you know. I know why I don't use poser that much anymore.

cos for me, it's crippled

* I can load, rig, I can use the cloth room and the hair room...* but I can't texture. that room is locked off from me..

oh I can use the mat room to apply bitmaps. but to do anything more , you need to be a programmer or have a PHD or to use someonelses work, something that is a personal no no.

so.. whats the point in using poser for a crap job, when in other apps I can just go "metal, steel, this map with it" and hit render....? where I don't need to program the texture from base units using a programming language, I can just do it?

*I'm spending more and more time in Sketchup now. I've not started Poser in a month. rendered in poser.. I think that was 2 months ago.. something with textures on it.. over six months ago.

Khai - I have that script working in Poser. But it's just not ready for commercial use.

In a window you select one or more materials from the current prop/figure.

A checkbox enabled implies you're selecting those same on any other props or figures that look similar. For example, multiple copies of the same prop chair.

You drag an image into this window. It applies the image to the shaders that are there, without messing them up.

You drag a material (mt5 or mc6) into this window. it applies the shader to the images that are there, without messing them up.

There's also a checkbox to say that when you drag a mat file, you want it to blow away the whole target - use what's in the mat file. This still helps with multiple objects a ton.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Oh - I'm also making it have pre-defined groups of materials. These are virtual selections you can make. For example, when you select a V4 figure, it automatically offers "skin" and "nails" as auto-selection groups so you can just drag a skin shader onto "Skin" and it goes to all the right places without you doing anything.

These groups will be editable by you.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

erm no... BB? thats not what I said.

ok. lets see here. I can apply bitmaps. no problems. but I want to make it steel? well I need to use one of YOUR shaders or program one.

I can't program one. I can't program, period. I've tried many times to learn, I just can't do it.

using yours is out. it's not my work.

*your script sounds good.. but it's not what I was talking about. thats YOUR work. not mine.

Keep us updated on that BB. I'm interested..lol.

Laurie

(the quintessential material room dummy)

Khai - when in other apps you go "metal steel" that's not your work either. I don't understand.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

That's twice in one day I've heard that there's something terrible about 3rd party material presets. I don't get it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I think he means he doesn't know how to set up a decent shader for an item he may want to sell or give away ;) Doesn't understand the material room at all.

Edit: there's nothing terrible, just something a person can't use on something they make to give out ;).

Laurie

forget it. the thread is now hijacked. carry on with your advert.

Are you referring to not being allowed to distribute my shaders? You mean you want merchant resource shaders? I've been thinking about that. It's another plugin I have in the works. It would be a tool you use to generate materials, which you can redistribute if you like. Not the tool, the materials it makes.

It would be a simple GUI and the resulting materials would not have all the node gizmos I usually provide. Thus - it would work fine to texture your prop, but not so much be an infinite supply of variations for whoever buys your prop.

X-Post: Advert? Man you're a cynical fuck. Thought you'd be interested in a solution to your problem. I guess you just want ears to hear you. Got cheese?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - using yours is out. it's not my work.

If you are using the preset in Sketchup, that's someone else's work too; or am I missing something?

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forget it. the point is lost. I am not using presets sigh

seems I can't speak english on this.

"Man you're a cynical fuck. Thought you'd be interested in a solution to your problem. I guess you just want ears to hear you. Got cheese?"

you missed the point entirely. let put it plainly. I want to do it. not have you or anyone else do it. I want to be able to learn to do it. you stepped in with a script that could do it thats for sale. that's not what I was saying I wanted at all.

I don't want to buy the fish. I want to fish.

You're right, I missed the point. And even now I still can't reconcile what your original post was about, versus what you're saying now.

You want to be able to make a shader? And you can't? So Poser is crippled? You said it's crippled. It's crippled because you want to make shaders but instead you go to sketchup and choose presets?

"where I don't need to program the texture from base units using a programming language, I can just do it?"

You want to do it in Poser, but not with presets? What does that mean? You're not doing it in sketchup.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I'm sorry, I don't get exactly what you're saying. Nowadays, I don't render anything that doesn't have something in it that BB has graciously given to the Poser community. Anything he has publically published can be used for freestuff items. I'm with Laurie, I know enough about Poser's material room to get around but I do not have the math skills that BB has. He can create in Poser shaders that have realworld properties, I cannot do that, hence I am ever so grateful to download a shader when he publishes one.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Khai, is it fair to say you'd like some tutorials on how to get the best out of nodes?

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"Crippled" for HIM. Said it in the first sentence...lol

Edit: Ok, so it was the second sentence ;)

Laurie

hang on hang on

let me try and sort this out.

it's crippled to ME. as in, the material room is something I can't use. lacking the materials, I've not done much with poser in sometime.

maybe someone can help me out here ... I'm trying to explain here ok?

having someone elses work in mine is something I try to avoid. eg I wanted a desk, so I picked up tools, learnt woodwork and made one. the earphone socket on my walkman broke, so I learnt to repair circuits. I wanted to show off my ideas so I learnt to model.

right now, I can't texture. I can't learnt cos frankly, and this is a real admission, I can't even get a column of figures to add up the same twice. program a shader? I might as well move to the moon.hey, build you a door, a brick wall, a computer, plumb your house, even change a tire - mainly with no teaching, I just picked it up as I went along, no problems, thats simple. I can see how that works and I can just do it. (and it's to code.. I do good solid work)

in other apps, I can mix colors and effects such as simple built in metal shaders etc. can't do that in poser, the mat room does not allow it. it's program from scratch or baby talk. theres no middle ground.

to use an anology, I walk into a paint shop and ask for a tube of paint. they hand me one, I can then mix that how I want.

in poser, I ask for a tube of paint. I'm handed the keys to a chemical plant. thats it. find your own way. and once you've done that, then you can mix it...and get on with it. oh wait, you still have to mix the other paints to do that...

I can't mix my paint up in poser. I have to rely on others and thats alien to me. so. right now, posers losing it's appeal to me.

I was trying to just tell anyone why I'm basically out of it now. not try and start any fights.

oh I missed the really evil part.

*I can see how the shaders work in general. I can follow them. I just don't know how they work.. I don't have the basic math to know what they symbols mean... but I follow the gist if thats the right word

Pardon, I carefully re-read your post. You are a 'needs to be all my own work' kind of person? I can relate to a degree because I am a render purist myself. I try to produce works in Poser that I do not need to post work. But if an elbow is messed up, it just has to be fixed in post. When it comes to shaders, even in Sketchup, you are using the program's internal material preset with the addition of the texture you added. Maybe my opinion, but these days to get 'all my own work' in 3d, you'd have to build the modeling program yourself because when you use any 3d program you are using someone's base technology to begin making shader sets. I guess it depends on how far in a purist way you wish to go.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

No Liz...it's not THAT complicated...lol

He just doesn't understand what the nodes are doing or how to string them together. I know cause that's where I'm at ;). If you sell something you can add your node setup along with it or you'd have to tell ppl to just add the textures themselves...lol. Wouldn't go over too well I'd imagine ;). For my own part, I understand some things a little better after BB helped me with the gem shaders. But I'm far from understanding everything or how to set them up. Now I can pretty well set up a gem shader..but there's everything else...lol.

Laurie

I never ever said I wanted to go that far latexluv. ever. I just wanted to make my own things with the tools I have. please to avoid fights, don't put words in my mouth here, I never wanted that in the first place.

I'm not sure why you draw a distinction between BB suggested script and, for example, a steel material built into the program.... How is using BBs or anyone elses pre-defined preset different fromusing the programs internally pre defined preset?

Quote - erm no... BB? thats not what I said.

ok. lets see here. I can apply bitmaps. no problems. but I want to make it steel? well I need to use one of YOUR shaders or program one.

I can't program one. I can't program, period. I've tried many times to learn, I just can't do it.

using yours is out. it's not my work.

*your script sounds good.. but it's not what I was talking about. thats YOUR work. not mine.

meatsim before we carry on, please read the rest of the posts. we'll avoid fights.

I'm not sure why ppl have latched onto this preset thing. it's not what I was talking about from the start here. can we please drop it?

The point is being missed. He wants to KNOW how it works for his own work because he knows how everything else works in Poser but that. Am I right? That's the one thing he has no inkling of. He would like to know how to use it ;)

I'm like that as well. I want to know WHY it's doing something so that I have a firm understanding. There's just not much more to it than that.

Laurie

The way I see it 3D is a highly collaborative artform.

I totally celebrate that fact... anyway...

...I think BB was saying, in pretty much his first answer back there, that he is creating that means for you to mix colors and effects, is he not?

Like you're asking for in your last post there?

Personally I don't see why it's an issue if that comes as an add-on that BB has programmed, as opposed to an integral feature that the Poser development team have programmed?

slaps head

Wow, this is sooooo a day of no understanding...lol

Laurie

Oh, okay, I get it now. Heh, where Acadia the link lady? She'd have some good links to tutorials on nodes and what they do. :)

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

I give up.

Ok, I don't have to know how electricity works to use a lamp. But if I did it might make it easier for me to make a lamp. Get it? LOL

Laurie

Quote - Oh, okay, I get it now. Heh, where Acadia the link lady? She'd have some good links to tutorials on nodes and what they do. :)

taps nose with finger Liz's got it! LOL

:)

Laurie

I'd like to know how Poser and Firefly is built from the ground up, line by line, in (I'd guess) C or C++ code.

But I wouldn't have the time or the means to go through and figure that out.

Does it stop me worrying about it that the code is sealed, closed source, not accessible to me.

I guess maybe it does... a bit...

...however, Blender is open source... LuxRender is open source. Do I pickup one of those, from the source repository now and start working through it.

Nah.... sod that. I want to get on with the stuff I enjoy. Which at present is making pictures.

I'll just let those other guys, who are clearly already good at programming 3D CG apps and ray trace engines get on with their stuff for now... thanks.

A friend of mine quit using Poser after Poser4 because the node system in the material room freaked her out. Still does. She looks at what I do sometimes and just shakes her head. It is daunting and I don't understand half of it. I can only make simple shaders on my own, so I use those released by others (BB mostly, and yeah, I have your shaders Laurie and have used them), because it saves me time and looks better than what I could wrangle up. Heh, leaves more time to fight with Poser's lights.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

Some of us (including me) like to tinker more than render ;). Get as much from the program as we can in our way. Our way is the program itself. The way of others is making images. Each a valid endeavor...lol.

For instance, the last few years I make stuff. Hardly ever do a render that isn't a test render...lol. I'll make stuff and just give it away and I hardly EVER use my own stuff. My happiness comes from setting it up so it looks nice to me...then chuck it for the next thing...lol.

Anyone ever stop to think what would happen if BB just up and left? ;). We'd all be SCREWED...lol. It would be nice if we all had a good grasp of the material room, wouldn't it?

Laurie

In terms of the mat room though... it's not like there isn't the guidance and learning material there... and like a lot of others, it's not that I've not made some inroads into it.

I think it's just that, if someone else has already mastered it past the point I know I could (because I know the limits to which I am prepared to apply myself) I don't see a clear point in pursuing that course of learning in a lot of depth... well not if the fruits of that prior mastery is accessible for me to re-use.

But the thing is, I've realised, the node system itself isn't rocket science... or quantum mathematics.

The node system is potentially quite straight forward, I reckon. It's kind of just joining the dots... between elements, many of which are quite intuitive to use, if you don't worry too much about all the numbers in them

It only becomes complicated when you are trying to describe (or at least make an approximate model of) real world material properties using it.

That's not the node system then that's complicated. It's the real world system being modelled. Or, maybe it's not that always, but it's the bridge you need to build, between Firefly's limitations and the real world system being modelled, that is complicated... but anyway...

I guess the beauty of the node system is that it opens up the potential to do this, way past the original remit for Poser or Firefly.

But it does take a certain kind of mind to interpret the real world mathematically in this way, and then transpose that into this system of nodes... sure.

I certainly feel no shame, or sense of personal under-achievement, that I should defer to those, like BB, who can do this task so well... far from it, I am overjoyed there is someone there to push the envelope to my benefit.

I feel my talents, such as they are, are probably more in other areas...

Well, when you've been using the program as long as we have ya find yourself losing interest in what ya started it for in the first place and want to broaden your horizons I guess. I've been using this silly program since 1998. I'm pooped out on making images... It's either focus on another element of the program or move on..heh. I get where you're coming from - I WAS you...lol. I'm just not there anymore and I guess some ppl like me aren't either ;). Can't really speak for Khai, but I guess that may be the case. Or may it's just cause he want's to know every aspect of the software and that's where his satisfaction lies.

Laurie

Apologies.. I did post without reading the rest of the thread... but now that I've gone back and re-read it, I still dont see the distinction between having the 'guts' of materials exposed with materials and shaders on offer from others vs a program where you feed the program an image and 'tell it to make it steel'. There are still guts hidden in the program that tell it how to make that image look like steel. Would it be different if poser had just bought a bunch of baggins bills shaders and incorporated them into a dropdown menu in the basic material room that the use could attach an image to.

brief intermission here*

poser team.... Do exactly that!! it would be awesome!***

*** back on track now***

I'm not interested in fighting with you or anyone... and I am in no way looking down on you for not understanding the material room... I dont mind playing with it and can grasp some things a little but half of what I do that ends up working I could not really say I understand exactly why

I just really dont get what you are after.. people may have latched onto 'preset' because what you described in your intitial post about what you would do in another program sounds exactly like a built in preset.... to me anyway.

Quote - meatsim before we carry on, please read the rest of the posts. we'll avoid fights.

I'm not sure why ppl have latched onto this preset thing. it's not what I was talking about from the start here. can we please drop it?

Quote - Anyone ever stop to think what would happen if BB just up and left? ;). We'd all be SCREWED...lol. It would be nice if we all had a good grasp of the material room, wouldn't it?

I have a plan B... but that involves selling the house and living in a shack somewhere, on some waste ground... just me and a copy of 3DS Max and VRay.

I'm hoping to continue to use BB's shaders in Firefly, if he'll be good enough to keep contributing them...

...and this shader builder script he's working on sound very cool to me.

Quote - Well, when you've been using the program as long as we have ya find yourself losing interest in what ya started it for in the first place and want to broaden your horizons I guess. I've been using this silly program since 1998. I'm pooped out on making images... It's either focus on another element of the program or move on..heh. I get where you're coming from - I WAS you...lol. I'm just not there anymore and I guess some ppl like me aren't either ;). Can't really speak for Khai, but I guess that may be the case. Or may it's just cause he want's to know every aspect of the software and that's where his satisfaction lies.

Laurie

Totally... I've been playing with Poser precisely since I got Poser 9.

Course, this evening I've been mostly trying to make a Tardis wall in Hexagon / Shade and tinkering with learning how do something in ZBrush... LOL :lol:

Khai, I understand your frustration.
It "was "- read that as "is" my frustration as well.

I started a long time ago, with Poser1 on a 1.44 disk, free with a mag.

I understood ZERO, point ZERO.
So I played, and played, mostly with NO results.

At the time I had a VERY busy job. And free hrs where rare and far between.

EVERYTHING I know now, is by doing it. Trying it.

Do you cook? Or do you go to Mc Donalds?

I never-ever buy.
If I need something?
I will find it, or make it.

I "love freestuff" and am not ashamed to say so.
And If there is no "free"? I make it, or find a way around it.

Yes, it takes time, lots of time and motivation.

You have a problem with the Materail room?
Me too. But I search solutions. Perhaps you have seen the skin shader I posted lately?

There is a HUGE problem in the material room that is NOT in any book.

Wanna know what it is???

You can connect everything into everything, making total garbadge if you do not know what you are doing.

Or? You can be a "Math" guru like BB, and Math your way around in it.

Most of us have to learn the hard way.
Try and error and read in forums what can, and can not be done.

YES; That is the main problem.
Poser has too many options that let you connect anything into anything.
If they make sense or not.

That is one thing that could become more user friendly.
Only allow node combinations that make sense.
It would have saved me months of my free time.

You are absolutely right about that.

But? Hey?
Poser is my hobby, and my Passion.
So I study and learn each and every day.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

OMG..I agree with vilters. That asteroid really is coming this December...lol.

I agree that the material room is powerful. It's also a bear. And I make lots and lots of garbage in it...lol.

Laurie

You make my day darling. :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

cooking? took me about a month to go from boiled egg to full roast dinner for six with all the trimmings. including bread making, cakes, etc. I thank Alton Brown for some of that... the rest was pure experimenting a patience. I enjoy cooking a great deal.

I think part of the material room problem is, if I can put this into words.. I don't have the math. at school, we had sixth maths groups, 1 being top, six being special needs. I was inm 5.

so I have no maths to speak of... kind of. I can do algerbra in my head. the teacher would show us a problem on the board and I'd get into trouble for just writing the answer. he wanted to see the working out. ok it was simple puzzles, but I never did any working out. I just saw the answer. if I worked it out, I'd get it wrong everytime.

so I was marked down and left school with a substandard maths education. now I see BB's and others shaders posted.

if this makes sense, I can read the music. but I can't read the notes. I can follow what the shader does. but, I don't how it does it. just knowing the nodes won't help here I think.. (I'm figuring this out here as I write it. I'm actually putting in public what I've hidden from me as well).. I think I'd have to go back to school and start over. gah someone just shoot me.

Quote - You make my day darling. :-)

Laurie

Quote - so I have no maths to speak of... kind of. I can do algerbra in my head. the teacher would show us a problem on the board and I'd get into trouble for just writing the answer. he wanted to see the working out. ok it was simple puzzles, but I never did any working out. I just saw the answer. if I worked it out, I'd get it wrong everytime.

I don't think "intuiting" one's way around the mat room is out of the question... depending what's being attempted... and once a few principles are grasped... not numbers.. just what nodes connect to what other nodes...

...patterns if you like.

That's really how I work. I see patterns and try and replicate... slightly rearrange them.

That's probably why I start best from complete working examples... i.e. I've managed to splice bits of different BB derived shaders together, or onto other texture maps... and get something working out.

On occassion.

Other times I haven't. LOL :lol:

But, it does seem, the more I look at example BB shaders (for example), presented as visual layout patterns, in the mat room, the more I see the sections of nodes therein as kind of sub patterns I can start to (slightly more succesfully) play around with.. without necessarily understanding all the numbers.

Probably nowhere near as clever as BB's script, but if anyone wants this little utility that I made for myself, feel free to go grab it.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

Quote -

Probably nowhere near as clever as BB's script, but if anyone wants this little utility that I made for myself, feel free to go grab it.

I've written all the sub patterns in tutorial threads. The most important is the BBGlossy thread.

There are actually three very broadly different subjects here.

One is pattern - often just dealt with (even by me) using a color map. But, making procedural patterns (for example, wood grain or scratches in painted wood) is a big deal, not easy at all. Goofing around snapping things together, you can come up with some fascinating patterns. But those are just happy accidents and it's like hitting random notes on a piano. Can you make one intentionally? Like fish scales in my avatar, for example? That's math and it's seriously hard. Most people can't do it, even after I explain how. And it's not physics so you can't even go look up what you need to do.

Two is what I used to call texture before I got into CG - bump or displacement shapes, turning a flat surface into something else. Since this sort of thing is usually based on noise, lots of people can stitch together useful noisy patterns. Little math is needed here, although if you're looking to produce something intentionally, it may be called for.

Three is mediation of light - diffuse reflection, specular reflection, refraction, scatter, dispersion, ... this is where you really really just should rely on presets. Because this is serious math which you can look up, but the problem is it's physics. You have to first know how the world works. Then you have to come up with a way of reproducting that without simulating individual photons - you have to know and take advantage of the statistics of large numbers of photons. Then you have to translate that into a specification that a computer can deal with, which is all math.

This last category is where I really shine and where people get the greatest benefit from just using my shaders. There's not a lot of arguing about creativity here . Glass is glass, metal is metal. You can build it yourself, but you're going to end up with the same equations I already did, and I mostly got them out of physics books. There's not a lot to invent here and call your own.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Nice one, Snarly.

@ Khai, don't be disheartened, mate; my knowledge of the Material Room is very basic and most of it comes from plugging stuff in to see what happens. BB's stuff is way beyond me and I'm not exactly bad at math(s) or programming, for that matter.

You could perhaps benefit from some tutorials to at least give you the fundamentals and take it from there, assuming you'd be sufficiently interested and/or motivated. I'm sure there are several knocking around.

Anyhow, if you do give up Poser entirely, fair enough. Hope you'll stick around here, though; you're a good bloke with a good brain. And quite often funny.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Here is the gold preset in Lux Render, after 35 minutes of rendering using "unbiased" techniques.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here is my 85-node gold preset in Poser, rendered in 5 minutes.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Now - who wants to know how to make those 85 nodes? And after you're done, and you've matched my and LuxRenders results, and you have exactly the same shader - what then?

Will you know how to make glass?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here are four variations, using the same shader, but changing one or two numbers in each case.

Obviously with the same node arrangement, there is a lot of room for variations.

Do you want to use the variations or build the ability to have them?

First - reduced saturation

Second - reduced IOR, increased "brush" effect (which is a Fractal_Sum node blended into the IOR value)

Third - reduced blur

Fourth - less green, more blue

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Finally... a great thread.

In this thread, I develop, from first principles in physics and geometry, a shader that does nylon. Every step is fully explained and results demonstrated.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2803439

If you want to see how it's done, there is an example.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

What I wanna know is, if I use a certain node attached to another node, what is it really doing? What does Exp do different from Max, etc? If wanna do a particular thing, what nodes should I start with? It's easy with some of them, but some are just damned mysterious...lol.

For those of us who have never run across this type of shader system before (and I haven't) sometimes we don't even know how to start..lol. Sometimes it's more satisfying to do it oneself and have it turn out well than have someone else give it to you. I'm not one of those, but that may be where Khai is at. He just wants to understand it, because it's the last part of Poser he hasn't conquered ;). Some folks wanna learn to do it themselves rather than have someone else do it for them.

For what it's worth, Blender's node system makes my head hurt too ;).

Laurie

I do not know what you did, to figure out how to use or create textures, but i think it is actually a good idea to take a look or two at how other renderers or 3d programs do it. I do not know sketchup specifically, but e.g. vue, blender or povray have essentially the exact same material system. In fact, there seem to be only two in use (the second variant is used by the physically based renderers). Probably Poser is not the best option to learn about how it works, because it is full of technicalities and historically grown idiosyncracies which makes it difficult to see the underlying scheme, and also there is the gamma correction problem between poser versions. Also you usually cannot just grab a shader and take it apart and hope to find out why it does what it does, because (in my opinion) you can never be sure if the creator actually knew what she was doing, which makes things often more confusing than they need to be (often, not always!). Forums will only get you so far, because you have to be relatively specific in what you ask for and even then will you get a lot of different opinions and wrong answers (this one might be an example), and good tutorials for Poser, especially for materials, are rare.

If you can use video tutorials, there are a lot good ones on the internet for blender (though blender is not the easiest software to learn IMO), for vue (at geekatplay.com for example), and even more for the more expensive software packages (sketchup too, but i did never touch it). Video tutorials have the big advantage, that - because they are limited in time - their authors have to confine themselves to the most important things and leaving out all the complicated details. If you rather use books, i can recommend the one by Jeremy Birn, it can be read without having to deal with much math.

Quote - Probably nowhere near as clever as BB's script, but if anyone wants this little utility that I made for myself, feel free to go grab it.

Cheers Snarly, that's awesome

Quote - In this thread, I develop, from first principles in physics and geometry, a shader that does nylon. Every step is fully explained and results demonstrated.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2803439

If you want to see how it's done, there is an example.

Cool

Quote - Well, when you've been using the program as long as we have ya find yourself losing interest in what ya started it for in the first place and want to broaden your horizons I guess. I've been using this silly program since 1998. I'm pooped out on making images... It's either focus on another element of the program or move on..heh. I get where you're coming from - I WAS you...lol. I'm just not there anymore and I guess some ppl like me aren't either ;). Can't really speak for Khai, but I guess that may be the case. Or may it's just cause he want's to know every aspect of the software and that's where his satisfaction lies.

Laurie

I've been a "how does all this stuff work" type of person for a long time. For me it was modeling, texturing and rigging.

Quote - Here is the gold preset in Lux Render, after 35 minutes of rendering using "unbiased" techniques.

Yeah, I don't really understand this "unbiased" thing, if I'm honest?

Surely there are still some kind of "heuristics" in there, on top of the purely mathematical "laws of physics" enshrined within the renderer code? Are they just less optimised... or what?

What's the deal??

Yes there are shortcuts even in unbiased renderers.

A true physics simulation would have the volution of each photo carried out through it's entire path, not just where it intersects a polygon. This would be true volumetric rendering. It is as much out of range right now as unbiased rendering was out of range, computationally, just 15 years ago. Nobody was doing it.

This is most obvious in SSS of any sort.

But still, unbiased renderers are a lot closer to flinging photons around than your typical scan line renderer. That's why they take so long - they don't do statistical shortcuts.

In my gold shader, the reflection of the sun (infinite light) was not done with rays. It was done with a statistical model (Blinn node). That's biased. It's a simplification based on probability, that given I'm looking from the camera to here, and from here the light is here, then this function (Blinn) can predict how much light would pass back to the camera from that light. That is one evaluation of a statistical model. It breaks down in a lot of cases. I did not set up any of those cases, though, so it didn't matter.

On the other hand, the LuxRender engine doesn't even have that statistical model. It sent over a thousand rays from every pixel in that image, looking for light. It made no statistical assumptions that would reduce that work.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

For better or worse, the node 'metaphor' of shader creation seems to be quite popular these days. I don't know about the newer versions but Carrara 6 doesn't use it, nor does C4D 10 and you can do a lot in Vue without getting into the nodes as well. I think a lot of it is how your mind works. For some people, nodes come more naturally. To me, it quickly becomes spaghetti - one reason I don't render as much in Poser. If you don't want presets or helpers, you're probably SOL. I doubt they're going to chnage the whole material system or create a full blown alternative method of material definition unless they change render engines. I assume that the node based system was there when they originally bought/licensed Firefly from Pixels3D.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I also get very frustrated with the material room. While it is true that I haven't studied it near enough, whenever I see some of these shaders with 15 to 30 plus node attachments, I'm thinking how in the heck does anyone ever figure this out. It is nothing short of amazing to me how BB and others make sense of this all, but I sure wish it was more geared toward average blokes like me.

Here's a dumb question that I've not seen asked, and this looks like the thread to ask it in.

BB (and others) have very kindly provided me with shaders from time to time. Right now, I keep those shaders as jpgs of the posted material room screens.

Question: Is there a way to save those shaders as mtls or presets so they can be loaded quickly?

Quote - I also get very frustrated with the material room. While it is true that I haven't studied it near enough, whenever I see some of these shaders with 15 to 30 plus node attachments, I'm thinking how in the heck does anyone ever figure this out. It is nothing short of amazing to me how BB and others make sense of this all, but I sure wish it was more geared toward average blokes like me.

Well, from what BB has said, he's working on some sort of add-on to provide just that.

As noted, Vue, for instance has nodes, in the heart of it's shader system. Possibly much more complex than Poser's node system.

But Vue also has an "intermediate" level, a UI that still lets more complex, layered shaders be built, without the need to look at the nodes underneath. Least that's how I understand it.

What BB is looking to provide, I think, is something like that?

Snarly's freebie posted... not to mention EZSkin are also variants of this idea... of creating an intermediate UI layer... the way I see it.

I know folk will say, why doesn't SM provide this in the core Poser. Why must it be an add-on.

Maybe then some folk would feel better about not understanding the node system then... if it was a sealed box, out of the factory... and not an aftermarket add-on... I don't know??

But personally, I don't mind who does it. If it's BB that does it, or Snarlygribbly, I'm going to be much obliged to them for doing that... in exactly the same way I'm hugely grateful for Kez-WM. Because I can't model much yet or rig figures either....

I think I got the point of this thread.

There is a need for the ability to create, all by yourself, from the ground up, decent shader / node constructions in material room, deriving expert results, told in "slow motion" (=with small steps and lots of intermediate examples) for those who never made the final (or any) highschool math classes and never got a decent class in "node based programming".

Like that, right?

I was contemplating to go Material Room in my tutorial series, this might be a way. To me it's like crawling the racing track, but it might quite well be worth the effort.

- - - - -

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Quote - Here's a dumb question that I've not seen asked, and this looks like the thread to ask it in.

BB (and others) have very kindly provided me with shaders from time to time. Right now, I keep those shaders as jpgs of the posted material room screens.

Question: Is there a way to save those shaders as mtls or presets so they can be loaded quickly?

Totally. I have the Library window opened inline within the mat room screen, because I load and save material presets in and out of the Library when I'm in the mat room...

The "plus" icon at the bottom of the Library interface will save the material currently selected in the mat room, this way.

If you click the plus sign in the Pose Room, then you get a prompt to select which material group, or groups, you want to save as your Library preset.

Is that what you mean Basicwiz? (have I explained what I mean reasonably?)

Quote - I think I got the point of this thread.

There is a need for the ability to create, all by yourself, from the ground up, decent shader / node constructions in material room, deriving expert results, told in "slow motion" (=with small steps and lots of intermediate examples) for those who never made the final (or any) highschool math classes and never got a decent class in "node based programming".

Like that, right?

I was contemplating to go Material Room in my tutorial series, this might be a way. To me it's like crawling the racing track, but it might quite well be worth the effort.

That would be cool, I think.

BB's nylon thread makes great reading... more, step by step, tutorials, and some kind of node cheat sheet would be a fantastic resource, surely?

One thing that I have noticed is that the newest versions of poser allow you to do more with less 'node spaghetti'. If you look at the BB glossy shader and compare it to the PP2012 BB glossy that BB posted(I think in an RDNA thread) you will notice how much simpler it is. That is a result of the addition of new nodes that contain the equations that BB had to create in earlier versions of Poser. I'm thinking of the fresnel effect in this one that used to be several nodes and now is contained in one. So in that way poser is becoming more and more geared twoards us average folks. But by the same token they are also adding new toys for BB to squeeze the most out of by coming up with big fancy complex shaders for us to puzzle over.

I for one am happy to use anything they feel like throwing in there and I just have to hope people will help me when I use it wrong.

Quote - I also get very frustrated with the material room. While it is true that I haven't studied it near enough, whenever I see some of these shaders with 15 to 30 plus node attachments, I'm thinking how in the heck does anyone ever figure this out. It is nothing short of amazing to me how BB and others make sense of this all, but I sure wish it was more geared toward average blokes like me.

Speaking of new nodes...does Fresnel_blend affect the way we should be doing water in PP2012?

花 | 美 | 花美 | 花火
...It's a pun.

Quote - Yes there are shortcuts even in unbiased renderers.

A true physics simulation would have the volution of each photo carried out through it's entire path, not just where it intersects a polygon. This would be true volumetric rendering. It is as much out of range right now as unbiased rendering was out of range, computationally, just 15 years ago. Nobody was doing it.

This is most obvious in SSS of any sort.

SSS was the thing I thought of there. How can it be wholly unbiased, I was thinking, if there isn't layers of skin modelled in the mesh, with each layer having some thickness... and then, having a muscle layer modelled underneath that and likely some skeleton under that...

...but I expect I was over thinking it there somewhat!

Yup, render speed is definitely important to me... as important as realism... because I like complexity in an image, often. So my scenes take a long time to render anyway.... it's not that I want a five minute render.

So BB putting all these mathematical heuristics and light physics equations into the biased, but faster Firefly is great, I think.

Like Sam, I can program... I do it for a living... and I'm not terrible at mathematics or algebra, etc, when I need to be. But I'll generally defer to more hardcore mathematicians than myself to come up with the really cool libraries... some open source or MIT licensed... some priced license models... the choice will depend on the reuse / project.

I quite enjoy a spot of gardening myself, when I'm not doing 3d, in the spare time I have.

But I generally plant a lot of stuff already propagated by others... from the garden centre... or grown by more horticulturally astute older relatives... etc.

Well, I just get the feeling that for a hobbyist program (which Poser definitely is), the material room should just not be that darn hard to figure out. I mean, it's probably the toughest part of Poser to understand and use (other than maybe rigging, but even that is fairly straight forward). Why?

Laurie

hi Laurie,

personally i don't think it's that hard to figure out, it's just hard to explain to people who don't have the background talents to do the figuring out.

It reminds me of a discussion with some manager: driving a car is not hard, changing the engine is not hard, changing the tires is not hard and slipping along a row of pilons is not hard either. But changing the engine as well as the tires while driving and slipping along the pilons all at once is a challenge.

The same holds for Poser: it goes from physics (cloth mechanics in Cloth Room, Optics and materials / light interaction in Mat Room and Render) to math to program coding to user interfacing while at the same time the manual should address the user input - working process - render output in a way that is easy to grasp for non-tech non-math visual artists who did not desired a carrier in quantum astrophysics for a reason.

That requires a very serious bunch of skills in the technical writing department, and those skills are very rare as you can tell from about any manual from about anything you buy, or from (looking at the teacher in) most math and physics classes in average highschool.

That exactly is what this thread is all about. For the "teacher" explaining reality without math is like talking to the deaf without using his hands. For the user it's like a Roman Centurion trying to understand a US Drone Controller fighting Taliban from his home office. There is a mental gap. It can be bridged. That's the challenge.

At least for me it is. Just my view.

- - - - -

Usually I'm wrong. But to be effective and efficient, I don't need to be correct or accurate.

visit www.aRtBeeWeb.nl (works) or Missing Manuals (tutorials & reviews) - both need an update though

Quote - Totally. I have the Library window opened inline within the mat room screen, because I load and save material presets in and out of the Library when I'm in the mat room...

The "plus" icon at the bottom of the Library interface will save the material currently selected in the mat room, this way.

If you click the plus sign in the Pose Room, then you get a prompt to select which material group, or groups, you want to save as your Library preset.

Is that what you mean Basicwiz? (have I explained what I mean reasonably?)

Exactly. And now I feel like an even bigger idiot because I never noticed the + at the bottom of the material collection on the library screen! I had always assumed (yeah, I know!) that if I tried to save it as a pose, then the pose would be saved with it. But the mtl collection will serve my needs perfectly!

THANK YOU!

I really, really wish SM would do one of their webinars on the material room as well as some tutorial videos. Hint, hint SM...hint ;). It only makes sense...the material room is the most confusing for more Poser users than anything else Poser does.

Laurie

LaurieA:

I totally agree! They shouled be the ones doing it. But if Artbee wants to step up, I'll take advantage of what he knows and is willing to share any day of the week!

Just for grins and giggles, I'm in the process of loading all of the shaders I have collected into the Mtl files area as defined shaders. After I take inventory (and visit BB's site to raid his shader pantry) I'm going to think and see if there's something I'm missing that I need on a regular basis. About the only thing I think of now is a generic cloth texture based on a procedural. Probably can steal one of those from a good product like your free dynamic tee. ()

My point:

Given the large skill set (as ArtBee so accurately defined it!) needed to effectively use the Material room to full advantage, this may be like modeling is to most of us: Something we let the truly tallented do for us.

While I understand the OP's frustration with this state of affairs, if I can get my truck loaded, I'm good with it.

Lazy me.

Everyone has their own needs and interests.....lol. I'd rather make my own than have it given to me too, like Khai, but I'm also willing to accept some help which Khai probably is too, but more suggestive help than direct help :P

Laurie

I feel for Khai. The material room is an annoying.... grrrr.

In fact, every time I try to follow shaders in the forums, I get more frustrated.

Take this one, for instance:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3817511&ebot_calc_page#message_3817511

If I follow it precisely, I get a nice, shiny, black ball.

I was so puzzled by this that I downloaded the freebie that the OP created that is supposedly pictured in the thread.

The shader is precisely the same as given in the thread, precisely the same as what I re-create.

And I get... a nice, shiny black ball.

I have no idea why, and I have no idea how to even work out why.

(I've tried changing lots of parameters just to see what happens. Nothing works. But using trial and error, I could be at it for years.)

So I can only conclude that either my version of Poser has some odd bug that randomly prevents shaders from working properly, or my eyes are funny and I'm just not seeing things the way everyone else does.

If I can't even re-create a posted shader, no way in hell am I going to be able to work out even the simplest things on my own. Ever. It's frustrating all right, and more than a bit demoralizing.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Because you don't have enough bounces set in your render settings to be able to do raytracing all the way through.

You need two bounces or more - one to enter the ball, one to exit.

Render settings are just as mysterious if you don't know what they do.

PS - Some people forget to enable raytracing, too. I used to write that in every post - enable raytracing, two or more bounces.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Thanks for the link to the crystal ball thread

Quote - Because you don't have enough bounces set in your render settings to be able to do raytracing all the way through.

You need two bounces or more - one to enter the ball, one to exit.

Render settings are just as mysterious if you don't know what they do.

PS - Some people forget to enable raytracing, too. I used to write that in every post - enable raytracing, two or more bounces.

Arrrrghhh!!!

Of course you are right. LOL.

Thank you.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Damn, Bagginsbill is kinda scary when his feathers gets ruffled. I suppose a painter should Fabricate his own brushes, grind his own pigments and weave his own canvas... I don't know, seems like alot of people aren't seeing the forest for the trees on here. Alot of "traditional artists" working in "traditional Mediums" think CG is cheating to begin with, can't imagine what they would think of a platform like poser wherein the basic foundation of the program is the use of pre-existing content as a means of creativity or illustration...

Oh, please, not this one again. Let's please keep to the OP's topic.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

When I used to paint in oils I bought them all ready made... saved a lot of time... and faffing about with larger quantities of poisonous chemicals, I guess.

Also, had a guy to help make up the canvases. Although it was college... so they made us tack the frames together, stretch and prime them ourselves.

Now, if I went back to it, I would most likely just buy ready stretched and primed canvases to save me time.

Going back to the likes of the Renaissance, those guys used a lot of bodily fluids, excretions and the like in mixing up their paint colours, apparently. Definitely wouldn't fancy getting into that.

But I do believe there are still some purists who do...

@ monkeycloud, you're right about the purist painters ... I know several (because I come from that background) that will only use rabbit skin glue sizing and would be abhorred of acrylic gesso and on and on... @ latexluv, you're right. kinda missed a page of posts in the thread. But I think my comment still pertains to the original topic, plus I thought the subjects core was interesting and something that I muse about when pondering this medium. Speaking of which, sure beats hauling around buckets of plaster and mixing up clay in a mixer, etc. I'll admit the material room's inner workings are an absolute mystery to me but I'll still manage to make some nice shaders for myself through research and experimentation, Mystery is half the fun. I mentioned in another thread that I thought the material room was a piece of magical code. Has anyone ever used a layer based shader system like in Strata or Modo, have been meaning to look into that on Strata...

We shouldn't wait for SM to come up with something.

While no-one has BB's level of understanding (even including SM, I suspect) there are still people here with enough knowledge to demystify the Material Room for others.

There are also plenty of free online meeting rooms available, so long as you can put up with the ads that go with anything 'free'.

We should just do it.

Free stuff @ https://poser.cobrablade.net/

Quote - Going back to the likes of the Renaissance, those guys used a lot of bodily fluids, excretions and the like in mixing up their paint colours, apparently. Definitely wouldn't fancy getting into that.

An example:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_brown

I just hope they didn't lick the tips of their brushes to get a fine point....

I do miss the physicality of getting stuck into real world materials.

But moreover, I miss all the time I had, when I was able to do that!

These days, I guess I'm just content to use what it takes for an end result... plus I love all the stuff that can be done with CG and where it has gotten to now... it is a very exciting medium.

But I totally do get where Khai is coming from, I think, with looking to work more from scratch... and I would wholly commend him for that impetus too.

If some more, structured tutorials, guides to using the mat room come out of this thread then that would be a great result.

Not that there aren't a lot, contributed by BB and others already, of course...

...but something resembling more of a quick start guide, some more step-by-steps... with some sort of associated node cheatsheat would be fantastic on top of that, I reckon...

...it does seem to me like the mat room and usage off it has possibly now matured, from experimentation and development of techniques, into some more tried and tested practices, such that the above could probably be put together in a nice, accessible format for folk to follow better?

Quote - Damn, Bagginsbill is kinda scary when his feathers gets ruffled. I suppose a painter should Fabricate his own brushes, grind his own pigments and weave his own canvas... I don't know, seems like alot of people aren't seeing the forest for the trees on here. Alot of "traditional artists" working in "traditional Mediums" think CG is cheating to begin with, can't imagine what they would think of a platform like poser wherein the basic foundation of the program is the use of pre-existing content as a means of creativity or illustration...

You seem to have my opinion reversed from what it actually is.

I was not suggesting that others make their own - and all my later commentary was that you probably can't even if I explain it to you.

I was suggesting you use my presets.

It's the recipients of that suggestion that take umbrage and blame Poser.

But if Poser made it easy like the some other renderers, then you'd just be using presets again. "Easy shader" assembly means components that are higher-level, i.e. presets.

You want gold, silver, bronze, platinum, etc.? Get my metal, then tweak.

You want lake water, sea water, glass water, river water? Get my water, then tweak.

I don't want you to try to understand how to make these things from raw (math) materials.

I do enjoy trying to teach it, but most artists don't need to know this stuff. You learn it because it's fun. You don't fight through it because it's terribly boring - you just skip it. Same as you skip making your own oil paints.

You're not rolling your own in those other renderers. You are assembling high-level components. That makes it easier, and also more limited.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

@ BB, as I wrote before, the main problem that confuses lots of users is that Poser allows everything to be connected to everything.
Even the worst combinations are possible.
Want a devide by "0"? No problem.
Put a Blinn in Diffuse_Color? No problem
A Glossy in transparant?
A Specular node in the Bump or Displacement channel?
Or chain them all up?
Even when total garbadge arrives, Posers material room allows it.
Please do, no limits; Some might even make sense to somebody...

And then, one gets the strangest results and gets frustrated, or quits.

(Remember from a past discussion that I allways open up all windows, because I want to see what is happening.)

Let me give one more.
An easy one : The HSV node.
Hue? At what number are we back at ZERO change?
Somebody?
Any takers?

If the hobby end user has to test, and try out each and every possible combination?
He"ll have Poser 2020 before he is finished with PP2012.
And we only covered the material room, what I often call (with a smile) the "Math room".

By Poser 2030, he"ll have tested the Cloth room, the hair room, and still has to try the face room.

Yes, from that point of view, I understand the OP's question.

Or??
We limit ourselves to what we know, and work with the little we know.
And build our workflow around that.

Most of what I see in the Galleries comes from Mc Donalds.

A pre-morphed figure, V4 plus Morphpack++, some dials spinned.
A sword from freestuff with Poser 7 materials. Some adapted with BB metals, (or not)
A light préset => When you are lucky adapted to PP2012 lights
A bought background and some props with Poser 6-7-8 textures=> texture filtering stayed at None. Or be lucky again and find it set at quality.

Render=> Upload.
Finished.

It is like being a pilot; Engage the autopilot and sit back.

Yes, the Math room could be more structured. (Sorry, this time I wrote "Math room" automatically)
Only allowing connections that make sense.
Giving WARNINGS when doing something stupid.

Knowing in the back of our heads that the average Poser hobby user has about one free hr a day (at best) to "create" something.
He /she (sorry ladies) does not have weeks or months to figure out all nodes and all possibilities.

YES;
We thank you for all the help and math here (I got it right this time) but also know we forget as we are not working full time in Poser.

If SM want to make Poser more user friendly, the Material room is the one to start with.

"Its all there, figure it out".

Leads to posts like this.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

But Vilters, I'm seeing the opinions of multiple people and they conflict here. This thread is incoherent.

Quote - He /she (sorry ladies) does not have weeks or months to figure out all nodes and all possibilities

Then this person should use presets.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

One person says they want to make shaders FROM SCRATCH.

Another person says the materials need to be easier to build.

These are conflicting goals. You either can make anything you want, but you make it from scratch, or you take the limitations of presets and you don't make it from scratch.

I give people shaders that have plenty of knobs to turn for different results and there is NO MATH in doing that. Yet only a handful pay attention to that. If you want to build a little bit, you can do that too. You want a clouds node in your BBGlossy diffuse color? Plug one in.

Yes it is also possible to do senseless things, like plug a Blinn into Diffuse_Color, multiplied by 0. I don't see that as a problem.

It sounds to me that what is being said is it would be desirable to have a system that produces something sensible no matter what settings or connections you pick. But, that seems motivated only by a desire to enjoy mindless experimentation without frustrating black output.

That's like assembling electronic components at random. You're never going to find a radio or MP3 player by accident, no matter HOW sensible the connectors force you to be.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Hue? At what number are we back at ZERO change? If the hobby end user has to test, and try out each and every possible combination?

This is just a matter of documentation, not a rewrite of the material room. But I agree you need to know this. The answer is 6. And not 6 in the parameter. Six after the incoming hue has been multipled with the parameter. The rainbow is spread across the numbers 0 to 6, and repeats forever.

0 = Red

1 = Yellow

2 = Green

3 = Cyan

4 = Blue

5 = Magenta

6 = Red

7 = Yellow ...

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Castle Poser tried to explain every node.

Some found it helpful.

Questions like Laurie asked earlier are perplexing to me.

The exp, max, min, sin, cos, etc. functions, for example, are taught in math class, not in CG artist class. How you use them is like asking how you use a pencil.

You hold it, press it against paper, and move it around. It will leave behind some dark marks.

Now - go sketch a portrait with a pencil.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Read this.

http://www.castleposer.co.uk/my_tutorials.html

It's a quick intro to many of the nodes.

But - you understand that you're not going to learn physics there. If you don't understand the Fresnel effect, learning the math nodes won't change that.

The suggested uses are a bit ridiculous. I could write about the Bias math node function for DAYS.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

@ bagginsbill. No, I understood your point of view. I was just referring to "X-Post: Advert? Man you're a cynical f***. Thought you'd be interested in a solution to your problem. I guess you just want ears to hear you. Got cheese?" Nah, man... nothing but respect for your opinions and your work. I'll use one of your shaders anytime. Of course at this point in my digital medium experience, it's a challenge to even figure out how to utilize something you've already put on the plate for the user. Not to mention that my elderly hardware would rather I didn't. One thing I am curious about though, is why you chose a 'Hobbyist' application like poser for your explorations. Then again, like I said, I'm only just beginning to look seriously at this medium, hence I'm not aware of all of the Poser lore and norms.

Oh, just a little aside to some of Vilters comments... I agree about the whole V4 thing. I don't get it (perhaps that's a forbidden topic, and I apologize) but what is this obsession with endless pin-ups. I mean don't people get tired of trying to fit virtual lingerie on... oh, nevermind.

Addendum... The CastlePoser tutorials ARE very helpful.

Quote - One thing I am curious about though, is why you chose a 'Hobbyist' application like poser for your explorations.

The answer to that is in WandW's signature.

“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?” --bagginsbill

More specifically - using other people's presets like in LuxRender is boring to me. I want to build from scratch. The Poser material room lets me do that. On top of that, I become famous for doing what is perceived as near impossible, over and over.

If, instead, I just made average drecky art, nobody would know my name, would they.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

ROFLMAO

Voila, sir.
You are the first and only one so far that has ever answered this Poser "Hue" question.
Does that surpise you?
In you honest mind.

Do you think that is normal after so many Poser versions that have had this "Hue", and so many thousands of end users?

Your answer should be in the manual. Thank you.

Conflicting posts?? Yes, no, yes, no.

I am sure that a lot of end users want to build their own shaders but should be protected against themselves.
Or helped, call it whatever you want.
The current material room allows everything. Even total math chaos.

Indeed a good set op présets but on some conditions;

That they are updated with every Poser release.
That they are different from Poser 9 to PP2012. => (GC) (But GC is an optional setting in PPro.)

One material that works great in Poser 9 is probably useless in PP2012 with GC.
Another material that is great under IDL is probably pretty ugly with only IBL.
A material that looks great inside your sphere, can be useless without it. => ( do not forget to read the word "can" )

Actually, each and every material preset HAS to be documented for the light conditions.

Structuring the Material room to make it more user friendly, and to avoid "stupid" connections would help most.

Every knife has 2 sides.

The hobby guy/girl that will buy and use presets.
The professional that knows his way around the room. => ONE only :-). He gave the "Hue" answer remember. :-)

And then there are those that experiment, and YES, they read each and every one of your posts. :-)
They take notes, and try to learn.
Thank you for that.

A rewrite of the material room?
No, just remove the impossible possibilities.
Make it work like a flowchart and I am sure you know how a flowchart works.

Better document each node.
I know this sounds pretty stupid by now, but I again take the Hue as an example.

PS; I could have asked the same question about Posers "HSV" Saturation or Value to any other Poser user.
Nah, :-) , you and Stefan are excluded. :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Quote - I give people shaders that have plenty of knobs to turn for different results and there is NO MATH in doing that. Yet only a handful pay attention to that. If you want to build a little bit, you can do that too. You want a clouds node in your BBGlossy diffuse color? Plug one in.

Yup, I spotted all the user-parameters... in your recent shaders BB, usually all over to the far left, left of the main node, I think?

I've certainly managed changing colours, textures... adding my own bump etc... and indeed even adapting the black painted wood shader to make the "Police Public Call Box" sign on the TARDIS, in my last render.

I managed to add the original image_map texture with the sign graphic on it, so that it was driving a blend node, between the black background (made of the black painted wood) and white text, with the white being made out of the lit lamp shader (with brightness turned down a bit).

I do feel like I am getting somewhere by playing around like that...

...but as I say I think I personally learn better by trying to dissect fully formed examples, rather than buiding step by step from scratch. Although going through the latter process likely builds a more thorough understanding I guess.

The Castle Poser tuts look like a worthwhile read... thanks for the link.

To build shaders from scratch, the room needs a flowchart structure, and better documentation.

From Diffuse_Color, => Only to nodes that make sense in Diffuse_Color.

From Specular, => Only to nodes that make sense in Specular

From Blinn, => Only to nodes that can make sense in Blinn

And so on.

Well, one can dream right.

** So? Back to my question.**

I know, it is a stupid one. :-)

From Hue at 1 = No change to the incoming material.

I go upwards, to where?
3?
5?
10?
100?
1.000?
10.000?
100.000 in Poser?
When am I back at "No Change".
Or? I put in a negative value?

Where am I going in Poser?

Never mind, :-) I know it is not full circle.

Just put in 10000000000 in hue, take of leave a few "0", and guess what?

I know I can be a PIA.
:-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Well, this may not be a particularly popular statement but Vue's shader system is easier to understand than Poser's and Vue is a significantly more complicated program. Yet, their shader system is fairly straight forward. Perhaps in the background where we can't see exactly what's going on, Poser's shader system and Vue's shader system work in a similar fashion. That's all fine and dandy if the implementation is something that people can easily grasp (especially in a program geared toward the hobbyist like Poser). People shouldn't have to be slamming their heads against the desk trying to figure out how to make a decent shader.

My 2 cents ;).

Laurie

Quote - One person says they want to make shaders FROM SCRATCH.

Another person says the materials need to be easier to build.

These are conflicting goals.

I completely disagree. I don't think they are conflicting in the least. Not even a little bit.

Laurie

This may exist in various places and to various degrees as add-ons but my 'ideal' material interface would offer:

'Complex' complete presets e.g. cracked concrete with rusty reinforcing rods etc.
'Basic' presets e.g. metal with the ability to drill down and refine the material e.g. steel or platinum etc. and then be able to specify additional parameters in everyday terms, e.g. scratches, rust/corrosion, polished. dull, color yada yada. The same would go for plastic etc. with appropriate parameters. If you can give me oil stains or water driven by a distribution map, even better. I'm not necessarily interested in exactly duplicating plastic X with complete physical accuracy, just create say a pill bottle by chossing plastic and setting the color, translucency etc. and have it be reasonable. I would hide the numbers as much as possible - leave that to the advanced interface or a tooltip. I think the combination of numeric inputs and terms many don't really understand plus relationships between parameters that many don't understand makes the wole exercise seem hopeless for the less sophisticated. It may seem overly simplistic to have min/max sliders and terms like transparent and mirror-like instead of set ansiotropicana to .019, but I think I'd grasp it better.

"...Vue's shader system is easier to understand than Poser's..."

I agree. Whether deliberately or not, they seem to be less oriented towards the TD end of things. The realtime render thumbnail scene preview helps tremendously in seeing the result of your adjustments, but that's another story. I also agree that simple(r) DIY isn't necessarily a contradiction. It may well be that trying to 'tame' a node based system by constraining connections, adding some kind of sophisticated AI etc. might be more trouble that it was worth. I'd start with a clean slate and look at some other applications in designing a new basic material interface. I simply think that node based interfaces are less than ideal for casual users. I'm sure many will disagree. I throw up my hands whenever I read someone who says their demented great aunt was up and hacking the command line in RedHat Enterprise in two hours as well :-) I'm sure that the technical challenges of doing something different vs. the perceived benefits mean it won't happen, but I remain convinced that it would be a boon to a lot of people.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I think the OP's problem with Poser is that the basic mode in the material room is useful for nothing at all. I find that any little tweak to any material requires hitting the advanced tab.

A somewhat more comprehensive basic interface would also be useful to advanced users looking for a quick fix.

A big problem for me in the advanced room is the absence of macros. If I could lump together a bunch of nodes that do a specific job into a macro that could be saved and loaded individually, it would save a lot of time and make a complex shader lots easier to understand.

At the moment it's like coding a complex program without being able to use subroutines.

Finally, a minor point: the material presets that come out of the box with Poser: some are pretty good, some are rubbish. I'm sure it would help everybody if we had one set of decent presets for basic materials.

Quote -

The exp, max, min, sin, cos, etc. functions, for example, are taught in math class, not in CG artist class. How you use them is like asking how you use a pencil.

I must have had a poor education as I only ever used sine.cosine and tangent to figure out whether the imaginary tree would fall on our house, how on earth it relates to colours and lights and materials I have no idea, but it would be nice to have some vague idea.

I can see where Khai is coming from, in one respect, i think and these aren't his words but mine.....Why do i need a degree in math to add a wood material to a particular model if i dont want to use a texture, or if i do want to use a texture why do i need a degree in math to make it look "professional".

Why did it have to become so complicated that we all feel like idiots becuase we aren't Stephen Hawkins IQ levels.

There is some ego stroking going on in here I feel ,sorry BB, but in a recent thread on wood procedurals I started, you were the only one whom I expected to post, but actually didn't. Imho that shouted volumes to me.

Not having a personal dig, but if you expect help from vendors in many cases, expect there to be a "Buy my product" caveat.

I keep being told poser is a hobby artists program, maybe its time for me to go back to school get a phd in maths, then I can continue to enjoy my hobby.

Even if I do use snarlys ezskin,ezmetals, BB's mail shaders, car paints, matmatics, if you have an enquiring mind it's nice to have a least some idea what's going on, and then maybe, maybe, one distant day in the future when I get fed up with using other peoples stuff, I can try and use my own.

Oh yes, and one last thing to all genii out there, just because we don't understand, please don't think we are stupid and patronise us....

Hate mail to the usual email address please............

I've actually had a revelation, some programs have a "Check my system requirements" applet to see if your PC can run the program, why don't they create a "Check my IQ" script to see if your brain can comprehend

poser or not ;)

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

I didn't answer because it is too complicated to respond to the wood question in a few minutes and I have very little time. Your thread is in a very long queue of things I need to respond to. I recently showed some wood in another thread and explained that I am not happy with it. It is just easier to use pictures, and it looks better by a mile.

The description you guys make of an easier material setup still smells like preset to me. Maybe I just have no understanding of what "from scratch"means to you.

Can you make fish scales in vue? How about chain mail rings? I did those from scratch.

I have always agreed that macros are needed to bridge the preset and from scratch chasm.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - I have always agreed that macros are needed to bridge the preset and from scratch chasm.

It would also make it a lot easier to follow what's going on in an 85-node shader.

I conclude: macros in the material room - a must-have feature.

Vue, in the version 10 I have, has a threefold shader UI.

There's basic, intermediate and advanced levels (advanced graph).

The advanced level is similar to, or certainly at very least equivalent in complexity to the nodes system present in Poser's Advanced Material room.

What Poser lacks, relative to a comparison with Vue, is that intermediate material setup UI.

The closest thing we have to anything resembling that intermediate Vue material setup UI, at present, in Poser is provided by a third party, Snarlygribbly, in the form of EZSkin...

...and yes, its down to more presets... albeit very user-adjustable and mix-able ones.

Vue's intermediate UI has a system of "layering" different presets.

Vue has a system of material settings, functions and profiles. But ALL of them you can actually look at. And when you apply them, you get a really good representation of what they'll look like. If you wanna call the functions presets, than so be it. But you can tweak every one. It's a graphical interface and it makes sense to most ppl (including me). The Poser nodes system, which will allow you to make garbage and doesn't give a really good preview, are not. Only if you understand everything can you really figure much out. And why should we have to connect 85 nodes of spaghetti? Can't we make a decent shader with just a few? Why spend an hour setting up the scene and then 5 hours setting up the materials? It just seems lopsided. I'm not picking on anyone. Just questioning the logic... Vue's math is hidden and it just shows you want you'll get and allows you to mix. That's what I've dreamed of for Poser.

Laurie

Yeah. That's exactly what Poser does need now. I'd totally agree Laurie.

BB's done a lot of the maths already. Snarlygribbly's demonstrated a viable, intermediate approach with EZSkin.

Demonstrated that what's needed isn't to strip out the existing node system and start again. But, rather, an intermediate UI can be built, added on top of that.

Should this be done in time by SM?

Ideally, I guess. But not necessarily... things like EZSkin, PoserPhysics and now Reality for Poser demonstrate to me that aftermarket can be a very strong approach to solving "missing" requirements...

...this is my take on the issue, anyway

To be honest I would MUCH rather SM change it.

Laurie

If changes of this type are to be made, my personal opinion is we will be better off if SM makes them. A third party solution is just one more question that has to be asked when a user seeks help (i.e. are you using EZSkin?).

Until SM makes these changes, then we best be EXTREMELY thankful to the 3rd party developers!

Sure... the reality is they likely won't though... I simply suspect, in practical terms, if anyone is going to do anything with it, it'll be on the basis I alluded to.

Personally, I'd rather the advanced stuff is still there, so the likes of BB can still extend it...

...and the likes of me can manage to glean a little bit more than I might otherwise about how things are actually working under the hood.

To contribute yet another terrible analogy to a thread already laden with them... the closest I get to motor mechanics these days is changing the washer fluid. I don't generally even change the oil myself.

But if I get a choice of a car whose bonnet opens up and one which doesn't, I'd generally pick the former...

...that preference maybe isn't entirely rational of me. But, I have it...

EDIT: Sorry re-reading your post Laurie, and Basicwiz's I suspect I misinterpreted...?

...so in that sense, yes, it would be better, I suspect if SM actually implemented the idea of an intermediate mat room, sure.

In terms of just abandoning the nodes underneath. I don't think they should do that...

...and I really do think BB's shader work should be encompassed into the necessary presets in any intermediate preset-type system too.

"Vue has a system of material settings, functions and profiles. But ALL of them you can actually look at. And when you apply them, you get a really good representation of what they'll look like. If you wanna call the functions presets, than so be it. But you can tweak every one. It's a graphical interface and it makes sense to most ppl (including me). The Poser nodes system, which will allow you to make garbage and doesn't give a really good preview, are not. Only if you understand everything can you really figure much out. And why should we have to connect 85 nodes of spaghetti? Can't we make a decent shader with just a few? Why spend an hour setting up the scene and then 5 hours setting up the materials? It just seems lopsided. I'm not picking on anyone. Just questioning the logic... Vue's math is hidden and it just shows you want you'll get and allows you to mix. That's what I've dreamed of for Poser."

This^
is the problem as I see it as well.

In fact I am going to publicly "back peddle" on my previously stated blanket opposition to "Node based writing Diagrams" for material creation.
and simply state I would never use POSER'S implementation of this approach

Compare it to Blender 2.5 or higher
( you know that free program)

Spare yourself four minutes and watch this random quickie tutorial
I found via google where the guy is creating some volumetric clouds with blender nodes,
not one mention of Math cosigns or any such techno-babble and a nice instantly updated preview of his results in the little window on the right
even the nodes&wires themselves are much ..."friendlier looking" for lack of a better description

BLENDER MATERIAL NODES

If posers mat room were even more like this, there would be less frustration for you guys IMHO

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

Also, the profiles that Vue has are easier to understand. Most ppl understand what a profile will do from a 2D program. And they're also very powerful and can fundamentally change the way a function looks and how it behaves when mixed with something else. I used to love goofing around in Vue's material settings. It was fun. Poser's material room makes me cry....lol.

Oh, and yes, Blender's nodes normally have only a few familiar settings that you need to tweak and IIRC, you can combine a bunch of nodes. Or at least I thought I saw someone doing that in a vid...lol. The problem with Blender's nodes isn't that it's vague what they do, but that there are SO flipping many of them....lol.

Laurie

Vue's preview is definitely excellent, I reckon...

...and the Blender mat room looks good... thanks Wolf.

I don't know what Blender has in terms of material presets, within that nodes system, for metals, glass etc, of course?

That's surely where the maths starts to come into it?

Poser's mat room obviously has some SSS presets embedded into its nodes now, for the physical properties of things like Skimmed Milk.

I guess having presets for the material properties of metals or glass or plastic, etc. in the appropriate nodes... the kinds of things for which all the math nodes are currently required, as I understand it... might be a logical progression, in due course?

I am going to suggest the node cult forum at runtimedna if you want to learn the material room to create your own materials.

Looking at existing materials is also a good way to learn some basics.

At the risk of sounding like a Vue commercial, but to illustrate the idea of a multi level interface.

Overview of Vue's three level material editing

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_studio/?page=10

The AdvancedGraph editor (level 3)

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_modules/?page=advancedgraph

Some features including:

"Control materials based on the properties of other objects

Advanced Python node for custom functions

Advanced SmartGraph input nodes: screen position, angle of incidence, distance to camera, distance on ray, depth in object, distance to object below, incident light angle, light direction, light color, reflected direction, etc."

IDK whether you can create fishscales but someone did create chainmail. At any rate, the point is the 'basic' editor is pretty similar to Poser and the AdvancedGraph editor lets power users go wild but the 'advanced' (not to be confused with AdvancedGraph) editor fits nicely between the two.

NB. you can get the AdvancedGraph module for $39 for the free Vue Pioneer or $99 Frontier (imports static Poser Content). I mention that only to try to forestall the 'yeah but Vue is a gazillion dollar application...' IDK whether it would be worthwhile for SM ti have an internediate .'module' It would make more sense to include it in the base and make the advanced editor optional/included in Pro as long as the advanced editor's output could be used by everyone. OK, bad idea :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

None of your links are working FYI

Cheers

My website

YouTube Channel

For those that want to argue that Vue is a gazillion dollar program, I say Vue had a damn nice material editing system when it still cost $189 bucks. I made a very believeable opal in Vue 4.

Laurie

runtimedna forums , the node cult would be where I would start looking.

*"One is pattern - often just dealt with (even by me) using a color map. But, making procedural patterns (for example, wood grain or scratches in painted wood) is a big deal, not easy at all. Goofing around snapping things together, you can come up with some fascinating patterns. But those are just happy accidents and it's like hitting random notes on a piano. Can you make one intentionally? Like fish scales in my avatar, for example? That's math and it's seriously hard. Most people can't do it, even after I explain how. And it's not physics so you can't even go look up what you need to do.

Two is what I used to call texture before I got into CG - bump or displacement shapes, turning a flat surface into something else. Since this sort of thing is usually based on noise, lots of people can stitch together useful noisy patterns. Little math is needed here, although if you're looking to produce something intentionally, it may be called for.*

Three is mediation of light - diffuse reflection, specular reflection, refraction, scatter, dispersion, ... this is where you really really just should rely on presets. Because this is serious math which you can look up, but the problem is it's physics. You have to first know how the world works. Then you have to come up with a way of reproducting that without simulating individual photons - you have to know and take advantage of the statistics of large numbers of photons. Then you have to translate that into a specification that a computer can deal with, which is all math.

This last category is where I really shine and where people get the greatest benefit from just using my shaders. There's not a lot of arguing about creativity here . Glass is glass, metal is metal. You can build it yourself, but you're going to end up with the same equations I already did, and I mostly got them out of physics books. There's not a lot to invent here and call your own."

*Loved this ^^ part. Simple explanations ftw.

I am: aka Velocity3d

Well, my question is then, at least for BB's last part...why isn't there a node called glass? Or metal?...I mean, if we'd all come up with the same node setup that is ;). That's what other programs do (including Vue). They have glass and metal already as a preset and then you build off of that. It sure beats having to build the whole node setup for glass and metal and THEN having to add to that. Anyone else see where I'm coming from? Sure, it might SOUND like cheating, but it really isn't if it's something we'd all arrive at. The noodles just aren't friendly at all ;). And for as relatively easy as the rest of the program is, it's out of balance. I mean, maybe only a small percentage of us rig, but we ALL have to enter the material room at some time or other.

Laurie

I have to agree that the problem, as has already been stated by others, is probably that the simple version of the material room is way too simple. It needs to permit more adjustments of the sort the typical user needs to make.

Plus a library of presets updated to the particular version of the software being used would be a very helpful.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Simple's too simple and advanced is too difficult..lol. No happy medium in Poser ;).

Laurie

Quote - Well, my question is then, at least for BB's last part...why isn't there a node called glass? Or metal?...I mean, if we'd all come up with the same node setup that is ;). That's what other programs do (including Vue). They have glass and metal already as a preset and then you build off of that. It sure beats having to build the whole node setup for glass and metal and THEN having to add to that. Anyone else see where I'm coming from? Sure, it might SOUND like cheating, but it really isn't if it's something we'd all arrive at. The noodles just aren't friendly at all ;). And for as relatively easy as the rest of the program is, it's out of balance. I mean, maybe only a small percentage of us rig, but we ALL have to enter the material room at some time or other.

Laurie

That was the point I was getting into last page... there is now a preset in the new SSS node for "Skimmed Milk", etc...

They've now added the proper scatter and fresnel blend nodes... both of which BB had previously had to come up with complex math workarounds for... as I understand it?

It's probably time to add some presets for other materials - like metal, glass, plastic etc. - into other relevant nodes?

That said, part of me suspects that BB would still end up publishing a better, complex math node version of whatever materials were made into presets, shortly after such presets were added

Still...

"I must have had a poor education as I only ever used sine.cosine and tangent to figure out whether the imaginary tree would fall on our house, how on earth it relates to colours and lights and materials I have no idea, but it would be nice to have some vague idea.

I can see where Khai is coming from, in one respect, i think and these aren't his words but mine.....Why do i need a degree in math to add a wood material to a particular model if i dont want to use a texture, or if i do want to use a texture why do i need a degree in math to make it look "professional".

Why did it have to become so complicated that we all feel like idiots becuase we aren't Stephen Hawkins IQ levels."

LMAO! I sooo feel you on this. NORMALLY - I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person. I read books on physics, (though I can't do the math myself personally, I can at least comprehend). I know who Garrett Lisi is. When Boson Higgs was recently discovered I actually knew how important that was.

But that all goes to the wayside the moment I open these forums. They have the magical ability to make me feel like a complete bumbling idiot in five minutes or less - usually.

As much as I appreciate BagginsBill, usually when he explains something I feel like he's trying to teach me to walk when I barely know how to hold up my head.

I decided recently that I wanted to understand what the math functions were in the materials room. Though I knew I would never understand how to apply them. I still wanted to at least know what the heck they stood for.

My childhood was complicated and through not much of my own choices I didn't make it past pre - algebra. But I stayed in Honors English so I'll hang my hat on that. Still my 15 year old son is a little bit of a math guru himself - going into Honors Algebra 2 in 9th grade. So I brought him in to see if he knew what those math funtions were. He rattled them all off the top of his head (mid summer mind you) and proceeded to create diagrams for me so that I could understand what cosign was.

If BB hadn't already made me feel like an imbecile, my 15 year old accomplished it in about 15 minutes. Through no fault of their own, of course.

I guess the point in this post is really that I relate #1 and then that there is some disconnect between those who comprehend and those that don't and I do imagine that there is a fair amount of people who just simply get tired of feeling stupid. I'm persistant and don't really care too much about what others think - so I guess I'm lucky in that way.

I am: aka Velocity3d

Just an observation...

"Glass is glass, metal is metal..."

No it ain't! Some fabulous shaders out there, but sometimes, in certain configurations, they don't work, you have to tweak and tweak and perhaps rewrite.

Sometimes you have to fake stuff to make it look real. Ever seen any Hitchcock?

Alas, I don't know enough about optics for the math to intimidate me.

I need to motivate myself to learn enough to be frightened.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Sorry about the links - the linkifier if screwing up for some reason C&P :-)

http:/www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_modules/?page=advancedgraph

Now here is the main problem IMO. If a system requires a guru to create anything beyond the basics then it really cripple the potential of an application at this level. Where would computers be today if all coding had to be done with assembly language or even C/C++? That's still preferable for a few things but look at what the semi-literate user can accomplish with macros if Office or Python. The gulf is pretty much always filled by functionality between MS Paint and Photoshop, Movie Maker and Avid etc.

Frankly, I don't know what the technical challenges are. Can you have a generic 'Liquid' material and then adjust color, thickness (viscosity), coagulation(?), suspended particles etc. and create anything from clotted blood to oil to skim milk? Again, I don't necessarily need the oil to match Quaker State 10w40 in a mass spec, just credible oil. Is that a preset - yes. Is it the same as a skim milk preset that requires me to adjust some arcane (to me) math to get buttermilk - no, not when I can intuitively bump up the thickness and add some yellow particles for butter and have something reasonable.

Keep the advanced stuff, let the gurus create and produce loaves and fishes for the masses. Some of the masses do want to fish for themselves as well though. I really don't buy the notion that you can't even catch a carp without first reading up on the evolution of the bony fishes and then oceanography and of course marine engineering, cause you're gonna need a bigger boat. I can use other applications (as poorly as I use Poser) - I've never believed that Poser should be the be all, end all. At the same time though somethign more alonhg the lines of Vue, or Carrara or C4D or even the argh, pre-MentalRay Max editor would enable/encourage more people to get more out of the program IMO.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

i think the solution is a combi approach, ezwood, ezmilk, ezpeazy, ezlight, ezdark, ezcome, ezgo :)

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) 6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5 64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

My freestuff

link via my artist page

Quote - Sorry about the links - the linkifier if screwing up for some reason C&P :-)

http:/www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_modules/?page=advancedgraph

Now here is the main problem IMO. If a system requires a guru to create anything beyond the basics then it really cripple the potential of an application at this level. Where would computers be today if all coding had to be done with assembly language or even C/C++? That's still preferable for a few things but look at what the semi-literate user can accomplish with macros if Office or Python. The gulf is pretty much always filled by functionality between MS Paint and Photoshop, Movie Maker and Avid etc.

Frankly, I don't know what the technical challenges are. Can you have a generic 'Liquid' material and then adjust color, thickness (viscosity), coagulation(?), suspended particles etc. and create anything from clotted blood to oil to skim milk? Again, I don't necessarily need the oil to match Quaker State 10w40 in a mass spec, just credible oil. Is that a preset - yes. Is it the same as a skim milk preset that requires me to adjust some arcane (to me) math to get buttermilk - no, not when I can intuitively bump up the thickness and add some yellow particles for butter and have something reasonable.

Keep the advanced stuff, let the gurus create and produce loaves and fishes for the masses. Some of the masses do want to fish for themselves as well though. I really don't buy the notion that you can't even catch a carp without first reading up on the evolution of the bony fishes and then oceanography and of course marine engineering, cause you're gonna need a bigger boat. I can use other applications (as poorly as I use Poser) - I've never believed that Poser should be the be all, end all. At the same time though somethign more alonhg the lines of Vue, or Carrara or C4D or even the argh, pre-MentalRay Max editor would enable/encourage more people to get more out of the program IMO.

That is what the presets are for. Click on a prop and click on a material - and bingo, you have a generic oil//water/whatever material on the prop.

Loads of presets materials are available - both freebies and from the market place. Physically correct and simple easy to modify ones.

If you are a normal user, you use those presets. If you are an advanced user, you modify the presets and if you are an expert, you create those presets.

I really don't see the problem

But a macro facility loading a set of connected nodes without disturbing the existing node set would indeed be very nice

Sounds like a thread in need of starting: "Here are all the shader presets for Poser."

Shaders presented by others are NOT the same as presets.

Laurie

What is the difference?

Because not only do you have to get permission for every single one you modify and wanna distribute, you STILL have NO idea how to make a decent shader. Truthfully, the Poser material room is a layman's nightmare. There, I've said it....lol. I use presets in other programs to start from...never the finished product.

Laurie

Of all the programs I've used: Vue, Blender, Bryce....the Poser material room is the most mystifying. Truth is, unless someone (yeah, BB) holds my hand, I can't do a damn thing with it. I really do hate it - A LOT...lol. And that's saying something. Bryce's is a pain in the rump too but still not nearly as bad as Poser's.

Laurie

Users don't distribute shaders, so this would only apply to content creators.

They also need to learn to model, texture and pose and need to create a decent presentation of their product. So there are lots of things which need to be learned.

I find the effort to create a decent texture much harder as creating a decent shader, so every one has their own strong and weak sides.

What Poser user NEEDS to model? LOL. It's a point and click program for most I'd guess. More reason to make the material room less idiotic ;). Most of us who use it don't do 3D outside of it. I create content. I don't understand one particle of it. I've tried. I've been trying since Poser 6.

Laurie

Quote - What Poser user NEEDS to model? LOL. It's a point and click program for most I'd guess. More reason to make the material room less idiotic ;). Most of use who use it don't to 3D outside of it.

Laurie

For those users we have the poiint anc click/ drag and drop in the material room with those presets (or 3rd party materials)

I don't see the difference

Then I can't make myself understood for you, tho I'm sure a lot REALLY get it ;) MODELING is easier than Poser's material room, which is kinda ridiculous when ya think about it...lol.

Laurie

I was referring to "Wat Poser NEEDS to model"

Well, I guess the folks using Poser the longest eventually get around to modeling....lol. But I bet the majority still really don't get the material room ;). It's ridiculously and unnecessarily difficult. When ONE person is the only one that runs the material room for the rest of us, that should tell ya something's seriously wrong.

Laurie

Quote - MODELING is easier than Poser's material room, which is kinda ridiculous when ya think about it...lol.

Laurie

Now THERE is a truly frightening concept!!!!!!!

Quote - > Quote - MODELING is easier than Poser's material room, which is kinda ridiculous when ya think about it...lol.

Laurie

Now THERE is a truly frightening concept!!!!!!!

It's twue...lol. Laurie

What I think people are saying wimvdb is that the process is complex enough to rob many of the ability to use it. You shouldn't have to be advanced to modify something. basic, e.g. you can use the volume control but to adjust trebel and base, ya need an EE.

It's a semantic quibble I suppose, but I wouldn't even especially call liquid, metal, skin etc. presets. They're really base materials. I'd call elephant skin or mermaid tears (and anything derived from or incorporating them) presets - but that's just terminology. Nothing's perfecr. Vue has a dozen or more water presets like 'channel water,' You can modify their color, transparency etc., but they're no controls like 'murky' or 'algae,' things that would be specific to water. With the proper scripting support, people could write plugins to cover all kinds of general or more specific materials. If someone wants to include a temperature variable in their water plugin so that dialing it down cause surface ice to start forming, great.

So, have a hierarchy starting with the base materials. You can have environmental water or beverages under liquids, and drill down to as specialized as anyone wants. Use understandable parameters. rough, dusty, stained, wet etc. If I have to guess what it does, it doesn't make the cut. The ability to easily link some parameters to external factors e.g. water gets less murky over time or the closer it ges to the camera etc. You can expose the constituent parts of a parameter e.g. twiddle the things that make up murkiness, but that should be an oprion, not the default.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Well the "learn the material room" argument sounds great, but my problem is I learn something one week and forget it the next.

I have a couple (IMHO) nice background shaders that I made up in the material room and understood what I was doing at the time, but if you where to ask me now how and what I did, even looking at the shader setup I would have no clue now as to what I did.

Lol.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

"...my problem is I learn something one week and forget it the next."

LOL, I remember reading the same tutorial to get a Poser figure textured in Max 3 - over and over because I could never remember how to do it. That may simple be brain density but I think it is a sign of an unintuitive or overly complicated process. And I'll stick to that eplanation :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I've actually gotten half way through reading a tutorial, before I realised I'd read it a couple of weeks before... possibly on more than one occasion... I forget now

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: tis a dying interest