I'm trying to do satin in Poser Pro 2012 but don't have a clue how to set it up. The image is a satin I did for Poser 8. Looked great in 8, looks lackluster in Pro 2012. Anyone got any ideas what I should do with this? I realize it probably needs a fresnel blend, but where? How? I'm not a Matmatic user and likely never will be, so keep that in mind please...lol.

Thanks ;).

Laurie

See? Blah. It just doesn't have that hot shininess/metallic look it had in Poser 8.

Laurie "Clueless"

I guess I should mention that I'm using one infinite light with the Envirosphere.

I have satin shaders about to go in the market place, as part of the next furniture prop.

I'm guessing, however, that's not the answer you want?

Tell me more. Is this for personal use? For a product? For a freebie?

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Freebie, but it's helpful for me to create one just in case I do need one for a commercial project.

The only thing I can assume is that I'm gonna need two speculars again. Where? Ya got me.

While I appreciate your talents and your satin looks great, I'm not about to buy every single kind of shader I'll ever need. Not when I should be able to make one.

sigh Nevermind.

Laurie

Hang on I didn't say I wouldn't help - just wanted to know the target. You OK using P9/PP2012 features?

You remember the basic setup I gave you a couple weeks ago, the Fresnel_Blend'ing a diffuse, a blinn, and a reflect?

Use the Fresnel_Blend at IOR 16.

Set the Reflect softness to 3.

Use the color you want (your diffuse color) also where the reflect+blinn is going. If it's a dark color, try desaturating and lightening it first.

I use Bias(HSV(yourColor, 1, 0, 1), 1.2) * yourColor for the specular+reflection color.

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Well, there were two examples. The fresnel blend was coming out of the alt diffuse and then the reflect and blinn were attached to that and then there was one where reflect was connected to reflect, blinn to alt specular and then a diffuse color in the main poser node. So I'm sort of confuzzled ;)

Laurie

The Poser surface is a giant Color_Math:Add node with some other nodes built-in, like Diffuse and Specular.

Whether you use the built-in surface adder and built-in Diffuse or you use an explicitly created external Diffuse, and whether you use multiple Alternate_... inputs or you manually Color_Math:Add them does not change the equation.

But - I understand you don't want to know how shaders are built.

I'll assemble a simple satin and screen shot it.

Just a sec.

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No, I DO want to understand. I just don't understand currently, that's all ;)

I'm actually getting somewhere with this shader tho ;).

Laurie

Oh - I just noticed you mentioned Poser 8 versus PP2012, the shader produces a very different outcome. Are you now rendering with linear workflow (render GC) ?

This is a shader that is strongly affected by linear versus non-linear color space. The parameters end up having a very different influence bewteen the two. It's one of the reasons my shaders are 80 nodes instead of 8 - having to build into it the ability to detect linear workflow, and if it's not active, to do linear itself.

Are you looking for a single shader that produces the same outcome in both, as my shaders do?

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Yeah, I'm using GC. I've been using it since I've had Poser Pro 2012. And yes, I'd like the shader to look good in both. Does look great in GC now at least since I've used ur advice and set it up like you suggested.

GC totally sucked the colors out of my Poser 8 shader I guess ;).

Laurie

I set this up all off the main Poser surface node. Looks alright. Looks better than before anyway ;) Shadows a bit different under the ruffle tho, but I think that's just the reflected darkened underside.

Laurie

Yes that's about right.

You can do this without reflection as well, but then people have to use lights.

I insist on as much realism as possible, so for me the most important thing is the blurred reflection, not the blinn.

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Good :). I'll run with this then....lol. Thanks for the help BB. Always. I just don't have the head for math and all that like you do. I struggle.

Thanks again!!

Laurie

Here's the simplest satin I can make. Its only advantage is how few nodes it has.

It has many disadvantages. It won't look at all the same with/without GC. To change color you have to edit the two colors in the Blender. The first is the diffuse color, the second is the reflection color. The second color needs to be related to the first in a specific way, but since I'm going for fewest nodes, we leave that to the "artist", instead of math. Users also need to know how to adjust the quality to get more/less of the grainy effect.

The reason I did not use the Fresnel_Blend alone, but rather used a Fresnel_Blend running into an ordinary Blender, is because the Fresnel_Blend has no reflection value (brightness) control. The .6 in the Blending value is the maximum reflectivity in this shader. You can raise or lower that for more/less shine.

My full shader has built-in auto GC (incoming and outgoing), a single color control, a single blur control, and a single shine control away from the node spaghetti.

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Results of the simple satin.

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That looks like pretty nice silky tho ;). Maybe like a polished challis/rayon if one added a bit more noise.

Laurie

Quote - ... I insist on as much realism as possible, so for me the most important thing is the blurred reflection, not the blinn.

See, I'm the opposite ;). I'm not concerned so much with the physical accuracy as I am with how close it looks to the real thing to my eye...lol. Sometimes they amount to the same thing, but sometimes they don't. Poser has its idiosyncrasies. What can I say ;). Thanks again!!

Laurie

What I meant was more than half the lighting/shine should be coming from the environment, and without the reflect node, that will entirely be missing.

Interpret any way you want (as an artist) but if you're outside, I better see sky in that satin.

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Was just gonna turn the sphere back on and rerender...lol

Laurie

Example. Red satin, just Blinn, no Reflect.

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Now Blinn+Reflect.

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By the way, it's important that you understand something here.

I DO NOT KNOW THE MATH OF SATIN

I'm doing this using my "artistic eye" - same as you.

What my eye tells me, whether or not my math-brain has anything to say about it, is that reflections matter a lot here.

The more something behaves like a metal, the more important are the reflections.

I don't know the physics of satin - I don't know why it behaves like a metal - but it does.

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Well, the satin I made, it relects the color of the sky somewhat (not vividly) but not clouds or other objects really. Too far away I guess. It does reflect things up close, such as the underside of the ruffle. Satin does act like that. It's not a true metallic. (grandmother was a seamstress and I've been around a lot of satin in my life). If anything, it's more like a pearl than a metallic. Just has a similar "sheen" if you like. More like the sheen of velvet than the sheen of something like a brushed metal.

Laurie

Here I've included a pic. I wanted to find one where the satin was truly outside rather than a professional image that has most likely just an outdoor background. Here, the satin skirt is barely reflecting the man's suit...more like it's just refecting the light being blocked rather than the color or the object (not sure how to explain it). It will however reflect the color of an object, but only if it's very, very close. The sky just gives a whitish reflection. But, being raised by my grandmother who was a seamstress and being around satin all my life, and even tho it LOOKS rather metallic, there's more specular going on than reflections if that makes any sense. ;).

I realize the sunlight is very diffuse in this image rather than bright and hot, but that just makes the specular from the sky even more white than it is here. Of course, I know nothing about the math of all that ;).

Laurie

Here, even tho the blue cloth is very close to the green, the green satin is only reflecting the shadow with very little color. It is absorbing a bit of blue from the sky at the bottom but very little (it's subtle). My point is you had it pretty darn close with what you told me to do the first time :). A lot of it depends on the color of the shader too - for instance, even tho it's got the same settings, the lighter pink satin is reflecting a lot more of the sky color than the red.

Laurie

These are picking up a lot of the sky color :)

Ok, done now...lol. Appreciate the help! :)

Laurie

There ya go. That looks good to me.

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Nice

Those shoes are looking great Laurie.

Same goes for the bed BB.

:biggrin:

LaurieA,

May I use your Poser 8 satin shader?

Sure. I'm gonna throw some of those shaders in with the shoes freebie anyway ;).

Laurie

i luv your tag line Laurie "Never go to bed angry - stay awake and plot your revenge."

♥ My Gallery Albums ♥ My YT ♥ Party in the CarrarArtists Forum ♪♪♪ 10 years of Carrara forum ♥ My FreeStuff

Quote - Sure. I'm gonna throw some of those shaders in with the shoes freebie anyway ;).

Laurie

Cool. I've been using your gem shaders quite a lot. Used the gold shader from that pack for Ninja Doris' earrings... and another one for the frame of her glasses, in fact. Just realised I ommitted the credit too! I'll get right on it

Quote - > Quote - Sure. I'm gonna throw some of those shaders in with the shoes freebie anyway ;).

Laurie

Cool. I've been using your gem shaders quite a lot. Used the gold shader from that pack for Ninja Doris' earrings... and another one for the frame of her glasses, in fact. Just realised I ommitted the credit too! I'll get right on it

I never cared about that stuff. The only reason I would want any credit at all would be that it makes it easier to find images done with stuff I made, which can be fun ;). But really tho, I never require that. Use as ya please. ;)

Laurie

Ah well, nonetheless, I've added a mention now

I like to try and remember and give credit where it's due... and I appreciate it when others do it because it helps me find cool stuff they've used apart from anything else... and I guess its the whole implicitly collaborative nature of this CG thing that, in part, I like so much too

I know what ya mean. I give credit myself in an image, for the same reasons ;).

Laurie

Quote - You remember the basic setup I gave you a couple weeks ago, the Fresnel_Blend'ing a diffuse, a blinn, and a reflect?

Could you please point me to that discussion? Even if the setup is the same or similar then what's already in this thread I'd like to learn from the correspondig discussion if possible...

Quote - > Quote - You remember the basic setup I gave you a couple weeks ago, the Fresnel_Blend'ing a diffuse, a blinn, and a reflect?

Could you please point me to that discussion? Even if the setup is the same or similar then what's already in this thread I'd like to learn from the correspondig discussion if possible...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3956203&ebot_calc_page#message_3956203

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Thanks!

The Bedroom set is killer looking BB. Perfect to add to all the furniture you and DLM have released. If it's not to late add a dynamic set of bed clothes.

After standing all day in a classic T-Pose the characters I use like to have a little fun after hours under the sheets so to speak :blink:

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - The Bedroom set is killer looking BB. Perfect to add to all the furniture you and DLM have released. If it's not to late add a dynamic set of bed clothes.

After standing all day in a classic T-Pose the characters I use like to have a little fun after hours under the sheets so to speak :blink:

Dynamic sheet, comforter, and pillows already included. It comes with several already in various arrangements, or you hide them and sim your own with people under/over etc.

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Quote - > Quote - The Bedroom set is killer looking BB. Perfect to add to all the furniture you and DLM have released. If it's not to late add a dynamic set of bed clothes.

After standing all day in a classic T-Pose the characters I use like to have a little fun after hours under the sheets so to speak :blink:

Dynamic sheet, comforter, and pillows already included. It comes with several already in various arrangements, or you hide them and sim your own with people under/over etc.

thanks a ton. Going to be a killer set. My debt card is sitting waiting and ready to go.:scared:

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Beautiful bed, dynamic sheets, gorgeous satin...yep, that's a keeper! :D Will other fabrics be included as well?

A couple.

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I'm almost ready to release the new BBGlossy shaders.

Everything on this car, except glass, is done with it.

This render was done with no lights, just EnvSphere, and took 26 minutes.

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Candy paints are just about ready, too.

I've been refining these for weeks. The tiniest details have consumed a ton of time.

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Looking splendid. Can't wait BB :thumbupboth:

Waitin' for those shoes too Laurie, by the way I have plans for them already... he he.

I'm packing em up today. LOL. Took longer than I thought :P

Laurie

Amazing, BB!

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For those of us coming in late to the game..

PLEASE. "that other thread about satin?" Where? And GEM SHADERS? Just last night I spend an ungodly amount of time on a pair of earrings where I REALLY needed some gem shaders.. But.. Where?

(oh and a bonus question: Who's this Angela you've made all those freebies for, LaurieA?)

Quote - For those of us coming in late to the game..

PLEASE. "that other thread about satin?" Where? And GEM SHADERS? Just last night I spend an ungodly amount of time on a pair of earrings where I REALLY needed some gem shaders.. But.. Where?

(oh and a bonus question: Who's this Angela you've made all those freebies for, LaurieA?)

LOL...wow...lots of questions ;).

What other thread about satin? I'm not aware of another, of course that means nothing. I miss a lot (and forget a lot). LOL

As for gem shaders...I have some on my website (look down at my sig) but they're in the V4 Rings freebie. Made in PP12 tho, not PP14.

Angela is a free figure by Mankahoo (ali here at Rendo). Her morphs are extra tho, but she has some great expressions in the free base :). At ShareCG here...

If you download the Ring freebie with the gem shaders, use the shaders, modify them...do what you want with them. Mostly they were just practice for me...some of them aren't so awesome, but there's a few "gems" so to speak. LOL.

Laurie

Quote -
What other thread about satin? I'm not aware of another, of course that means nothing. I miss a lot (and forget a lot). LOL

Well it might not have been solely on satin, but the one BB was referring to.. something he told you.. I'm always keen to learn more about shaders...

*And thanks for the pointer to the rings. I've signed up there now :D

I would like to mention something else:

I had a lot of trouble with shaders I had created in Poser 8 when I transferred to Poser Pro 2012. Especially a velvet that looked horrible!

It might be worth having a look at your Gamma settings when rendering. The default Gamma setting in Poser PRO 2012 is something like 2.20. But to get the same results as you had in Poser 8 you will need to set it either to 1.00 or OFF.

This can be an issue when making materials for sale and wanting them to be backwards compatible.

Also, I ran a bunch of tests as I dicovered that Gamma affects displacements maps (which I use a lot)

Have a look at this for what happens to displacement when changing Gamma values:

Gamma Tests

As you can see, Displacement maps increase in strength when lowering the Gamma values and vice versa. This tends to be part of the reason why Poser 8 textures can look flat in Poser PRO.

Frequency Gallery | Frequency Store

Eh, I just chucked the P8 materials and started fresh, setting them up properly for PP12 ;).

Laurie

@ Frequency

Transparant, displacement and bump maps have to stay at Gamma 1.

In short:

Black and White maps that "drive" a node have to stay at Gamma 1 when you load the textures.

Color maps need Gamma at 2.2 (or select render gamma when loading)

And render with IDL and GC at 2.2 on.

Happy Posering

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!

Hi vilters!

So I guess I need use the Custom Gamma Value in the Texture Manager that pops up when loading an image map, in order to force those maps to stay at 1.0?

Thanks for clearing that up!

I am thinking that probably makes the shaders a lot less different between P8 and PRO? Perhaps something that should be updated on older products when one has time then...

Frequency Gallery | Frequency Store

Quote - Hi vilters!

So I guess I need use the Custom Gamma Value in the Texture Manager that pops up when loading an image map, in order to force those maps to stay at 1.0?

Technically, the word "need" is incorrect. You need to ensure that a gamma of 1.0 is applied, but you do not need to do it via the texture manager.

There are a couple scripts that come with Poser that will do it for your whole scene, and also SnarlyGribbly's scene fixer - one click solution to this and a dozen other things you're supposed to be doing but you don't know it.

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Thanks bagginsbill!

Now I am worrying about all those things I'm supposed to be doing... ;)

I'm definitely interested in more info on this - do you have a link to where I can download/buy that scene fixer script?

Frequency Gallery | Frequency Store

Here's the link to all of Snarly's great scripts. SceneFixer is halfway down.

http://snarlygribbly.org/3d/forum/

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Thank you! :D

Frequency Gallery | Frequency Store

All of Snarly's scripts are worth having ;).

Laurie

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Satin sigh

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Satin *sigh*

Subject: Satin sigh