-exposed. like using kodachrome at 1/100 second, f 1.4, in a room lit by a 25-W bulb. it would be too dark to see much.
Anthanasius posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 8:25 PM
lesbentley posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 8:26 PM
A watt is not a measure of light, a watt is measurement of power over time, defined as one joule per second. The watt has no direct correlation to luminosity. When you buy a 100 watt electric light, the wattage refers to the amount of electricity the light will use, not the amount of light it will produce.
Anthanasius posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 8:29 PM
In France bulb intensity are in watts in all markets, not logical but it's like that.
Anyway i have my answer ;)
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DreamlandModels posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 8:56 PM
A watt, relates to people who are hard of hearing...
WandW posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 9:12 PM
In the States, lights are marked with the power consumption in Watts and the light output in Lumens. A 25 Watt incandescent bulb puts out about 210 Lumens, whilst a 9 Watt compact flourescent lamp puts out 400 Lumens...
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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
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basicwiz posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 10:56 PM
Quote - A watt, relates to people who are hard of hearing...
DreamlandModels posted Tue, 29 May 2012 at 11:23 PM
sorry could not resist. :)
aRtBee posted Wed, 30 May 2012 at 2:56 AM
tom, do you mean...
A: I'd like two bulbs of 40 watts
B: how many?
A: 40
B: 40... of what?
A: yes please
anyway, 100% light on a 100% surface makes 100% in the render. None of them has any physical meaning.
- - - - -
Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.
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ockham posted Wed, 30 May 2012 at 7:07 AM
Lighting in a real room depends far more on the reflective surfaces than on the lumens of the bulb. A 60-watt incandescent ceiling light gives enough light for ordinary living if the walls and ceilings are white ... but if the walls and ceilings are dark wood, the 60-watt bulb is useless. Might as well have no lamp at all.
maxxxmodelz posted Sat, 02 June 2012 at 2:09 AM
In the same realm of thought, does Poser 9 or 2012 support the use of IES profiles on light sources? I know we have inverse square falloff for realistic decay, but the use of external IES profiles, especially on mesh lights, or material lights, helps tremendously to improve realism by duplicating not only decay by power, but also photometric web representation of different real-world light bulbs and fixtures. For interior lighting, this plays a big role in arch/viz accuracy, and overall interaction with materials in the scene. In other words, it "looks more real" than just a light cone with falloff and decay.
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lmckenzie posted Sat, 02 June 2012 at 3:14 AM
I was going to mention IES, which is the only place I know where the concept of something like a 60 watt bulb is relevant. I think that Carrara 8 supports IES lights. The only thing I have that does is Kerkythea and I've never messed with them. In ref to what Ockham said, I know that some manufacturers of things like textiles, paint or carpet provide bitmaps of their product textures. I don't know if it would possible/desirable to have materials based on actual realworld surfaces, though obviously they'd be unique to a particular render engine - and for arch/viz that would probably be VRay, SketchUp etc.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
maxxxmodelz posted Sat, 02 June 2012 at 4:00 AM
Quote - I was going to mention IES, which is the only place I know where the concept of something like a 60 watt bulb is relevant. I think that Carrara 8 supports IES lights. The only thing I have that does is Kerkythea and I've never messed with them. In ref to what Ockham said, I know that some manufacturers of things like textiles, paint or carpet provide bitmaps of their product textures. I don't know if it would possible/desirable to have materials based on actual realworld surfaces, though obviously they'd be unique to a particular render engine - and for arch/viz that would probably be VRay, SketchUp etc.
Well, not sure if it's possible, but certainly it's desireable to have the ability to reproduce realworld surfaces in Poser through native rendering. I know it is possible to some degree, because Firefly allows you to specify IOR value for relfective/refractive surfaces, and has fresnel falloff for material parameters, which are realworld attributes. So the same should apply for lighting. Anything useful in Arch/Viz is as much useful in organic/Poser rendering too, if the end goal is realism.
Not to get off track, but I've used Vray for many years, and I produce mostly human-oriented/organic-centric renders. At least that's my goal. Now I'm using Luxrender on a network, simply because i feel the unbiased lighting is pretty much dummy-proof, and although the rendertimes have gone up substantially over Vray, the cost is offset by a much quicker prep time with regards to scene preparation and, specifically, lighting. With Lux, for example, realistic reflective caustics just "happen", they aren't something you need to prepare the renderer for, or adjust parameters to achieve. Same thing with realistic light bounce throughout the scene. I can put a white panel in the scene, for example, and it will reflect light onto objects in the scene, as it should, exactly as I would expect it to in the real world, without making complex adjustments in the renderer for photon emission, or what have you. It just works.
So something like IES profiles could only enhance our ability to achieve believable results without complex, or time consuming, workarounds. What makes arch/viz renders look real, should, and do, make organic renders look real. Etc. etc.
Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender
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vilters posted Sat, 02 June 2012 at 5:23 AM
During the day in a "real" room, most of the light you see is indirect light.
What light do you see inside the room during a cloudy overcast?
Where is it? And where does it come from?
Where are the shadows, and where do they come from?
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"Do not drive
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raven posted Mon, 04 June 2012 at 3:36 AM
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2807539&page=2#message_3679985
BB managed to work his wizardry to get IES light profiles working in Poser in the linked thread.
bagginsbill posted Mon, 04 June 2012 at 7:06 AM
I lost that code by accident, and then didn't finish the work because I didn't feel like doing it over again. On the other hand, now that I have a store, maybe I should revisit this.
My question would be - do you really want IES, specifically, or just some cool designer lighting for Poser?
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cspear posted Mon, 04 June 2012 at 7:17 AM
Quote -
My question would be - do you really want IES, specifically, or just some cool designer lighting for Poser?
I've been getting really frustrated with the limitations of Poser's lights recently - IES would be great, something I'd spend money on!
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ironsoul posted Mon, 04 June 2012 at 7:56 AM
Does poser lighting work like this? I always got the feeling that it normalised around the strongest light source.
Latexluv posted Mon, 04 June 2012 at 7:42 PM
Quote - I lost that code by accident, and then didn't finish the work because I didn't feel like doing it over again. On the other hand, now that I have a store, maybe I should revisit this.
My question would be - do you really want IES, specifically, or just some cool designer lighting for Poser?
I missed the thread about this! It looks fantastic! I'd sure be interested in this BB. I downloaded the referenced zip file of IES and the viewer.
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FrankT posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 9:26 AM
IES Would be handy I guess - there are truckloads of IES files on the interwebz
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 9:47 AM
I feel like I may not have been clear. Do you really need IES lights or do you simply want 1000 or more interesting lighting distributions?
I can give you 1000 interesting lighting distributions as Poser presets, today, right now, this moment, without ever bothering with the IES data file format, and without you having to go download IES light profiles and run some Python script to convert them to Poser light shaders.
If I'm still not clear, what I'm saying is that having non-uniform light distribution has nothing whatsover to do with IES file formats. Do you need IES, or do you simply need interesting lighting?
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MagnusGreel posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 9:55 AM
speaking as someone who wants to use Poser with Sketchup to produce realistic architectual renders, yes. I do want IES implimentation. right now, I can make a real room, I can put in some figures, but I can't match real world lights with real world fittings. being able to do that would be very useful indeed.
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WandW posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 10:05 AM
Quote - I feel like I may not have been clear. Do you really need IES lights or do you simply want 1000 or more interesting lighting distributions?
I'd simply like more realistic lighting distributions, whether they be converted IES lights or BB's interpretations...
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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 10:17 AM
As an example of a non-IES light, but nevertheless one with an interesting pattern commonly found in real lights, have a look at this render.
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 10:19 AM
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 10:31 AM
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Anthanasius posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 10:48 AM
SamTherapy posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 11:33 AM
Crikey, mate! Is there no end to your talents? They look amazing.
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lmckenzie posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 12:11 PM
My (perhaps flawed) understanding is that with IES, you can have a room with a lamp and put a 'real' GE 100 Watt Soft White bulb in it or an array of Sylvania Grow Lites in your underground marijuana farm. Something else might yield equal or superior results. Obviously, if you're doing arch/viz then having the realworld reference is important since you can give clients a more realistic idea of what the space will look like with the specified lighting.
I suppose how important that is for Poser depends on how exacting someone is in terms of trying to recreate a real space. Some people who restore cars want exactly the carb that matches the build date of yada yada because they changed in the middle of the production run... Most folks probably aren't that picky about the lights I'd imagine as long as they look good. Perhaps for photographers or other people experienced with lighting having digital versions of the setups they're familiar with would be very desirable - assuming of course that they would actually get the expected results.
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MagnusGreel posted Tue, 05 June 2012 at 12:18 PM
Quote - MG - doesn't Sketchup already support IES lights?
As an example of a non-IES light, but nevertheless one with an interesting pattern commonly found in real lights, have a look at this render.
only with other renderers, (Indigo, Kerkythea etc). but the point is, SU can't handle poser figures, (to high poly), so you have to bring SU mesh into Poser and render there.
Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.
bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 7:12 AM
Now I have to rewrite the IES file parser/interpreter.
The render shows 3 copies of the same light, but the back wall is turned so the distance to the light is different for each. It shows how complex this lighting can appear.
The splotches on the ground are IDL sample artifacts - I was using really cheesy settings for quick results.
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vilters posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 7:18 AM
Haaaaa- that are lights....
I thought you where showing transonic boom waves inside a windtunnel... :-)
You could use that for a burning rocket motor also.
Or for transonic waves.
Or for bow waves.
Cool effects.
Nice job sir.
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"Do not drive
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monkeycloud posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 7:39 AM
This is very cool indeed :-)
maxxxmodelz posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 9:00 AM
Quote - Good news - I have successfully rebuilt the light shader that can process IES-style sample information, at least for the axially symmetric forms.
Now I have to rewrite the IES file parser/interpreter.
The render shows 3 copies of the same light, but the back wall is turned so the distance to the light is different for each. It shows how complex this lighting can appear.
The splotches on the ground are IDL sample artifacts - I was using really cheesy settings for quick results.
Yep. That would do the trick.
I just got P2012 the other day, and have been pretty impressed with the results I can get through Firefly these days. Will save me time not having to export every scene to 3dsmax or Luxrender, or whatever, just for rendering with realistic light.
Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender
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GPU.
cspear posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 9:52 AM
Quote - Do you need IES, or do you simply need interesting lighting?
BB, I would certainly like the IES capability, but if it makes more (commercial or logistical) sense to provide a load of 'interesting' lights, I'd be pretty happy with that.
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monkeycloud posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 10:04 AM
Quote - > Quote - Do you need IES, or do you simply need interesting lighting?
BB, I would certainly like the IES capability, but if it makes more (commercial or logistical) sense to provide a load of 'interesting' lights, I'd be pretty happy with that.
Likewise... certainly the actual IES route sounds worthwhile and useful. But also simply having an up to date collection of realistically interesting Poser lights would also be great, for me.
In terms of IES light files... are there good sources of IES file format lighting setups, for download... ideally free download... online?
cheers ;-)
bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 10:47 AM
On the left, my Poser version of an actual IES light. On the right, the same light in the IES viewer.
The IES viewer presents the light against an invisible (and ambiguous) wall and an unspecified camera focal length. As I cannot determine the exact configuration of wall, light, and camera, I am unable to exactly match the light pattern. Also, I think the IES viewer is not dealing with gamma, and is darker than it should be.
So - I do not yet have exact visual confirmation that I'm doing it right, but everything is directionally correct. Every light I try produces the right features.
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Anthanasius posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:02 PM
bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:27 PM
Getting deeper into this, I do not know how to interpret "physically accurate" in these circumstances.
Suppose a light profile has the following axial measurements from 0 to 60 degrees:
1 0 1 0 1 0
It is not at all clear how this light really looked - we just know that every ten degrees from center, the amplitude flipped from max to min.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:28 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:28 PM
Both of these interpretations obey the IES lighting profile 1 0 1 0 1 0
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:30 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:31 PM
Again - these all are "accurate" - the word has lost all meaning to me now.
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MagnusGreel posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 12:58 PM
why not use a Renderer like Kerkythea that supports IES to make comparision render shots to see how your work is progressing?
Airport security is a burden we must all shoulder. Do your part, and please grope yourself in advance.
vilters posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 1:00 PM
I fear, this is one of those things where everybody is mathematically correct but all results are different.
To "diffuse light through air", you need; Correct : you need air.
Air, and its pollution, moisture, pressure, density, do not exist in the digital world.
A digital world is a vacuum. = No air, no pollution.
THE thing missing in the digital artificial world is :"The air we all breath".
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P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game
Dev
"Do not drive
faster then your angel can fly"!
cspear posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 1:40 PM
Well, there's the atmosphere node: slow as hell to render (why? - it seems mathematically simple) but it'd be interesting to see some of these with atmosphere enabled.
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 2:27 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 2:33 PM
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bagginsbill posted Wed, 06 June 2012 at 3:29 PM
But - it illustrates some problems with Poser's "simple" view of the world. First, the atmosphere is not obeying inverse square law - the smoke should be much brighter near the light sources. Second, IDL does not contribute to atmosphere, so there are many areas where we see IDL (bounced) light but do not see any smoke.
Oh well.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
lmckenzie posted Thu, 07 June 2012 at 2:19 AM
Very interesting lights indeed, especially the last one. I guess my question is would there be any info on applications other than just trying them? IOW, would I end up putting something more suitable for an aircraft spotlight in my lamp if that makes any sense in this context. With IES, I can go to the GE website and grab a 'GE Multi-Vapor® Quartz Metal Halide BD17.' I wouldn't know one if it bit me but I can see it's a streetlight and know that it would probably be approprite for a parking lot scene etc. It may be moot since you already seem to have the IES module lined out and the other lights will be a bonus.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
WandW posted Thu, 07 June 2012 at 5:48 AM
Quote - why not use a Renderer like Kerkythea that supports IES to make comparision render shots to see how your work is progressing?
Pose2Lux mentions IES lights in the manual, but I've no time to play with it right now...
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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:
"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
surreality posted Fri, 08 June 2012 at 5:04 AM
Mostly commenting to bookmark this and keep a beady eye on it, since I think I'll be hopping all over it if it hits the store. :) (My actually commentary would be hard to transcribe, as it involves gibbering, and lots of excited sounds I don't think there's spellcheck-friendly onomatopoeia for yet.)
I could definitely see a use for a 'proper profiles' set, but also for a range of fun and interesting lights that are profile-independent. I suspect both would also be quite profitable -- but likely have slightly different markets, both of which have a strong enough presence, I suspect, to make the efforts worthwhile. I'd likely hop on both, personally. One for realistic effects, one for slightly simpler 'oooh, shiny'.
-D
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It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye texture.