I start with the concept that I use Poser Pro2012 and my renderings are all carried out with GC (2.2) and IDL I do NOT use infinite light with IDL

I have big problems with the lighting of the interior.

Just can not figure out how to get this type of rendering with POSER.

The room is closed, then just do not understand, as if there is a global source of light and in how to make it.

I begin to think that there is a way of manipulating the materials of objects to get these renderings.

But do such a thing in the room very large and full of objects would be an endless work

Suggestions ?

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

If you have Poser 9/2012 make the ceiling an emitter if you can't see the ceiling in the scene. You may get close. IF not, use emitters for all the lights. They give an overall more GI look than Poser's lights can. Laurie

Emitter for lights ?

This is new for me !!! 

What about ?

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - Emitter for lights ?

This is new for me !!! 

What about ?

You can make a material zone be an emitter, a simple prop like a one sided square, a low res ball, etc. In the materials, set the ambient of the object to something that will emit a decent amount of light. Maybe 3.00 or so and go up from there... You can set a regular Poser light an set the specular and diffuse colors to black so that you can see what you're doing but that it won't render. There was a thread recently about using emitters for lighting but I can't find it now. Do a search ;). Laurie

Ah ok, i know this. 

You are not speacking abot poser light (spot ecc.)

I'm right ?

 

I have made a lot of test with emitter, but i have never made something near the posted picture

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - Ah ok, i know this. 

You are not speacking abot poser light (spot ecc.)

I'm right ?

No, I'm talking about mesh lights ;). Using a mesh as a light. Not using Poser lights. ;). Laurie

Mesh light ?

 

Hum, now i lost myself.....

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

I'm making a render...one moment ;). Laurie

Many thanks

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Like this.

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And this. No lights here.

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Thanks, but are you sure there is no light in the 1' picture ?

 

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - Thanks, but are you sure there is no light in the 1' picture ?

 

I'm pretty sure this is what Laurie meant with using "mesh lights". Making an object (a box, a sphere, a plane ...) "glowing", thus emitting light. But not actually having the typical Poser light (spot, infinite ..) in the scene.

looking closely at the first picture I posted, I can identify what you mean with "mesh as light"

 The thing that impresses me is that the shadows are very very light,

 

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

while in this image shadows are sharp and defined

so i asked if there was a light in this picture.

May be there is a way to make shadows light or hard with "mesh light"

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

bagginsbill time ago I made a very similar question and thanks to your answers, I learned to use GC, Skin shader and IDL

illuminate an interior room as the picture I posted, is something that still can not get and I just can not understand what is the right way.

I think i need a deeper aid

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Yeah, here is an enclosed room (with a sloped back) and the Poser ball primitive. I have an ambient value of 2.0 on that. No other lights. Laurie

To make shadows hard with a mesh light: use a very small mesh and make it brighter (increase the ambient value) To make shadows more soft with a mesh light: use a larger mesh and make it less bright (decrease the ambient value) A mesh light can be anything: Vicky can be a mesh light so long as you make her ambient value more than zero and use IDL in your render settings. It's always wise to have some sort of container, like a room or an environment sphere so the light can bounce off of something. as for your comparison image there, I suspect there are more lights out of view of the camera. The two that are visible look fairly bright. Laurie

     Here are two threads which are at least peripherally relevant.

mesh lights in P8 and PPro 2010

mesh lights in P9 and PPro 2012

Poser 12, in feet.  

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Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

This has been informative.  Thanks for the info!  I myself also have trouble with lighting.  I'm considering some sort of class on it as a matter of fact because I have so much trouble.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

 

LaurieA wrote:

" I suspect there are more lights out of view of the camera. The two that are visible look fairly bright."

I suspect it too.

I have seen the entire scene, there are other mesh lights but i'm not able to see other lights.

The scene is really bright, it possible that there is 1 or more infinite light ?

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

I don't think there are any infinite lights in that image. I think there's just so much emitted light bouncing around the room that there's nearly no shadows ;) Laurie

     OK, so xpdev said the room was closed, and one would think that the walls/ceiling are set to cast shadows.  But in P9 and Poser Pro 2012 you could have unseen emitters, props with the visible in camera box un-ticked.  You wouldn't even see them in preview.  Look in the scene hierarchy for any props (or figures) with the "eye" icon greyed out.  Is there an enviro-sphere or skydome in the scene?

 

(xpdev)

*Quote - I begin to think that there is a way of manipulating the materials of objects to get these renderings.
But do such a thing in the room very large and full of objects would be an endless work. *

     Having a lot of light sources is effortless using mesh lights.  There are over two hundred in this scene:

.

Poser 12, in feet.  

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Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

Re the "lightness" of the shadows: Along with having a large emitter, keep in mind that more GI bounces = more travelling of global light = lighter shadows. Max out your GI bounces and you should start to see significant difference.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

Oh, and the earlier thread on all-emitter lighting with IDL is here.

______________

Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM

Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3

For the OP

This is part of a wall from the Central District Subway by FWDesign and ForbiddenWhispers, avilable at DAZ.  I used it in a render earlier this year.

The light fixture isn't a selectable element, so I created a box primitive, scaled it to fit over the light, and then turned the box into an emitter.  There are only two other lights in the scene - the sun, and a specular point light in front of the light fixture, to add highlights to the scene.

 

I did some testing, and here's the result:

• The room is closed and no windows
• No light
• I added an object primitive (square hig-res) and set the value to ambient_color 126:126:126 and ambient_value to 3

if the size of the square-hig res are almost like the room I get this result quite acceptable

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

If I reduce the size is what happens, changing the ambient_value to higher value has no better result.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

This is the setting for the rendering

what the hell I'm wrong ?

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

and this is the room

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

This image comes from the same author of the image I posted early.

the technique is the same and we can see perfectly the type of lighting.

suggestions?
 

PS I deleted some parts not knowing if I would have done something illegal leaving visible

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

xpdev, the thread the Believable3d posted above contains answers to all your questions.

In summary, if you reduce the size of your lightsource emitter object, you need to increase the ambient_value of it (or increase the number of raytrace bounces), AND increase the Indirect Light Quality in your render settings (and expect the render to take longer).  If you have hard edges in your scene, you'll need reasonably high Indirect Light Quality and Irradiance Cache settings (50 and upwards, depending on your rendersize).

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     (xpdev)

Quote - ...what the hell I'm wrong ?

     Not wrong, you've simply discovered the relationship among emitter size, number of ray trace bounces, irradiance caching, indirect light quality, and splotchiness. You also might notice the quirky Firefly IDL response in corners.

     A large emitter can use a quite mild ambient value, and the lighting tends to be even, without splotches. A small emitter needs very high ambient (Poser seems to clip values over 30 or 32) and tends to cause splotches because sampling rays often "miss" the small emitter. I try to use an emitter which is just large enough to avoid splotchiness, and then use several ray trace bounces and engage GC to help even out the light. 

     If you use an overly large emitter, you lose the appearance of the light coming from a particular source, one aspect of which is directionally-oriented shadows. Ideally, the emitter should fit the visible light source, so that the lighting matches the apparent sources. Also consider that most lights aren't searing blown-out white. Consider making the visible light a gentler ambient (0.5-1.0) and using a corresponding unseen emitter with sufficiently high ambient to cast enough light.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

thanks face_off

I read that post (consistent with my understanding of English) but they are concentrated on portraits

no one applies that technique (lightsource emitter object) to get lit environments like in the pictures I posted.

possibile that no one has any idea how to do ?

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Good points seachnasaigh.  xpdev, if you use the Scripts->Partners->Dimension3D->Render Firefly script, you can fine tune the number of "Samples" to address some of these issues too.

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Thanks to all, but I definitely missed.

it's probably too early for me to use this technique to get the results of the images that I posted early.

I will return later on lighting without lights hoping to figure it out.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

(xpdev)

*Quote -   no one applies that technique (lightsource emitter object) to get lit environments like in the pictures I posted.

possibile that no one has any idea how to do ?*

     Yes, Folks do use emitters to light scenes - especially enclosed interiors.

     The thread which believable3D posted [PP2012 IDL] is the prime IDL tut source in this forum.  Granted that the examples were photo studio setups, but an emitter-lit room is just the same technique writ large.

     The [P9/PP2012 mesh light thread] which I cited addresses the mechanics of making emitters and using them as the sole light source for a room.  While MrSparky and I were using a more sci-fi/fantasy render style, the technique is the same.  Photo-realistic rendering simply requires more irradiance caching, IDL quality, raytrace bounces, and samples - at the cost of longer render times, of course.

     The [P8/PP2010 IDL thread] explains how to make and use emitters within the restrictions of P8/PP2010's lesser capabilities.

Poser 12, in feet.  

OSes:  Win7Prox64, Win7Ultx64

Silo Pro 2.5.6 64bit, Vue Infinite 2014.7, Genetica 4.0 Studio, UV Mapper Pro, UV Layout Pro, PhotoImpact X3, GIF Animator 5

My render of the chests was 3 and a half hours.

I used 5000 samples. 5 THOUSAND. You can't even get that by setting the IDL Quality slider to 100. It will product only 2024 samples.

You have to use the D3D Render Firefly dialog. You have to take control of the settings. You have to run long renders.

It's still way faster than LuxRender, which would need 12+ hours to do a similar render.

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You need to crank IDL quality all the way up. And take Irradiance caching up to about 50 or 60. Laurie

Quote - My render of the chests was 3 and a half hours.

I used 5000 samples. 5 THOUSAND. You can't even get that by setting the IDL Quality slider to 100. It will product only 2024 samples.

You have to use the D3D Render Firefly dialog. You have to take control of the settings. You have to run long renders.

It's still way faster than LuxRender, which would need 12+ hours to do a similar render.

This...lol. Luxrender would take at least a day with some of the stuff I've rendered in Poser with just emitters in less than two hours. BTW BB, what are your render settings in D3Ds Render Firefly dialog? I tend not to use it, but I would if it would give me better results for emitters ;). Laurie

may many thanks to all again.

 

I'll study.....

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - BTW BB, what are your render settings in D3Ds Render Firefly dialog? I tend not to use it, but I would if it would give me better results for emitters ;). Laurie

I change them all the time - I don't use one particular setting. I don't use presets. Every time I render I think about how I want to handle it and what's going on in the scene - anywhere from a quick test render to a final render, I tweak.

Draft render of EnvSphere and my material test pawn?

50 samples, IDL IC=35, MSR=1, PS=3, Bounces=1

Super crazy overnight final might be:

5000 samples, IDL IC=90, MSR=.2, PS=12, Bounces=8

Usually I'm somewhere in between.

Working with SR3 beta, I sometimes turn off IC. You don't have that switch.

Note - poking around in the Python API, I found evidence of path tracing, KD Tree optimizations, and other unfinished goodies.

 

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Point lights are still valid as light source indoors. The use of emitters is great for area lights. Light bulbs are not area lights and are much more efficiently implemented using point lights with proper falloff. Don't get so hung up on a new technique that you think it's the only one to use. It isn't.

I am doing a demonstration. I have an L-shaped room. Three point lights (unseen) are lighting most of the room. One ceiling light above the camera also contributes.

The lower part was a previous render using draft settings and took about 2 minutes.

I am now doing the super crazy overnight final settings. It has been running over an hour, and you can see that the IDL precalc is not even half completed.

I am going out for work today (so odd - I have worked from home almost 90 days in a row). When I return I will post the result.

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Quote - Note - poking around in the Python API, I found evidence of path tracing, KD Tree optimizations, and other unfinished goodies.

 

Holy crap! No kiddin? Well, here's lookin forward to PoserPro 2014...lolol. I'll give the D3D Render thing a try. I'm not sure what it all means, but I'll figure it out ;). Thanks. Laurie

Point light indoors. What's wrong with it?

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This is largely lit from outside - EnvSphere and one infinite.

But I placed a few point lights indoors at 2% intensity to help Poser with the windows - I didn't want to crank the samples to 5000 just to find the light coming through the window, so I tossed some pointlights, one at each window. Problem solved.

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Nothing BB, it's great.

I'm only trying to understand how to obtain a diffuse indoor illumination like posted pictures.

It's similar to an office illumination made with "neon"

 

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Env Sphere for sky, one infinite for sun, 8 point lights for the lit ceiling lamps.

One thing people get wrong on indoor lighting - the sun through the windows contributes a lot. But only if you set it right.

A photo does not represent light level alone. It represents light level and exposure setting (amplification) of the recording equipment.

In Poser we have no "exposure" - only light level. So what should you do?

Amplify the light level to represent an increase in exposure.

That means, for example, that if you are indoors, the sun (infinite) light intensity should be at least 800%. I have used 1500% in some images.

This pool render was around 1000% sun light intensity.

 

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BB you are an incredibile source of everything.

Indoor lighing with sun make me no problem, the problem is indoor ligthing how i said over

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

xpdev, for good interior scene renders in poser with no sunlight, do what bill and the others mentioned.  use d3d's renderFF script to set IDL IC = 100, IDL samples to 4096 or higher, IDL intensity to <=1.0, and IDL bounces to 16 or 32.

use light-emitting objects that are as large as possible and which have bevelled/curved edges, make sure no other surfaces have diffuse >=1.0, turn off tone mapping in render settings, decrease bucket size to 32, increase pixel samples to 16, use shading rate <=0.2.  do not attempt to use poser render settings screen to set IDL quality/bounces.  use d3df's renderFF script instead.

I used no light emitting objects here, but the presence of point lights very close to walls and ceilings effectively created large "glowing" surfaces. So there is generally smooth lighting (secondary lighting) as well as the primary lighting.

Render time was 4 hours 24 minutes.

Pixel Samples (PS) = 6

Min Shading Rate (MSR) = .8

Bounces=4

Samples=5000

IC=80

Filter = Sinc 3

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Here is another approach. I made four walls and a floor. One wall is half height.

Surrounding all this is my EnvSphere with an outdoor photo mostly of white (overexposed) sky.

There is also an infinite at 15% intensity, and a lot of shadow blur.

The glow you see in the middle is my posing point light. It does not influence the render, only preview.

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This is the render. It took very little time - maybe 10 minutes.

 

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BB,

I love the ceiling lights in that pool scene.  Is that an effect caused by the point lights, the sun, or did you turn them into an emitter?

Hello BB, meanwhile thanks to all and especially to you for the constant explanations.

Your last picture is very similar to the effect that I want to play, the technique you used is similar to what I tried I also, of course I have not received your results, but knowingly exploit your advice.

the problem of this approach is that obviously if you've already built an environment in some cases it is difficult to play, then if you frame the roof, this does not exist.

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

This is an example where it would not be possible to eliminate the roof and use your EnvSphere for lighting.

This rendering I got it with only two lights.
EnvSphere for external light (but I did not apply any image) and a small light to support the interior of the room.

Obviously I had to work a lot on materials, thanks to your advice and your BBGlossy

Rendered with FF

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

FYI: Here is an example of what i could get with 4 hours of rendering with luxrender (actually i rendered 1 hour wallclock time, but i used a 4 core processor). Practically no textures except for the people. Blackadder presumably used the Octane renderer, which will likely result in a sharper image for the same time (at least with a fast graphics card, which i do not have).

yes, you're right, I begin to realize that the rendering times are very long to get a fair result

Poser Pro 2014 SR 1 on Windows 7 64 bit
I use IDL, Gamma Correction and EZSkin for all final renders.

Quote - Point light indoors. What's wrong with it?

 

In a real life situation I would expect to see a lot of diffuse light from the lampshade lighting up the room. The lampshade looks translucent but not really allowing light to pass through onto the wall I think.

Quote - > Quote - Note - poking around in the Python API, I found evidence of path tracing, KD Tree optimizations, and other unfinished goodies.

 

Holy crap! No kiddin? Well, here's lookin forward to PoserPro 2014...lolol. I'll give the D3D Render thing a try. I'm not sure what it all means, but I'll figure it out ;). Thanks. Laurie

 

*p-p-p-*path tracing?  swoon

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I have this fully enclosed room here. Actually it's the primitive box, just scaled up quite a bit. I placed four lamps on the ceiling, each has a point light positioned directly under it.The four point lights are set to 75% intensity each and are having inverse square fall off.

The result is this (attached image, reduced img.size by 50%, to post it here)

While setting the point lights to "constant" attenuation, the room is lit very even ("constant", so to say ^^ ), but with setting them to inv.sqr fall off, there are appearing these brighter splotches.

The render has IDL enabled (the settings are 1500 samples, 8 bounces and IC set to 50)

Is there a way to reduce, or even eliminate the bright areas, with an inv.sqr light setting?

The point lights make the prop lamps very bright when inverse square is on. (As it should because they are really close.) Occasionally IDL will "see" one of those with its sampling ray and add the bounced light from the prop making a brighter spot. Mostly it does not.

If the prop lights are a separate prop, untick "Light Emitter" on them and they will not contribute to the lighting. And we don't want them to here anyway - that is why you put the point lights in.

If they are not a separate prop, you can place another prop over the hyper-lit surface, make it black (no reflection of diffuse light), make it invisible to camera, but leave it as an emitter. It will block the light from the point lights hitting the prop lamps.

 

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Aaah ... and suddenly it all makes so much sense!

Thanks for the explanation.

Same settings as above, with just unchecking the light emitter option in the lamps properties solved it all. :D