PLEASE! Don;t use this as an excuse to bash either DAZ OR POSER!

As a poser merchant I am seriously interested in understanding the attraction of Genesis and it's clothing to Poser users. I can readily understand it's attraction in DS, with all of it;s many functions fully available and operational.. it really is a marvelous innovation. However, concidering the difficulty in exporting/importing the figure and it's clothing, and the fact that a great deal of the versatility that makes it so attractive in DAZ Studio is gone when imported into poser, I wonder exactly what about it makes so many people want to do so?

Is there some particular character shape or is it the clothing styles now available for it? Is it something that can be created for the number of figures that are built to work in poser and with poser's native features intact? Is it the shape of the base figure or a certain morph look?

**I'm serious about these questions, since an undersstanding may provide a direction for my own creations. SO PLEASE! If you are viewing this please don;t act negatively and have the thread locked. **

I decided to try it because...

--- For whatever reason, conforming clothing fits the male morph better around the shoulders, and most soft fabric conforming clothing for M4 looks bloody ridiculous around the shoulders. There isn't nearly enough dynamic clothing for M4, and I find most conformers don't convert well (if at all) to dynamic.

--- There's a lot more new male (or unisex) clothing for Genesis.

--- Genesis creature and anthro morphs are cool, and they do seem to work quite well in Poser.

I couldn't care nearly so much for V5 since V4, with all of her various fixes, looks pretty good these days and she already has a huge wardrobe.

ETA: The negatives I've noticed (I haven't tried with SR3 installed yet)...

--- Some areas of the figure, such as the calf (especially when morphed to be muscular) appear too low poly even when rendered.

--- Working with a figure that has every single Genesis morph I've purchased is a bit of a PITA.

--- Converting Genesis clothing is still a bit hit and miss. And I've found using Gen 4 clothing with Genesis in Poser to be kinda disastrous. I haven't tried WW, however.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

I can't answer the question personally for, as a Poser user, I am not attracted at all.

That said, maybe I am missing something after all ,so I hope the thread is taken seriously because I am intrigued to find out what the answer is.

The answer moriador has posted is a valid one I had not thought of so the thread is off to a good start.

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 - Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU . The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.

If I had enough time to play around with DAZ studio sufficiently to mess around with exporting Genesis, and if I knew for sure that I could export morphed 4th gen clothing which would fit Genesis in Poser (I know it converts in DAZ) so that I don't have to buy a whole new Poser wardrobe, I would want to play with Genesis for the following reasons:

Creature morphs are more extreme than in the 4th gen, apply to both genders, and are generally cool, and in DAZ the clothing will fit them.
I assume that it is easier to do drag queens using Genesis. Clothing converters don't do great jobs on F to M conversions.
Some of the new clothing models look really cool. Unfortuantely they rely on DAZ shading.

I'm a Poser user who has no interest in Genesis either. The whole concept of being able to go from a child to a troll to an adult to a goat isn't something I need. The fourth generation works perfect for what I do and nothing I have seen for Genesis has yet to make me want to make the switch.

I have thousands of dollars invested in the fourth generation and if for some reason merchants stopped making fourth generation content tomorrow I would still have enough content to keep me happy for probably the next 10 years. LOL

Quote - I'm a Poser user who has no interest in Genesis either. The whole concept of being able to go from a child to a troll to an adult to a goat isn't something I need. The fourth generation works perfect for what I do and nothing I have seen for Genesis has yet to make me want to make the switch.

I have thousands of dollars invested in the fourth generation and if for some reason merchants stopped making fourth generation content tomorrow I would still have enough content to keep me happy for probably the next 10 years. LOL

Yup. Same here.

nothing. lol

I am: aka Velocity3d

I think I may have posted in the wrong thread. ;)

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Please, before this gets out of hand, as I said it was a serious question. I'm really not looking for reasions NOT to use genesis. What I am looking for is the reasons why some people have for using it.

I do this to see if there are areas of interest we are overlooking in the POSER market.

So far I've heard:

Male or unisex clothing (agreed a poorly supported are compared to female clothing)
Creature and anthropomorphic morphs and support.

which, as a poser clothing creator I can appriciate the male clothing lack, and may try to work in that area, depending on just how the market works out.

I don;t do morphs, sadly, but I agree that there is an area for creatures, (personnally, I'd like to see more mythological and, don;t shoot me, D&D cratures, some more aliens would be nice as well), maybe some merchant out there will read this and keep it in mind.

I want to have as many choices as possible. Genesis has some cool creatures which I'd like to use. I am not really interested in M5 or V5 and most of the clothing is a rehash of what was available for the gen4 figures.

So I have experimented with genesis, bought morph sets and some clothing. And if I need a particular figure, I can now use it in Poser (with SR3). But as a replacement for the gen4 figures lots of things need to be become more streamlined. Now it is too much trouble to use it as a standard figure.

I think the figures look cool, I would quite like to try them. I can appreciate the general idea.

I am not going to install daz just to be able to import the figures. that's silly!

I can't understand why daz don't release a (reduced functionality) version for Poser.

It's not my problem.

Quote - So far I've heard:

Male or unisex clothing (agreed a poorly supported are compared to female clothing)

Creature and anthropomorphic morphs and support.

It's not just a lack of male clothing, although that's a big part of it. It's also lack of male clothing that looks, well, that looks like clothing, as opposed to some sort of fabric stretched over balloons. M4 has nasty shoulder joints and, as a result, almost all of his clothing has nasty (balloony) shoulder joints. He also has terrible knees, and much of his clothing has terrible (balloony) knees. More clothing for M4 wouldn't necessarily solve this problem. There's still a lot out there that I have never bought because it just doesn't look good to me. Genesis isn't perfect in this regard by any means, but it's enough of an improvement to make me want to investigate it.

There are probably solutions or hacks to deal with M4's issues. But if there are, they are not in wide enough use that I know about them. Morph brush can fix some things, but those balloons aren't really among them.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

What is it that attracts anybody to a new car, a new computer, a new stereo, a new entertainment center, or a new smart phone?

I think you have to step back and look at the whole ball of wax in the bigger picture of human behavior regrading people and what drives their buying decisions to buy something new, then just looking at clothes fit issues or shoulder issues.

some of the above posts cover my personal choices on what I use and why and I don't think that was the intent of the thread.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

shoulder's sort of like these?

Quite possibly, V4 and company are getting old and too familiar. A lot has happened in CG since she came on the scene. Perhaps people are looking for a new figure, with a more modern design.And Daz has been one of the leaders of figure design.

There was a lot of anticipation for V5, before people found it would only work in Daz 4.Then some people started running around screaming and yelling, while others tried crowbarring Genesis into Poser.

The following is not Daz bashing. I have Daz 4 and have been playing around with it. I find the Genesis concept interesting. I like in it's native state. But as others have said, there is a lot of work involved in the transfer, and I am not sure it is worth the effort. There are new figures on the market, and more on the way. Time will tell.

Nothing, I use only Poser figures, there is nothing you can't do with them.

Letterworks, those are a huge improvement over the usual Poser affair. The shape looks appropriate for a very heavy wool coat.

A regular suit jacket still wouldn't show a curve over the delts. Even a bodybuilder in a suit won't show off his delts at all unless his jacket is too small. Instead, he'll wear a jacket with very wide shoulders. But the cut will look the same as it would for a less muscled man.

Nevertheless, what you're showing is far better than just about anything I own. I'm just not capable of reproducing it in anything approaching a reasonable period of time.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

sorry,i dont use it either and i think(i could be wrong) a majority of poser users dont use genesis either,thus i think its a limited market for us poserites

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

For me, it is the flexibility and the scalability that really appeal to me. I am not just talking about scaling sizes (though that is nice as well) but the fact that I can do 200 morphs without thinking if I want to, rather than being constrained by what channels will be overwritten, etc. Plus I just hate the way that V4 was shaped, proportioned, etc.

Genesis is a well designed mesh that is well rigged. That interests me more than its scalability/morphability...

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I think the attraction is simply that its new and different and is well supported. V4 is a far more practical bet and anyone starting the hobby would start there. Many people however have been collecting for years and so V4 offers little novelty. Its been out for the last 5 years and do you want to play with it for the next 5 years? People buy Miki 2, Miki3, Anastasia, Antonia, and Michelle for similar reasons. The clothing support for these models is minimal (not too bad for Miki2) and I've had mixed to poor results from cross-dresser but still for a few renders it serves as something new. So the answer to your question is 'novelty'.

I for one did try it simply because it was new, but quickly lost interest. I get the feeling that a lot of Poser users who have tried it, have not had such wonderful results that they are that crazy about it. I know some Poser users do use it, but I think that they are in the minority.

"People who attempt define what art is or is not, are not artists"---Luminescence

Guys, not to sound ungratefull because I do appriciate your replies, but, my question isn;t aimed at reasons NOT to use Genesis in poser, those seem pretty much self-evident to me.

I am trying to understand what people LIKE about genesis that causes them to contimue trying to use it in poser when they know the results will be less that satisfactory.

I am asking this in an effort to understand the attractions and to see if there isn;t a way to use these attractions to improve POSER products. There must be smething about the genesis system that people want beyond just the scaling and morphs of clothing. Those features won't work in Poser any way. So if we can find out what it is and find ways to make it with poser natively operating figures then we've improved things for both groups, those that want whatever it is that attracts them to genesis and those that just want to use poser period.

If you donlt want to participate in finding the answers, please let's not be negative.

Moriador

are you saying that DS clothing has overcome the joint problems of V4? Or is it just the clothing being created for DS? I mean does the program self adjust better looking joints on every morph or is it the care of the people creating the clothing that is making it better?

I haven;t used DS enough to notice which is the case, so I'd be happy to hear from you.

Quote - Letterworks, those are a huge improvement over the usual Poser affair. The shape looks appropriate for a very heavy wool coat.

A regular suit jacket still wouldn't show a curve over the delts. Even a bodybuilder in a suit won't show off his delts at all unless his jacket is too small. Instead, he'll wear a jacket with very wide shoulders. But the cut will look the same as it would for a less muscled man.

Nevertheless, what you're showing is far better than just about anything I own. I'm just not capable of reproducing it in anything approaching a reasonable period of time.

For me, as a character creator, I initially liked:

Single mesh for morphing and manipulation. No longer an issue with Colorcurvature's scripts and GoZ in PP2012.
Weight mapped rig. I like PP2012's rigging better than DS4 because I can easily go between parametric and Weight mapping on a per joint basis. (Makes rig testing and modificaition easier.)
Autofitting of clothes to new morphs. This had promise, but I've begun to feel that it makes clothing too rubbery. Can be patially achieved with Morphing Clothes plus a little morph brush action in Poser.
Multiple SubD levels. This adds smoothing without adding density to mesh. Currently can't be done well in Poser.
Cross blending of forms. Because the vision for Genesis was to have a lot of shape "DNA", content developers are likely to respect existing shapes and test their shape blends with the core shapes. Poser figures have been a little more hit and miss when it comes to blending all shapes. Where Genesis will go along this line remains to be seen.

Despite these developments technically, Poser has matched a number of these in PP2012 product, so I no longer feel the need for Genesis, given that it largely trapped in DAZ studio. (I find Genesis ported to Poser as it currently stands very unsatisfying.)

-K

I don't see any other option for easily getting the fluid range of characters. I saw that with beginning FigureMixer in DS3. Genesis takes that to a new level. Yes there are things you can do with the Gen4 figures and various converters etc. but Genesis was designed from the ground up for that flexibility. It's the closest thing to being able to create your own custom figure without modeling. It's not quite virtual 'breeding' yet but who knows. I don't expect it to replace unique, quality figures, especially toons and such, but for general figure stuff, as an alternative to endless, poorly supported new figures ...

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Quote - Guys, not to sound ungratefull because I do appriciate your replies, but, my question isn;t aimed at reasons NOT to use Genesis in poser, those seem pretty much self-evident to me.

I am trying to understand what people LIKE about genesis that causes them to contimue trying to use it in poser when they know the results will be less that satisfactory.

I am asking this in an effort to understand the attractions and to see if there isn;t a way to use these attractions to improve POSER products. There must be smething about the genesis system that people want beyond just the scaling and morphs of clothing. Those features won't work in Poser any way. So if we can find out what it is and find ways to make it with poser natively operating figures then we've improved things for both groups, those that want whatever it is that attracts them to genesis and those that just want to use poser period.

If you donlt want to participate in finding the answers, please let's not be negative.

I am interested myself. I ask the question:

What problem does genesis solve? The only thing I have seen is that I can mix different figures. - From my perspective, this is genesis' ONLY redeeming quality.

I actually use Gen3 more than I use Gen4 - I prefer many meshes with many shapes & more importantly, heights. Both Daz and the vendors have made it clear that they are agressively uninterested in supporting any mesh other than a V4 sized character. - Which in real life is less than 5% of the population. Genesis is a potential way out of this problem for people that are either tired of cookie cutter figures or too cheap/lazy to use any alternate figures.

Genesis would give me a chance to use figures of differing heights and body shapes. I don't use V4 all that much because she is between 5'10" and 6'2" (depending on which scale you use - I go with the Poser5/DazStudio scale, so V4 is 5'10".) There is an SP4 figure that has about as much support as M4, that is not much.

Genesis would give me a chance to have a David 4 figure.

It would also allow me to have children of differing heights, which we currently lack. No one appears to have any interest in making kids.

As far as bringing what is great about genesis to Poser, all other problems that genesis "solves" have already been addressed and addressed better in Poser.

Figure development had really stagnated since the release of V4. Everyone settled for V4. Now, that is unnnecessary. Look at how many new meshes have rolled out since genesis. Antonia, Bella, Cynthia, Kez, Michelle, Mariko, and more are on the way.

Quote - I don't see any other option for easily getting the fluid range of characters. I saw that with beginning FigureMixer in DS3. Genesis takes that to a new level. Yes there are things you can do with the Gen4 figures and various converters etc. but Genesis was designed from the ground up for that flexibility. It's the closest thing to being able to create your own custom figure without modeling. It's not quite virtual 'breeding' yet but who knows. I don't expect it to replace unique, quality figures, especially toons and such, but for general figure stuff, as an alternative to endless, poorly supported new figures ...

I expect it to replace the majority of unique quality figures. Specially toons.

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/5686/

My Renderosity Store

Quote - Moriador

are you saying that DS clothing has overcome the joint problems of V4? Or is it just the clothing being created for DS? I mean does the program self adjust better looking joints on every morph or is it the care of the people creating the clothing that is making it better?

I haven;t used DS enough to notice which is the case, so I'd be happy to hear from you.

I have no idea. I don't use V5 or the Genesis female very much. As I said before, existing fixes to V4 have made her much more attractive: there's not that much reason to use V5.

As for the Genesis male, M5 is miles better than M4 because 1. no one's got around to detailed fixes for M4, so the nude M5 figure is, as yet, much better. 2. the clothing does appear to fit M5 better. Why? Beats me. I'm just the end user. I know almost nothing about what happens under the hood. But surely starting with a better figure has something to do with it.

That's not to say that any of it is perfect. Some M5 clothing still has bloated joints, and people consistently have trouble making good suits in all platforms. Some M5 clothing looks like girls' clothes stretched over a male body: not good. So there's a wide range in quality.

People have briefly touched on scaling. As far as I can tell, Genesis scaling morphs work well in Poser, and IF the clothing is working, it works when scaled too. So you can finally render a couple with a significant height difference.

Someone else pointed out in another thread that having an essentially unisex figure was probably the only way males were going to be widely supported. Looking at the Genesis clothing releases thus far, I'd have to agree. M5 has a much bigger wardrobe, relative to V5 than M4 relative to V4. It also fits him better, though still imperfectly. Not saying M4 can't be fitted just as well. Just that he generally isn't.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Take a look at all of the non DAZ figures and ask yourself, how many have been a success with lots of conforming content, morph packs and texture sets, and how many have failed due to little to no content/support.

With DAZ figures people know that there will be lots of content available for them, so some will even put up with coming to the darkside and using a figure that doesn't work so well, just because it's a DAZ figure.

So it's more a case of "need" rather than "like", and it will stay like that until there is a 3rd party figure that can hold it's own, content wise, against the V's & M's of this world.

Or you can all move over to the darkside permanantly dives for cover:tongue2:

Letterworks, would you have any interest in developing a Poser alternative to the Genesis Supersuit - complete with shaders and presets?

I just wanted to observe that the two good positive reasons for using Genesis--figure mixing and the consequent expansion of supported clothing, are reasons I have heard again and again.

Genesis makes wonderful monsters, too. :)

Somewhat OT, sorry:

The tux and tails M4 pictures on the previous page were NICE! Yahoo! Can we have that set? Now? Is it done yet?

A weight-mapped Poser M4 or other really decently modeled male would be lovely to have--and might take care of the shoulders thing. This doesn't have quite the sex appeal of the female figures--but I am very enheartened by all the new Poser figures coming out!

I rather like to model for M4 and such, but I have a day job and my production line is a trickle. ;^) Moreso this summer, with house renovations eating my free time. I'd love to know how to adjust rigged clothing to get really nice shoulders for a tailored jacket.

PS - I am mourning the loss of Luthbel's clothing models to Genesis, too. whine

Quote - PS - I am mourning the loss of Luthbel's clothing models to Genesis, too. whine

Yes, yes. And yes to your previous post, too. (Fortunately, we still have Xurge -- if he goes, the cries of bereavement will be immense.)

I want the tux Letterworks showed us, too. I think it can be pretty darned close to perfect with only tiny adjustments.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - PS - I am mourning the loss of Luthbel's clothing models to Genesis, too. whine

Yes, yes. And yes to your previous post, too. (Fortunately, we still have Xurge -- if he goes, the cries of bereavement will be long and loud.)

I want the tux Letterworks showed us, too. I think it can be pretty darned close to perfect with only tiny adjustments.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Sorry to say the tux isn;t ready for distributrion yet, but the good news is that is you see any non-major changes yuo think it needs you can still suggest them

I step into this very carefully as someone who uses both programs. I have to begin with why I use Poser and some strengths and weaknesses. I have become extremely familiar with how to create credible Poser light and I feel it has the most "painterly" of lighting. Also, I love its approach to animation. Though I am pretty catholic in where I buy, the figures I buy are mainly for characters created by Daz3D. In a lot of ways, Michael 5 is a great evolutionary step from Michael 4 if only because of the possiblites in scaling, better joints, but also because of the future of Michael 5. Content will only increase for the Genesis characters, and I think that I don't want to completely fall in a hole of propping up legacy figures. Being able to move between the two allows me to use my now vast library of Poser products with a current figure rather than a legacy figure. Even the people who despise Genesis (one should mention that there are two groups: those who just see no point in Genesis and those who resent that there is no Poser-ready Genesis) benefit because the figure is now partially driving the move by both companies to add features to their characters. I get to continue using my favorite vendors (Luthbel, Rawart, etc) without tying their hands in terms of what technologies they want to employ.

Quote - I step into this very carefully as someone who uses both programs. I have to begin with why I use Poser and some strengths and weaknesses. I have become extremely familiar with how to create credible Poser light and I feel it has the most "painterly" of lighting. Also, I love its approach to animation. Though I am pretty catholic in where I buy, the figures I buy are mainly for characters created by Daz3D. In a lot of ways, Michael 5 is a great evolutionary step from Michael 4 if only because of the possiblites in scaling, better joints, but also because of the future of Michael 5. Content will only increase for the Genesis characters, and I think that I don't want to completely fall in a hole of propping up legacy figures. Being able to move between the two allows me to use my now vast library of Poser products with a current figure rather than a legacy figure. Even the people who despise Genesis (one should mention that there are two groups: those who just see no point in Genesis and those who resent that there is no Poser-ready Genesis) benefit because the figure is now partially driving the move by both companies to add features to their characters. I get to continue using my favorite vendors (Luthbel, Rawart, etc) without tying their hands in terms of what technologies they want to employ.

One question regarding this: Are you using M5 in Poser as your main figure?

Ah, i tend to render in bursts so right now i use M5 and V5 in Daz Studio, mainly M4 in Poser, a little of noth in Carrara and am learning to use M5 in Poser. Alas Bryce doesn't run on my machine and I would use that too...

Quote - Ah, i tend to render in bursts so right now i use M5 and V5 in Daz Studio, mainly M4 in Poser, a little of noth in Carrara and am learning to use M5 in Poser. Alas Bryce doesn't run on my machine and I would use that too...

Ok, I was surprised, because before SR3 clothing and hair was a big problem (even some with Cliffs scripts). And even now, you still have to deal with poke through in poses and lack of poser support for materials. There is still a lot to do to make it as easy to use as the gen4 figures in Poser

I agree is was a big problem but not an impossible problem... I am horrible at using Wardrobe Wizard (I can fit clothes but they never look quite right) but a lot of the fun of 3d is that the "Make Art" button is 100% there so one s always tweeking. I remember trying to render Daz figures in Bryce in the old days and having to hand set everything.

I do want to say that we are in many ways in the best of times. We have two really good programs for rendering human figures at a bargain price with the old stand maturing into atruly pro level product with the promise of creating base characters of the same quality as its software and a newish product that promises some great evolutionary steps for where characters and can handle the bulk of legacy products. In a perfect world, I would love if V5 and M5 were a bit more compatible for both platforms and I could use EasySkin on both platforms but I am happy if both companies become stronger and succesful.

As a character creator I find it morphs much more easily with less distortion and there is less inherent in the geometry that interferes with what I am trying to do. To put it another way, V4 and the others have a little personality that is hard to write over with whatever you are trying to do, I find Genesis a much better blank canvas.

"Your work is to keep cranking the flywheel that turns the gears that spin the belt in the engine of belief that keeps you and your desk in midair."

Annie Dillard

Quote - As a character creator I find it morphs much more easily with less distortion and there is less inherent in the geometry that interferes with what I am trying to do. To put it another way, V4 and the others have a little personality that is hard to write over with whatever you are trying to do, I find Genesis a much better blank canvas.

THIS!!!! And with goZ it is a 1min task to create a basic morph for it. Thats if u have Zbrush.

My Renderosity Store

Personally, I'm using more the third generation DAZ figures than the fourth or the fifth. Unfortunately there is almost no clothing or expressions for the 3rd generation. So I was really excited and happy when Gen X came out. Now I can use my David3/M3/V3 on Genesis and put some decent expressions on them (not Genesis expressions, they are unnatural and AWFUL!!! I rather buy V4 expressions and use Gen X to transfer them on iconic David shapes). It's not perfect but better that than no expression at all for my David. I will never stop using David, even if there is no items for him. I like David so much, so I think I would have learnt myself to make cloth for him than never use him :). That's why I think Genesis is great. The iconic shapes of Genesis are absolutely fantastic...and without them I would never use DAZ. With Gen X, my David character is alive again!!! Clothing items for 4rth gen are great and I can clothe my David character with them. The Autofit of DAZ is so amazing! It's fast (really fast) and works pretty well. It still needs some work on shoes and long capes but the other programs (like Wardrobe, Clothconverter, Crossdresser...) have also problems with these kind of outfit.

The fact is that I buy V4 items for use on my 3rd generation people. I don't use V4 so much and I never use Genesis as it (without converting to iconic shapes). Why? Because I'm making some comics and it's really important for me to have my original characters. I can't suddenly use a new figure, just because it's bending better. I have to use the same characters I used from the beginning. Then if DAZ makes a new figure who allows me to use my original characters that's great! But if I can't use my character, it's pointless for me to use DAZ and I have to use Poser. That's why I'm a Poser user. I never really tried to use DAZ until this year. Personally, I am more familiar and prefer the Poser interface. So I think I would continue to use Poser if I could use all the great hair, expressions, textures, clothing, poses for M4/V4 on my 3rd generation people. The body of the figure is less important for me (I don't make nudes) but the facial morphs are really important. I can't make a new "David character" or use M4/M5 unstead of David3. It has to be the same character, the same David I used from the beginning, with the same texture (a person in real life can't just change skin texture or facial morphs). Of course I can use M4 or M5 (and I do that) to make other people and they look great! But they can never replace my original David character.

Forget my english :)

I was attracted because of the huge improvements in the appearance of bent limbs- much more natural. So I tried it out- never was please with RENDER quality. I participated in numerous discussions and did a lot of tinkering before I gave up. I joined in and was fanatical about beta testing for V4-WM. At the end-I was quite pleased with the improvements in bending. So I did not go back.

There are a few places where I think Daz has an advantage-most clearly seen in the morph following capability. Example: Mec4D created some facial (beards, etc) using Z-fibers in Zbrush. In Daz3d- they follow the morphs of the body-for instance-when the face changes expression-the beard moves along with the face-without having to create and manipulate specific beard morphs.

well as a content creator I find the following abilities of genesis/ds4 interesting, they open up a lot of possibilities

The ability to have rigging changes attached to a specific morph - specifically for example the Anubis legs. the positioning of animal styyle legs is very differrent from humanoid. SO being able to morph Genesis into critters, and have the rigging change is very intriguing

DS4's ability to magically kinda sorta make clothing fit any morph you ram in there. Okay, so with a bit of windage. But still, that feature is very nice, and a shame poser hasnt quite got there.

With the ability to have the clothing/skins fit any character based off genesis that opens up every single clothing item made for it to any male/femalechild/etc that is made for genesis. COnsidering the scarcity of items for certain characters, this is a ncie thing

Geografting - as used on the m5/v5 genitals and Rawns elebeast. This splices a new idnependantly rigged addon to the figure mesh with a (almost) seamless uvmap and so forth. Again for making aliens and critters with additional bits this is very nice and saves the painstaking transparancy map and fit issues

Uvmap swapping - being able to make a specific uvmap for a morph and swap it realtime. Poser can do this, if the maker knows how to set it up, but for a figure with the range of shape and rig changing as genesis this is very handy

Unfortunately .. all that being said .. I still find DS4 to be very unstable and difficult to create content in. Not to mention the shader setup stuff leaves a great deal to be desired.

Basically I like Genesis, but not the house it lives in.

Lyrra

this webinar should answer the future of genesis in poser question,
near the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4W5TUagTAc&

Their focus is on collada.

and more for zbrush in support of content creators.

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Quote - Basically I like Genesis, but not the house it lives in.

Lyrra

Exactly. Even as just an end user.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Well, I'm a Poser to DS convert. I jumped to DS around verson 3 because I got tired of Poser's clunky interface. DS was far faster and it had a modern interface, so I switched. So it's not like I switched to DS4 just for Genesis or anything. I doubt I would, either.

But to answer your question, I'm tempted to move from Gen4 to Genesis (and am slowly doing so) for several reasons:

Autofit. It gives me better results than WW or any of the other conversion software ever did, with far less work, in a much shorter time. This is huge for me. It turns my separate gen3 and gen4 libraries into one big Genesis library, with all the new stuff for Genesis on top.

(Side note: when are these conversion programs going to learn about feet? The way they mash shoes around the feet makes me think they're approaching the problem the wrong way. IMO it doesn't matter if footwear really fits the feet; what matters is that I can hide the feet on the figure they're conformed to and pose it and have it look good. They should give up on making the footwear fit well. And it's about time someone figured out how to do the "fall off" so heels aren't mangled - can I get an "amen" here?)

More morphs. I love me some morphs. The more the better. Again, it's like having all of V4's morphs, plus I get Genesis' morphs, too.
Better bends. I've heard that Genesis handles extreme bends better than Gen4. I have yet to test this, but if so it's a selling point.

But there are cons. I expect they'll be smoothed out over time, but as it stands now:

As someone else mentioned, there's no good way to handle what morphs are loaded with the figure. I've recently delved into making my own "forks" of Genesis but this is not straightforward.
Morph sorting sucks in DS4. Flat-out sucks. The Property Editor is a half-arsed klunker barely worth of the "beta" label. They actually charge people for this lemon! I don't know if it's going to be fixed for DS 4.5, but right now it's a real nightmare. It makes molasses look fast and crashes on a regular basis (it literally takes like 5 minutes to get it to load a figure on my computer, which isn't cutting edge by any means, but it's not a dinosaur, either; 8g of RAM and a 3ghz dual-core processor) This is pretty lame and I think it has to do with DAZ's stupid attitude toward morphs. They seem to think what is a stock feature in Poser (drag and drop, create your own folders, etc.) should be a black art open only to content creators. They're wrong, and need to stop letting Poser kick their butts on this issue. This is one of the only things that ever sends me back to Poser - organizing morph dials for Gen3 & 4 figures.

Really, DAZ needs to create a simple app that will let people manage morphs. They're very good on most things, and I'm frankly kinda shocked how cool some of their innovations have been over the last couple of years, but they've got their heads you-know-where on this morph organization thing.

They also need to overhaul the content library; make it run as its own process so we can browse the library while DS is wasting my time saving/loading, and give it "virtual" folders and organization like Advanced Library, but that's for another thread.

Quote - Well, I'm a Poser to DS convert. I jumped to DS around verson 3 because I got tired of Poser's clunky interface. DS was far faster and it had a modern interface, so I switched. So it's not like I switched to DS4 just for Genesis or anything. I doubt I would, either.

But to answer your question, I'm tempted to move from Gen4 to Genesis (and am slowly doing so) for several reasons:

Autofit. It gives me better results than WW or any of the other conversion software ever did, with far less work, in a much shorter time. This is huge for me. It turns my separate gen3 and gen4 libraries into one big Genesis library, with all the new stuff for Genesis on top.

(Side note: when are these conversion programs going to learn about feet? The way they mash shoes around the feet makes me think they're approaching the problem the wrong way. IMO it doesn't matter if footwear really fits the feet; what matters is that I can hide the feet on the figure they're conformed to and pose it and have it look good. They should give up on making the footwear fit well. And it's about time someone figured out how to do the "fall off" so heels aren't mangled - can I get an "amen" here?)

More morphs. I love me some morphs. The more the better. Again, it's like having all of V4's morphs, plus I get Genesis' morphs, too.

Better bends. I've heard that Genesis handles extreme bends better than Gen4. I have yet to test this, but if so it's a selling point.

But there are cons. I expect they'll be smoothed out over time, but as it stands now:

As someone else mentioned, there's no good way to handle what morphs are loaded with the figure. I've recently delved into making my own "forks" of Genesis but this is not straightforward.

Morph sorting sucks in DS4. Flat-out sucks. The Property Editor is a half-arsed klunker barely worth of the "beta" label. They actually charge people for this lemon! I don't know if it's going to be fixed for DS 4.5, but right now it's a real nightmare. It makes molasses look fast and crashes on a regular basis (it literally takes like 5 minutes to get it to load a figure on my computer, which isn't cutting edge by any means, but it's not a dinosaur, either; 8g of RAM and a 3ghz dual-core processor) This is pretty lame and I think it has to do with DAZ's stupid attitude toward morphs. They seem to think what is a stock feature in Poser (drag and drop, create your own folders, etc.) should be a black art open only to content creators. They're wrong, and need to stop letting Poser kick their butts on this issue. This is one of the only things that ever sends me back to Poser - organizing morph dials for Gen3 & 4 figures.

Really, DAZ needs to create a simple app that will let people manage morphs. They're very good on most things, and I'm frankly kinda shocked how cool some of their innovations have been over the last couple of years, but they've got their heads you-know-where on this morph organization thing.

They also need to overhaul the content library; make it run as its own process so we can browse the library while DS is wasting my time saving/loading, and give it "virtual" folders and organization like Advanced Library, but that's for another thread.

The question was why Poser users would want to use genesis in Poser. Not why they should switch to Studio. Apart from better bending and more morphs there is nothing in you post of benefit to Poser users

Quote - > Quote - Basically I like Genesis, but not the house it lives in.

Lyrra

Exactly. Even as just an end user.

Very well put. This is how I feel about it too I reckon.

My personal hope for Genesis / DS4 is that Daz will rewrite a version of it as a kind of advanced figure plugin for Poser... or rather bring out a stripped down version of DS4 that can work with or within Poser as a plug-in... somehow.

I've always thought, if they really were serious about Genesis becoming part of CG workflow, for higher end app users, even... e.g. of 3DS Max or Maya, etc, then that's how it should have been done... as a plug-in-able core that can be hooked into Poser, Cinema4d, Carrara, 3DS Max, or whatever, via an adaptable, host-app-specific middle layer.

I kind of wondered if the deeper API integration, that Paolo has negotiated to be put in place by SM, for the forthcoming Reality Studio 3 for Poser, may open up the playing field a little more here.

I appreciate this is almost certainly entirely wishful thinking... and gradual improvements in both the Daz supported CR2 Exporter, on the one side, in tandem with gradual enhancements by SM, to, I don't know, whatever might continue to limit Gen5 in Poser, such as subd or scaling... e.g. probably almost coincidental, convergence... is probably more likely the limit of where its going, relative to Genesis in Poser.

Course, where would us Poser-based Genesis fanciers be without some wishful thinking, eh?

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2855108

Something is bubbling away in the cauldron methinks...

Cheers

tbh, Genesis doesn't appeal to me at all, I prefer my women to be women and my men to be men, ;)

In my opinion, if the same amount of creation time went into making just one figure, male or female, surely it would be time better spent....but I know nothing.....

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Quote - tbh, Genesis doesn't appeal to me at all, I prefer my women to be women and my men to be men, ;)

In my opinion, if the same amount of creation time went into making just one figure, male or female, surely it would be time better spent....but I know nothing.....

Yeah, I do think that's a good point, Mystic.

Genesis offers a lot of convenience I guess... and does have some neat tricks.

I do think... and this is just my subjective opinion... that whilst a lot of standalone figures, e.g. Miki3, could be cited as having too much "personality" to be as widely used as she otherwise might, Genesis is, conversely, at risk of being too neutral.

But really that is just down to the quality and range of character morphs being produced I guess. Genesis is arguably more of a blank canvas, as has been stated.

But, from my viewpoint, I think that the "blank canvas" of Genesis should mean that character modellers need to put in more effort and probably, on average, develop greater character modelling skill, to get more diverse characters out of it. In principle, to my primitive oil painter's brain, a blank canvas means more work than a canvas with a "join the dots" or "paint by numbers" sort of outline already drawn on it, ready to follow (or indeed react against).

I think the potential danger of such base neutrality is more blandness, less range and diversity. Just my opinion. But, in my view there is already too much sameness in orbit around V4. Maybe this is down to market demand for slight tweaks of popular core looks though, rather than any other limitation...

...but this is possibly just so much subjective nonsence on my part.

In principle I will certainly still be getting hold of any and all good standalone figures that come out I reckon, e.g. Michelle (already got), Miki4, Tyler, Lucas... within reason... and likely working with them just as much... and I'm generally not averse to putting in effort with WW or whatever to do that.

But still, I'd be more than happy to welcome a possible "Genesis for Poser" to my runtime too and putting that through its paces, for what its worth...

Quote - PLEASE! Don;t use this as an excuse to bash either DAZ OR POSER!

As a poser merchant I am seriously interested in understanding the attraction of Genesis and it's clothing to Poser users. I can readily understand it's attraction in DS, with all of it;s many functions fully available and operational.. it really is a marvelous innovation. However, concidering the difficulty in exporting/importing the figure and it's clothing, and the fact that a great deal of the versatility that makes it so attractive in DAZ Studio is gone when imported into poser, I wonder exactly what about it makes so many people want to do so?

Is there some particular character shape or is it the clothing styles now available for it? Is it something that can be created for the number of figures that are built to work in poser and with poser's native features intact? Is it the shape of the base figure or a certain morph look?

**I'm serious about these questions, since an undersstanding may provide a direction for my own creations. SO PLEASE! If you are viewing this please don;t act negatively and have the thread locked. **

hi there Letterworks...my answer to your question is anatomy...M5 - V5 are more anatomically correct than m4-v4...and to be honest with you M4-V4 have so many wrongs as figures that i spent serious time to liquify and overpaint their "problems"...

im not an average user so anatomy plays a whole deal for me...so are uv texturing....

working in superheroes with m4 and m5 i saw a large difference (had to learn daz studio in 2 days in order to make their promos for the supersuit...)

if someone makes a morph for m4 that correct i will keep using him....

of course it won't be necessary cause i have heard so many good things about he upcoming figures from SM... ;)

Quote - PLEASE! Don;t use this as an excuse to bash either DAZ OR POSER!

As a poser merchant I am seriously interested in understanding the attraction of Genesis and it's clothing to Poser users. I can readily understand it's attraction in DS, with all of it;s many functions fully available and operational.. it really is a marvelous innovation. However, concidering the difficulty in exporting/importing the figure and it's clothing, and the fact that a great deal of the versatility that makes it so attractive in DAZ Studio is gone when imported into poser, I wonder exactly what about it makes so many people want to do so?

Is there some particular character shape or is it the clothing styles now available for it? Is it something that can be created for the number of figures that are built to work in poser and with poser's native features intact? Is it the shape of the base figure or a certain morph look?

**I'm serious about these questions, since an undersstanding may provide a direction for my own creations. SO PLEASE! If you are viewing this please don;t act negatively and have the thread locked. **

To answer your questions about Genesis and it's clothing. I love the styles/types of clothing. I'm not sure why, but there are things coming out now, different styles and everyday type clothing, that weren't available before.

Several items I would have purchased in a heartbeat come to mind... Stalker Girl pants & boots, Short Order Cook and the Surgical Gowns. These are just a few, they're not dynamic, just new ideas and outfits that no one produced prior to Genesis.

I use Poser and can't/won't, use DS4, so those clothing items are not available to me.

I have to admit, I also like the cool monsters that can be made with Genesis, lol.

Letterworks, I feel that a lot of what is driving this is simple inertia.

In the past, Daz was the go-to site for figures and clothing for a lot of people. The quality of alternate figures was variable (Apollo Maximus is a much better character for instance - the SM figures however, at that time, were not.), but support for any alternate figure was spotty at best.

Some people feel that having genesis in their runtimes would be easier solution than to use Wardrobe Wizard or Xdresser. All they are looking for is a 1-click solution.

I don't get the clothing issue - a large portion of genesis clothing appears to be a repeat of Gen4 clothing. I am now starting to see the same repeats with characters, shoes and hair. The examples that Cimaira listed are the only new items that I have seen. Everything else appears to be a repeat or a variation of what has come before.

I know that in my case, I am not interested in cheese and beefcake renders, NVIATWAS renders, or variations of fantasy renders - so the Daz store has been a bust for clothing for a while.

As for what I am looking for - contemporary clothing that could be worn in a business setting. Most of the contemporary clothing made available for V4 would get Vicky sent home to change.

I would like a good male business suit. For me the gold standard was the Casablanca Suit for M3 - I haven't seen a business suit to match it yet. Lots of movement morphs - lots of texture maps for it. M4 never got a business suit that was it's equal - which is what drove me to using Wardrobe Wizard - now that I have somewhat mastered it, clothing is available for all characters.

Well here's the thing... as I sift thru what's been said here I see 2 different "schools" of thought, so don;t take this as argumentative, just bare with me and see if I'm correct.

There appear to be a school of thought that wants the FUNCTIONS that are found in DAZ Studio. Things like dynamic subdivision, morph mixing, morph following etc. Well frankly this is beyond the scope of the average content creator to fix and should be taken up with some programmers (with Smith Micro?) and left out of thise discussion.

The second school are people that want some of the things that Genesis has, more male support (dlothing and characters), more and varied anatomical morphs for males and females, more creatures (morphs or stand-alone figures?) etc. This is the area of discussion I'm most interested in pursuing at this time, simce it;s something that content creators CAN help in. So I propose we stick to this area and nail down some of the specific areas and steps to reach those areas that can be done with Poser native figures (inluded are the earlier, non-DS only figures from DAZ).

Let;s discuss where Poser usable figures can be improved

Let;s didcuss what clothing might be wanted (keep in mind that there needs to be a viable market for this clothing type, if it;s not going to provide a profit it;s likely not to be made)

Let;s discuss what type of creatures people would like to see made (again keep in mind that Content Creations is driven by sales).

Perhaps it would be a good idea to also include some ideas on how much we would be inclined to PAY for support in these areas, what is an acceptable price for non-beauty queen/king figures, what would you pay for non pinup style clothing styles, and what price point would you concider reasonable for a modeled. rigged and textured non-human figure? Again, program FEATURES that aren;t already included in Poser should be dirrected else where.

I not sure if you are going to get swamped with replies for things that would only sell in small numbers but then I guess if we don't highligght what is wanted we won't know the numbers.

Most of my renders are in the Sci-Fi field and so for me I would be interested in any futuristic clothing. I know many will say there are lots already but I would be interested in something stylish and just not another twist on slut wear. Things such as the Ray Suit, Complicated Eve and Liquid Halo spring to mind.

Next choice would be some good fantasy outfits again more with the idea of it being fuctional. I see so many so-say warrior outfits that leave large portions of the body with no protection at all. Fine for pin-up work but on a real battlefield they would be dead in minute, if not from enemy action then it would be from exposure.

As to price for me $25- $35 if the outfit was good or was a fantasy outfit that could double for a Sci-Fi outfit with a change of tectures.

Personally I'd really like to see more historically accurate period clothing.

Sets along these lines are good. Renapd's Napoleonic sets are excellent I think, for example.

Some more First World War military, medical staff and civilian clothing would be useful.

Some more 1940s, 50s and 60s everyday civilian clothing would be great.

Sets that have clothes for the whole family, e.g. V4, M4 and K4, would be fantastic.

Period sets that have outfits for role stereotypes would be great; e.g. 1950s Policeman, Banker, Housewife, Workman, Doctor, Nurse, Schoolteacher.

I'd imagine a lot of this variation could be achieved with morphs and mats for a core set of cleverly constructed clothing figures perhaps?

Just throwing some ideas into the mix here... perhaps others will agree on some of them, in which case it would likely be worth someone's time to make these for the market I guess?

Overall, quality and attention to detail is all important really, I'd say, for these sorts of items.

They may well just not be worth a commercial vendor's time to undertake?

On the other hand they may well be, but just on the basis of paying a smaller dividend over a longer timeframe?

Cheers

I look in my runtime and I see that, thanks to Xurge and Luthbel, Mike is amply supplied with quality fantasy and sci fi gear.

He's missing a lot of modern civilian stuff, though, fortunately, for men, there doesn't need to be nearly as much variation in style as in color, texture, and pattern. The same short sleeved shirt can be a casual Hawaiian shirt or a policeman's uniform.

Me, for modern stuff, I want a working Mike. A doctor, a fireman, a policeman, an airline pilot, delivery boy, chef... you name it. But it seems that one or two outfits could be textured and perhaps morphed to cover a very wide variety of occupations. Accessories could provide the details. And I'll admit right now, my interests may be a little more than mildly salacious: if the outfits had a few of the standard pinup type open/tug morphs, it would be a desirable bonus.

Some of this stuff is already in the Poser marketplace. But for the most part it has those funky joints.

A set of magnets to improve those funky joints on existing clothing... Hmm. I could really go for that.

I think, though, that there's a problem with accepting our word for what we want and what we'd pay for before we've seen the finished products.

I've seen a few creators complaining in the forums that they made what people asked for and didn't see the sales materialize. There are maybe a couple of reasons for that. 1. It's way easier to say you'll spend money you don't have than to actually do it, and 2. Sometimes the finished product isn't quite what you expected. Not sure how you can deal with that. It can't be easy.

PoserPro 2014, PS CS5.5 Ext, Nikon D300. Win 8, i7-4770 @ 3.4 GHz, AMD Radeon 8570, 12 GB RAM.

Quote - .....

Most of my renders are in the Sci-Fi field and so for me I would be interested in any futuristic clothing. I know many will say there are lots already but I would be interested in something stylish and just not another twist on slut wear. Things such as the Ray Suit, Complicated Eve and Liquid Halo spring to mind.

Next choice would be some good fantasy outfits again more with the idea of it being fuctional. I see so many so-say warrior outfits that leave large portions of the body with no protection at all. Fine for pin-up work but on a real battlefield they would be dead in minute, if not from enemy action then it would be from exposure.

.......

Pretty much the same as this. And preferably lots of it for GNDAnatasia!

And I want Swidhelm to make some more 15th century armour please! :)

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: A SERIOUS QUESTION, what is it that attracts POSER users to Genesis and it's pro