just seen this and sorta know you'll be interested ;-)

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?258004-Patch-for-Sewing-Clothes-in-blender

 

ps not tried it yet

I am speechless with amazement. I would definitely have missed this! Thank you so much for pointing this out to me Hedd, just in time for the weekend!! 

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Oh!!! Plus,, the developer is an Aussie. How good is this, then, something new to play with. :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

OHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! faints

Laurie

reminds me of a demo I once tried, think it was a part of c4d but was a long time ago lol so might be wrong (often am)

dont look as "polished" as MD but will have a play with it tomorrow with luck ( I need more hours to play,boohoo ) even if it only does the grunt work it will save some time

 

arghhhhhhhhhhhhh how do you do a patch?? what I have read so far seems to be me making my copy of blender, dont think I could lol  so if you have found a blender with it in or maybe you built one ;-) gissa link pretty pretty please

Cool!!

 

Also, dont know if this is a python script..but found this vid on installing patches in
Blender

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF8D52BjBw8

 

About midway thru the video

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

thanx for link, but I'm afraid its not what I need lol, he is adapting a python script, funny enough the guy that did the vid is asking for a build on BA.

seems a .patch does have to be "built in" and I dont think thats in my comfort zone at the mo', just have to watch graphicall for a build with it in

still got tons to learn so a new toy can wait a while ;-)

Quote - funny enough the guy that did the vid is asking for a build on BA.

 

Yea, I saw that after I posted LOL!

Im hoping also someone posts a build with it already too because that is wayyyyy above my head :lol:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - thanx for link, but I'm afraid its not what I need lol, he is adapting a python script, funny enough the guy that did the vid is asking for a build on BA.

seems a .patch does have to be "built in" and I dont think thats in my comfort zone at the mo', just have to watch graphicall for a build with it in

still got tons to learn so a new toy can wait a while ;-)

As do I, Hedd. And then, there's the time factor. I finally have a few hours so I might follow the video to see how far I get, but even so... time is so scarce these days. Thanks for this, tho: more and more, Blender is positioning itself as incredibly full-featured!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Let us know how it goes Robyn if you get time to play with it please :)

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

full featured!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ay an the rest hun, I'm used to software that updates once a yr maybe, getting to the point where I'm scared to go in the forum, like a new toy every week (an I aint bust the old one yet lol). Will post a link when I come across one

As someone posted on that thread:

Here is the Win64 build

Now wonder if they will come out with a Win32? :(

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Thanks for that, jumpStartMe2 - I've been so busy with doing architectural stuff in Blender of late that it sort of slipped my mind a bit. It will, however, come in really handy why I take on hybrid clothing development again, all part of this project ... have sort-of finished the first bit: the front wall of a 221b Baker Street sort of room in Victorian/Edwardian England.

Would indeed love to find others as fascinated as I am with this period... mind you, I am taking a few shortcuts, since my modelling skills are still only just getting there.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Oooo that is nice Robyn! Wayy better than me at this point. :thumbupboth:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - Thanks for that, jumpStartMe2 - I've been so busy with doing architectural stuff in Blender of late that it sort of slipped my mind a bit. It will, however, come in really handy why I take on hybrid clothing development again, all part of this project ... have sort-of finished the first bit: the front wall of a 221b Baker Street sort of room in Victorian/Edwardian England.

Would indeed love to find others as fascinated as I am with this period... mind you, I am taking a few shortcuts, since my modelling skills are still only just getting there.

Just about my favorite period in history...lol. I have gobs of research material on the clothes, the jewelry, hairstyles, shoes, even home furnishings and appliances ;). Laurie

Wow, that really sounds cool, Laurie.

Once I get my head around the furniture tutorials that Hans Erickson offers on BlendSwap - along with a sample of his furniture of that period - I'm hoping to make a late Victorian, early Edwardian dress... you know the sort I mean: high neck, slightly bouffant shoulder, modest, elegant, ladylike. Wouldn't be very popular in the Rendo MP, judging by what's on offer there :lol: . They did have some lovely styles in those days, didn't they? Well, I think so, anyway. The item I have in mind will probably end up being sort of a hybrid cloth, with conforming bodice and dynamic skirt.

In any event, I'll be offering all I make as freebies. I don't intend to sell, ever again, and am not even too sure where I'd want to offer those freebies: perhaps to a Poser group with that time period as special interest.

I know - I'm being a bit weird, aren't I? It's a case of twice burnt, thrice shy? :blink:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

That looks very nice Robyn! I spotted the cloth sewing patch as well but thought I would wait a little to let it mature so to speak. I actually prefer modelling the garment in 3d to laying out a flat pattern and letting the computer sew it together. But it would be nice to be able to do both in the same application.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch

If someone could come up with a way to clone myself so that i could actually find time to learn and do all the things I want to, I would forever be in your debt. By which I mean: I'll probably end up modelling the clothing in the tried-and-true way - the way i know - even if using this pattern approach sounds so incredibly tempting. Like I'd mentioned: I have to force myself to watch tutorials in order to learn new methods of doing things, just because I'm such a sod about doing things the way I (think I) know. :blink:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

The clothing was beautiful if a bit stifling for the wearer...lol. One of these days I will tackle one of those dresses ;). And I'm not too sure they wouldn't sell. I mean, there's plenty of hookerwear to go around and a lot less of this type of clothing for those that might want it, yes? LOL. Laurie

I agree with Laurie...I'd love to see items like that start showing up in the MP {and those period dresses are soooo pretty}

I wanted to model one of those as well..gave it a half hearted attempt, but just can't find the time to sit down and give it true attention :( One of these days maybe LOL

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

See Robyn? LOL. I think ppl don't wanna make stuff like that cause they get the impression everyone want's the risque stuff. Which is mostly true, but how much of that stuff does one need before they want other stuff? LOL. For my own part, I've got quite enough of the impractical armour, bare midriffs, and otherwise smutty outfits :P

Laurie

Quote - For my own part, I've got quite enough of the impractical armour, bare midriffs, and otherwise smutty outfits

 

LOL Me too!

Poor girls run around half nekkid all the time...spring, summer, fall, and winter, and if they 'actually' went to war, they'd flat die {but boobies{a small portion}, arms, and legs would be well protected}....they need some CLOTHES :lol:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - The clothing was beautiful if a bit stifling for the wearer...lol. One of these days I will tackle one of those dresses ;). And I'm not too sure they wouldn't sell. I mean, there's plenty of hookerwear to go around and a lot less of this type of clothing for those that might want it, yes? LOL. Laurie

Went dancing with workmates a while ago... I'm of an age where I can just wear something reasonably comfortable and get away with it, but geez, the younger set!! they looked so darn uncomfortable, constantly pulling up their strapless dresses, trying not to let on their shoes were killing them... but their gait gave it away. I guess things haven't changed, much, for women: beauty means being uncomfortable, to some degree. :blink:

On the Victoriana note: perhaps someone knows of a Poser group who find this period as irresistible as we do? We could maybe get together and make stuff? Dunno - just a thought. I'm trying something with this front wall which is now a figure... I'm going to add a switch in Poser File Editor that will keep Poser from automatically try to smooth the mesh.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

This is really cool.

Quote - On the Victoriana note: perhaps someone knows of a Poser group who find this period as irresistible as we do?

I'd be up for that, but probably not use Blender to model the clothes and things, but Silo. Would that be alright?

You're a good community organizer - you should work something out...lol. That may be a topic for another thread however :).

Laurie

Oh, I was firstly looking to see if any such group existed. Perhaps not, then?

But yeah, if we do set up something like a Victoriana Poser group, it would merit its own thread. Or - better yet, only because we're using such a wide variety of modelling apps - some off-site location.

Btw, would anyone be remotely interested in this "Victorian flat" set when I get it closer to done? Just curious....

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Sure why not? I'd love to do some textures :D. I love the gaudy Victorian Era...lol.

As for a group...does Yahoo still do groups? I know back in the day I used to belong to a few Yahoo Groups...Big-i went to somewhere like that after the site went down.

Laurie

Oh, I looked at Yahoo and ugh...full of spam. There are other places tho, like Tangler where you can make it private and also free discussion forums :).

Laurie

Open to suggestions, Laurie. I'll go have a look at Tangler... and really good to hear you like doing textures: it's one of my weaker points. I'm getting a bit better at UV-mapping, but it's still not where it could be. Indeed, one could say that for most of my "skills"... :blink:

Just wanna have fun with it - and maybe illustrate a story I have in mind.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Or, I guess there's always google+ - not as much privacy, tho... :blink: - having a look at Tangler, looks pretty good, Laurie. :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Does that site have ability to file share? Might need something like that for collab work if you wanted to keep it all in one place, but guess you could use email or something if you needed to transfer a file...

I found this, and its totally free..you could toss up a PhPBB forum or something on it ?

http://www.24fast.info

If I was up on my HTML skillz I could make a back room here...never done one of those tho so not sure how it all works.

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - Does that site have ability to file share? Might need something like that for collab work if you wanted to keep it all in one place, but guess you could use email or something if you needed to transfer a file... I found this, and its totally free..you could toss up a PhPBB forum or something on it ?

http://www.24fast.info

If I was up on my HTML skillz I could make a back room here...never done one of those tho so not sure how it all works.

Good point, Jani. I generally use my own website to store stuff (via ftp) and give out links but that sort of solution won't suit everyone.

The thing is: my time is fairly limited these days because of work and everything, so I really don't want to invest a lot of time into making a website and all that. I'd rather make stuff. I realise that sounds really pretty lame, but it's sort-of come to this these days.

Just a weird question ... would google+ be a viable option at all, would you think?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Well, I shut down my google+ account and have no plans to reactivate it ;). I'm already dodgy about google's privacy polices...lol.

As for files, I have my own website as well and can place stuff there for people to download if need be.

I do of course have the time to manage a small group, but in the very near future I will be moving. After that, I have time :). I can set it up awhile tho if that's what ya want. There are all sort of free forums and free websites I can use if none of you have a real preference.

BTW, I'd like to do clothes and things for Mike and/or David as well. The men can't go about naked (even it it would be nice...lol). I can even make a list of where I got all my reference material so you guys can get it as well if you need it. Normally tho, I just look for things like ladies and gentlemens magazines of the period like the Delineator (for ladies) which are all now in the public domain. Internet Archives and Google Books is a good place to start. In Google books for instance, you can constrain your search to a specific time period such as 1880-1910 for ladies fashions or whatever you're looking for. Most of what I have came from those two sites ;). I have some super nice material from the time....some of them even having color plates which is nice to get an idea of the colors in vogue at the time and even some simple patterns if you wanna be a real stickler for authenticity...hehe. I'll try and make a list of the better ones.

Laurie

Ooo...check out this ladies magazine :)

Laurie

Here's another - a lot of gent's clothing in this one.... This one even has a few rudimentary patterns :).

Google Books is an excellent resource. They've got just about everything. And what they don't have, Internet Archive does.

I guess I lean more toward Edwardian than Victorian actually. Not that it matters - it's all good and stuff you don't see in the Poser content stores ;).

Laurie

Oooo nice find Laurie! See? We don't have anything like that in the MP, OR Freestuff and I bet it would go over well too.

Oh looky at the kids clothes too!

sigh I gotta get my rear in gear and MAKE some time to get back to my modeling..I miss it so

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - Ooo...check out this ladies magazine :)

Laurie

Thank you for those links... never would have thought to look there. Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of, Laurie. getting those skirts to sim is going to be a challenge in Poser's cloth room, I should think, but there are strategies to get it to work, I should think.

I just love the detail on the bonnets!!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

I would think make the underskirt, drape, make the skirt over that, drape. And so on and so on until they're all pre draped. I would definitely make a dress like one of those pre-draped.

Laurie

Pre-draped? You mean, make it a conforming item - using the cloth room - and doing skirt poses?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Nah, just drape it before you use it to to pose on a figure :)

All the layers are already down and ready...they'll just move with each other when you do a simulation. Well, they should ;).

Laurie

Okay, gotcha - looks like I still have a lot to get my head around ...

Off to work, again. Geez, it so gets in the way, work does! :blink: Hope to have a chance to read that first book - The London and Paris ladies' magazine of fashion - during tea breaks. There's a lovely story in there, too... A Woman's Revenge! :biggrin: Piques the interest, doesn't it?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Some of those books are very entertaining..lol.

Laurie

lol I think theres a reason you dont see many of that type of clothing

and so much "slutwear" , the former takes work on the part of the end user and the latter is click click click look how clever I am

like the pre drape idea never thought of that, one idea I had a while ago was making the "hoops" (like a crinoline(think I spilt dat rong) skirt) as a comformer then simming a dress over it, got side tracked and never tried but read a post recently about shoulder pads for a mans suit which is the same sort of idea

since we're in the blender forum can the "drape" be done in blenders cloth sim? for a layered skirt seems doing it in blender would save some too'ing an fro'ing

 

ps LaurieA I joined ur site some time ago, not been for a looooooooooong time ;-) am I still a memeber or is it flowers an choc's time?

pps not in to victoria or teddy but lurve steam punk!! I can take the engine out if u put the horse in ;-) rofl

Oh, my site is long gone ;). People don't wanna go to a small site unless they got a purpose..lol. And we were too small...

As for your crinoline idea, it would probably work. You should try it :).

Laurie

Quote - like the pre drape idea never thought of that, one idea I had a while ago was making the "hoops" (like a crinoline(think I spilt dat rong) skirt) as a comformer then simming a dress over it,

I tried that...but with lack of time and no sleep I couldn't figure out how to make the 'hoop' seperate from the body I was designing it for so I could take it into Marvelous to drape the cloth over....{that was back when I was playing around with Marvelous and it didn't cost my arms and legs, and other appendages}

I was attempting to make a ball gown if I remember right.

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

One of those things I'd still like to get, eventually: MD. Will wait patiently for a sale, though... too much on my plate atm.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

You will have a verry long wait for a sale then..I was a beta tester when it first came out, and ran extensive tests, helping them get the word out about it etc...however once people made it known they would pay anything for it, they jacked the prices up so high, and put so many restrictions on it till it became a bother to even try talking to them. They now have major $$ signs in their eyes...only way they will drop a sale or drop in price is if nobody wants it anymore I figure.

I wouldn't pay one red cent for a program I can only use to make freebies with, and they want $200.00..$700.00 if you want to sell anything you make...and its the same program..you get nothing 'extra' in the 700 version.

Bah..don't get me started LOL..Im hoping the gurus of Blender can get this latest addition up to par with MD..then we wont have to worry about it :)

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

I would definitely be harmonising with you, Jani, if we were to have a chat about this over coffee somewhere... I have a HUGE issue with how commercialised large portions of this whole art-form has become. Thank goodness for Blender and for the Blender "we can make it ourselves" mindset.

I do have to say that there are a lot of tools I use every day developed by Poser utility developers such as Ralf and Phil and Bagginsbill and Royston, tools that are very reasonably priced or even free. Which to me says not all are greedy money-grubbers... and their offerings are brilliant.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Totally agree :)

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

another one to tickle the brain cells

http://www.blendswap.com/blends/characters/hair-factory-v1-0/

 

have found hair easier to do in blender then in posers hair room and if this can convert for use in unity I'm sure it will import to poser

 

have fun

edd

It's like one goes back and forth between the two, one doing one thing better, the other...

I'm finding it easier to do cloth sims in Poser. But everything else is done in Blender. The two programmes are almost interchangable in my workflow...

Thanks for the Hair Factory link, Hedd... it does look promising.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

hope it gives you fun ;-) , anno your much deeper into poser then I ever was lol so anything I find that might bridge that gap I will pass on for you

dunno if you do movies but saw this an knew you had PS (no good to me blenders compositer is pushing gimp out the window lol)

http://www.photoshopgreenscreen.com/

is a free one and a trial for paid one

ps if you get Hedd ache just tell me to get lost for a while ;-)

 

All this you show me vividly illustrates just how MUCH there is out there, free and otherwise. And more coming every day! With Cycles and all the scripts out there and particles and caustics and now even nGons, Blender is really quickly entering the mainstream as a cutting-edge modelling/rendering 3D app.

And once you've been "Blenderised", you never look back... :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

dunno if you look at the blender art mag, but 34 an 35 have bits on rigging, looks good and its NOT a video

http://blenderart.org/issues/

 

have fun

That is most timely - thanks hedd! I'm on the ears now of my figure... think I'll have to redo them, though.

This really all becomes an exercise on edge-loops, this whole figure-modelling thing. You try to set your main loops right, try to avoid poles and tris and ngons, and try to have edge-loops move in such a way that Poser won't have dramas with how the mesh flows. Saying that: I'm not convinced yet I will be bringing this figure into Poser. The main reason I decided to make a figure in the first place was so that I had a figure - one I owned outright - that I could rig as I wanted with impunity, and add mesh as I saw fit if rigging issues developed because I knew that figure.

Whether the final workflow will actually support this approach is another matter. :blink:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

well I know how much you h8 all the video tuts so maybe seeing it wrote down will help ;-) , tried my own doll but my skills arn't that good yet so good luck but I am having fun with the dolls from makehuman (import works well on 64 bit comp but not at all on 32 bit, must be blender cos its the same MH!!, h8 this hobby somedays lol)

Getting tied up with my G'son at the mo' he wants to make a volcano and I have to do the fluid sims (his lappy cant do em) 2 hours baking to find this setting is way off lol just hope hes back at school before my cpu melts

Just been reading through your thread here and thought I would jump in.  Going back to a topic that was brought up at the top of this page regarding collaboration and how you can go about having a place to work a project through.  I would suggest you have a look at http://www.freeforums.org/

I've been selling models made in Blender here at Renderosity for a number of years now and found that having a reliable way of collaborating is essential.  At freeforums.org you can set up your own forum in a couple of minutes and build on it as you need too.  I set up a forum called "Mesh Manglers" at freeforums.org back in 2008 and have been collaborating with other artists since then.  At one time we had about fifteen members with around ten different projects on the go at once.  In our case this has worked out very well.

My Renderosity Store
Virtual Furnishing
My Portfolio

I'd be a shocking mess to collaborate with, to be honest, Keppel. I work full-time as a nurse, which at 60 is really quite exhausting - really feeling the need to scale that back a bit. And, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. So, like currently the exercise I'm doing on modelling the human body has got me really thinking about optimised topology, to the point that I'm re-doing stuff a fair bit.

All of which is to say: nothing would ever get done :biggrin:

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks