It's been a while since I've done much with Poser, but DAZ's Platinum Club preview gave me a chance to pick up models at the $1.99 price without paying the membership fee (the promotion is over). I was very surprised at the general lack of discussion in the DAZ forum thread on the subject. The last time I looked at a Platinum Club thread at DAZ was a couple years ago and there were hundreds of posts on the thread in a couple days whereas there are only a couple dozen posts in the new thread after more than a week. Most of the comments in the new Platinum thread thanked them for the preview that let them buy PC items, but that they wouldn't be joining because of the focus on Genesis products that aren't Poser compatible. Looking at other threads in the Commons forum showed a similar comparative sparcity of replies in threads to what I remembered years ago. The forum is far from dead, but the activity level has dropped significantly.

I can't help but wonder if DAZ's decision to tie their latest generation figures to DAZ Studio has hurt them financially. I'm curious whether merchants, that have both Renderosity and DAZ stores, have seen a greater drop in sales at DAZ than here. A big drop in forum traffic is probably directly related to a drop in customer purchases. Of course, the debacle of pushing an incomplete website redesign on the public when neither the store or forums were functional will remain one of the dumbest ideas any commercial company has made. That certainly didn't help retain customers or forum participants.

Personally, I think Genesis is a good idea. Having a single mesh, to accommodate multiple characters such that clothing and accessories will fit all, is a great concept and beats buying the same clothing over and over for various figures or using a third party program to provide a mesh approximation to fit other figures. I haven't used DAZ Studio, so cannot compare it to Poser. I simply don't use DS because I don't feel like learning a new interface. I don't blame DAZ for wanting to tie their content to software that they control. They were in a shaky business position of creating content for a software program that has, at times, had a questionable future and been sold off a number of times. If Poser were abandoned, DAZ's future would have been equally terminal if they didn't have their own posing software. By having DS, DAZ also can control the future of their figure development instead of having to rely on another company to decide if and when such advancements would be made.

The circumstantial evidence I see tends to indicate that DAZ jumped too soon with abandoning Poser compatibility with their new generation figures. They can easily release a Poser version of their 5th generation figures alongside Genesis. I won't be very surprised to see that happen. Thus far, they seem intent on forcing Poser users to switch software to get the new figures. It doesn't seem to be working as well as they expected.

Hopefully, this won't devolve into a Poser vs. DS fight. I dont have any emotional commitment to software other than the occasional frustration with the software I use. Poser's lack of RSR thumbnail support already demonstrates a lack of commitment to longtime Poser users, so I don't have a longterm commitment to the future of Poser.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

I'm kind of interested in people's opinion on this myself because so far I haven't made any clothing products for the Genesis characters and I was wondering if I'm missing out on a large sales market.

I don't use Daz Studio or any Genesis models myself so I don't know how evaluate anything concerning them.

Quote - Poser's lack of RSR thumbnail support already demonstrates a lack of commitment to longtime Poser users, so I don't have a longterm commitment to the future of Poser.

 

I got to say...what? RSRs were replaced by PNG thumbnails in Poser 5 nine years ago. It was another six years before support of RSRs was finally dropped in 2009 with the release of Poser 8. And even with that there are free tools available to do the conversion if you've somehow not done so over the preceding half-decade.

Heck, you didn't even have to do anything for those six years: all you had to do was open the library and the PNGs were automatically created.

There's "lack of commitment to longtime poser users" and then there's "ridiculously unreasonable demands". This sort of complaint leans well into the latter category.

 

 

I'm a relatively new vendor, so I only have a small data sample to dangerously extrapolate from, but here goes. My opinion is worth, by the way, just about what you are paying for it. grin

I think slow chatter has got a lot more to do with it being summer. My sales are down 90% from what was a steady growth before July. People are doing useful things instead of Poser.

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Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

 WHAT? Pose is not "doing useful things?"
 :-)

Quote - I'm a relatively new vendor, so I only have a small data sample to dangerously extrapolate from, but here goes. My opinion is worth, by the way, just about what you are paying for it. grin

I think slow chatter has got a lot more to do with it being summer. My sales are down 90% from what was a steady growth before July. People are doing useful things instead of Poser.

The traffic at Daz probably has more to do wth it being summer, as BB stated, but also they have had many issues after thier reboot, and they are working to overcome those issue.

Also, they probably alienated some die hard very vocal poser users we see in the forums all the time.

its been said that the forums account for a very tiny fraction of all the customers at any of the poser content websites, so I wouldn't put much stock into basing much on forum traffic.

Dollar$ however, are a different matter.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote:

I think slow chatter has got a lot more to do with it being summer. My sales are down 90% from what was a steady growth before July. People are doing useful things instead of Poser.

 

Bill,

I agree but even still, are you making stuff for V4, M4 or for Genesis?

 

I'm just wondering how many vendors are supporting the Genesis characters and if they are getting enough sales from it to make it worthwhile.

Depends on who you talk to I guess. Some vendors have said they've done very good with Genesis. Some said they haven't and their sales have slipped. Doesn't do much good to speculate since it's an all-round bad time of year for sales generally for more than just Poser stuff ;).

Laurie

Besides being summer, I think a big part of the reason you're not seeing many replies in the threads is that new posts don't bring the thread to the top, they quickly get pushed off the front page where people don't see them anymore. This is something DAZ really, really needs to get fixed.

Coldrake

Don't know if Genesis is killing DAZ, but all I know traditionally as BB stated summer is a bad time for everyone selling content. For me it's not as bad as 90% but sales are mostly down about 50% for me and pick up after the summer again. I haven't used Poser or worked on any content for the last month now. The weather is nice, kids are off school, lot's of other things to do then sit behind a computer all the time. I'm sure many are like me, take a break for a while and come back when the weather turns and start rendering and creating again.

 

I'm also sure that abandoning Poser is hurting DAZ. I haven't bought anything at DAZ since the release of genesis, hardly anything released that interests me. It's not some kind of me punishing DAZ, it's just a result of the move DAZ made. Most items released are for genesis, so Poser users do not buy. I'm sure DAZ did some survey and research before taking the plunge, but it is a risk, you never know how a market will react. I don't blame DAZ for making the move and I do hope others will fill the gap. That's something that is happing a bit now and I'm sure that is hurting DAZ as well, more figures, so more competition, since most of those figures do work in DS.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Genesis users may be only half the market (well, we could dispute the figures, but it's some sizable fraction of the market, in any case), but it's a wide open market.  Judging from what's on offer here and at RDNA, there aren't as many merchants making Genesis products, so the competition is likely not as stiff.  If one were thinking of getting into the market of making Genesis products, now is probably a very good time to do so. So I think Daz is probably doing quite alright on that front. (Or at least its vendors, as individuals, are doing all right). Its website issues are another matter entirely, and they may well have devastated their sales, at least temporarily.

If the technology split remains, I'd expect the two markets to stabilize eventually, as more merchants move over to Genesis, and open up the remaining Poser market to those who are either more dedicated to moving forward with Poser specific advancements or too satisfied with the current state of affairs to give Genesis a go.

Some vendors may put in a lot of extra effort to try to bridge the gap, and I definitely commend them.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Myself, I don't understand why there is M4/V4, M5/V5, and Genesis.  I understand the need to move the technology forward but those of us who are hobbyists and on rather limited expenses for non-necessary spending just cannot afford to try to keep up.  Even purchasing some of the items to make older goodies attempt to work with newer goodies is close to cost prohibitive at times.

I love that this is such a vibrant community and we can "rationally" discuss almost anything in our field.  Perhaps the problem over at DAZ is the latest rebranding of their web set.  I've all but given up on their forums.  They should take a serious lesson from the forums here.

Just my own opinions, and I am not a coder or content creator, just an end user...and what do we know, right?

forums seem to be slow all around

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I too have noticed a big reduction in Forum traffic there.  I think the issues are website related.  Their new Forum puts the threads in order of origin, not threads with new replies at the top, so it is difficult to follow updates to threads.   I don't know if this is a bug or a feature, but it makes it quite unusable for me.  I used to check several times a day; now it's a couple of times a week...

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Everybody is busy watching the OLYMPICS! ^ ^

Quote - Everybody is busy watching the OLYMPICS! ^ ^

I'm not. I watched Phelps come second in the 200m fly, and I see the highlights on sportsnet. That's it. The unbelievably sappy coverage makes the olympics basically unwatchable for me, unless they're broadcast in another language. I suppose I could watch them in French.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - forums seem to be slow all around

I used to go to the Daz forums daily.  I'd check the Carrara discussions and WIPs, Studio and Hex discussion, and the general software discussion.  I followed on average about a half dozen threads that were interesting or useful.

When they changed the forums, those threads were lost.  Avatars disappeared and the user post count reset to zero.  I went back a few weeks later and there was little improvement.  I'm sure there were valid reasons for the migration, but wiping out so much information when their products have so many known issues (not to mention poor documentation) killed a bit of my enthusiasm for the whole DAZ experience.  Between the revised TOS and the removal of all prior discussion on the forum, I almost wanted to believe they were trying to remove signs of the discontent growing within their user-base.

I like several Daz products, but I don't like the way they handle them.  I'm tired of being a beta tester for products that never see a stable release.

That's why I haven't been going there as often as I used to.  I doubt I am the only one who feels that way.

I am not too sure it is Genesis that is killing Daz, only time will tell but the PC is another matter, stopped my membership months before Genesis arrived purely because I was not getting any benefit from it.  Since then the number of products that appeal to me has reduced still further.  When I closed my PC account I purchase Prime Membership here and by Rendo's figures I have purchased over $300 worth products in just short of a year, all of that spend would have been done at Daz3D in the past, and that is only on Prime products. 

I do not dislike Genesis but I use Poser and I do not want to move to Daz studio.  I also want to spend my time trying to create art not jumping through hoops to try and make a non-Poser product work in Poser.  If I was in the market for a new figure, and I might be soon, my money would go on My Michelle not Genesis.

I may not be a typical hobbiest but I know I was certainly not the only one to stop my PC memebership in the last year.  Changes to the PC membership itself did not appear to help neither did the problems with the Daz web site.

I suppose the logical answer to your question is only a few select people know if Genesis is killing Daz and they are not going to post on any forum.  Logically it would seem that Genesis is hurting Daz as since it's launch there have been a drive for new figures and, assuming the size of the pie remains the same, the more competition the smaller the slice for everbody.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Yep, quite a few people stopped shopping at Daz because there's not much new Poser stuff.

After Genesis arrived, how many people stopped shopping here because there's not much new Genesis stuff?

Only the sales departments know whether these two trends balance in one market's favor or not, and it may well change over time, in any case.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I think the slowdown in the Daz forums is probably mostly due to their website disaster. They really need to try doing things one at a time and get one thing right before they move onto the next. It looks like even their sale promotions are colliding with messy results at the moment.

All their current problems can't be doing much too good for their sales.

Quote - I am not too sure it is Genesis that is killing Daz, only time will tell but the PC is another matter, stopped my membership months before Genesis arrived purely because I was not getting any benefit from it.  

.....

I know I was certainly not the only one to stop my PC memebership in the last year.  Changes to the PC membership itself did not appear to help neither did the problems with the Daz web site.

.....

 

Same here. I ran out of interest in the PC and I think they stopped the renewal voucher or something so I didn't bother to renew. Then DS4 and PP2012 promo stuff started to appear and I thought I'd take a look at both and decide which to go for. Never used Poser before and only used DS2 mainly to get figures into Vue (I'd bought DS3 and used it twice). I looked at DS4/Genesis and found nothing interesting. I looked at PP2012 and was totally gobsmacked! Easy decision :)

So far Daz haven't done anything to tempt me to buy anything else from them. A few of the vendors I used to buy from at Daz have moved and the prices there seem to be higher than elsewhere so I don't see any reason to buy there. Sending me emails advertising Genesis stuff and sales that apparently don't work terribly well isn't working on me as a marketing ploy. The emails I've been getting since the launch of the new site seem to have an air of desperation about them. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just the impression I get.

 

Genesis is probably what is saving daz after the move to the new store/website.

Genesis is a powerful new figure that can do so much more than anything else with the ds4 tech backing it up.

I still make some m4/v4 stuff, but the fact that I can make such a wider range of characters with genesis, makes it hard to develop for the older tech models.

I always hear people talking about weight mapping, weight mapping and weight mapping as the key factor in the genesis model and so they try to weight map figures for poser. But its not the weight mapping that is the main factor. The main thing (for me) about genesis is that you can rerig the figure to almost any new shape and have it work decently. THAT is power.

When poser picks up the tech for running genesis, it will be a happy day for me.

 

So while the store and website might be hurting daz now...i dont see genesis being the problem (cant wait for the site to be 100%...heck even 90% would be good LOL)

no disrespect, Rawn. but you have a niche market for creatures made from a base mesh, so Genesis will work for you, as you have a good following of customers.

your sales will not correspond with that of a mainstream vendor. it is a known fact, that outside of DAZ3D's own store, VERY FEW Genesis products will be found.

that says to me that few mainstream vendors have taken on creating for Genesis.

there is still a lot of kewl critters in their store i want to buy, like the Sharks. the bird sets.

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Genesis is not killing daz.  Genesis is kinda cool if you think about it.

What is killing daz is:

1.  It's not that they are using gene it's that they are going gene only.  As rendo and RDNA are showing, there's still a large market for V4 and some of the vendors are now doing some of the fixes that daz should have years ago.

2.  There's a lot of stuff in the store but not all of it interests me.

3.  I don't like DSs interface, even if they don't want something poserlike to attract the poser users, they could still improve it.

4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.  Some of the other things in the store aren't that cheap, they look like they are getting more expensive (especially the PA stuff, but I hear that's DAZ's doing), and frankly I've got too many other things that are competing for my fun budget for me to want to pay more.

 

So no.  Gene is fine, it's the boneheaded business decisions that're killing DAZ.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

since the release of genesis i feel nothing daz puts out for sale is for me (a poser user), so much so that im thinking of removing my platinum membership,as it feels like a waste of my time and money, i dont know if anyone else feels left out like i do by daz?

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

Quote - since the release of genesis i feel nothing daz puts out for sale is for me (a poser user), so much so that im thinking of removing my platinum membership,as it feels like a waste of my time and money, i dont know if anyone else feels left out like i do by daz?

 

I don't think 'left out' is the right term in that it really is their choice to develop what they want and what they think will sell.  I do however think that Daz is no longer relevant for me as a Poser user as there is little there of interest for me and the prices do seem to have jumped quite a lot.  True, the work put into the product might justify the price but in these troubled times raising prices unilaterally does not seem a good plan.

I used to buy from Daz at least on a weekly basis now I very rarely browse the store and my purchase so far for 2012 is three products and in the last six months - nil.  These days I browse Rendo daily and must average two or three purchases a week.  My spending, or not spending in this case, will have no impact on Daz but how many more there are like me?  Of course we will never know.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote -
4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.

Yes, but where else can you get this...  :lol:

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"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
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I agree that DAZ Studio likely started as an insurance policy against Poser's [then] uncertain future. Once they had it though, it was only natural that they would explore what they could do by more tightly integrating their content with the software. Looking at the Unimesh and Figure Mixer technologies, Genesis seems like a natural evolution. I assume that the plan always was that Poser would incorporate Genesis support. I don't know how far they were in development when SM (declined declined. If they were faced with the choice of abandoning their work on Genesis/putting it on hold vs. developing a more Poser friendly version (and possibly having to stick with V4 while doing so), I'm pretty sure they didn't take the decision lightly. Basically, I don't think they ever intended to draw a line in the sand and frog march Poser users over it. I think they were "stuck" with what they feel is a great piece of technology and an assumed "partnership" that didn't pan out. If the choice is between pulling the trigger on Genesis and soldiering on with old content (when new content is your main revenue) and risking self-inflicted wounds, I can see doing the former. It was risky, but if you really believe in something enough, you take the chance.

Everyone wants to be Apple, 'control their own destiny,' have a complete ecosystem, etc. - witness Microsoft's decision to create their own tablet. I'm not sure how well it applies in this market. DAZ and Poser had a nice complimentary thing going, but I wouldn't fault either one for their decisions. You do what you think is best for your business. With the small size of the market though and only two major players, it does mean that those decisions have an large effect on users. Perhaps that is reflected in the rather 'energetic' response to the whole thing. I think it's far too early to speculate on the outcome. I think that Genesis or something very like it is a logical move away from a plethora of individual figures, conversion utilities etc. I don't see the near term demise of discrete figures but I do think that a somewhat more 'integrated' system perhaps has the potential to broaden the market beyond those of us who are undaunted by (or enjoy) buying this here, that there, what works with what, convert this to that etc. Genesis may turn out to be the equivalent of the Windows tablets of years ago, too soon or not quite right. Poser or someone else entirely my eclipse everythig we now take for granted. I still believe that consumer 3D has enormous unrealized potential, but I wouldn't be surprised if, in the end, developments rooted in games or even erotica (two proven drivers) have more to do with large scale gains than Poser type applications. In the meantime, we should hope that Genesis doesn't kill DAZ, because I'm not sure that having only one major player in a small market is necessarily better than having two competing ones - even if their paths are - for the moment at least - diverging.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - 4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.  Some of the other things in the store aren't that cheap, they look like they are getting more expensive (especially the PA stuff, but I hear that's DAZ's doing), and frankly I've got too many other things that are competing for my fun budget for me to want to pay more.

It's not overpriced. It's free for PC members. It's priced at that ridiculous price to discourage people from buying a product that's meant to be exclusive to the PC, that's all.  I'm going to guess that they lack the coding to make products that can't be bought by everyone, and that's always been the case, even at the old store.

Petipet's vehicles are not junk. If they are, then 95% of everything here is junk as well.

ETA:  lmckenzie, nice to hear a voice of considered reason. :)

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I'm not particularly happy with the current state of affairs, but I don't see the point of recapitulating all the old bashing. RO and RDNA have benefitted, at least by getting my dollars. So someone should be happy.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

It could be that Daz had no choice but go it alone with Genesis and I do understand that some Poser users might feel a little bit sore but I don't think we should feel we were singled out.  After all, the changes to the PC membership affected both Poser and Daz users.  The problems with the web site punished all people wanting to buy and by then it may have been more Daz customers wanting to buy than Poser users.  Selling software at a high price stating that the days of free software were over and then months later giving it away impacted Daz and Poser users. 

No I don't feel hard done by, I want Daz to succeed it's just that they will have to do it without any of my money until they can somehow tempt me back... which gets more unlikely by the week as I got so feed up with emails that no longer interest me that anything from Daz goes straight to my junk mail folder.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - 4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.

??
the viking-motorbike was o.oo this morning.  guess i nabbed it just in time.

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Quote - > Quote - 4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.

??
the viking-motorbike was o.oo this morning.  guess i nabbed it just in time.

You need to be logged in to see the PC price. It's still free.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Winterclaw wrote;

Quote - 3.  I don't like DSs interface, even if they don't want something poserlike to attract the poser users, they could still improve it.

Actually you can improve it yourself, very easily.

 

 

Quote - 4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.

Petipet's models are not junk, they make some excellent models.

 

 

Coldrake

I don't feel "left out" by the Genesis stuff. I'm just not interested in it. So I don't tend to look into the Daz store because I assume most of it will be Genesis. It definitely won't be anything for GNDA2 and buildings/props etc. I rarely buy so I just have no need for their store now that I've got all the A3 and M3 stuff I want from there.

And I agree - it's poor business decisions that are going to kill Daz if they're not careful. Whether or not Genesis is part of that I have no idea.

 

Quote - Winterclaw wrote;

Quote - 3.  I don't like DSs interface, even if they don't want something poserlike to attract the poser users, they could still improve it.

Actually you can improve it yourself, very easily.

Coldrake

The DS interface is completely alien and hostile to a Poser user. You can't change that. You can only change fancy colors and fonts and layouts. There is no way to change the layout of the menus, the chaotic structure within menus, the way menu items appear and disappear without logic and how UI items are named differently from poser for the sake of being different.

 

Genesis isn't killing DAZ - DAZ is killing DAZ.

The company leadership continues to make the same bone-headed moves that they have been making for a number of years. 

DAZ does not learn from their mistakes.  The scary part is that they may not view them as mistakes. 

DAZ really thought everyone who shopped at DAZ would just dump their Poser workflows for DS4 because DS4 had genesis.  A year later, DS4 still doesn't have documentation, all core features out of beta, etc.  It is still a half completed piece of software that can't be finished as long as Daz refuses to get to feature freeze.

Imckenzie, you are not the only one that has notices that DAZ wants to build a closed ecosystem like Apple.  Don't point that out in the DAZ forums though, your post will be swiftly deleted.  More on that later.....

The problem is that DAZ has absolutely no clue as to WHY the Apple ecosystem works like it does.  The Apple ecosystem works because everything in it "just works".  Apple has an OCD approach to fit and finish.  Can anyone with a straight face say that about anything that DAZ makes?  I didn't think so.

 

Lets start with Business Processes....

If DAZ has a business plan, they need to start following it.  The customer base has been drug pillar to post with changes in strategic direction  Re: The "It's Not Fair" thread in the old forum.  DAZ (for once) laid out how they were going to handle sales in the future.  It lasted all of about 90 days and they were back to "sales all the time" - after stirring up the natives.

Killing revenue streams - Making DS4P available for free after attempting (apparently unsuccessfully) to sell it guarantees that no one will EVER pay for it.  People know they can just wait a couple of months and DAZ will give it away.  And why did they do that?  Because nobody was buying the Content Creation Tools.  How do I know that?  I counted the genesis specific products.  From the release of DS4 to the beginning of March Madness, there were 300 items for sale (or free) at DAZ.  That is everything, to include bundles.  It is hard to create content when there isn't actually any documentation available to help with said content creation.  That is why I believe they gave it away for 4 months, and have gone back to giving it (and Bryce and Hexagon away).

Maybe if we ignore the customers, they will leave us alone....

Speaking of not talking (or listening) to the customer base.  Anytime something bad happens, DAZ reps are nowhere to be found.  They don't like dealing with angry customers so they dump that off to the forum admins.  Take for example the latest website fiasco - At no point has anyone from the top of the foodchain shown up and attemped to calm the waters.  And we are going on 90 days now.  The "leadership" of Daz works under the belief that they have an infinite amount of goodwill with the customer base.  Not a good assumption, because people are starting to vote with their feet.

Of course, DAZ could have stopped the sales of Poser 9/2012 in it's tracks had they simply thought about what they were doing.  At no time in the runup to the release of DS4, did DAZ ever warn the Poser community that the new flagship figure wouldn't work in Poser.  Then DAZ was constantly stating in their forums that they had no intentions of creating a schism in the DS/Poser community.  Any post that called them on that BS was immediately deleted.

Software......

1.  DAZ is too cheap to spend money for developer seats for OSX or Windows.  How do I know this?  Because DAZ is CONSTANTLY blind-sided by changes in the operating systems.  This is why, for example Carrara, Bryce & Hexagon don't work with OSX 10.8 - If they had developer liscences (at $99 per year for OSX), they would have had access to betas, and could have made patches.  Oh wait, that leads to the next issue.

2.  The programmers at DAZ couldn't program their way out of a paper bag.  They have been developing software since 2005 and they STILL DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ISSUE A SERVICE PACK.

3.  DS4 upon release wasn't finished, in fact, it still isn't.  They simply announced that the last beta was the production version, which generated a number of WTF posts from beta testers.  It had the smell of a panic release with so many uncompleted (and undocumented functions).  Poser 9/2012 feature set (especially the ability to weight map legacy figures) appears to have spooked DAZ.

4.  Don't get me started with their other software.  I got screwed on Cararra 6, Bryce, and Hexagon (which didn't run on OSX for 4 YEARS - but DAZ would happily sell it to unsuspecting mac users without warning them that it wouldn't run under 10.5 or 10.6.

 

Genesis Part 1 - Technical Issues

**
**

The first technical screwup was the belief that SmithMicro would rewrite Poser to use a propritary file format that was documented to DAZ standards. File formats that they are still creating, DSON being the latest.

And just who would be expected to support this?  SmithMicro, not DAZ.  I could certainly see DAZ rewriting code that just happened not to work properly in Poser ("We're adding cool features and they all work just fine in DS, you should be using that instead of Poser" will be the excuse.)  Sorry, but I lived through both "DOS ain't done til 1-2-3 won't run" and the nightmare that Win16 support was in OS/2 - MicroSoft changed the Win16 API every 2 weeks until IBM gave up trying to support it.

Then there was the tackyness of DAZ telling Poser users that they needed to badger SM to add support for genesis into Poser.  This is coming from the same folks who never added any support in DS for any Poser 5 or later feature.  Interestingly, I haven't seen a similar campaign to get other companies to rewrite their 3d apps to use genesis natively.  Not even Cararra.... Oops.

No one from DAZ has ever explained what problem genesis solves for the customer base - other than giving vendors a new mesh to remake clothing for.  Genesis solves a problem for DAZ - 1 mesh instead of 2.  Which would make since if they actually tried to fix the problems in their figures, but they seem to have stopped doing that with the release of V4.2 back in 2006.  On the other hand, there is an entire cottage industry devoted to provided fixes for DAZ figures that DAZ was too lazy to address.

**
**

Genesis Part Duex - Sales Issues

Genesis has been a marketplace failure.  I was around when V4 rolled out the door - the DAZ gen3  products disappeared in about 90 days. 

The DAZ Gen 4 figures work in Cararra, DS, and Poser.  The genesis figure works in DS, Poser to a very limited extent, if the customer is willing to roll their sleeves up (and very, very few are willing to do it.), - I don't know about Cararra - I do know that the new, weight mapped Alyson 2 works in Cararra - I saw some shots with Anastasia in it.

Genesis came out a year ago, and if you want genesis products, for the most part, you are shopping at DAZ, because genesis products are few and far between anywhere else.  For example, Sickleyield has developed about 90% of the genesis clothing available here at 'Rosity.  Hell, Miki has more clothing at 'Rosity, RNDA and Content Paradise than genesis has at those sites.

 

Vendors -

1.  The clothing vendors at DAZ for the most part are not making new clothing for genesis, they are converting Gen4 clothing to genesis.  As I said over in one of the DAZ forums:

"I am not all that interested in buying Grace Pumps for Genesis, when I paid good money for Grace Pumps for V4, or Pharaoh for Genesis when I already purchased Pharaoh for V4/M4, or Boudoir Bliss for Genesis Female when I already purchased Boudoir Whispers for V4, or Liquid Halo On Sky 16 for Genesis when I already bought Liquid Halo On Sky 16 for V4 or the Morphing Fantasy Dress for Genesis when I already own the Morphing Fantasy dress for V4, A3, V3, SP3, Laura, The Girl, .... well you get the idea."

2.  The character creators are just recycling the same characters and look over and over - as an example, you have 3 Thorne & Sarsa characters, you have all of them.

 

 

The Website......

"The DAZ website rollout is like a living monument to the Dunning-Kruger effect."

I can't put it any more succently than that.

 

The Forums......

The moderators got much more heavy-handed once the new website flopped out the door.  Posts and entire threads were being deleted as quickly as they were posted.  For about the first 30 days only the "kool-aid" drinkers could expect their posts to stay up.  The moderators are about as unprofessional as they come.

The Platinum Club.....

DAZ needs to rename it the "DAZ Originals Club" because that is all that it is good for now.

This is what is killing the company ^^

Daz is killing Daz.

ssgbryan, I don't think you're wrong about any of that, though I don't think it's quite as bad for Daz as you suggest.

I can't help wondering, though, why we should really care.

---

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - since the release of genesis i feel nothing daz puts out for sale is for me (a poser user), so much so that im thinking of removing my platinum membership,as it feels like a waste of my time and money, i dont know if anyone else feels left out like i do by daz?

 

Yeah.  I feel the same way.  You can still get critters and sets there so I'm not 100% ready to give up my PC memebership yet, but I'm getting close.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - ssgbryan, I don't think you're wrong about any of that, though I don't think it's quite as bad for Daz as you suggest.

I can't help wondering, though, why we should really care.

Becuase it is the poser users fault for not adapting to DS4 and gene completely!!! Everything would have been just fine if we did that!!!

 

No I don't believe that but I'm strongly sure that such will be the excuse they'll use at some point.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Moriador, I don't care about DAZ.  I don't have a personal relationship with DAZ. 

I have (actually, it is moving to had) a business relationship with DAZ.  Which is why since the new webstore rollout, most of my posts have been deleted and I have been counseled by the DAZ forum mods about my "negative attitude and unreasoned criticism".  Which isn't true, my criticism is very reasoned, my negative attitude is based on the facts on the ground and I broke my rose-tinted glasses a long time ago. 

DAZ is very dependant on customers believing that they have a personal relationship with the company.  DAZ's attitude should have that cleared up for everyone by now.

DAZ has made it very clear in their actions, that as a Poser user they don't want my money.  And based on their lack of programming skills on the OSX platform, I have no interest in getting ripped off (again) with their shoddy software.

So the money that used to go to DAZ ($100 a month average from Dec 2004 to Aug 2011) is now going to other vendors.

As a Poser user, the best thing that has happened in the past year is DAZ trying to inflict the grey golum on us.

A year ago, the DAZ Gen4 characters were all that anyone used.  Very little of the Poser 5 or later technology was being used, everyone for the most part was still stuck in the Poser 4 world because of DAZ refusing to move forward.

Look at what we have now - More figures (The SM G3 figures, Antonia, Bella, Michelle, Kez, and more on the way (Lucas and possibley Brad) - Better legacy figures (With weightmapping - people are starting to pull out older characters & freshinging them up).  All of the updates to Poser systems (lighting, rendering) and a thriving ecosystem of experts in everything from figure creation to lighting.

 

The Poser community is no longer waiting on DAZ.  We are forging our own future, where they simply provide sets and props.

 

I am sure DAZ will survive genesis, but I believe they will survive as a much smaller company.

 

 

 

For me, this exchange was the writing on the wall.  I am talking to one of the forum mods about a critical bug in DS4 that prevented me from using it. (DS4 would crash withing 15 seconds of launch, with no user input required - just launching the program.)

Richard Haseltine - 12 June 2012 01:33 PM

a) bug reports are acted on, but many are duplicates and so aren’t marked as resolved.

b) it depends on the bug. Some are intermittent, or affect only a limited number of users, or appear only in special circumstances; for those reports are needed to identify the bug’s cause so it can be fixed. Other issues with the store - such as the lack of warning when repurchasing a previously purchased item - are known and don’t really need more reports.

If something isn’t marked as a new issue it’s probably worth a report, or a note to a pre-existing report if there is one.

 

ssgbryan - 12 June 2012 02:15 PM

Has ANYONE at DAZ worked in a production environment?  How on earth do you know what has been fixed and what hasn’t if you don’t update the tracker?  When I go into bugtracker & I see over 300 bugs (crashes only) that haven’t been addressed in months, how am I supposed to know if DAZ has looked at or fixed ANYTHING.

 

Richard Haseltine - 12 June 2012 02:28 PM

To an extent you won’t - though the Change Log for the app you are using should give some idea, if full or public betas are being released |(in fact for DS4 at least the change logs are in the wiki even for purely internal builds).

ssgbryan Posted: 12 June 2012 02:35 PM

OMG…..

I have worked places were we fired an entire IT staff because they had no idea what was fixed and what wasn’t.

Richard, does anyone at DAZ not understand that the person that turns in a bug will check back on a regular, if not daily basis to see if the bug has been addressed?  Does anyone not understand the messege this sends to the customer?

Now I know why I had to PM the CTO on a bug issue.

 

After this, I knew that I wouldn't be spending much time or money at DAZ anymore.....

Dunno about daz being killed but it must be hurting at least a little, because I am buying far less stuff there than I used to do.

Love esther

MY ONLINE COMIC IS NOW LIVE

I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

An interesting thread you started here. I'm too new and I don't know if DAZ3D kills itself with Genesis. But I wanted to share nethertheless my thoughts about it - following a trace of DAZ3D mistakes.

I started doing 3D 1/2 year ago. 1 year ago DAZ introduced Genesis together with DAZ Studio 4. When I started I saw not that much content for Genesis, vendors still focused more on V4.

The lack of the SDK for Studio 4 was another issue, a lot of People didn't switch to the new version because of missing plugins. So they didn't use Genesis as far as I read in the old DAZ forums.

So I decided right from the start to avoid Genesis at all. Starting more with legacy V3/M3 and working my way up to V4/M4. Still searching for alternatives, like Miki 3, G2 characters or Alyson (2); and even the free mesh of Antonia at runtimeDNA.

Being a new user with professional background in photography I think that I'm not alone with my decision to avoid Genesis.

Let's see if Genesis turns one day to Exodus... ;-)

Quote - .....

As a Poser user, the best thing that has happened in the past year is DAZ trying to inflict the grey golum on us.

.....

So true! If it wasn't for Genesis I would probably never have bought PP2012 :ohmy:

 

 

I think that is something you really do need to give credit to Daz, without them and the way they have gone in the past year I am not sure we would have all the extras that have come Poser's way.  I use V4WM almost exclusively at the moment although I am keeping an eye on how My Michelle develops. I am also looking forward to the new SM figures that appear to be ready for launch.  Others have used some of the many other products that have already been listed here.  We will never know the answer, but I do wonder how many would have seen the light of day if Genesis had been a poser figure.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - 4.  Overprice junk like this is killing daz.

??
the viking-motorbike was o.oo this morning.  guess i nabbed it just in time.

You need to be logged in to see the PC price. It's still free.

WOW!  I saved more than my yearly PC membership cost-what a DEAL!!  :lol:

Of couse, I found out about it here rather than from DAZ; communication has been an issue there as of late. :rolleyes:

I like DAZ; I got my start in 3D with Studio 1.8, and I've long been able to find a good deal or two there.  It's been sad to see this happen; it's sort of like like watching a friend drink himelf to death. I wish they'd get their act togther.

 

PS; the DAZ Originals sale has been over for a week; I wish they'd take them out of the sale category...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

I like DAZ; I got my start in 3D with Studio 1.8, and I've long been able to find a good deal or two there.  It's been sad to see this happen; it's sort of like like watching a friend drink himelf to death. I wish they'd get their act togther.

 

I feel much the same way, if I had not stummbled on Daz some years ago I would not have the hobby I have now.  Using one of the early free versions of Daz was the only reason I had the courage to spend, what I regarded as a lot of money at the time, on Poser 5.  I liked Poser and stopped using Daz software but still spent a small fortune at Daz 3D.  I subscribed to PC membership for something like 4 years and thought it was great at the time.  I guess my horizons were raised though and I started buying higher quality products and, while there were some real good PC products available, soon the cost of membership was not worth it.  It was not Daz's fault I moved on and I still shopped at Daz and happily paid more for the items I wanted.  Today I would still buy from Daz if there was something I wanted, the prices I do think have gone up but I would still pay them if there was something I wanted and could use.  Sadly the Daz I think I knew seems to have gone and I miss my old friend.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Quote - no disrespect, Rawn. but you have a niche market for creatures made from a base mesh, so Genesis will work for you, as you have a good following of customers.

your sales will not correspond with that of a mainstream vendor. it is a known fact, that outside of DAZ3D's own store, VERY FEW Genesis products will be found.

that says to me that few mainstream vendors have taken on creating for Genesis.

 

Of course I am talking about myself and my experience LOL

Naturally it takes a while for others to get used to new technology, so it is no surprise that there are not as many developers for genesis as there is for legacy content.

But the numbers are growing as people find out how versitile and easy it really is to work with.

There is even a thread in the daz forums that shows how other sites are starting their support:

 

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/5065/

 

But my point was....it is not genesis that is making things hard on daz right now....right now the issues is really about the site and summer slow-downs that are playing hard on everyone involved there.

 

Rawn

Quote - Besides being summer, I think a big part of the reason you're not seeing many replies in the threads is that new posts don't bring the thread to the top, they quickly get pushed off the front page where people don't see them anymore. This is something DAZ really, really needs to get fixed.

Coldrake

This is true. I've gone to the Daz forums a total of two times since they changed them. And while I didn't go that often to begin with, I did go a lot more often than twice in a many month period...lol. I hope they do get that fixed.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Besides being summer, I think a big part of the reason you're not seeing many replies in the threads is that new posts don't bring the thread to the top, they quickly get pushed off the front page where people don't see them anymore. This is something DAZ really, really needs to get fixed.

Coldrake

This is true. I've gone to the Daz forums a total of two times since they changed them. And while I didn't go that often to begin with, I did go a lot more often than twice in a many month period...lol. I hope they do get that fixed.

Laurie

I can't believe that it wasn't set up properly to begin with, as I've NEVER seen a forum set up that way; what are the defaults for their Forum package??  It's just not worth the effort to try to plow through the topics looking for new posts, even with the compraratively sparce number.  If I happen across something interesting, I subscribe or I'll never find it again....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

I like genesis. I like that I can buy one outfit and use it on just about any character I make. There are a lot of things about Daz Studio that I like and there are a lot of things about Poser 2012 and 9 that I like. But the Daz store needs more work as it's a pain to shop there. I have always liked the forums here, but have never really gone to the Daz forums much and now am even more inclined to stay away. I understand that they want to move away from Poser with the M5 and V5 but I think they are making a big mistake. Poser has kept Daz alive all these years and if they continue to push away the Poser users they won't have much left. Daz Studio and genesis will never be enough to keep them afloat in my humble opinion. I will continue to work in Studio and Poser but the cost of the plugins and the fact that they don't really have an upgrade path on most of them,the plugins, will probably drive me back to Poser.

Is that why you've been so quiet Marque? Gone to the dark side? LOL.

I'm just kidding...lol. I tried to use DS4 myself but I just couldn't get used to the interface. And the content part of it kept running even after I closed the program.  I'm hoping they fixed that. It's not only very rude but impacts resources I can't otherwise afford to lose.

Laurie

Oooooooooooooohhhhhhh! That's scarey talk!  lol

Just now getting back into this whole mess and it's become a tad intimidating. Trying to sort through all the new and force myself to get rid of old ideas  heh

It is not Daz that is in danger it is Poser. Smith Micro has to to come up with an answer to Genesis, if they succeed they will hang on otherwise not.

 

 

 

 

Actually many of the genesis "features" were already available in poser figures before.

Look at my PLUS sets at Daz which include things like baby FBMs, and other extreme body changes. All Daz really did was build  those options into a base figure, and enhance the possibilities with joint adjustment (which poser pro already has) and scaling enhancements, which SM has had on thier plate for some time, I think.

Geografting, applying alternate uv maps are pretty much the only features poser lacks, since wardrobe wizard covers fitting clothing.

Daz's biggest danger is Daz itself. LOL!

And how much ya wanna bet we see Genesis II within a year? Daz needs that bi yearly new major figure release to boost sales numbers.

 

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

why buy daz.. when you'll get it free later anyway, from them or on a magazine?

no point in paying is there.

"Actually many of the genesis "features" were already available in poser figures before."

I don't think that people really understand the difference.

It is not that V5/M5 are beautiful character even if they are, It isn't because of excellent weight mapping even if it is, it isn't about subdivision that open up a the whole game market. It is not because is much easier to make conforming clothing (anyone can do it). It is because you as a vendor only have to create one set of cloth for a whole range of characters. And all V4/M4 characters can very easily be used, not only on Genesis base figure but all the derived characters from it.

There you have a powerful concept.

 

 

 

 

and Vintorix, we could do that anyway using the clothroom. just because few did it, did not mean it couldn't be done. you can actually move outfits from V to M to etc. just no one could be bothered.

been there. done that. worn the shirt.

i wonder if daz has decided to start their split from being more aimed towards poser and more towards their own software, and who can blame them, if you look at the daz studio forum and gallery you will notice alot of people use it.im not sore that they are supporting poser less,i think this was going to happen anyway. i can see more poser users removing their daz memberships and daz studios differences being greater in the future to make poser and daz3d content even more incompatible. good luck to them. i do hope that smith micro do justice to poser and do more for poser rather than relying on their customers and sites like renderosity to improve the poser experience.ie daz seam to do alot more for ds after its initial release than smith micro do for poser, im sure i will probably be stoned by the poser fanatics for this post,lol.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

"im sure i will probably be stoned by the poser fanatics for this post,lol."

 

well that went a long way to make sure of that did'nt it?

The cloth room? I don't know how many years it has gone without update. More likely it has never been updated as it was a package that they bought from a third party. No one at SM understand a quota of it. That is my guess.

 

 

 

..and your guess would be 100% wrong, since they've optimised it several times over the years.

Plus you are discounting wardrobe wizard as well.

In other words, you have horse blins on to anything except Daz Studio, which is folly.

Never give your loayalty to any band or any company, because neither will return it.

Yes, Daz Studio does have some amazing features I use myself, and poser does as well.

 

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

To answer vinnie, all SM has to do is continue to make software that works, is fairly easy to navigate, and has documentation and bug fixes.  This will place them several light years ahead of daz without needing another new figure. And SM is a lot more than just Poser. 

I'd have to check, but I believe it's been at least four months since I've gotten anything from DAZ beyond pulling down 4.5 or whatever the number is now, and that was just to check the DL speed, got a new connection.  I don't check the daz store, too much wading through the genesis stuff trying to find something for the gen 3 or 4 characters that might be interesting.  Dropped PC months ago, I was buying nothing and didn't need the constant drain on my CC. 

I have Cararra, Bryce, Hex, DS4pro, but i've pulled them all out of my computers.  Don't know what the programmers problems are, but instability  and crashes aren't going to convince me to try them again. 

But daz going exclusively with the gene stuff, the equivalent of standing behind a recoilless rifle and pulling the lanyard.  (for those that don't know, the recoilless rifle is closer to a rocket than a gun, the propellent exhaust comes out the back, standing behind it is a good way to commit suicide.)

As far as the daz website,  I don't go there anymore, first, too confusing, second, too hard to read for me.  Might be fixes for that somewhere, but I'm not interested in finding them.

 

D.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

 

Quote - The cloth room? I don't know how many years it has gone without update. More likely it has never been updated as it was a package that they bought from a third party. No one at SM understand a quota of it. That is my guess.

 

 

 

 

You just told me you might have tried it once, maybe with P5, and couldn't get along with it.  I have no problems, and I can see the improvements that have been made.  Enough that I don't use conforming now, probably about 95% dynamic. 

If you want to talk about someone not understanding, DS and optitex might be a far better example.  Still no creation tools?  Why not?  Dead end.

 

D.

The "I" in Doric is Silent.

 

Quote - The cloth room? I don't know how many years it has gone without update. More likely it has never been updated as it was a package that they bought from a third party. No one at SM understand a quota of it. That is my guess.

 

I know it was acquired - but where do you get the inside knowledge that it has never been updated or developers not understanding one quota of it?

 

 

As one who uses the cloth room pretty heavily, let me assure you... it has been improved pretty much with each release of Poser since 6 (which is where I started with the program.) It is far more stable now, and works much faster.

Those who have trouble with CR typically don't understand that you first have to make sure there is no poke-thru. Do that, and it pretty well works with no hitches.

Yeah, I have no problems whatsoever with the cloth room nor do I think that SM knows nothing about it. They cover what each function does in the manual and what they don't cover is covered by those in the community that use it.

Laurie

The cloth room has definitely been improved. Most (if not all) the bugs I reported have been fixed. Features have been added as well. I just wanted to point out that it was a nonsense remark

 

 

> Quote - "Actually many of the genesis "features" were already available in poser figures before." > > I don't think that people really understand the difference. > > It is not that V5/M5 are beautiful character even if they are, It isn't because of excellent weight mapping even if it is, it isn't about subdivision that open up a the whole game market. It is not because is much easier to make conforming clothing (anyone can do it). It is because you as a vendor only have to create one set of cloth for a whole range of characters. And all V4/M4 characters can very easily be used, not only on Genesis base figure but all the derived characters from it. > > There you have a powerful concept. > >  

You mean like this?

In the first image, I have a V4 piece of clothing - The Courageous Outfit for V4.  Going from left to right - V4, V3, Kez, Sydney, Anastasia, Miki 2.

In the second image - I have a M4 piece of clothing (with the V4 to show the differences is uniform design) - The Valiant outfit for M4. The males from left to right - M4, M3, Apollo Maximus, Rikishi and Kelvin. - The best part - notice how the non-DAZ characters do not have the "macaroni" shoulders that the DAZ characters have.

Yes, being able to put any piece of clothing on any character is a powerful concept - One which we have had in the Poser world since the Poser 6 timeframe.  And we can do it with any character that has either Wardrobe Wizard or Xdresser support.  Genesis requires us to purchase genesis specific clothing or deal with autofit all of which only works to put older clothing on genesis.

 

One other thing to note.  Genesis clothing may go on male or female figures, but so far, the unisex clothing has been cut for females.  There is a reason that Town & Country for Genesis, the male is always wearing a tie - the buttons are on the same side as a female shirt.  On the Farm for Genesis has the pants cut at a capri length - fine for females, but give off a "Deliverance" smell for the men.

Oops, here is the second image

"..but where do you get the inside knowledge that it has never been updated or developers not understanding one quota of it?"

Because I compare it to how dynamic cloth simulations stands to day. One of the hottest technologies around with hundreds of companies in the world exploring it.

 

 

Quote - "..but where do you get the inside knowledge that it has never been updated or developers not understanding one quota of it?"

Because I compare it to how dynamic cloth simulations stands to day. One of the hottest technologies around with hundreds of companies in the world exploring it.

 

 

So it was a nonsense remark

Yanno vintorix if Poser had all the features of your beloved Marvelous Designer in it, it would be twice the price. For Poser purposes, the cloth room works just fine. It was never made to create the clothing as MD does. Besides, you can still get something you made from MD into Poser EASILY as opposed to DS which doesn't do cloth simulation on it's own (a plugin is needed I think). You also cannot make your own cloth and import it into DS's plugin, unless I've missed something. You need to buy the cloth from Optitex which, for me, is a huge black mark against DS. I'm perfectly capable of making my own clothing and Poser is the only program that allows me to use it.

Now, what was the original thread topic?

Laurie

I was getting ready to say... we are getting pretty far afield from the OP's question. The merits of Poser vs DS4 have been discussed endlessly, and they always end with locked threads.

Let's drop that part of the discussion (NOW) and return to the OP's issues, as LaurieA suggests.

Hello!

Even if Genesic si a very good idea and concept I returned to Poser and will not renew my PC membership( PC member since 2003).

The reason is the rendertime. Even if the final result seems to be near (in the forums) , Daz is very slow and I'n not sure that reality is a response for that (and it seem that the Poser'version will soon be availiable). Perhaps I don't know how to use DS (I have used it for the early times and bought DS4 advanced but as an alternative) but my poser renders are faster and better.

Now for me I don't like the interface of DS , changes are not easy to learn for the textures and if the software is often updated . The plugs are slowly upgraded (if you don't have to pay  for it).

Poser seems to me more intuitive.

And I don't want to buy again an outfit fo V4 I already own.

That my opinion

 

Lledeline

I just quit the Platinum Club. I use Poser, and Daz Studio would not work on my PC for some reason and Daz would not help me. I'm sticking with V4, plus I have older characters that I have hardly used. Daz's new web site sucks. I got an ad saying there was  a sale on Martin Frost, and when I clicked the link it took me to a Daz under construction page. It will be under construction and the sale will end. Duh? I do not buy anything from Daz anymore. I stick to rendo. So they lost my busines because Genesis is not working in Poser. Oh, well. Rendo has plenty for M4 and V4.

Quote - I was getting ready to say... we are getting pretty far afield from the OP's question. The merits of Poser vs DS4 have been discussed endlessly, and they always end with locked threads.

Let's drop that part of the discussion (NOW) and return to the OP's issues, as LaurieA suggests.

 

Basicwiz, I have to disagree with you on this.  Whereas the merits of Poser vs. DS4 have been discussed ad nausem, they do apply directly to the OP question.

One simply can't talk about genesis features without talking about DS4 - the technologies are directly tied into each other, just like MicroSoft integrated Internet Exploder into Windows.

Genesis isn't a figure, it is a mesh platform for DS4.  Getting the genesis out of DS4 into Poser (or Cararra) is a fair bit of work.  It only works well in DS4 and it is perfectly reasonable for anyone who uses genesis to discuss how the features of the program and the character platform are tightly integrated - that was deliberately planned.

The Poser community and DAZ have come up with different ways to solve the same problem - Clothing for multiple figures.  Some people prefer the "one size fits all" approach that DS4 takes, and if you are new to this, it makes a lot of sense, both from the financial side and the learning curve.  Others prefer the more flexable approach that WW or Xdresser brings to the table.

Hell, I have absolutely no use for DS4, but I do see the advantages. I hate, hate hate the color scheme and GUI, but I have seen some nifty ideas in that GUI.  And I wouldn't mind adding it to my (growing) arsenal of tools.

What I also see is that DAZ has continued to botch the execution (like all of their software) with a DS4 that is half completed, and a very, very naked power grab that the "leadership" at DAZ thought would be eagerly accepted by the Poser community.  When that didn't happen, DAZ's corporate ego won't allow them to admit that they screwed the pooch and come up with a plan B.

 

The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure.  We can clearly see that based on the lack of genesis content outside of a semi-functional DAZ store.

If the vendors feel that genesis is a failure, then they won't develop for genesis, and it will go the way of earlier non-mainstream characters.

 

The interesting question is what is going to happen at the DAZ store when genesis reaches the V4 level of impractical armor and hookerware - Because of how genesis is designed, there is nowhere to go.

 

From my perspective, it appears that DAZ would much rather have a stranglehold on a much smaller DS4 market than have a majority of the Poser/DS market. Which makes sense if you look at the company's control issues.

Quote -
In the first image, I have a V4 piece of clothing - The Courageous Outfit for V4.  Going from left to right - V4, V3, Kez, Sydney, Anastasia, Miki 2.

 

To go just about completely OT;

ssgbryan, did you use the K plugin to convert clothes to KEZ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

"The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

 

 

Quote - "The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

 

It's certainly too soon to decide success or failure; wait a year, which will be about the midpoint of the Genesis I life cycle, based on past DAZ figures' histories...

 

EDIT ...and now that I think about it, likely the imminent arrival of Poser 10 and PP 2014...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - "The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

 

You have a strange notion of the "biggest success that has ever happened in the poser universe" since it does not work in the poser universe - at least not the portions which would make it great.

 

 

Quote - > Quote -

In the first image, I have a V4 piece of clothing - The Courageous Outfit for V4.  Going from left to right - V4, V3, Kez, Sydney, Anastasia, Miki 2.

 

To go just about completely OT;

ssgbryan, did you use the K plugin to convert clothes to KEZ?

 

Yes, Yes I did.  It works perfectly - from what I can tell, the changes from K to KEZ were internal.  I haven't tried it on the weight mapped version yet, but it is on my list of things to test.

Quote - > Quote - "The vendors have spoken and declared genesis a failure."

It is interesting to note that someone is trying to turn the biggest success that ever has happened in the poser universe to a failure. Someone is obviously nervous here, for some reason.

 

You have a strange notion of the "biggest success that has ever happened in the poser universe" since it does not work in the poser universe - at least not the portions which would make it great.

 

 

Not even sure you could describe it as the biggest success in the Daz world either...it may be but for most rational people the jury is still out which is probably what prompted the original question of this thread.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

Wether it is called a success or a failure doesnt really matter.

What matters is that it does give some unique opportunities to a market that has really been pushed as far as it could with how unique of characters could be made from an individual mesh.

While that may not be important to some people, to others it brings in a whole new life for development.

No, it's not the be all and end all, and neither is ds4 or poser the be all and end all in the software of this kind. They each offer their own uses. But what is good is that people can adopt whatever one they need for their own uses and still have a market available for what they decide to produce for.

It is pointless to argue which is better or worse, because it really is up to personal tastes. I still use both interchangably depending on what I need done. I don't have any desire to change peoples opinions to my own, and i know people wont change mine LOL...what changes my opinion is simply what I can do with either, and that is what makes it more or less usefull TO ME.

 

Quote - Wether it is called a success or a failure doesnt really matter.

What matters is that it does give some unique opportunities to a market that has really been pushed as far as it could with how unique of characters could be made from an individual mesh. 

 

You are right and the original question was not about success or failure of Genesis but if it was hurting Daz.  There are a lot of people who seem to feel Daz is being hurt but not because of Genesis alone.  I agree that it is pointless to argue over which is best, they are now quite different and it would appear that this trend will continue.  

Things have changed and that is the way of the world. That does not stop some of us who were long term customers of Daz feeling sad that we are no longer customers because there is little of interest there.  It is a bit like finding out you favorite pub is under new management and all that made it you favorite pub has been replaced by stuff that does not appeal.  Of course you find another pub but that does not prevent the feeling of sadness because something that gave you pleasure has gone, and seemingly forever.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

It is not only Daz and Poser. There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D. The Cinema plugin Interposer does 90% of what Daz/Poser can do, and much what they cannot. It is especially strong in animation. Regardless what program you work with you think "Poser files", "Daz-files" would be ridiculous. Poser is on its way to become a generic term like xerox. 

The guy who did Interposer is now hired by Daz to do Genesis. It will be interesting to see if they will do a separate program for Genesis or one program for both.

 

 

Quote - > Quote -

To go just about completely OT;

ssgbryan, did you use the K plugin to convert clothes to KEZ?

Yes, Yes I did.  It works perfectly - from what I can tell, the changes from K to KEZ were internal.  I haven't tried it on the weight mapped version yet, but it is on my list of things to test.

You likely can convert clothing from KEZ to KEZ WM using Poser Place's Outfitter.

Thanx for the info. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Well alot of changes have taken place at DAZ over the last year, and there are still more changes coming.

I myself am not happy with alot of the changes, and have had my share of exchanges with daz to that regard.

But the fact that changes are still going on, and whatever the situation is now, doesnt mean it will be that way 6 months from now. All people have to do is keep an open mind.

It is tiring to hear "oh so and so did this or that...so I will never go there again", when really, its only a store...a place to buy products for making art. The sensible thing is to see if there are any products that would help your art in this store or that store and if the product appeals to you, then buy it. The politics of what people believe a store to represent is ridiculous. In the end, if you need or like a product, then you should simply buy it.

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

But in the real world, it really is all about products.....what products do you need to make what images you need. That should really be the deciding factor in anything.

I know I will keep making the products I like, and I hope people will keep buying them. Not out of politics, or even wether they like me myself or not.....but just because they think they are cool, and know I will always put my best into them.

Success only comes when people try their best. DAZ is trying, Smith Micro is trying, both will grow as they will. Success will only be measured from the future, looking back at what they did. Right now we are all just in the middle of the game, trying to do the best we can.

 

Rawn

I still think it would be in Daz' best interest to make a compatible figure for Poser. They could still continue to have the best of both worlds ;).

Laurie

Quote - It is not only Daz and Poser. There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D. The Cinema plugin Interposer does 90% of what Daz/Poser can do, and much what they cannot. It is especially strong in animation. Regardless what program you work with you think "Poser files", "Daz-files" would be ridiculous. Poser is on its way to become a generic term like xerox. 

The guy who did Interposer is now hired by Daz to do Genesis. It will be interesting to see if they will do a separate program for Genesis or one program for both.

Are you annoying on purpose or does it just come naturally? I don't think Poser is going anywhere any time soon.

Laurie

Quote - But in the real world, it really is all about products.....what products do you need to make what images you need. That should really be the deciding factor in anything.

Well said, Rawn...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote -  

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

 

Rawn

On the whole I agree with you and the reason I do not shop at Daz at present because there is nothing there that I want/need that  iahve not already purchased.

On the wider issue there are places where I will not shop on principle and I know that  my decision has no impact on the company but I sleep just a little easier in bed at night.  There are also companies I do not invest in, do they miss my money - not one bit but I do not want to see workers abused so I can make a quick buck.  It may be a strange outlook life but I am happy with it.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

my 0.02 on the original OP question comes from the Poser History chapter in my own tutorials collection (http://www.book.artbeeweb.nl/?p=526). Just check it out, I'm not going to quote my own works.

For short: Genesis / DS is just the next step in a consistent DAZ strategie which started off in say year 2000 or so, and introduced the (V3M3S3) UniMesh geometries in the first place. DAZ aims at the games /apps / virtual life markets which are expected to meet the retail markets within a few years from now, thanks to MS kinetix etcetera.

Look at http://www.daz3d.com/shop/commercial-game-developer-license/ or just type "license" in their search field. Make up your mind, it's there for a reason. You won't find anything like that at SM.

Poser on the other hand serves a different market: that of art and illustration / animation support, ranging from manga to adult stuff to movie scene pre-staging / storyboarding to legal case support. And anything alike.

The point is: being "Poser compatible" is not the default any more. Some people seem to have trouble absorbing that. I'm sorry.

And yes, the SM development team has found and opened the door to Cloth Room, and they are making adjustments. Gradually, it's complex legacy stuff. To my knowledge, Poser Cloth Room is about the only (affordable) tool that can turn any external 3D mesh of any structure into a cloth object and run simulations on it, for better of worse. And can handle hybrid conforming/dynamic stuff, and can handle dynamic hair and scarfs colliding in the wind. Most programs can only run sims onto cloth items created in their own tailor shop. Fine, but different.

Just my opinion that is.

- - - - - 

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Quote -
For short: Genesis / DS is just the next step in a consistent DAZ strategie which started off in say year 2000 or so, and introduced the (V3M3S3) UniMesh geometries in the first place. DAZ aims at the games /apps / virtual life markets which are expected to meet the retail markets within a few years from now, thanks to MS kinetix etcetera.

Look at http://www.daz3d.com/shop/commercial-game-developer-license/ or just type "license" in their search field. Make up your mind, it's there for a reason. You won't find anything like that at SM.

 

Just because there is a game license does not mean that games are their target market.

Most products made and sold through daz are no where near game ready.

Yes it would be nice if the products could be also used in games through the lisence, but that is only something to expand the market into, not to focus exclusively on.

Thats like saying because Ford has made an electric car that they will no longer be focusing on their deisel trucks LOL

 

Rawn

Going back to the original discussion, it isn't Gene that's killing daz it is that daz is unwilling to adapt to the current market conditions.  Take windows 8, it has a lot of cool features but MS wants to pull an apple and lock down what can be loaded onto windows. 

In other words only using a "windows store".  People like Notch and Valve's Gabe Newell are both on record for saying this will kill 3rd party development for windows 8 if it happens.  Steam is looking to start supporting linux and it wouldn't surprise me if a Steambox gets more people wanting it.

 

Quote - I still think it would be in Daz' best interest to make a compatible figure for Poser. They could still continue to have the best of both worlds ;).

Laurie

 

But someone already did a WMed V4...

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - It is not only Daz and Poser. There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D. The Cinema plugin Interposer does 90% of what Daz/Poser can do, and much what they cannot. It is especially strong in animation. Regardless what program you work with you think "Poser files", "Daz-files" would be ridiculous. Poser is on its way to become a generic term like xerox. 

The guy who did Interposer is now hired by Daz to do Genesis. It will be interesting to see if they will do a separate program for Genesis or one program for both.

 

 

There are lots of programs which can read poser files - all of them have in common that they read and write files which are compatible with Poser. Genesis/DS4 files are not part of that world since only DS4 can read and write them

 

Quote - Look at http://www.daz3d.com/shop/commercial-game-developer-license/ or just type "license" in their search field. Make up your mind, it's there for a reason. You won't find anything like that at SM.

 

Not quite true; Poser Pro from the beginning has included redistributable male and female meshes.  However, AFAIK, the only real commercial use of them has been by Phil Cooke to create figures for Poser...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

As usual, I pretty much agree with Rawnrr, and yep, its way too early in the game to tell if genesis has hurt Daz. I'd say DAZ's own bungles hurt them far more than Genesis ever could.

 BTW, Ron.. Is Rawnrr the reduced res verion of Rawn? Have you lost weight?

 

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - As usual, I pretty much agree with Rawnrr, and yep, its way too early in the game to tell if genesis has hurt Daz. I'd say DAZ's own bungles hurt them far more than Genesis ever could.

 BTW, Ron.. Is Rawnrr the reduced res verion of Rawn? Have you lost weight?

 

 

 

Rawnrr is what I went under when I first signed up here well over a decade ago . I think "Rawn" was taken already, so I just added my other initials at the end.

 

Yeah, yeah.. .take my jokes seriously. ;)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - For short: Genesis / DS is just the next step in a consistent DAZ strategie which started off in say year 2000 or so, and introduced the (V3M3S3) UniMesh geometries in the first place. DAZ aims at the games /apps / virtual life markets which are expected to meet the retail markets within a few years from now, thanks to MS kinetix etcetera.

Development of the Unimesh had nothing to do with aiming at the game market.  The purpose was to eliminate the wasted effort of making separate figures completely from scratch.  DAZ pursued that further in the Mil 4 figures by seting up the "secondary" figures as morphs of the main figures, rather than as stand-alone figures.  And with Genesis, DAZ has simply taken that a step further by having all the figures as morphs of Genesis.

Quote - > Quote -  

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

 

Rawn

On the whole I agree with you and the reason I do not shop at Daz at present because there is nothing there that I want/need that  iahve not already purchased.

On the wider issue there are places where I will not shop on principle and I know that  my decision has no impact on the company but I sleep just a little easier in bed at night.  There are also companies I do not invest in, do they miss my money - not one bit but I do not want to see workers abused so I can make a quick buck.  It may be a strange outlook life but I am happy with it.

There are lots of companies I don't do business with, just based on my personal belief system.  I'm sorry, but I don't spend money with companies that are morally repugnant to me.  I just don't encourage bad behavior with my hard earned dollars.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

 

Rawn

On the whole I agree with you and the reason I do not shop at Daz at present because there is nothing there that I want/need that  iahve not already purchased.

On the wider issue there are places where I will not shop on principle and I know that  my decision has no impact on the company but I sleep just a little easier in bed at night.  There are also companies I do not invest in, do they miss my money - not one bit but I do not want to see workers abused so I can make a quick buck.  It may be a strange outlook life but I am happy with it.

There are lots of companies I don't do business with, just based on my personal belief system.  I'm sorry, but I don't spend money with companies that are morally repugnant to me.  I just don't encourage bad behavior with my hard earned dollars.

 

Which is fine if it helps you sleep at night....just don't kid yourself that the companies lose sleep over it.

I know rebok isn't losing sleep over me not buying shoes from them LOL

Well, actually I won't buy from a company I don't like either ;). And I'm certain they don't lose sleep over it...lol.

Having said that, I still buy from Daz. I like their stuff. Always did, but I don't buy anything Genesis because I'm a Poser user. That's just the way it is ;). Me by myself may not make them lose sleep, but there are a lot of us who use Poser and find less and less there to get our interest. That they may lose sleep over ;).

Laurie

(who still loves Asics)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  

I will never understand people not shopping somewhere out of principle, like their not shopping there will really make a difference. Because it really doesnt. There are always new people coming in to buy where others leave. The only ones they hurt is themselves for cutting off their nose to spite their face by refusing to buy stuff that could really help them make better art. But again, its not my place to change their opinions. If they feel what they are doing is good for them, then fine, more power to them.

 

Rawn

On the whole I agree with you and the reason I do not shop at Daz at present because there is nothing there that I want/need that  iahve not already purchased.

On the wider issue there are places where I will not shop on principle and I know that  my decision has no impact on the company but I sleep just a little easier in bed at night.  There are also companies I do not invest in, do they miss my money - not one bit but I do not want to see workers abused so I can make a quick buck.  It may be a strange outlook life but I am happy with it.

There are lots of companies I don't do business with, just based on my personal belief system.  I'm sorry, but I don't spend money with companies that are morally repugnant to me.  I just don't encourage bad behavior with my hard earned dollars.

 

Which is fine if it helps you sleep at night....just don't kid yourself that the companies lose sleep over it.

I know rebok isn't losing sleep over me not buying shoes from them LOL

I didn't suggest anyone loses sleep over any decision I make.  Except me, of course.

However, it is far more impactful in a small industry with a tiny customer base.

My issue was the fact of having to re-purchase all of the same content I already own to use Genesis the way it was designed... not that rich, or even interested. I used to go to Daz each morning to check the fast grab and pick up a product or two. Now there is not even a reason to go. And the prices are much higher for the same items I have already (*thank goodness) bought. And anything new has the dreaded Genesis Only label attached. To all vendors that might consider making Genesis products, remember to do a poser version too, sell it seperately and keep customers and $$$ in your pocket!

I think that they may have just shot themselves in the foot.

~A~

Is there water in your future or is it being shipped away to be resold to you?
Water, the ultimate weapon...
www.futurefantasydesign.com

It is not the companies that loose it is the people who refuse to learn new tools and new technique who loose.

 

Quote - It is not the companies that loose it is the people who refuse to learn new tools and new technique who loose.

Yep, we all have mud for brains. Except you vintorix...who is up on everything, right? ;)

By the way it's 'lose'. One O. I know English isn't your first language, but that was just for future reference.

Laurie

Quote - It is not the companies that loose it is the people who refuse to learn new tools and new technique who loose.

 

No one is refusing to do anything; they are making choices.

What I haven't seen mentioned that I think impacts all vendors not matter which store they choose to sell from, what software and characters they choose to support is the general overall world wide economy. It sucks big time in the EU, USA and Asia.

A lot of the forum traffic is off, store volume down, etc, etc, because people have had to park their hobby because they can't afford it like they could in the past.

Another factor is runtime bloat. When the economy got tuff, people looked at what they had invested in V4 content, and glupped-rebelled-froze up over the concept of trying to keep up and the money it would take fill up new runtime to the same level.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

"Yep, we all have mud for brains. Except you vintorix...who is up on everything, right? ;) By the way it's 'lose'. One O. I know English isn't your first language, but that was just for future reference."

And how many languages do you speak Laurie?

There are rules in this forum not to do personal attacks but you constantly attack me, the moderators never interfere. Perhaps you have special permission?

At least I don't write with the maturity of a seven year old.

 

 

Hmmm... Looks like it might be time for some cat photos, but this is interesting...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/04/penis-snake-photos-amazon-brazil-atretochoana-eiselti_n_1742088.html

 

Do I need a Nudity flag for a link to a naked snake?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Quote - Hmmm... Looks like it might be time for some cat photos, but this is interesting...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/04/penis-snake-photos-amazon-brazil-atretochoana-eiselti_n_1742088.html

 

Do I need a Nudity flag for a link to a naked snake?

ROFL, yes you need flags.  Lots and lots of flags.  How you expect the snake to wave them, however, is unanswerable.

Quote - "Yep, we all have mud for brains. Except you vintorix...who is up on everything, right? ;) By the way it's 'lose'. One O. I know English isn't your first language, but that was just for future reference."

And how many languages do you speak Laurie?

There are rules in this forum not to do personal attacks but you constantly attack me, the moderators never interfere. Perhaps you have special permission?

At least I don't write with the maturity of a seven year old.

Nope, I don't have special permission. I should get a three day walk just like everyone else. In fact, I'll do you a favor and give myself a three day walk. Maybe in that time you'll learn not to speak to everone else like they don't know better than you what they should be using and do it in a way that makes them sound stupid for doing it.

Laurie

I am currently a user of both PoserPro 2012 and Daz Studio 4.5 on my mac running Mountain lion; I've used Poser since Poser 2 and Daz Studio since Daz Studio 2.  I can't say that I have the insight that the various vendors do but I have made my peace with both companies at this time.  I love the look of Poser renders and have always been a fan of the quirkiness  of Kai Krauss interfaces (It makes me smile when people here mention how they can't get used to the interface of Daz Studio which is closer to other 3D programs and prefer the idiosyncratic Kai Krause interface of Poser).  If I were to offer a critique, I would ask if it would have killed SmithMicro to support a mac supported tkinter for scripts and ask Daz3d to make an effort to make some of the genesis clothing less "rubbery" looking but on the whole, I am happy with both efforts.  I buy from pretty much all of the stores.  I am especially pleased that I can open most of my legacy Poser stuff in Daz Studio, that often vendors make stuff for both characters so I can render in both programs, and find that when one tweets shading rate, they both render at about the same speed with similar quality.  It is also nice that there will be parity in Reality (one can use LuxRender with Reality for both platforms but, boy, what an enhancement in work flow speed).  I remember enough of the launches of the various sites (as well as being aware of the economies of scale now and the legacy stuff that clogs the pipes) to look forward to Daz3d's site being 100%.  Bryce, the big issue is that it is old enough that finding people to work on its innards is a problem. I don't like this strife; I think it is important for both communities to remember that we are all rendering together and need to direct this religious zeal outward rather than inward.

Quote - "Yep, we all have mud for brains. Except you vintorix...who is up on everything, right? ;) By the way it's 'lose'. One O. I know English isn't your first language, but that was just for future reference."

And how many languages do you speak Laurie?

There are rules in this forum not to do personal attacks but you constantly attack me, the moderators never interfere. Perhaps you have special permission?

At least I don't write with the maturity of a seven year old.

 

Who has the maturity (and knowledge) of a seven year old?

Grow up and learn to read

 

 Very succinct. I agree with more than 90% of your comments.

The only reason I have any interest in Genesis-is the ground breaking content from Mec4D i.e., the fiber hair and facial hair. It works really well with the Morph follower capability-which allows it to move properly in conjunction with morphs. Take a look at her current Neanderthal character- fantastic. True-SOMEONE might be able to figure out something comparable with the hair room-but I've yet to see it.

The other benefit WAS that Genesis bends much more naturaly than V4.  I spent many hours as a beta tester putting V4-WM and the clothing converter app through their paces to assist Cage, Phantom, Shvrdavid and others in Weight Mapping V4 so she bends nearly as naturally as Genesis.

 

Quote - Genesis isn't killing DAZ - DAZ is killing DAZ.

The company leadership continues to make the same bone-headed moves that they have been making for a number of years. 

DAZ does not learn from their mistakes.  The scary part is that they may not view them as mistakes. 

DAZ really thought everyone who shopped at DAZ would just dump their Poser workflows for DS4 because DS4 had genesis.  A year later, DS4 still doesn't have documentation, all core features out of beta, etc.  It is still a half completed piece of software that can't be finished as long as Daz refuses to get to feature freeze.

Imckenzie, you are not the only one that has notices that DAZ wants to build a closed ecosystem like Apple.  Don't point that out in the DAZ forums though, your post will be swiftly deleted.  More on that later.....

The problem is that DAZ has absolutely no clue as to WHY the Apple ecosystem works like it does.  The Apple ecosystem works because everything in it "just works".  Apple has an OCD approach to fit and finish.  Can anyone with a straight face say that about anything that DAZ makes?  I didn't think so.

 

Lets start with Business Processes....

If DAZ has a business plan, they need to start following it.  The customer base has been drug pillar to post with changes in strategic direction  Re: The "It's Not Fair" thread in the old forum.  DAZ (for once) laid out how they were going to handle sales in the future.  It lasted all of about 90 days and they were back to "sales all the time" - after stirring up the natives.

Killing revenue streams - Making DS4P available for free after attempting (apparently unsuccessfully) to sell it guarantees that no one will EVER pay for it.  People know they can just wait a couple of months and DAZ will give it away.  And why did they do that?  Because nobody was buying the Content Creation Tools.  How do I know that?  I counted the genesis specific products.  From the release of DS4 to the beginning of March Madness, there were 300 items for sale (or free) at DAZ.  That is everything, to include bundles.  It is hard to create content when there isn't actually any documentation available to help with said content creation.  That is why I believe they gave it away for 4 months, and have gone back to giving it (and Bryce and Hexagon away).

Maybe if we ignore the customers, they will leave us alone....

Speaking of not talking (or listening) to the customer base.  Anytime something bad happens, DAZ reps are nowhere to be found.  They don't like dealing with angry customers so they dump that off to the forum admins.  Take for example the latest website fiasco - At no point has anyone from the top of the foodchain shown up and attemped to calm the waters.  And we are going on 90 days now.  The "leadership" of Daz works under the belief that they have an infinite amount of goodwill with the customer base.  Not a good assumption, because people are starting to vote with their feet.

Of course, DAZ could have stopped the sales of Poser 9/2012 in it's tracks had they simply thought about what they were doing.  At no time in the runup to the release of DS4, did DAZ ever warn the Poser community that the new flagship figure wouldn't work in Poser.  Then DAZ was constantly stating in their forums that they had no intentions of creating a schism in the DS/Poser community.  Any post that called them on that BS was immediately deleted.

Software......

1.  DAZ is too cheap to spend money for developer seats for OSX or Windows.  How do I know this?  Because DAZ is CONSTANTLY blind-sided by changes in the operating systems.  This is why, for example Carrara, Bryce & Hexagon don't work with OSX 10.8 - If they had developer liscences (at $99 per year for OSX), they would have had access to betas, and could have made patches.  Oh wait, that leads to the next issue.

2.  The programmers at DAZ couldn't program their way out of a paper bag.  They have been developing software since 2005 and they STILL DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ISSUE A SERVICE PACK.

3.  DS4 upon release wasn't finished, in fact, it still isn't.  They simply announced that the last beta was the production version, which generated a number of WTF posts from beta testers.  It had the smell of a panic release with so many uncompleted (and undocumented functions).  Poser 9/2012 feature set (especially the ability to weight map legacy figures) appears to have spooked DAZ.

4.  Don't get me started with their other software.  I got screwed on Cararra 6, Bryce, and Hexagon (which didn't run on OSX for 4 YEARS - but DAZ would happily sell it to unsuspecting mac users without warning them that it wouldn't run under 10.5 or 10.6.

 

Genesis Part 1 - Technical Issues

**
**

The first technical screwup was the belief that SmithMicro would rewrite Poser to use a propritary file format that was documented to DAZ standards. File formats that they are still creating, DSON being the latest.

And just who would be expected to support this?  SmithMicro, not DAZ.  I could certainly see DAZ rewriting code that just happened not to work properly in Poser ("We're adding cool features and they all work just fine in DS, you should be using that instead of Poser" will be the excuse.)  Sorry, but I lived through both "DOS ain't done til 1-2-3 won't run" and the nightmare that Win16 support was in OS/2 - MicroSoft changed the Win16 API every 2 weeks until IBM gave up trying to support it.

Then there was the tackyness of DAZ telling Poser users that they needed to badger SM to add support for genesis into Poser.  This is coming from the same folks who never added any support in DS for any Poser 5 or later feature.  Interestingly, I haven't seen a similar campaign to get other companies to rewrite their 3d apps to use genesis natively.  Not even Cararra.... Oops.

No one from DAZ has ever explained what problem genesis solves for the customer base - other than giving vendors a new mesh to remake clothing for.  Genesis solves a problem for DAZ - 1 mesh instead of 2.  Which would make since if they actually tried to fix the problems in their figures, but they seem to have stopped doing that with the release of V4.2 back in 2006.  On the other hand, there is an entire cottage industry devoted to provided fixes for DAZ figures that DAZ was too lazy to address.

**
**

Genesis Part Duex - Sales Issues

Genesis has been a marketplace failure.  I was around when V4 rolled out the door - the DAZ gen3  products disappeared in about 90 days. 

The DAZ Gen 4 figures work in Cararra, DS, and Poser.  The genesis figure works in DS, Poser to a very limited extent, if the customer is willing to roll their sleeves up (and very, very few are willing to do it.), - I don't know about Cararra - I do know that the new, weight mapped Alyson 2 works in Cararra - I saw some shots with Anastasia in it.

Genesis came out a year ago, and if you want genesis products, for the most part, you are shopping at DAZ, because genesis products are few and far between anywhere else.  For example, Sickleyield has developed about 90% of the genesis clothing available here at 'Rosity.  Hell, Miki has more clothing at 'Rosity, RNDA and Content Paradise than genesis has at those sites.

 

Vendors -

1.  The clothing vendors at DAZ for the most part are not making new clothing for genesis, they are converting Gen4 clothing to genesis.  As I said over in one of the DAZ forums:

"I am not all that interested in buying Grace Pumps for Genesis, when I paid good money for Grace Pumps for V4, or Pharaoh for Genesis when I already purchased Pharaoh for V4/M4, or Boudoir Bliss for Genesis Female when I already purchased Boudoir Whispers for V4, or Liquid Halo On Sky 16 for Genesis when I already bought Liquid Halo On Sky 16 for V4 or the Morphing Fantasy Dress for Genesis when I already own the Morphing Fantasy dress for V4, A3, V3, SP3, Laura, The Girl, .... well you get the idea."

2.  The character creators are just recycling the same characters and look over and over - as an example, you have 3 Thorne & Sarsa characters, you have all of them.

 

 

The Website......

"The DAZ website rollout is like a living monument to the Dunning-Kruger effect."

I can't put it any more succently than that.

 

The Forums......

The moderators got much more heavy-handed once the new website flopped out the door.  Posts and entire threads were being deleted as quickly as they were posted.  For about the first 30 days only the "kool-aid" drinkers could expect their posts to stay up.  The moderators are about as unprofessional as they come.

The Platinum Club.....

DAZ needs to rename it the "DAZ Originals Club" because that is all that it is good for now.

Eric on that note you might want to check out my future product for Genesis. It is also Fibre technology. That is why Genesis is so cool. Endless possibilities and on the fly Morph following capabilities. I could never do this on M4.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2853055

My Renderosity Store

I contributed greatly to any woes Daz may be having, thanks to Jack Tomalin, Lisa's Botanicals, and the $1.99 PC sale.  Most I spent on content in a long time!  :blink:  (still recovering...)

I like Genesis...I don't like Daz Studio, thus I am Genesis-less.  C'est la vis!

"Poser has kept Daz alive all these years..."

An interesting take. One could do 'It's a Wonderful Life' and imagine where Poser would be today if Zygote hadn't spun off DAZ to do Poser content.

"There are 3 program that can handle poser-files, Poser, Daz and C4D."

Vue and Carrara?

I'm less concerned about any one company than I am about the market as a whole. I can use something other than DS/Poser IF there is a useable, affordable application and useable affordable content. I want to see the market expand a lot and I really don't see that happening with Poser alone. If DAZ can attract different types of users, that's a good thing overall. If the market grows, then we'll hopefully see a third player as well. If that third party's product suits me better, I'll use it. Loyalty and nostalgia are all well and good but IMO they sometimes blind us to the big picture. I want to see a time when this stuff isn't overly dependent on DAZ' at times less than stellar effort at juggling software and content or Poser's less than reassuring ownership history or internal fugure development yada yada. I don't see that happening without a bigger pie to attract more new companies. Maybe something like iClone or MakeHuman will breakout but meanwhile, I hope that DAZ/Poser will take chances and look beyond the niche. They may fail but as someone said, 'Bankruptcy is to capitalism what hell is to Christianity.' :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I really don't think Genesis is killing DAZ, in fact, before the launch of the new web site/forum, there was a lot of interest in Genesis, and a lot of new users. What is hurting DAZ ...... is DAZ.

 I am continually amazed at DAZ3D's outstanding ability to shoot themselves in the foot, and then be totally amazed that it "hurts". But what I find truly amazing about it is that they do it over and over, and apparently expect different results each time.

 The forums were their software support and documentation. They were easy to monitor and find new topics you were interested in. Now they are such a dis-organised mess I find it frustrating and not very enjoyable to spend any time there (which means that there is less chance that I will spend money there as well). It's almost like they (DAZ) have this unique talent to succeed, but also have a great compulsion to self destruct. They get a lot of new users with the software givaway, then they try to chase everyone (new and old) off by rolling out a new website that clearly wasn't ready for prime time. Now, not only is the software lacking good documentation, but they crippled their forums that provided much of the information needed to assist people in using their products. I really don't get it.

 I understand that they are working hard to fix everything, but WHY didn't they do most of this work prior to going live? Do they like looking incompetent? Or ..... maybe they really are incompetent? I honestly doubt that they are incompetent, because they do come up with some outstanding products, and seem to understand and be able to follow through with good business practices ...... most of the time. It's almost like they have a sort of Jeckell and Hyde syndrom going on. Maybe they need to hire a GIBIO on their management team (Good Idea ... Bad Idea Officer) to run their ideas by before making big decisions.

 I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but Genesis really is a step forward. If you give it a go with an open mind, it's hard not to see the advantages it provides. But, going with the Jeckell and Hyde theme, DAZ comes out with a new product that provides many of the things that Poser Content users have asked for over the years, but they totally botch providing good detailed instructions and scripts for using their new product in Poser. Even though it's not simple, and without some changes to Poser (i.e. CC Subd) Genesis won't have all the features it does in DS, but Genesis is usable in Poser (see http://www.daz3d.com/shop/genesis-to-poser-cr2/). If DAZ would have provided something lke the "Genesis to Poser CR2" when Genesis was released, a lot of the negetivity would have been reduced. So we have "Good Idea - Genesis", "Bad Idea - alienating a large portion of your customers by not providing good support for using your new product in Poser".

But DAZ has had a history of being their own worst enemy. Obviously the new management has only enhanced these tendancies. The new web site is a prime example.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

Quote - I'd say DAZ's own bungles hurt them far more than Genesis ever could.

 

Yeah, but that's a problem that's difficult to seperate from the release of Gene and I think Gene has cause Daz a few bungles.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - It is not the companies that loose it is the people who refuse to learn new tools and new technique who loose.

There are better tools with better support.   That's the problem. 

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I was looking at the top selling products at the MarketPlace here and at RDNA and none of them are for Genesis (although some things, such as hair, is compatible). My cursory look does seem to indicate that Genesis hasn't taken off the way previous DAZ figures did. It didn't take long for Victoria 4 to bury Victoria 3, nor was it a long time for V3 to eclipse V2. It was only a few months before new commercial V3 content became almost nonexistent once V4 was out. Genesis has been out longer than that and still isn't doesn't appear to be widely supported outside of the DAZ store. It has to be hurting DAZ financially. Poser users, that normally have a feeding frenzy for new DAZ figures, weren't biting for Genesis because that figure is not compatible with Poser. Roughly half of the DAZ store is devoted to figure content. Since Poser/DAZ Studio are mostly used for pinup art, a disproportionate amount of purchases goes to figure content. Since Poser users haven't adopted the Genesis figures the way they did the DAZ 4th Generation figures, DAZ is losing money

People getting into posing software are generally going to start with DAZ Studio because it's free. It comes with Genesis and enough content to give a beginning 3D artist a place to start. If those beginning artists like the results they get using the software, they're eventually going to buy some figures, morphs, clothing, hair, and models. Initially, they'll start with the DAZ store, but they'll eventually branch out to other content markets. The more advanced those users get, the more likely they're going to search and find that there is a lot of excellent content outside of, as well as in, DAZ stores. The fact that Genesis isn't selling well here is an indication that those numbers are a lot smaller than the number of Poser users buying content.

As I said in the original post, Genesis is a great idea. If Smith-Micro had come up with it, people here would love it. Buy a clothing item for one figure and it works on every other figure in Genesis. Wardrobe Wizard only works on supported figures and the market primarily drives those figures to adult females. If PhilC doesn't think there's enough money to warrant the effort to add support for a new figure, WW cannot be used for that figure. If somebody wants to do a Planet of the Apes type image with a costumed gorilla, Genesis will accommodate that, but not WW because the time it takes to create the WW plug-in isn't worth the small number of expected sales. Genesis also means one texture fits all and one morph fits all (some may need tweaking, but the Genesis design simplifies the process). If a Genesis user wants to create a race of alien figures, Genesis makes the job a whole lot easier and that race will have access to all the clothing in the Genesis line. Until Poser does something similar, Poser is at a disadvantage. Considering that most Poser users are creating sexy images that have no marketable value outside of low-paying porn sites, that's not an issue for most Poser users. I haven't played around with Genesis figures, so I don't know how well the idea compares to the reality, but it's certainly a forward step in this niche software market. The problem isn't Genesis.

The problem was abandoning figure content for Poser. Figure content is where the money is. Locking out a large proportion of the buying market was a bad marketing decision. It was probably based on overly optimistic expectations that the market would shift to the better technology. It didn't. Instead of letting Genesis gradually shift Poser buyers over to DAZ Studio, DAZ took an aggressive all or nothing approach and seem to be far closer to the "nothing" side of the scale than the "all" side.

A more cautious approach would have been to release V5/M5 as Genesis figures with a promise that Poser versions would be out in a couple months so that they can optimize the meshes for use with Poser. It would be extra work, but the extra money brought in by Poser users should more than cover the conversion costs. After all, this has been a very profitable strategy all the way up to V4/M4. All the clothing, textures, and character morphs bought by Poser users would be compatible with Genesis because the Poser and Genesis meshes would be identical. The Genesis figures would have more flexibility than the Poser figures, but at least Poser users would have new figures that would presumably be a little better than the ones they have now.

When V6/M6 would roll out a few years later, Poser users would have bought a ton of content that works with Genesis as well as Poser. Poser users would have had a few years of seeing DAZ Studio users doing a whole lot more with that content than what can be done with Poser. DAZ Studio users would not have to repurchase all their V5/M5/Genesis content to work with V6/M6. Poser users would have to do that or run a separate program to convert the clothing to V6/M6 instead of having it work natively in DS without any extra work; run a separate program to convert textures; and be stuck not having another program to convert character morphs to the new figures. Poser users would eventually start wondering if they're backing the right software. DAZ should still put out a Poser version of V6/M6 and continue doing so until the additional sales stopped supporting the cost to make it worth the effort to convert the new figures for Poser. In the end, businesses are about making money and decisions that lose a lot of money aren't usually the best. DAZ is a content driven company--not a software company even though they've tried to enter that arena. To survive, DAZ has to produce content that people want to buy. Adopting a business strategy that does the reverse surprisingly isn't as beneficial as it might otherwise seem.

Oddly, DAZ is sticking to their guns and not releasing Poser versions of any of their new figures. That's a bit inexplicable in light of the fact that the overall figure market has not embraced Genesis. Any time DAZ feels like it, they can release a Poser version of V5/M5. It probably won't be as successful as it would have been had it been done earlier. There are clearly a lot of negative emotional attachments to DAZ abandoning Poser figure releases. A free Poser V5 with a big sale of Genesis content that works with the figure will go a long way to healing emotional wounds. There will no doubt be some folks that will be too upset to even download the free figure. All I can say is: "Calm down. DAZ doesn't love you. Smith-Micro doesn't love you. Microsoft doesn't love you. Apple doesn't love you. They all have one thing in common. They love your money." Don't get emotionally involved in software or other products because it only clouds one's judgments in making purchasing decisions.

At some point, DAZ has to publically confess their sins. Blatantly obvious mistakes don't get better with age. Obviously, the longer it takes to make an apology, the harder it gets to admit a mistake, and the harder it is for the public to accept. It's still better than continuing to ignore a problem. DAZ doesn't have to apologize for Genesis. They have to apologize for abandoning Poser users. There were probably good reasons for doing it. Without those reasons made public, there seems to be increasing ill will. DAZ has to acknowledge the website debacle. Not releasing Poser versions of V5/M5 was a bad marketing call. Unleashing an immature/incomplete website to the public was just plain dumb. The first time I encountered it, I
got the weekly freebie and couldn't download it for a week. I don't get too upset over free stuff, but there were a lot of people that paid for content they couldn't get. The forums were completely unavailable for a long time. The site still isn't as functional months later as the one it replaced. Somebody in DAZ management needs to eat some crow over this one. It's still better admitting what went wrong and moving on instead of ignoring the mistake. People make mistakes. It happens. Over time, apologies get accepted and forgiveness sets in. Nothing has happened that is so horrible or irreversible that it cannot be forgiven.

One thing I don't understand is why the DAZ store doesn't have more content for their Poser compatible figures by outside merchants. Looking at the New Releases showed only one pose pack for V4/M4 without anything for Genesis. The disparity between what the DAZ store is selling versus what everybody else is selling seems to point to either a mandate or massive incentives for third parties to create Genesis content. There would probably be a legal nondisclosure statement to prevent outside discussions of such things. Without any edicts from DAZ, one would expect that more third party content creators would be marketing Gen4 figure content in similar proportions to other stores. DAZ Original content may focus on Genesis, but other content creators in the store would normally produce content that they think will sell. If outside creators are being forced to produce content for the DAZ store that won't sell as well as what they could make elsewhere, the natural thing is going to be for them to seek other stores for their wares. I'm not paying enough attention to the market to know if that kind of exodus has happened.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds for DAZ. The company can stubbornly adhere to their current direction or do something different. Enough time has lapsed that some measure can be taken of their current approach. If the intent was to nudge Poser users to switch to DAZ Studio, the general consensus here indicates that's not happening. The funny thing is that DAZ is competing against DAZ. It's not even a fight with another company's figure. People are continuing to buy Victoria 4 products. Since DAZ doesn't seem to be releasing V4 content, Poser customers are patronizing other stores. A "buy this or shop somewhere else" approach is only benefitting other stores. It's hard to imagine that continuing to ignore Poser users for another year will be any more a winning strategy than it has to date.

When DAZ stopped producing figure content for Poser users, a lot of their Poser customers either spent less time browsing for content in DAZ stores or stopped altogether. More than one poster has said that the money they routinely spent at DAZ is money they're now spending at Renderosity. The online store that people browse in will be the store that they make purchases from. A Poser user browsing the Renderosity MarketPlace for V4 content is more likely to buy a prop they come across there than to take the time to search other stores for other versions of that prop. Some users will search other stores. Some will just make a spur-of-the-moment purchase. The store the person didn't go to didn't make any money.

As I've stated, I have no stake in this matter. I don't use Poser enough right now to be overly involved in marketplace squabbles. I was curious about the things I saw.

I was looking at the top selling products at the MarketPlace here and at RDNA and none of them are for Genesis (although some things, such as hair, is compatible). My cursory look does seem to indicate that Genesis hasn't taken off the way previous DAZ figures did. It didn't take long for Victoria 4 to bury Victoria 3, nor was it a long time for V3 to eclipse V2. It was only a few months before new commercial V3 content became almost nonexistent once V4 was out. Genesis has been out longer than that and still isn't doesn't appear to be widely supported outside of the DAZ store. It has to be hurting DAZ financially. Poser users, that normally have a feeding frenzy for new DAZ figures, weren't biting for Genesis because that figure is not compatible with Poser. Roughly half of the DAZ store is devoted to figure content. Since Poser/DAZ Studio are mostly used for pinup art, a disproportionate amount of purchases goes to figure content. Since Poser users haven't adopted the Genesis figures the way they did the DAZ 4th Generation figures, DAZ is losing money

 

People getting into posing software are generally going to start with DAZ Studio because it's free. It comes with Genesis and enough content to give a beginning 3D artist a place to start. If those beginning artists like the results they get using the software, they're eventually going to buy some figures, morphs, clothing, hair, and models. Initially, they'll start with the DAZ store, but they'll eventually branch out to other content markets. The more advanced those users get, the more likely they're going to search and find that there is a lot of excellent content outside of, as well as in, DAZ stores. The fact that Genesis isn't selling well here is an indication that those numbers are a lot smaller than the number of Poser users buying content.

 

As I said in the original post, Genesis is a great idea. If Smith-Micro had come up with it, people here would love it. Buy a clothing item for one figure and it works on every other figure in Genesis. Wardrobe Wizard only works on supported figures and the market primarily drives those figures to adult females. If PhilC doesn't think there's enough money to warrant the effort to add support for a new figure, WW cannot be used for that figure. If somebody wants to do a Planet of the Apes type image with a costumed gorilla, Genesis will accommodate that, but not WW because the time it takes to create the WW plug-in isn't worth the small number of expected sales. Genesis also means one texture fits all and one morph fits all (some may need tweaking, but the Genesis design simplifies the process). If a Genesis user wants to create a race of alien figures, Genesis makes the job a whole lot easier and that race will have access to all the clothing in the Genesis line. Until Poser does something similar, Poser is at a disadvantage. Considering that most Poser users are creating sexy images that have no marketable value outside of low-paying porn sites, that's not an issue for most Poser users. I haven't played around with Genesis figures, so I don't know how well the idea compares to the reality, but it's certainly a forward step in this niche software market. The problem isn't Genesis.

 

The problem was abandoning figure content for Poser. Figure content is where the money is. Locking out a large proportion of the buying market was a bad marketing decision. It was probably based on overly optimistic expectations that the market would shift to the better technology. It didn't. Instead of letting Genesis gradually shift Poser buyers over to DAZ Studio, DAZ took an aggressive all or nothing approach and seem to be far closer to the "nothing" side of the scale than the "all" side.

 

A more cautious approach would have been to release V5/M5 as Genesis figures with a promise that Poser versions would be out in a couple months so that they can optimize the meshes for use with Poser. It would be extra work, but the extra money brought in by Poser users should more than cover the conversion costs. After all, this has been a very profitable strategy all the way up to V4/M4. All the clothing, textures, and character morphs bought by Poser users would be compatible with Genesis because the Poser and Genesis meshes would be identical. The Genesis figures would have more flexibility than the Poser figures, but at least Poser users would have new figures that would presumably be a little better than the ones they have now.

 

When V6/M6 would roll out a few years later, Poser users would have bought a ton of content that works with Genesis as well as Poser. Poser users would have had a few years of seeing DAZ Studio users doing a whole lot more with that content than what can be done with Poser. DAZ Studio users would not have to repurchase all their V5/M5/Genesis content to work with V6/M6. Poser users would have to do that or run a separate program to convert the clothing to V6/M6 instead of having it work natively in DS without any extra work; run a separate program to convert textures; and be stuck not having another program to convert character morphs to the new figures. Poser users would eventually start wondering if they're backing the right software. DAZ should still put out a Poser version of V6/M6 and continue doing so until the additional sales stopped supporting the cost to make it worth the effort to convert the new figures for Poser. In the end, businesses are about making money and decisions that lose a lot of money aren't usually the best. DAZ is a content driven company--not a software company even though they've tried to enter that arena. To survive, DAZ has to produce content that people want to buy. Adopting a business strategy that does the reverse surprisingly isn't as beneficial as it might otherwise seem.

 

Oddly, DAZ is sticking to their guns and not releasing Poser versions of any of their new figures. That's a bit inexplicable in light of the fact that the overall figure market has not embraced Genesis. Any time DAZ feels like it, they can release a Poser version of V5/M5. It probably won't be as successful as it would have been had it been done earlier. There are clearly a lot of negative emotional attachments to DAZ abandoning Poser figure releases. A free Poser V5 with a big sale of Genesis content that works with the figure will go a long way to healing emotional wounds. There will no doubt be some folks that will be too upset to even download the free figure. All I can say is: "Calm down. DAZ doesn't love you. Smith-Micro doesn't love you. Microsoft doesn't love you. Apple doesn't love you. They all have one thing in common. They love your money." Don't get emotionally involved in software or other products because it only clouds one's judgments in making purchasing decisions.

 

At some point, DAZ has to publically confess their sins. Blatantly obvious mistakes don't get better with age. Obviously, the longer it takes to make an apology, the harder it gets to admit a mistake, and the harder it is for the public to accept. It's still better than continuing to ignore a problem. DAZ doesn't have to apologize for Genesis. They have to apologize for abandoning Poser users. There were probably good reasons for doing it. Without those reasons made public, there seems to be increasing ill will. DAZ has to acknowledge the website debacle. Not releasing Poser versions of V5/M5 was a bad marketing call. Unleashing an immature/incomplete website to the public was just plain dumb. The first time I encountered it, I

got the weekly freebie and couldn't download it for a week. I don't get too upset over free stuff, but there were a lot of people that paid for content they couldn't get. The forums were completely unavailable for a long time. The site still isn't as functional months later as the one it replaced. Somebody in DAZ management needs to eat some crow over this one. It's still better admitting what went wrong and moving on instead of ignoring the mistake. People make mistakes. It happens. Over time, apologies get accepted and forgiveness sets in. Nothing has happened that is so horrible or irreversible that it cannot be forgiven.

 

One thing I don't understand is why the DAZ store doesn't have more content for their Poser compatible figures by outside merchants. Looking at the New Releases showed only one pose pack for V4/M4 without anything for Genesis. The disparity between what the DAZ store is selling versus what everybody else is selling seems to point to either a mandate or massive incentives for third parties to create Genesis content. There would probably be a legal nondisclosure statement to prevent outside discussions of such things. Without any edicts from DAZ, one would expect that more third party content creators would be marketing Gen4 figure content in similar proportions to other stores. DAZ Original content may focus on Genesis, but other content creators in the store would normally produce content that they think will sell. If outside creators are being forced to produce content for the DAZ store that won't sell as well as what they could make elsewhere, the natural thing is going to be for them to seek other stores for their wares. I'm not paying enough attention to the market to know if that kind of exodus has happened.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds for DAZ. The company can stubbornly adhere to their current direction or do something different. Enough time has lapsed that some measure can be taken of their current approach. If the intent was to nudge Poser users to switch to DAZ Studio, the general consensus here indicates that's not happening. The funny thing is that DAZ is competing against DAZ. It's not even a fight with another company's figure. People are continuing to buy Victoria 4 products. Since DAZ doesn't seem to be releasing V4 content, Poser customers are patronizing other stores. A "buy this or shop somewhere else" approach is only benefitting other stores. It's hard to imagine that continuing to ignore Poser users for another year will be any more a winning strategy than it has to date.

 

When DAZ stopped producing figure content for Poser users, a lot of their Poser customers either spent less time browsing for content in DAZ stores or stopped altogether. More than one poster has said that the money they routinely spent at DAZ is money they're now spending at Renderosity. The online store that people browse in will be the store that they make purchases from. A Poser user browsing the Renderosity MarketPlace for V4 content is more likely to buy a prop they come across there than to take the time to search other stores for other versions of that prop. Some users will search other stores. Some will just make a spur-of-the-moment purchase. The store the person didn't go to didn't make any money.

 

As I've stated, I have no stake in this matter. I don't use Poser enough right now to be overly involved in marketplace squabbles. I was curious about the things I saw.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

"Dunning-Kruger effect"

I lernt something today. Thanks!

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

contrary to what some keep saying, Genesis is NOT compatible with Poser.

1. DS4 HAS to be installed to even get at the figure.

2. to get it INTO  Poser you have to jump through several hoops.

3. even when you have done that, the resulting .cr2 is not fully functional.

4. clothing does not work in Poser, unless it is heavily modified using DS4 tools.

5. even then, it is a bit hit and miss whether it will function correctly.

6. hair also has to be heavily modified with DS tools to even get it to conform to Genesis in Pose

7. rigging of Genesis, its clothing and the hair likely require joints etc to be tweaked with Poser's own tools after importing.

to sum it up, you have to be well versed with DS rigging tools and the rigging tools in Poser,  just to use a crippled version of Genesis in Poser.

so what is the point?

to get better bends?

there are weightmapped figures available to use in Poser that do bend much better than the gen3/gen 4 figures we are used to.

they are not 'perfect' but then neither is Genesis. otherwise why would sets of 'fix morphs' be appearing in store for it?

 

 

Quote - At some point, DAZ has to publically confess their sins. Blatantly obvious mistakes don't get better with age. Obviously, the longer it takes to make an apology, the harder it gets to admit a mistake, and the harder it is for the public to accept. It's still better than continuing to ignore a problem.

People make mistakes. It happens. Over time, apologies get accepted and forgiveness sets in. Nothing has happened that is so horrible or irreversible that it cannot be forgiven.

 

If you are waiting for an apology then you will have a long time to wait. I doubt Daz ever thinks it makes mistakes.

One of the PAs has said here that people don't matter to Daz. Lots of people have said that only money matters and as far as I can see that is true of most businesses except most businesses do try to make out that their customers are important to them. For a super example of a customer focused company look at Luxology.

I do not think Genesis will kill Daz but it will add a little more pain to the pain caused by, IMO, bad decisions and treating their customers with contempt. Only time will tell what ultimately happens.

Quote - "Dunning-Kruger effect"

I lernt something today. Thanks!

 

It explains a lot doesn't it.

Quote - most businesses do try to make out that their customers are important to them.

Whenever I'm on hold by a company's customer support line for half an hour, constantly hearing the recorded line to please hold because my business is important to them, I really do feel important ;)

Sorry about the double pasted post. Pasting from Word resulted in triple spacing, so I pasted into NotePad, copied that and pasted over the selected text here in the text box and didn't know that it pushed it down instead of replacing it. I found the mistake too late to edit it myself and only a mod can clean it up now.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

Quote - Whenever I'm on hold by a company's customer support line for half an hour, constantly hearing the recorded line to please hold because my business is important to them, I really do feel important ;)

LOL... but far better than to be told if you hang up and never buy from them again they won't lose any sleep. LOL

I think Genesis is a great concept. However, I can't use it because in order to use it I'd have to use DS and DS will not work in the 3D apps I use because DS files can't be read by my programs. For me that is a HUGE rub and a sad one because the ides of having one figure that can be many things is a great idea I just don't think DAZ even has the concept of what they have and how to make it work its full potential for them.

I too feel DAZ is hurting Daz I have two images in my head when it comes to DAZ and the leadership there. One of a bunch of hipsters sitting around with their ipads, DAZ coffee cups throwing darts at board and what the dart lands on is agreed upon as being  a great idea. And if the customers don't like it well too bad we are awesome. The other is a group of individuals that are not sure what to do, have great ideas, but do not have the personnel to make the exceptional ideas pop. It's a trial and error kind of a way of going about things.

Time will only tell what will come of it. There are a lot of factors at play here one large one being the world economy. Daz was once a very customer focused company that has slid down quite a bit. Genesis is great and a lot of people like it but it is still a very small percentage and you have to admit Genesis, at the moment, is very limited but I think that is the softare that supports it not the product itself.

My Facebook Page

There are already a lot of really good and comprehensive posts that cover the issues with Daz's new figure and marketing approach, so I will not attempt to restate those problems.

For myself, I did give Genesis a go when DS4 gave away their software for free. I purchased some of the products for this new figure and tried out some renders. While the renders were good, they took an extreemly long time to complete. I can do a render on poser with v4 or GNDA on Poser with more figures in the scene and using SSS on the base figure and get results that I like much more in a matter of minutes, rather than a matter of hours. Limiting Genesis to their program forces users to use their program. I for one am a hobbyist and maybe have only 3 or 4 hours every week that I can spare for this hobby. Using DS4 would mean that It would take me weeks to have a completed scene that I could have done in a single session on Poser. It is nothing personal to Daz, but I do feel like they foolishly cut off their customer base out of some idea of converting users to thier software. I do not like to be strongarmed or pushed by any company for which I am a paying customer. The burden is on them to do what the customer wants, not to try to force the customer to do what they want them to do.

I calculated my spending at Daz. I used to spend about a thousand a year there. Now I distribute my money elswhere in the 3D market. I cannot help but think if there are a lot of other people out there who have done the same, it must be impacting Daz.  My PC will run out this December. I will not renew and in fact I have not used my store voucher in months. I used to look at Daz a couple of times a week. Now I look at Rendo and RDNA as well as other content sites a lot more frequently than I used to. The bulk of my spending is now at Renderosity. Nothing personal, but I am the customer, it is up to the company to try and get me to spend my money with them. If I feel like they are not meeting my needs then I move on and that is what I have done with Daz.

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

Quote - Hmmm... Looks like it might be time for some cat photos, but this is interesting...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/04/penis-snake-photos-amazon-brazil-atretochoana-eiselti_n_1742088.html

 

Do I need a Nudity flag for a link to a naked snake?

LOL!!! Much better then a cat at this particular moment!

Good One! ;)

~A~

Is there water in your future or is it being shipped away to be resold to you?
Water, the ultimate weapon...
www.futurefantasydesign.com

Quote -

As I said in the original post, Genesis is a great idea. If Smith-Micro had come up with it, people here would love it....

 

I like it, and I'd love it if it could be natively loaded in Poser.  The issue with Genesis clothing in Poser is that the animated joint centers aren't superconforming.  I've been hoping this would be fixed in each service pack, but it hasn't yet.  Unnfortunately Poser9/PP2012 release timing was governed in large part by SM's financial situation (that's why they did the presale coupon purchase thing so those revenues wouild be in Q3 2011), so SM had to freeze things up with Poser's features before Genesis was finalized...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Daz is getting too pricey for my liking, I dont need to fill my runtimes with more and more fantasy. Gene is boring to use. I prefer V4/M4 as I have much invested in those figures, the problem is their website is unbareable to navigate, the forums are dead because they were reset and dumped all those useful threads and people are no longer posting. Sad they did it that way. They are getting to overthetop for me. Their new site is nothing but an eyesore. I stopped going there completely after being a long time user of eight years. Dead to me now. Thats why traffic is down. People like me, left.

In my case, I stopped buying Poser content because my interests shifted to other things. That's just my nature. I get hot and heavy into a project, get a certain achievement out of it and move onto other areas to eventually go back to other things I enjoyed later. I never totally lose interest in something, so I'll still grab a DAZ weekly freebie, check Poser stores and look in forums every now and then, but not with the regular frequency I did when I was more absorbed with the software.

I was a member of the Platinum Club and dropped out when they stopped including a $30 voucher that helped offset the membership cost. I'd been thinking of dropping out a couple years before, but usually found enough stuff in the membership package and voucher to make it worth keeping. The voucher went away and so did my membership. Renewing an annual membership was $30 cheaper than starting a fresh subscription again. That was intended as a barrier to dropping the membership.

I found the higher start fresh club fee became a barrier to get back in. The next year, the $30 voucher was back. If I'm paying $30 more to rejoin, what's the point? Come to think of it, why should I want to pay extra for DAZ content by not being a member? That stopped me from even buying sale items because there was always the nagging thought that I could get it cheaper. DAZ saved a little money from me downloading a few models the $30 voucher would let me get and lost a few thousand dollars in purchases since I stopped being a member. I have no hard feelings over any of this. It mostly gave me a reason to start doing something I'd been telling myself to do for a while--which is to use the models I've bought and only buy something new I absolutely need at full price. The savings from sales for content I'll probably never use would never justify the cost of buying them.

I'm not a fan of club membership schemes since the club fees are what allow a club to lower prices. In some ways, it's a bit of a shell game because customers tend to forget that they helped subsidize the lower prices. I haven't joined any of my area's warehouse clubs in the US, but BJs sends me a trial membership a couple times a year that I'd use for a couple months. The last time I went, they recognized me and, even though the company sent me another trial, they wouldn't honor it because I'm only allowed one trial. Whatever. I did some searches on the net to see if I could match their prices for the items I'd buy during the trial and found that Amazon has a Subscribe & Save grocery program that saved me 10% or more on most of them and delivers them to my door on a flexible schedule. So, take that BJs! There's a certain satisfaction when a business pushes you to find an alternative and you find a better one. Besides, the company needs to change their name because they sound like a porn category.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

It's normal for a company that's very good and successful at one thing to attempt to be successful at others in order to grow its business. This involves taking risks, and the risk-assessment process needs the company to be brutally honest about its own strengths and weaknesses.

DAZ aren't the first company to allow over-confidence (some would say arrogance) into that process and come face-to-face with commercial reality a short time later.

Genesis is a brilliant piece of work. The trouble is that a big chunk of the potential customer base can't spend money on it because they use Poser, and - for whatever reason - will not switch to Daz Studio. Even if it's free. And the workarounds to get Genesis into Poser are simply not worth the effort.

This must be hurting DAZ, but it's probably not killing them.

In the next few days we should see SR3 for the latest version of Poser which is rumoured to support single-axis scaling. Perhaps, a little further off, there will be support for some version of Catmull-Clarke subdivision, but this will be on Smith Micro's terms, as it should be.

If / when that happens, we might see a Poser-optimised Genesis. I hope DAZ can hang on long enough to make it happen.

---

Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

"latest version of Poser...will support support single-axis scaling.."

wow, exact what I have been waiting for so long! ;)

Every time Poser come out with a new functionality Daz comes with ten new.

After the gigantus effort of single-axis scaling, perhaps the team will find time to remove all dead weight that is lying around? Like "Animation Sets?

I know which company is young and forward and boisterous and which that is old and tired.

 

 

 

and which team actively engage with the users of the software?

SMITH MICRO'S POSER DEVELOPMENT TEAM!!!!!!!!!!

may i remind you that this is the POSER forum? not the daz studio forum?

a forum is supplied for those who use/wish to use Daz Studio, and that is not this one.

this one is for Poser users.

Hmm.... The DAZ website is down...

 

...SM did say they would be rolling out a new Poser website this week...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

3anson,

I am using both Daz and Poser and C4D too. I might look into Carrara. Unlike some I am interested in all programs that can handls poser-files.I don't want to be mastered by software but have an agenda of what I want to do and am looking for solutions for it. So you want to ban me from the Poser forum? Interesting. It put a new meaning to the word inbreeding.

 

 

One thing I don't understand is why the DAZ store doesn't have more content for their Poser compatible figures by outside merchants. Looking at the New Releases showed only one pose pack for V4/M4 without anything for Genesis. The disparity between what the DAZ store is selling versus what everybody else is selling seems to point to either a mandate or massive incentives for third parties to create Genesis content. There would probably be a legal nondisclosure statement to prevent outside discussions of such things. Without any edicts from DAZ, one would expect that more third party content creators would be marketing Gen4 figure content in similar proportions to other stores. DAZ Original content may focus on Genesis, but other content creators in the store would normally produce content that they think will sell. If outside creators are being forced to produce content for the DAZ store that won't sell as well as what they could make elsewhere, the natural thing is going to be for them to seek other stores for their wares. I'm not paying enough attention to the market to know if that kind of exodus has happened.

 

Ok...this one was just funny.

The idea that DAZ can "force" pa's to make content for one or another figure LOL

PA's are a stubborn and head strong bunch, can't really force us one way or another.

Maybe instead of the paranoid conspiracy idea of why there is so much genesis content being offered at DAZ is simply because it is pretty easy to create for once you have figured out how to do so...and it sells well enough to continue developing for it. The m4/v4 market is saturated with products, there really is not much new and interesting that can be done for them without repeating things already in the market. But genesis is a new start, and with it, the products that get made can be used on many more figure shapes than could ever be used before, so the things made wont get out of date near as fast as anything made before.

The reason other stores are only begining to see some genesis stuff is also very simple. It takes a while for content creators to learn a new system for making things...and many content creators flatly refuse to take the time to learn new stuff, even moreso than content users have a tough time trying to use new programs in place of the old one they are so used to.

Change is hard...but it is also good.

 

Quote - "Dunning-Kruger effect"

I lernt something today. Thanks!

He he... I learned something too.

I'd falsely assumed that everyone else knew about the Dunning-Kruger effect already.

Quote - > Quote - "Dunning-Kruger effect"

I lernt something today. Thanks!

He he... I learned something too.

I'd falsely assumed that everyone else knew about the Dunning-Kruger effect already.

Perhaps we were just in denial... :lol:

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

If there was to be a "kill".
It will be filed as suicide by management.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - 3anson,

I am using both Daz and Poser and C4D too. I might look into Carrara. Unlike some I am interested in all programs that can handls poser-files.I don't want to be mastered by software but have an agenda of what I want to do and am looking for solutions for it. So you want to ban me from the Poser forum? Interesting. It put a new meaning to the word inbreeding.

 

However, since you so clearly despise Poser, why are you here? Why do you use it?

Seriously, what reason do you come here unless just to irritate and annoy Poser users by repeatedly telling them how stupid, out of date, and useless they are?

Is it just that you need to tout your superiority to continue to FEEL superior?

 

As of this post, the trolling is to stop.

If you do not want to address what the original poster was asking, don't respond. There will be no more discussions of Poser vs Daz4 in this thread. Some members cannot stay away from making inflamatory remarks, and it spoils the thread for the rest.

I really think the thread has run its course. The next nasty comment from either side locks it.

Quote - I really think the thread has run its course. The next nasty comment from either side locks it.

 

The problem is that it is a tactic that some use to end discussions...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

basicwiz,

May I ask, it is I who is trolling in your opinion? Do you want 5 pages bashing of Daz with no one defending them?

?

 

 

 

 

 

You are right WandW.

I guess I'm going to start deleting the messages. That lets the discussion continue without the trolling.

Good call.

Quote - > Quote - I really think the thread has run its course. The next nasty comment from either side locks it.

 

The problem is that it is a tactic that some use to end discussions...

Yep, it is sad that this is used by the trolls time after time when threads don't go there way.

Edit to add: I think that is a better idea, basicwiz.

shoo. The next post didnt lock the thread lol...Hooray

My Renderosity Store

vintorix...

I want people to get off the Daz4 vs Poser bandwagon and discuss what the OP asked. The superiority of one program or the other really does not enter into the net effect that Genesis is having on the marketplaces.

If you have evidence or insight into what is going on, please present it. If you cannot contribute to that discussion, I ask that you leave it alone.

I'm getting 'way too many complaints in my mailbox about this to let it go on much longer. If you wish to continue this discussion, let's take it to sitemail.

"I'm getting 'way too many complaints in my mailbox about this to let it go on much longer."

 

Very well. Let the Daz bashing continue then. I will not interfere.

 

 

 

Hopefully this isn't too far afield; I made a venture to the Forum, and discovered that DAZ is apparently no longer including readme files in their new content products; they now have to be viewed online... 

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/4957/

I'm..speechless...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Getting back on topic.

Even if the next version of the exporter and the next Poser sr will fix the problem with importing genesis in Poser, I doubt it will have much impact on the sales of genesis items. The procedure to get all the supporting items (poses, material files, props, etc) into Poser is just too much work. They are all in studio format and you can either apply them each time in DS4 when you need to add or change something or go through the very tedious job of exporting file by file and producing thumbnails for them.

So DAZ has to think of something else to get some of their Poser customers back. Hints are being dropped that something is in the works, but I have read anything concrete yet

 

Quote - > Quote - "Dunning-Kruger effect"

I lernt something today. Thanks!

He he... I learned something too.

I'd falsely assumed that everyone else knew about the Dunning-Kruger effect already.

Which is, in itself, a perfect example of it.

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PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - Hopefully this isn't too far afield; I made a venture to the Forum, and discovered that DAZ is apparently no longer including readme files in their new content products; they now have to be viewed online... 

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/4957/

I'm..speechless...

Yes, you need to be online to read the readme file (which is the only place which mentions where the files are installed). Providing a text file is the least which they should be doing

 

Yes, Daz has made some pretty strange decisions lately, but to not include a simple "Read Me" file with a product has got to be the worse one yet.  Isn't this the file that tells you what is included in the product (geometry, library/props etc.), also the part that tells you that you cannot distribute the item or the part about commercial use vs non-commercial use?

I would think that someone installing the item that is new to both Poser or DS would want to read where the product is being installed, like in figures, or props, or in hair instead of figures.  Things like that.  What happens in a few years when a friend says "Oh, really nice outfit on her, where did you get it?".  The person looks in their runtime and does not find a read me, says "I haven't the slightest idea where it came from, here is a copy".  I keep my purchased content backup seperate from my freebie content backup, but I am sure not everyone does that.

They need to seriously re-think that decision.

Quote - "I'm getting 'way too many complaints in my mailbox about this to let it go on much longer."

Very well. Let the Daz bashing continue then. I will not interfere.

Daz-bashing is not the same thing as questioning the wisdom of some of their recent decisions. The point is that a lot of their customers feel, rightly or wrongly, that they can't do business with them any more, or at least not as much as they used to.

Even if all the criticisms levelled at DAZ here and earlier threads were without foundation, the fact that the perception exists at all means that something's gone wrong.

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Windows 10 x64 Pro - Intel Xeon E5450 @ 3.00GHz (x2)

PoserPro 11 - Units: Metres

Adobe CC 2017

Quote - Which is fine if it helps you sleep at night....just don't kid yourself that the companies lose sleep over it.

I know rebok isn't losing sleep over me not buying shoes from them LOL

Which is why company boycotts never work. Just look at how Fruit of the Loom didn't reopen its plant in Honduras--which it closed after it unionized--due to US and British colleges severing contracts they had with the company due to student pressure.

Oh, wait, sorry, they did in fact re-open the plant, hire all the workers back, compensate them, and gave them union rights as a result of the boycott. Silly me for getting that backward.

Any company that thinks it can survive without customers or continually recruit new customers leaving a wake of unhappy ones in its trail is going to have a very hard time to succeed. :(

Some interesting facts:

 - 68% of customer defection takes place because customers feel poorly treated. Source: TARP

 - It can cost five times more to buy new customers than retain existing ones. Source: TARP

• It takes 12 positive service incidents to make up for 1 negative incident. Source: Lee Resource Inc

• The average "wronged customer" will tell 8-l6 people about it. Over 20% will tell more than 20. Source: Lee Resource Inc (I wonder how much this increases with the internet)

• 91% of unhappy customers will not willingly do business with you again. Source: Lee Resource Inc

• 70% of complaining customers will do business with you again if you resolve the complaint in their favour. Source: Lee Resource Inc

• 95% of complaining customers will do business with you again if you resolve the complaint instantly. Source: Lee Resource Inc

• Reducing customer defections can boost profits by 25-85%. In 73% of cases, the organization made no attempt to persuade dissatisfied customers to stay; even though 35% said that a simple apology would have prevented them from moving to the competition. Source: NOP

• Happy customers who have their problems resolved will tell 4-6 people about their positive experience. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

• It costs five to six times as much to get a new (first time) customer as it does to keep a current one. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

• Customer loyalty can be worth up to 10 times as much as a single purchase. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

• A typical business hears from only about 4% of its dissatisfied customers. 96% just go away and 91% will never come back. Source: “Understanding Customers” by Ruby Newell-Legner

Threads like this do more harm to Poser than they do to DAZ, because they make the Poser community looks like a bunch of spoiled brats who are jealous of other peoples toys.

You don't see these type of threads in the DAZ forums.

Quote - Threads like this do more harm to Poser than they do to DAZ, because they make the Poser community looks like a bunch of spoiled brats who are jealous of other peoples toys.

You don't see these type of threads in the DAZ forums.

You must be blind. Only difference is that they are deleted as soon as they are noticed

Quote - You don't see these type of threads in the DAZ forums.

Not quite true; here the shoe is on the other hand...

http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=189930

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

"You must be blind. Only difference is that they are deleted as soon as they are noticed"

 

No, you do not see threads in the DAZ forums attacking Smith Micro's business practices and software, nor do you see threads filled with speculation about how many customers Smith Micro/Renderosity/any Poser-focused website must be losing.

What was even the point of this thread? To speculate how Genesis (a figure very few of you here can or wish to use) might be hurting DAZ (a company that many here have turned away from because you say they're not supporting Poser well enough now)? If anything, this should have been in the DAZ Studio forum.

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Quote - "You must be blind. Only difference is that they are deleted as soon as they are noticed"

 

No, you do not see threads in the DAZ forums attacking Smith Micro's business practices and software, nor do you see threads filled with speculation about how many customers Smith Micro/Renderosity/any Poser-focused website must be losing.

Oh yes, plenty of threads attacking SM's business practices and poser. Just ask the moderators. They delete both sides - those attacking DAZ and those attacking SM or Poser

 

Quote - What was even the point of this thread? To speculate how Genesis (a figure very few of you here can or wish to use) might be hurting DAZ (a company that many here have turned away from because you say they're not supporting Poser well enough now)? If anything, this should have been in the DAZ Studio forum.

Perhaps you should read the thread; I use Genesis in Poser and would like to be able to use it more.  I, and some of the others others who have posted here are still members of the Platinum Club, but are disappointed with DAZ' direction and avoidable misteps as of late...

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The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home

Well said there Ian, it's that minority of professional whiners that's ruining it for everyone else, not what a stores forum policy is. All it achieves is to putting off the 90% of good people who want to enjoy our fine hobby. Even freebies ain't immune from complaints either. Which sometimes makes me think if someone is gonna attack you when you give them a gift, then why bother giving stuff away. Sometimes the only reason I keep doing it is because I think the decent folks shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few idiots.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

This has gone on long enough - locking thread.