Martine opened this issue on Jun 16, 2012 · 25 posts
Martine posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 10:10 AM
Hi, I'm here as Martine. I'm an artist, also a writer and a publisher. I've made hundreds of book covers, but over the last five years, more and more authors want photo manipulation rather than Poser figures on their covers. It saddens me in a way because as one of my authors states, "My covers are at least unique." She only wants Poser/Daz figures on her covers. Stock photos are used over and over by many different publishers. With Daz 3d and Poser figures having become a lot more realistic, why is it that authors insist on run of the mill photos on their covers? What can we do to change their opinion? I'm sure there are a lot of Poser and Daz users out there who would love to design pictures for book covers and get paid for it, plus enjoy the exposure. Is it because Poser/Daz men aren't as realistic as the women? Is it because poses are more than often 'wooden'? Clothes often look 'plastic'? Stiff? I would love to see authors wanting original art on their covers again. As a publisher, no, not because the cost would be cheaper. I have no idea what a Poser/Daz artist would charge nowadays. Since the author in question only wants a woman on her covers, I make those quite fast and can do ten in a day. I charge twenty-five for those. More complicated, I'd charge more, but I'm not very good with men. I'm sure there are artists out there more accomplished than me who are. How can we change the writing community's mind about Poser/Daz figures? I'd love to hear feedback on this topic.
wheatpenny posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 10:33 AM Site Admin
A lot of Poser/Daz Studio art has the problems that you mentiones with the poses, the "plastic" look, etc, but I've also seen some incredibly realistic and stunning renders done with those programs.
One thing that there might be a market for, and that's fantasy and sci-fi cover art, since you can't use photographs for that (how many photos of dragons have you ever seen?).
As to what you can do to change publishers' opinions, the only thing I can think of is to assemble a portfolio of your best work and agressively promote it to publishers. Maybe hire an agent to do it for you.
Jeff
Renderosity Senior Moderator
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marineguy posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 11:19 AM
I've been doing book covers for a few authors who publish their own books. I'm familiar with the concerns of publishers, but also know that DAZ can produce verfy realistic images. We all also know there are many artist who venture out lacking the skills to produce commercial art, unfamiliar with textures, shadows, poses, etc. This isn't the artist problem, it's the publisher who decides after looking at some art that doesn't meet their criteria that they want photos.
There isn't anything better than 3D art for illustrating a book. Actual scenes can be created and brought to life in the right hands. We need to search out the self publishers to introduce our work. The more 3D art out there the more it becomes mainstream.
TheBryster posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 11:38 AM Forum Moderator
Marineguy, do you charge for making book covers or is it just a hobby for you?
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Martine posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 12:04 PM
Answer to several posts. No, it's not just the publishers, it is the authors requesting, NO POSER OR DAZ FIGURES. NO DIGITAL FIGURES.
Yes, for science fiction/fantasy/paranormal I've created dragons to use on covers. You're right, there are no photos of dragons. Authors don't have a problem with the mix of photo and digital fantasy as in dragons. It's the figures they have a problem with.
I own a publishing company and make covers for it. I am paid for my covers, yes, just like any other artist. Were I to do covers for a private self published author, yes, I would charge and the fee would depend on how many hours spent. Or for another publisher. I don't have time for outside projects though. (I have done a few freebies in the past to help out a friend who was stuck without a cover artist, but I wasn't as busy then.)
I agree that figures can be quite realistic, especially if an artist is well versed in using shadow and textures. If I had the time, I'd start producing more and put them on my website for authors to see so they could see that not all Poser/Daz created couples, men, women, are plastic. I'm still on a learning curve myself, though I've had Poser for years. Shadows is something I fight with, so I prefer to make the Poser covers I make for Viola Grace without shadows. The shadows created in Poser when rendering are too pronounced. I turn shadows off as a rule. Hers are fantasy and solo women, so simple and easy to do. I've made some nice ones, mediocre, and some I shake my head at... As long as the author is happy. That's all that matters.
Maybe I should start a website where artists can showcase possible covers for sale? Is that an idea? Something to ponder on. Thoughts, please? No, there wouldn't be a charge or anything. The artist would have his/her own pages and email address where to contact and buy a cover etc. It's just something I'm thinking about this morning, if I can gather enough interest. The way to sell, is also to keep prices low. For instance, I know of a stock photo site where their photos can be pretty much used as is. They charge between 20 and 30 dollars for a photo. If the covers are realistic enough, I bet a ton of publishers would be interested... And there are publishers out there churning out books by the dozens. I bet they wouldn't mind cheaper prices... Also, an artist needs to be able to put on a title and author name in an attractive font etc. Thoughts?
Martine posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 12:21 PM
I've got some covers posted in my gallery, Martine.
wheatpenny posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 12:26 PM Site Admin
Those are some beautiful covers.
Jeff
Renderosity Senior Moderator
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Martine posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 12:44 PM
Jeff, thanks for the compliment :-) I love doing art.
archdruid posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 1:23 PM
While I have no answer to why people have been after photo-manipulation, I can only point out that it seems to run in a cycle.. BUT, I think a part of the reason is that they are looking for photoreal but don't, yet, realise it. Not using a tool that is available seems awfully contrary to me.. like: if you are right-handed, why not remove your left hand?.... .My take on this is that, authors, like many, can be sheep too.. following the current "trend".
Also, I agree.. you have a "touch".. I quite like your gallery. Lou.
"..... and that was when things got interestiing."
Martine posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 2:02 PM
Thanks, Lou. Nice to get compliments once in a while. :-)
MistyLaraCarrara posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 9:29 PM
the medium should be transparent to the audience, imo. eyes have come a long way from the dead doll look. hair, -
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Martine posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 9:51 PM
I agree, but try telling authors that, or most publishers. No more Barbie and Ken as I remember them from my very early Poser days.
MistyLaraCarrara posted Sat, 16 June 2012 at 10:09 PM
check out this gallery render. talk about a cover girl
:lol: maing me feel inspired
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2308880
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Martine posted Sun, 17 June 2012 at 8:45 AM
Beautiful! Yes, inspires me, too! Talk about realistic!
MistyLaraCarrara posted Sun, 17 June 2012 at 9:39 AM
i asked about it in the poser forum - there is a lot of postwork in the portrait.
talking about book projects 
i got into poser cuz i luv luvv luuuvvv Final Fantasy art. move over Fabio for Daz figure, :lol: as an isider joke, considering the famous Micheal hip pose on a cover.
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MistyLaraCarrara posted Fri, 22 June 2012 at 10:03 PM
another author posting bookcovers http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2341939
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marineguy posted Sat, 23 June 2012 at 12:34 PM
Quote - Marineguy, do you charge for making book covers or is it just a hobby for you?
I get paid, as a contractor, per drawing. It started as a favor and then recommendation led to other requests. It's different somehow than when I do it for myself, it's actually work! I'm working onma CD cover and a book cover.
I'm not above recommending a better artist if it's something I cant do. There are thousands of better artists than me on Rendo. Accepting a few hundred versus a couiple of thousands is very different. One artist I am familiar with on Rendo is "doc" who I say is amazing, I cant do work like his .....yet. I can do a few illustrations and a cover, BUT illustrating a whole book or series with 50-60 action illustrations isn't in me .
Getting back to original statement that Poser/DAZ or any 3D isnt acceptable cant be the true objection but more an excuse for some other reason like maybe being too cheap.
archdruid posted Sat, 23 June 2012 at 5:32 PM
Thinking about it... is it possible that Poser and Daz figures have become TOO recogniseable? What I mean.. despite a lot of work in Photoshop.. or their favourite app, the figures seem to STILL be.. Micheal or Victoria... etc... I have to wonder if it may be time for the "standard" characters to either get a renovation or retired altogether, in favour of some that are less identifiable.
Marineguy... my hat is off to you... I have taken on the chore of TRYING to illustrate my book somewhere between Manga and Trade... while I have time for anything... (I am retired.. you can laugh now.. I don't mind), it is still a huge undertaking. Lou.
"..... and that was when things got interestiing."
marineguy posted Sat, 23 June 2012 at 6:11 PM
Quote - Thinking about it... is it possible that Poser and Daz figures have become TOO recogniseable? What I mean.. despite a lot of work in Photoshop.. or their favourite app, the figures seem to STILL be.. Micheal or Victoria... etc... I have to wonder if it may be time for the "standard" characters to either get a renovation or retired altogether, in favour of some that are less identifiable.
Marineguy... my hat is off to you... I have taken on the chore of TRYING to illustrate my book somewhere between Manga and Trade... while I have time for anything... (I am retired.. you can laugh now.. I don't mind), it is still a huge undertaking. Lou.
Thanks, I started out with DAZ just to illustrate MY book, the majority of my early pics in my gallery in rendo are MY characters for the book. I feel even a simple scene or figure standing brings a character to life for the readers "mind's eye". I illustrated "Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever" 30 year old series, my favcorite series just FOR ME because there was so little out there even after 30 plus years. Then I did my favorite childhood Superheros because I wanted to have their figures so I coujld create them in any pose I wanted. Unfortunately I got caught up in making stuff just to get comments from people, so I burned out and stopped having fun. Now I get to read the books (free) for the people I do art for and it's fun. You can see my prrogression to burn out. My Characters, Superheros, pretty women, burnout.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=534733
I know what you mean about Michael/Victoria. I'm retired too and the moiney I spent outfitting, searching, fitting, modifying Vic/Mike 4 and then its Vic 5 and Genisis. I really think Vic 5 and Genesis look LESS real than version 4 (it could be just me ) how about everyone else? What do all of you think of Vic/Mike 5 and Genesis?
wheatpenny posted Sat, 23 June 2012 at 6:29 PM Site Admin
I've never really given any thought to V5 or Genesis. I have Daz Stuio, but I never use the Genesis figure that comes with it. I'm content to stick with V4, and I still use V2, V3, M2, M3 and the figures that come with Poser.
Jeff
Renderosity Senior Moderator
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TheBryster posted Sun, 24 June 2012 at 8:45 AM Forum Moderator
The Thomas Covenant books were amazing! One of the best reads I ever had.
Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader
All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster
And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...
Martine posted Mon, 25 June 2012 at 2:01 AM
I've got Daz and have used it occasionally, but I find the file system in Daz3D just too confusing. Most of the time I can't find what I need. I did a few pictures using Genesis and V4 plugins. Turned out okay. I haven't acquired M5. If I could use him in Poser, I would. I still work mainly in Poser. Though Daz has certain features I like, until they find a better way for the file system, it'll be Poser.
To return to the coverart discussion, I've received a number of new requests for covers and all of them said, "No poser figures, please." So, unless you have one author who does well regardless of her Poser women on the covers, Poser is mostly out for coverart. Sadly. As a publisher, I'd be hunting here for artists wanting to get their name out there... but alas.
MistyLaraCarrara posted Tue, 24 July 2012 at 7:15 PM
the elusive perfect cover. it's wee-dik-yoo-wus already. whatever is rendering on my monitor at midnight, that's it, will be the cover
♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff
archdruid posted Tue, 24 July 2012 at 9:36 PM
Lol... this sounds SOOO familiar... I think everyone goes through this. Have some coffee or tea and watch a bit of anime... that's what I do.. and, lol.. it DOES help. Lou.
"..... and that was when things got interestiing."
TheBryster posted Wed, 25 July 2012 at 7:47 AM Forum Moderator
I actually e-mailed a big publisher in the UK about this. I got no reply by since I wrote in June.
Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader
All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster
And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...